What drove men into being gay?

[velocitri]

I've heard about how women turn lesbian (got any more examples? post em!). But I have no idea on how men turn gay?

Some of my gay (suspected gay) friends hide their sexual preference because gay is considered an illness in the region I live in. I'm not homophobic, but I'm not going to offend them by accusing them gay. And they wont hang out with us straight guys cuz they're afraid of being rejected. Can't blame em though.

And, are gay people get easily offended by gay jokes? I've heard US stand-up comedians joke about races, politics, and religion and nobody seem to mind (if they don't go out of line).

[friedo]

As far as we can tell from all scientific study on the issue, people don't turn gay (or lesbian) but are born with their preferences mostly or fully intact. Nobody knows how much a role genetics or the environment plays in the issue. We do know that it's a lot more complicated than just gay or straight -- as there is a wide spectrum of preferences. (Most gay people, for example, are not "exclusively homosexual," as they may have had some heterosexual experiences too.)

And things get even more complicated when you throw gender identity into the mix.

As for comedians, they've been making gay jokes since the beginning of time. Most of them aren't terribly funny.

[panache45]

Nobody "turns" gay or lesbian, and nothing "drove" us to be the way we are. May I ask what drove you to be straight, and when did you turn?

Just like you, we were probably born the way we are. And gay jokes mostly aren't that funny.

[jayjay]

And gay jokes mostly aren't that funny.

Well, unless we make them. Or Margaret Cho.

Where is "the region that [you] live in", velocitri?

[Beware of Doug]

Nobody "turns" gay or lesbian, and nothing "drove" us to be the way we are. May I ask what drove you to be straight, and when did you turn?Lori, in the 2nd grade.

Sorry, not the OP.

[cosmosdan]

Nobody "turns" gay or lesbian, and nothing "drove" us to be the way we are. May I ask what drove you to be straight, and when did you turn?

Just like you, we were probably born the way we are. And gay jokes mostly aren't that funny.

Do you think that's 100% accurate. {not the jokes part} I think the largest percentage of gay people are born that way. I also think it's possible that some people turn to their own gender for love, comfort, affection, or sex, when they have been wounded or rejected by the opposite gender.

Still, The OP is pretty ignorant and offensive IMO. You have to be living under a rock for years to phrase the question that way.

[jayjay]

Still, The OP is pretty ignorant and offensive IMO. You have to be living under a rock for years to phrase the question that way.

Agreed, IF the OP is from North America or Western Europe. There are regions even in Europe that are virulently homophobic and ignorant of the truth about homosexuality. And the OP doesn't sound like an English-as-a-first-language type.

[fluiddruid]

I'm going to assume for the sake of this post that the OP's poor phrasing is due to lack of knowledge rather than intended slight.

What the OP is describing is situational homosexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_homosexuality). This doesn't encompass all (or even most) people who identify as gay or lesbian at all. However, people can and do show homosexual behaviors only in certain contexts, such as in single gender living conditions like prisons. This shouldn't imply that all people who are attracted to the same sex "turn" or "change", as the evidence doesn't support this. Rather, this is a set of people who would typically self-identify as straight, but who may experiment sexually or resort to homosexuality only situationally.

This raises tough questions about what makes you gay (or even bisexual). Are you bisexual because you resort to offering sex to people of the same gender in exchange for protection or basic needs like food? Most would say no. What if you resort to sex for comfort and intimacy with people of the same gender due to complete lack of exposure to the opposite gender? What if you only have same-sex attraction to one individual? What if you have same-sex attraction after a bad experience with the opposite sex?

Many people understand sexuality to be something of a switch - you're either all gay or all straight. Others add bisexuality and believe it all comes down to gender - either you like only women, or only men, or you like both equally. However, I think it far more likely that sexuality is much more complicated. I think the issue has become politically charged in that gay people don't want to admit that anyone would be gay based on environmental factors (since people will twist that to mean that it is a choice and therefore easier to discriminate against). At the same time, people (men in particular) are afraid to admit any curiosity or attraction to the same sex due to religious reasons, discrimination, and in the case of men, a perceived lack of manliness associated with being attracted to men. However, my personal opinion is that people's sexuality not only is more of a spectrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale) than a checkbox, but that it does change based on factors in one's life.

