Does it bug you when people live down to negative stereotypes?

[Speaker for the Dead]

I fancy myself to be tolerant. I try to judge people on their actions, not their affiliations, from gender to religion. Part of this is remembering that stereotypes don't apply to many, or most, members of a group. As such, I find it really frustrating when people do act out all the negative images of their race/gender/creed/sexuality.

For example, the aboriginal reserve near my city is having major problems with drug and alcohol binges because the compensation money for the abuses at the residential schools has arrived. This is exactly what many, many people around me expected to happen, just because they were "Indians"--they couldn't be expected to do anything else. Now they have that much more ammunition against people who don't deserve a bad reputation, but have one because of a number of idiots.

Has anyone else had this happen? It upsets me, not because it challenges my opinions, but because it seems to reinforce the bigotry around me.

[Leaffan]

Perhaps understanding the reasons behind the drug and alcohol abuse on reserves would come a long way in helping your reinforced bigotry.

It's a bleak existence with unemployment, poverty, and continued subjugation by mainstream society.

We all know that they don't need to live on the reserve. But that's where family and friends are and it's vicious circle we've helped create for them.

I feel sorrow, personally.

[Speaker for the Dead]

Perhaps understanding the reasons behind the drug and alcohol abuse on reserves would come a long way in helping your reinforced bigotry.

It's a bleak existence with unemployment, poverty, and continued subjugation by mainstream society.

We all know that they don't need to live on the reserve. But that's where family and friends are and it's vicious circle we've helped create for them.

I feel sorrow, personally.
I'm glad another Canadian responded. It hurts me to see this, especially since my mom teaches G.E.D. prep (for the test to get your high-school diploma) and even her students--people who obviously want to improve their lot in life--are getting sucked back down by the money.

[pbbth]

This is true of many people though, not just those in this particular group. How many lottery winners end up with millions of dollars and then spend it all on expensive liquor and Cadillac Escalades and wind up with nothing to show for it 10 years later? I do understand what you are saying though and I think that it is sad when people choose not to rise above the negative things expected of them.

[Speaker for the Dead]

I do understand what you are saying though and I think that it is sad when people choose not to rise above the negative things expected of them.I think that's exactly it, more succinctly than I could put it.

[pbbth]

I just realized I never did answer the question. The only time I would say it bothers me is when those negative things reflect back to me. For example, it must have been 2 years ago now that a woman in Florida (I believe it was Florida at any rate, I might be wrong about that) died because she never moved from her couch and grew to be 600 lbs and sat on the sofa for so long her skin literally grafted to the fabric. She didn't get up to go to the bathroom or anything. When they came to haul her corpse away they had to cut out part of the wall to get her body out of the house.

As a woman who is overweight every time I hear stories like this I cringe. I get regular exercise and I haven't watched more than an hour of TV at a time in months. Since I moved to NYC I have lost 32 lbs because I no longer have a car and walk or take public transportation to get where I need to go. I take ballet and tap classes. I have my blue belt in Tae Kwon Do. I enjoy being active and while I might huff and puff if I have to climb several flights of stairs for the most part I have no problem keeping up with people thinner than myself. Despite these things, though, I know that every time a story about someone who is so fat that they got stuck in a revolving door or hasn't moved in so long that they are growing mold in the folds of their skin makes the news that I will spend the next 48 hours being scrutinized far more than usual by the people around me because I am heavy. Just because 1 fat person didn't move in months and grafted to her couch doesn't mean that all fat people are headed towards the same end, and as much as I feel bad for that woman and I wish she could have gotten the help she needed I am angry with her for the extra example she is providing to those people who are already harboring predjudices against the obese.

[New Beginning]

Agree with pbbth, this mostly affects me when it's "one of my own" that exhibits the negative stereotype.

I do get annoyed when I see things like that in other groups as well, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of negative stereotypes come from somewhere. Of course that's no excuse to be prejudiced: an individual should be judged on their own actions, not the actions of others. However, it's not so surprising that some people, for whatever reason, will fall into the stereotype.

[monstro]

I too hate when people conform to well-known stereotypes. It's so cliche.

However...

It seems like this is a problem that people who do the stereotyping (whoever is the dominant group) don't have. For instance, when I was in college it got drummed into me by well-meaning people that I, as a black woman, needed to be on my "best" behavior in class. Which meant showing up on time, answering intelligent questions, studying all night long, etc. Failing to do this would mean that I would be perpetuating stereotypes about Affirmative Action beneficaries, black people, women, etc. Meanwhile, the other kids were having fun and doing what most college kids do. What stereotypes were they worried about perpetuating? None, as far as I'm concerned. I should have been able to live such a carefree existence.

