Explain to me the appeal of WoW, Second Life, etc. [Archive]

Bosstone

02-06-2008, 09:48 AM

Just wanted to be sure. God knows there's enough loonies out there that do think that.

As for the bulk of your question, you seem to be referring to online games primarily. MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, EVE Online, City of Heroes, etc. are mostly about careers and doing what seems like work, and yeah, to some people it probably is. That's why there's also games like Katamari Damacy, Team Fortress 2, Peggle (one of the most insidious casual games I've ever played), and countless other games that are nothing like real-life simulations.

The point is more about the community than the game itself, honestly. I love EVE Online to death, but my friends stopped playing it and so did I, because without my friends there's just not much fun in it. Right now I'm heavily invested in City of Heroes, which is a flawed game in many, many ways, the least of which is that 90% of my time in game is spent pressing a few buttons over and over to beat up an endless stream of enemies. If the game were just that, it'd be boring as sin. But I'm involved with a large community of pretty savvy people, and it's talking to them, doing things with them, that makes the game fun. (And some people do in fact enjoy doing tedious things over and over again; I found this essay (http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2006/08/in_praise_of_th.html) today while responding to another thread.)

This is more apparent in Second Life. I've never tried it myself, but it's not even really a game. There's no real objectives, no combat system or anything like that. (Anyone who knows more can correct me if I'm wrong.) It's really just one enormous graphical chat room where people can get together and do things unencumbered by geographical limitations. So are the other online games; it's just that WoW and CoH provide things for you to do, whereas with Second Life you've got to come up with your own entertainment.

KneadToKnow

02-06-2008, 09:58 AM

First, thank you. You've brought a lot of stuff up that starts to open doors for me, and I appreciate that. I've highlighted below the main one I wish to know more about for now. (And forgive me for my ignorance on this, but, hey, that's why we're all here, right?) You say in part
But I'm involved with a large community of pretty savvy people, and it's talking to them, doing things with them, that makes the game fun.
Which I take to mean not that you hang out in a big room actually in the presence of the people and literally talking to them and doing things with them, but that this community, talking, and doing, is in the virtual space of the game or some parallel space (IM, chat, etc.)? So, if you'll excuse what I'm sure is a massive over-simplification, it's a hobby that you engage in with other people which gives you the vehicle by which to carry out friendships?

[Why do I suddenly feel like Cmdr. Data?]

Licentious Ectomorph

02-06-2008, 10:23 AM

The point is more about the community than the game itself, honestly. I love EVE Online to death, but my friends stopped playing it and so did I, because without my friends there's just not much fun in it. Right now I'm heavily invested in City of Heroes, which is a flawed game in many, many ways, the least of which is that 90% of my time in game is spent pressing a few buttons over and over to beat up an endless stream of enemies. If the game were just that, it'd be boring as sin. But I'm involved with a large community of pretty savvy people, and it's talking to them, doing things with them, that makes the game fun. (And some people do in fact enjoy doing tedious things over and over again; I found this essay (http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2006/08/in_praise_of_th.html) today while responding to another thread.)
For me, the combat/button-mashing (and having my character look fabulous while doing it) is the point of City of Heroes. All the extraneous stuff like crafting, auctioning, etc., is boring as hell and I can't be bothered with it.

Bosstone

02-06-2008, 10:29 AM

Which I take to mean not that you hang out in a big room actually in the presence of the people and literally talking to them and doing things with them, but that this community, talking, and doing, is in the virtual space of the game or some parallel space (IM, chat, etc.)? So, if you'll excuse what I'm sure is a massive over-simplification, it's a hobby that you engage in with other people which gives you the vehicle by which to carry out friendships?Yeah, exactly. It's like the SDMB, at least in its early incarnation: a group of people liked Cecil's columns, so they got together to talk about the columns on the message board. If someone finds working on Ford trucks fun, they can probably find a good online community that likes talking about trucks.

Now of course, I'm not going to say the game is irrelevant. Since I'm into City of Heroes right now, I'll use that as an example. The framework is a game based on superheroes who run around the city stomping out crime. There's enough plot in the game to give it some direction, but like I said, the action tends to be repetitive and would almost certainly get boring in a single-player game.

However, I'm involved with a group of people organized around intelligent roleplay in the game, with links to other groups. When I'm in the game, I have access to something like four chat channels with various people on them that work pretty much like IRC. Outside the game, there's message boards for more permanent communication within the group and the coalition of groups. It doesn't have to be discussion about the game, but usually is. The 'physical' in-game interaction, of teaming up with other players to complete a given objective, triples the potential entertainment I could get out of playing the game alone.

