Conjecture: "R2-D2 had Force Powers" (Discuss, Debate)

[garygnu]

It's been kinda boring around here, so there's you topic for today.

[cochrane]

Well, I'd concede Artoo has the Force if it weren't for that danged Phantom Menace! Can a non-organic being have midichlorians? Or should we discount Ep. 1-3 and just go by 4-6?

[Whack-a-Mole]

Well, if we go with the horrendous addition of Mitichlorians to the Star Wars universe then there is no way R2 could have force powers.

I was always kind of unsure of robots' status in the Star Wars universe. On the one hand they are dealt with like any other mechanical device and no one cares much. So your toaster got blasted...who cares? On the other the characters occasionally express a lot of concern for their robot companions.

Either way though no force for the robots. R2 was just wired particularly well.

[Zebra]

He does seem very lucky and Obi Wan doesn't believe in 'luck'.

But I don't think he ever sort of 'predicts' what is coming. He just responds to what's happening.

Plus, he didn't vaporize when hit in ANH.

So, I don't see it has having force powers.

[garygnu]

The exact nature of those stupid mitochlorians wasn't explained very well.
The Force is first described as an energy field created by all living things, yet non-organic things can still be mainpulated with it. R2, the X-Wing, and many lightsabers were all moved about using the Force.
R2 could possibly be able to manipulate the Force without having command and control, just enough to increase his luck.

[Bosstone]

I think they're treated more like cars than small appliances, Whack-a-Mole. There's more than a few people who treat their car like it's a member of the family and take pride in caring for it, while lots of people just use their car as a conveyance and don't give it much thought beyond that.

In one of the books that takes place after the original movies, somewhere in the Zahn trilogy, Luke mentions that ever since R2 came to him, he's never performed a memory wipe, which is supposedly routine for droids. Because of this, R2 has a much greater bank of available experiences to draw on and thus is highly perceptive, more than one would expect an astromech droid to be. This doesn't answer the question of what happened before Luke got R2, and isn't an answer from Lucas, of course.

I strongly doubt it's a Force-sensitive thing. If he's smarter than most astromech droids, it's possible all Naboolean droids are like that, and we just don't see it because the only Nabooboo droids we see other than R2 were blown away in Ep 1. It's entirely possible that had the ship's position been a meter to the left, R2 would've been vaporized and C-3PO's life partner would be R3-J9 or some such.

It's possible he was custom-upgraded by a mechanic, or there's a 'defect' in his circuitry that allows him to respond to situations with more insight than a normal AI, or any one of a number of mechanical/electronic explanations. It's also hinted at and possibly explicitly stated in some of the books that Force-sensitive mechanics also make higher quality creations, and that may have had a part in it, though no sensitivity would've been imparted to R2 himself.

[Elendil's Heir]

Say what you will about those $&%^#(@! midichlorians, R2D2 just doesn't have Force powers. No droid does, as far as we know. If Artoo did, he (it?) could have better protected himself against those pesky Jawa scavengers. Hell, he could have beeped, "We're not the droids you're looking for" to those stormtroopers in Mos Eisley. Plus, Luke and Yoda would have sensed something in the droid when Artoo was poking around Dagobah.

[RTFirefly]

Lucas wasn't just a royalist (IMHO, Return of the Jedi should be scrapped along with Episodes 1-3), but was also a carbon-based chauvinist. R2 kept his cool no matter what. When whichever of Obi-Wan or Yoda said, "No, there is another," that other should damned well have been R2D2, not Princess Leia.

[garygnu]

I doubt that it's canon, but in reading the first edition of the Star Wars Role Playing Game, I remember replacement, mechanical body parts increase Dark Side Force sensetivity/power. It could be that the Force's interaction with mechanical things is not fully and properly known or percievable to Jedi.

There certainly could be many things about the Force that the Jedi have lumped all together under the Dark Side label and stopped there, not realizing that this little astromech droid has been saving the galaxy's ass with it.

The Zahn trilogy introduces anti-Force bubbles created by creatures on a Jedi-ignored planet, along with predators that hunt using the Force on that same planet. The Jedi of old failed to even investigate the phemonemon, choosing to ignore it completely. This could be similar.

[pinkfreud]

If R2-D2 had it, would it be called the 4ce?

[Bobotheoptimist]

I doubt that it's canon, but in reading the first edition of the Star Wars Role Playing Game, I remember replacement, mechanical body parts increase Dark Side Force sensetivity/power. It could be that the Force's interaction with mechanical things is not fully and properly known or percievable to Jedi.

There certainly could be many things about the Force that the Jedi have lumped all together under the Dark Side label and stopped there, not realizing that this little astromech droid has been saving the galaxy's ass with it.

