Tree falls in the woods:

[Cabyland]

I usually answer by saying, "Wether it is heard or not, there is a displacement of air."

[Musicat]

Welcome to the Straight Dope, Cabyland! It's customary to give a link to the article in question like If a tree falls in the woods.... (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_236.html) That way, we don't have to guess what you're talking about.

[SiXSwordS]

In this case, knowing the context has a HUGE impact on the way your response can be taken.

[tim314]

One can also answer that until it is observed the tree remains in a quantum superposition of fallen and not-fallen states, and thus the answer is indeterminate.

If one wants to be obnoxious, I mean.

[Elendil's Heir]

What, it's Schrodinger's Tree now? If it falls, it makes noise, as every tree to fall since the dawn of time has done. Whether or not someone is there to hear it is irrelevant. Timberrrrrrrrrr!

[rayh]

'One of the recurring philosophical questions is:
"Does a falling tree in the forest make a sound when there is no one to hear?" Which says something about the nature of philosophers, because there is always someone in a forest. It may only be a badger, wondering what that cracking noise was, or a squirrel a bit puzzled by all the scenery going upwards, but someone.' - Terry Pratchett.

[Allston]

Pratchett is half-right. What constitutes an observer anyways?

But you can postulate scenarios where there are no observers without brains with which to observe. Say a dead tree in the middle of the great Erg, with no life within a hundred miles.

According to strict Quantum Physics, no the tree cannot even be said to have fallen, without someone to have observed it.

[Allston]

Pratchett is half-right. What constitutes an observer anyways?

But you can postulate scenarios where there are no observers without brains with which to observe. Say a dead tree in the middle of the great Erg, with no life within a hundred miles.

According to strict Quantum Physics, no the tree cannot even be said to have fallen, without someone to have observed it.

With brains, that is.

[Work on editing skills! :smack: ]

[BrainFireBob]

It interacts with the environment directly, meaning it is observed.

The answer, semantically, would seem to me to be an unqualified yes. It *makes* a sound, although that sound may not *become* sound until heard.

Now, if the question was "If a tree falls in the forest and there is nothing to hear, is there a sound," then it would be ambivalent. One's made, because nothing distinguishes the two situations from the "maker" perspective between heard and not-heard. They are therefore identical.

[Clothahump]

Of course there's a sound.

When a tree falls in the woods, every treehugger screams in sympathy.



:D

[Saga]

My political party (green) certainly does....every single time they cut one down and don't replace it :rolleyes:

[Tapioca Dextrin]

What if a tree falls in a forest and the only observers are a passing group of philosophers?

[ElliottWilson]

It seems to me that this discussion is largely academic. The dictionary defines “sound” as both transmitted vibrations, and the sensation of hearing. To say that the sound of the falling tree can only be defined by one of these definitions is tantamount to saying the Sun doesn’t shine, because it isn’t “a person distinguished in an activity or a field”.

The tree clearly makes a sound by one definition, and by two definitions if it is heard.

[Khampelf]

It does boil down to semantics, most things do.

The answer I'd been satisfied with, until now, was that the unobserved tree makes a sound, but not a noise.

But what if an unobserved tree falls in a vacuum?









Onto a treadmill.

**Ducks and Runs. Far, Far Away.**

[kambuckta]

But what if an unobserved tree falls in a vacuum?




Onto a treadmill.



And then plummets down to the bottom of the Marianas Trench.....for 20 minutes or so.

:D

[essell]

It does boil down to semantics, most things do.
I think the framers of the original question knew that, but it's migrated cultures and now people are demanding an answer to question that's not meant to have one.

[Bryan Ekers]

It makes the same sound as one hand clapping.


Don't get it? Then you haven't mastered zen.

[Contrapuntal]

It makes the same sound as one hand clapping.


Don't get it? Then you haven't mastered zen.Or your domain.

[j666]

What if a tree falls in a forest and the only observers are a passing group of philosophers?
We can only hope the tree falls on them.

[Bookkeeper]

And a more important question - If a man is standing in the middle of a forest and he opens his mouth to speak and there is no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?

[j666]

Yes.

[Annie-Xmas]

One line that could not get by the Saturday Night Live censors: If Helen Keller falls when alone in the woods, does she make a sound? :D

[SiXSwordS]

It makes the same sound as one hand clapping.
Don't get it? Then you haven't mastered zen.
No, it doesn't. (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_049.html)

One's mastery, understanding, enlightenment or any other descriptor applicable to zen has nothing to do with it.

Don't get that? Why is a mouse when it spins?

[John W. Kennedy]

Higher and fewer!

[SiXSwordS]

Higher and fewer!
Did you perhaps mean that for the thread about hash brownies?

[ElliottWilson]

I don’t buy the "makes a sound, but not a noise" explanation. One of the definitions of noise is “sound, or a sound of any kind”. So if noise is sound, and sound is transmitted vibrations, then the falling tree makes a noise too. It’s just more word games.

Now, the tree falling in a vacuum is different. If it falls over and crashes onto the space platform you’ve been growing it on, and you are watching from your shuttle, then no, it probably wouldn’t. But if you were docked to your space platform, you might wonder what that loud noise was.

On the other hand, if your tree strikes the side of that giant bell jar you‘re keeping in the back yard, then yes it probably would make a sound. It would probably sound a lot like my cat scratching on the back door when he’s ready to come in. You know, that nails on a chalkboard sound. I just love that cat.

[Jragon]

I don’t buy the "makes a sound, but not a noise" explanation. One of the definitions of noise is “sound, or a sound of any kind”. So if noise is sound, and sound is transmitted vibrations, then the falling tree makes a noise too. It’s just more word games.

Now, the tree falling in a vacuum is different. If it falls over and crashes onto the space platform you’ve been growing it on, and you are watching from your shuttle, then no, it probably wouldn’t. But if you were docked to your space platform, you might wonder what that loud noise was.

On the other hand, if your tree strikes the side of that giant bell jar you‘re keeping in the back yard, then yes it probably would make a sound. It would probably sound a lot like my cat scratching on the back door when he’s ready to come in. You know, that nails on a chalkboard sound. I just love that cat.

In regard to the vaccum -
But doesn't sound just need A medium to travel through (not just air)? If it hit the ground it would probably make it vibrate at least slightly, and I'm sure with the proper instrument (a really sensitive seismograph? A recorder that's sensitive put to the ground? I don't know) or maybe even putting your ear to the ground near it, you could possibly hear it. To be honest even if it hit something that somehow didn't vibrate at ALL the tree probably still would vibrate and make a sound interally.

That or I'm way off-base here.

[mwbrooks]

And then plummets down to the bottom of the Marianas Trench.....for 20 minutes or so.

:D

Sorry, I can be a bit slow sometimes. Are you making a pun on the nautical verb "sound" (to ascertain the depth of water)?

[Inner Stickler]

It's an old doper joke about visiting the Marianas Trench in the 60's for 20 minutes. It usually is brought up at some point when a thread becomes silly.

[Inner Stickler]

Link. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=283407&highlight=marianas+trench)

[mwbrooks]

Link. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=283407&highlight=marianas+trench)

Ah. Remind me not to submit random factoids for no reason. You guys are like piranhas.

Pity. I would've liked the pun. If a Piccard sinks 35 thousand feet, does he make a sonde?