Vote Fraud in Florida?

[Diceman]

Can anyone shed any light on allegations that there's been a large amound of "irregularities" in Florida? I've heard allegations of misprinted ballots which would seem to favor Gore, plus allegations from the Bush camp that a few ballot boxes around Tallihassie have disappeared? What the fuck is happening down there? And what happens if, at the end of the day, they have to throw up their arms and say "The Florida vote is royally hosed and we can't say who won"?

[vd]

I don't know if these are the same ones but there were some (3?) ballot boxes missing last night that were soon after found hiding in plain sight pretty much where they were supposed to be.

[Diceman]

I don't know where the missing ballot boxes are from. I heard that they were from Tallihassie. What county is that? I don't have a road atlas or anything like that handy.

[ZenBeam]

Regarding the "misprinted" ballots, from the ABCnews online site, here (http://abcnews.go.com:80/sections/politics/DailyNews/ELECTION_WatchdogPart4001107.html) is an article, complete with a picture of the ballot. It sounds like two things: 1) The holes were lined up to make it confusing which hole to punch to vote for Gore. Unfortunately, you can't really see where the holes are. 2) Sample ballots that didn't match the real ballots, so if you followed the sample ballot to mark your real ballot, you'd mark the wrong candidate. Not pictured, but described in the text.

[pldennison]

Actually, the ballots in questions, from West Palm Beach County, are designed in such a way that many who thought they were voting for Gore may have voted for Buchanan by mistake. You can see one here (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/elections/palmbeachballot.htm). (Keep in mind that much of the population of this county is elderly and may not have the best eyesight.)

[ladybug]

Diceman, Tallahassee is in north Florida in ... (*checks map*) Leon County. Not too far from the Georgia border.

CNN is reporting that a locked ballot box was found in a church daycare center in Dade County (Miami area). Apparently it was left behind after the polls closed.

[ladybug]

(*rereads OP*) Ballot boxes disappeared in Tallahassee, too?

This morning I heard that the absolute earliest time the recount could be finished is 5 p.m. today. Who knows when we'll find out the results.

[Whack-a-Mole]

Diceman wrote:
And what happens if, at the end of the day, they have to throw up their arms and say "The Florida vote is royally hosed and we can't say who won"?

This can't happen. For better or worse Florida will say XXX won our state (and thus the overall election). Candidates can fight the decision as much as they want but in the end this is what will happen and the country will have to live with it.

Think of it like a football game where a ref makes a bad call changing the outcome of the game. Even if everyone agrees it was a bad call once the game is over it's over and the final score goes down in the books. (For the sake of argument ignore instant replay.)

[pezpunk]

Originally posted by Diceman
Can anyone shed any light on allegations that there's been a large amound of "irregularities" in Florida

I have lived in Florida for about 8 years and I STILL can't explain the irregularities down here! I think it has to do with inbreeding :p

[Kyberneticist]

Question. And officemate claims that sample ballots were printed in a different order then the official ones, causing confusion.

A) Is this common? (I would assume so, since the sample ballot is just that, a sample)
B) Were the Reform and Democrat slots indeed swapped on the samples ballots from parts of florida?

[lucwarm]

Ultimately, wouldn't the question (of what to do) by up to the so-called "electors"?

In Jr. High School Civics, I was taught that the "electoral college" is a real group of people - "electors", with different numbers from different states. It is the electors who vote for president. In theory, they are entitled to disregard the popular vote. Once in a while, one does so. If all this is true, and the Florida vote stays "cloudy," couldn't the electors just vote for whomever they like better?

[Munch]

Yes, lucwarm, but its the popular election that determines who those electors are. Each candidate has 25 electors in Florida. If Bush wins the Fl. popular vote, then his 25 electors vote. If Gore wins the Fl. popular vote, then HIS 25 electors vote.

[BobT]

If Jeb Bush gets to send his electors to Tallahassee to vote on December 18 (which he will if George W wins FL by as little as 1 vote), trust me, those 25 people aren't going to change their minds at the last minute.

If some Repulican elector defected from Florida, I think it safe to say that George W and Jeb won't be eating Christmas dinner in the same house.