Now, I'm not going to dump on the games themselves. There's usually plenty of stuff to do and sights to see (the landscapes in some MMOs are among the most beautiful I've seen, and some of them are just not reproduceable on Earth). But the real appeal of MMOs is community, IMO; if I wanted a single-player superhero game, Freedom Force is a better scripted, more interesting to play game that doesn't dink around so much with repetitive tasks.

I think I'm rambling quite a bit, but that's mostly my view on why they're fun. It's another aspect of the current trend of online interaction; some people just use a game for it, while others prefer message boards or instant messaging.

control-z

02-06-2008, 11:30 AM

It's an alternate life in a way. You can log in whenever you want and have adventures and explore a strange and interesting world. Your character gets more stuff and becomes more powerful, you can make in-game alliances and friendships, many of those friendships start off with real-life friends or become real-life friends.

I mostly like exploring, but off-line games like Oblivion have satisfied that desire.

Knowed Out

02-06-2008, 11:58 AM

Think of those things you have or want to get that make your life more buttkicking. Like a custom paint job for your car, snazzy clothes, powerful stereo speakers, remotes, multifunctional cell phones, huge widescreen flat panel HDTV, etc.

Now imagine that instead of buying those things, you get them by legally killing people and taking them. That's the appeal.

WordMan

02-06-2008, 12:05 PM

On the Onion's AV Page - link here (http://www.avclub.com/content/feature/the_knights_who_say_nerd_20_pop/3) - they describe those on-line sites thusly:

It goes by many names, but it's really just a digital substitute for socializing. But if you're lonely, shy, live in the sticks, or just don't know anyone, you'd probably be encouraged when your computer screen effectively announces: "You are connected to 243,502,001 friends through 1 friend(s)." These "friendships" would probably resemble normal interactions if the participants interacted in any way at all, but aside from Second Life (which actually gives people the rare opportunity to write each other sentences in real-time), it boils down to an exchange of images (usually from some drunken party), e-vites (to some drunken party), and the now-immortal words "Thanks for the add!" But whether you're an amateur child molester who wants to send your favorite links, or you just met a carbon-based life form on the street, you'll probably demand digital friendship—and now the only thing more annoying than someone who sniffs, "I won't give you my MySpace page," is someone who smugly announces, "I don't have a MySpace account."

Jayn_Newell

02-06-2008, 12:10 PM

So, if you'll excuse what I'm sure is a massive over-simplification, it's a hobby that you engage in with other people which gives you the vehicle by which to carry out friendships?
Pretty much. Hey, how else do you expect us geeks to find husbands?

Bosstone

02-06-2008, 12:13 PM

Pretty much. Hey, how else do you expect us geeks to find husbands?And yet the people I hang out with on CoH are all coupled up. :(

OneCentStamp

02-06-2008, 12:21 PM

Pretty much. Hey, how else do you expect us geeks to find husbands?Dang kids these days! Back in my day, geeks used to have to go to conventions to find spouses! :mad: ;)

02-06-2008, 12:23 PM

It allows people to interact with and make friends with people all over the world instead of just the folks in your neighborhood...and then kill them electronically in many fun and profitable ways.

This is one of those things that people either get (mostly because they play them) or they don't (generally because they either never have tried one, or tried on and weren't able to connect to anyone and so left immediately thinking the whole thing is nuts or boring...or both). It's like computer games in general. I've had people ask me why I play computer or even console games...isn't it just a waste of time? Isn't it boring? Aren't there better things to do (usually after urging me to watch Survivor or American Idol or some such non-sense).

You get it...or you don't.

Just my two cents worth (I've played WoW, DaoC, Everquest, UO and a couple more MMO's and am currently playing TR while waiting in hopeful anticipation for my inclusion in the WAR beta).

-XT

p.s. You have to BE a playah to BEAT the playah....

Vihaga

02-06-2008, 12:54 PM

Apparently, though, the point of video games now is to ... honestly, I'm not trying to be an asshole ... do everything one would normally do in real life (or could do if it weren't for those pesky laws about murder and mayhem), just do it while tied to a computer.

So, please, educate me.

I never really understood the appeal of video games at all until a few years ago, when my parents got me a PS2 on a whim. I started playing RPGs, and I really liked games with a fantasy plot I had to work for, but there were almost none of them that my husband could play together. We looked all over, and found nothing, and then decided to try out World of Warcraft. It combined the very best aspects of the RPGs I'd played (engrossing world, extensive plot, TONS of playtime) with the added bonus of adding other real players as an extra unknown. It lets me interact with types of people I would NEVER encounter on a normal basis (soldiers, teenagers, people in different countries), and the game itself is sufficiently complex to keep me entertained for a long time (I get really bored watching TV and most movies).

Bottom line: I like the storyline, like the people and I also really enjoy the complexities of mastering a game where all the characters you can play have tons of abilities rather than only a few. Also, playing against and with other people adds an extra element of competition and teamwork.

