More homosexuality...

[Space Vampire]

Here's something I've wondered about... Do all you genuine, card-carrying homosexuals feel like lesbian chic trivializes your natural sexual orientation, or are you "all, like," "yeeees, jooooin uuusss!" Know what I mean? Andygirl, you live in the MA "five colleges" area, right? Ever been to Hampshire College? I knew a lot of hippie girls there who tried out lesbianism because "I love eeeeveryone!" Or then there were the normal, white, middle-class (or better, being at one of the country's most over-priced schools) girls who, I think, thought bisexuality might be a good way to qualify as an "oppressed minority." So, do you view these people with the same amusement/disdain that blacks might have for whites who try too hard to be "down?" Or are they potential aides in this insidious homosexual agenda I keep hearing about?

[andygirl]

Originally posted by Space Vampire
Here's something I've wondered about... Do all you genuine, card-carrying homosexuals

Damn it, I never got a card! I want a card!

Andygirl, you live in the MA "five colleges" area, right? Ever been to Hampshire College?

Actually, I'm from Delaware and I go to Dartmouth, which is in Hanover, NH. It's about two hours away. I have recently visited, though, and Geobabe goes to Smith.

I knew a lot of hippie girls there who tried out lesbianism because "I love eeeeveryone!" So, do you view these people with the same amusement/disdain that blacks might have for whites who try too hard to be "down?"

I wouldn't presume to say that I feel the same way about people who are "bisexual" (quotes to indicate that they're not really bisexual) as blacks may in the analogy you describe.

I do, however, have an extremely large problem with Gay Until Graduation/trendy bisexual people. I've had bad experiences with girls who have jerked me around because they wanted to "see what kissing a girl was like." Yes, I'm bitter. I question the motives of people who do this, I feel they trivialize the queer movement, and I don't care to associate myself with anyone who is a GUG. I have friends who are bisexual who feel even more strongly about GUGs than I do. Many GLBT people, myself included, take personal offense towards such flippancy towards sexual orientation.

I should quantify this a little. Experimentation is well and good, and there's a distinct difference between being curious or confused about one's orientation and being a GUG. It's a question of motives and intentions, really.

Does this answer your question, or should I elaborate?

[nevermore]

this GUG thing caught my attention; it's like something I've noticed but never more than subconsciously, so you have to elaborate for me--you (Andygirl) said:
Experimentation is well and good, and there's a distinct difference between being curious or confused about one's orientation and being a GUG. It's a question of motives and intentions, really.
So, what are the motives/intentions of the GUGs? just to be rebellious or trendy? and do they really know they're not G/L/B while they're doing all this?? that's just hard for me to see; you'd think it would gross them out or something if they knew that really wasn't their orientation.

[Esprix]

Harumph. How come you don't see any male GUG's (at least, I've never met one). And drunken frat boys don't count - they're bi but refuse to admit it unless they're really, really drunk.

Regarding the OP, I think it trivializes the gay movement in one sense, but in another sense, isn't the movement supposed to be about the freedom to express yourself without fear of repraisal? Some hearts might get broken, or people might poo-poo someone's true motives, but that's the cost of living in a free society, and at the same time it's the reward. Knaamean?

I wish I were a woman sometimes - they just seem freer in this society, IMHO, to explore their sexuality than men do. (Not that they have a right to jerk other people around, mind you, just explore without so much social stigmatism.)

Esprix

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by Esprix
How come you don't see any male GUG's (at least, I've never met one).

Well, as a lesbian trapped in a man's body, I can honestly say I can't understand why any women put up with us! :d&r:

[RickJay]

I do, however, have an extremely large problem with Gay Until Graduation/trendy bisexual people. I've had bad experiences with girls who have jerked me around because they wanted to "see what kissing a girl was like." Yes, I'm bitter. I question the motives of people who do this, I feel they trivialize the queer movement, and I don't care to associate myself with anyone who is a GUG. I have friends who are bisexual who feel even more strongly about GUGs than I do. Many GLBT people, myself included, take personal offense towards such flippancy towards sexual orientation.

A while back I was at a big family dinner with my wife's family, and her flaky stepsister was engaging ina variety of fascinating political debates with us. At one point she said, "I mean, lesbians like me have to..."

I interrupted, "But Jen (not her real name), you aren't a lesbian."

She said, "Sure I am."

My wife said, "No you aren't."