[wring]

lucwarm although in theory, an elector may vote for whomever (at least in some states, others mandate that the elector vote for the designated person), the position of "elector" is considered to be a "reward" for loyal party members, an honor, so while it MIGHT not be impossible, it's improbable to the degree you shouldn't worry about it.


Re: sample ballots etc being different. An election worker I heard this am made the statement that it's common for ballots to appear differently so that no single candidate appears in the "first position" on all ballots. or at least that was the stance in Ingham County, MI.

[ElvisL1ves]

Is there any doubt that the petitions to the federal courts over each of these things have already been written, and are just waiting for the FL Sec of State's proclamation of a winner?

"Send lawyers, guns, and money / The shit has hit the fan."
- Warren Zevon

[Spoke]

Originally posted by Jeff_42
Diceman wrote:
And what happens if, at the end of the day, they have to throw up their arms and say "The Florida vote is royally hosed and we can't say who won"?

This can't happen. For better or worse Florida will say XXX won our state (and thus the overall election). Candidates can fight the decision as much as they want but in the end this is what will happen and the country will have to live with it.

Think of it like a football game where a ref makes a bad call changing the outcome of the game. Even if everyone agrees it was a bad call once the game is over it's over and the final score goes down in the books. (For the sake of argument ignore instant replay.)

That just ain't so.

If a court challenge is filed, and the judge finds evidence of election fraud, he or she could theoretically throw out the results and order a special election.

Granted, this is an unlikely result, but it is certainly a theoretical possibility.

In a special election, Gore would have the edge, because Nader voters would know [u]in advance[/i] that their votes could turn the entire national election, and that their candidate has no chance of getting his 5%, and might be more inclined to switch over to Gore.

[writefetus]

I have lived in Florida for about 8 years and I STILL can't explain the irregularities down here! I think it has to do with inbreeding :p [/B][/QUOTE]

....I always suspected something in the water.

[Guinastasia]

Think ol' Jeb was screwing around with the voting?
Wouldn't surprise me...

[yabob]

If they REALLY can't settle the Florida electoral vote, the precedent is the 1876 Hayes/Tilden election. Odd coincidence - Florida was one of the disputed states in that fiasco as well.

Background - in the 1876 election, results from four states were disputed, with enough votes to give Hayes the election if he was awarded all of them. A 15 person committee was formed to rule on the outcome, which eventually gaves Hayes the votes, 8-7, right along party lines.

[Spoke]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Think ol' Jeb was screwing around with the voting?
Wouldn't surprise me...


I did think it odd that the poll results were apparently markedly different from what the exit polls predicted.

On the other hand, I believe the Florida Secretary of State (who is in charge of elections) is a Democrat.

[Diceman]

Alright, it seems that the "missing" ballots turned up. Now I'm suspicious of the opposite form of fraud: ballot stuffing. How can so many ballot boxes (3 or 4) be misplaced? These things are pretty big, and they're the center of attention of the entire electorial staff. Am I mistaken that it's rather suspicious that several pro-Gore areas conveniently overlooked a bunch of votes? Is it possible that someone used the time that they were "missing" to cast a few thousand votes of their own?

[Spoke]

Originally posted by Diceman
Alright, it seems that the "missing" ballots turned up. Now I'm suspicious of the opposite form of fraud: ballot stuffing. How can so many ballot boxes (3 or 4) be misplaced? These things are pretty big, and they're the center of attention of the entire electorial staff. Am I mistaken that it's rather suspicious that several pro-Gore areas conveniently overlooked a bunch of votes? Is it possible that someone used the time that they were "missing" to cast a few thousand votes of their own?

The very sort of questions which could conceivably cause a judge to throw out the election results and order a special election.

[MovieMogul]

On the other hand, I believe the Florida Secretary of State (who is in charge of elections) is a Democrat.

Actually, she is a Republican. The Attorney General, who is also deeply involved in the process, is a Democrat.

My wife and were joking about Jeb's whereabouts all last night. Nobody said where he was. Presumably he was in FL, which laid all sorts of opportunities to conspiracy-theorize or tails off to pass the time... :)

[JSexton]

Regarding the missing ballot boxes: There are records indicating how many registered voters showed up. If that number turns out to be lower than the number of votes cast after the missing boxes are added in, that will be clear evidence of ballot-stuffing. And it will be checked out thoroughly.

