Gays, Sexual Addiction, and Foot in Mouth Disease

[Polycarp]

Once again, I seem to have stirred up some problems.

Over at the Pizza Parlor, I commented that anything that becomes an obsession, compulsion, focus of your life is probably a "besetting sin." And that recovering from such a thing is a long, hard process. And I think, allowing for the distinction that humanistic non-theists would use a different term than "sin," they would agree that good mental health requires exactly the same process.

Then I observed, the context for this having been an individual who was "gay and wants to be healed" (and no, not the person many of you are thinking of), that since gay people are generally considered a minority, "different" and misunderstood, by reason of their sexuality, they are, as a stereotypic rule, in greater danger of falling into a sexual addiction situation than the average straight person. To me, this meant no slam on any individual gay person or gay people as a class, simply that a anomie/stress situation involving one's sexuality can and probably does induce a "sexual addiction" situation that does need therapy. In my mind, there was a clear distinction between "he's gay" and "he's a gay sex addict," and the circumstances called for discussing the latter subcase. The whole thread was done in the context of the proper Christian response to a gay person.

JAB (under his nom-de-poste over there) picked up on this and found it offensive. And in retrospect I'm not sure it is not. The logic and psychology in it seems to me to be valid, and I have absolutely no intention of creating some sort of categorization rule that says "gay=sex addict" -- just that many gay people are at risk for sexual addiction for the reasons outlined.

So I'd welcome an analysis of the situation by gay posters and those with background in psychology (recognizing the groups overlap), and affirmation or correction of my thoughts.

[Gaudere]

What evidence do you have that gays are more likely to fall into sexual addiction? I think we might be able to say that gays tend to talk about their sexuality more than straights, but I find that entirely unsurprising; I never really have to mention my sexuality because I am straight and practically everyone assumes I am straight (Libertarian being a notable exception). I would also not be at all surprised to find that there are several dozen gays on this message board who very few know are gay, simply because they rarely mention that fact. If you don't mention your sexuality, people will generally assume you're straight, so I daresay these gays don't get included in your estimation of gay's attitudes towards their sexuality.

It may indeed be possible that the stress involved with having a sexuality that is often denigrated by society may lead to a greater obsession with that sexuality, and thus to sexual addiction. I have seen studies that show homosexual men have an average number of orgasms that is higher than that of heterosexual men, but that may simply be due to differences between the relative availability and willingness of partners and not indicative of an addicition; it's not as if we should assume that the number of orgasms heterosexual males have is "right" and any more than that is indicative of addiction, anyhow. Some aspects of gay sexuality could be interpreted as being indicative of addiction, when in fact they are not, as well: one sign of sexual addiction is shame and secrecy concerning the sex, and a homosexual may have that shame and secrecy foisted on him by society's attitudes rather than because he actually has an addiction with sex. I'd like to see some hard facts before I accept that homosexuals are more likely to be sex addicts. Does any person in a discrimnated minority invariably become more likely to be obsessive about the basis of that discrimination? Does the fact that pagan's beliefs about religion put them in the minority mean that they're more likely to have a religious obsession? Personally, while I know gays who talk a lot about sex, I haven't seen any behavior that I would consider indicative of addiction. Sure, you hear all about the gay guy who so obsessively cruises for anonymous sex in public parks that it interferes with the rest of his life, but I'm not sure that he's any more common than the married man who has multiple affairs even though he knows it will destroy his marriage. At least, I'm not going to assume it's necessarily any more common without further evidence.

[Mockingbird]

Gaudere, don't forget the heterosexual married man who is cruising for gay sex in the park or at a porn store. At least from my personal experience, that happens a LOT.

[Gaudere]

Hmm, I might have trouble calling him heterosexual if he is attracted to and actively seeking sex with men on a regular basis.

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by Gaudere
Hmm, I might have trouble calling him heterosexual if he is attracted to and actively seeking sex with men on a regular basis.

I should have put heterosexual in quotes. Still, it is prevalent.

Regarding the sexual addiction... it has been shown in studies that gay men are not as prone to a paraphelia because as we are outsiders and have such minor expectations societally, we have a more balanced perspective on sex and tend to mystify it less. Thus, while there are sexual addicts who are gay, they are in the same or slightly less proportion than heterosexuals.

[Gaudere]

Can you find any reference to these studies online? Unfortunately, when you enter "+homosexual +'sexual addiction'" in a search engine, you get a boatload of websites devoted to "curing gays" and it's been taking me a while to winnow through them to find any legitmate information on sexual addiction in gays versus straights.

