Is there any evidence that porn incites sex crimes?

[Aaron White]

I'm arguing with a beloved porn publisher about the subject of rape-fantasy porn. I'm not a bit opposed to porn itself, but rape-fantasy porn scares me, and not just viscerally. He claims that "there is absolutely no evidence that pornography of any kind leads to an increase in sex crimes." I suspect that this is like saying that there's no evidence that The Turner Diaries lead to an increase in bombings or that fringe religious materials lead to an increase in clinic shootings.

Let me emphasize that I am not calling for censorship or suggesting a simple cause-and-effect relationship here. Nor am I looking for anything about how porn is sinful or whatever. I'm just wondering if my friend's assertion is well founded.

[Sterra]

Id say that some people will rape wether or not they read something or not. The rape will probably occur in the readers mind instead of reality.

[peace]

Is there any evidence that porn incites sex crimes?
NO.

[Aaron White]

I guess it's silly to expect any useful replies in the first ten minutes...

[Chronos]

Assuming, of course, that those two replies were neither one useful. It is very possible that nobody has ever found statistically significant evidence of a connection. This does not imply that there is or is not a connection, just that there's no evidence for it. This is essentially what peace said, although not in so many words.

[Geek Mecha]

If there was any such evidence, it would have been used to attack the porn industry by now.

I think the best data you could reasonably hope to find is strong correlational data, such as a correlation between purchasing/watching porn and committing sex crimes, for example. But since correlation does not equal causation, even that kind of data is not going to answer the question very satisfactorily.

And hey, peace's and Asmodean's answers may not be "useful", but at least they replied.

[Aaron White]

Okay, to be fair, Asmo actually addressed the issue, but I can't parse out his/her statements, so it's a tough call. And yes or no assertions are not only less that I was looking for, but contrary to the spirit of Cecil. Imagine if he brushed questions off with yes or no!

Thanks to Chronos and AudreyK.

[xizor]

Porn causes rape about as much as Heavy Metal music causes teen suicide. There is no correlation. Porn and rape are 2 interests the sexual deviant has, just like some teens are into Judas Priest and suicide. I do not see one causing the other.

[peace]

What are sex crimes? Sodomy? Bestiality? Most psychologists consider rape "a violent" crime, not a "sex" crime. Rape is usually commited in order to "establish" oneself, to proove own "superiority", not for sexual gratification per se.

[tomndebb]

After the Johnson/Nixon-era presidential commission was not able to produce any documentation of a link, the idea was resurrected under Reagan. His presidential commission came back with the "porn is bad" line that they had been sent out to find.

The three members of the commission who were actual social scientists and who had not known what they were supposed to find before the commission started, wrote a minority report pointing out that the commisssion had ignored all the evidence in favor of emotional pleadings at their hearings.

The social scientists said that, despite the majority's conclusions, there was no evidence for a link between pornogragphy/erotica and sexual crimes....

except that there was a certain amount of correlation between people who read violent porn and people who committed crimes of sexual imposition of one sort or another.

Unfortunately, it has been 14 years or so since that report was released. I don't know whether the correlation was since shown to have causality or not (or whether the correlation has been shown to be false). I also do not know what was defined as "violent" and what was labelled as sexual imposition.

The Reagan era "study" was known as the Attorney General's Commission on Pornography. Most of the web hits are simply lists of places where you can find it in print.

[KarlGauss]

If you extend the defintion of "sex crime", I mean really extend it, to include the concept of systematic and ingrained societal prejudice against women, well, yes, I think it does lead to "crime".

The pornography I've seen (and that's not a helluva a lot) seems to perpetuate the role of women as subservient and that of men as dominant. The woman is there to gratify the man. She is an instrument for his pleasure. Nothing more. This dehumanizes the woman in the film, or magazine, or whatever, and thereby runs the risk of dehumanizing all women.

No doubt you will ask how, if I've been exposed to porn, have I avoided being adversely influenced by it. Indeed, I have no completely logical or objective answer except to say that although I have not been so influenced, I believe that (many) others have. Maybe if I hadn't had so many lucky breaks and opportunities in my life (good education, good social net, etc.) it would have been different.

I am opening myself up for attack as being a deigning, arrogant, patronizing bastard, but at least I'm an honest bastard.

