Can my boss force me to sit in painful chair?

[Green Cymbeline]

My office recently moved to a new building and my boss got us new chairs. The building is 200 years old and she wants everything to fit the style of the old building. Therefore the chairs are these wooden, old-fashioned chairs that are EXTREMELY uncomfortable. Last week was our first week in the new place, and sitting in the new chair killed my back. My back ached all day, all week. I sit at a computer for 8 hours a day and I need a comfortable chair...

So today I brought in my own chair*, and e-mailed her telling her that the old chair hurt my back, and that I brought a new chair.

She responds:I would prefer that you bring in a cushion/pillow for your back. Please try that as I do not want everyone bringing in their own chairs.A cushion wouldn't make any difference. The main problem is the arms on the chair, which means I can't pull my chair all the way in, and therefore am forced to slump over to use the mouse and keyboard, instead of sitting up straight, like I can when I am pulled all the way in.

Several of my coworkers said they were very uncomfortable in their chairs too, but (in my opinion) are too scared of my boss to say anything - she is very difficult to deal with (* this is the reason I didn't ask her to provide me with a new chair, because I knew she would be resistant, so I just brought my own).

My question to you folks is, isn't there a requirement under federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration rules that employers provide their employees with an ergonomic environment as to avoid injury and pain?

My boss can't make me sit in a chair that causes me pain, can she??

Please provide me with any relevant cites that I can use to defend the use of my own chair.

[ratatoskK]

I had a manager once like that. We were in a bullpen in an old insurance building with 20-foot high ceilings and no desk lights. I needed more light and brought in a light from home. She told me to take away the light. I told her I needed more light. She told me to file a worker's comp claim. So I filed it. Trouble ensued.

[ivylass]

IANAL, but I would imagine if you've told her sitting in this particular chair is not comfortable for you and is making it difficult for you to do your job, and she does nothing about it, you would have a valid complaint. I would recommend you follow up again, stating that a cushion will not help, and maybe if several of you go together and calmly explain the situation, she might listen. She can't very well call all of you whiners, can she?

Start documenting everything now. Do you have an HR department? One of my co-workers has a special ergo-chair because of his carpal tunnel.

[Harriet the Spry]

How large is your company? Employment laws often exempt companies below a certain number of employees, so this will be relevant to the answer.

[Green Cymbeline]

Thanks guys, so I do have some right here!

I have been looking around for information on OSHA rules regarding desks and chairs and found this: OSHA eTools: Computer Workstations (http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/index.html), however it seems to just be a list of suggestions or guidelines.

Ivylass, we don't have an HR department... we are a small company with just my boss (the president) and about 10 employees.

It just really irks me that my boss cares more about how her office looks than the health and productivity of her employees. But then it doesn't surprise me at all. I knew this would become a big battle. It's not like I asked her to buy me a special expensive chair - I brought my own, for god's sake. :rolleyes:

[casdave]

In the UK you cannot be made to sit in uncomrtable and unadjustable chairs, especially in the case of a computer workstation.

I might be inclined to ask if she had workstaion assessments carried out and demand to see the report - its obvious she has not carried out a risk assessment.

In the UK were are rather less inclined to sue, however this is one of those cases where we would, and we would win.

You need to go through a process, send a letter statong that the chairs are unsuitable for the purpose, it doesn't matter if they are adequate for others this has no bearing at all, the seating for your workstaion must be suitable for the user who is at the workstation.

You also need to ask to see the workstation assessments, again in writing.

You also need to say in writing why these chairs are unsuitable for you, however since you have also mentioned that the arms are non-adjustable, they are clearly not fit for the purpose.
You might ask to see the literature that states what purpose they are actually designed for, becuase they are clearly not for use at a computor workstation.

That should be enough to make her worry, if not, its time you thought about going to your medical practioner and get all the facts recorded.

Then go see your lawyer.