[Spiritus Mundi]

I have to question your initial premise, Poly. I see no reason why being of a "minotiy" sexual orientation should correspond to a greater than average tendency to sexual fixation. Most fetishists that I have known personally (admittedly, hardly a scientific survey) trace the genesis of their attraction to a specific event of events, usually during childhood or early adolescence, that had no particular relation to their "orientation". Often, in fact, the "first cause" seemed to predate any real feeling of sexual attraction at all.

[Mockingbird]

Originally posted by Gaudere
Can you find any reference to these studies online? Unfortunately, when you enter "+homosexual +'sexual addiction'" in a search engine, you get a boatload of websites devoted to "curing gays" and it's been taking me a while to winnow through them to find any legitmate information on sexual addiction in gays versus straights.

I'm going off info that I have learned in my psych classes(I'm a psych major). What I do know is that paraphelia is covered in the DSM-4. That would be the first place I'd send someone.

[Polycarp]

Gaudere, Hastur, and S/M, thank you for the enlightenment.

As occasion permits, I'll amend my remarks on the subject over there to reflect what you've had to say. Hastur, if you have opportunity, I'd be interested in more background on paraphelia (as, I think, would other posters).

[DavisMcDavis]

I think your idea works with gay men, simply becase men are societally conditioned to be aggressive sexually. In a gay relationship or sexual encounter, you have two aggressive people so sex is more likely to occur when pursued than it is between, say, a straight guy trying to pick up chicks in a bar.

What's a guy who has lots of sex? A stud. A woman? A slut. I think things would change if you managed to identify the little gay boys and teach half of them the value of saying "Fiddle Dee Dee" and giggling behind a fan.

I don't know that lesbians are really in danger of sex addiction, but then I don't know many lesbians.

My example is shown in the following joke:
What does a lesbian bring on a sexond date?
Answer - All her luggage and a moving van.

What does a gay man bring on a second date?
Answer - What's a second date?

These are broad generalizations and are mostly an excuse for me to tell that joke.

[Gaudere]

Well, simply having more sex than average does not mean you are a sexual addict. IANAP, but sexual addiction is when a person's lack of sexual impulse control causes serious trouble in other areas of that person's life (job, family, friends) and the person is ashamed and secretive about the sex and feels s/he cannot control his/her sexual impulses. That's not an accurate description of a gay male who simply enjoys having a lot of casual sex.

[Lux Fiat]

Poly, I'm interested to hear your reasoning behind the idea that greater stress leads to sex addiction. Why not repression? Or just an ulcer? Even if the stress is related to one's status as a sexual being, I don't see how it follows that sex addiction is more likely.

[panache45]

Here are some thoughts based on my own history and other guys I've known.

Imagine being a teen-ager and having some very deep feelings, and all you get from society is "you're sick, you're bad, you're an abomination, you're a sinner, you should be ashamed of yourself, you're a freak, you're a fag, you're a queer, you're a pervert, you're a sodomite, you're going to burn in hell forever!" And you have nobody to turn to, because you don't know of any other gay people.

Then imagine, as you get older, gradually reaching out and discovering that you're not the only one after all. You find that these feelings you have are shared by millions of people just like you, and there doesn't have to be anything wrong or shameful or perverted.

Many people, at this time in their development, are so eager to throw off those old prohibitions, that they immerse themselves in a great deal of sexual activity. I did exactly that for a while, and I think it was a necessary part of my development, and I have no regrets. Most people eventually grow out of this and start to look for something more permanent.

I might add that many heterosexuals go through the exact same thing, if they're from very strict or puritanical backgrounds. Of course, there are some who become "addicted," just like there are people addicted to any other type of activity. I don't think the "addiction" has anything to do with sexual orientation.

And I certainly don't think gay men obsess about sex any more than straight men do.

[jab1]

This was one of the most honorable things I have ever seen anyone do, Polycarp Bravo.

You will always have my respect.

[Polycarp]

Thank you very much, JAB. I like to work with the facts, the data, and not preconceived notions.

For those of you who questioned why in the world I'd come to this idea anyway, I refer you to Panache's post above, particularly the fourth paragraph, which tracks out my line of thinking. However, I didn't take the additional steps to conclude what Freyr's post and Panache's concluding notes make clear.

And I've corrected my remarks over on the Parlor to reflect what I've learned.

[Amok]

Well, this is a bit off-topic, but... A question is only valid if the concepts it relies on are valid. As such, the question "Are gays more likely to experience sexual addiction?" is only valid if there are such things as "gays" and "sexual addiction".