The Zahn trilogy introduces anti-Force bubbles created by creatures on a Jedi-ignored planet, along with predators that hunt using the Force on that same planet. The Jedi of old failed to even investigate the phemonemon, choosing to ignore it completely. This could be similar.That's the coolest (or nerdiest) thing I've read all day, thanks! I'm in San Jose next month, maybe I can buy you a beer.

[Voyager]

In one of the books that takes place after the original movies, somewhere in the Zahn trilogy, Luke mentions that ever since R2 came to him, he's never performed a memory wipe, which is supposedly routine for droids. Because of this, R2 has a much greater bank of available experiences to draw on and thus is highly perceptive, more than one would expect an astromech droid to be. This doesn't answer the question of what happened before Luke got R2, and isn't an answer from Lucas, of course.

I remember that also. Did R2 get a memory wipe after RotS? C3P0 did, but R2 claimed to remember being owned by Obi-wan, which he was in a sense before being parked after Padme's death.

It's possible he was custom-upgraded by a mechanic, or there's a 'defect' in his circuitry that allows him to respond to situations with more insight than a normal AI, or any one of a number of mechanical/electronic explanations. It's also hinted at and possibly explicitly stated in some of the books that Force-sensitive mechanics also make higher quality creations, and that may have had a part in it, though no sensitivity would've been imparted to R2 himself.
Didn't work that way for C3PO, did it? Anyhow, I can't think of any instance of R2 doing anything that seemed to involve the force. The closest is walking across the corridor at the beginning of ANH without getting hit, but C3PO did that also, and Jedi don't seem to be able to halt blaster bolts without a light saber.

[Push You Down]

...nobody has mentioned Skippy the Force Sensitive Droid?

From Wiki

"In one issue of the Star Wars Tales comic series, there is a story that R5-D4, or Skippy the Jedi Droid as he's called, is force-sensitive, due to the concentration of midi-chlorians within his oil. When chosen by Luke, Skippy senses that R2-D2 will be important for the future, and so blows his own motivator and influences the choice of R2-D2. Most say the R5 series was poorly designed from the start, which is stated in the book "The Essential Guide to Droids."

[Troy McClure SF]

If R2-D2 had it, would it be called the 4ce?
...

Go over to FARK and sit there. We'll let you know when you can return.

[Bosstone]

Didn't work that way for C3PO, did it?Hey, I'd like to see you try to implement 6 million forms of communication in a fully-functioning if naive and prissy AI at the age of 9. :D

[DrFidelius]

Anyhow, I can't think of any instance of R2 doing anything that seemed to involve the force. The closest is walking across the corridor at the beginning of ANH without getting hit, but C3PO did that also, and Jedi don't seem to be able to halt blaster bolts without a light saber.

Uncle Owen almost bought a different R2 unit, but it blew its circuits at a very convenient time.

Coincidence? I think not.

(If R2 has ninja, um I mean Jedi powers, he is not trained in the use of the Force but is just an instinctual User.)

[RTFirefly]

I can't think of any instance of R2 doing anything that seemed to involve the force. Hell, I don't recall Luke doing anything involving the Force until Obi-Wan took Luke under his wing. The mythology, as developed through the first two movies, didn't seem to exclude the possibility of sentient robots' being open to the Force. Only with RotJ did that change.

[garygnu]

Uncle Owen almost bought a different R2 unit, but it blew its circuits at a very convenient time.

Coincidence? I think not...
That's what got me thinking about this in the first place. R2 was kinda freaking out at the time, too. He was also able to con Luke into taking off the restraining bolt.

[Ike Witt]

Hell, I don't recall Luke doing anything involving the Force until Obi-Wan took Luke under his wing.
Wasn't his ability to bullseye a whomprat in his T16 indicative of his force sensitivity?

[OneCentStamp]

...nobody has mentioned Skippy the Force Sensitive Droid?

From Wiki

"In one issue of the Star Wars Tales comic series, there is a story that R5-D4, or Skippy the Jedi Droid as he's called, is force-sensitive, due to the concentration of midi-chlorians within his oil. When chosen by Luke, Skippy senses that R2-D2 will be important for the future, and so blows his own motivator and influences the choice of R2-D2. Most say the R5 series was poorly designed from the start, which is stated in the book "The Essential Guide to Droids."How the fuck did midi-chlorians get in his oil? :dubious: :confused:

This whole thing is just bizarre.

[Captain Amazing]

He was also able to con Luke into taking off the restraining bolt.

To be fair, it's really not that hard to con Luke.

[OneCentStamp]

To be fair, it's really not that hard to con Luke.Ah, yes, the many sides of Luke in Episode IV:

"You know about the rebellion against the Empire??" [/childish doofus]

"But that's a whole nother yeeeeear!!" [/whiny, ungrateful little bitch]

etc. etc. :p

[Terrifel]

"Hold on there! Where do you think you're--"

*bleep beep bleeeeeep boop beepity beep boop*

"Er...Bleep beep bleep, boop beepity beep boop."

