What happens to successful MMORPGs when they get old?

[Autumn Almanac]

I'm curious about what's likely to happen to successful MMORPGs like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XI when they begin to dwindle in popularity or are supplanted by a sequel.

Are they likely to offer reduced fees or free access to keep people playing? Presumably the parent companies won't want to pay to keep game servers running indefinitely-- what are the chances of them handing the reins to another company, or even the players themselves? Or will they set a deadline and then shut everything down, to try and force people to migrate to their new game?

Is there any precedent for this?

[Lute Skywatcher]

Everquest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest) is still going strong three years after the sequel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everquest_2) was released.

[Bosstone]

Shoot, even Ultima Online is still going in some form or another. I believe they set it up so people can create their own private servers so Origin's bandwidth isn't taxed, but people certainly still play it.

[Szlater]

Eve Online (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_online) is still going strong, and the company (CCP) continues to produce updates for it, five years after it was released.

[Bosstone]

Eve Online (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_online) is still going strong, and the company (CCP) continues to produce updates for it, five years after it was released.Sure, but EVE continues to grow, or it was last time I looked at it about half a year ago. The OP was asking about old popular MMOs that are dwindling in popularity, which games like EVE and City of Heroes certainly aren't, despite their age.

It's been a few years since I last played FFXI, so I don't know if it's still going strong or what. I imagine it's still a favorite in Japan, but the US seems to have been taken by WoW.

[fluiddruid]

Frankly, I can't think of any major MMORPGs that have reached this point in their lifespan. Even Ultima Online is still around and chugging. Most MMORPGs seem to do well with frequent expansions and subscription fees.

Heck, MUDs are still around and used by many people -- I play a MUD, Ancient Anguish, on a regular basis and it has been around since the early 90s (though we've gone from 120 people online to 60 or so at peaktime since our highest point).

[Snarky_Kong]

Everquest has consolidated a lot though. They combined servers and the like.

[RogueRacer]

Everquest is likely to be the first case study for this. Everquest has had 14 expansions to date. They have combined servers once to try to increase the available players for raiding/grouping. Keep in mind that Everquest has many more zones to spread people out than it did early on, so combining the servers doesn't speak directly of server population.

One big problem right now is that hackers seem to be taking over. They were/are using client side hacks to "ghost kill" mobs that haven't been killed yet by players using legitimate means. The hackers also found a way to crash an EQ server at will. They were using this to grief guilds that were getting close to various achievements.

Unfortunately, SonyEQ seems unwilling to permanently ban these people. To me this could lead to the death of the game more than anything else. They really need to get a hand on things even if it costs them thousands of accounts and sales of new games to the hackers and plat sellers. SonyEQ needs to realize that once the real players get sick of it and quit, the plat sellers will leave too, having no one to sell to.

[Pithy Moniker]

I'd love to see them re-tune the old EQ game as a single player experience and re-release it expansion by expansion. Such is only the stuff of dreams though.

[Bosstone]

It's probably worth noting that there's plenty of unpopular games that get the boot. Auto Assault, which I found to be fun but lacking in a lot of areas, got canned when there simply wasn't enough profitable interest. A shame, because I think there could be a market for a post-apocalyptic car game, but Auto Assault just couldn't fill it.

[Lute Skywatcher]

They really need to get a hand on things even if it costs them thousands of accounts and sales of new games to the hackers and plat sellers.NCSoft recently unveiled plans to require level 10 before allowing the sending of emails in CoX. That should thin out the spammers there a little: no more spamming those who are offline without actually playing the game for nine levels. I wonder if Sony ever thought of anthing similar.

[Lute Skywatcher]

It's probably worth noting that there's plenty of unpopular games that get the boot. Auto Assault, which I found to be fun but lacking in a lot of areas, got canned when there simply wasn't enough profitable interest. A shame, because I think there could be a market for a post-apocalyptic car game, but Auto Assault just couldn't fill it.MMOs that invovle driving seem to quickly stagnate. EA took their Need for Speed franchise online in the form of Motor City, which only lasted two years. It was taken down partly due to lack of interest, partly lag, and partly because EA wanted to devote their servers to The Sims Online.

