Champions Online MMORPG in the works

[Saltire]

Microsoft and Marvel have dropped out of their partnership with Cryptic Studios to create Marvel Universe Online. Cryptic has announced that they're taking the code written for that project and repurposing it into a Champions MMO.

Gamespot article (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/championsonline/news.html?sid=6186008&om_act=convert&om_clk=newlyadded&tag=newlyadded;title;1)

Champions, for those not familiar, is a pen and paper roleplaying game with a long history and one of the most-flexible character creation systems ever devised. It's also notoriously hard to balance one character's power against another.

My prediction--The game will have more customizations than any other MMORPG, but will only superficially resemble the Hero System of Champions.

[AndrewL]

Is there, in fact, any indication whatsoever that this game will be in any way connected to the Champions RPG?

[D_Odds]

Will you need a Masters Degree in Advanced Mathematics to make a character? Half the fun of Champions was finding every d6 in a 2 mile radius to roll for damage.

I can see it using the Champions universe: Primus, UNTIL, Foxbat, Dr. Destroyer, et al. But in the end it will still have the typical rock/paper/scissors aspect of MMORPGs with all the familiar classes. It would work much better in a Neverwinter Nights-style persistent worlds scenario versus a MMORPG.

[OneCentStamp]

Dude, Champions was awesome. It badly exposed Marvel Super Heroes for the poorly designed kiddie game it was.

I hope this MMORPG sucks, or isn't really connected closely to Champions, because I'd hate to start playing MMORPGs this late in life. :p

[Saltire]

editing to add: this is a reply to AndrewL.
Over at the Hero Games site (www.herogames.com) they've posted that they're announcing something major on the 18th. That should tell us for sure, though what I've read about Cryptic's statements seem pretty clear.

City of Heroes, originally created by Cryptic, is full of characters based on the developers' own Champions characters. Statesman, Paragon City's version of Superman, was a Champ char for Jack Emmert, the creative director of Cryptic. So we know they're fans.

[D_Odds]

OneCent, the Marvel RPG was a latecomer into the superhero RPG genre. Champions, Villians & Vigilantes, GURPS, and a few others all preceded it and the DC RPG (which was better and worse at the same time).

I loved Champions. Was my favorite RPG. Loved taking very simple characters and breathing life into them while my min/max-er brethren found all of their limitations exploited.

[Quartz]

Bleeding heck! Is the Hero System still going? I used to be deep into it and active on the mailing list. I was primarily a Fantasy Hero guy. But really, despite the flexibility, it was too much work. That said, thse days d20 PCs rival it.

[Sage Rat]

I've not played Champions, but one of CoH's big issues was that depending on your build you could be anywhere from permanently wimpy to uber-buffed out. If this game is even more customizable, that's going to have some major balancing wars with the players.

[Lute Skywatcher]

City of Heroes, originally created by Cryptic, is full of characters based on the developers' own Champions characters. Statesman, Paragon City's version of Superman, was a Champ char for Jack Emmert, the creative director of Cryptic. So we know they're fans.And City of Heroes was originally supposed to use the Champions system.

[Lightnin']

I'm a little dubious about the concept of a Champions MMORPG, personally. The Champions universe was, frankly, never that interesting to me, so I don't know how it would work as the background of an online game. The rules themselves are pretty complex and open to abuse... and I don't know how well they'd work on a computer, anyway.

However, if all they use is the concept of advantages and limitations on powers, and character disadvantages, it might work- I've always felt those were the best contributions Champions made to the RPG genre.

[CandidGamera]

Bleeding heck! Is the Hero System still going? I used to be deep into it and active on the mailing list. I was primarily a Fantasy Hero guy. But really, despite the flexibility, it was too much work. That said, thse days d20 PCs rival it.

It is. www.herogames.com

[Lightray]

Will you need a Masters Degree in Advanced Mathematics to make a character? Half the fun of Champions was finding every d6 in a 2 mile radius to roll for damage.
Seriously, now, you make that joke here? Since when do we consider "Advanced Mathmatics" to involve only addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division? Or is it that there are -- oooh, scary -- fractions involved?

Calculators solved those problems even for the brain-dead few who couldn't figure out how to figure out 30 x 1.25 -- and since this will actually be played on a computer, I suspect you probably won't have to fear the math that a 5th grader could solve.

And since the customizability of Champions/Hero is far more well-known than the Chapions Universe, I'd bet that'll be the main feature of the MMORPG. They already have a pretty good engine for character creation in the Hero Designer program.

Personally, I'm pulling for the Hero guys. Even though I have no interest in a MMORPG, I'd like to see them do well.

[D_Odds]

Seriously, now, you make that joke here? Since when do we consider "Advanced Mathmatics" to involve only addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division? Or is it that there are -- oooh, scary -- fractions involved?

Calculators solved those problems even for the brain-dead few who couldn't figure out how to figure out 30 x 1.25 -- and since this will actually be played on a computer, I suspect you probably won't have to fear the math that a 5th grader could solve.

And since the customizability of Champions/Hero is far more well-known than the Chapions Universe, I'd bet that'll be the main feature of the MMORPG. They already have a pretty good engine for character creation in the Hero Designer program.