*piyoot woooooop*

"...Piyoot woop. Piyoot woop."








--R2-D2, doing the Jedi Mind Trick. Just in case that wasn't obvious.

It's better if you imagine him waving his little gripper arm around mystically while beeping.

[Danalan]

Are we absolutely certain that there isn't some sort of organic component in an R2's construction? Certainly possible that there is an organic quantum computer in there somewhere. If so, then that solves the mito-whatit'swhoses problem.

As far as R2-D2 using the force, I think maybe -- but only sub-consciously, to affect his luck.

Then again, I can't believe I've been sucked into a discussion about imaginary robots in an impossible universe. Clearly, the force is not strong in me. :smack:

[Terrifel]

Are we absolutely certain that there isn't some sort of organic component in an R2's construction? Certainly possible that there is an organic quantum computer in there somewhere. If so, then that solves the mito-whatit'swhoses problem.Clearly, somebody needs to track down Kenny Baker at a con and ask for a blood sample.



I always imagined that if you opened R2 up, right in the middle there'd be a wired-up, disembodied human head.

It's probably his resemblance to a Dalek that suggested that to me.

[H3Knuckles]

...nobody has mentioned Skippy the Force Sensitive Droid?

From Wiki

"In one issue of the Star Wars Tales comic series, there is a story that R5-D4, or Skippy the Jedi Droid as he's called, is force-sensitive, due to the concentration of midi-chlorians within his oil. When chosen by Luke, Skippy senses that R2-D2 will be important for the future, and so blows his own motivator and influences the choice of R2-D2. Most say the R5 series was poorly designed from the start, which is stated in the book "The Essential Guide to Droids."

OneCentStamp, you've either been whooshed, or it's wikivandalism. It's pretty well established that Force control is only for organic beings (see C'Baoth in Zahn's Dark Force Rising trilogy, for one). It is a big deal in the Tales of the Bounty Hunters book that 4-Lom takes it upon himself to try and learn to perceive and use the Force. Or how about the Jedi student of Luke's (Nichos Mar?) who's body is dying, and his consciousness is transferred into the body of a droid? He "lived," but lost the ability to utilize the force.

R2-D2 is unusually lucky. Probability still exists, even in SW's universe. Add to that the fact that the R2- series is known for independent thinking, creativity, and above-average intelligence. Lastly, he hasn't had his mind wiped in something like forever, as far as we know (I highly doubt the Naboo got memory wipes for their droids, not if they hold special awards ceremonies for them whenever they do something right*), which would give him a remarkable degree of insight. Unlike poor C-3PO, who's probably had his mind wiped so many times it's a wonder he can walk and speak at the same time. :p

And no, it's pretty thoroughly established (such as in the Essential Guide to Robots) that the droids of Star Wars are purely mechanical. Anything more is still considered a Cyborg. Hell, Guri (Shadows of the Empire; Xizor's assassin/attendant/mistress/spy) is considered a cyborg and everything about her was created in a lab. For those who don't know, she's like a terminator. Droid innards with an artificially made organic exterior (plus, she's got some sort of cloaking or sheath that conceals her artificiality even under a direct scan, IIRC).



*Dumbest SW scene ever. Nothing Jar-Jar does compares to the "Thanks for being the sole survivor and doing your job, please give him an extra-thorough oil bath!" moment. :rolleyes:

[H3Knuckles]

Oops, make that "See C'Baoth's comments about R2 in..."

Darn edit window.

[Bobotheoptimist]

I have long believed that, due to the extended period without a memory wipe, R2 has gone from a standard AI to true sentience. I seem to recall that it's implied in AotC that droids are not mass-produced by machinery. Thus, although an assembly line could produce a fairly uniform production run, anomalies like R2 would not be difficult to justify. A demo or beta model with enhanced features that proved to be too expensive or complicated for the factory to make many, or maybe they were prone to develop individuality that was considered undesirable and redesigned. Naboo would then have bought returns and floor models, being rather unwarlike in disposition.

But no Force, I'd say.

[Bosstone]

*Dumbest SW scene ever. Nothing Jar-Jar does compares to the "Thanks for being the sole survivor and doing your job, please give him an extra-thorough oil bath!" moment. :rolleyes:Concur. I'm not even sure what the purpose of that scene was, except perhaps to emphasize that this is THE R2-D2 and he's now a Player Character, to use an RPG term. [/geek]

[Push You Down]

OneCentStamp, you've either been whooshed, or it's wikivandalism.

It's neither. Star Wars Tales was a comic anthology series telling usually OUTSIDE of canon stories. One of which is the Skippy the Jedi Droid. It's not meant to be canon but it is still a star wars droid using "the force" in a slightly comical story.

[mlees]

Are we absolutely certain that there isn't some sort of organic component in an R2's construction? Certainly possible that there is an organic quantum computer in there somewhere. If so, then that solves the mito-whatit'swhoses problem.