[RealityChuck]

Excellent analysis fluiddruid. It also covers things like Larry Craig, who insists he's not gay despite some clear homosexual behavior. Sexuality is a complex subject.

[panache45]

Do you think that's 100% accurate. {not the jokes part} I think the largest percentage of gay people are born that way. I also think it's possible that some people turn to their own gender for love, comfort, affection, or sex, when they have been wounded or rejected by the opposite gender.
But when gay people are wounded or rejected by their own gender, yes we can turn to the opposite gender for love, etc., but that doesn't make us go straight.

[cosmosdan]

But when gay people are wounded or rejected by their own gender, yes we can turn to the opposite gender for love, etc., but that doesn't make us go straight.

You are right of course. I didn't elaborate. I think people can be convinced they are gay and live a gay lifestyle for years, for the reasons I mentioned. Just as a gay person can be in denial and live a straight lifestyle for years.

So, more technically expressed I meant, not all people who believe they are gay and live a gay lifestyle were born that way.

Either way, sexual preference has nothing to do with the quality of the individual.

[cosmosdan]

I'm going to assume for the sake of this post that the OP's poor phrasing is due to lack of knowledge rather than intended slight.

What the OP is describing is situational homosexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_homosexuality). This doesn't encompass all (or even most) people who identify as gay or lesbian at all. However, people can and do show homosexual behaviors only in certain contexts, such as in single gender living conditions like prisons. This shouldn't imply that all people who are attracted to the same sex "turn" or "change", as the evidence doesn't support this. Rather, this is a set of people who would typically self-identify as straight, but who may experiment sexually or resort to homosexuality only situationally.

This raises tough questions about what makes you gay (or even bisexual). Are you bisexual because you resort to offering sex to people of the same gender in exchange for protection or basic needs like food? Most would say no. What if you resort to sex for comfort and intimacy with people of the same gender due to complete lack of exposure to the opposite gender? What if you only have same-sex attraction to one individual? What if you have same-sex attraction after a bad experience with the opposite sex?

Many people understand sexuality to be something of a switch - you're either all gay or all straight. Others add bisexuality and believe it all comes down to gender - either you like only women, or only men, or you like both equally. However, I think it far more likely that sexuality is much more complicated. I think the issue has become politically charged in that gay people don't want to admit that anyone would be gay based on environmental factors (since people will twist that to mean that it is a choice and therefore easier to discriminate against). At the same time, people (men in particular) are afraid to admit any curiosity or attraction to the same sex due to religious reasons, discrimination, and in the case of men, a perceived lack of manliness associated with being attracted to men. However, my personal opinion is that people's sexuality not only is more of a spectrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale) than a checkbox, but that it does change based on factors in one's life.

I agree. That's a better expression of what I was talking about. Thanks

[velocitri]

I'm going to assume for the sake of this post that the OP's poor phrasing is due to lack of knowledge rather than intended slight.
I don't quite get this but the term "lack of knowledge" is appropriate.
Where is "the region that [you] live in", velocitri?
I live in a maldeveloped, third-world, non-English speaking country. I prefer not to say where exactly. You'll have to pardon me.

The gay people (if I address them/you guys wrong, please correct me) I know seems to feel oppressed by society that they've either become hostile, or anti-social, mostly towards (straight) men. I've actually been harassed by hostile gay. I've been invited by complete stranger to his room when I was waiting for a bus. I've received insults (while I'm being friendly) from a gay couple who are friends with my friend. But I've had positive experience with gays too. I have a gay friend who hides his gayness who are totally cool with straight people. We hang out a lot back then but never talk about his 'gayness' (this word sounds wrong). We knew he was gay and he didn't hide it from us, but he never talked about it.

I think being openly gay will draw more respect from straight guys (me at least) and it will eventually teach the society to accept gays as a full-functioning members of the society. Judging by the posts here, It doesn't seem you guys have trouble being openly gay. I wish it was the same case here where I live in.. Then the guy at the bus stop would just say "hey are you gay, man?". I'd say "no, man". "okay, cool.. have a nice day".. That would be good.