Does that help?

/edit: I don't think I'd have stuck with WoW if I had started playing it by myself rather than with my husband. The group play elements are what make the game really shine, in my opinion, and I probably would've gotten bored before discovering them if I hadn't started the game teaming up with him from level one onward.

FinnAgain

02-06-2008, 01:09 PM

Well... EVE Online isn't about doing anything I could do in real life. Nobody will give me a space borne battleship :(

It's about running a deep, strategically rich game which has a persistent universe, no sharding, excellent gameplay mechanics, a cool story, and some pretty neat graphics. It's like chess, but with lasers. It's a way I can meet up with people from all over the globe, discuss strategy and tactics, and go have a spaceship battle with another 150 folks.

It's also about being able to do that for free, as EVE is (to my knowledge) the only MMO where I can pay with in-game virtual currency to keep my subscription running.

Which isn't to say that single player games don't have their own appeal. It's fun to boot up Medieval Total War II: Kingdoms every now and again, just like it's fun to organize a gank fleet and go raiding enemy territory in EVE.

And, saaaaaaaay, Bosstone, what sort of SP's does your old EVE-O character have, and what were they spec'd in? You looking, by any chance, to get rid of it?

Mosier

02-06-2008, 01:10 PM

The appeal of video games to me is mostly about feeling accomplished for "beating" them. I'm not using the word "beating" lightly, though. I mean beating the SHIT out of them. I played games like civilization 2 and final fantasy tactics until I could smash through the hardest possible challenges with absolutely no problem, doing things the developers of the game never could have possibly intended to be done.

When WoW came out, it was just like a bigger version of those games. I played WoW to "beat it" in ways that the developers could never have predicted or intended. In the early part of the game's history, it was very possible to see further than the developers, to maximize some aspect of your character that the developers never really considered and crush the mechanics of the game that prevented you from getting "too" strong. A good example for abusive things my class (hunter) used to be able to do was to split groups of monsters that you were supposed to fight together, turning them into two (or more) different separate more easily managed battles. At one point you could also abuse the game mechanics to get a pet with higher armor than the best possible armor a Warrior could get. Some low level pets had inherent abilities that made them much, much better than pets are supposed to be (like having natural resistances to every type of magic, or dealing shadow damage instead of normal damage that gets reduced by armor), so if you trained those pets up from a low level you had a pet significantly stronger than the developers intended.

Over time, though, the developers found and beat almost every abusive thing hunters could do. Bosses that you used to be able to "kite" and kill without even being hit will now reset back to their original positions with full health if you try to kite them. Monsters are now impossible to split from most groups. All pets were standardized to one baseline, making the uberpet a thing of the past. That's when I stopped playing the game, because there was nothing really fun left to find and break.

By the way, does anyone remember the last big awesome thing a hunter accomplished? Plenty of us could solo Scholomance or Baron at level 60 with no problem, but before the mend pet mechanics changed a hunter was actually able to solo Azuregos. It took him several hours if IIRC. That guy was freaking incredible.

Miller

02-06-2008, 01:14 PM

Trying not to be judgmental or snarky, I truly just don't get it. Video games for me peaked with Tetris and Super Mario World, and were about killing time, hand-eye coordination, and developing certain reflexes. Apparently, though, the point of video games now is to ... honestly, I'm not trying to be an asshole ... do everything one would normally do in real life (or could do if it weren't for those pesky laws about murder and mayhem), just do it while tied to a computer.

So, please, educate me.

I wasn't aware that my inability to kill a dragon by shooting lightning bolts out of my hands was due to legislation. I'm going to write to my congressman immediately, to have this law overturned.

Speaking seriously, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking about. You mention two online computer games in the thread title, but your OP seems to be more about video games in general. What's odd is that you seem to be under the impression that video games rely less on reflexes and hand-and-eye coordination, when the fact is that, since the heydays of Super Mario Brothers and Tetris, twitch-intensive games have almost entirely dominated the gaming market. When the first Nintendo system came out, two of the biggest genres in computer gaming were adventure games, which were entirely story and character driven interactive fictions, and turn-based strategy, which were the electronic equivalent of a table-top board game. Both genres are now very much niche-oriented, having been edged out by generations of first person shooters, Mario-style platform jumpers, sports simulations, racing games, and real-time strategy. Most of these games are, as you said, about "killing time, hand-eye coordination, and developing certain reflexes." Very few of them have any recognizable connection to the real world, and those that do, reflect a segment of the real world that most people have neither the ability nor the inclination to visit in real life: storming the beaches of Normandy, for example, or illegal street racing through major metropolitan areas. Most, though, are out-and-out fantasies: fighting aliens, demons, zombies, or what-have-you. The appeal of these is the same as the appeal of any movie or book based on the same genre. If it's fun to watch Luke Skywalker blow up the Death Star, then it's not hard to figure out that it would also be fun to be Luke Skywalker, blowing up the Death Star.