I'd say that's the worse part of being stigmitized minority group. Just about everything regarding your being can fit into a stereotype since there are so many to choose from. I buck about all the stereotypes I can think of for my identity, but I know there are a few that I do perpetuate. When I was in high school, I was a class clown. My speciality was physical humor, with some dry wit thrown in. I'd get lots of laughs, so much so that I was voted Most Humorous. One day, a "friend" called me up and told me that I was nothing but an embarrassing Step-n-Fetchitt and that I should stop being so goofy. It didn't matter to her that both black and white kids found me funny or that there was some intelligence to my buffoonary. It didn't matter to her that I found it theraputic to intentionally make others laugh--that it was my way of coping with adolescent angst. All she could see was the stereotype of a black "clown" and that I was perpetuating it. I say fuck that shit.

[Hypno-Toad]

I hate it when I see men acting like sex-crazed pigs. I know that it's my own personal hang-up from the way I was raised, but it still annoys me when I see things like my male coworkers gather at the window because a hottie is down in the parking lot.

What a great example of professionalism, guys.

[Phlosphr]

I hate it when I see men acting like sex-crazed pigs. I know that it's my own personal hang-up from the way I was raised, but it still annoys me when I see things like my male coworkers gather at the window because a hottie is down in the parking lot.

What a great example of professionalism, guys.
Ditto, I cannot standit when I see men acting a fool because there is a beautiful woman in the room or walking by or in a car etc...etc... Have some respect for women for crissake.

On to what the OP was talking about in regrds to Natives - I live near the largest single casino on the planet called Foxwoods Resort Casino (http://www.foxwoods.com/) tucked into the Connecticut woods it was started by the Mashantucket Indians. They were a small tribe 300 or so back in the early 90's they only had a Bingo Hall and a smallish reservation - with members stretched out all over southeastern CT. Once they gained federal recognition and got the money to open a casino [from Malaysia] They started building, and building and building. They paid their 100 million dollar debt in less than 1 year and now they have the single largest casino on the planet.

How about those original 300 tribe members? I believe only a handful of that are full blooded Mashantucket but you only had to be 1/32 to get the 30k a month stipend from the casino. Yes 30,000 a month.

Most of the tribal youth had drug and alcohol problems (still do) - bounced in and out of rehab and eventually the crime rate on the rez hit an all time high in the late 90's. Eventually leading to a breakdown in tribal relations and a revaluation of the monthly stipend...

[Speaker for the Dead]

I hate it when I see men acting like sex-crazed pigs. I know that it's my own personal hang-up from the way I was raised, but it still annoys me when I see things like my male coworkers gather at the window because a hottie is down in the parking lot.

What a great example of professionalism, guys.
Yeah, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Closely related is the phenomenon of people hiding behind negative stereotypes. "I'm a guy, so I'm supposed to be aggressively horny!"

[Auntbeast]

My problem is when people try so hard to fit the stereotypes. I've never had the desire for anyone to look at me and think that I look exactly like a whatever.

Examples:
Cowboy hat, western shirt, wrangler jeans, big belt buckle, cowboy boots.
Long mullet, Led Zeppelin shirt
Overly sexy dressing asian girl
Pencil-protector, short sleeved dress shirt, thick glasses
Over-the-top gangsta wear, gold teeth, big bling
All black, ultra goth, disaffected youth.
Complete drama queen gay guy

on and on...

I guess I never wanted to fit in that small a cubby.

[Sunrazor]

This is true of many people though, not just those in this particular group. How many lottery winners end up with millions of dollars and then spend it all on expensive liquor and Cadillac Escalades and wind up with nothing to show for it 10 years later? I do understand what you are saying though and I think that it is sad when people choose not to rise above the negative things expected of them.You hit the nail on the head. The reason people think money will buy happiness is because money actually will buy sensual gratification -- the euphoria of good booze, the smell of a new car, the flavor of rich food. But what it won't buy is a sense of self-worth. People (like me, at certain times in my life) who lack a sense of self-worth are unable to achieve psychic gratification -- they just aren't happy! So they reach for whatever gratification they can get, and the easiest is physical, because that's the kind of gratification you can buy.

[John DiFool]

It's the gay ones which bug me (even tho in the grand Seinfeldian tradition I certainly feel like there's nothing wrong with that)-I've often wondered if the lisping, the feminine walking styles, etc. are just mere affectations or not.