I will also add that if you cannot get your chair adjusted to your working position, this can manifest itself as injuries to arms, shoulders back and neck, but an osteopath will put you in the right track - BTW, a cushion is simply not a suitable alternative - what happens when it goes missing etc etc.

In the meantime, there is loads of information for you, look under 'workstation assessment' or 'DSE assessment', or 'workstation ergonomics'

http://www.shopergo.com/ergologin_2_0/OCW.aspx

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/checklist.html

I'll add, this isn't a trivial work issue, you could end up with permanent injury if you do not get this resolved.

[Green Cymbeline]

I'll add, this isn't a trivial work issue, you could end up with permanent injury if you do not get this resolved.
THANK YOU casdave. This is important to me because I just can't be productive if I am not comfortable... and I think it's awful how my boss just blows this off.

[ivylass]

You know what? I would keep my own chair and not say anything else. You told her the chair was uncomfortable and hurting your back, and her solution (a cushion) will not work for you.

So, sit in your own chair. If she forces you back to the uncomfortable chair, then, my children, we will have a ball game.

[Green Cymbeline]

You know what? I would keep my own chair and not say anything else. You told her the chair was uncomfortable and hurting your back, and her solution (a cushion) will not work for you.

So, sit in your own chair. If she forces you back to the uncomfortable chair, then, my children, we will have a ball game.
Yes indeed, this is my plan. I won't let her bully me. Thanks for your support & advice so far, everyone.

[AuntiePam]

Tell her you'll give up your chair when she installs gas lighting. And a privy.

Silly bint. Sounds like she doesn't have enough to occupy her time.

[Green Cymbeline]

Silly bint. Sounds like she doesn't have enough to occupy her time.
You're very observant!

The sad thing is, 4 other people told me they hate their chairs too, but they're all too scared of my boss to say anything... she's just so difficult and unpleasant to deal with.

[ivylass]

So, tell them not to say anything, just bring in their own chairs. They all have the same complaint as you.

Just out of curiousity...does Boss Lady have one of these uncomfortable chairs?

[Green Cymbeline]

So, tell them not to say anything, just bring in their own chairs. They all have the same complaint as you.
They're not that "daring"... they're very compliant and timid, just like my boss likes.

Just out of curiousity...does Boss Lady have one of these uncomfortable chairs?
Good question... I don't think so but I'll have to peek in after she leaves to see.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Your workplace is doing it wrong. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnS49c9KZw8)

[Sauron]

As luck would have it, I work for an office furniture distributor. If you're comfortable sharing with me your boss' address, I can send her (anonymously, even!) several publications on ergonomics in the workplace.

[garygnu]

There has to be modern, semi-ergonomic chairs in the style the boss wants. How about this one (http://www.officechairsforless.com/Store/Scripts/prodView~idproduct~75.htm), or this one (http://www.officechairsforless.com/Store/Scripts/prodView~idproduct~245.htm) named after Martha Washington?

[Green Cymbeline]

As luck would have it, I work for an office furniture distributor. If you're comfortable sharing with me your boss' address, I can send her (anonymously, even!) several publications on ergonomics in the workplace.
Great idea, I'd appreciate it! I will PM you..... :D

[Cervaise]

Tell her you'll give up your chair when she installs gas lighting. And a privy.And some Negroes.

[ivylass]

They're not that "daring"... they're very compliant and timid, just like my boss likes.



Well, then, you can't fight their battles for them. You go sit in your comfy chair and fret no more.

[Yllaria]

. . .
Just out of curiousity...does Boss Lady have one of these uncomfortable chairs?
Enquiring minds want to know.

If she doesn't - swapping your old chair out would be petty and childish and would not help one bit. But it's fun to think about.

[DiosaBellissima]

And some Negroes.

Friggin' Affirmative Action! *stumbles off, muttering*







;)

[alphaboi867]

Tell her you'll give up your chair when she installs gas lighting. And a privy.

Silly bint. Sounds like she doesn't have enough to occupy her time.