As far as R2-D2 using the force, I think maybe -- but only sub-consciously, to affect his luck.

Then again, I can't believe I've been sucked into a discussion about imaginary robots in an impossible universe. Clearly, the force is not strong in me. :smack:

How do we know it wasn't Luke's Force powers that blew up the other droid, not R2D2's?

[Shawn1767]

I don't know if this has been contradicted, but the way I keep midichlorians in line with my belief in how the force works is this: Midichlorians do not "cause" the force. They are merely a sign of having good force skills.

For this analogy: Charisma=the force, friends=midichlorians. Someone who has a lot of charisma would have a lot of friends. Therefore, if you saw someone and saw they had a lot of friends you could infer that he had a lot of charisma. So, people are drawn to people with lots of charisma just as midichlorians are drawn to individuals with the force. Therefore a high midi count would indicate someone stronger in the force than someone with a low midi count. That's how I keep it straight in my head without contradicting the hope that anyone could become strong in the force.

Now if anyone could point me where this idea might be contradicted... I would not appreciate it... ;)

[Revenant Threshold]

It's neither. Star Wars Tales was a comic anthology series telling usually OUTSIDE of canon stories. One of which is the Skippy the Jedi Droid. It's not meant to be canon but it is still a star wars droid using "the force" in a slightly comical story. Yep. I have the comic in question, actually (well, I say "have", it's in the attic somewhere). They basically took the droid that Owen initially picks and built up a backstory for it. He also levitates things.

[MJinks]

The Zahn trilogy introduces anti-Force bubbles created by creatures on a Jedi-ignored planet, along with predators that hunt using the Force on that same planet. The Jedi of old failed to even investigate the phemonemon, choosing to ignore it completely. This could be similar.I think they were called the Ysalamari. Didn't that series also introduce the idea of Kortosis metal being immune to lightsabers, or was that established earlier?

I always liked the Zahn books, I love the Talon Karrde character.

[KneadToKnow]

How the fuck did midi-chlorians get in his [I]oil?
Project Mayhem: Tatooine Branch.

You should always say, "Clean oil, please."

[Taber]

How the fuck did midi-chlorians get in his oil? :dubious: :confused:

This whole thing is just bizarre.

Well, millions of years ago, there was this jedi dinosaur...

[garygnu]

Well, millions of years ago, there was this jedi dinosaur...
...named Quigonosaurus.

[Voyager]

Hell, I don't recall Luke doing anything involving the Force until Obi-Wan took Luke under his wing. The mythology, as developed through the first two movies, didn't seem to exclude the possibility of sentient robots' being open to the Force. Only with RotJ did that change.
They didn't show it, but I bet that him hitting wamp rats (or whatever) in Beggar's Canyon was possible due to him using the force.

I can see the droid blowing out as an example. Convincing Luke, no. R2 could be clever without needing the Force to explain it. He is clearly a droid genius, due, I think, to him never being memory wiped, having lots of time to think between episodes, and not resenting it like Marvin.

[Voyager]

How do we know it wasn't Luke's Force powers that blew up the other droid, not R2D2's?
Maybe Obiwan was crouching on the other side of a hill or something. He did turn up rather conveniently the next day.

[Der Trihs]

The closest is walking across the corridor at the beginning of ANH without getting hit, but C3PO did that also, and Jedi don't seem to be able to halt blaster bolts without a light saber.Darth Vader did; blocked it with his hand when Han tried to shoot him. In one of the books ( I, Jedi I think ), that kind of energy manipulation is described as a rare talent, which explains why most Jedi use sabers.

[Ranchoth]

I should probably bring up the Iron Knights (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Iron_Knight). Though, technically, they're not droids, they're an exotic form of cyborg...part machine, part silicon based crystaline lifeform (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shard). (I don't even know if there's a proper term for that. Cycrys? Cybicon?)

If they can be force sensitive, it doesn't seem entirely impossible that a droid couldn't be, depending on what SW droids' brains are composed of. It might have to do with relative complexity—like if, by analogy, a vat-grown organic brain was capable of accessing the force, but a collection of vat-grown ganglion couldn't.

Or, like others have said, if even an organic brain was damaged, brainwashed, or raised in severe isolation, maybe it couldn't access the force—not unlike a typical droid who might be built with a low IQ, used as a slave, and/or had it's brain reset on a regular basis. So maybe if most droids couldn't use the force, it just means Kasper Hauser, a fresh Nexus 6, or Randal McMurphy couldn't do it, either.

[E-Sabbath]

R2 is not a force user.

R2 is, however, a badass. He is the _only_ character who knows exactly what's going on at all times. He knows who Luke is. He knows where Luke is. He's the one who talked Skippy into blowing his top. He kicks seven kinds of ass and doesn't bother to take names.

R2 is everything Han wishes he could be. And nobody notices, cause all he does is go boop.