There are a few games that are genuine real-world, mundane simulations. The Sims, for example, is an outrageously popular game that simulates buying a house, furnishing it, raising a family, and going to work. I have absolutely no idea what the appeal of this game is. I played it once, and found it to be the dullest thing I've ever seen passed off as entertainment. Second Life, which I've never played, is apparently similar to this, but at least includes a social aspect which I can understand.

World of Warcraft is a different kettle of fish entirely. It's high fantasy, for starters, with orcs, elves, dragons, wizards, etc. The appeal, on a narrative level, is that same as that of Lord of the Rings or any other fantasy novel/movie setting. The fantasy role-playing game has been a video game staple practically since the invention of the medium. The appeal of the massively multiplayer online RPG is that it brings back the social aspect that was the original draw of the table-top Dungeons and Dragons, the game that was the direct inspiration for virtually all computer RPGs. On top of that, the game itself is simply huge. I've been playing it regularly since its inception, and I still haven't seen all the original content. The gameplay itself is a combination of basic strategy with some degree of good timing and reflexes. Each character has dozens of different abilities, and figuring out the best combination of abilities to use against each particular foe, and triggering them fast enough to avoid being killed, is enjoyable in itself. It also keys off of the natural human tendency towards acquistiveness. There's a staggering amount of stuff to get in the game, and there's a definite sense of satisfaction when you get a shiny new magic broadsword, or learn a new way of blasting your enemies into tiny little bits.

Bosstone

02-06-2008, 01:29 PM

And, saaaaaaaay, Bosstone, what sort of SP's does your old EVE-O character have, and what were they spec'd in? You looking, by any chance, to get rid of it?I couldn't tell you off the top of my head, but I do know he has Cruiser 5, Mining 5, Gunnery 5, and I think a few other skills at 5. I was moving into the Tech 2 skills when I put the game down. I never went for PvP, so the combat skills are functional for NPC hunting from frigates to cruisers, and the character is damned good at mining, if I may say so. Cruiser 5 + Mining 5 + Osprey = Whole damn load of ore being moved. :D Also some refining skill.

Not sure I'm looking to pass the character along, though. That sort of practice is a bit unsettling to me, to be honest, mostly because I tend to associate with my characters even after I've stopped playing. I'd have no compunctions about turning over his fleet of ships and assorted goodies, though.

Vihaga

02-06-2008, 01:35 PM

Plenty of us could solo Scholomance or Baron at level 60 with no problem, but before the mend pet mechanics changed a hunter was actually able to solo Azuregos.

Heh.I never saw that one; was it part of the Hunter Versus World Series? A few months ago a video out of a warlock soloing Hydross- I forget how long it took her, but it was pretty neat.

Oh, the *size* of the community is also attractive to me (getting back to why we play). It's nice to get acquainted with my server's community and get to know who the "famous" and interesting guilds and characters are. This is especially useful for my husband and I, who sometimes end up working odd hours, preventing us from doing as much normal socialziing as we'd like.

Bosstone

02-06-2008, 01:38 PM

Oh, the *size* of the community is also attractive to me (getting back to why we play). It's nice to get acquainted with my server's community and get to know who the "famous" and interesting guilds and characters are. This is especially useful for my husband and I, who sometimes end up working odd hours, preventing us from doing as much normal socialziing as we'd like.I love that in an MMO community a player can attain a sort of legendary status. Back when I was playing Planetside, certain names would catch my eye and I'd do everything I could to kill them for bragging rights. :D Usually didn't work, but it was fun trying.

02-06-2008, 01:53 PM

It's also about being able to do that for free, as EVE is (to my knowledge) the only MMO where I can pay with in-game virtual currency to keep my subscription running.

Guild Wars has no subscription. You just have to buy the expansions when they come out if you want the new character classes and content. If you don't then you can play with just the original box set for free.

As an aside (hopefully not to much of a hijack), I've heard that Pirates of the Burning Sea is a lot like Eve Online...very similar kind of game (well, similar game play style I guess). Any of you Eve Online people thinking about giving it a try? I understand it's a thinking mans game...not for MMO noobies or the faint at heart.

-XT

Bosstone

02-06-2008, 01:54 PM

It's also about being able to do that for free, as EVE is (to my knowledge) the only MMO where I can pay with in-game virtual currency to keep my subscription running.Woah. I missed this until xtisme quoted it. Since when?