Personally, I'm pulling for the Hero guys. Even though I have no interest in a MMORPG, I'd like to see them do well.Yes, I do make the joke here. As I said, half the fun was gathering up enough d6 to cause a seismic shift when rolled; the other half was trying to figure out how to build a kryptonian on 250 points.

If this goes MMORPG, it will be gutted. You'll see none of that fun character sheet that my friends and I pored over long before we could employ computers to figure out just how fast we could fly (or how many points that last 1/4 disadvantage would save us). Actually, technically, we could have used computers, but how many people had computers with any type of spreadsheet in 1983? We didn't.

I would say Champions/Hero is about as well-known as the Champions Universe (not at all outside a very, very small number of fans), and the ability to support a MMORPG on either audience, or the sum of both, alone, is impossible. They'll need to give players who have no clue of Champions an easy way to access the game, and familiar archetypes. I stand by my statement - the only way any of the complexity of the game can be preserved would be if Cryptic went for a Neverwinter Nights-type business model.

[Just Some Guy]

Hmm... Well I think we can be reasonably sure that Cryptic can make a playable superhero online RPG since they're on the very short list of people who have done superheroes games well. I am just dubious that Champions is really something that will translate well to an MMORPG. As already noted the system is notorious for its powergaming potential and it is fairly complicated. If a game is going to be "Champions" it cannot abandon the concept of building anything. Selecting a preset group of powers from a list or implementing a class system would go completely against the spirit of the pen and paper game but those shortcuts are almost necessary for game balance and player absorption in an online RPG.

[Little Plastic Ninja]

You know, the question strikes me: why CAN'T it be as complicated as Champions? We're dealing with computers, for the love of Pete, and while the programming for "can only fly in daylight" / "uncontrollable use of power on random chance" / etc will be trickier than "power does x damage to target", what are the major problems?

The ones I can see are:

- Balance. It's going to be very, very easy to make a completely useless character. In City of Heroes it's just easy to make someone who is only useful in a team.

- Losing the user. In a world where your major competition is a game where you start out by choosing 'warrior' or 'mage' and you don't even have to pick your spells, you don't want people taking one look at chargen and saying "I'd rather do my taxes." AD&D was based on actuarial tables, if I remember correctly, and Champions's chargen is pretty cruel.

- Not making it a programming nightmare. For example, let's say I want to make a fireball thrower. That's it, that's all she does, but she can throw her fireballs in various shapes and sizes and they stay for various amounts of time. The programming for this does not just involve "create fireball centered here" -- if the thrower can dynamically determine size and shape, how's she going to do that on the fly? More importantly, how is the computer going to handle it, and how are the programmers going to make an engine that doesn't squash normal home computers or drive their QA team to suicide?

Frankly, the solution I see is pretty close to being City of Heroes, and looking at it from the perspective of "let's uber-simplify Champions" I can see how they created the engine. Find the main archetypes of characters people play (the one who heals or buffs, the one who socials at people, the one who shoots from far away and is made of kleenex, the one who does crazy damage from up close, and the one who can't be killed if you drop 16 tons on him). Give them something useful and something to back it up. Let them tweak it personally from there.

There's my concern, then: how is Cryptic going to create a Champions MMORPG significantly different from what they already have on the market? How are they going to get more marketshare (cynical answer: have some marketing. That would be nice) without stealing it from themselves?

[Balance]

- Balance. It's going to be very, very easy to make a completely useless character. In City of Heroes it's just easy to make someone who is only useful in a team.
This is, in fact, why they abandoned a Champions-like model for City. They tried it early on, and discovered that it was far too easy to make completely unplayable characters, and that everyone who knew the powers well enough to avoid that gravitated toward a single, maximized build. So everyone was either gimped or cookie-cutter. Not fun. They created the archetypes (classes) because they couldn't see any other way out of it.

- Not making it a programming nightmare. For example, let's say I want to make a fireball thrower. That's it, that's all she does, but she can throw her fireballs in various shapes and sizes and they stay for various amounts of time. The programming for this does not just involve "create fireball centered here" -- if the thrower can dynamically determine size and shape, how's she going to do that on the fly? More importantly, how is the computer going to handle it, and how are the programmers going to make an engine that doesn't squash normal home computers or drive their QA team to suicide?
I could actually see a fairly simple UI approach to controlling the size of AoE attacks like fireballs. It would work the same way that shape tools work in graphics editors--click, drag, and release to define a circular target area. The parameters of the power would limit the max size of the area. There's not much point in doing it, though, since the optimum size will almost always be "nuke from orbit". (Unless they make friendly fire damage players/friendly NPCs, which is a recipe for failure, especially in a fast-paced game.)

There's my concern, then: how is Cryptic going to create a Champions MMORPG significantly different from what they already have on the market? How are they going to get more marketshare (cynical answer: have some marketing. That would be nice) without stealing it from themselves?
I'm wondering that myself. It's a fairly small niche, and now that NCSoft owns City outright, they're making noises about pushing it harder. There have been hints of new games in the franchise in the works. Cryptic has limited funds for any kind of major promotional effort. Personally, I figured the Marvel MMO was doomed from the start, even with backing from Microsoft. I don't know how much better it will do as Champions.

You can't even really say they have the advantage of experience, since nearly all of the staff involved with the City games moved to NCSoft along with the franchise. About all that's left at Cryptic is Jack Emmert, and the general consensus seems to be that City has been better off since he handed over the reins to Miller.

