Are there any 13-year old girls seeking sex with older men who are not police agents?

[Billdo]

Glancing at the front page of today's edition of the legal newspaper here in New York, I saw that the US Court of Appeals upheld a "sting" leading to the conviction of a man for attempt to entice a minor to engage in prohibited sexual activity (18 USC 2422(b) (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=2422)). The Second Circuit joined other circuits in holding that you can be convicted of attempt even though the underage girl you thought you were meeting for sex was a police informant or officer.

This conviction started in a chatroom called "I Love Older Men" when the 62-year old defendant started a conversation with "Teen2Hot4u", also known as 13-year old "Lorie", actually an adult FBI informant. After several IM conversations in which the Defendant detailed what he wanted to do with "Lorie", "Lorie" said she would meet him, but only if her 13-year old friend "Julie", actually an FBI agent, were there. After some more messaging between the defendant and "Julie", the defendant came (bearing condoms and Viagra) to meet the girls in Manhattan, where he was arrested by the FBI. He was convicted and sentenced to the mandatory minimum term of five years.

We've all heard close variations of this story innumerable times, not to mention the Dateline NBC series in which they videotape the men coming to meet what they think are underage girls. What I find surprising is that these stories never seem to mention about other young girls they have actually succeeded in seducing from the internet.

My question is whether are there any purportedly underage girls trolling chatrooms for sex with older man who are not in fact police informants. Less flippantly, is there any information about how many actual young children are actually seduced (or have attempts to seduce them made) like this, as opposed to the percentage of them that are police officers or agents.

[Sunspace]

Are there any 13-year-olds interested in anyone 1.5 generations or more older than them at all? I remember when I was 13, and someone even three years older than me seemed in a different world. People in their twenties or older were unimaginably remote.

I'd be very surprised if there were real 13-year-olds interested in anyone past their twenties. I'd say that the cops were definitely relying on wishful thinking on the part of the 60-year-olds.

[Zambini57]

[/QUOTE]My question is whether are there any purportedly underage girls trolling chatrooms for sex with older man who are not in fact police informants. Less flippantly, is there any information about how many actual young children are actually seduced (or have attempts to seduce them made) like this, as opposed to the percentage of them that are police officers or agents.[/QUOTE]

Man, that has to be about the weirdest question I have read recently.

You want to know if there are actual 13 year olds out there soliciting sex who are not cops? ''

Of course there are. The real question is why do you want to know?

What are you trying to do, compute the odds of getting caught? Because that's what it sounds like.

[Dag Otto]

I think a better way of putting it may be: Of the older men who have been busted by a sting, have any been found to have been previously sucessful in meeting with a minor? It seems to me that the computers of the men who have been caught would be seized as evidence, and inspection of the computers might lead to other convictions for previous encounters. It seems unlikely that Dateline would ignore such follow-on stories, but I've never hard of any (but I don't watch Dateline much either).

[drachillix]

My question is whether are there any purportedly underage girls trolling chatrooms for sex with older man who are not in fact police informants. Less flippantly, is there any information about how many actual young children are actually seduced (or have attempts to seduce them made) like this, as opposed to the percentage of them that are police officers or agents.

Sadly there are many, a huge percentage of them in bad home environments looking for any way out they can, not realizing they are kind of jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Many of the behaviors and preferences for mature stable mates are already in place in 13-14 y/o girls, they are after all biologically speaking, ready to reproduce. Older men are the mature and more stable, and more so the older they go. What drives them to seek 14 y/o mates is another issue.

When I was in HS I knew at least 5-6 girls with "college guys", some in their mid 20's, for boyfriends, many dopers could name a bunch of similar scenarios.

[drachillix]

Are there any 13-year-olds interested in anyone 1.5 generations or more older than them at all? I remember when I was 13, and someone even three years older than me seemed in a different world. People in their twenties or older were unimaginably remote.

I'd be very surprised if there were real 13-year-olds interested in anyone past their twenties. I'd say that the cops were definitely relying on wishful thinking on the part of the 60-year-olds.

