Cheap/small cars with huge engines?

[occ]

Hey. I was just reading a recent post on the nature of horsepower and torque, and MC mentioned that a Pinto with a big-block is alot more fun than a Ferrari. This got me motivated, as I'd been thinking about this for a while. I'm interested in finding a cheap car, ripping out the engine, and dropping in a HUGE engine (Pinto with a big-block is a perfect example). Anyway, here are my general questions: Has anyone here done this before? Anyone know where I could find information on this? Are there shops that specialize in doing this? Any particular car/engine combinations that work really well? What could I expect to spend doing something like this? Thanx.

[Una Persson]

Some of that stuff is not that easy at all, especially if the car's frame was not meant for the large engine.

If you really want "fast, cheap, and out of control", try for an old (60's) Camaro, Mustang, Corvette, or something. Yes, a mid-70's Corvette even is not that expensive (about $7000 in decent shape), and can easily accept a wide variety of engines.

Putting a 454 in your AMC Gremlin may sound cool, but I know people who have done similar things, and let me assure you it is not cool. Instead of worrying about what supercharger to put on their 454 in their 76 'Vette, they are worrying about how they will get custom-welded body frame pieces, and paying a mechanic to customize a bellhousing, and so forth.

For that matter, you can often find late 60's Mustangs with pretty decent bodies for under $5000. These will take up to a 460 with very minor mods, IIRC. And these are small, relatively light cars.

[occ]

This is a viable suggestion, but the problem is the cost. The reason I want a dirt-cheap car body is I want a car I can beat up without worrying too much about it; spending 5-7 grand on a muscle car body that I may end up damaging doesn't appeal too much to me. While I know there are engine compatibility issues, I know its possible to find a dirt-cheap older economy car that can still accomodate larger engines.

[Shiva]

How about a compromise?

Ford made the Mustang II with a 302 (5.0l) back in the early Eighties.

Prior to that they made the Maverick Grabber with the same engine.

[handy]

Yeah, but today you wouldn't get it through the biannual smog inspections.

[Foaming Pipe Snake]

Yep, done right a small, over-torqued car can be a blast.

My friend, his father and brother put a (I think) Mustang engine in the chasis of an old Volvo after reading that it could be done. As I recall there was some exaust system issues that had to be delt with, but the engine itself fit in with only minor work (I think new hard points had to be drilled and there was a problem that required the cutting and re-welding of some part of the transmission ).

The thing could be really scary to ride in. It absolutly burned tires. It could spin it's wheels madly for three seconds before gaining purchase and taking off, especially if there was only the weight of one person in the car. We had to swap out the fronts for the rears practically after each session.

Our favorite game was tearing around an empty rain-soaked parking lot in it. Since it was only front wheel drive we could fishtail crazily, laying rubber

[yabob]

Putting a 454 in your AMC Gremlin may sound cool, but I know people who have done similar things, and let me assure you it is not cool.

Funny you should mention the Gremlin. That is one of the archetypical examples - not quite a 454, but, towards the end of its production they made something called a Gremlin X which had a small block 8. Since it was factory standard, there weren't the customization problems you mention. The little Gremlin with a V8 in would scoot, though stability and handling were, umm, questionable.

[Milton De La Warre]

I answer this only on the condition of not getting a lot of grief from you all, and on the condition you'll all never associate my name and the word "Vega" again. In the 70's, I got talked into putting a too much time and money into putting a Buick V-6 into a Chevy Vega on the grounds that one could soup up the 6 to get small block V-8 power and still have light weight to go with the light weight in the stamped out piece of shit Vega chassis/body. And also, it would in theory be much cheaper than spending the money on a "real" high performance car.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. There is a reason that automobile engineers get the big bucks. (Well, except for the ones that designed the Vega.) Consider weight distribution, suspension strength, steering, etc. All go down the tubes when you try to mess around with this type idea. Yes, it was way too fast... when it ran well, which wasn't too often. I also had handling and suspension problems continually, limiting the at-speed safety. I once even had a steering failure.

Yes, I didn't know the first thing about what I was doing. But at the time, I thought I did. So does virtually everyone else who tries something like this. You might be a good mechanic, but if you're not an experienced engineer, don't go there. In retrospect, the theories I agreed to waste time and money on were like the post a while back about using caffiene as a substitute for aerobic exercise. Even Custer probably said "Seemed like a good idea at the time...". But of course, we'll never know for sure.

