Mafia: The Mob is Recruiting [Game Finished]

[Santo Rugger]

fluiddruid, would it be possible for you to include an end-of-Day time and timezone in your vote tallies, please?

[Hawkeyeop]

Again, really? I thought that was one of the roles open to capoing. Well the vig will know better than I can. In that case, I amend my statment to, VIG I think you outted yourself accidentally and that you should claim.

Yup, I know this because I got it wrong earlier in this game.

We should discuss what the cops should do tonight. I suggest the chief checks out the doctor's claim. Someone should also check the detective's. However, we want to avoid too many beat cops out and about. How about, if there is a cop who didn't start the game as a cop, they check out the detective. The rest of the beat cops stay silent to avoid lowering percentages. Of course, this risks that the chief hasn't used his ability yet. Anyone have a better idea? Anyone else we need to check?

[HazelNutCoffee]

I'd rather stick with my vote now PRECISELY because I don't want to force anymore role-claims at this point. If we lynch a vanilla townie, so be it. At this point we still have a much higher chance of lynching town rather than scum, so if we must lynch town I'd rather we lynch someone without a power role.

[NAF1138]

Yup, I know this because I got it wrong earlier in this game.

We should discuss what the cops should do tonight. I suggest the chief checks out the doctor's claim. Someone should also check the detective's. However, we want to avoid too many beat cops out and about. How about, if there is a cop who didn't start the game as a cop, they check out the detective. The rest of the beat cops stay silent to avoid lowering percentages. Of course, this risks that the chief hasn't used his ability yet. Anyone have a better idea? Anyone else we need to check?


I really hope the chief has used their ability by now. Other than that, I think it is a good plan.

[MHaye]

NETA :

Fluiddruid, which ruling is correct? Post 37 or post 999?

[Santo Rugger]

<snip> Anyone have a better idea?<snip>

I do. [Napolean Dynomite]They should do whatever they feel like, gosh.[/ND]

But seriously, ordering the power roles to do something and them following only allows the scum to manipulate their Night actions to suit said orders.

[fluiddruid]

NETA :

Fluiddruid, which ruling is correct? Post 37 or post 999?Edited my post to state my previous ruling was correct. Had forgotten about that.

It's 10:39AM CST. Dusk is at 11:00AM CST.

[NAF1138]

I do. [Napolean Dynomite]They should do whatever they feel like, gosh.[/ND]

But seriously, ordering the power roles to do something and them following only allows the scum to manipulate their Night actions to suit said orders.


But it doesn't hurt to make suggestions. Which is why we should have been talking about this earlier in the Day and earlier in the game. I think we should have as much info going out to the power roles as possible so they don't HAVE to make decisions in a vaccume. They can then read what has been said and do what they want. But their decision will at least be informed by a larger number of people. And the earlier we do this, the more likely it will be advice from people with pro town intentions at heart. After Day4 I am not sure how helpful it will be.

[fluiddruid]

Game master note: Anytime we have last minute choices during Day or Night, it will take a few minutes to post Dusk and Dawn and contact all players (where applicable). Please be patient. Even if the post does not come up immediately, the Day ends as stated.

[bufftabby]

Santo: I can't speak for anyone else, but my vote for dotchan is not based on pure lurkdom. It's based (as I stated) on her lack of response when asked about her lurkdom, followed by her reply to me that explanation wasn't necessary, only posting was,and then her subsequent lack of posting despite her assurance that it would no longer be an issue. To say it is only for lurking is a vast oversimplification.

[Darth Sensitive]

Holy crap.

I. hate. my. wifi.

I made it to a computer lab on campus. On read through, Hal can be trusted to an extent, if the bishop will come out and say. Thanks for pointing that out upteen pages ago.

I don't like the NAF bandwagon. We need to lynch somebody, I agree.

But I don't feel like there's a case on OCS.

Vote: Dotchan per bufftabby in 927.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Also - and I'll make this point in further detail Tomorrow - I don't see why lynching lurkers is a bad thing. First of all I'm not advocating lynching lurkers out of hand. My theory is that scum want to avoid suspicion at all costs (and maybe it's a bit crazy, but stick with me here). So they'll do their best to appear bland, reasonable, and otherwise harmless. In general, townies tend to stick their necks out and say stupid things that end up getting them led to the gallows. Look at how many townie power roles were on the block toDay, for example. Hell, look at CapnPitt. Scum are more likely to make "slips" rather than to say outright controversial or stupid things. This is why I'd rather go after those players laying low, at least this early in the game.

[MHaye]

Oh fudge. You put your clocks forward at the weekend. I'd forgotten. I've been sitting here thinking there was another hour to go.

Vote Dotchan, because it appears to be the least bad of the options I mentioned earlier.