Oh how tantalizing the unknown can be.....

[Wee Bairn]

I don't think the pervs find minors on "I am underage and I wanna bang old dudes" websites very often, its that the pervs go to sites frequented by young girls, and then try to talk them into it.

[jtgain]

I think the OP asks an excellent question, and it is one that has very serious societal implications.

ARE these guys just following a fantasy and taken off of the street before they rape OR
is this their 15th encounter, and the 14 previous times they had sex with a 13 year old girl, only this time they got caught?

If it is #2, then we have a VERY VERY serious problem in society. If it is #1, then we only have a VERY serious to maybe not that serious problem, in that these guys would never have had a real opportunity to get around a 13 year old girl anyways, and these arrests are only preemptive.

Good question!

[ForumBot]

Why yes. Come meet me at the Waffle House on Skymall Avenue at 1:00 and I'll let you meet one, but only if my friend Tina comes. Don't worry, she's super cool.

Mwahahahahhaha.

[Colibri]

Man, that has to be about the weirdest question I have read recently.

You want to know if there are actual 13 year olds out there soliciting sex who are not cops? ''

Of course there are. The real question is why do you want to know?

What are you trying to do, compute the odds of getting caught? Because that's what it sounds like.

[Moderating]

Zambini57, I don't think this kind of comment is necessary here. Billdo is known personally to a number of members of the board and I hardly think he would be posting this here if that was what he were after.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[samclem]

My question is whether are there any purportedly underage girls trolling chatrooms for sex with older man who are not in fact police informants. Less flippantly, is there any information about how many actual young children are actually seduced (or have attempts to seduce them made) like this, as opposed to the percentage of them that are police officers or agents.

Man, that has to be about the weirdest question I have read recently.

You want to know if there are actual 13 year olds out there soliciting sex who are not cops? ''

Of course there are. The real question is why do you want to know?

What are you trying to do, compute the odds of getting caught? Because that's what it sounds like. Zambini57. Just because you get a weirded-out feeling, I'm not sure that your response is useful in General Questions.

Since you seem to know("Of course there are") the answer to Billdo's question, it would be helpful to provide a link in the thread.

If you have a problem with the poster and his question, start a thread in the appropriate forum.

samclem Moderator, General Questions

[Zambini57]

[Moderating]

Zambini57, I don't think this kind of comment is necessary here. Billdo is known personally to a number of members of the board and I hardly think he would be posting this here if that was what he were after.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

Well, I don't know him, and if he had a problem, all he had to do was post saying that I was incorrect, instead of running to you.

[Tristan]

Wow, a Mod DP. Awesome.

I have known several girls who had boyfriends in their "upper twenties" when they were 14 or so. It skeeved me out then, it skeevs me out now.

[samclem]

Well, I don't know him, and if he had a problem, all he had to do was post saying that I was incorrect, instead of running to you. For what it's worth, Billdo didn't report your post.

[Mr. Slant]

I can recall back in... probably 2001 or 2002, I was chatting in either MSN or Yahoo chat.
I actually had a 13 or 14 year old female IM me and go about the same sequence of questions that an adult woman in that venue would ask of a guy she was trying to assess for 'courting' material.
When I informed said individual that I'd be glad to chat them, but wouldn't be interested in meeting up with them until they were both employed and the year was 2008, the interest there fizzled.
Was said person really the age and gender in question?
I'll never know.
Was it a cop? I doubt it, since none of the stings I've seen reported involved the cops messaging the subject FIRST.

[Colibri]

Well, I don't know him, and if he had a problem, all he had to do was post saying that I was incorrect, instead of running to you.

Ditto to what sam said. Billdo did not report your post.

[myskepticsight]

I think this is a pretty interesting question. It's been 8 years since I was 13 and hopping Yahoo chat rooms, but I know I only liked meeting new people to talk about Nirvana and how cute Edward Norton was with. Definitely no dating and I barely knew anything about sex. A lot has changed in 8 years, but I wouldn't think that there are just tons of young girls trying to find a new 'daddy.'