They didn't have gas lighting 200 years ago. You'll have to rely on windows, candles, and oil lamps. And no computors or typewriters they aren't in the "style of the building either", do everything by hand. ;)

[Zebra]

Gee, does your boss get mad when you try to put more coal in the furnace?

[thirdwarning]

Maybe you could just cut the arms off the chair she wants you to use? Then you could pull it in close enough to your workstation.

:D

[Gangster Octopus]

I'd honestly be complaining more about the 18th century style computers you are probably forced to use.

[eleanorigby]

Do you have to work on Christmas? Do you have a son named Tim?


Sounds to me like boss lady is not the best boss in the world. If all 5 of you band together and confront her (nicely), she's bound to do something.

[Mangetout]

Depending on how seriously the boss takes all of this, you might win the short term battle of getting the chair you need - you might also provide the precedent your co-workers require to get their proper seating too, but in the long run, you might lose out. If the boss develops a grudge about this, you could end up being given subtly crappy treatment as punishment, or even find yourself out of a job, for some reason conspuicuously *other than* the chair dispute.

I'm not saying all bosses do this, but bosses with judgment poor enough to make them insist their staff sit on uncomfortable furniture just because it looks nice, are probably somewhat more prone to taking it personally and harbouring a grudge in that way.

ETA: I'm not suggesting you should just put up with the discomfort though - just that trying to deal with it might lead to other undesired outcomes.

[Mindfield]

I'd honestly be complaining more about the 18th century style computers you are probably forced to use.

"Would someone mind dispatching a memo to the IT department? It's been three days and they still haven't fixed my difference engine!"*

Yeah, in Canada I'd have to say that being forced to sit in potentially damaging chairs would probably be a violation of the Occupational Health & Safety act, though in my brief skimming I couldn't find anything explicit about office furniture, just that an employer must tend to their employees' health and safety, which would amount to the same thing if said chairs were pain-inducing.



* Yes, I know even that's slightly anachronistic.

[Malodorous]

I'd honestly be complaining more about the 18th century style computers you are probably forced to use.

You think the Board lags on modern computers, try trying to access it on a coal powered computational engine.

[Cat Whisperer]

I feel your pain, nyctea. Well, actually, I feel my *own* pain, from working at a table with a non-ergonomic chair, doing data entry all day. My husband the safety officer tells me that not only are Alberta employees allowed to not work under those conditions, but we are *obligated* to not injure ourselves. I tell him that if I refuse to work in conditions that are hurting my back, neck and arms, I will be fired (I'm a temp). They won't fire me for refusing to work; they'll just make something else up, and away I go. The laws don't always mean that much.

[gardentraveler]

I hope you're searching for a different job while you're struggling with this. No one should have to work for a company where employees are treated like this. Even if your boss isn't willing to, you should also consider the potential long-term damage you could be doing to yourself by working in such an uncomfortable setting. Is having this job worth risking your health? (Of course, I have no idea where you live, what kinds of skills you have, what other personal considerations might be involved, but if job hunting is an option, you should go for it.)

As others have mentioned, these health issues should be covered under workers' compensation insurance, but it's my understanding that these types of conditions are typically the most difficult to prove. And even if you can prove it, is it worth the impact on your health? You could, I hope, remind your boss that workers' comp claims could increase her premiums.

The bottom line is: do you want to continue working for a company that doesn't value its employees?

GT

[AskNott]

There are some workarounds, if the arms are the problem. If there is a kneehole drawer, take it out. If not, park the keyboard and mouse pad in the pulled-out drawer. Failing that, put the whole desk on 3-inch blocks, or saw a bit off the chair legs.

[ivylass]

Can the height of the chair be lowered, so you can slide the arms underneath the desk?

[Q.N. Jones]

Easy solution:

Go to your doctor and explain the situation. Ask her for a note saying that your back pain requires you to use a more ergonomic chair with back support. Most doctors are very accommodating about things like this. Take it to your boss. She cannot legally refuse a reasonable accommodation for a medical condition.