[fluiddruid]

dotchan (6) - bufftabby, Hal Briston, Hawkeyeop, NAF1138, Millit the Frail, Darth Sensitive
NAF1138 (4) - Blaster Master, sinjin, OneCentStamp, Hotflungwok, (Santo Rugger), (Hockey Monkey)
OneCentStamp (3) HazelNutCoffee, (Millit the Frail), chrisk, Pleonast
Menocchio (2) - dotchan, (Drain Bead), (chrisk), (Koldanar)
Hawkeyeop (1) - Menocchio*
Koldanar (1) Drain Bead
Hal Briston (1) - (Millit the Frail), (NAF1138), (bufftabby), Diomedes, (sinjin), (Menocchio)
Millit the Frail (0) - (Santo Rugger), (Hawkeyeop)
sinjin (0) - (Hal Briston), (Pleonast), (Hawkeyeop)
Drain Bead [sub for Idle Thoughts] (0) - (Pleonast), (Menocchio), (Koldanar)
Diomedes (0) - (Hal Briston)
Pleonast (0) - (Darth Sensitive)
hotflungwok (0) - (Blaster Master)

Yet to cast a vote on Day 3:
MHaye
Freudian Slit

No current vote:

Koldanar
Hockey Monkey
Santo Rugger

The Day ends at 11AM CST (it is currently 10:49 AM CST).

[NAF1138]

Also - and I'll make this point in further detail Tomorrow - I don't see why lynching lurkers is a bad thing. First of all I'm not advocating lynching lurkers out of hand. My theory is that scum want to avoid suspicion at all costs (and maybe it's a bit crazy, but stick with me here). So they'll do their best to appear bland, reasonable, and otherwise harmless. In general, townies tend to stick their necks out and say stupid things that end up getting them led to the gallows. Look at how many townie power roles were on the block toDay, for example. Hell, look at CapnPitt. Scum are more likely to make "slips" rather than to say outright controversial or stupid things. This is why I'd rather go after those players laying low, at least this early in the game.

My support might not be a great thing for you right now, but I agree with the above completely.

[Santo Rugger]

Revote Millit, because I'm not diggin' the dotchan vote and because I want people to look back on it when I die.

[NAF1138]

Huh, looks like I might not get lynched after all. I don't know if that is a good thing or not.

[Hockey Monkey]

I'll go back with my vote for NAF now that I've caught up.

[Darth Sensitive]

Do we still think DB needs to post last nights investigation?

[fluiddruid]

dotchan (7) - bufftabby, Hal Briston, Hawkeyeop, NAF1138, Millit the Frail, Darth Sensitive, MHaye
NAF1138 (5) - Blaster Master, sinjin, OneCentStamp, Hotflungwok, (Santo Rugger), Hockey Monkey*
OneCentStamp (3) HazelNutCoffee, (Millit the Frail), chrisk, Pleonast
Menocchio (2) - dotchan, (Drain Bead), (chrisk), (Koldanar)
Hawkeyeop (1) - Menocchio*
Koldanar (1) Drain Bead
Hal Briston (1) - (Millit the Frail), (NAF1138), (bufftabby), Diomedes, (sinjin), (Menocchio)
Millit the Frail (1) - Santo Rugger*, (Hawkeyeop)
sinjin (0) - (Hal Briston), (Pleonast), (Hawkeyeop)
Drain Bead [sub for Idle Thoughts] (0) - (Pleonast), (Menocchio), (Koldanar)
Diomedes (0) - (Hal Briston)
Pleonast (0) - (Darth Sensitive)
hotflungwok (0) - (Blaster Master)

Yet to cast a vote on Day 3:
Freudian Slit

No current vote:
Koldanar


The Day ends at 11AM CST (it is currently 10:54 AM CST).

[NAF1138]

Let DB do what she wants. I think she should post them because she might die toNight, but it's her call.

[Koldanar]

Arg...only one left to vote. And you know what? I don't feel comfortable with any of them. What the hell should I do ?

[NAF1138]

Arg...only one left to vote. And you know what? I don't feel comfortable with any of them. What the hell should I do ?


Vote for who you DO feel comfortable with. If you want to vote for me go for it, I am expendable.

[Darth Sensitive]

Who do you think is scummy?

[MHaye]

Fluiddruid.

You've missed my vote in 1013. It just beat your previous list onto the threadd.

[Koldanar]

Vote for who you DO feel comfortable with. If you want to vote for me go for it, I am expendable.

I hate to do it, but one less person around is one less recruit, as callous as it sounds.

Vote NAF

You yourself posted the list of people likely to be recruited and rather than potentially have you as scum, and really nailing the town, we just have to have someone go :( Sorry to see ya go, but I'm sure glad I won't have you against me.

[Darth Sensitive]

by ny count

dc - 7
naf - 6

[Hawkeyeop]

by ny count

dc - 7
naf - 6

Does that include Koldanar?

[fluiddruid]

Fluiddruid.

You've missed my vote in 1013. It just beat your previous list onto the threadd.Thanks. I've updated.

Final tallies:

dotchan (7) - bufftabby, Hal Briston, Hawkeyeop, NAF1138, Millit the Frail, Darth Sensitive, MHaye
NAF1138 (6) - Blaster Master, sinjin, OneCentStamp, Hotflungwok, (Santo Rugger), Hockey Monkey*, Koldanar
OneCentStamp (3) HazelNutCoffee, (Millit the Frail), chrisk, Pleonast
Menocchio (1) - dotchan, (Drain Bead), (chrisk), (Koldanar)
Hawkeyeop (1) - Menocchio*
Koldanar (1) Drain Bead
Hal Briston (1) - (Millit the Frail), (NAF1138), (bufftabby), Diomedes, (sinjin), (Menocchio)
Millit the Frail (1) - Santo Rugger*, (Hawkeyeop)
sinjin (0) - (Hal Briston), (Pleonast), (Hawkeyeop)
Drain Bead [sub for Idle Thoughts] (0) - (Pleonast), (Menocchio), (Koldanar)
Diomedes (0) - (Hal Briston)
Pleonast (0) - (Darth Sensitive)
hotflungwok (0) - (Blaster Master)

Did not vote:
Freudian Slit

[HazelNutCoffee]

Actually, it seems like we've killed dotchan.