However, by watching a few different TV shows on the topic (no cite because I don't remember any specifics on what show it was, what channel, etc, just remember seeing it, so take this for what you will) the FBI agents or whoever that catch these people don't go out of their way to ask for sex. They act like 'normal' 13 year old girls. They act like they just want to make a new friend, talk about soccer or school, etc. It's the guys trolling for sex that bring the dirty stuff up and try to coerce girls into meeting them for reasons not necessarily sexual in hopes they can get some anyway.

But if someone knows more about how the FBI works cases like this, and isnt't talking about of their ass about a TV program probably shown on E!, then please help me fill in actual facts.

[Washoe]

However, by watching a few different TV shows on the topic (no cite because I don't remember any specifics on what show it was, what channel, etc, just remember seeing it, so take this for what you will) the FBI agents or whoever that catch these people don't go out of their way to ask for sex. They act like 'normal' 13 year old girls. They act like they just want to make a new friend, talk about soccer or school, etc. It's the guys trolling for sex that bring the dirty stuff up and try to coerce girls into meeting them for reasons not necessarily sexual in hopes they can get some anyway.

Something like that happened on a message board that I’ve been a member of for several years. Someone working for the Baltimore Police Department was posing as a fourteen-year-old girl. A forty-six-year-old man stared hitting on her. She made it abundantly clear that she was not interested and did everything she could to dissuade him. Unfortunately, he just wouldn’t take ‘no’ for an answer. She finally capitulated and agreed to meet him in a hotel room in Baltimore, which he paid for. So maybe it’s SOP to give the guy every possible chance to back out while the backin’s good.

[Throatwarbler Mangrove]

Sure, why not? They're teenagers, teenagers do all kinds of stupid shit. I did stupid shit when I was 13. That's the whole point of that "age of consent" thing.

I doubt that this is a particularly new development either. History seems to be pretty rife with examples to indicate that this kind of thing has been happening in every human culture since the dawn of civilization. Laws and societies come and go but people are not going to ever stop wanting to have sex with everything.

[JRDelirious]

There has always been members of the teen population who realize they can turn around the "jailbait" angle to get themselves sugardaddied. Just think of the archetypal 30ish-or-older rock band members giving the "all-access backstage tour" to underaged groupies with a swell time being had by all. But no, generally not 13-year-olds; still, enough legal minors that it's generally a good idea to check ID if your hook-up seems rather immature.

But the stings have a different angle than that. For the specific case of NBC's "TCAP", seeing its association with PervertedJustice, one can take a look at the sting logs at the latter website. Think what we may about that organization (opinions about them range from a very vigorous web neighborhood watch protecting our children, to a dangerous lynch mob of zealot cybervigilantes), it so happens that the logs from those subjects who actually did solicit sex from the minors DO every so often (not always, though) include statements by the man to the effect that he has done this before. One would wish to think they were all merely puffing themselves up, but some of that bragging may be for real.

As mentioned by myskepticsight, most of what you see in these cases is NOT young teens overtly and deliberately trolling for adult sex, but rather more like teens "out looking for fun" in general, with the potential "predator" being the one trying to steer the cyber-relationship in a sexual direction.

[Billdo]

Well, I don't know him, and if he had a problem, all he had to do was post saying that I was incorrect, instead of running to you.

Sorry I haven't gotten back to the thread sooner. I didn't report it to any of the moderators, though I appreciate their stepping in.

I asked the question because whenever I see these things happen I ask myself "how could the guy be so damn stupid, don't they realize that they're likely talking to an FBI agent?" My question is what percentage of them are actually talking to the 13-year old girl they think they are, and what percentage are talking to the cops.

[Sage Rat]

Ditto on the "As a freshman in high school...." The majority of the girls in my class were dating guys between 20-25.

[asterion]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to the thread sooner. I didn't report it to any of the moderators, though I appreciate their stepping in.