[Hypno-Toad]

It's the gay ones which bug me (even tho in the grand Seinfeldian tradition I certainly feel like there's nothing wrong with that)-I've often wondered if the lisping, the feminine walking styles, etc. are just mere affectations or not.
I've heard that for some guys and ladies it's a way of "flying the colors." They play up the stereotype sometimes to assert their lifestyle or as a way of announcing status. A gay guy can probably improve his chances of scoring another guy if he's broadcasting his gayness.

But yeah, over the top flamboyant stereotypes annoy me too.

[Sublight]

Very much, but like others, only when it's a stereotype that's going to get applied to me.

For example, this Aussie in Osaka throwing bicycles at pedestrians and passing cars, generally acting like a drunken jackass, then pretending he doesn't speak any Japanese once a garbageman slaps him around and hands him to the police (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cej22iu0y5M&eurl=http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16096), will be remembered by onlookers as "one of those gaijin," And so he pisses me off far more than a Japanese person doing the same thing. The latter is an obnoxious pain in the ass. The former is an obnoxious pain in the ass that I get lumped together with.

[matt_mcl]

It's the gay ones which bug me (even tho in the grand Seinfeldian tradition I certainly feel like there's nothing wrong with that)-I've often wondered if the lisping, the feminine walking styles, etc. are just mere affectations or not.

Well, here's something that bothers me -- femme gay guys being mentioned in the same breath as alcoholism, disease, and antisocial behaviour, as if they were the same thing. Hint: they're not.

[Shodan]

It used to bother me when posters acted like drama queens and reacted to things that aren't there, but I got over it. ;)

Regards,
Shodan

[OneCentStamp]

Sure. Every time I see a thread here over some new stupid political development here in Texas (e.g. the current Pit thread over Master's degrees in Creation Science), I feel a quick urge to say that I'm not really FROM Texas and I'm not like THOSE Texans. Then I say, "you know what? I don't owe anybody an apology for the actions of elected officials I didn't even get to vote for or against."

[Least Original User Name Ever]

It used to bother me when posters acted like drama queens and reacted to things that aren't there, but I got over it. ;)

Regards,
Shodan



IT'S ABOUT THE TOILET SEAT THING AGAIN, ISN'T IT?!?!?!!






I agree with you, by the way.

[Mosier]

I just wish they wouldn't talk so loudly at movies.

[Bea Spoke]

I'm happy with my black friends except when it comes to reporting crimes. They have a cultural blind spot about that, talking about snitches and stoolies, etc. I know that they come from neighborhoods where reporting crimes makes you a target, but I wish it weren't so.

[Indygrrl]

I'm happy with my black friends except when it comes to reporting crimes. They have a cultural blind spot about that, talking about snitches and stoolies, etc. I know that they come from neighborhoods where reporting crimes makes you a target, but I wish it weren't so.

They also probably come from a place where it doesn't matter if they report the crime or not, nothing will come of it. I know many blacks and people who live in certain neighborhoods (like my husband and I) who know the police won't do crap for us. Hell, my husband got attacked a few blocks from our house and the case was dropped before noon the next day. Reporting it was more trouble than it was worth.

I work in an industry where, unfortunately, stereotypes are perpetuated every day. And society believes it to such a point that I got attacked on this very board and accused of those very stereotypes. No matter how much of an exception you are to the stereotype there are still people who can't wait to put you in that box.

[Speaker for the Dead]

I work in an industry where, unfortunately, stereotypes are perpetuated every day. And society believes it to such a point that I got attacked on this very board and accused of those very stereotypes. No matter how much of an exception you are to the stereotype there are still people who can't wait to put you in that box.You're a porn star? HARLOT!

[Indygrrl]

You're a porn star? HARLOT!

Uh, no.

[Speaker for the Dead]

Yeah... that was a joke.

[Kyla]

About 10-15% of my students are ethnic Roma (gypsies), and they are discriminated against here in Eastern Europe in a way that was, at first, really shocking to me. It's totally open and socially acceptable to talk about the dirty, lazy tsigani. For instance, one of my classes was absolutely out of control one day, so I went to talk to their class teacher. After I described the class, he laughed and said, "Do you have tsigani in America, Kyla?" Everything that goes wrong, it's because of the gypsies. Twenty kids are rowdy, but the two Roma kids are the ones at fault, of course.