[ricksummon]

If you think pornography has an effect on sexual crimes, then how do you explain Japan? In Japan, they've got pornographic anime and manga that makes any domestic stuff look G-rated, and yet, their society is virtually crime-free.

[smartt]

As a porn magazine editor, I must say: NO. No evidence at all. There are mentions of sex crimes in the Bible, and porn wasn't even invented at the time. So, no, but no.

[tomndebb]

There are mentions of sex crimes in the Bible, and porn wasn't even invented at the time.

As a porn editor, you should know the history of your product better. There has been porn for about as long as there has been writing.

(I'm not arguing for a link between porn and sexual imposition, only noting that porn is at least as old as the bible.)

[Gaspode]

I can rememeber this debate going on seriously about 10 years ago. There was an article printed at the time (sorry no chance of a reference) stating that in cases where police were granted a warrant to search sex-offenders houses pornographic material was found in the vast majority. I can't remember specific figures after this amount of time but it was in the range of 75%. This sounded like a fairly high correlation, except that as the researcher pointed out the majority of offenders were males aged between 18 and 45, and that other surveys had suggested that something like 80% of males in this age group had pornography in their houses. The conclusion was that the use of pornography may actually lead to a lowering of the incidence of sex-offences. Admittedely there are some glaring deficiencies in the survey technique.
On the history of pornography, one of the oldest human artefacts is the "Venus of Willendorf', a statuette of a naked, large breasted woman. There are also numerous prehistoric cave paintings in southern Africa depicting men with comically large erections, so pornography has actually been around longer than writing.

[puddleglum]

This would be a very difficult study to design, you would have to select two groups of males and give porno to one and not the other and then record the number of sex crimes in one versus the other. The only other way to do it that I can see would be to test sex offenders versus the norm of society but even this could have a third variable. So I dont think you could ever prove inciting crime even if there is a correlation.

[mikan]

If you think pornography has an effect on sexual crimes, then how do you explain Japan? In Japan, they've got pornographic anime and manga that makes any domestic stuff look G-rated, and yet, their society is virtually crime-free.
Yes, the image of Japan as virtually "crime-free" is indeed a popular one, but it hardly applies to sex-related offenses. There is PLENTY of rape, groping/fondling on crowded rush-hour trains, sexual harassment at work, etc. in Japan, though much of it goes unreported.

Is there a link between this kind of behavior and the consumption of pornographic -- and often sexually violent -- manga or anime? I'd have to go with KarlGauss on this one: certainly this kind of material, especially when it's as prevalent as it is in Japan, shapes societal attitudes toward women and how they are to be treated. It helps define the broad parameters of what counts as normal and acceptable behavior, and while it may not turn the average guy on the street into a rapist, at the very least it contributes to a climate in which countless lesser sexual "crimes" against women can routinely take place.

That's what I think about Japan, anyway. But I don't feel that pornographic material itself necessarily leads to sexually violent or abusive behavior. How it's received, and the influence it has, will depend on the particular place that porn occupies among the various other ideas, images, attitudes, etc. toward women floating around in society. (The ideas are floating, not the women.) There are, hopefully, countervailing forces in people's lives that allow them to view porn and sort of wink at it at the same time.

Still, I'd keep way clear of anyone whose primary form of entertainment is watching or reading porn.

[handy]

Sounds like a GD to me. As if we didn't talk about it there already, did we?

Anyway, back to the OP, sure, I believe it does. For the simple reason that those people who didn't know how sex works, would know how it works after watching porno. Then they can do the act. Easy.

[bryanmcc]

ah, but KarlGauss, your assertation implies that there is a problem with a particular type of porn, but not with porn per se. admittedly, that type of porn (porn which dehuminizes women) is the norm in our society, but the solution in not to ban porn, but rather to create porn that portrays women in a more sexually equal atmosphere.

-b

[Badtz Maru]

I don't think that porn necessarily portrays women as nothing more than pleasure tools. Porn is made to be incorporated into fantasies, and in virtually all porn the woman is at least pretending to really like it - that's because for most men the woman's pleasure is very important, the fact you can make someone feel so good is one of the main empowering elements of sex for both men and women. There IS porn which does not portray the women as enjoying it, and even some where the woman supposedly doesn't want it, but that is not typical of most American pornography.

[DMC]

There are mentions of sex crimes in the Bible, and porn wasn't even invented at the time.

I guess you haven't read the Old Testament book titled "The Song of Solomon" with an open mind. It might be a love letter, but it's still dirty (and good).