I asked the question because whenever I see these things happen I ask myself "how could the guy be so damn stupid, don't they realize that they're likely talking to an FBI agent?" My question is what percentage of them are actually talking to the 13-year old girl they think they are, and what percentage are talking to the cops.My first response to seeing the thread title (not even the text) was to think of the old saw "The Internet. Where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are federal agents." My second thought was, I'm sure there's a non-zero number but how do you propose to study such a thing?

[Cluricaun]

If nobody was ever successful at making a "scum connection" as it were I doubt that they'd continue trying. I think that the point of a great deal of the publicity that these stories get is trying to plant the seed in these types of peoples minds that every 13 year old girl on the internet is actually a 37 year old FBI agent named Norm.

If such an idea works only once.......then it works.

[Little Nemo]

My question is whether are there any purportedly underage girls trolling chatrooms for sex with older man who are not in fact police informants.I don't think it's a case of girls trolling for older men as much as it's a case of older men looking for girls. Two my nieces (both well underage) have had older men try to hit on them online and one of them had a guy trying to convince her to meet him. That guy would have been lucky to have been met by the police considering what my brother-in-law's reaction was when he found out about this.

[Gary T]

What are you trying to do, compute the odds of getting caught? Because that's what it sounds like.

Well, I don't know him, and if he had a problem, all he had to do was post saying that I was incorrect, instead of running to you.

Hmm. Looks like two examples of assuming the worst and jumping to a wrong conclusion. May I suggest that a little more benefit of the doubt and little less eagerness to pounce would be appropriate here?

[Charger]

I can't help but think that some girls, upon getting the first nasty solicitation, would begin to pose as a classmate they didn't like. I don't know if it has happened anywhere yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if some creepy old guy showed up at someone's house looking for the young girl who lived there all because an angry classmate wanted "revenge."

[Shalmanese]

But actually, the research in the cases that we’ve gleaned from
actual law enforcement files, for example, suggests a different
reality for these crimes. So first fact is that the predominant online
sex crime victims are not young children. They are teenagers.
There’s almost no victims in the sample that we collected from – a
representative sample of law enforcement cases that involved the
child under the age of 13.
In the predominant sex crime scenario, doesn’t involve violence,
stranger molesters posing online as other children in order to set up
an abduction or assault. Only five percent of these cases actually
involved violence. Only three percent involved an abduction. It’s
also interesting that deception does not seem to be a major factor.
Only five percent of the offenders concealed the fact that they were
adults from their victims. Eighty percent were quite explicit about
their sexual intentions with the youth that they were communicating
with.
So these are not mostly violence sex crimes, but they are criminal
seductions that take advantage of teenage, common teenage
vulnerabilities. The offenders lure teens after weeks of
conversations with them, they play on teens’ desires for romance,
adventure, sexual information, understanding, and they lure them to
encounters that the teams know are sexual in nature with people who
are considerably older than themselves.
So for example, Jenna – this is a pretty typical case – 13-year-old
girl from a divorced family, frequented sex-oriented chat rooms, had
the screen name “Evil Girl.” There she met a guy who, after a
number of conversations, admitted he was 45. He flattered her, gave
– sent her gifts, jewelry. They talked about intimate things. And
eventually, he drove across several states to meet her for sex on
several occasions in motel rooms. When he was arrested in her
company, she was reluctant to cooperate with the law enforcement
authorities.
Many of these cases have commonalities with this particular
instance. In seventy-three percent of the crimes, the youth go to
meet the offender on multiple occasions for multiple sexual
encounters. The law enforcement investigators described the
victims as being in love with or feeling a close friendship for the
offenders in half the cases that they investigated. In a quarter of the
cases, the victims actually had run away from home to be with these
adults that they met online.


cite (http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2007/05/11/just_the_facts.html)

[tomndebb]

Isn't this supposed to be General Questions?

Failing direct personal knowledge, did no one do a simple Google search?