[Just Some Guy]

There's another major reason for classes instead of point builds in an online RPG: playability.

Around a table top players can make whatever they want and the GM can adjust on the fly. The GM can tailor the game to challenge the players, cover the holes in the line up, and set the game for how players want to play. A computer can't do that so classes give players clearly defined roles. Get one of every class and you presumably have a fairly balanced team.

There's also a very serious issue of player progression, the meat and potatoes of online RPG's. They depend on the players being hooked into getting one more beanie to progress. Classes offer an easy solution to that: the next level. Point build adds a layer of complexity to it and an incredibly flexible point build like Champions is even worse. A few more build points with an open field for applying them would be problematic.

Which isn't to say that these issues are insurmountable. In fact I can see many possible paths for a more flexible system now that the way has been paved by City of Heroes. But I think to make it Champions is a rough trail.

[Lightray]

They could very easily streamline the Hero System by cutting back to using only Sidekick rules, and then relying on pre-statted packages -- such as the UNTIL Superowers Databse books and Ultimate books stat out.

At that point, instead of near-infinite combinations of powers, advantages, and disadvantages available, you've got a manageable menu of choices for players to select from.

You could set up the experience system so the player selects which power, skill, or whatever to spend the experience on, each is upgraded in a predetermined manner (e.g., 5 experience spent on an attack always increases it by +1 DC, and you can only spend multiples of 5 experience on 'em).

Limiting choices in this way should reign in much of the potential for abuse or confusion, but still leave it looking like Champions.

[Lute Skywatcher]

..

[Lute Skywatcher]

Official Website (http://www.champions-online.com/)

[Dangerosa]

My biggest issue is that I didn't like Jack Emmertt telling me how "his" game should be played. I don't think I'm really onboard to play another game where he is right and everyone who plays his game are a bunch of whiners.

(Yeah, I still don't like enhancement diversification....)

[D_Odds]

Reading the articles, I wonder how much that customization will be beaten down in alpha testing. One lesson he didn't learn from CoH was that no one wants to be gimped, BUT they want to play their vision. Players will make a character based on a vision, then they will complain that it doesn't stack up to the number crunchers' builds.

Me, I want to recreate my 12 speed Flash rip-off, with his two measly attacks - a 5d6 double penetrating HtH attack (take that hardened defenses!), and a 5d6 single penetrating ranged attack. And yes, he could run up walls and on water (but I couldn't pass through solid objects - not enough points). I used the least active points of the group, yet had the most effective character (probably because I was always in a different zip code whenever it was the villians turn to act).

(P.S. I actually like ED, but I'm weird like that)

[Pleonast]

I'll definitely follow along the Champions Online development. The more customization, the better. It's what kept me playing CoH so long. What drove me away was the repetitive gameplay.

For balance, their best bet is to make the character's power have no effect on the perceived difficulty or progress rate. Scale the missions to match the effectiveness of a character. Basically, a smarter version of the mission scaling CoH has.

The other thing to do is make altering your character's abilities (and appearance and everything else) easy to do. Players are very forgiving of perceived imbalances if they have a way to fix it themselves (by tweaking or outright re-doing their own abilities).

When I played Champions PNP, I tended to make characters with serviceable abilities with a some over-the-top powers that only worked in limited circumstances. So, characters like a werewolf who was an average melee grunt who became nigh-unstoppable when in moonlight, the stronger the better. Or, a witch who was a typical flying blaster with a few really disabling hexes (which happened to completely fail in the presence of music). Gave me something to do all the time, yet gave me moments of really being "the best". And easy for the gamemaster to control the flow with. If I can make characters like that in Champs Online, I will be hooked for a good while.

ED: never bothered me much, but I didn't play as much once they put it in.

[CandidGamera]

My biggest issue is that I didn't like Jack Emmertt telling me how "his" game should be played. I don't think I'm really onboard to play another game where he is right and everyone who plays his game are a bunch of whiners.

(Yeah, I still don't like enhancement diversification....)

I'm with you. Jack's "vision" isn't fun or heroic. It's tedious.

[Lobohan]

My biggest issue is that I didn't like Jack Emmertt telling me how "his" game should be played. I don't think I'm really onboard to play another game where he is right and everyone who plays his game are a bunch of whiners.

(Yeah, I still don't like enhancement diversification....)

ED is necessary for the game. It has to be playable for everyone, even those that don't six slot their attack for damage or pile enough recharge reducers into haste so it's always on. Invention Origin enhancements couldn't exist without diversification.

On topic:

I'm stoked about the system. Obviously it isn't going to be the Hero system cp for cp, but if they can keep most of the feel, and the flexibility of it I'm in. One of my biggest problems with CoX is that all energy blasts look the same. They all have the same colors and animations. They all fly from the hands. If we can tailor the exact toon we want it's a big win. Not to mention putting auto fire, area effect, nnd or invisible power effects on your power is just cool.

Also, I will defeat foxbat! I swear this!