On that note, has anyone ever been to a church service where the topic of the sermon/mass was that particular book of the Bible? I keep looking at the signs of every church I pass, but to no avail.

[KarlGauss]

Originally posted by bryanmcc
ah, but KarlGauss, your assertation implies that there is a problem with a particular type of porn, but not with porn per se. admittedly, that type of porn (porn which dehuminizes women) is the norm in our society, but the solution in not to ban porn, but rather to create porn that portrays women in a more sexually equal atmosphere.

-b

Yes, I think you have identified a key point. I, implicitly, defined "porn" in a narrow way. In fact, I have no qualms about a film, say, showing a couple making love, in all possible ways, so long as they're both portrayed as equals. I wouldn't even call that "porn"

After thinking a bit more about this, I also wondered where "gay porn" would fit in. My argument would seem not to apply there too.

[Needs2know]

If you are interested in some opinions on the effects of pornography, nature v. nurture and other issues that may have a link to sex crime perpetrators I can suggest some reading. Read anything by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker such as "Anatomy of Motive". Anything by Robert Ressler. These guys are former FBI "profilers". And while social scientists, psychologists, and psychiatrists may look at these issues their theories and conclusions are often drawn from a broad clinical standpoint. These guys however know fully well of all the mitigating cirmcumstances behind the behavior of sexual preditors but their view is a little more up close and personal. Douglas and a few of his other collegues have studied some of our most dangerous and notorious, as well as the virtually unknown.

There has indeed been no established correlation between the consumption of pornography and violent sexual behavior. But it is true that for many sex offenders violent pornography is a stone in the path of their progression. Just as peeping and breaking and entering are often part of the progression from simple obcession and petty crime to more serious crimes of rape, sexual assualt and murder.

It was also noted that several of our very famous and very dangerous serial sexual preditors, such as Ted Bundy, had copies of "Catcher in the Rye" in their possesion at the time of arrest.

Needs2know

[smartt]

Originally posted by tomndebb
There are mentions of sex crimes in the Bible, and porn wasn't even invented at the time.

As a porn editor, you should know the history of your product better. There has been porn for about as long as there has been writing.


So what? They weren't available to the jewish tribes at the time. And saying that "there has been por for about as long as there has been writing" is a silly generalization. You can go as far as that and cite the Venus of Willendorf as the very first nude pin-up, but that doesn't mean it's PORN as we know it in present days.

[smartt]

Originally posted by DMC
There are mentions of sex crimes in the Bible, and porn wasn't even invented at the time.
I guess you haven't read the Old Testament book titled "The Song of Solomon" with an open mind. It might be a love letter, but it's still dirty (and good).

Yeah, but it isn't PORN. I don't thing God put that on the Bible for people to masturbate with.

Besides, it's the other way around. Porn doesn't incite sex crimes, but sex criminals buy porn by the truckloads.

[smartt]

Originally posted by DMC
There are mentions of sex crimes in the Bible, and porn wasn't even invented at the time.
I guess you haven't read the Old Testament book titled "The Song of Solomon" with an open mind. It might be a love letter, but it's still dirty (and good).

Yeah, but it isn't PORN. I don't think God put that on the Bible for people to masturbate with.

Besides, it's the other way around. Porn doesn't incite sex crimes, but sex criminals buy porn by the truckloads.

[Irishman]

It seems to me that everyone is going off in a dozen different directions without first agreeing on what you are talking about. Specifically, what is meant by porn. Any naked pictures? Just visual depictions of sexual acts? Only depictions of sexual acts that are characterized by possessiveness and domination or power and control vs. loving interaction? Is written text (i.e. descriptive stories) included, or just visual media?

Everyone is using different assumptions on the above questions and talking around each other.

How about to fit with the OP, we define "porn" to mean "depictions of sexual acts, whether visual (pictures, sculpture, movies, live simulations, etc) or written, for the purposes of sexual excitement." The specific subset the OP was mainly interested in is violent "rape", or "forced" extreme BDSM.

Let's not argue if the Bible is porn or not, or how long porn has been around. Let's stick to whether porn (especially the violent "rape" type) affects behavior, and especially any studies that correlate the two or fail to correlate the two.