[Autumn Almanac]

Everquest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest) is still going strong three years after the sequel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everquest_2) was released.Interesting. I wonder how much the player base has to shrink before it stops being profitable to maintain the servers, and how long it would take to get to that point. I guess if the players are loyal enough, maybe decades, maybe never.

[Antinor01]

Heck, MUDs are still around and used by many people -- I play a MUD, Ancient Anguish, on a regular basis and it has been around since the early 90s (though we've gone from 120 people online to 60 or so at peaktime since our highest point).

Yep, I play a MUD that is now 20 years old. and GM for another that will turn 10 in april.

[Critical1]

Everquest is still running pretty strong, granted you are talking about the first of the insanely big games in the genre.

this is in spite of crappy customer service starting from day 1
in spite of rampant hacking that started most likely on day 2 and hackers are never ever banned or as far as I have seen even punished.

some of the game is incredible and still unmatched in any game out there, other parts are painfully out of date and when I found my account was active (they do that some times just a free month or 2) from a friend and logged back in it was the crazy out of date parts that make the game unplayable for me. for some people that isnt a game breaker so they keep playing, keep in mind some EQ players will have literal Years of time played on their toons.

with games like WoW its a huge improvement on a lot of levels but doesnt have the long term appeal for me.

what I want in a game like that is the complexity of EQ combined with the better play of WoW.

on the other hand I really dont want to see that, cause I would probably end up playing the hell out of it.

I will be honest I would probably still play eq if they had ever upgraded or changed a couple things. given that I am a picky basterd there are no doubt a ton of players who will still be playing the game 10 years from now given the chance.

[Agent Foxtrot]

Everquest is likely to be the first case study for this. Everquest has had 14 expansions to date. They have combined servers once to try to increase the available players for raiding/grouping. Keep in mind that Everquest has many more zones to spread people out than it did early on, so combining the servers doesn't speak directly of server population.

One big problem right now is that hackers seem to be taking over. They were/are using client side hacks to "ghost kill" mobs that haven't been killed yet by players using legitimate means. The hackers also found a way to crash an EQ server at will. They were using this to grief guilds that were getting close to various achievements.

Unfortunately, SonyEQ seems unwilling to permanently ban these people. To me this could lead to the death of the game more than anything else. They really need to get a hand on things even if it costs them thousands of accounts and sales of new games to the hackers and plat sellers. SonyEQ needs to realize that once the real players get sick of it and quit, the plat sellers will leave too, having no one to sell to.Final Fantasy XI player here, four years strong.

Your comment reminded me a bit of the biggest problem with FFXI: Real-Money Traders or "RMT's". Basically, companies like IGE hire Chinese players by the hundreds to do nothing but farm gil (FFXI currency) in the game. The gil is in turn sold back to the players for real money. Eventually, the RMT's got bold, forming their own groups to camp monsters who dropped valuable items, which led to them stealing the mobs from legitimate parties. The huge influx of money meant exponential inflation, rendering the carefully-designed economy ruined. Square-Enix refused to do anything for a long time, but after enough prodding from the players, eventually changed their policies and banned hundreds of RMT accounts. They also made many of the "good" drops untransferable between players, so you can't sell them.

The RMT companies ended up hacking the accounts of hundreds of rich players and stealing their gil and valuable items. SE's being extremely resistant to do anything, especially since the laws here in the U.S. don't force them to.

If anything will be the death of FFXI, it'll be RMT's.

[smiling bandit]

I have to say the economy issue is what threw me off of FFXI the second time (the first was hideous grinding). OK, I made a commitment to play thorugh boring sections and I said to myself, "I canhandle the irritatingly long and not-at-all fun levelling grind".