[D_Odds]

I'm still wary of how mass 'customization', not of costumes and power effects, but of actual character build, will be gutted once this game hits a large audience who haven't necessarily played Champions and do not know how to work the system. I would love the power customization that Champions offers, but the businessman in me sees that as a losing proposition. Champions is a min/maxer paradise; a GM can minimize the impact (and punish notorious min/maxers) in a small group. I don't know how one does the same in a MMORPG. It's a good dream, but I don't think they can pull it off. (Why yes, I am a pessimist. How did you know?)

ETA: No one defeats Foxbat! Not Dr. Destroyer, not Mechanon, not Eurostar. Not UNTIL, not Primus. No one!

Except a 5 year old with a banana.

[Dangerosa]

ED is necessary for the game. It has to be playable for everyone, even those that don't six slot their attack for damage or pile enough recharge reducers into haste so it's always on. Invention Origin enhancements couldn't exist without diversification.


I disagree. I think it was playable by everyone before ED - you just had more choice about what you wanted to be. Want to six slot damage - that was fine. Its MY character, I really should be able to gimp her any way I want.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Want to six slot damage - that was fine.Except it was an exploit of a game mechanic, which had to be adjusted to make way for IOs and other stuff.

Those who bothered to RTFM would have noticed ED is what was intended all along.

[Lobohan]

I disagree. I think it was playable by everyone before ED - you just had more choice about what you wanted to be. Want to six slot damage - that was fine. Its MY character, I really should be able to gimp her any way I want.

You aren't seeing it right. If you uber your character out the wazoo his damage gets very high. The developers want the game to be a challenge for everyone. Against baseline monsters you don't have a challenge, you waltz through. More and more people start 6 slotting damages. The devs to keep the level of challenge constant have to raise resistance levels for monsters. Now people who aren't six slotting can't compete. You have to six slot or you can't advance. It's a problem they fixed with ED.

You wanting an easy walk through the levels could ruin the game for everyone. So their solution was the only logical one.

The same thing happened in a Gurps super hero game I was running. One character had a blast that was only 4d (the agreed upon limit) but it lasted for three rounds and divided armor by 10 and was simply very powerful. The result was that any villian that could stand up to him even for a single shot would be invulnerable to the other PCs. It's an unsustainable situation. I had to ask him to modify his character, which is pretty much what CoH did.

[Lobohan]

I'm still wary of how mass 'customization', not of costumes and power effects, but of actual character build, will be gutted once this game hits a large audience who haven't necessarily played Champions and do not know how to work the system. I would love the power customization that Champions offers, but the businessman in me sees that as a losing proposition. Champions is a min/maxer paradise; a GM can minimize the impact (and punish notorious min/maxers) in a small group. I don't know how one does the same in a MMORPG. It's a good dream, but I don't think they can pull it off. (Why yes, I am a pessimist. How did you know?)

ETA: No one defeats Foxbat! Not Dr. Destroyer, not Mechanon, not Eurostar. Not UNTIL, not Primus. No one!

Except a 5 year old with a banana.

Years ago I had the team against Foxbat and he actually had almost all of them out when the brick picked up a gasoline truck and slammed it at him. It didn't look like he could dive for cover to get out of the way, so I had him entangle himself with his pingpong gun for the extra armor it would provide.

Ah the good old days.

[D_Odds]

Those who bothered to RTFM would have noticed ED is what was intended all along.You aren't seeing it right. These are the kinds of attitudes that turn me off to every gaming forum. It is why I'll mostly only visit Dev Trackers, and maybe, occasionally, visit character guides.

I RTFM. The developers expected players not to single slot powers en masse. They gave the MMORPG player base too much credit. Players determined the maximized builds, and flocked to them. (Of course, many players of single archetypes then always complained how every other archetype was better - blasters are better than scrappers, scrappers are better than tanks, tanks are better than controllers, controllers are better than defenders, defenders are better than blasters - it is laughable). When there was no incentive to slot powers with different enhancements, no one did, so they Cryptic made an incentive. Forced ED was not intended all along - it was the consequence of not realizing just how shallow the MMORPG playing base really is. I will agree with Lobohan - by giving too much credit to the player base, Cryptic backed themselves into a corner in creating challenges, especially for build that are not DPS-based. I won't say it was the 'only logical' solution, but it did force players into doing what Cryptic expected them to do from the start.

Moral of the story to Champions developers: Don't overestimate your player base. And don't worry about underestimating your player base - it's impossible.

[Lobohan]

These are the kinds of attitudes that turn me off to every gaming forum. It is why I'll mostly only visit Dev Trackers, and maybe, occasionally, visit character guides.

I wasn't trying to cop an attitude. I just thought that Dangerosa wasn't looking beyond his/her own character's build. It's obvious that ED was necessary and to think otherwise shows someone isn't looking at the big picture. If I offended your sensibilities, so sorry.

[Lobohan]

I wasn't trying to cop an attitude. I just thought that Dangerosa wasn't looking beyond his/her own character's build. It's obvious that ED was necessary and to think otherwise shows someone isn't looking at the big picture. If I offended your sensibilities, so sorry.

I was gonna ad an In My Opinion to the end of that, forgot. :D

[Lute Skywatcher]

Forced ED was not intended all alongWhich is not at all what I was saying.

The manual suggested players diversify their enhancements. They didn't, so ED was forced on everyone.

[E-Sabbath]

I think... I think Jack's learned. Let's see how things go.

[D_Odds]

Which is not at all what I was saying.