[zen101]

Pornography does incite crime in states where masturbation is illegal. :)

[tomndebb]

So what? They weren't available to the jewish tribes at the time. And saying that "there has been porn for about as long as there has been writing" is a silly generalization.

That generalization is far less silly than claiming that porn had not been invented at the time the bible was written or (with absolutely no evidence) that Jews would somehow not have had access to it.

The indications are that pornography is always one of the first uses to which any non-verbal medium is put: Within a year or so of the first printed bibles, people were printing pornography; within a year or so of the first tintype cameras, people were creating pornography on plates (and the same thing happened as soon as Eastman moved photography over to film); among the earliest movies were filmed sex acts; the moment that VHS cameras came out, a whole expanded industry sprang up. This has been true of all representational or literary art: as soon as a society (India, Rome, China, whoever) has gotten the knack for creating pictures of coitus--they have produced those pictures.

Given that background, speculating that pornography accompanied the earliest attempts at writing is fairly safe. (Not proven, but a safe guess.)

Asserting that the literate members of the tribes of Israel would have no access to pornography demands something more than your say so (especially given the nature of the neighboring Canaanite religions with their emphasis on fertility rites).

[smartt]

Originally posted by tomndebb
[quote]Asserting that the literate members of the tribes of Israel would have no access to pornography demands something more than your say so (especially given the nature of the neighboring Canaanite religions with their emphasis on fertility rites).


FERTILITY rites. That's not porn.
FERTILITY rites, and everything that was written about that at the time, had the purpose to stimulate reproduction. Make babies.

PORN's goal, per se, is make people jack off. And with condoms, onanistic techniques and variant places to deposit sperm (breats, face, etc), babies are an item left out of the mix.

[zen101]

Originally posted by smartt
Originally posted by tomndebb
[quote]Asserting that the literate members of the tribes of Israel would have no access to pornography demands something more than your say so (especially given the nature of the neighboring Canaanite religions with their emphasis on fertility rites).


FERTILITY rites. That's not porn.
FERTILITY rites, and everything that was written about that at the time, had the purpose to stimulate reproduction. Make babies.

PORN's goal, per se, is make people jack off. And with condoms, onanistic techniques and variant places to deposit sperm (breats, face, etc), babies are an item left out of the mix.


You know the difference between a "fertility" rite and "pornography"? One is condoned by the local diety's PR people. You seem to be pretty clueless about your own industry "Mr.Porn Magazine Editor". As for how long porn has been available to people. I'm not sure about in written form but there is a temple in India that has stone carvings predating Christ by a good many years and all the carvings are of some really kinky sex acts. Also there are cave paintings depicting such things as beastiality as well as regular coitus between cave man and cave woman. Tell me, is deer humping a fertility rite? Wonder what the deer think about it.

[tomndebb]

smartt, good way to avoid the rest of your errors.

In fact, while the religious acts of fertility rites are, indeed, not created for pornographic intent (and the majority of the Victorians who drooled over the subject seriously overstated the orgiastic nature of most such rites), those same rites (and any accompanying literature), when viewed from outside the culture/religion that bred them tend to be treated as pornography (hence the drooling Victorians).

Look, you threw out a flawed one-liner and got called on it. Let it go and move on.

[zen101]

Originally posted by tomndebb
smartt, good way to avoid the rest of your errors.

In fact, while the religious acts of fertility rites are, indeed, not created for pornographic intent (and the majority of the Victorians who drooled over the subject seriously overstated the orgiastic nature of most such rites), those same rites (and any accompanying literature), when viewed from outside the culture/religion that bred them tend to be treated as pornography (hence the drooling Victorians).

Look, you threw out a flawed one-liner and got called on it. Let it go and move on.

Tom~

Well said. You have been here a lot longer than me so maybe you could answer a question I have that relates to this. I know it's not good to say something like "smart you are a moron" for example, but is it ok to say "I would like to say samrt, that you are a moron. But I wont."?

Just hypothetically speaking, of course.

Does it smell like rook in here or is that just me?

[smartt]

Originally posted by tomndebb
smartt, good way to avoid the rest of your errors.

Sure. Everybody's here's perfect but me. Yeah, right.

In fact, while the religious acts of fertility rites are, indeed, not created for pornographic intent (and the majority of the Victorians who drooled over the subject seriously overstated the orgiastic nature of most such rites), those same rites (and any accompanying literature), when viewed from outside the culture/religion that bred them tend to be treated as pornography (hence the drooling Victorians).