Talk about a lynch out of nowhere.

[fluiddruid]

Verifying vote before Dawn is posted.

[Darth Sensitive]

ToDay was a disaster. I need to run and shower and get to class.

See you on the flip side.

[Darth Sensitive]

Does that include Koldanar?
Yeah - I was refreshing pretty dang fast.

[NAF1138]

I am alive?

[Millit the Frail]

Actually, it seems like we've killed dotchan.

Talk about a lynch out of nowhere.

I voted for her yesterDay at one point, but otherwise yeah.

OK, time for drinks.

[Hal Briston]

ToDay was a disaster....unless Dot comes up as scum, you mean, right?

Note to self: Revist that come dawn.

[Santo Rugger]

Who do you think is scummy?


Fluiddruid.
<snip>

Best sequential posts EVER!

[Rysto]

Verifying vote before Dawn is posted.
Dawn?

[fluiddruid]

Dawn?
Er, Dusk. ;) Sorry, been a bit pre-occupied with making sure the tallies are correct. I believe that they are, as I've crosschecked them. Dusk in a moment...

[fluiddruid]

The sun inevitably sinks below the horizon. Given the flurry of activity just before dusk, the Town is feeling less confident than ever about this vote. But, as they have all agreed, the person with the most votes must go to the gallows.

The quiet dotchan you all knew seemed such an unlikely candidate for a Mafia boss, but the Town wondered if this quietness was purposeful rather than innocent.

Hal Briston and Hawkeyeop lead the unfortunate dotchan up to the stairs. As the Town seems to hold their breath, bufftabby pulls the lever and it is all over in a moment...

dotchan, a Townsperson, is dead.

It is now Night 3. Please have your Night actions in to me by Dawn at Thursday, March 13.

[fluiddruid]

USCDiver will be taking Diomedes' slot as of this point. Welcome aboard!

[bufftabby]

...unless Dot comes up as scum, you mean, right?

Note to self: Revist that come dawn.

Same thing I was thinking. All right, all right, Hal, I think you're town for now. We can team up to either dance our dances of shame or glory, depending on our results of toDay's vote.

[Santo Rugger]

Vote USCDiver.

Oh, wait, not yet. My bad. ;)

[HazelNutCoffee]

Seems like it's going to be SHAME. DANCE OF SHAME. :: cracks whip ::

[Darth Sensitive]

...unless Dot comes up as scum, you mean, right?

Note to self: Revist that come dawn.

Even if. And she just didn't.

I think we blew a lot of covers we shouldn't have had to.

[chrisk]

Okay, so starts the night again. This is the worst time. Oh, and sorry dotchan, nice playin' with ya.

Welcome USCDiver!!

(pours himself something stiff.)

[hotflungwok]

Damn. Poor me a drink.

I hope there's enough booze in town to last. With the bridge out even the mafia can't smuggle it in.

[HazelNutCoffee]

We'll MAKE OUR OWN. 'Cause if the town runs out of booze I guarantee you there's going to be a Psychopath out on the loose before long. :: twitches ::

[fluiddruid]

Another game master note - I'm using my eerie moderator powers to edit the initial posts of the thread for a game summary. You needn't hunt for the most recent vote tally or player list, it's all there. (This gets updated after the thread, though.)

[bufftabby]

Let's do it, Hal. Wiggle wiggle shuffle shuffle, it's the bufftabby dance of shame. It looks remarkably like the way Charlie Brown and friends dance.

[Koldanar]

Well dammit, what a way to end that day. NAF no hard feelings, even though I thought I was hammering? I'll buy two of whatever you're having toNight.

[OneCentStamp]

Let's do it, Hal. Wiggle wiggle shuffle shuffle, it's the bufftabby dance of shame. It looks remarkably like the way Charlie Brown and friends dance.Cool, can I join? I'll be the little dude with the perpetual cloud of filth hovering over him. I liked him.

[NAF1138]

Well dammit, what a way to end that day. NAF no hard feelings, even though I thought I was hammering? I'll buy two of whatever you're having toNight.

No hard feelings. Just becasue you tried to KILL ME! ;)

Really I had it coming, I even told you to vote for me. Besides, its a game, don't take it too seriously.

[Drain Bead]

My head hurts.

[HazelNutCoffee]

My head hurts.
Obviously, it's because you've stopped drinking. The best way to avoid a hangover is to not stop in the first place.

[Koldanar]

No hard feelings. Just becasue you tried to KILL ME! ;)

Really I had it coming, I even told you to vote for me. Besides, its a game, don't take it too seriously.

Bah no, I'm not taking it seriously. If I were, would I have come back for more gaming after my first Day in the Three Kingdoms game? :D

[NAF1138]

Bah no, I'm not taking it seriously. If I were, would I have come back for more gaming after my first Day in the Three Kingdoms game? :D


Good point.

[hotflungwok]

Obviously, it's because you've stopped drinking. The best way to avoid a hangover is to not stop in the first place.
Great, that's what we need, a drunken Mafia game. We'll end up lynching people's pets, bikes, clouds...

[Drain Bead]

Being a pet is a scum tell.