I cannot attest to the accuracy of the following sites, but each relates multiple reports of sex or attempted sex between an adult and a younger teen that was initiated on the internet:

Internet Predator Chat News Archives from 2004 (http://www.pcsndreams.com/Pages/Archives_04.htm)

Internet Predator Chat Nightmares of 2005 (http://www.pcsndreams.com/Pages/Archives_05.htm)

Cyber Crime: Minors (http://www.dangersofinternetdating.com/articles/cybercrime.htm)

Whether any predators nailed in stings had either previous records or had successfully committed earlier crimes undetected, I do not know.

[Nava]

I was a moderator/editor/writer/GM in a text-based internet game (think WoW's grandmother) for 8 years.

We had a couple of cases of grown-ups behaving inappropiately towards teenagers; for example, a 43yo woman who'd started playing because her son did and she wanted to know what it was about then started hitting on the youngest boys (her son was 16, the youngest one I knew who got assaulted by this woman was 13).

The players ran them off; we simply didn't know how to go about calling the cops on them or we would have.

Once a cop contacted our head admin about getting some logs to be used as evidence in a case but I don't know what the case was.

[brazil84]

Isn't this supposed to be General Questions?

Failing direct personal knowledge, did no one do a simple Google search?

Actually I did, but I got too busy with work to post what I found. A google search for "convicted" "met online" and "years old" revealed a large number of articles about older guys getting busted for meeting actual bona fide teenage girls through the internet.

So yeah, I would say that a significant percentage of the "teenage girls" online are really teenage girls.

From personal experience, I can say that I have a female family member who developed relationships with older guys when she was 14. This was before the days of chatrooms, but I think it's pretty likely she would have gone that route had it been available.

I think that a lot of girls who are 13, 14, or 15 are rebelious and have some desire to have romantic/sexual relationships. So they are potential prey for middle-aged dudes who like the idea of being with a girl who is that age.

[brazil84]

these cases have commonalities with this particular
instance. In seventy-three percent of the crimes, the youth go to
meet the offender on multiple occasions for multiple sexual
encounters. The law enforcement investigators described the
victims as being in love with or feeling a close friendship for the
offenders in half the cases that they investigated. In a quarter of the
cases, the victims actually had run away from home to be with these
adults that they met online.

This is what happened in the case of my family member. I was 12 or 13 at the time and at sleepaway camp and I got a call from another family member asking if I knew where this person was. It turned out that she had hopped on a plane and flown 1000 miles to be with her boyfriend or whatever.

I think part of the problem is that many teenage girls have really poor relationships with their parents and they perceive that their parents are trying to control or judge them. So when they meet Mr. Older Guy, he seems really cool and nonjudgmental.

[TheLoadedDog]

Would a 29 year-old guy chatting to a 17 year-old girl be sleazy? I did that.

I was on Yahoo chat many years ago, and I got a PM from this girl. We chatted a little bit. It was pleasant, and then she told me she was 17. I didn't freak out, "Oh no, that's sleazy" but "oh shit, she's got to be boring" (I definitely DON'T have a thing for younger women/girls).

But we ended up best of friends and chatted for several years until we lost contact. There was never anything beyond genuine friendship, and she was an uber-intelligent Muslim Indian girl from London (in fact I got her to post here a couple of times later on). I was kind of.... if I say "older brother", that does sound sleazy, but that's what it was. I was there with her through various exams, boyfriends, university applications (I wrote the one that helped get her into Cambridge! :D ).

I'd never even thought of it as remotely sleazy until I read this thread, and now it bothers me. I'm sure, if I'd ever tried anything on, she'd have sent me a cyber-karate chop a la Miss Piggy.

[Cat Fight]

Actually I did, but I got too busy with work to post what I found. A google search for "convicted" "met online" and "years old" revealed a large number of articles about older guys getting busted for meeting actual bona fide teenage girls through the internet.


But are the men who they claim to be? How many of these real teenage girls are hoping to meet 62-year-old men, and how many think they're going to meet a 19-year-old named Johnny who writes poetry and is a part-time model (that's why his profile pic is from a cologne ad, duh)?