Jen: "I am so."

My wife: "But you have a boyfriend. You've dated guys your whole life. You've never dated a woman. You were complaining to me about your last boyfriend that he wasn't good enough in bed."

Jen paused and said, "Well, there's being a spiritual lesbian, too."

[Enderw24]

Wow, RickJay, that makes so much sense!

Andygirl, I'm a lesbian in spirit! Now I can join your undead vampire Mcburger of the day club! When's the first meeting?

[zen101]

I dunno' about anyone else but the phrase "I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body." is one of the most grating phrases I ever hear on this topic.

[Sterra]

zen there is a valid reason for that statement. Some men want to become women and still have sex with other women. Now it may seem a bit unnecssary but thats what they want to do.

[Guinastasia]

I seemed to have noticed too that there's this trend towards bisexuality. Like now it's the "in" thing, and it's hip and with it.
Does that annoy you? I mean, if I were gay, I think I'd be annoyed. Like, what if someone decided it was with it to be Polish or soemthing?

[yosemite]

Originally posted by Asmodean
zen there is a valid reason for that statement. Some men want to become women and still have sex with other women. Now it may seem a bit unnecssary but thats what they want to do.

Yep. I know someone just like that. She (formerly he) "married" (had a ceremony) her girlfriend. After she'd had her sex change operation. If she had waited on the operation, she would have still been a he, and could have married the girlfriend legally. But I guess the timing wasn't right.

[zen101]

Originally posted by Asmodean
zen there is a valid reason for that statement. Some men want to become women and still have sex with other women. Now it may seem a bit unnecssary but thats what they want to do.

Ok, I would like to formally state that If I hear one more guy say he's a "lesbian trapped in a man's body." I will ask him how he feels about gender re-assignment prior to thinking he's a twit. Fair nuf? All kidding aside, I'm not talking about a TS or someone who wants to be a TS, I'm talking about the guy sitting next to me when I'm at a bar who is making this remark in response to his other buddies statement that "generic sexy lesbian" is hot.

Me, yeah I would like to try being a woman for maybe a month to a year and I would do pretty much everything sexual that a woman is capable of (maybe even make a baby) but I am not a lesbian trapped in a mans body. Also while I enjoy sex with women (or used to) and am attracted to women, I do not consider myself a lesbian. The statement is one of thos comments that is funny the first time and never again, as Manny would say to Mycroft "Mike, that one is a "Funny once". Not to be repeated.". Why do people still say it? It's about as funny as when you ask someone "whats up?" and the say "The sky/ceiling.".

I'm asking in the name of all that is good in the world, if you hear someone saying they are "a lsebian trapped in a man's body." and they are not in line for gender reassignment then please, please, kill them.

[Guinastasia]

Zen: that's pretty much how I feel while checking someone out, and when something fails to scan, they chortle, "It's FREE!" And laugh like hyenas and think they're so
original. Get a life!

[jmullaney]

Originally posted by zen101
I'm asking in the name of all that is good in the world, if you hear someone saying they are "a lsebian trapped in a man's body." and they are not in line for gender reassignment then please, please, kill them.
:eek: I'm glad I ducked&ran when I had the chance. It was an intentionally bad joke, and I'm more than happy with my organs where they are thankyou. I was trying to make a point, so I'll reinterate:

In a male dominated society, lust for a woman is much more pervasive and permitted than lust for a man.

To wit, you never hear a woman claim to be a "gay male trapped in a women's body."

I don't know if that is a valid point or not -- sorry to be so obtuse ealier -- but I think that is a valid response to Esprix's question. What do y'all think?

[Meephead]

Originally posted by jmullaney
[QUOTE]Originally posted by zen101
To wit, you never hear a woman claim to be a "gay male trapped in a women's body."


Well, I think Madonna said something like that at one time...

[Meephead]

OOPS! I meant:

Originally posted by jmullaney
To wit, you never hear a woman claim to be a "gay male trapped in a women's body."[/B]

Well, I think Madonna said something like that at one time....

[panache45]

Originally posted by yosemitebabe
Yep. I know someone just like that. She (formerly he) "married" (had a ceremony) her girlfriend. After she'd had her sex change operation. If she had waited on the operation, she would have still been a he, and could have married the girlfriend legally. But I guess the timing wasn't right.