[Blaster Master]

Another non-reasoned last minute lynch. Way to go! :smack:

[Hal Briston]

Being a pet is a scum tell.Cloud, too.

Hey, waitaminute...
I'll be the little dude with the perpetual cloud of filth hovering over him.SCUM!

[OneCentStamp]

SCUM!
Shit. :(

[bufftabby]

Let's not lynch the pets. According to my name, I kinda am a pet. Me-OW!

Who knew cats could dance?

[fluiddruid]

Looks like we're in need of another sub, but I don't have any remaining from my original list. Put the word out, please.

[USCDiver]

Whew, wow... ok I just spent about 2 hours catching up on the ~200 posts since the last time I logged on... I have been keeping up as best as I can with the thread, but I may do a quick re-read of Day 2 and 3 if I can.

Just to give everyone the 'heads up', I work in the ER (I think Diomedes does to, coincidence), which means I sometimes work nights, sometimes weekends, sometimes whenever. So I won't be able to keep up while I'm at work, but when I'm off I should have plenty of time to catch up. The only exception is if I'm working the night shift which means I sleep most of the next day (I got up at 3pm today, ferinstance).

[NAF1138]

Looks like we're in need of another sub, but I don't have any remaining from my original list. Put the word out, please.


I put up a message offboard. See if we get any bites.

Fluid...I hate to ask for modkills but...could this be the last sub? The game is hard enough without trying to track changes in playstyle from player to sub.

[dotchan]

*blinks* What the...I'm lynched already?

Darn it. This definitely goes in my column of "why is it that I look more scummy when playing as Town?" column.

But hey, the good news is, I can't be recruited and give you guys WiFoM headaches! :D

Now this means I get to dedicate all my energies to playing Makai Kingdom... :P

[dotchan]

ETA: Most uncool for lynching me while I wasn't online to defend myself! Most uncool! :P

[Santo Rugger]

ETA: Most uncool for lynching me while I wasn't online to defend myself! Most uncool! :P

We seem to have a habit of doing that*.


*See Kat in your game.

[chrisk]

Uh-oh. I heard a noise just outside... what IS that? :(

[chrisk]

Uh-oh. I heard a noise just outside... what IS that? :(

Fine, don't even answer me. That really helps. :eek:

[OneCentStamp]

Dude, everyone's either passed out drunk, asleep from natural causes, or snooping on each other. Shhh.

[fluiddruid]

Breaking news, we have another substitution.

Dear departed dotchan will be taking the place of Freudian Slit.

[Hawkeyeop]

Breaking news, we have another substitution.

Dear departed dotchan will be taking the place of Freudian Slit.

Yay. We can now lynch her again ;)

[MHaye]

Breaking news, we have another substitution.

Dear departed dotchan will be taking the place of Freudian Slit.I swear that gir's got more lives than a cat. Ah well, that just means another chance to lynch her.

So farewell Freudian Slit, and welcome Freudian.chan.

[Hockey Monkey]

poop.

[Santo Rugger]

Has dotchan subbed in more times, or been lynched more times?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Sorry y'all. I haven't been able to keep up since the first few pages, or I would've tried to step in. :( Yay dot. :)

[NAF1138]

Has dotchan subbed in more times, or been lynched more times?

I think it's neck and neck. Almost all of her subs get lynched...but she usually get's lynched before she subs in. I am gonna have to make a spreadsheet or I won't be able to keep track.

[bufftabby]

Dotchan's back? :gulp: I'm in SO much trouble!

Hey, there, dot, how YOU doin? Uh, don't you look at those vote counts on ya. You don't wanna know! ;)

[dotchan]

Woah, deja vu.

[sinjin]

Woah, deja vu.


All over again, welcome back!

[HazelNutCoffee]

So since she's dead, she can't be recruited, right?

Right?

:: clutches Woodchuck to bosom ::

[Drain Bead]

And now is the part where I start to get nervous.

[bufftabby]

I'm nervous too. I think I threw up in your mouth a little bit.

[HazelNutCoffee]

I'm nervous too. I think I threw up in your mouth a little bit.
Good Lord. What have you two been up tonight?

[bufftabby]

Good Lord. What have you two been up tonight?

Don't worry, there's room for you in the outhouse too. All you gotta do is pee in our butts.

Yeah, I'm gross.

[fluiddruid]

So since she's dead, she can't be recruited, right?

Right?

:: clutches Woodchuck to bosom ::The old dotchan of course can't be... but the new dotchan is Freudian Slit's old role, so would only have any protections of that role.

Bwa ha ha ha ha!

[hotflungwok]

Dammit, I have to go to a stupid all-hands off-site meeting, starting at 11. I won't get out until after 5. I'm going to miss the start of Day 3. I won't know who got capped until almost 6. :(

[Santo Rugger]

Don't worry, there's room for you in the outhouse too. All you gotta do is pee in our butts.

Yeah, I'm gross.

Can I pee in your butts, too?! :D :D :D

[Blaster Master]

Wow, we went straight over the lesbian sexual references and went straight to bizarre and disgusting fetishes. Awesome!

[Darth Sensitive]

So since she's dead, she can't be recruited, right?

Right?

:: clutches Woodchuck to bosom ::

:dubious: Isn't having a woodchuck a subset of pets? :dubious:

[Hockey Monkey]

Don't worry, there's room for you in the outhouse too. All you gotta do is pee in our butts.

Yeah, I'm gross.


The Force is strong with this one.