Of course, I had my suspicions when CNN reported that Bush was "working the phones" after Florida's polls closed. Who the hell was he calling that could change the outcome, hmm?

[Gazoo]

Originally posted by JSexton
Of course, I had my suspicions when CNN reported that Bush was "working the phones" after Florida's polls closed. Who the hell was he calling that could change the outcome, hmm?
Umm, people in states where the polls were still open perhaps?

[Diceman]

I just heard this on CNN: the uncounted ballot box from Dade County did not contain any votes. It was full of election supplies. I assume this means blank ballots, pencils, and "I Voted" stickers. But apparently not anything that will effect the election.

[G.B.H. Hornswoggler]

Originally posted by JSexton
Of course, I had my suspicions when CNN reported that Bush was "working the phones" after Florida's polls closed. Who the hell was he calling that could change the outcome, hmm?

I know a lot of east-coast Democratic phone banks were switching over to calling West Coast voters after the polls closed there, so I don't think it's inconceivable that the Republicans would be doing the same.

I also think Jeb would be pretty busy in general last night: his brother was running for Prez (gotta call him every few hours to buck up his spirits and check in) and he probably had some duties related to the election.

But if you're looking for conspiracies, I'm sure you'll find some. Hey, where were Henry Kissinger and Queen Elizabeth last night?! (obligatory Lyndon LaRouche reference)

[Nixon]

If there are any major irregularities (major in the sense as few as 2000-3000 votes)... a BIG if...

Then a special election is not only likely but preferable to spending the next four years arguing about a stolen election.

Obviously Gore (and other losers like Robb) blew their election by underestimating their opponents and refusing to go negative early.

Gore should have run a commercial early on featuring Medal of Honor winner Sen. Bob Kerry's denunciation of Bush's "war" record and his "service" in the MS National Guard.

Bush's boozing should have been out in front from the start - though I think W would have handled his reform quite well.

America has been through close elections and election scandals before and the outcome was never pretty. Andrew Jackson formed the Democratic Party after losing the Presidency in the Congress despite winning most popular votes. The Tilden/Hayes election confirmed in most southern minds that the GOP was nothing more than an occupying force and that blacks must be barred from voting altogether.

Nixon's refusal to contest the 1960 election got him no respect from either the press or the Democrats and laid the ground for both his political paranoia and desire for revenge.

How likely are their irregularities in the Florida vote. Very unlikely, I think but with it this close, it wouldn't take much. I'm reminded of a scene just before the election in Florida in which state agriculture workers, acting with basic gestapo tactics barged onto private property and cut down homeowners' citrus trees on the theory they "might" be diseased. No court order, no due process - though no doubt perfectly legal.

The defining characteristic of the new Bush GOP: Private property rights are valued on how much you have.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by ArchiveGuy
My wife and were joking about Jeb's whereabouts all last night. Nobody said where he was. Presumably he was in FL, which laid all sorts of opportunities to conspiracy-theorize or tails off to pass the time... :)
I'm pretty sure he was in Austin with the rest of the family.

[Dinsdale]

Yeah, the Trib had a pic of paterfamilias George, W, and Jeb hanging out in Austin. W was the one with a phone in his hand. Actually, this photo was enuf to convince me I am glad I am not in politics. All 3 of these rich guys are hanging out, watching the tube, AND THEIR WEARING TIES!!

As far as "what kind of a state ...?" My favorite Florida memory is when their electric chair, affectionately called "Old Sparky" malfunctioned, resulting in flames shooting out of a prisoner's head. A day or so afterwards a state level official said, "If you're thinking about committing murder, you might want to think twice about doing it in Florida, cause we've been having problems with our chair." I almost wet myself just thinking about it!

[yamo1]

Link to really cool news story (http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,247897-412,00.shtml)

James E harris? !0k Gore votes right there.


[note: I fixed the link. -manhattan]

[Edited by manhattan on 11-08-2000 at 06:44 PM]

[yamo1]

http://www.abcnews.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/ELECTION_WatchdogPart6001108.html


I'm willing to conceed that Bush won Florida...Jeb Bush that is. I guess Pater's expeience rigging third world elections REALLY came in hanyy. Someone get a rope!

[MEBuckner]

Another possible balloting quirk was in Volusia Country, where James E. Harris, an obscure Socialist candidate, polled 9,888 votes out of his statewide total of 10,471.