Lord Ashtar

02-06-2008, 01:55 PM

A few months ago a video out of a warlock soloing Hydross- I forget how long it took her, but it was pretty neat.
This I have to see.

control-z

02-06-2008, 02:06 PM

There are a few games that are genuine real-world, mundane simulations. The Sims, for example, is an outrageously popular game that simulates buying a house, furnishing it, raising a family, and going to work. I have absolutely no idea what the appeal of this game is. I played it once, and found it to be the dullest thing I've ever seen passed off as entertainment. Second Life, which I've never played, is apparently similar to this, but at least includes a social aspect which I can understand.

The Sims is more of a game for girls. If you're a guy, try luring a Sim into a room and delete the door. Then wait...

Or see if you can get 2 female Sims to start a relationship.

The game is a sandbox, you get out of it what you put into it.

Gary "Wombat" Robson

02-06-2008, 02:41 PM

Speaking solely of World of Warcraft here, I find that the appeal is different to everybody. For example:

To my son, it's all about the lore. It's almost like a book he can interact with. He knows all of the characters and their backstories. He'll spend hours trying to glitch his way into "forbidden" areas of the game, and he thoroughly enjoys exploring new areas in-game to see how well they jive with the lore. He's usually just as happy playing solo, but he's fine with grouping up for a quest now and then.

To my son-in-law, it's all about the interaction with others. His guild uses voice chat for everything, and they carefully fine-tune their strategies and tactics to work together flawlessly for the big battles. He wants to perform his role as well as possible, and his biggest kick is seeing himself in the #1 position on the damage meters after a raid. He's into the end-game (what you do after you hit level 70).

For me, I enjoy the challenge of solo play over my head. I actually play my maxed-out level 70 less than I play the lower-level characters. I like taking on multiple bad guys simultaneously that are higher level than me, just to see if I can do it. I like running quest chains that I'm barely high-enough level to do. Unlike the rigidly-structured team play my son-in-law goes for, I like the casual play with friends. Sometimes it's a group of us in the same room (LAN party) and sometimes we're scattered about. We all know each other in real life, and it's like having a poker party with friends: it's more about doing something with your friends than it is about the WoW (or poker, or whatever).

I've played a lot of videogames over the years (I bought one of the first standalone Pong consoles), and nothing has ever held my interest as long as WoW. I have characters at level 70, 50, 32, 20, and 13, and a bunch of little ones, and I've been playing for a year and a half. It's still fun.

On review, I'll add one more note: I don't see the allure of a game like Sims at all. In-game, I don't do the stuff I do in real life. I don't want to deal with a house or a job or a pet. I want to slay monsters, cast magic spells, and generally enjoy a fantasy world.

02-06-2008, 02:49 PM

When you get right down to it, any game is stupid if you don't understand why people enjoy it. Take any sport or game that humans play and if you aren't into it, if you don't know the rules or it just doesn't appeal, you are going to find it incomprehensible why people waste their time with it. I always have to keep this in mind when my in-laws what to watch NASCAR or when my dad puts on golf. My brother in law can't understand why I enjoy martial arts and paintball and my dad thinks all video games are a complete waste of time.

Different strokes and all that.

-XT

FinnAgain

02-06-2008, 02:56 PM

quick hijack, I promise, don't hit me!

I couldn't tell you off the top of my head, but I do know he has Cruiser 5, Mining 5, Gunnery 5, and I think a few other skills at 5.

Judging from that, actually, you probably got out a good few years ago? Mining barges came out.. I think, a bit over a year and a half ago, pretty much being the de facto choice for serious mining. Sad to say, but your character is probably under skilled for mining these days without being able to fly a Hulk with T2 strip miners.

[on topic aside] That's another thing that's neat about MMO's, there's real competition between various people's loot and skills, and with a game like EVE, getting new, shiny toys (and blowing up other people's) has some actual oomph to it. And hey, for any born pack rat, what's better than having an entire collection of spaceships? [/ota]

As for being able to pay for the game with ISK, I'm not sure when that started, but it's been going on for at least a year and a half, if I don't miss my guess. I just paid for both of my characters, for 90 days each, at 400 mil each. At that rate, with datacore harvesting, my salary from working at the Tribune and ratting, the game is not only totally self sufficient for me, I turn a decent profit.

Guild Wars has no subscription. You just have to buy the expansions when they come out if you want the new character classes and content. If you don't then you can play with just the original box set for free.

Well, damn, thanks for clearing up my ignorance. I do have to say, I like that idea of no fee at all for normal play. I also have to say, however... that it strikes me as slightly odd that you'd have to pay for new content and such. In EVE, as long as I've got the ISK flowing in for game timecodes, I can have access to all the new ships, graphics, etc... that come down the pipe. But yeah, I had no idea that there were other free MMO's, thanks!

As an aside (hopefully not to much of a hijack), I've heard that Pirates of the Burning Sea is a lot like Eve Online...very similar kind of game (well, similar game play style I guess). Any of you Eve Online people thinking about giving it a try? I understand it's a thinking mans game...not for MMO noobies or the faint at heart.