ETA: I've only seen To Catch a Predator here and there. Regarding the guys coming to the house (and there sure do seem to be a hell of a lot of them. If all they need to turn from fantasizing to pedophile is opportunity, that's pretty scary), do they send photos first? Do they lie about their age, looks?

[tomndebb]

I'd never even thought of it as remotely sleazy until I read this thread, and now it bothers me. I'm sure, if I'd ever tried anything on, she'd have sent me a cyber-karate chop a la Miss Piggy.I don't see anything sleazy about your situation. (Perhaps if you had been engaged in chat sex. . . .)

Older person (either sex) befriending younger person (either sex) does not become sleazy unitl sex is included in the equation.

[Shalmanese]

But are the men who they claim to be? How many of these real teenage girls are hoping to meet 62-year-old men, and how many think they're going to meet a 19-year-old named Johnny who writes poetry and is a part-time model (that's why his profile pic is from a cologne ad, duh)?

ETA: I've only seen To Catch a Predator here and there. Regarding the guys coming to the house (and there sure do seem to be a hell of a lot of them. If all they need to turn from fantasizing to pedophile is opportunity, that's pretty scary), do they send photos first? Do they lie about their age, looks?

It’s
also interesting that deception does not seem to be a major factor.
Only five percent of the offenders concealed the fact that they were
adults from their victims.

..

[Sunspace]

Older person (either sex) befriending younger person (either sex) does not become sleazy unitl sex is included in the equation.And it's only sleazy if there's deception or a power imbalance involved. Otherwise, it's at most icky.

[Rysto]

Are there any 13-year old girls seeking sex with older men who are not police agents?

No. 13-year-old girls are only interested in having sex with police officers.

[Cat Fight]

..
Wasn't sure if that meant '21-year-old' adult or '53 and divorced' adult. Deception seems to be a major factor in online dating between consenting adults.

[Critical1]

And it's only sleazy if there's deception or a power imbalance involved. Otherwise, it's at most icky.


I have one ex gf who was 20 years older, and another who was 14 years younger. I seriously don't think what consenting adults do but I do agree with the deception or control parts of that comment.


on the op's subject

I work with 15 year old girls, often one on one, while there are quite a few who have older boyfriends the vast majority are typical teenagers who are mostly interested in other teens, it is true that the girls seem to prefer older teens but can you blame them? 15 year old boys are idiots.

I have had a couple experiences with a girl that is definitely inappropriate behavior on their part. In my case I am a teacher and I think its mostly a trust issue. 15 year old girls are getting their asses kicked by puberty and dealing with horny teenage boys so at least some of the time an older guy who they feel they can trust is very attractive to them. yeah it can be a pain in the ass to deal with but that is one line I ain't even going to cross. I can see where some guys could make that mistake, especially if they are new to the experience. but Trolling for 13 year olds? wtf? who the hell goes LOOKING for that kind of trouble?

[Critical1]

I have one ex gf who was 20 years older, and another who was 14 years younger. I seriously don't think what consenting adults do is anyone else's business, but I do agree with the deception or control parts of that comment.



yeah thats what I meant

[brazil84]

But are the men who they claim to be? How many of these real teenage girls are hoping to meet 62-year-old men, and how many think they're going to meet a 19-year-old named Johnny who writes poetry and is a part-time model (that's why his profile pic is from a cologne ad, duh)?

It's very common for these guys to lie about their ages; to supply older pics; etc.

I know this because I have visited the "perverted justice" website which is run by a group of vigilante types who try to publicly embarrass these guys.

Which is actually another thing to consider. Probably a lot of the "13 year old girls" are not cops and not girls, but guys who are faking it in order to embarrass other guys. Or to get thrills. Or both.

If all they need to turn from fantasizing to pedophile is opportunity, that's pretty scary), do they send photos first? Do they lie about their age, looks?

If you are curious, I suggest you check out the "perverted justice" website.