[Beware of Doug]

Excellent analysis fluiddruid. It also covers things like Larry Craig, who insists he's not gay despite some clear homosexual behavior. Sexuality is a complex subject.Wasn't it you who said that gayness used to be defined only as being the bottom?

[gotpasswords]

Agreed, IF the OP is from North America or Western Europe. There are regions even in Europe that are virulently homophobic and ignorant of the truth about homosexuality.
Wherever they're from, it certainly sounds like the OP is from one of those places where it's not possible or allowed to think homosexuality has any possibility of being normal or acceptable:
...gay is considered an illness in the region I live in.

[velocitri]

Still, The OP is pretty ignorant and offensive IMO.
I apologize for this. I do not wish to offend anyone. Please excuse my phrasing because I don't speak English :(
You have to be living under a rock for years to phrase the question that way.
Wish I this wasn't the case, but, yes that's true.. :(

[velocitri]

So, what's the region? South Carolina? Alabama? Am I getting close?
Waayy off, man.. (funny though, or is it? I dunno).. Half way around the world from where you've guessed.

[velocitri]

However, I think it far more likely that sexuality is much more complicated. I think the issue has become politically charged in that gay people don't want to admit that anyone would be gay based on environmental factors (since people will twist that to mean that it is a choice and therefore easier to discriminate against). At the same time, people (men in particular) are afraid to admit any curiosity or attraction to the same sex due to religious reasons, discrimination, and in the case of men, a perceived lack of manliness associated with being attracted to men. However, my personal opinion is that people's sexuality not only is more of a spectrum than a checkbox, but that it does change based on factors in one's life.
This explains a lot. Thanks fluiddruid. I think I have a slight misconception, I thought the term "gay" only apply to men.

My question about the jokes. We've (or I, via youtube) heard jokes about jews that are stingy, blacks being threatening to the white, and moslems being terrorists, and from what I saw, It seems Americans and it's minorities are being good sports about it. Is it the same case about gays? (I mean no offense whatsoever)

[chaoticbear]

velocitri, where you live, is it an environment of men shunning gay men and lusting after lesbians? I've seen a lot of that in the south US, and movies here play on it a lot.

[Drunky Smurf]

Do you think that's 100% accurate. {not the jokes part} I think the largest percentage of gay people are born that way. I also think it's possible that some people turn to their own gender for love, comfort, affection, or sex, when they have been wounded or rejected by the opposite gender.

Still, The OP is pretty ignorant and offensive IMO. You have to be living under a rock for years to phrase the question that way.
Bolding mine.

That is what happened to my sister-in-law. She was married in her early twenties and when she was in her late twenties she was raped by some stranger. She went into counseling but her marriage didn't last and a year or so later she got divorced.

Fast forward to now she has been with her SO for about ten years and a couple of years ago they got partnered. I couldn't go due to money and work issues but a lot of family went and I have some pictures.

[Drunky Smurf]

Missed the edit window. Damn work and all.

I want to add that the gay, male, friends I have had, and the one I am still friends with, have all said they liked boys since elementary school. Just like the rest of us who had 1st grade crushed on the opposite sex. I remember in first grade when Sarah G. touched my hand and I told my friend Scott that I would never wash that hand again because now it was sacred.

[outlierrn]

The ''I haven't been with the opposite sex since I was badly burned by them'' pattern [I]seems[I] more common with women to me, but since I don't care how people roll or why* I can't say I've actually looked into it, or how much cultural/observational bias plays into it.



*except in the general sense of how do we make a more just society and ease the transition for people who find themselves where they weren't expecting to be.

[Argent Towers]

I'll never understand why some people refuse to say exactly where they are. Is the OP afraid that he's going to be drawn and quartered if they find out he's been posting here or something?

[Jake]

Lori, in the 2nd grade.

Sorry, not the OP.