[Whack-a-Mole]

It is a big deal in the Tales of the Bounty Hunters book that 4-Lom takes it upon himself to try and learn to perceive and use the Force. Or how about the Jedi student of Luke's (Nichos Mar?) who's body is dying, and his consciousness is transferred into the body of a droid? He "lived," but lost the ability to utilize the force.



How do you explain General Grievous then? Or Darth Vader?

Grievous was not a Sith but according to this (http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/midi.html) he has a high midichlorian count. While not trained specifically in the use of the force I think he still benefited from an affinity for it and of course he was about as mechanical as they come while still having an organic brain.

Vader of course was still mostly human but with significant mechanical support yet it seemed to hinder him not at all.

[Amp]

R2 is not a force user.

R2 is, however, a badass. He is the _only_ character who knows exactly what's going on at all times. He knows who Luke is. He knows where Luke is. He's the one who talked Skippy into blowing his top. He kicks seven kinds of ass and doesn't bother to take names.

R2 is everything Han wishes he could be. And nobody notices, cause all he does is go boop.
R2 is Chuck Norris... in the future!!! :eek:

[The Understander]

R2 is Chuck Norris... in the future!!! :eek:

:eek:

-50 geek points, nerf herder!

[Revenant Threshold]

Well, millions of years ago, there was this jedi dinosaur... ... named Desann (http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/thumb/2/21/Desann-temple.jpg/250px-Desann-temple.jpg).

[Amp]

:eek:

-50 geek points, nerf herder!
Fine, fine, R2 is Chuck Norris in a galaxy far, far away. (Which may or may not be in the future)

[garygnu]

That's the coolest (or nerdiest) thing I've read all day, thanks! I'm in San Jose next month, maybe I can buy you a beer.
I somehow missed this earlier. Thank you. I'm going to try and be at the Dopefest in San Fran on Nov 3rd, which is technically next month.

[Elendil's Heir]

Fine, fine, R2 is Chuck Norris in a galaxy far, far away. (Which may or may not be in the future)

What part of "A long time ago" don't you understand? :dubious: :)

[Sleel]

Darth Vader did; blocked it with his hand when Han tried to shoot him. In one of the books ( I, Jedi I think ), that kind of energy manipulation is described as a rare talent, which explains why most Jedi use sabers.

To back this up and flesh it out, this was mentioned in the novelization of The Empire Strikes Back. If I remember right, the writer explicitly said that he didn't use his mechanical arm to just take the damage, but that he actually absorbed the energy through the Force. Foreshadowing the encounter between Luke and the Emperor in Jedi when Luke tries to deal with the Force lightning.

There's also stuff from a comic book series that a friend of mine has. It's set after the Battle of Endor, and Luke has started sliding toward the Dark Side. His powers are shown as being demi-godish. At one point, he blocks a blast from an AT-AT cannon with the Force.

I think that R2-D2 is just really good at analysis, is more creative than a 'droid has any right to be, and he's got more experience than every single character in the story — with the exception of Yoda — since he's never been wiped during the course of something like 70–80 years, and has been involved in crisis after crisis. He's mastered being in the right place at the right time and has always been good at figuring out what to do to get things working again.

[devilsknew]

well, the first mistake is believing that the force is a purely biological force. It is a reactive force and permeates as a field. It is residual, and there is no beginning or ending point. I prefer to think of R2 as Luke, Obi, and Lea's familiar.

[garygnu]

...I prefer to think of R2 as Luke, Obi, and Lea's familiar.
That sounds like an appropriate analogy to fantasy magic. Face it, that's what the Force is anyway, magic in a high-tech universe.

[Pushkin]

I always imagined that if you opened R2 up, right in the middle there'd be a wired-up, disembodied human head.

It's probably his resemblance to a Dalek that suggested that to me.

Ah, I saw him as akin to one of the intelligent Mind machines in Ian Banks' "Culture" universe that had organic components to back up their pico-circuitry.

[Terrifel]

Ah, I saw him as akin to one of the intelligent Mind machines in Ian Banks' "Culture" universe that had organic components to back up their pico-circuitry.Quite apart from the Force debate, this also raises the fascinating question of whether R2-D2 can poo.

[Elendil's Heir]

...since [R2-D2]'s never been wiped during the course of something like 70–80 years....


I thought both Threepio and Artoo got their memory banks wiped at the end of Ep III, on Bail Organa's orders?

[garygnu]

I thought both Threepio and Artoo got their memory banks wiped at the end of Ep III, on Bail Organa's orders?
He specified only the protocol droid, that being C-3PO, to have a memory wipe. R2 used the force to make Bail forget to include R2 in the order.

[Miller]

What part of "A long time ago" don't you understand? :dubious: :)

Ha! Shows what you know. The events of Star Wars are in our future, but the opening title crawl is even further in the future. Luke blows up the Death Star 20,000 years from now. 25,000 years from now, the movie starts, and talks about things that happened 5,000 years previous.