[Drain Bead]

I leave a Mafia game and come back to Two Girls, One Cup.

[OneCentStamp]

I leave a Mafia game and come back to Two Girls, One Cup.Seriously. The dawn cannot come soon enough to shine its light on this debauchery.

[Santo Rugger]

Seriously. The dawn cannot come soon enough to shine its light on this debauchery.

I'm not sure if more light will help. Well, maybe with my aim, but it won't make things any less disgusting.

[bufftabby]

When I'm drunk in public, I have a disturbing habit of yelling for strangers to pee in my butt. There's also the fun of asking new friends (or new employees at my old job, I'm the best/worst boss ever), "ok, I have a really serious question for you." "Ooo-kay..." "Will you pee in my butt?"

[bufftabby]

Oh and Santo Rugger, you can pee in all my butts!

[Darth Sensitive]

I'm not sure if more light will help. Well, maybe with my aim, but it won't make things any less disgusting.

More so, actually, once we can see.

[sinjin]

Umm ladies, before you so eagerly let Santo piss in your butts maybe you should ask him if his little BR problem ever resolved itself. Can't be too careful these days. Sorry Rugger, just couldn't reisist. :)

[chrisk]

Seriously. The dawn cannot come soon enough to shine its light on this debauchery.

Yeah, I've decided I DON'T want to know what I heard going bump in the night.

:D

[fluiddruid]

Dawn will be slightly delayed due to a work matter. Will be back to post soon.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Noooooo fluiddruid! You must come and stop this peeing-in-butts madness!

[HazelNutCoffee]

:dubious: Isn't having a woodchuck a subset of pets? :dubious:
Woodchuck as in the cider, not the creature. I'm into Woodchucks, not woodchucks.

[bufftabby]

Don't be jealous, HNC, I told you that you can play too! My butt is much like a public restroom.



Did I really just say that? I did take an intarwebs quiz that said I was 88% gross. I think maybe I should get extra percentage points on that.

[Hockey Monkey]

Where is the pukey smiley when you need him? Where?

[Koldanar]

Don't be jealous, HNC, I told you that you can play too! My butt is much like a public restroom.



Did I really just say that? I did take an intarwebs quiz that said I was 88% gross. I think maybe I should get extra percentage points on that.

So tell me...what makes up the 12% that would take you all the way to 100%? I MUST know!

[bufftabby]

koldanar, I think it was my lack of love for bestiality. I love my manimals ridiculously, but not like that. And no, they don't pee in my butt either. Humans only please. That, and I'm just not that into necrophilia. I know, I know, dead girls don't say no, but I have just a touch more self-control than that. Believe it or not. Or else dotchan's corpse woulda been in trouble!



I'm very, very sorry.

[HazelNutCoffee]

vote bufftabby

[Menocchio]

As a physician, I can authoritatively state that bufftabby is nasty.

[Santo Rugger]

koldanar, I think it was my lack of love for bestiality. I love my manimals ridiculously, but not like that. And no, they don't pee in my butt either. Humans only please. That, and I'm just not that into necrophilia. I know, I know, dead girls don't say no, but I have just a touch more self-control than that. Believe it or not. Or else dotchan's corpse woulda been in trouble!



I'm very, very sorry.

So are you going to do her how that she came back to life?

[bufftabby]

I said I was very, very sorry. :(

[fluiddruid]

In the early morning hours, the town is quiet. Eerily quiet. As Dawn breaks, the Townspeople trickle out of their homes and assemble once again in the Town Square. The early morning dew almost makes the statue of Uncle Cecil seem misty-eyed.

The hasty count comes up one short. Worried faces look about as the missing person is identified - chrisk.

A swift search of the Town is organized, but it does not take long. chrisk is found on the steps of his house. He looks like he was strangled, but there is no evidence nearby. A brief search of his belongings reveals a tell-tale collar and The Good Book.

chrisk, a Priest, is dead.

The sun sets on Tuesday, March 18th at 11am CST. Morning results on their way shortly.

[bufftabby]

You guys do realize that I'm not really into watersports, right? RIGHT?!?

[HazelNutCoffee]

Whoa. Dead Priest. Not good.

Okay, I need to go home and have lunch before I have any sort of energy to deal with Day 4.

[Menocchio]

Ouch. I think we're down a vigilante now. Chrisk was on my short list of suspects, and I suspect the vig felt the same.

[Menocchio]

Oh, and Drain, your full investigation results please. We're both playing on borrowed time so there's no point in being cute.

[chrisk]

Wow, bumped off just when things were starting to get interesting!

*clears throat.* Go in peace, my brothers and sisters, and never fail to stand in virtue against the spread of darkness.

::scurries off to say hi to the forbidden thread::

Yay, town!

[NAF1138]

Well, since I survied both a lynch and the Night (a hell of a surprise) I would like to reiterate my request that, at the very least, the rest of the masons come out and claim so we can narrow the pool of suspects down even further.

[Koldanar]

koldanar, I think it was my lack of love for bestiality. I love my manimals ridiculously, but not like that. And no, they don't pee in my butt either. Humans only please. That, and I'm just not that into necrophilia. I know, I know, dead girls don't say no, but I have just a touch more self-control than that. Believe it or not. Or else dotchan's corpse woulda been in trouble!



I'm very, very sorry.


Well you know if you put the body in a warm bath ....
...
...
...
...Was that outloud just now?