So? That's taking things out of context. HUSTLER was intended to be pornographic since day one. But if fertility rites are VIEWED as pornographic by another society with different P.O.V., that a completely different matter.

And about the bestiality aspect of some carvings, those aren't fertility rites, NOT porn. In fact, Cecil wrote about it. Go look for it before you bash me with more bull.

[smartt]

Originally posted by zen101
Well said. You have been here a lot longer than me so maybe you could answer a question I have that relates to this. I know it's not good to say something like "smart you are a moron" for example, but is it ok to say "I would like to say samrt, that you are a moron. But I wont."?

Just hypothetically speaking, of course.

Does it smell like rook in here or is that just me?




You just LOVE to incite a flame, don't you? Sorry dude, I'm not fall for that.

[smartt]

Originally posted by zen101
Well said. You have been here a lot longer than me so maybe you could answer a question I have that relates to this. I know it's not good to say something like "smart you are a moron" for example, but is it ok to say "I would like to say samrt, that you are a moron. But I wont."?

Just hypothetically speaking, of course.

Does it smell like rook in here or is that just me?




You just LOVE to incite a flame, don't you? Sorry dude, I'm not falling for that.

[tomndebb]

Sure. Everybody's here's perfect but me. Yeah, right.

What can I say? When you're right, you're right!

Look. You made the claim that pornography had not been invented at the time the bible was written. I have no idea why you would make such a strange claim, but it simply is not a supportable assertion. You can dance around the topic and redefine pornography to mean some really specific type of literature that only appeared when you want it to have appeared, but I would suggest that your time would be better spent doing a search on erotic literature or pornography among ancient cultures so that you don't make the same sort of mistake in the future. (I would think that as a purveyor of such stuff, you'd take a proprietary interest in knowing as much about the history of your product as you could. Claiming that pornography was invented sometime after 1300 BCE is simply going to get you in trouble.)

I'm done with this hijack.

[peace]

This thread reminds me of something I heard many years ago: All cucumber eaters get colon cancer.
Stupid as it is this fallacy demonstrates that two differet events may be superficially connected, but causatively totally unrelated.
First of all, I'd like to use "rape", instead of vague "sex crimes". Besides, as I said, "sex crimes" is a misnomer.

I think that rape was known before pornografy was invented. I do not think that painting sexual scenes or viewing them encouraged rape. I'd rather they were painted by rapists.

I'll never rape anyone. You may show me pornography 24/7, it won't change it. I do not know if all rapists view pornography, but I think that more sex-offenders will be found among stip-joint visitors than among library readers. Do rapists do pornography as a warm up for rape? And total ban on pornography will diminish the imcidence of rape? Will complete "freedom" of pornography produce more rapists? I think that potential rapists may view pornography, but pornography by itself cannot attract uninterested men or make anyone a rapist. I remember seeing dozens of pornmagazines covers on Italian newsstands everywhere. In America, "Playboy" or "Hustler" are displayed with only the title visible. Not once I saw genitalia there when I saw full covers. In Italy, not only what commonly known as "external genitalia" was very visible, but much more. Everyone sees them, children... I know about Italian mafia, etc., but I've never heard of rape there as a major crime problem.
I'd like to see the opinions of our Scandinavian friends.
Not exactly pornography, topless dancing can be viewed on broadcst (not cable) TV in many countries.
Once again, sexual urges can motivate masturbation. Violent personality underlies rape.

[Chronos]

zen101, hypothetically speaking, you can't say things against people in this forum. You can say whatever you want about a person's ideas in this forum, and you can insult people in the BBQ Pit, if you so choose (I believe that smartt already has a thread dedicated to him there). Take your pick. Meanwhile, if you have any suspiscions about a person's identity, the open board is not the place to discuss them. Send an e-mail to a moderator or administrator, and we can investigate it and take any appropriate action.

[zen101]

Originally posted by Chronos
zen101, hypothetically speaking, you can't say things against people in this forum. You can say whatever you want about a person's ideas in this forum, and you can insult people in the BBQ Pit, if you so choose (I believe that smartt already has a thread dedicated to him there). Take your pick. Meanwhile, if you have any suspiscions about a person's identity, the open board is not the place to discuss them. Send an e-mail to a moderator or administrator, and we can investigate it and take any appropriate action.


Well I'm glad I asked first then. :)