Now, I don't think anyone here will argue the fact that homosexuality exists, and that it is a valid concept, but does sexual addiction exist? I honestly don't know, but I am skeptical. I'm not a pyschologist nor a pyschiatrist (nor a good speller), and I can't claim to be particulary learned in the field, but I do think questioning the existance of sexual addiction is fair game. Going simply by the American Heritage, Third Edition (not a specialized medical dictionary, I'll freely admit) addiction is:


Compulsive physiological need for a habit-forming substance.



Ignoring the fact that sex is not a substance, can a person have a "compulsive physiological need" for sex? From the use of the word "physiological" rather than, say, psychological, I infer that the need can not be entirely mental. In other words, it is not enough that a person has a strong desire to engage in sex, even to the point of ignoring other possibly necessicary activities, they must also have a physical reaction that results from not engaging in sex.

Is it possible for a person to experience that? And if not, is my definition of addiction valid, or am I setting up a straw man by my use of a standard defintion rather than a specialized one?

[Gaudere]

Despite the dictionary defintion, "addiction" as a psychiatric term can also include psychological addiction. A person addicted to gambling may not have physical withdrawal symptoms (although they may as well, but they're almost certainly psychosomatic), but they need to gamble so badly they will lose all their money, their job, alienate their family and basically ruin their life just becuase they can't stop gambling. Similarily, persons addicted to sex may need to have sex so badly they allow it to significantly interfere with their job and relationships, and they feel profoundly guilty about their actions yet out-of-control and unable to stop. Sexual addiction can also include things like voyerism and exhibitionism; they're not indicative of an addiction if the desire can be reasonably controlled, but if you can't hold a job because you can't keep from flashing your co-workers, well, you gots a problem. ;)

[Freyr]

Polycarp wrote:

For those of you who questioned why in the world I'd come to this idea anyway, I refer you to Panache's post above, particularly the fourth paragraph, which tracks out my line of thinking. However, I didn't take the additional steps to conclude what Freyr's post and Panache's concluding notes make clear.

Whoops! This is my first post here so I'm not sure why you're referring to me. Prehaps you mean Hastur?

FYI, I agree with Panache45's assessment in his posting you refer to. I went thru a similar phase when I first came out in the late 70s & early 80s.

As for the OP, two questions:

1) does sexual addiction actually exist? I can see that it does in the same way as alcoholism, etc, but are there any hard statistics on it? Is it really sexual addiction or is constant sexual contact a symptom of some other, psychological problem, like low self-esteem.

2) how do you measure this sexual addiction? Is a married man who has sex (in this case, sex with orgasm for one or both partners) with his wife 14 times a week (twice a night) sexually addicted? What about a gay man who goes out and has 3 sexual encounters (with different partners) per night (see definition above) yet only does this twice a week (total of 6). In both cases, their professional life doesn't suffer, so is either one an "addict" ??

I think if you follow the basic guideline of "safe, sane, consensual" before "doing it" everything's fine. Now if you're doing so much you can't keep a job... then there might be something to this.

FYI, safe means don't transmit diseases. If you do find yourself infected, get yourself cured. If a cure isn't possible, inform your partners, they have a right to know.

Sane means think about what you're doing, ESPECIALLY if you've used mind-altering substances before hand.

Consensual; does your partner agree with this? You may think doing it whilst on a (non-moving) motorbike is the ultimate scene, but your partner may not. If not, try to find common ground.

[Polycarp]

Helpful answer, Freyr. And yes, I did mean Hastur -- I didn't have the thread up when composing the answer, and misattributed the response to you. Apologies to both of you for that.

Regarding the reality of "sexual addiction" -- you, Freyr, would I think be the first to admit that psychological classifications can be slippery things to work with. But by the term I meant "an inordinate preoccupation with matters sexual in nature, to the extent that they interfere with other aspects of a person's life that are important to him/her, and have characteristics of obsessiveness or compulsion with reduced will to resist the opportunity to indulge the preoccupation." As such, it's not quantifiable: to use Gaudere's analogy to gambling, a multimillionare who makes occasional $10,000 bets may very well not be "addicted to gambling" -- he can spare it -- while a woman who plays dollar-a-card bingo seven nights a week, and shortchanges necessary expenses to afford it, may very well be addicted, even though her annual gambling expenses are an order of magnitude less than one bet by the multimillioniare. A man who looks at porn sites at work contrary to company policy, or who puts a relationship at risk for repeated sexual flings, may well be sexually addicted. A woman who endures an abusive relationship for the sake of the good sex may be addicted. And so on.

I stand ready to be corrected on this as well.

[Navigator]

The National Council on Sexual Addiction and Compulsivity (http://www.ncsac.org/definitions.html)

Recommended Readings (same site) (http://www.ncsac.org/reading.htm)

Yahoo directory on Sexual Addiction (http://dir.yahoo.com/Health/Diseases_and_Conditions/Sexual_Addiction/)

HTH.