Actually, a good few people who I used to fly with in EVE have taken to playing Pirates, and they love it. Their main point of praise for the game, actually, is that it makes PvP pretty much a necessity. And while EVE doesn't have any actual 'safe space', there are numerous ways to totally avoid PvP if you've got a head on your shoulders. My buddies have tried to tempt me to play with them, but I'm somewhat monomaniacal when I get into a game.

KneadToKnow

02-06-2008, 03:00 PM

I'm getting excellent feedback to my original question, and I appreciate everyone's input!

So far, I'm suspecting that gaming is a hobby that will always escape my grasp, interest-wise. I think it's about my own poor social skills, my relative inability to be amused by new things simply for their own novelty, and my preference for writing my own fiction when I feel the need to explore a new and different reality. But I'm really enjoying the discussion and hope it continues for a while.

Just curious, if it's true that the only thing more annoying than someone who sniffs, "I won't give you my MySpace page," is someone who smugly announces, "I don't have a MySpace account."how does one un-smugly inform others of that fact? The simple fact of the matter is MySpace bores the living hell out of me and the way the backgrounds don't move when you scroll a page makes me slightly queasy.

02-06-2008, 03:05 PM

Well, damn, thanks for clearing up my ignorance. I do have to say, I like that idea of no fee at all for normal play. I also have to say, however... that it strikes me as slightly odd that you'd have to pay for new content and such. In EVE, as long as I've got the ISK flowing in for game timecodes, I can have access to all the new ships, graphics, etc... that come down the pipe. But yeah, I had no idea that there were other free MMO's, thanks!

No worries. It's actually not a bad game. Their marketing strategy is to basically sell you an 'expansion' every 6 months to a year for around the price you'd normally pay for a new stand alone game. You don't have to buy the expansions, but they usually throw in new dungeons, new character classes and races, new goodies, etc.

If you are ever interested in it you can pick up the early games for like $19.99 in the bargain bin at Best Buy...or even buy one of those multi-packs with several versions of the game bundled together. And it's free to play on line to your hearts content.

Actually, a good few people who I used to fly with in EVE have taken to playing Pirates, and they love it. Their main point of praise for the game, actually, is that it makes PvP pretty much a necessity. And while EVE doesn't have any actual 'safe space', there are numerous ways to totally avoid PvP if you've got a head on your shoulders. My buddies have tried to tempt me to play with them, but I'm somewhat monomaniacal when I get into a game.

I'm toying with the idea. It sounds like an incredible game. VERY advanced though with a huge learning curve. But very challenging...which I like. GameSpy gave it a 4 star review which is quite good for them...they only dinged it really on the difficulty of spinning up to speed in the early game. I'm still holding out for an invite to the WAR Beta at this point, but if it doesn't happen by early spring I may have to give it a whirl...

-XT

Drunky Smurf

02-06-2008, 03:08 PM

I played WoW for two years and am now playing Lord of the Rings Online.

For me it is the same as playing Super Mario brothers. It's fun and it kills time when I am bored. But it has that extra benefit of playing with friends like Street Fighter or any two player console game except you can play with more than one friend.

Some of the members of the guild I was in in WoW gets together and hangs out on weekends sometimes. I've been around a couple of these get togethers. Most people that show up live within a couple of hours of driving but some flew in on planes from across the US.

One guy, that did fly in, and I had a good conversation. I asked him why he would spend the money and time to come out here to hang out with the people and he said it was his vacation. He brought his wife and kids with him. While he was hanging out with us that afternoon his wife and kids were at the zoo. He said his life is pretty busy with his job and family and he is more of a home body and he would rather play WoW and make friends than go out to bars or sports games to make friends. Also he said by spending his down time at home on the computer he is readily available to his family unlike he would be if he were at a sports game.

Personally I love the lore of LOTRO and I am into it way more than I was with the lore of WoW. I think of it more as a book I am reading except with pictures and I can make decisions to affect the outcome of the book, sort of, but not really, but sort of. I am also a casual player. After a couple of hours I get bored of playing and wonder off so the idea of raiding a huge dungeon for a couple of hours is not appealing.