I was really naive when I started this job. I really thought that I could make a difference in these kids' lives. I feel pretty depressed about it now...I almost wish I worked in a segregated school (any town large enough to have two schools segregates the Roma away from the ethnic Bulgarians and Turks, but my town is too small), because...they really do cause a lot of discipline problems. I understand the reasons for it - they come from a background of extreme poverty, very few of their parents are high school graduates (if any), and it's expected that they'll drop out of school at age 12 to get married and start having kids. There is no pressure to perform well academically and their parents don't seem to care if they show up for school at all. The school system only provides free books up to 4th grade, with the result that no Roma kid in 5th grade and up has textbooks, so they can't participate, so they while away the hours throwing spitballs at each other and distracting the rest of the class.

It just kills me.

[Malacandra]

I work in an industry where, unfortunately, stereotypes are perpetuated every day. And society believes it to such a point that I got attacked on this very board and accused of those very stereotypes. No matter how much of an exception you are to the stereotype there are still people who can't wait to put you in that box.

I saw it at the time, but didn't think you got "attacked". Someone IIRC asked you as a factual question if you took recreational drugs, out of a genuine concern for your health (possibly, at any rate*), in response to a particular health issue that you'd complained of. This place being what it is, I shouldn't have thought recreational drugtaking scored very high on most people's evilometer. Nor's the question offensive: you can ask it of me any time you like.

I admire your conduct, however. Many people in your position would have flounced off the board vowing loudly never to return, and (if they'd later had a change of heart) slunk back in a while later under cover of some sympathy-gathering likely story, pretending the flame-out had never happened, so good for you. :)


(*Or possibly just being dickish, but then, who cares what a dick thinks?)

[Indygrrl]

I saw it at the time, but didn't think you got "attacked". Someone IIRC asked you as a factual question if you took recreational drugs, out of a genuine concern for your health (possibly, at any rate*), in response to a particular health issue that you'd complained of. This place being what it is, I shouldn't have thought recreational drugtaking scored very high on most people's evilometer. Nor's the question offensive: you can ask it of me any time you like.

I admire your conduct, however. Many people in your position would have flounced off the board vowing loudly never to return, and (if they'd later had a change of heart) slunk back in a while later under cover of some sympathy-gathering likely story, pretending the flame-out had never happened, so good for you. :)


(*Or possibly just being dickish, but then, who cares what a dick thinks?)

Actually, I got called a lot of names and was accused of a lot of bad behavior that wasn't true. But please, let's not get into it. I really didn't enjoy that at all and don't care to revisit it.

[Sublight]

I work in an industry where, unfortunately, stereotypes are perpetuated every day. And society believes it to such a point that I got attacked on this very board and accused of those very stereotypes. No matter how much of an exception you are to the stereotype there are still people who can't wait to put you in that box.
But do you get PO'ed at the people in your profession who aren't the exception? (since that was the OP's question)

[B. Serum]

Re: the OP

Regarding Aboriginal (to use your term) stereotypes, you may find this (http://thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=113) radio show episode a good listen:

This American Life #113: Windfall / Act 1 - Reservations
Alix Spiegel reports on an entire community that's turned its back on easy money — for now. Nine years ago a native American community in Minnesota — the Mille Lacs band of Ojebway — built a casino. The reservation had been poor for a century, but soon they were the second biggest tourist attraction in the state, second only to the Mall of America. They had hundreds of millions of dollars ... but of course, too much money can be as destructive as too little ... and it's unclear what to do with all the cash.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

Well, here's something that bothers me -- femme gay guys being mentioned in the same breath as alcoholism, disease, and antisocial behaviour, as if they were the same thing. Hint: they're not.

When did this happen?

[Shodan]

Actually, I got called a lot of names and was accused of a lot of bad behavior that wasn't true. But please, let's not get into it. I really didn't enjoy that at all and don't care to revisit it.
FWIW, we're glad to see you back.

Regards,
Shodan

[Beware of Doug]

My problem is when people try so hard to fit the stereotypes.
[...]I guess I never wanted to fit in that small a cubby.What she said.

And it sticks even more in my craw when said folks defend negative stereotypes as part of a cherished culture. As if gangsta rappers and John Coltrane are somehow equally great. Or as if the real gift of the Jews is not 5000 years of learned tradition, but 20th century family psychodrama.

[Indygrrl]

But do you get PO'ed at the people in your profession who aren't the exception? (since that was the OP's question)

It makes me wish it wasn't so, but no, I don't get PO'd. I do wish they wouldn't live down to negative stereotypes, but most of the time they don't even realize they are doing it. Some people don't have much self-awareness.

Sorry if I didn't state that outrightly. I thought it was implied in my original post on the topic.

[matt_mcl]

When did this happen?