[andygirl]

Something I've observed...

Imagine, if you will, a deeply closeted teenager. Most teens who are gay are deeply closeted- although people are coming out earlier and earlier (I was out at 14), there are many more who do not acknowledge/act upon their feelings until late teens/early twenties.

Take closeted gay teen (oh, let's call him George) and place him in a standard college. All of the sudden, George is in a place where his parents cannot keep tabs on him. Depending on location, he might not be near anyone he knows from home, so his actions at college will not get back to mom and dad. George starts going to the school's gay straight alliance.

All at once, George meets lots of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and trans people who are in the various stages of coming out, who know what he has gone through, who sympathize with his problems.

George becomes overwhealmed by his sudden immersion in gay culture.

George sees a cute boy at the GSA meeting. For the first time, he has someone who is gay and shows interest. They date, one thing leads to another, and they have sex very quickly. Soon afterwards, they realize that they're not compatible at all and break up.

Now, it's been my observation that gay teens, when faced with this situation, will repeat the same mistake over and over- start dating/sleeping with someone because they too are gay and... well, honestly, the first few times someone of the same gender shows interest, it's... scary. Overwhealming. Lots of things that I can't really describe.

It's very easy to date someone just because they're gay. It's very easy to sleep with them, too. It's also very easy to get an STD from this, and I can't begin to describe my bitterness at having to take so many of my friends to get tested because they got caught up in the moment. For some people, unfortunately, it takes a long while before they learn that you have to go on something more than common sexual orientation.

Did I do this? Yes. Before I got into a real relationship, I swapped spit with a few girls who showed interest. Invariably, though, they were scared off by the prospect of a lesbian relationship, so it never went past kissing. (Thank God... I'm glad I waited.) I don't know if I would have gone so far as to have sex with a girl who showed enough interest, but I do know a lot of gay kids who have. I'd like to think I wouldn't have, but... it was such an affirmation to have that first girl kiss me back and tell me I was pretty. I was 15 and I thought that no girl would ever want to be with me, and at that moment in time I would have moved the earth for her.

Same sex dating is fundamentally different from heterosexual dating in a lot of ways. I hope that it makes sense when I say that in a lot of cases, promiscuity in gay people (at least among teens, which is the culture I know best) oftentimes springs from that overwhealming culture shock that happens after you come out or start dating.

I do think that gay culture- especially some aspects of it (the bar/club scene) are hypersexualized. More so with gay men than with lesbians, I think. And I would agree that being homosexual/bisexual/trans does make one think about sexuality far more than heterosexuals might. The heterosexual construct of our society lends itself to that.

Polycarp, I hope you find my answer helpful.

[Freyr]

PolyCarp wrote:

Regarding the reality of "sexual addiction" -- you, Freyr, would I think be the first to admit that psychological classifications can be slippery things to work with. But by the term I meant "an inordinate preoccupation with matters sexual in nature, to the extent that they interfere with other aspects of a person's life that are important to him/her, and have characteristics of obsessiveness or compulsion with reduced will to resist the opportunity to indulge the preoccupation."

Basically, PolyC, I agree with you. I was trying to say the same thing, pinning down a definition is hard and merely observing behavior isn't always reliable.

When a person is having lots of sex, especially to the detriment of other parts of their life, then yes, that's addiction. But is it because they're addicted to THE ACT (the feeling an orgasm gives them) or are they trying to use sex to substitute for something in their life they feel is missing; ie LOVE or APPROVAL. That's the point I was trying to make.

An interesting side note; can one become addicted to the physical act of orgasm, the rush you experience (ahem) cum?

[Navigator]

Originally posted by Freyr
But is it because they're addicted to THE ACT (the feeling an orgasm gives them) or are they trying to use sex to substitute for something in their life they feel is missing; ie LOVE or APPROVAL. That's the point I was trying to make.

More the latter and less the former. Like any other addiction. Cyclical.

Empty feeling.
Reach for a habit to get your 'good feeling fix'.
Let down after high.
Depressed that you 'did it again'.
Goto first step, repeat...

[Polycarp]

Andy and Freyr, thanks (again) for the astute observations.