The manual suggested players diversify their enhancements. They didn't, so ED was forced on everyone.
Which is what I said. Cryptic expected people to play one way, and didn't account for the style that developed. But it is dismissive to say RTFM (and there is no way not to say that dismissively) when the manual only suggests a style of play (diversifying enhancements). Anyone who has played any RPGs know anything that isn't expressly forbidden or actively discouraged is fair game. It was clearly a case of not knowing the plurality of the audience of MMORPGs, which is surprising.

Lobohan, maybe I read more into what you were saying, but it rubbed me the wrong way, and I'm not Dangerosa. However, I did team with Dangerosa a lot, and let me assure you, she was not building nor playing min-maxed characters. Personally, I liked that ED opened up options, and that the game was rebalanced the way it was.

[Dangerosa]

No, Eliza certainly wasn't.

What I don't like is that when I play my game, its my game. I don't like someone saying "oh, well, it isn't the game the way we wanted you to play it, here, play it differently." I liked the way I was playing it. I don't enjoy building characters, so if you gimp powers, or change mechanics and force a respec on me, for a character I know how to play, I resent it. I don't play on teams, I generally duo with Brainiac4 or solo my characters, so some fire blaster doing bookoo damage or some invulnerability tank able to hold aggro on 92 guys and survive really doesn't effect my game one way or another. If I do team and I don't like your build, well, I can drop from the team.

Starting out with ED would have been fine, I have no problem with it as game theory. I have a problem with telling people they aren't supposed to like what they have been enjoying - and paying you for. "Hey, you guys aren't playing it RIGHT and I'm going to force you to do it my way - and all you guys who complain are a bunch of whiners" is not the way I expect to be treated by a company I've given several hundred dollars to over the past few years.

[Dangerosa]

Oh, and Mr. Odds, we do miss you. If you ever find time to come back.....

[D_Odds]

Actually, I recently upgraded my computer, reloaded CoH, and logged on as ERG-1 last Tuesday. I should be around this weekend, relearning the game. :)

[Lute Skywatcher]

Anyone who has played any RPGs know anything that isn't expressly forbidden or actively discouraged is fair game. Right. And those who bothered to read the manual should have realized that forced diversification would have come along eventually. It was clearly a case of not knowing the plurality of the audience of MMORPGs, which is surprising.To be fair, this was Emmert's baby and he had only written stuff for P&P games before.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Starting out with ED would have been fine, I have no problem with it as game theory. I have a problem with telling people they aren't supposed to like what they have been enjoying - and paying you for. "Hey, you guys aren't playing it RIGHT and I'm going to force you to do it my way - and all you guys who complain are a bunch of whiners" is not the way I expect to be treated by a company I've given several hundred dollars to over the past few years.Well, what else would you expect from a long-time P&P guy in his first foray into DM'ing a computer game? :p

[Lightnin']

Regardless of the system they use at the core, I'd like to see a few changes made from CoX.

I hate that, at level 60, I have to worry about gangs of roving Lab Technicians, fer cryin' out loud. Make me feel as though I've increased in power as I leveled up. That means that, in the beginning, I'm fighting thugs... but in the end-game, I'm beating up Doctor Destroyer.

If I see a single "Defeat X number of random bad guys" mission, my eyes will spontaneously bleed with such force that my monitor will be cracked in half. I want to feel as though I'm in a comic book, not as if I'm filling in a spreadsheet.

I want to be able to turn off all those damn auras. Seriously, whenever I got a character up to about level 50 or so, I had so many active powers with attendant glows that I started to suffer serious eyestrain.

[D_Odds]

CoX goes up to 60 now? Do I need to unretire my 50? I've been away for too long!

[Maus Magill]

CoX goes up to 60 now? Do I need to unretire my 50? I've been away for too long!
No. I think either Castle or Positron indicated that they have no current plans to raise the cap.

Oh, and welcome back.

[D_Odds]

I hate that, at level 60, I have to worry about gangs of roving Lab Technicians, fer cryin' out loud. Make me feel as though I've increased in power as I leveled up. That means that, in the beginning, I'm fighting thugs... but in the end-game, I'm beating up Doctor Destroyer.Actually, while those Lab Technicians are tougher than they need to be, this is one thing CoH got right. I've been playing Lord of the Rings Online. It seems that at no matter what level, you are facing the same thing over and over and over. In CoH, you can outlevel some foes. You get the feeling of accomplishment when you graduate to fighting Tsoo, and then another feeling of accomplishment when the Tsoo are no longer a threat.

[CandidGamera]

Actually, while those Lab Technicians are tougher than they need to be, this is one thing CoH got right. I've been playing Lord of the Rings Online. It seems that at no matter what level, you are facing the same thing over and over and over. In CoH, you can outlevel some foes. You get the feeling of accomplishment when you graduate to fighting Tsoo, and then another feeling of accomplishment when the Tsoo are no longer a threat.

Crey Industries : Now Hiring

We're looking for a few good lab techs. Must have a bachelor's degree in biology, and fifteen million hit points, and the ability to punch through a dump truck.

[Dangerosa]

Crey Industries : Now Hiring

We're looking for a few good lab techs. Must have a bachelor's degree in biology, and fifteen million hit points, and the ability to punch through a dump truck.