So what, exactly, are you implying - that she should have remained "male" in order to have a "normal" marriage? That her own identity as a female was irrelevant? That her partner would have been equally attracted to her if she had remained male? That it's better to have a "legal" marriage, regardless of the people involved?

Of all the trivial, condescending statements in this thread, this is the most offensive.

[yosemite]

Originally posted by panache45

So what, exactly, are you implying - that she should have remained "male" in order to have a "normal" marriage? That her own identity as a female was irrelevant? That her partner would have been equally attracted to her if she had remained male? That it's better to have a "legal" marriage, regardless of the people involved?

Of all the trivial, condescending statements in this thread, this is the most offensive.

Oh heavens. Bad wording on my part.

"Normal" (in my context) = going to the Justice of the Peace or church, recognized by the State. All the benefits of state-recognized marriage. Which is what a lot of gay couples are fighting for, right?

I am not exactly sure of this person's timetable. I am not sure of when this person had the operation, but I got the impression that she was dating the woman with whom she had the ceremony, while still technically male. I wonder why she (while still technically a male) had put off the operation, been married at a Justice of the Peace or church, and then had the operation. Do you see where I'm going there? I think it's a bit of a pity that she couldn't have waited a few months for the operation...if indeed the timing was right. But I don't know for sure about the timing.

[andygirl]

Originally posted by nevermore
So, what are the motives/intentions of the GUGs? just to be rebellious or trendy? and do they really know they're not G/L/B while they're doing all this?? that's just hard for me to see; you'd think it would gross them out or something if they knew that really wasn't their orientation.


I'm going to try my best and explain what I view the difference to be. It's highly subjective, and again, if I'm not clear please let me know.

An example of a GUG: Girl had fight with boyfriend. She wanted to get back to him, and at a party several days later proceeded to flirt with an eventually make out with another female. (Who happened to be a 14-year-old me, but that's neither here nor there.)

In this case, what'shername did what she did to hurt her boyfriend. Sexual orientation wasn't the motive- power and hurt were.

In my mind, a GUG is someone who is motivated by something other than love/lust/confusion/curiosity. Weather it is to be trendy, rebellious, different, hurtful, what have you... they're not doing it out of same sex attraction, IMHO.

Esprix... I agree that women are a lot more fluid with sexuality than men. If I held hands with a female friend of mine, we wouldn't necessarily draw attention, but two men? That would cause comment.

Regarding the OP, I think it trivializes the gay movement in one sense, but in another sense, isn't the movement supposed to be about the freedom to express yourself without fear of repraisal?

I'm never quite sure. I don't even think there's a real "gay movement". Unless you count the yoga classes at the local muscle gym.

It does reek of "this is our movement, not yours," though, doesn't it? At the same time, I don't think that GUGs can be considered bisexual... sexual behavior doesn't equal sexual orientation.

[Esprix]

Agreed, andygirl.

I also agree with zen101 that "lesbian trapped in a man's body," said by a straight man, makes that man out to be the ass he truly is. I'd think any straight woman hearing that would roll her eyes, turn heel and walk away from such a git.

And Asmodean, as hard as it may be to comprehend, gender identity is a completely different topic from sexual orientation. Gender reassignment isn't "a bit unnecessary" when the woman is a lesbian. Try being a little more informed, and maybe you'll sound a little less ignorant.

Esprix

[Lamia]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
I seemed to have noticed too that there's this trend towards bisexuality. Like now it's the "in" thing, and it's hip and with it.
Does that annoy you? I mean, if I were gay, I think I'd be annoyed. Like, what if someone decided it was with it to be Polish or soemthing?


Yes, it is annoying. I think it's even worse than someone pretending to be Polish or whatever because pretending to be Polish would rarely cause other people real pain. Someone who (as andygirl put it) is portraying themselves as being gay or bisexual and is motivated by something other than "love/lust/confusion/curiosity" is guilty of what I would consider one of the lowest kinds of emotional manipulation.

[Guinastasia]

(I know, I just threw the Polish thing in there...)
To me, the idea of the hip, trendy bisexuality is kind of crass-not only through manipulation (and that, in my opinion, sucks), but it's kind of making sexuality out to be something silly, or trendy. It's culture appropriation at it's worst, and it's kind of demeaning as well.
It's probably a lot like a woman or man finding out their husband/wife is gay after years of marriage. It hurts and you feel lied to. Not that that's necessarily the same situation, but it's the same kind of feeling-he/she used me.