With response to your final question, Freyr, I think to a certain extent (almost) everyone is -- the sense of pressure/release that constitutes one's sex drive could easily be interpreted in such terms. Most people develop a "need to come" in early adolescence (or sometimes earlier -- I once knew a 2-year-old who masturbated on a regular basis -- it felt good, and he saw no problem with it). (This is failing to take into account that for most people, it's a normal, integrated part of their daily life that does not conflict with the remainder of it, and hence is not an "addiction" in the need-to-treat-for-mental-health sense. However, I am addicted to breathing, eating, and drinking -- I could probably stop if I tried, but I formed these habits shortly after birth....) :) And that is not quite as funny as I've made it out to be. The line is, as we agree, slippery. What one person might consider a healthy sex life, another might consider overdoing it and focusing too much on it. (Marriage counselor, anyone?)

The viewpoint of someone who is voluntarily celibate might help to analyze this further. So far as I know, though, the only regular poster who has chosen a celibate lifestyle is Tris.

One comment might be that almost every "addiction" is the obsession with some single aspect of a normal, healthy life. Even drugs are an attempt to stimulate endorphin production, or the brain chemicals that bring surcease from constant pain, or whatever the drug in question's function is. And on this, I don't draw a line between physical and psychological addictions.

Your thoughts?

[Amok]

Gaudere wrote:
Despite the dictionary defintion, "addiction" as a psychiatric term can also include psychological addiction.


Fair enough.

Having said that, though, my own opinion on the matter is that psychological and physiological addiction are two different problems, and they should probably each have their own word, so as not to confuse the issue. My reasoning is that substances which a person can become physiologically addicted to are inherently addictive; cocaine is addictive, tobacco is addictive and so forth. And while the reasons people begin to take drugs are not always clear, a big reason as to why they keep taking them once they realize they're damaging their life is clear: the physiological consequences of not taking the drug they're addicted to.

Gambling or sex, on the other hand, are not addictive. And talking of "gambling addiction" or "sexual addiction" unfairly gives those activities a bad name, as if there is something about them that draws people to them in an addictive way. Which I don't believe to be the case.

Without getting too personal, I've had some experience with psychological addiction. It was (and is) relatively minor, such that I've been able to lead a halfway normal life, but if you replace "matters sexual in nature" in Polycarp's definition above with a few other things, I believe I would qualify (either currently or at one time, depending on what you replace it with). Certainly my own "addiction" to a few things has caused me problems in my life that I would have perferred not to experience. And at times I did wonder if I was addicted to whatever was occupying my interest to the point of obsession at that time. What I realized, and what I believe is true, at least for me, is that I was not neglecting areas of my life that were important due to an obsession with something, but rather I was neglecting areas of my life that were important due to my desire (for whatever reason) not to deal with those areas, and that I dove into something else to occupy my time and divert my thoughts from what I didn't want to think about. And indeed the things I have been "addicted" to have changed over time, one obession replacing another, confirming to me that the issue is not an inordinate desire to do something, but rather to ignore the things I "should" be doing.

While it's easy for me to take my experience and extrapolate from it to a universal reason for pyshcological addiction, I'm certainly not so arrogant as to believe that is the reason everyone might have these problems. However, I'm also egotistical enough to believe that I am correct in diagnosing my problem, and that I'm not so different from others that there aren't some people who experience these problems for the same reason I do.

[Gaudere]

I think you're right that for some people it's the specific thing they are addicted to, and for others it is that they are using the obsession to compensate for something, and pretty much any obsession would do. In fact, it's a problem with helping some people, since you get them off one addiction and they just latch on to another since the underlying psychological needs haven't been fixed. People can be both physically and psychologically addicted to physically addicting substances; you may get over a physical cocaine addiciton, but if you still psychologically need some sort of "high" to avoid other issues in your life, you may grab onto another addiction like sex or gambling. And then when you feel guilty about gambling, you decide your life is so miserable that you may as well start with coke again...

I think most physical addictions also have an element of psychological addiction; no one's forcing you to take cocaine, you could just take it in small enough doses that you never suffer withdrawal symptoms, like people who can drink a beer or three and then stop. There *are* people who take addictive drugs recreationally only, although with highly addictive substances the potential to become physically addicted after just a few uses is much higher. But if you really need that high, you'll take the coke in bigger and bigger doses and you won't be able to stop even *before* you're physically addicted, even if you know you're going to become physically addicted if you keep it up. A while ago there was some talk about "addictive personalities"; people predisposed to addiction, regardless of the substance that they actually become addicted to.

I don't have a problem with referring to "gambling addiction" or "sexual addiction" because although I think the underlying psychological need could often probably be shifted over to a suitable substitute, that's the particular manifestation we actually see. With some people, that specific addiction may have features that they cannot get from any other substance, so they're unlikely to shift to another substance--for example, a person who was sexually abused may *only* be susceptable to sexual addiction (although people who were sexually abused are overrepresented amoung addicted persons of *all* substances, IIRC)--with others, their needs are broad-based enough that they may latch onto anything available.