I have an admiration of Crey and their diversity hiring initiatives.

[E-Sabbath]

CoH was impossible. It was the first game from a new studio. When it was announced, there had never been a successful superhero game of any complexity. (X-Men arcade is essentially a side-scroller, and Superhero League of Hoboken wasn't that complex. Freedom Force came out after CoH was in deep design phase)
Even a year later, there was nothing even close to CoH from a sheer freedom of movement and exploration perspective.
Even now, there's nothing that can come close to showing the variety it has in it.

The fact that it didn't suck horribly and implode, that's a miracle. That a lot of things were overlooked on a basic design level... not so much a surprise.

[MaxTheVool]

IGN article with trailer (including in-game footage) (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/854/854285p1.html)

[Brainiac4]

Right. And those who bothered to read the manual should have realized that forced diversification would have come along eventually.
Lute, you're being obnoxious. It may have been obvious to you, but to insist that it should have been obvious to everyone is narrow-minded. It was not obvious to me, and I DID read the manual, and have been playing RPGs (and getting deep into the rules) for more than 20 years.

I don't have high hopes for Champions Online. I see good things in the list of features -- designing your own nemesis sounds like fun, and building in power effects customization is something CoH should have done already. But going to more action-oriented (no auto-attacks or recharge timers) sounds to me like twitch gaming, which I enjoy less and less as the years pile up.

Jack Emmert's apparent inability to cope with alternative visions for how to play "his" game is another factor. Maybe he's learned, but I don't know what he would have learned from, and I haven't seen any evidence of it -- although I haven't been looking, so it may have simply escaped me.

And the Champions universe sucks donkey balls. I don't know if it was the terrible art or the lame derivative characters, but I have always hated the Champions universe. Sorry, Foxbat fans.

[E-Sabbath]

I've rarely liked the Champions themselves, but the universe characters reached levels of awesome.

[Lightray]

And the Champions universe sucks donkey balls. I don't know if it was the terrible art or the lame derivative characters, but I have always hated the Champions universe. Sorry, Foxbat fans.
The art in all the Hero books has gotten really, really, really crappy. Ever since their financial troubles a few years back, it's just absolutely awful.

Which is rather sad, because the art after the release of 5th edition was quite good. I hadn't realized how much the art affected my interest in the books or setting, until I picked up some of the recent releases. Ugh. Even if the ideas and characters were interesting, the visual depiction killed my interest.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Lute, you're being obnoxious. It may have been obvious to you, but to insist that it should have been obvious to everyone is narrow-minded.Maybe so but what else could have been done? Leave the mechanics alone at let the game stagnate? Tell those who did follow the manual's suggestion they'd have to follow the min/maxers?

[Dangerosa]

Maybe so but what else could have been done? Leave the mechanics alone at let the game stagnate? Tell those who did follow the manual's suggestion they'd have to follow the min/maxers?

How does someone else's min/max game affect your play? MMORGs aren't competitive - or at least, I've never played them competitively. If the game was designed to be played by those choosing to follow the manuals suggestions for ED, then it will still work for those that choose to play the game that way. For those that want to min/max, it also works, its just a different experience.

CoH actually did a lot of things along with ED to make it playable for everyone - being able to set mission difficulty. Scaling missions based on party size. Letting you choose whether you wanted to level slowing going after Blue/Greens or level quickly going after Reds. All of those things allow ME to choose how I want my game to be played. Forced ED takes away my CHOICE.

[Lobohan]

How does someone else's min/max game affect your play?

I already said this earlier in the thread but here it goes again.

If you six slot for damage you'll be able to breeze through enemies. Your ingenious build of putting the same enhancement in a power six times will give you an advantage. :rolleyes:

Other players will team with you and wonder why SuperJoeBob is doing three times their damage with the same attack. And they'll hit on the masterful insight that you have discovered. And they will six slot.

Eventually a large portion of players will be six slotting because they can gain levels faster and work less to get the same result.

The Devs want there to be a reasonable level of challenge in the game. So they up the bad guys defense or resistance. Now the people who don't six slot are at an increased disadvantage. You have to six slot so you can be viable.

If you have to build a certain way to be viable it isn't a balanced game.

So your technique of cramming damage (or recharge, or whatever) enhancements into your power can destabilize the game. If you can't see that I don't know what to say. It had to be done. It's just something they didn't realize would be as unbalancing in the original release. They found out they were wrong and made the changes necessary to ensure that it's a good game for everyone. Sheesh.

[Dangerosa]

I already said this earlier in the thread but here it goes again.

If you six slot for damage you'll be able to breeze through enemies. Your ingenious build of putting the same enhancement in a power six times will give you an advantage. :rolleyes:

Other players will team with you and wonder why SuperJoeBob is doing three times their damage with the same attack. And they'll hit on the masterful insight that you have discovered. And they will six slot.

Eventually a large portion of players will be six slotting because they can gain levels faster and work less to get the same result.

The Devs want there to be a reasonable level of challenge in the game. So they up the bad guys defense or resistance. Now the people who don't six slot are at an increased disadvantage. You have to six slot so you can be viable.

If you have to build a certain way to be viable it isn't a balanced game.