Femme gay guys were mentioned in this thread in post 14. Since this thread is about negative stereotypes, I think it's safe to interpret that post as meaning that effeminacy in gay men is negative, an assertion I object to.

[Satellite^Guy]

Ditto, I cannot standit when I see men acting a fool because there is a beautiful woman in the room or walking by or in a car etc...etc... Have some respect for women for crissake.

On a somewhat, but not quite, related note; one thing that makes me shake my head is the hypocrisy involved when women talk about how men are pigs when it comes to sex, for example adult entertainment establishments, yet, look at the way women act when in the presence of male strippers :eek: -- if a guy acted that way toward a female stripper, he'd be arrested in the blink of an eye, for sexual assault.

for the record, this post wasn't aimed at anyone in here, it was just the subject matter that reminded me of this pet peeve of mine. Oh, and I haven't been to one of the aforementioned establishments in well over 3-4 years... (not that there's anything wrong with going) :D

S^G

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

Femme gay guys were mentioned in this thread in post 14. Since this thread is about negative stereotypes, I think it's safe to interpret that post as meaning that effeminacy in gay men is negative, an assertion I object to.

While I didn't read it that way, that might have a lot to do with the differences in our perspective.


However, the over-the-top, drama-queeny, cartoonishly feminine homosexual male is a stereotype I find as offensive as the date-raping, slack-jawed, sports-first fratboy. And seeing someone play either of those up does evoke a negative reaction in me.

[matt_mcl]

However, the over-the-top, drama-queeny, cartoonishly feminine homosexual male is a stereotype I find as offensive as the date-raping, slack-jawed, sports-first fratboy.

Wow, being "cartoonishly feminine" is as bad as date rape now. Or is it date rape that's no more offensive than being "cartoonishly feminine"?

Seriously, I'm trying to be charitable, but how am I supposed to read that statement?

[Nava]

All she could see was the stereotype of a black "clown" and that I was perpetuating it. I say fuck that shit.

There's a "black clown" stereotype? "Class clown" yes... but I had no idea there was an American stereotype where the class clown is expected to be black or one where blacks are supposed to be clowns.

Sometimes it seems as if anything can be a stereotype. You get good grades except in Phys Ed? "nerd". You get good grades, even in Phys Ed? "golden boy". And so forth until infinity.

[kushiel]

I fancy myself to be tolerant. I try to judge people on their actions, not their affiliations, from gender to religion. Part of this is remembering that stereotypes don't apply to many, or most, members of a group. As such, I find it really frustrating when people do act out all the negative images of their race/gender/creed/sexuality.

For example, the aboriginal reserve near my city is having major problems with drug and alcohol binges because the compensation money for the abuses at the residential schools has arrived. This is exactly what many, many people around me expected to happen, just because they were "Indians"--they couldn't be expected to do anything else. Now they have that much more ammunition against people who don't deserve a bad reputation, but have one because of a number of idiots.

Has anyone else had this happen? It upsets me, not because it challenges my opinions, but because it seems to reinforce the bigotry around me.

It's hard to see it as a stereotype if that's what you grew up around. *shrug* I don't want to bring this into GD or Pit territory, but I don't feel that way because they are Native - I feel this way because people of Native descent where I grew up are primarily involved in the vices you describe. Doesn't mean I'm racist, or don't have Native friends, or don't feel happy for the people that break the vicious cycle. But I also don't fit into the stereotype of the evil white wo/man who is out to get Natives for all they are worth.

(btw, grew up around PA, and the farther north you get the different it is. Don't think for a second that what goes on in Saskatoon or south of that is the same as what happens in PA or north of that)

edit: I know I'm going to get pegged for being the person the OP complains about - someone perpetuating a negative stereotype. So no, you aren't smart for seeing that.

[Speaker for the Dead]

It's hard to see it as a stereotype if that's what you grew up around. *shrug* I don't want to bring this into GD or Pit territory, but I don't feel that way because they are Native - I feel this way because people of Native descent where I grew up are primarily involved in the vices you describe. Doesn't mean I'm racist, or don't have Native friends, or don't feel happy for the people that break the vicious cycle. But I also don't fit into the stereotype of the evil white wo/man who is out to get Natives for all they are worth.

(btw, grew up around PA, and the farther north you get the different it is. Don't think for a second that what goes on in Saskatoon or south of that is the same as what happens in PA or north of that)

edit: I know I'm going to get pegged for being the person the OP complains about - someone perpetuating a negative stereotype. So no, you aren't smart for seeing that.
It's neat to get the perspective of another Saskatchewanian. Personally, I see it as a frequently unfounded stereotype. Sure, I know plenty of native families with problems, but I see tons that are healthy and happy. The same goes for any race. Perhaps I've just been lucky in my interactions.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

Wow, being "cartoonishly feminine" is as bad as date rape now. Or is it date rape that's no more offensive than being "cartoonishly feminine"?