If you want a real fast car, get one off the lot. Then if it wrecks due to a design fault, you won't have yourself to blame. You'll have spent lots less money, got fairly instant results, and won't be risking your ass every time you turn the key.

[LIONsob]

I know someone who stuffed a ford 351C in a pinto.
Talk about a wild ride, the thing was almost undriveable.
To change the sparkplugs he had to pull the moter back out.
It turned out to be more trouble than it was worth.

Back in the late 70's and early 80's their were a lot of kits around that allowed you to stuff a chevy v-8 into a chevy vega body.
One thing you might keep in mind is that most of those small car bodys are not made to handle the torque of a v-8 so they tend to flex and bend too much.

Peace
LIONsob

[Feynn]

Not cheap but way cool... there is a guy in the city who has a VW Beetle with the engine out of an F1 car nestled in the back. Fast is an understatement and I heard that it cost a fortune to build.

Aren't old Volvos all rear wheel drive?

The Sunbeam Tiger came with a Ford 289 V8, the same engine they put in the Shelby 350. Too much fun and convertible too.

[brad_d]

A friend of mine just recently completed a project in which he dropped a Chevy big block V-8 into a '78 Datsun 240Z. Yes, big block. I'm positive.

There was a lot of work involved, and the bulk of it was done by this guy in Las Vegas who's a friggin' wizard at this sort of thing. The car was stiffened with a tube frame, and the firewall was moved back about 6 inches to make room for the engine. IOW, this car was pretty much taken apart and put back together again with serious structural reinforcement.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen the finished product. I'm in Los Angeles, and the car was shipped to Ohio, where my friend now lives, a few months ago. He reports that it does work, but that it's more than just a handful to drive. Gears 1 and 2 are essentially unusable, as even the most gentle engagement of the clutch at idle breaks the rear wheels free. My friend has plans to do further work to remedy this, including more serious tires and rear end.

While not cheap, this certainly qualifies as "fast and out of control." :)

He bought that engine here in Los Angeles, and we tortured my little Mazda pickup by hauling it to Vegas about a year ago. He estimates that the engine weighs 700 pounds. The engine, a few other tools and parts, and the two of us taxed the suspension of my truck more than I'm eager to do again soon. It got there, though....

[DougC]

- - - When I was a teenager a friend's brother did the Vega/monster-motor thing. Worked perfect for a while, then didn't. There's an old joke that says that you can build a big-block car for only $2000. That's $2000 for the car, another $2000 for the motor, another $2000 for the drivetrain and another $2000 for gasoline.
- I never heard of European cars with hot-rodded engines damaging their frames. The few examples I've seen didn't impress me much, but vehicle laws seem to be rather draconian over there. "Hot-Rodded" vehicles had mostly minor stuff like replacing factory air filters, wheels/tires and decals, decals, decals. Any Euro hot-rod clubs online? - MC

[Telemark]

Then there was the SHOgun, a Ford Taurus SHO motor stuffed into a Festiva, I belive.

[Meephead]

Originally posted by Telemark
Then there was the SHOgun, a Ford Taurus SHO motor stuffed into a Festiva, I belive.

I remember seeing that in a magazine several years back. That was BAD ASS! It wasn't front-wheel drive after the conversion, IIRC, it was mid-engine rear-drive. They did some body modicications to let it ride on wider tires...flared the fenders some and gave a muscular look.

That would have been FUN ('til it killed me) :D

[Tristan]

There were several years where front wheel drive Volvo's where around, and there are shops that specialize in dropping either 5.0 Mustang engines into them, or small block Chevy v-8's. I was going to do this with my Volvo wagon (surprise the hell out of someone, getting smoked by a beater wagon) until I decided to just save up the money that I would use for it and get my wife her truck....

My father-in-law's buddy dropped a 283(?i think that's the number?) that comes with a super charger into a pinto... just for the track....

Me, I'm looking at getting a 94 Civic Hatchback, and putting an Integra LS or GSR engine into it.... fast, very fast, like faster than a Mustang kind of fast... woo haa!!