[Projammer]

Hey. At least you get a chair.

I'm having to share a bench with two other guys.

And have you ever tried to type with your wrists manacled to an oar?



But at least the captain hasn't mentioned wanting to ski today.

[Harriet the Spry]

Easy solution:

Go to your doctor and explain the situation. Ask her for a note saying that your back pain requires you to use a more ergonomic chair with back support. Most doctors are very accommodating about things like this. Take it to your boss. She cannot legally refuse a reasonable accommodation for a medical condition.

Under which law? If you mean the Americans with Disabilities Act, that only applies to employers with 15 or more employees.

As far as legal requirements, the OP is probably going to need to look to state law for protection on this, if it in fact exists.

Investigating your legal rights is a good idea, but make sure you get the facts. Not everything that maybe should be illegal is actually illegal. From what I could see on the Virginia OSH and Worker's Comp sites, this is unlikely to be a priority. From VIOSH ""...adequately assure...that no employee will suffer material impairment of health or functional capacity." [§ 40.1-22(5) of the Code of Virginia]. Yeah, that could be interpreted to cover your situation, but when you compare it to people who are literally disabled after years of factory work with 100s of other workers at the same risk, a backache from an uncomfortable chair is unlikely to get quick action. Also, Virginia Worker's Comp explicitly excludes many back conditions (which gave me a serious WTF?, but there it is.)

I would suggest asking to meet with your boss to let her know you are serious about this, and want to find an option that works for both of you. Are you willing to explore removing the arms from the other chair? Look up some ergonomics stuff that illustrates exactly what the problem is with the other chair.

[Swallowed My Cellphone]

Hey. At least you get a chair.

I'm having to share a bench with two other guys.You get a bench??? Luxury! We have to sit on the cobble stone floor and chisel our documents into stone with a rock and a rusty nail.

[Q.N. Jones]

Under which law? If you mean the Americans with Disabilities Act, that only applies to employers with 15 or more employees.

Oops, missed where she said how many employees there are.

It is still worth trying anyway, if only because it would shame most employers into allowing the chair, regardless of any legal basis for enforcement.

I work in a company of less than 10 employees. The power of group shaming in such an environment can be powerful. If I were refused the accommodation after getting a doctor's note, I'd enlist my co-workers in complaining about it, loudly and frequently. That's been our secret weapon in changing our boss's mind on issues he's unreasonable about. I had a similar problem with the mouse setup at the computer I use. It was aggravating my carpal tunnel and slowing down my work. Still, he didn't want to pay $50 or so for a new, cordless mouse to solve the issue. Eventually, he just got sick of hearing about it all the time and caved.

[Trunk]

I love that 'get a cushion" solution. Like it's just the hardness of the chair that is a problem, not the depth of the seat, angle of recline, back-support, height, width, arm location, etc.

Having a good chair is a really big deal. Every six months or so, we get a company email asking us if our workstations are OK. . .chairs, mice, keyboards, monitors, etc. They actually brought in 10 test chairs for us one time. We got to sit in each of them briefly, and then could bring any of them to our office to try it for a day. Yes, please.

I know it's always easy for an outsider to say, "find a new job", but I'd seriously start looking.

[Dangerosa]

Is it a growing company (and Harriet, does the 15 employees include herself?)

Because "about ten" employees (could be eleven or twelve) plus herself and a growing company could put her quickly into OSHA/ADA territory. Which could provide you a little leverage (or a least a feeling that you'll have some leverage shortly).

On the other hand, a "about ten person" company that is eight plus her and hasn't hired a new body if four years - you are in "negotiated settlement" or "leave" territory. Cause she CAN make you sit in a painful chair.

[Mama Tiger]

I second the vote for a doctor's note. I've gone that route myself, and it's almost always successful.