+50 geek points to me for a ridiculously convoluted fanwank!

[Yumblie]

Hmm. If episdoes 7-9 were made, I wonder if the opening statement would get more and more recent. Episode 7 would be "a somewhat long time ago", 8 would be "a short time ago" and 9 would be "a few minutes ago". Or better yet, "Right now".

[Revenant Threshold]

Hmm. If episdoes 7-9 were made, I wonder if the opening statement would get more and more recent. Episode 7 would be "a somewhat long time ago", 8 would be "a short time ago" and 9 would be "a few minutes ago". Or better yet, "Right now". Pulling out to a frantically typing guy on a computer.

[robardin]

The way I see it, R2-D2 was actually a disguise for the nimble, Sith-fighting badass Yoda we saw at the end of Episode III. When he went into exile he set up a dummy Muppet-like puppet as a decoy, which he could control remotely, and spent much of the rest of his life encased in a droid's casing. It completely fooled the Emperor and Vader and even Luke, who he could not risk showing his true self to just in case he went over to the Dark Side.

Come on, doesn't this explain a LOT? Even the ghostly image of Obi-Wan, Yoda and an Anakin-in-Jedi-robes at the end of RotJ was a holo projected by Droid-Yoda.

It's also the surprise ending to Episode 9, when R2 cracks like an eggshell to reveal Yoda inside.

[silenus]

So when R2 launched Luke's light saber in RotJ, it was just Yoda farting?

[H3Knuckles]

How do you explain General Grievous then? Or Darth Vader?

Grievous was not a Sith but according to this (http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/midi.html) he has a high midichlorian count. While not trained specifically in the use of the force I think he still benefited from an affinity for it and of course he was about as mechanical as they come while still having an organic brain.

Vader of course was still mostly human but with significant mechanical support yet it seemed to hinder him not at all.

Both of them still had organics. As I established, the question remains if it's naturally alive, or purely artifice. Grievous was mostly a head and some internal organs, right? Vader still had an intact torso, at least. Anyway, even the Iron Knights were naturally alive creatures who became cyborgs. It's not even limited to carbon based life.

40Lom was a droid, and in the short story (which might not even be cannon anymore, but I'm not sure either way) he thought he might be able to come to know the force, but the author intentionally left it ambiguous whether he was sensing the force, or just developing some aptitude for predicting the future (which could simply be a self-deluding prgnostication program for all we know).

AFAIK there is no cannonical instance of a droid being able to use the force. My bringing up Nichos Marr was to illustrate how a soul of a living being could be bound to an artificial form, and it still wouldn't be enough to grant force-use.

[H3Knuckles]

F***! Missed the edit window.

That first line should read: "Both of them still had organics, and were thus cyborgs."

Add the following to the end of my first paragraph:
But it has to be a living thing, not something that's made, in other words, Star Wars is reinforcing the notion of life as something special, something unique. It would be interesting if a Frankenstein monster in the SW universe would qualify or not.

Add this right after my mention of Nichos Marr: "(a soul in a true machine, rather than a cyborg)"

And lastly, I'd like to add this:
R2 didn't have the Force, and there is no Force Ex Machina. R2 was just preternaturally intelligent and perceptive because he managed to avoid getting memory wipes for who knows how long. Someone else in this thread said they thought droids became fully sentient if they didn't get their memories wiped after a long enough period; I think I remember that being explicitly stated somewhere (in cannon). If so, then we can say that R2 is no mere droid, but he is still a machine, and thus without the ability to control the Force. Again, Zahn's trilogy states it explicitly when Joruus C'Baoth forbids Luke to bring R2 with him to their training, because they are blind to the Force. Luke has to leave him behind with the X-Wing*.

*Honestly, this is probably better in the long run; would you leave your only guaranteed way off-planet unwatched? Especially an X-Wing.

[Whack-a-Mole]

Again, Zahn's trilogy states it explicitly when Joruus C'Baoth forbids Luke to bring R2 with him to their training, because they are blind to the Force. Luke has to leave him behind with the X-Wing.


That seems rather silly from a storyline point of view unless they did view R2 as a sentient being. Otherwise he is nothing more than a clever toaster on wheels. It'd be like saying leave your wristwatch behind because it is blind to the force.

[H3Knuckles]

That seems rather silly from a storyline point of view unless they did view R2 as a sentient being. Otherwise he is nothing more than a clever toaster on wheels. It'd be like saying leave your wristwatch behind because it is blind to the force.