[bufftabby]

Ahem. Back to business.

Like Menocchio, I suspect this was a vig kill. So the pool of scum likely increased, unless of course a recruitment was blocked. At least we'll have a better chance of lynching scum this time.

[Hawkeyeop]

Well, since I survied both a lynch and the Night (a hell of a surprise) I would like to reiterate my request that, at the very least, the rest of the masons come out and claim so we can narrow the pool of suspects down even further.

I think we should figure out if we still have a vig before any claiming occurs.

[NAF1138]

I think we should figure out if we still have a vig before any claiming occurs.

Why do we have to do one and then the other? Multiple things can go on at once.

[Menocchio]

Well, since I survied both a lynch and the Night (a hell of a surprise) I would like to reiterate my request that, at the very least, the rest of the masons come out and claim so we can narrow the pool of suspects down even further.
I'll second this. We need to find the boss and fast.

[Menocchio]

I think we should figure out if we still have a vig before any claiming occurs.
Why? If we still have a vig (which I highly doubt), then he too will benefit from a Mason-less kill pool. If not, then at least we get one for today's lynch.

[NAF1138]

Why do we have to do one and then the other? Multiple things can go on at once.

Actually, scratch that. Why do we need to figure out if we have a vig at all? Assume worst case senario, the mafia recruited and there are now 4 of them, and the vig is no more.

Also, fluid does the vig lose his knowing the name of a mafia member power if he turns into a priest? I am guessing yes, but would like to know for sure.

If the answer to the above question is yes, the former vig should claim too. We have no benefit from him not claiming anymore and he becomes a 100% confirmed townie. Something that is more valuable than any power role in the game.

[bufftabby]

Is there any other reason besides the vig turning priest from attempting to kill a priest that I'm not understanding or recalling?

[Drain Bead]

I investigated Koldanar, who is Town.

I also managed to escape recruitment.

[Hawkeyeop]

Why do we have to do one and then the other? Multiple things can go on at once.

The entire point of role claiming was to lessen the pool for the vig. We don't need to lessen the pool for us. People can just role claim before we would lynch them.

[fluiddruid]

Also, fluid does the vig lose his knowing the name of a mafia member power if he turns into a priest? I am guessing yes, but would like to know for sure.Yes. All role changes are total. Same if you become Consigliere - you lose your original powers. So do Capos, though they do gain powers that may be similar to their original power.

A Priested Vig is just a Priest. Any Priested player gets a prayer of their own.

[Menocchio]

If the answer to the above question is yes, the former vig should claim too. We have no benefit from him not claiming anymore and he becomes a 100% confirmed townie. Something that is more valuable than any power role in the game.
I'll second that too. As a priest, he's unrecruitable so the mob can't turn his trustedness against us. As a former vig, he's verifiable... With extreme prejudice.

My only concern is that we're running out of recruitment baffles. But at this point, I think finding the boss is a higher priority.

[NAF1138]

The entire point of role claiming was to lessen the pool for the vig. We don't need to lessen the pool for us. People can just role claim before we would lynch them.


Ok, but that is stupid (sorry Hawk many of your ideas have been good, but you aren't thinking this one through) and it's a good way to get a bad rush lynch at the end of the Day. We want to avoid people claiming right before a lynch, and leverage the power of the mason group toDay early so we have a smaller pool of potential candidates for boss.

[Koldanar]

I'm going to come right out and say hey...I'm the former vig, now priest. 100% town here, and more importantly, I DID NOT KILL the first night. We have a max of 3 mafia out there.

[dotchan]

Claims:
*Pleonast - Priest, Day 2
*Hal - Priest (Bishop-ordained), Day 3
*Drain Bead - Detective, at least one successful investigation, Day 3
*Mennochio - Doctor, Day 3

Other:
*hotflungwok investigated as Town by Drain Bead

Did I miss anything?

Mennochio, I'm guessing that Drain Bead held back her results (assuming she's telling the truth) because she got a power role back on her investigation and she doesn't want to risk outing said power role.

I don't think the vig should claim unless he/she was the one who took a swing at chrisk and fluiddrid confirms that the Vig loses all of his/her Vig powers upon conversion to Priesthood.

The Masons should definitely claim, if not toDay, then toMorrow at the latest. And maybe the Priest(s) too, but I'm not so sure about that one.

[NAF1138]

I'll second that too. As a priest, he's unrecruitable so the mob can't turn his trustedness against us. As a former vig, he's verifiable... With extreme prejudice.

My only concern is that we're running out of recruitment baffles. But at this point, I think finding the boss is a higher priority.

At a certain point we can just start lynching the unconfirmed and we will start taking out the scum really quickly.

[dotchan]

Claims:
*Pleonast - Priest, Day 2
*Hal - Priest (Bishop-ordained), Day 3
*Drain Bead - Detective, at least one successful investigation, Day 3
*Mennochio - Doctor, Day 3

*Koldanar - Priest (former Vig), Day 4

[Menocchio]

I'm going to come right out and say hey...I'm the former vig, now priest. 100% town here, and more importantly, I DID NOT KILL the first night. We have a max of 3 mafia out there.
I'll buy that.

So if we buy all the claims so far we've got
Millit the Frail
NAF1138
Hockey Monkey
bufftabby
USCDiver [sub for Diomedes]
MHaye
Santo Rugger
Blaster Master
Hawkeyeop
HazelNutCoffee
Darth Sensitive
OneCentStamp
dotchan [sub for Freudian Slit after dying on Day 3]
sinjin

Our boss is in there.
(didn't sinjin claim Mason, or am I misremembering?)