Jayn_Newell

02-06-2008, 03:15 PM

Well, damn, thanks for clearing up my ignorance. I do have to say, I like that idea of no fee at all for normal play. I also have to say, however... that it strikes me as slightly odd that you'd have to pay for new content and such.
Well, for GW, realise that all their revenue comes from sales of the game since there's no subscription. And it's not odd at all--expansion packs are common for MMOs. If you don't buy them, you don't get access to the new areas. That said, some games go at it both ways--WoW is continually adding new content, even though they've only released one expansion in over three years. But the expansion added a lot more areas to the game, among other things. That's one of the fun things about it--there's always something bigger to kill, and if there isn't, there will be soon (They're currently working on finishing up the last part of the expansion zones--sometime after that comes out we'll see another ex-pac)

Antinor01

02-06-2008, 03:15 PM

Personally I love the lore of LOTRO and I am into it way more than I was with the lore of WoW. I think of it more as a book I am reading except with pictures and I can make decisions to affect the outcome of the book, sort of, but not really, but sort of. I am also a casual player. After a couple of hours I get bored of playing and wonder off so the idea of raiding a huge dungeon for a couple of hours is not appealing.

My kinship leader and a few others were talking about a raid in the Rift that lasted going on 11 hours. I think they're all crazy. (But they're really helpful, give me great advice and gear so I overlook their insanities.)

Dangerosa

02-06-2008, 03:59 PM

I agree with the comment on that blog - its the new needlepoint. Engaging enough to veg to, mindless and repetitive.

The Hamster King

02-06-2008, 05:52 PM

NajaNivea

02-06-2008, 06:25 PM

I never really understood the appeal of video games at all until a few years ago...

/edit: I don't think I'd have stuck with WoW if I had started playing it by myself rather than with my husband. The group play elements are what make the game really shine, in my opinion, and I probably would've gotten bored before discovering them if I hadn't started the game teaming up with him from level one onward.
Hey, are you me?
I started playing WoW a few years back because my husband plays. He plays because his oldest friends play, and they all live scattered around the country. My husband is a real gamer who plays games for the sake of computer gaming. I just play casually, so I can only explain it from my perspective, which is pretty similar to a few others in the thread.
I like it for the social aspects, almost exclusively. Were it not for the time spent in game, we wouldn't be able to "hang out" with these long distance friends except brief visits every five or ten years. These boys don't write letters and think to call each other about as often as they buy plane tickets for visits, so for them (and now for me) the MMORPGs are ways to do something social together on a regular basis.
For me the game is fun but distantly secondary and if I wasn't playing with uber leet game nerds I'd have ditched it in boredom or frustration at about level 5.

The other thing about it that's really struck me is the art and craft behind it. Sure, you're just running around a virtual world killing virtual monsters, but every once in a while you find some gorgeous little detail, like a piece of trash that turns out to be a "steamy romance novel" with a page of scandalous cheesecake text ;) or... the vehicle my toon rides has about fifty little moving mechanical parts, a symphony of mechanical noises, and a little hula-girl on the dashboard. Someone spent a long time planning and executing that, and it's a nice detail. Some of the landscapes are truly stunning graphic art.
That kind of thing alone certainly wouldn't keep me spending hours in-game, but as a backdrop for palling around with long-distance buddies, it's entertaining.

Miller

02-06-2008, 06:30 PM

So far, I'm suspecting that gaming is a hobby that will always escape my grasp, interest-wise. I think it's about my own poor social skills, my relative inability to be amused by new things simply for their own novelty, and my preference for writing my own fiction when I feel the need to explore a new and different reality. But I'm really enjoying the discussion and hope it continues for a while.

You seem to be under the impression that games like World of Warcraft are the standard for the gaming industry. This is not the case. While massively multiplayer games can be highly lucrative, and are very popular, as a percentage of available video game titles they are vanishingly small. There are maybe a dozen or two viable online games currently operating, and most of them are several years old. In a given calender year, hundreds and hundreds of new video games are produced and released. The vast majority of these games will have a major single-player component, and a significant number of them will be single-player only. I consider myself to be a "hard core" gamer, yet my online gaming is almost entirely restricted to WoW, and even there, I spend most of my time soloing.

As for your preferred modes for exploring new and different realities, writing is a fine and admirable way of doing so. But you still read fiction and watch movies, do you not? When you come right down to it, video games are an amazingly flexible medium, able to communicate virtually any kind of narrative, athletic, or aesthetic experience imaginable. They bear resemblences to virtually every other art form conceived by man, and yet synthesize them in a way we've never seen before. I think they're the first truly new artform we've seen since the invention of the novel.

lizardling

02-06-2008, 07:32 PM

This is more apparent in Second Life. I've never tried it myself, but it's not even really a game. There's no real objectives, no combat system or anything like that. (Anyone who knows more can correct me if I'm wrong.) It's really just one enormous graphical chat room where people can get together and do things unencumbered by geographical limitations. So are the other online games; it's just that WoW and CoH provide things for you to do, whereas with Second Life you've got to come up with your own entertainment.

Er, beg to differ slightly. For some people, it IS like that -- a giant chat room.

For others, you can craft things in Second Life. It's got its own scripting language, plus a whole system of building blocks (known as 'prims') so you can do things like create fireworks, build your own Helm's Deep / Zen monastery / giant house where you feel like you're on the set of 'Honey I Shrunk the Kids' / Japantown / Kingdom Hearts / aerodome / cathedral / etc.