It's serving three purposes:
1.) It's the set-up for Zahn to have Luke think about how he views droids.
2.) Zahn's playing around with the grey area droids occupy in people's perspective in Star Wars. As commented elsewhere in the thread, even in the movies it's apparent that different people view droids differently; like pets, beloved cars, simple objects, or people. Some people treat them differently at different times. It's one of the more interesting things about the SW universe imho that there isn't some universally held standard attitude about droids. I think it's pretty realistic.
3.) It's story-telling short-hand for C'Baoth being a bad dude. Just like when Luke enters the Cantina and the bartender yells at him that "their kind" aren't allowed. It let you know the bar was a bad place. An alternative would've been to show C'Baoth kicking a puppy, or kicking R2 for that matter.

[Terrifel]

An alternative would've been to show C'Baoth kicking a puppy, or kicking R2 for that matter.Hey, didn't C-3P0 kick R2 at one point?

Come to think of it, C-3P0 was built by Darth Vader, and was (however tangentially) instrumental in his downfall.

Does that mean that C-3P0 is the next Sith Lord?

[Elendil's Heir]

...Does that mean that C-3P0 is the next Sith Lord?

He's already been worshipped as a god by the Ewoks, so that's not too great a leap of the imagination, esp. for Lucas.

::shudder::

[Terrifel]

"Goodness gracious me! I'm dreadfully sorry, but I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your Rebel friends arrive. And-- if I may say so, Master Jedi-- give in to your anger! The odds that you will strike me down with all of your hate are 3,725 to 1!"

Just kidding, of course. I like C-3P0. It wasn't his fault that Lucas decided to amp up the Komedy Antics.

[Little Nemo]

The Force is first described as an energy field created by all living things, yet non-organic things can still be manipulated with it. R2, the X-Wing, and many lightsabers were all moved about using the Force.I think this is the key. R2D2, as a non-living droid, cannot have mitochlorians or generate the Force. But he can be the focus of the Force. He and C3P0 were closely associated with some of the most powerful users of the Force in the galaxy. Guys like Vader and Yoda and Obi-Wan and Luke and Leia were just dripping with the Force - so much so that they were sometimes using it without even being aware. So when they said something simple like "R2D2, go scout that corridor" they also gave a little push with the Force to their command. The droids were on site and they were the minds that saw what the situation was. But it was the Force from other people that was altering reality. Over the decades this connection built up and became more solid and more powerful.

[Miller]

That seems rather silly from a storyline point of view unless they did view R2 as a sentient being. Otherwise he is nothing more than a clever toaster on wheels. It'd be like saying leave your wristwatch behind because it is blind to the force.

IIRC, that was C'Baoth's point. Droids can think and reason, but can't use the force, which makes them an abomination. It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, but then, C'Baoth was crazy.

Of course, most of Zahn's books are no longer canon, thanks to the prequel trilogy.

[garygnu]

I found this set of observations (http://www.ishkur.com/editorials/starwars.php) via reddit. Relevant commentary:
What a coincidence that Anakin's astromech droid is R2D2, who later becomes Luke's droid. Since 3PO was the only droid who's memory was wiped, you'd think that sooner or later R2 would just tell Luke "Dude, I flew with your dad back in the day. Yeah, he was a badass. He killed many people. Oh, he's also Darth fucking Vader. Search your feelings, you know it to be true. Now shut the fuck up, go down to Toschi station and get me some power converters. I got sand in my ball bearings. Bitch." - www.ishkur.com

[H3Knuckles]

Of course, most of Zahn's books are no longer canon, thanks to the prequel trilogy.

I've seen comments like this made about the EU being discounted by the prequels a few times, but I don't really recall much that gets changed, so...

How so? I'd like to see it elaborated on.

The biggest thing I'd see is the Jedi being portrayed as not having marriage/families in the prequels, but often having long lines of Jedi in the EU. But there's a lot of room for fans to weasel around that.

Also, some cannon books tended to portray Imperialists as coming from a well-established culture of pro-imperial sentiment, but I always disregarded that stuff anyway because it clashes with the original trilogy. Right there in the old stuff we knew that the current emperor created the empire, and that Darth Vader, a student of Obi-Wan, personally executed the Jedi thereby bringing an end to the Old Republic. So just based on dialogue from SW/Episode IV/ANH you can infer that at most there's 40 years history to the Empire?

So what exactly doesn't work now?

[Miller]

Zahn invented a lot of backstory about the Clone Wars for his trilogy, most of which is flatly incompatible with the prequels. For example, in his books, the Clone Wars were started by someone called the Clone Masters. Or possibly Clone Lords? At any rate, they fought against the Republic and lost. As the prequels show us, it was the Republic itself that employed a clone army, and they used it to successfully prosecute a war against the separtists.

Thrawn discovers an intact cloning facility on the Emperor's secret treasure planet, which is a shock, as cloning was supposed to have been outlawed in the wake of the Clone War. Which doesn't make sense anymore, because the clones were the heroic victors of the Clone War, protecting the Republic from the seditious Trade Federation and the treacherous Jedi. Why would the Emperor outlaw his own victorious army like that?