The one time it wasn't (because I was a new employee and the witch of an office manager insisted I couldn't bring in my own chair because of liability issue-- yeah, right -- and wanted me to be there for six months before she'd buy me a decent chair), I got around it by bringing in the ugliest, nastiest old back cushion I could find, and then liberally wrapped it with ugly duct tape to make sure its hideousness was unavoidable, and then used giant rubber bands to strap it to the back of my uncomfortable chair, making her lovely neat office look totally cheap and crappy. Especially to the clients who were always coming in.

Amazingly, within a week she'd managed to find me a terrific ergonomic chair from the company down the hall that had gone out of business and they'd bought a bunch of furniture from. And that chair was so comfortable that when I left the company to go back to working at home, I asked if I could buy it, and when she asked for $15 (!!) for it I think I ran back to my desk and plunked the cash down on her desk on the spot. That was several years ago and I'm sitting in that chair as I type this.

Don't give in. There's always a way around it. Use whatever tools you can come up with. And since you have your own chair there now, just make sure it's well marked as your personal property so it can't magically "disappear" one night!

[Harriet the Spry]

and Harriet, does the 15 employees include herself?

Here's the ADA legalese on that: The term ``employer'' means a person engaged in an industry affecting commerce who has 15 or more employees for each working day in each of 20 or more calendar weeks in the current or
preceding calendar year ...

If the boss is an employee of the owner, the boss would count in the 15. If the boss is the owner, I'm not sure if she would count or not.

OSHA seems to cover all workplaces, at least with respect to things like requiring fire extinguishers and unlocked doors. The issue with that is not number of employees but rather bigger fish to fry. Also, I didn't see any clear standards about chairs and desks like there are for things like ventilation and exits.

Good ergonomics is good business. It helps productivity and reduces lost time. Hopefully the OP can get her boss to see this. As much as it may seem stupid to you, I recommend expressing your understanding for her concerns about the look of the office. And having all employees bring in their own chairs really isn't a good option. But I do realize there are chairs that are just not suitable for typing all day.

Best of luck getting this negotiated successfully.

[Green Cymbeline]

I hope you're searching for a different job while you're struggling with this. No one should have to work for a company where employees are treated like this. Even if your boss isn't willing to, you should also consider the potential long-term damage you could be doing to yourself by working in such an uncomfortable setting. Is having this job worth risking your health? (Of course, I have no idea where you live, what kinds of skills you have, what other personal considerations might be involved, but if job hunting is an option, you should go for it.)

As others have mentioned, these health issues should be covered under workers' compensation insurance, but it's my understanding that these types of conditions are typically the most difficult to prove. And even if you can prove it, is it worth the impact on your health? You could, I hope, remind your boss that workers' comp claims could increase her premiums.

The bottom line is: do you want to continue working for a company that doesn't value its employees?

GT
Thank you for this, gardentraveler. This is the latest in a long line of incidents which show that she doesn't value us... I have been thinking about starting to look for something new for a while... and I plan to get started on it soon. You're right, no one deserves to be treated like this!

[Green Cymbeline]

Easy solution:

Go to your doctor and explain the situation. Ask her for a note saying that your back pain requires you to use a more ergonomic chair with back support. Most doctors are very accommodating about things like this. Take it to your boss. She cannot legally refuse a reasonable accommodation for a medical condition.
Very good suggestion... I may just do this.

[Green Cymbeline]

Is it a growing company (and Harriet, does the 15 employees include herself?)

Because "about ten" employees (could be eleven or twelve) plus herself and a growing company could put her quickly into OSHA/ADA territory. Which could provide you a little leverage (or a least a feeling that you'll have some leverage shortly).

On the other hand, a "about ten person" company that is eight plus her and hasn't hired a new body if four years - you are in "negotiated settlement" or "leave" territory. Cause she CAN make you sit in a painful chair.
Yes actually we may be approaching 15. It changes a lot because there is a lot of turnover (big surprise).