So your technique of cramming damage (or recharge, or whatever) enhancements into your power can destabilize the game. If you can't see that I don't know what to say. It had to be done. It's just something they didn't realize would be as unbalancing in the original release. They found out they were wrong and made the changes necessary to ensure that it's a good game for everyone. Sheesh.

And? I don't get why someone else leveling faster or breezing through enemies impacts your game. You want a challenge, play differently. I don't see how this destabilizes my game or your game at all. Why does the game need to be balanced?

[Lobohan]

And? I don't get why someone else leveling faster or breezing through enemies impacts your game. You want a challenge, play differently. I don't see how this destabilizes my game or your game at all. Why does the game need to be balanced?

Because everyone will do it. If you can level in 1/3rd the time almost everyone will do it. It becomes the new normal. Since the devs want you to keep playing they don't want to give out 50th level characters for a weekend of work. So they make the bad guys harder for you to kill, so even with everyone slotting it still takes the same amount of time to level.

People are lazy by default. They won't work three times as long when a nice little cheat is right there. The devs have to reset it so the average player still takes X amount of time to level. When the average player six slots you have no room to do anything else. ED frees you from the limiting factor of only having six slotted attacks. It lets you buy other stuff like KB boosts, END reducers or ACC buffs.

[Dangerosa]

Because everyone will do it. If you can level in 1/3rd the time almost everyone will do it. It becomes the new normal. Since the devs want you to keep playing they don't want to give out 50th level characters for a weekend of work. So they make the bad guys harder for you to kill, so even with everyone slotting it still takes the same amount of time to level.

People are lazy by default. They won't work three times as long when a nice little cheat is right there. The devs have to reset it so the average player still takes X amount of time to level. When the average player six slots you have no room to do anything else. ED frees you from the limiting factor of only having six slotted attacks. It lets you buy other stuff like KB boosts, END reducers or ACC buffs.

And? If everyone does it and they are enjoying the game, what is the problem?

[Lobohan]

And? If everyone does it and they are enjoying the game, what is the problem?

I posted at length above what the problems are. If you aren't going to even address my points I'm done talking to you about them. Hate CoX, it's your prerogative after all.

[Dangerosa]

I posted at length above what the problems are. If you aren't going to even address my points I'm done talking to you about them. Hate CoX, it's your prerogative after all.

Actually, I don't hate it. I actually enjoy the game. I didn't enjoy Jack Emmertt's attitude and threw a little party when he left - which is sort of the point of this thread, not excited about Champions because of who is associated with it. And the point I'm trying to make is that the problems so obvious to you were not even problems to many CoX players - they were features - part of what made the game enjoyable. CoX subscriptions dropped after ED - they had less customers - not a great business decision.

[Brainiac4]

I posted at length above what the problems are. If you aren't going to even address my points I'm done talking to you about them. Hate CoX, it's your prerogative after all.
You posted what you see the problems as being. Dangerosa seems to be pointing out that she doesn't share your viewpoint.

I'm not entirely sure I do, either. There is, from my viewpoint, really only one valid reason to make a change to the game: increasing player enjoyment, which presumably aids player retention and thus drives revenue from subscriptions.

ED, insofar as it made different build strategies necessary, made the game more balanced, but not more enjoyable. Someone else leveling faster or slower doesn't affect me at all. CoH, prior to the Consignment Market, had no player-driven economy component, and all missions are instanced. Apart from street hunting and roleplaying, there was basically no interaction between characters... aside from PvP.

So unless you're engaging in PvP, or you really really care that someone else is more or less effective than you are, the change didn't really affect you -- aside from, as Dangerosa pointed out, making you respec your character, which is not necessarily something that everyone enjoys.

I get that you feel that ED made the game better, and for the most part I agree (although I don't agree that ED was/is a necessary prerequisite to Inventions), but I had the same reaction to it that Dangerosa did -- "Why are they telling me I'm not playing the game right? Why are they telling me I'm not having fun, when I am?" That is what the key problem was -- not the change, but the way it was framed when it was made.

By the way, ED doesn't "free me" from having six-slotted damage in my attacks. The diminishing returns of ED encourage me to do other things, but I was already reserving at least one slot for ACC -- it doesn't matter how much damage you do if you miss. :)

Side question: how long have you been playing CoH?

[D_Odds]

Before ED, like B4, I always had at least one slot for ACC. Then, depending on the attack, I would either 4 or 5 slot damage. I like attacks that stun, so I often would slot a Disorient Duration (Sappers can't sap if their staggering, and it lasts longer than KB), and my (still) pre-pet controller can barely hurt a fly (but nobody moves for entire fights).

I will admit to feeling less capable in PUGs, which I would use to do Task Force missions. I didn't have a cookie-cutter build (until changes made one of my builds a 'new' cookie cutter build), and I didn't use cookie cutter tactics. I like ED, because it removed what I felt was the 'burden' of Hasten in builds. Now I have a slot reserved for recharge. I still occassionally get a beat or two of downtime in my attack chains (especially at long range), but I now have another attack I didn't have room for pre-hasten.

No one is arguing that is was a bad idea. People are arguing that it was shoved down players throats in a poor manner, with Emmert pretty much saying RTFM. As I said, that is a very dismissive statement.