When Luke and the others discover that Thrawn has been cloning Stormtroopers, they're shocked. But the Imperial army was originally entirely cloned, so this shouldn't be particularly shocking, even if the service had been opened up to non-clones after the war ended.

Also central to the plot of Zahn's novel was the concept of clone madness. Cloning a sentient being created a sort of confusion in the Force that would eventually drive the clone mad. Admiral Thrawn was able to circumvent this by growing his clones under the influence of the Force-resistent ysalamiri worms. Again, not something that happens in the prequel trilogy.

Lastly, the Clone War, as described in hints and offhand references by Timothy Zahn, sounded really cool. We know from the prequel trilogy that it was, in fact, stupid and boring. So that's another major discrepency.

[garygnu]

...Thrawn discovers an intact cloning facility on the Emperor's secret treasure planet, which is a shock, as cloning was supposed to have been outlawed in the wake of the Clone War. Which doesn't make sense anymore, because the clones were the heroic victors of the Clone War, protecting the Republic from the seditious Trade Federation and the treacherous Jedi. Why would the Emperor outlaw his own victorious army like that?
...
The Emperor outlawed cloning to prevent anyone from possibly raising an army to defeat him. It was probably one of the "benevolent" things he did towards the beginning of his reign to keep people in line.
Also central to the plot of Zahn's novel was the concept of clone madness. Cloning a sentient being created a sort of confusion in the Force that would eventually drive the clone mad. Admiral Thrawn was able to circumvent this by growing his clones under the influence of the Force-resistent ysalamiri worms. Again, not something that happens in the prequel trilogy.
The standard rate of clone growth was twice normal aging. The Ysalamiri made it much faster than that. 10x or something.

We're getting off topic.

[Miller]

The standard rate of clone growth was twice normal aging. The Ysalamiri made it much faster than that. 10x or something.

I remember that now, but wasn't that tied into the insanity thing? Something like, the faster you grew a clone, the crazier it would be? You could get a perfectly sane clone if you grew it at exactly the same speed as a normal human, but that sort of cancelled out the whole point of making a clone in the first place. The more time you shaved off the growing process, the more unstable the result. With the ysalamiri isolating the growing clones from the Force, they could crank the growth speed all the way up.

Man, I haven't read those books since high school. I wonder if they hold up?

[mlees]

So when R2 launched Luke's light saber in RotJ, it was just Yoda farting?

Nah. R2 just lobbed it out there. Luke pulls it outta the sky with his force powers. Yoda was on Dagoba looking at muppet porn.

[Miller]

Nah. R2 just lobbed it out there. Luke pulls it outta the sky with his force powers. Yoda was on Dagoba looking at muppet porn.

"A naughty fraggle, you are! Punished, you must be!"

[mlees]

"A naughty fraggle, you are! Punished, you must be!"

Heh. We can go on for days, making funny porn comments in Yoda-speak. :)

"Mmmm. Difficult to predict, the money-shot is. So full of emotions."

[Elendil's Heir]

"Porn leads to excitement. Excitement leads to turgidity. Turgidity leads to... stimulation."

[robardin]

Heh. We can go on for days, making funny porn comments in Yoda-speak. :)
Or simply quoting out of context.

"Judge me by my size, do you? And well you should not."

[Pushkin]

R2 is, however, a badass. He is the _only_ character who knows exactly what's going on at all times. He knows who Luke is. He knows where Luke is. He's the one who talked Skippy into blowing his top. He kicks seven kinds of ass and doesn't bother to take names

R2 isn't just a badass, talking a machine into self destruction makes him on a par with Captain Kirk!

[Terrifel]

R2 isn't just a badass, talking a machine into self destruction makes him on a par with Captain Kirk!And, much like Kirk, he gets to bask in all the praise and glory, even though it was really his pragmatic, probability-quoting associate who actually solved the problem.

"Excuse me, sir, but that R2 unit is in prime condition! A real bargain!"

Oh wasn't it a striking coincidence that R2-D2 was chosen as a replacement? Surely the only possible answer is that R2 must have Force powers. Obviously the very laws of the universe were shaping themselves to enable R2 to fulfill his destiny. One thing's for certain, though; it couldn't possibly have had anything to do with that gold fellow standing over there. Who is he, anyway? I'm sorry, I forgot that the film saga is actually The R2-D2 Show.

Once again, R2 gets everything, and 3PO gets nothing. No wonder he's so bitter.

[Little Nemo]

Heh. We can go on for days, making funny porn comments in Yoda-speak.A pizza, you have delivered. But money for a tip, I have not.

[garygnu]

...Once again, R2 gets everything, and 3PO gets nothing. No wonder he's so bitter.
That's not true. 3PO get a oil bath and a memory wipe. R2 never got either of those.

[Elendil's Heir]

A pizza, you have delivered. But money for a tip, I have not.

My cable TV to be installed, I need. Smoking hot, you are.