Seriously, I'm trying to be charitable, but how am I supposed to read that statement?

I think you and I are using the wrong words to try to explain ourselves to each other.

Let's put it this way- when a flamboyantly gay person struts onto the train with every over-the-top mannerism on display, I really don't care. I'm a New Yorker. Whether he's putting on a spectacle for the general public or for his own edification is really no concern of mine- that's his deal and I'm not even going to look up from my paper for him. Same exact thing when a beach-muscles kid in khakis and a popped collar on his polo shirt and a white baseball cap with his school's name or his fraternity's name on it "carries his luggage" onto the train and stands there all flexed and either ogling or inviting people to ogle him. Whether he's putting on a spectacle for the general public or for his own edification is really no concern of mine either- that's his deal and I'm not going to look up from my paper for him either.

There are two people who are different from me and pretty "stereotypical," and I really don't mind. All kinds to make a world and all that.

Now, let's posit that, the next stop being my stop, I get up to get off the train and accidentally brush the shoulder of either one of these people.

If my "excuse me" is met with a noncommittal grunt, or a "watch where the hell you're going," or even if it's ignored, then that's all well and good.

But let's say my "excuse me" is drowned out by either (a) a shriek of "Bitch, don't you WATCH where you're going?" and furious handwaving and "oh-no-you-di-int," or (b) "what the fuck, douchebag? How about I FUCK you UP? You smudged my Puma, you FUCK!"

Then I equate each of those things. Each representative member of his group is free to be whatever he wants, and it's really no skin off my back- but when one begins ACTING like one's MAD Magazine avatar, completely unironically, even if it's one's normal mode, I shake my head a little.

Does that make more sense?


now, if reaction (b) came out of person (a)'s mouth and vice versa, that'd be damn disconcerting

[Argent Towers]

Examples:
Cowboy hat, western shirt, wrangler jeans, big belt buckle, cowboy boots.
Long mullet, Led Zeppelin shirt
Overly sexy dressing asian girl
Pencil-protector, short sleeved dress shirt, thick glasses
Over-the-top gangsta wear, gold teeth, big bling
All black, ultra goth, disaffected youth.
Complete drama queen gay guy


I didn't realize the overly-sexy-dressing Asian girl was a stereotype. I wish there were more of those around.

[HazelNutCoffee]

I didn't realize the overly-sexy-dressing Asian girl was a stereotype. I wish there were more of those around.
Hah! I was going to say, most of the (East) Asian girls I know dress pretty conservatively. Or they'll overly dress up, with frilly skirts and heels in sub-zero temperatures. The stereotype among Asians is that Japanese girls tend to dress a bit crazily (as in they'll take more fashion risks).

Hm. By overly-sexy-dressing, do you mean slutty?

[Argent Towers]

Also I have never seen a single person actually wearing a pocket protector, in my entire life, except for on TV. Do they even exist anymore? Is there anyone who still wears them in a non-ironic way?

[matt_mcl]

Does that make more sense?

No, I still have problems with this:

1) You're not talking about being "feminine," you're talking about being a dick to someone. In your earlier post you complained about feminine gay men, and in this post, you've said you have no problems with someone who's just mannered, but then you have an issue if they scream at you. But screaming at you is completely different. Also, I don't see why it's worse if they scream at you in a queeny way versus screaming at you in a fairly gender-neutral way.

2) You still haven't explained why femininity is a negative stereotype for gay men. There are troubling undertones in this - are we supposed to simply take for given that behaviour that is considered gender-atypical makes for a negative stereotype?

3) You haven't addressed my objections to equating a feminine gender presentation with date rape. Even if you didn't mean it in a deep way, that the two things could even appear in the same breath is very troubling -- it's grossly pejorative to the one, or grossly trivializing to the other, or both.

[Magiver]

You can't live in the real world and not learn to recognize behavior based on general appearance and demeanor.

But to answer the question, I usually brace myself (lower my expectations) and am often disappointed further when lowered expectations aren't met. And yes, I give everybody a shot at making a good first, second and third impression. The flip side of giving everybody a chance is I'm often rewarded with a new friend. I know people from every economic/social corner of the world (at least my corner of it).

I really miss my old bar (it went under). Truly a place where good people got together.