[hightechburrito]

One of my manager recently bought a Porche 914. The shop where he had it restored had one with a Chevy 350 in it. And it only weighed 1900 pounds!

[Homer]

http://www.turboz24.com

Curtis is a friend of mine.

Enjoy!

--Tim

[Chas.E]

I think you better work with affordable and easily workable US muscle cars. A good place to start would be small sports car models that were adapted for big power plants. Like for example, a 340 Cuda. I have a '65 Cuda with a 318 engine, I always wanted to pump it up to a 340 or better yet, a 440. But its such an old junker its not worth fixing up. Anyone want to buy my perfectly good restorable old Cuda?
I used to have an old '67 Dart GT and a guy I know who rebuilt 426 Hemis was always bugging me to sell it, he wanted to drop a 426 Hemi into the puny Dart GT, which only had a slant-6 engine in it. I thought he was nuts, but apparently this combo was pretty successful in stock car racing. It was a very light body but big enough to hold a big engine.
But still, the fastest car I ever drove was my friend's '67 Dodge Coronet Hemi. It sorta IS what you are trying to do. It was a mid-range 2-door family car with a huge monster 426 Hemi engine and an 8 barrel carburetor in it. From the outside, it looks like a completely ordinary car except for the tiny badge reading "Hemi." But the whole car was built just for stock car racing, and can probably do 180mph on a race course. I didn't have the nerve to drive it past about 130mph on public roads.

[occ]

Originally posted by Chas.E
I think you better work with affordable and easily workable US muscle cars. A good place to start would be small sports car models that were adapted for big power plants. Like for example, a 340 Cuda. I have a '65 Cuda with a 318 engine, I always wanted to pump it up to a 340 or better yet, a 440. But its such an old junker its not worth fixing up. Anyone want to buy my perfectly good restorable old Cuda?

How much would you sell your 'Cuda for, just curious? And how far would I have to drive to pick it up? ;)

It does seem like a better idea would be to find a cheap muscle car (ie one with engine problems) and drop in a new engine, so maybe this would be a better route to take. Hmm...

[Lute Skywatcher]

One of the first "Mustang Quarterly" issues from Hot Rod Magazine featured a 64½ Mustang 289 fitted with twin turbos. The car was fitted with a reversed hood scoop in order to keep the nose down at high speed. According to the owner, he never got up enough nerve to see exactly how fast it would go, he would chicken out at 150.

For safety's sake, I'd rather take one of the smaller '40s or '50s vehicles and put a big engine in that. I once knew a guy who drove a '48 Chevy pickup which had a 350 and 4-barrel. That truck could move!

[Chas.E]

Originally posted by occ
How much would you sell your 'Cuda for, just curious? And how far would I have to drive to pick it up? ;)

It does seem like a better idea would be to find a cheap muscle car (ie one with engine problems) and drop in a new engine, so maybe this would be a better route to take. Hmm... [/B]

Hmm.. are we allowed to do business on SDMB? I'm in Iowa and this car would probably drive anywhere in the US without repairs (except for a new set of tires).

I invested about $6500 in my junky old 'Cuda over the last 10 years. I consider it a total loss. After I spent all this money repairing every single mechanical system, I didn't have enough money to fix up the interior and give it a new paint job, so it kinda looks like crap. This is a California car and it's never been driven in winter, so the body is in pretty good overall shape. I figure if I threw another $2500 at it, it would end up worth about $6000. I figure if I sell it to someone for $1250 I'd be glad to see the end of it. I see old cudas in worse shape than this in Hemmings Motor News, and they're usually asking $2000 to $2500.

But anyway, its such a cool old car. It was designed by Darryl Shelby when he was with Mopar. The distintctive fastback and bubble window was a prototype for the Mustang. And this car is so light and nimble, with the big V8 318 and a TorqueFlite transmission in it, I can burn rubber up and down the street. I love it but I can't afford to fix it up so it belongs with someone who likes to fix up cars.

[Chas.E]

Originally posted by Jeff Olsen
One of the first "Mustang Quarterly" issues from Hot Rod Magazine featured a 64* Mustang 289 fitted with twin turbos. The car was fitted with a reversed hood scoop in order to keep the nose down at high speed. According to the owner, he never got up enough nerve to see exactly how fast it would go, he would chicken out at 150.
move!