Oh god yes. What an ass she had! :D

[Bambi Hassenpfeffer]

I'll never understand why some people refuse to say exactly where they are. Is the OP afraid that he's going to be drawn and quartered if they find out he's been posting here or something?
I'm guessing somewhere in Africa (most likely) or rural southeast Asia (less so) from his description. The funny thing with the Dopers is that there's a decent chance that someone here could explain it to him in whatever he speaks as his first language if were to say what it is. At least by PM, since foreign language posting is frowned upon.

As far as what drives us to be gay, nothing does. Or more accurately, whatever drives you to be straight drove me gay. As far as gay humor, we have a TON of it, but it's not exported as widely AFAIK. Margaret Cho and Kathy Griffin are probably the most well-known gay guy favorites to the rest of the world, but the humor probably wouldn't translate well.

For instance, Margaret's bit about CC Bloom's Bar and Grill doesn't make sense if you don't catch the reference to Beaches and Bette Midler's career in general and what she and that movie mean as a part of the American gay subculture.

[cosmosdan]

I apologize for this. I do not wish to offend anyone. Please excuse my phrasing because I don't speak English :(

Wish I this wasn't the case, but, yes that's true.. :(

I'm afraid I owe you an apology. I judged you without finding out all the details.

There are plenty of people in the US who judge Gays harshly and consider it some sort of defect. There's also lot's of research to show that isn't true.

Now that I have more information I realize you weren't trying to offend. I apologize for reacting without asking any questions.

[matt_mcl]

This is a great question from you and I thank you for asking it. So many people, and I mean everywhere including this part of the world (I've talked to my share), are not only ignorant but also completely unwilling to learn or even talk.

I think people have given a fairly good turn around the issue. The main point is that whatever label people use, we don't know what causes them to have their particular sexual orientation except that it's fairly sure that in at least the great majority of people, it arises very early in life or before birth and cannot be intentionally changed.

As for humour about gay people, for me it all depends how it's being played. A comedian can certainly mock stereotypes of gay people in a way that's not homophobic, or s/he can play with those stereotypes in a way that's gay-positive; or else the humour is simply snarking at gay people, and that I don't enjoy. A smart woman once said that satire is meant to be directed at the powerful; when it's directed at the powerless, it's not just mean, it's vulgar.

[WoodenTaco]

Velocitri, I just wanted to say that I found your later posts refreshing. It appeared at first that this thread would get confrontational. It's rare on these forums to find someone fix that before it happens by humbly apologizing, and being so genuinely interested in the answer.

My question about the jokes. We've (or I, via youtube) heard jokes about jews that are stingy, blacks being threatening to the white, and moslems being terrorists, and from what I saw, It seems Americans and it's minorities are being good sports about it. Is it the same case about gays? (I mean no offense whatsoever)
Well, not all Americans like those jokes. In fact, all three that you mentioned would, I'm sure, insult a fair number of people and get people angry. Americans aren't a unified body with one mind, after all; many Americans would be offended but many Americans would find those jokes hilarious. Jokes about gay people are pretty much the same.
There are also degrees of offensiveness to the joke itself. Putting on a lisp and a higher pitched voice to mock the typical stereotype "gay voice" might be okay, but jokes about how "all gay people molest little children!" certainly would not, since it's more offensive, ignorant, and hurtful, and at some ambiguous point, it crosses the line. The line also changes based on who the speaker is - it's more acceptable for someone to criticize their own group, so that a black comedian can get away with far more black jokes than a white one, a Jewish comedian can get away with far more Jewish jokes than a Christian one, an a gay comedian can get away with far more gay jokes than a straight one.

[HappyHombre]

I was molested by my older sister as a child and developed an intense sex drive at a very young age, but it was only directed towards females until my mid-teen years, when a man offered to give me oral sex. I let him, and after that I would go to places where I could have anonymous sex with men. I still thought of myself as being primarily straight, and once my acne cleared up and I went to college I had sex with women almost exclusively for several years, but later I started having sex with men occasionally. Even then I didn't form relationships, but as I got older I started forming longer laster relationships with men and today (age 44) I am almost exclusively homosexual.

I know that at least some homosexuals are that way because they were exposed to gay sex at an early age, and that "situational homosexuality" can change into something else.