But I simply couldn't afford anything. Nothing at all. Things just cost so much that I could never hope to improve my equipment. That's absolutely critical in the game, and thus I could never hope to have any real fun with it.

SE had my account in the bag TWICE and lost it; the first time to bad gameplay which made things unpleasntly hard, and the second to not fixing the economy. So I went over to WoW and have such a huge blast every night I play. Every aspect of it is just fantastically better.

[Apocalypso]

Anarchy Online (http://www.anarchy-online.com/wsp/anarchy/frontend.cgi?func=frontend.show&template=main) is getting pretty old by now. The basic strategy (like with every other MMORPG) is pretty much release expansions and major patches every so often.
They instituted a "Froob" system a while back (at least a year and a half ago), where you could play the basic game, but not the expansions, for free. Seems to work pretty well. You can still do a lot of cool stuff, and get a lot of cool items, but the bulk of the game is now in the expansions. Having the basic game for free with no limitations on gameplay, levels, etc, is a great feature I wish more games would offer. It's a pretty deep game (especially when compared to the click click click the WoW offers), and the free offer gives you time to really check out the game and it's deeper features before deciding to pony up the cash ($15 a month, with nice discounts for longer subscriptions).

AO is getting really dated in terms of graphics and sound though. There are NO lighting effects, very very little in terms of sound effects, and you can tell the game's engine is 7 or 8 years old. I wasn't around in the beginning, so I don't know if AO has ever been top notch in terms of graphics and sound. The main appeal of the game seems to be the sci-fi hook (though I wish it was more...sci-fi-ey), and an incredibly deep crafting system. There's literally thousands of cool items you can make, weapons, armor, and all manner of gadgets and doodads. There also seems to be a pretty robust pvp system (I don't like pvp though). Obviously you can group and powerlevel, but you can also take your time and solo most of the game if you want to (you'll still need to team up for some items/quests though). There's also a huge amount of quests and items to find/camp, and Funcom has been patching in a fair amount of new items, quests, and nanos (spells) recently, both for "froob" and for the expansion players.

Still, the audience isn't what it once was, and Funcom has been pretty busy with their new toy, Age of Conan. I'm guessing AO will continue probably at least a few more years before it kicks the bucket. I'd love to see an AO II with a brand new graphics engine and some of the neat little things like auto loot rolling offered by newer games like WoW. I doubt if that'll happen though.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Giving Anarchy Online a try now.

[Max the Immortal]

I have to say the economy issue is what threw me off of FFXI the second time (the first was hideous grinding). OK, I made a commitment to play thorugh boring sections and I said to myself, "I canhandle the irritatingly long and not-at-all fun levelling grind".

But I simply couldn't afford anything. Nothing at all. Things just cost so much that I could never hope to improve my equipment. That's absolutely critical in the game, and thus I could never hope to have any real fun with it.

SE had my account in the bag TWICE and lost it; the first time to bad gameplay which made things unpleasntly hard, and the second to not fixing the economy. So I went over to WoW and have such a huge blast every night I play. Every aspect of it is just fantastically better.

This is almost exactly my experience. I figured out how to make money, but it was like pulling teeth. I switched to WoW about a year ago, and haven't looked back. Well, that and I got fed up fighting crabs and bunnies and bees almost exclusively.

[Bosstone]

Well, that and I got fed up fighting crabs and bunnies and bees almost exclusively.This is why I've been enjoying Tabula Rasa and City of Heroes. In Tabula Rasa, there is wildlife, some of which is hostile, but for the most part you're fighting against a (theoretically intelligent) invading force. They do a good job of giving you the perception that your actions mean something in the war, even as a lowbie. City of Heroes, being an urban landscape, offers completely different enemies than random wildlife, with thugs, criminals, robots, mages, and other things that are fun to punch.