Okay, this is the first I've heard about this. The vote counts I've seen (off the CNN website) don't even show James E. Harris, let alone with over 10,000 votes (which would have him breathing down Buchanan's neck for fifth place, especially if Pat really got 3,000 or so votes in Palm Beach County because some twit can't design a ballot to save her life and a bunch of retirees wore their driving glasses instead of their reading glasses in the voting booths.) Anybody have any more info on this one?

[SterlingNorth]

CBS News (http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,247897-412,00.shtml)
Another possible balloting quirk was in Volusia Country, where James E. Harris, an obscure Socialist candidate, polled 9,888 votes out of his statewide total of 10,471. State Democratic Party officials raised concerns that a computer error may have caused the outsized ballot for Harris in Volusia County, south of Daytona Beach on Florida's East Coast. In other counties, Harris received 0, 1, or 2 votes.

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49314-2000Nov8.html)
He received only 16,962 votes statewide, according to unofficial totals, but 3,407, or about one-fifth of that total, from this one county, and many of those votes from precincts that are dominated by elderly Democratic voters, such as the Century Village retirement community. By contrast, according to the Miami Herald, Buchanan received only 561 votes in all of the Miami metropolitan area.

[pldennison]

Originally posted by ArchiveGuy
On the other hand, I believe the Florida Secretary of State (who is in charge of elections) is a Democrat.

Actually, she is a Republican. The Attorney General, who is also deeply involved in the process, is a Democrat.


Not only is Florida Attorney General Bob Butterworth a Democrat, he happens to be the chairman of Al Gore's Florida campaign. Looks like we can come up with wacky conspiracy theories on both sides.

[Fiver]

Guinastasia:Think ol' Jeb was screwing around with the voting?
Wouldn't surprise me...I think the Bushes, all Bushes, are capable of anything. I wouldn't put any deceit past them. But I don't suspect Jeb in this case. If he had rigged the results, you'd think both:

a) that he would have stayed in Florida on Election Day to supervise the rigging, and

b) that the margin of victory for big brother would have been much wider.

[retsin2000]

Has anyone heard about the socialist candidate James Harris getting a ton of votes in Volusia county?

Here (http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,247897-412,00.shtml) is the CBS news story. The following paragraphs are about two thirds of the way down.

Another possible balloting quirk was in Volusia Country, where James E. Harris, an obscure Socialist candidate, polled 9,888 votes out of his statewide total of 10,471.

State Democratic Party officials raised concerns that a computer error may have caused the outsized ballot for Harris in Volusia County, south of Daytona Beach on Florida's East Coast. In other counties, Harris received 0, 1, or 2 votes.

I have not heard this anywhere else and the recount of that county shows no change. What gives? Is the CBS report wrong or are there really that many socialists in one FL county?

[ZenBeam]

From Reuters (through Lycos) (http://news.lycos.com/headlines/TopNews/article.asp?docid=RTNEWS-ELECTION-LEADALL-DC&date=20001109),

ANOTHER 19,000 VOTES DISQUALIFIED

Democratic Rep. Robert Wexler of Florida said 19,000 votes in Palm Beach County in his state had been disqualified because of the confusing design of the ballot paper.

Wexler said because of the way the ballot was laid out, many people had double-punched their cards, leading to disqualification because they voted twice -- once for Gore and then for Buchanan.

Now that's a Democrat quoted, and you don't know how many of those 19,000 were punched (Buchanan, Gore) vs (Bush, Buchanon) vs others. But still, 19,000 votes disqualified due to a confusing ballot, in an election where the latest difference between Gore and Bush is 799 votes, is huge.

[yamo1]

http://www.news-journalonline.com/pol/elect/2000vol.htm


http://www.volusia.org/11-8c-00.htm

Harris-8 votes.


http://elect.cbsig.net/campaign2000results/election/index.html

10,469 state wide.

[retsin2000]

Thanks yamo1. I figured if the CBS report was accurate it would be popping up all over the place.

[yamo1]

Not saying that all is kosher in Volusia. While Volusia totals for Harris have dropped I have read that the Bush/Gore totals were unchanged. Still 10k votes missing. Can some one make sense of this?

[yamo1]

http://www.unitedstates.com/cgi-bin/content//385109/volusia