[panache45]

I was molested by my older sister as a child and developed an intense sex drive at a very young age, but it was only directed towards females until my mid-teen years, when a man offered to give me oral sex. I let him, and after that I would go to places where I could have anonymous sex with men. I still thought of myself as being primarily straight, and once my acne cleared up and I went to college I had sex with women almost exclusively for several years, but later I started having sex with men occasionally. Even then I didn't form relationships, but as I got older I started forming longer laster relationships with men and today (age 44) I am almost exclusively homosexual.

I know that at least some homosexuals are that way because they were exposed to gay sex at an early age, and that "situational homosexuality" can change into something else.
Many people believe that we are all, to some degree, bisexual, with the majority of people's orientation not being in either of the two extremes. So it's not too much of a stretch for there to be a certain amount of flexibility in most people's sexual orientation. It's not a matter of someone "going straight" or "going gay," it's more a matter of someone who is maybe 60% straight, and due to some of life's experiences, he finds himself acting on the other 40% of his sexuality. Obviously it's not so easy for someone like myself, who is 99+% gay.

[mr. jp]

I think the largest percentage of gay people are born that way.

As far as we can tell from all scientific study on the issue, people don't turn gay (or lesbian) but are born with their preferences mostly or fully intact.

Why do you think this? I agree that there is some genetic and prenatal hormonal component. But I would like to see a cite regarding them being the whole explanation.

[velocitri]

Velocitri, I just wanted to say that I found your later posts refreshing. It appeared at first that this thread would get confrontational. It's rare on these forums to find someone fix that before it happens by humbly apologizing, and being so genuinely interested in the answer.
Thank you WoodenTaco. I'm pretty satisfied with all the posts here. Everyone have been very helpful. Thank you all.
Well, not all Americans like those jokes. In fact, all three that you mentioned would, I'm sure, insult a fair number of people and get people angry. Americans aren't a unified body with one mind, after all; many Americans would be offended but many Americans would find those jokes hilarious. Jokes about gay people are pretty much the same.
There are also degrees of offensiveness to the joke itself. Putting on a lisp and a higher pitched voice to mock the typical stereotype "gay voice" might be okay, but jokes about how "all gay people molest little children!" certainly would not, since it's more offensive, ignorant, and hurtful, and at some ambiguous point, it crosses the line. The line also changes based on who the speaker is - it's more acceptable for someone to criticize their own group, so that a black comedian can get away with far more black jokes than a white one, a Jewish comedian can get away with far more Jewish jokes than a Christian one, an a gay comedian can get away with far more gay jokes than a straight one.
The reason I ask about the jokes is because my country has diversified population, just like the U.S. We've had racial/ethnicity issues in the past, but things are getting better, and people got used to hearing jokes about ethnic differences. But the gay issue is moving at a different pace. Hopefully it will get better. BTW, I like that UK show called Little Britain, there's a part where the fat guy plays 'the only gay in the village', the name is Davide Thomas if I'm not mistaken. I think it's pretty smart. And I think it's not too offensive, because the main issue is not about being gay.. but insisting on being the only gay, a "provincial queen" as one of the characters call it.

PS: This thought just came out: I think straight men here (where I live) are kinda ignorant towards gay because they're not too confident about their 'manliness'. They're afraid that when they start asking questions about gay, people might label them gay or drawn into being gay. I guess that includes me too. We'll not anymore.. :)

Thanks again to all who posted..

[Manda JO]

Many people believe that we are all, to some degree, bisexual, with the majority of people's orientation not being in either of the two extremes. So it's not too much of a stretch for there to be a certain amount of flexibility in most people's sexual orientation. It's not a matter of someone "going straight" or "going gay," it's more a matter of someone who is maybe 60% straight, and due to some of life's experiences, he finds himself acting on the other 40% of his sexuality. Obviously it's not so easy for someone like myself, who is 99+% gay.

I think people also tend to define themselves by the options society gives them, that is what you really are: the same person born in Sophocles' Athens, Victoria's London, or today's New York would have very different ideas about what catagories were avalible, and would develop different patterns of sexual behavior, whatever biological influences they might have.