[DigitalC]

Any shrinking of the player base is followed by the shrinking of the support/expenses for the game. Servers get merged, customer service downsized, developers move to other projects. You can keep a few servers running with a ghost crew just to make sure things are running smoothly as long as there are still some subscribers and they don't expect any more content updates. No game is at this stage yet though, although it wouldn't surprise me if it happened to the original EQ in the next few years.

[Balance]

In Tabula Rasa, there is wildlife, some of which is hostile....
You are a master of understatement. Unless they've massively nerfed the xanx and fithik, the bugs are more dangerous than the marauding aliens. I watched one night as one xanx ate three Predator ships without even belching. The fithik may be even worse.

[Bosstone]

You are a master of understatement. Unless they've massively nerfed the xanx and fithik, the bugs are more dangerous than the marauding aliens. I watched one night as one xanx ate three Predator ships without even belching. The fithik may be even worse.I've been following the patches (City of Heroes is taking up all my time right now), and every other one they scale the wildlife back a few notches. The fithik get nerfed hard often. I agree, that was a weird imbalance. Still, you're fighting the real enemy from the get-go, instead of being forced to train up on boargars for a couple levels.

[Tastes of Chocolate]

I'm wondering if Sony's station pass idea will spread. For about twice the monthly cost of a single game, their station pass gives you access to pretty much all the MMOG's they are running.

I can see, for example:
EQ's life being extended, by people who now only play every other Tuesday with a set group of people.
Those same people are more inclined to play the newest Sony game, because they are already paying for the multigame pass.

As said above, it can't cost much to keep a game up and running, if you aren't doing any development for it. Why not use it as a hook to keep players buying your new games?

[Apocalypso]

Giving Anarchy Online a try now. Unfortunately my accounts are not active right now (I'm trying to focus on some RL stuff), or I could show you around a bit. The game's kind of complex to give quick tips, but I can answer any questions you might have. Most of the game's players are pretty friendly, so don't be afraid to ask questions! The game features player organizations, called orgs. You might try finding an org geared toward newer players, they'll help you out a lot, and give you some people to play with.

I'm wondering if Sony's station pass idea will spread. For about twice the monthly cost of a single game, their station pass gives you access to pretty much all the MMOG's they are running.
...
As said above, it can't cost much to keep a game up and running, if you aren't doing any development for it. Why not use it as a hook to keep players buying your new games?

Sounds like a cool idea for being able to try different games and find one to your liking. I can forsee a few problems though:
1) Any online game developer will tell you that keeping up with hackers, scammers, etc, is a constant battle. If there's not at least bug/exploit fixing patches coming out, the game will be overrun with hackers and exploiters. And even minor patches require a LOT of coding and testing.
2) A game which you're not doing any active development for is going to lose its audience pretty quickly. Nothing new in the works means no incentive for the longtime players to keep going.
3) Online games require a much bigger time investment than single player games. I have never had time to play more than one online game at a time. A single player game can be beaten in anywhere from a few days to a month or two. To get people to keep playing (and paying) online games, the character cycle is much longer and more drawn out. I remember reading somewhere that the optimum time to max a character out in an online game is about 6 months.

[JayRx1981]

Any shrinking of the player base is followed by the shrinking of the support/expenses for the game. Servers get merged, customer service downsized, developers move to other projects. You can keep a few servers running with a ghost crew just to make sure things are running smoothly as long as there are still some subscribers and they don't expect any more content updates. No game is at this stage yet though, although it wouldn't surprise me if it happened to the original EQ in the next few years.

Strictly speaking, that's exactly what happened to Asheron's Call 2. Admittedly, most didn't find the game all that enjoyable (there was a huge content gap in the upper levels), but it lasted for at least a year longer than it would have due to server merges and such. Of course, eventually they had to shut it down, and I wouldn't be surprised if the teams involved weren't transferred over to D&DO and MEO.

Too bad, really, AC2 was probably the most enjoyable MMO to single in of the 5 I've played (EQ, WoW, FFXI, and AC are the other 4). I miss ya, my crazy 4000 health Feral Intendent.