[Blaster Master]

First of all, I'm inclined to agree with the initial reaction that it was the Vig who killed Chrisk. The only benefit I can see for scum to kill and pick his is that they'd be pretty sure it wouldn't be blocked, but considering that the scum, even if all of their recruits had been successful, were still hurting in numbers, I just can't imagine they'd take that risk, especially knowing that the Doctor was likely protecting either himself or the outted detective last Night.

I also agree with the reasoning that, if Chrisk was his target, the Vig can claim and convince us with fairly decent certainty. If it wasn't the Vig who did that, and someone claims, the Vig knows he's scum and can kill him tonight. If it was the Vig, but someone else claims, he can counter-claim, and we have a nifty trade-off for a scum. If no one counter-claims, he's either telling the truth, or the new Priestly-Vig isn't paying much attention. Finally, considering that I'm also of the mind that the Vig outted himself inadvertantly yesterday, staying silent only hurts the town, because the scum probably picked it up, if NAF (I think) and I did.

On Preview: I see he's already claimed... So, I'm going to believe it barring a counter-claim.

[Hawkeyeop]

Ok, but that is stupid (sorry Hawk many of your ideas have been good, but you aren't thinking this one through) and it's a good way to get a bad rush lynch at the end of the Day. We want to avoid people claiming right before a lynch, and leverage the power of the mason group toDay early so we have a smaller pool of potential candidates for boss.

There should be a happy medium in there somewhere. People who have votes on them don't need to wait until the last minute to claim. However, I don't think they need to claim right now either. Maybe once a power role has a couple votes on him he should claim? The pool of people we will potentially lynch won't include mason regardless as to when they claim.

[Blaster Master]

Our boss is in there.
(didn't sinjin claim Mason, or am I misremembering?)

Yes, sinjin did claim mason.

[Koldanar]

So, if it was me that you both thought was Vig, what did I do to out that?

[Blaster Master]

There should be a happy medium in there somewhere. People who have votes on them don't need to wait until the last minute to claim. However, I don't think they need to claim right now either. Maybe once a power role has a couple votes on him he should claim? The pool of people we will potentially lynch won't include mason regardless as to when they claim.

This reminds me of a point I wanted to make after last Night. We have WAY too many people waiting WAY too long to get their votes in yesterday. I think we'd stand a much better chance of not having what essentially boils down to a random lynch if we get people's suspicions out there sooner. Lynching people last minute, without giving them a chance to claim and defend themselves is very bad for the town. What if dotchan [Ver. 1] had been a priest, police chief, or some other role that would have made you reconsider your vote if she'd had the opportunity to claim?

So, if you're leaning a certain way, can you try to just put a vote out there, and hopefully with at least a day or two before Nightfall, so we have a chance to evaluate the leaders, rather than having a bandwagon --> claim --> unvote --> repeat cylce going?

As such, I'm going to vote now. I'm still most suspicious of NAF for the very same reasons I was yesterday. The only intervening piece being his "final defense" and his surprise at surviving the Day and Night. Speaking of which, if NAF isn't scum, why should he be surprised at surviving the Night? General strategy of scum says to leave those under suspicion alive, so making a point of being surprised by being alive seems... odd at best.

Vote NAF1138

[bufftabby]

BlaM, why is that surprising? If he felt like he was onto something, and the scum were going to kill him at Night? Or he thought he had an idea of who the vig was, and it was a person suspicious of him?

I'm not precisely arguing with you, I just don't quite see your logic, and I would like to.

[NAF1138]

of which, if NAF isn't scum, why should he be surprised at surviving the Night? General strategy of scum says to leave those under suspicion alive, so making a point of being surprised by being alive seems... odd at best.


I was at least 70% certain that I was going to get vigged after riding the dotchan train to lynchtown. Also, I almost never survive to this point in the game anymore.

You are barking up the wrong tree BlaM, but you would expect me to say that.

Who is your #2?

[Koldanar]

BlaM, why is that surprising? If he felt like he was onto something, and the scum were going to kill him at Night? Or he thought he had an idea of who the vig was, and it was a person suspicious of him?

I'm not precisely arguing with you, I just don't quite see your logic, and I would like to.

Here, I agree. I don't see him at the end as particularly scummy, but rather someone with no valid roleclaim to prevent a lynch / kill, he was fair game. Though if he believed scum recruited day 1, they may have been due a kill. Either way, I don't get the same read from his end of Day activities, nor his surprise toDay.

[Santo Rugger]

Ugh, this is beyond illogical. Come on guys. ROLE CLAIMS MEAN NOTHING! Let's say, for example, that Player A is the Boss. He recruits Player B, who is, say, a Detective. Player A then claims Detective, and allows player B to get lynched, revealing them as scum. This theory is worthless if we don't know the player's original role when they die, though. But if we don't, it sure buys the Boss a LOT of time!

[Santo Rugger]

Never mind, "at death, all truths are revealed". That'd be a stupid move for the Boss to make.

[Hal Briston]

Ok, as I said at dusk, this needs revisiting:

ToDay was a disaster. I need to run and shower and get to class.