[Auntbeast]

Hah! I was going to say, most of the (East) Asian girls I know dress pretty conservatively. Or they'll overly dress up, with frilly skirts and heels in sub-zero temperatures. The stereotype among Asians is that Japanese girls tend to dress a bit crazily (as in they'll take more fashion risks).

Hm. By overly-sexy-dressing, do you mean slutty?

Yeah, I mean slutty. The stereotype seems to go both ways, either real conservative or real slutty.

Hispanic girls tend to be the same way, especially the first gen ones. Heck, 30 minutes of watching telemundo will show the difference, young and skin-o-licious or old and dowdy. Not much middle ground.

As an aside, an asian girl I work with was pretty far on the slutty side, even within the confines of our uniforms. (Sequinned halter top underneath?) She is now pregnant and gaining weight...she appears rather fashionably lost.

I had more to say, but it seems folks may be getting a bit touchy and I'm teetering on offending.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

1) You're not talking about being "feminine," you're talking about being a dick to someone. In your earlier post you complained about feminine gay men, and in this post, you've said you have no problems with someone who's just mannered, but then you have an issue if they scream at you. But screaming at you is completely different. Also, I don't see why it's worse if they scream at you in a queeny way versus screaming at you in a fairly gender-neutral way.

First, I didn't complain about feminine gay men. You may be confusing me with John DiFool. In fact, if you go back and read my post, I said quite explicitly that I didn't read it that way. And, if you'll read what I DID object to, it's the cartoonishly feminine.

Second- the title of this thread is "Does it bother you when people live down to negative stereotypes?" I'm giving an example of when it bothers me. And it's not "worse," it's just more either laughable or sad, depending on how you look at it.

2) You still haven't explained why femininity is a negative stereotype for gay men. There are troubling undertones in this - are we supposed to simply take for given that behaviour that is considered gender-atypical makes for a negative stereotype?

Well, I don't HAVE to explain it. For better or for worse, it IS a negative stereotype. And no, we're not supposed to take for granted that gender-atypical behavior is negative, but cartoonish behavior is most certainly negative. That Carson guy from Queer Eye and that new "Look Good Naked" show is pretty feminine, but there's no negative association with that mannerism in my mind, or, I would wager, most of society's. But he's not cartoonish.

3) You haven't addressed my objections to equating a feminine gender presentation with date rape. Even if you didn't mean it in a deep way, that the two things could even appear in the same breath is very troubling -- it's grossly pejorative to the one, or grossly trivializing to the other, or both.

Because I didn't equate a feminine gender presentation with date rape. I picked two wildly divergent negative stereotypes and put them in the same sentence. I believe that you are overreacting here.


The thread is about negative stereotypes. I'm Irish-American and I dislike Irish-Americans getting 'faced on St. Patrick's day. I'm an athlete and I dislike when athletes act entitled by dint of their good fortune to be able to play a game for a living. Walking stereotype Pacman Jones offends me. Busta Rhymes's refusal to cooperate with the police offends me. LUGs offend me. Pretty much anyone who says "Look at me- Look at ME- LOOK AT ME, I'm DIFFERENT and your discomfort with my being DIFFERENT is because you and society need to EVOLVE!!!" gets under my skin as a mosquito bite on my elbow might.

[matt_mcl]

Because I didn't equate a feminine gender presentation with date rape.

Yes, you did. You said in post 38 that you find "the over-the-top, drama-queeny, cartoonishly feminine homosexual male" to be "as offensive as the date-raping, slack-jawed, sports-first fratboy." (Emphasis mine.)

In no universe is even the most "cartoonishly effeminate" gay man anywhere near as offensive as committing sexual assault. That you so casually equated the two and didn't even realize the import of your statement is amazing.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

In no universe is even the most "cartoonishly effeminate" gay man anywhere near as offensive as committing sexual assault. That you so casually equated the two and didn't even realize the import of your statement is amazing.

That you so casually ignore the fact that these are STEREOTYPES and thus grossly inflated caricatures of actual archetypes is equally so.

[matt_mcl]

That you so casually ignore the fact that these are STEREOTYPES and thus grossly inflated caricatures of actual archetypes is equally so.

I can only go by what you say, and you were talking about, indeed this whole thread is about, people living down to stereotypes. I can't think of a way of living down to a stereotype that one commits date rape other than by committing date rape.

Even if we ignore the entire point of the thread, how could you even say that it's as gross to you to consider the stereotype of an overly effeminate gay guy as the stereotype of someone who commits date rape? Why are these things even in the same universe?