Oh, that's nothing. I used to have a '65 Mustang GT Convertible, it was restored to absolutely stock (4 barrel carb, high compression engine) and could easily do 150 if you could find high-octane gas. I once drove across half of Kansas at a sustained AVERAGE speed of 135, carrying 2 passengers and their luggage. If you've never tried a stunt like this, just imagine driving on the highway at 70mph and all the other cars are just parked on the road at random intervals in front of you. Anticipate a clear lane ahead to the horizon, because that car on the horizon is only 4 seconds away. A convertible isn't very aerodynamic either. Do that for an hour, and you will be worn to a frazzle.

And that's the point, there are plenty of great old muscle cars that are still around. I'd go for some hi performance stock model. There are plenty of cool old big-block cars around. My dream car would be something this bad boy, a 1958 Chrysler 300D convertible with a fuel injected 392 Hemi engine:

http://www.chrysler300site.com/cgibin/history.cgi?1958

Anyway, I found a page with a little Dart with a 426 Hemi in it. Looks ridiculous, but there is no accounting for taste:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/4597/

Hey, I found a picture of a '65 Cuda like I have. Boy this one is in nice shape.

http://www.moparpicturebook.com/newpage118.htm

[sewalk]

Don't overlook older RWD Japanese cars as mules for bigger engines. I have a 1985 Celica GTS Convertible that will soon be receiving a new engine. Rather than the ubquitious SB Chevy engine, I'm going with a more exotic choice: A Toyota 1G-GTEU (2.0l I6, DOHC 24V, Intercooled Twin Turbochargers @7psi, and electronic port fuel injection, 275hp with no major modifications). This engine makes as much power as a mild chevy motor and is more or less a bolt-in replacement for my 22R-EC 2.4l SOHC I4. Weight distribution should not be too much of a problem like it would with a V8. I want a car that will go fast, look good, and turn. With a curb weight in the neighborhood of 2500lbs, it will be at about 9lb/hp without any serious engine mods. Throw in a boost controller and maybe a new ECU and that should drop to about 7lb/hp.

Throw in the Celica's native attributes like IRS, rack&pinion steering, and 4-wheel discs, and you've got a serious street car that can comptete with the exotics.

Other hot RWD Toyota project cars I've seen include 3T-GTEU Corollas and 4A-GZE (MR2 SC engine) Starlets.

[whc.03grady]

There was an article a while back in either VWTrendsor Hot VWswhich showed how to put the Porsche flat-6 (circa six liters) out of a 911 into any old pre-Vanagon VW van. It takes a little work and a kit (and of course the Porsche engine), but the front wheels will come off the ground through all the gears.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by yabob
Putting a 454 in your AMC Gremlin may sound cool, but I know people who have done similar things, and let me assure you it is not cool.

Funny you should mention the Gremlin. That is one of the archetypical examples - not quite a 454, but, towards the end of its production they made something called a Gremlin X which had a small block 8. Since it was factory standard, there weren't the customization problems you mention. The little Gremlin with a V8 in would scoot, though stability and handling were, umm, questionable.


That'd be the AMC 304. It's a smaller engine, thinner walls, etc, but all the exterior bolt patterns on all AMC V8s (290, 304, 360, 390, 401) are the same :D Therefore, it is a simple straight-out swap from the lil' 304 to the torque-monster 401 (350+ lb-ft @ 1500 rpm, stock! Now that's low-end!).
It's also an easy swap the other way, i.e. I know a few guys with fullsize Jeep pickups swapping in 304s in place of the stock 360 to get better gas mileage.

(I'm looking for a 401 to swap into my 360-powered Jeep Grand Wagoneer :D)

[whc.03grady]

(Incidentally, I believe it would be possible to put an old enough Porsche flat-6 into any air-cooled VW, be it Beetle, Bus, Squareback, or Ghia. The bus works best because of the vertical clearance in the enigine compartment. I also believe one of these conversions would be the most mind-blowing of all Big Engine/SmallCheap car combinations, with the exception of whatever those crazy Brits throw into Cooper Minis on occassion.)
I know a guy who put a small-block V8 in his mid-80s Chevy Astrovan.