You can craft clothes, cars, accessories, houses, sculptures, and hock them to the suckers that drift along. :D There have been some frankly aweinspiring examples of prim art.

I fall more into the category of building cool things just because I can. Unfortunately, there aren't as many of the old school creative free spirits these days, so I've gotten to where I only log in once in a while since many people I knew have vanished. :( It's harder to find new friends to have spontaneous craziness with such as boarding a flying ship to see what the world looks like from up above, for example.

Anyway, SL is what you make of it. GIGO, etc.

Bosstone

02-06-2008, 07:33 PM

Judging from that, actually, you probably got out a good few years ago? Mining barges came out.. I think, a bit over a year and a half ago, pretty much being the de facto choice for serious mining. Sad to say, but your character is probably under skilled for mining these days without being able to fly a Hulk with T2 strip miners.Not really. Mining Barges were most certainly in the game when I left. I just wasn't a power player, and I stuck to 0.8+ space except when doing trading runs. Believe me, I worked out the math, and concluded that a barge just wasn't going to do me much good in that case. Were I part of a corporation that did organized mining in 0.0 space, a barge would probably be a necessity, but an Osprey kitted out with good mining lasers pulled in enough ore in one night to finance my ventures. 2 million ISK isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but when you stick to Frigates and Destroyers, it actually goes a very long way. :)

I had a lot more skills pushed up to 4 and 5, but EVE's website doesn't allow you to access game specific details unless you have an active account, and I don't care to pony up $15 just to look at my character's details. Those are the primary skills I got use out of and can remember off the top of my head.

ETA: I can access my account details, and I deactivated the account June '07. So there you go.

even sven

02-07-2008, 12:30 AM

I second "everyone is different." I love WoW, but the last thing I want to do is sit around chatting in the game.

For me, I enjoy exploration. I like seeing new corners of the game, finding out how new powers work, and getting new stuff. Now, I know this isn't real stuff, but to me, it's interesting to see how this stuff works in the context of the game.

For my friend, it's all about numbers. Everything in a game has numbers- you, enemies, even the landscape. He likes to figure out those numbers and how to use them to his advantage. It's a big pretty math problem.

When the first movies came out, they were displayed to show off the projector, not the movie. It took years to realize that what was actually being projected was interesting. It took even more years to realize you could use this to tell a story. To get to the point that movies are now- full fledged art forms that are capable of affecting people on a mass scale- too decades of tiny steps and changes in the way people think.

And I think this is happening now with video games. I, for one, enjoy seeing how things are progressing.

Dragonblink

02-07-2008, 12:34 AM

With WoW, I hang out on a regular basis with a couple dozen people from a bunch of different countries. Our guild includes members in Australia, Argentina, and a bunch from Mexico. Even if I could afford to get all those people here to LA, could I fit them all into the living room to play games? Instead we have The Magic Of The Internets, allowing all of us to play together in small groups (and, twice a week, one big group) and just to chat.

Sometimes I have WoW open as a kind of over-graphicy chat client, it's true. But most of the time I'm playing, or trying out new skills and techniques, or working on improving stuff, or fighting through dungeons of varying levels of difficulty (and with random rewards). We use voice chat, so we can have a good conversation while we're pewpewing elves or whatever. I'm too physically fragile to regularly play real-life team sports; instead, I play online team games. It's fun; we're constantly challenging ourselves to try to accomplish harder and harder goals in the game, and a lot of us have become great friends. Plus I've learned a lot about life in other countries.

And I've learned a few Spanish vocabulary words, but they're not for polite company.

Angel of the Lord

02-07-2008, 08:34 AM

I play Second Life. A lot. Specifically, though, I play a MMORPG *within* Second Life called "The City of Lost Angel's" (sic, and, yes, it drives me nuts, too). That game has its own Second Life-based combat system, its own backstory, its own universe. . .it's like WoW, except much, much, much smaller. And it's based in the future rather than the past. And the emphasis is on RP, not combat or levels.

And, really, for me the size of the thing is part of the appeal. Within that game, everyone knows each other, or is at least familiar with each other. It's a small, fairly tight-knit community.

There are also people who like the opportuinity to be someone or something they can't be IRL. There are people who like to sit in clubs and chat and dance. There are people who just like to create stuff (and, really, creating things ISL is both really simple and frustratingly difficult). Most of these people, I don't really get, 'cause I've never seen the point of endless socializing.

But. . .imagine being able to club in your underwear. Or something. It's life and socialization for lazy people. Whoopdee-shit, you know?

But for those who RP. . .SL (and CoLA (http://cityoflostangels.biz) ) is free. WoW and other, similar games are not.