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

Even if we ignore the entire point of the thread, how could you even say that it's as gross to you to consider the stereotype of an overly effeminate gay guy as the stereotype of someone who commits date rape? Why are these things even in the same universe?

I am saying that each stereotype is gross to me. You're invested in defending one as something you either see every day or something you see as part of an overall fight for acceptance while (rightly) vilifying the other as horrible- but they're STEREOTYPES and I find THOSE STEREOTYPES gross. If I had substituted any other fraternity stereotypes for "date-raping," would you still be doing this?

I appreciate your need to defend; you need to appreciate the fact that I am painting broad swipes of social caricatures here.

[matt_mcl]

If I had substituted any other fraternity stereotypes for "date-raping," would you still be doing this?

As I've made clear, that's the part of your argument that by far I most strongly object to. It's completely beyond the pale, and I'd appreciate your retracting it.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

I will not.

While over-the-top, I stand by it as a description of a stereotype.

While I appreciate that the comparison may have hit you close to home, I think your investment in the issue is clouding your perception and I don't think a retraction is warranted.

[Contrapuntal]

While over-the-top, I stand by it as a description of a stereotype.It was an extremely jerkish one, in that it equated femme gays with rapists. Why not just admit it, apologize, and move on?

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

It was an extremely jerkish one, in that it equated femme gays with rapists.

That's certainly one reading of it, and I have and continue to admit that.

Why not just admit it, apologize, and move on?

Because if one does not accept my honesty in why I said it, then why would one accept the honesty of my apology?


At no point did I intend and I do not believe that, absent an investment in the issue or an eggshell psyche, that your and matt_mcl's reading is the mainstream one.

Discourse is sometimes rough. Such is its nature.

[matt_mcl]

Because if one does not accept my honesty in why I said it, then why would one accept the honesty of my apology?

I do accept you are describing honestly why you said it. I argue that it is a bad reason and you need to apologize for it.

Thanks, by the way, for that "eggshell psyche" bit. Trivializing the legitimate complaints of underrepresented groups as being oversensitive is a common tactic and quite in line with your concomitant trivializing of the experiences of acquaintance rape survivors.

[Contrapuntal]

Discourse is sometimes rough. Such is its nature.It can be polished to quite a high sheen, however, should one have be willing to put in the effort.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

Thanks, by the way, for that "eggshell psyche" bit. Trivializing the legitimate complaints of underrepresented groups as being oversensitive is a common tactic and quite in line with your concomitant trivializing of the experiences of acquaintance rape survivors.

See, it is your position that your complaint is legitimate and mine that it is not. So yes, going this far in service to a complaint that is not as legitimate as you make it out to be is "oversensitive."

And you're still on about my "trivializing of the experiences of acquaintance rape survivors," only now it's right after accepting my explanation that my metaphor was ill-thought-out.

It is YOUR position that I have, and mine that I have not.

We're getting nowhere with this argument and subsequent derailing. You're entitled to hold whatever opinion you like of my statements in this thread, but your formation and holding of that opinion, regardless of how many agree with you, is going to be the only thing that comes out of this.

[user_hostile]

About 10-15% of my students are ethnic Roma (gypsies), and they are discriminated against here in Eastern Europe in a way that was, at first, really shocking to me. It's totally open and socially acceptable to talk about the dirty, lazy tsigani. For instance, one of my classes was absolutely out of control one day, so I went to talk to their class teacher. After I described the class, he laughed and said, "Do you have tsigani in America, Kyla?" Everything that goes wrong, it's because of the gypsies. Twenty kids are rowdy, but the two Roma kids are the ones at fault, of course.

I was really naive when I started this job. I really thought that I could make a difference in these kids' lives. I feel pretty depressed about it now...I almost wish I worked in a segregated school (any town large enough to have two schools segregates the Roma away from the ethnic Bulgarians and Turks, but my town is too small), because...they really do cause a lot of discipline problems. I understand the reasons for it - they come from a background of extreme poverty, very few of their parents are high school graduates (if any), and it's expected that they'll drop out of school at age 12 to get married and start having kids. There is no pressure to perform well academically and their parents don't seem to care if they show up for school at all. The school system only provides free books up to 4th grade, with the result that no Roma kid in 5th grade and up has textbooks, so they can't participate, so they while away the hours throwing spitballs at each other and distracting the rest of the class.

It just kills me.

I'm sorry to hear about this Kyla, but is there any Romany who has a burning desire to break the "stereotype"?

Come to think of it: are there any Dopers out there who are Romany or came from (or are still) that background? (Sort of "Ask the Romany...")