[Lute Skywatcher]

And? I don't get why someone else leveling faster or breezing through enemies impacts your game. You want a challenge, play differently. I don't see how this destabilizes my game or your game at all. Why does the game need to be balanced?The game would stagnate, as I said. How could the devs add any sort of new content? Why introduce PvP? Why introduce IOs?

Can you imagine the result if content & PvP were added without addressing anything? The result would still have been one set of players getting a new playstyle forced down their throat.

[Lute Skywatcher]

I don't agree that ED was/is a necessary prerequisite to InventionsAny incentive to use them would have been roughly nil.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Jack Emmert on Cryptic's success (and failure) (http://www.massively.com/2008/02/22/gdc08-jack-emmert-on-cryptics-success-and-failure/)They decided to make an MMO without any serious MMO experience and honestly never considered the potential of players min/maxing or searching for every possible way to exploit the game. The Cryptic team played the game and thought it was fun without seeing the potential issues a massively multiplayer environment would present.

[D_Odds]

That's what I said!

[D_Odds]

Another quote:It's pretty nice to see Jack Emmert quoted saying, "I think we're kind of passed the point of forced teaming."

[Lute Skywatcher]

That's what I said!Now you have it straight from State's mouth. :)

Or rather from State's mouth via Massively. ;)

[Brainiac4]

The game would stagnate, as I said. How could the devs add any sort of new content? Why introduce PvP? Why introduce IOs?

Can you imagine the result if content & PvP were added without addressing anything? The result would still have been one set of players getting a new playstyle forced down their throat.
I'm not seeing the connection. Why does other people's play speed have any effect on me? With or without ED, you could add new content, which people would experience either slowly or quickly, depending on how "optimized" their build was. PvP would be a problem, but it's a problem with or without ED -- different archetypes and powersets simply are more or less effective against certain others. Witness the continual attempts to "balance" PvP.

And, as pointed out before, the real problem isn't the change. It's the attitude with which the change was presented. I get that some people feel it was a necessary change. Do you get that others have a different point of view?

Jack Emmert didn't seem to grasp that alternative points of view were worthy of anything more than ridicule, and that really bothered me. Which hasn't prevented me from signing up for an account at Champions Online, I should add. Despite my dislike for the lame-ass Champions Universe, I'm just a sucker for superhero gaming. :)

[Brainiac4]

Any incentive to use them would have been roughly nil.
I'm not getting this either. Do you mean the incentive to use the *sets* would be nil, since they span multiple types of enhancement? Because with or without ED, the incentive to use a crafted enhancement that delivers greater benefit than an SO and never decays is pretty damn strong.

[Lute Skywatcher]

I'm not seeing the connection. Why does other people's play speed have any effect on me? With or without ED, you could add new content, which people would experience either slowly or quickly, depending on how "optimized" their build was.People can still progress quickly via powerleveling. And what happens? They zoom to 50 then complain there's nothing to do.

Sure, the devs could have added content without adjusting anything but that would have meant the min/maxers zooming to 50 and complaining there's nothing to do or they could have made it harder for everyone and essentially force the diversifiers to join the min/maxers. That's when it becomes a problem for me, it's the mirror image of the ED problem.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Do you mean the incentive to use the *sets* would be nil, since they span multiple types of enhancement? That, and it would mean unslotting all those damage enhancements.

[D_Odds]

People can still progress quickly via powerleveling. And what happens? They zoom to 50 then complain there's nothing to do. That has been, and will continue to be, an issue with any MMORPG. For some, high level fastest is how they "win". Then once they "win", they complain, usually the longest and the loudest.

Despite my dislike for the lame-ass Champions UniverseKeep this up, and you and I are going to have to throw down. Of all the roleplaying I've done, Champions was the longest running and most fun of any campaign (followed by Traveller and Shadowrun). I like Foxbat, Ultron (I mean Mechanon) and Doctor Doom (oops, Dr. Destroyer).

[Brainiac4]

Keep this up, and you and I are going to have to throw down. Of all the roleplaying I've done, Champions was the longest running and most fun of any campaign (followed by Traveller and Shadowrun). I like Foxbat, Ultron (I mean Mechanon) and Doctor Doom (oops, Dr. Destroyer).
Champions is probably my favorite RPG ever. But as you yourself point out, the universe is incredibly derivative. The game's great, but the setting sucks. I liked making my own heroes better. For one thing, you get to be the stars of the story, instead of being the also-rans.

[Pleonast]

Champions is probably my favorite RPG ever. But as you yourself point out, the universe is incredibly derivative. The game's great, but the setting sucks. I liked making my own heroes better. For one thing, you get to be the stars of the story, instead of being the also-rans.Until Champions Online was announced, I had no idea there was an official Champions setting. I thought it was only a rules set. My gaming group certainly never used the setting or even recognized its existence.

[Brainiac4]

Until Champions Online was announced, I had no idea there was an official Champions setting. I thought it was only a rules set. My gaming group certainly never used the setting or even recognized its existence.
Consider yourself lucky. ;)

[D_Odds]

Consider yourself lucky. ;)
Alright, that's it! Pistols at dawn, sir!

Of course, I'll come to you with a submachine gun at 3:00am, but don't worry about that.

[Brainiac4]

Alright, that's it! Pistols at dawn, sir!

Of course, I'll come to you with a submachine gun at 3:00am, but don't worry about that.
My Fire Imps will greet you at the door. :P