See you on the flip side.Ok, it wasn't the best day ever. Several power roles were forced to reveal -- not good, but not the end of the world. What really struck a chord with me was that this was posted after we lynched Dotchan, but before she was revealed to be town -- almost as of Darth Sensitive knew she was going to come up town, and wanted to make sure to get some good townie commiserating going.

I mean, yesterDay wasn't a good day, but it would've gotten a whole helluvalot better if Dot had been reveled to be scum, no?

My guess is that DS is scum who tipped his hat a bit too soon on that one.

Vote Darth Sensitive

[NAF1138]

ok, so people who haven't claimed:

Millit
Hockey
Bufftabby
USC
MHaye
Santo
BlaM
Hawk
HNC
hotflungwok
Darth S
OCS
Dot
NAF

Of that list 7 people were on my top early recruit list.

HM
MHaye
BlaM
Santo
HNC
Dot (Fruidian)
NAF

As of yesterDay the following people were on my own personal, probably not recruited list:

BlaM
Hawk
Santo


So I will take them out of the running for the time being. (Just looking for one of the two scum we had yesterDay)

Of the most likely to be recurited list

HNC and Hockey have been pinging my scumdar most. Just on a gut level.

Of the other list Millit and Darth S have been pinging me the hardest. Again, just on a gut level... so...

I will vote Millit as a swing for picking up the boss.

[NAF1138]

Crap, I forgot about Darths Night post.

unvote Millit

voteDarth Sensitive

[OneCentStamp]

I'm open to him coming back and explaining it, but I agree that that seemed odd and premature. I also don't want to repeat my mistake of the last two days, that of voting late.

I vote Darth Sensitive.

I'm also open to the idea, briefly discussed upthread, of a mass role claim today. I just feel as if the mafia's advantage is growing greater each day, or has so far.

[dotchan]

I thought that he was referring to the fact that we did that whole bandwagon/roleclaim/bandwagon thing. Still, my instincts say at least a FoS Darth Sensitive would be warranted.

Even if the rest of the Masons don't claim toDay, do you guys think it would be to Town's advantage for sinjin to tell us at least how many there are? Scum have tried to fakeclaim Mason in both the Sekham and the Conspiracy games...

[bufftabby]

Yeah, Hal's right. I thought exactly the same thing at the time. Vote Darth Sensitive.

[Hawkeyeop]

I'm also open to the idea, briefly discussed upthread, of a mass role claim today. I just feel as if the mafia's advantage is growing greater each day, or has so far.

Well the mafia's advantage has grown each day. that is how this game works. The question is how would a mass claim help that.

I'm leaning towards voting Hazel. Let me see if I can come with a good reason.

[Hawkeyeop]

Even if the rest of the Masons don't claim toDay, do you guys think it would be to Town's advantage for sinjin to tell us at least how many there are? Scum have tried to fakeclaim Mason in both the Sekham and the Conspiracy games...

I think this is a good idea.

[Koldanar]

You know, I didn't even notice the timing difference between the Darth post and the reveal. Gonna go get my scumdar repaired right now. I'll say strong strong FOS on Darth with intent to vote. I want to hear something from the accused first.

[bufftabby]

Oh, and I'm curious, while we're discussing role claims, is there any advantage to the vanilla folks claiming, or is it just the power roles that anyone cares about claiming anyway?

[OneCentStamp]

Well the mafia's advantage has grown each day. that is how this game works. The question is how would a mass claim help that.
My thought was that there would be enough verifiable claims to winnow out the scum. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Blaster Master]

So, if it was me that you both thought was Vig, what did I do to out that?
You were not the one who I'd thought had outted himself. FWIW, I'd thought the Vig was hotflungwok. I'll have to go back and see if those reads mean something different.

On Preview: I see I missed a flurry of voting during the meeting... oh boy.

[NAF1138]

You were not the one who I'd thought had outted himself. FWIW, I'd thought the Vig was hotflungwok. I'll have to go back and see if those reads mean something different.

On Preview: I see I missed a flurry of voting during the meeting... oh boy.

ditto.

[Santo Rugger]

NAF - Why are the three of us on your PNC list?

[NAF1138]

BlaM because of our interaction yesterDay.

You because you missed almost a whole Day, and I don't think you would have done that had you just been recruited. Not really your style.

Hawk for reasons I honestly don't remember, but that's why I am keeping notes this game. I think it had to do with his beat cop idea, I can't see any pro scum reason for bringing up an idea that will a) probably get him a dose of suspicion and b) might actually make things harder for scum if it is adopted.

Not that scum wouldn't do it, but I can't see why.

[Blaster Master]

I thought that he was referring to the fact that we did that whole bandwagon/roleclaim/bandwagon thing. Still, my instincts say at least a FoS Darth Sensitive would be warranted.

Even if the rest of the Masons don't claim toDay, do you guys think it would be to Town's advantage for sinjin to tell us at least how many there are? Scum have tried to fakeclaim Mason in both the Sekham and the Conspiracy games...

I hadn't noticed the timing of his post, so I'll have to go double check, but I'm of a similar mind that it was a comment on how the Day went. Sure, things COULD have gone well IF dotchan [Ver. 1] had been scum, but in the manor in which the Day was carried out, it would have been just shy of pure dumb luck.

That said, I'm going to go look at it again in context...

[Hockey Monkey]

YesterDay was a complete clusterfuck. I will vote earlier toDay.

[Hawkeyeop]

YesterDay was a complete clusterfuck. I will vote earlier toDay.

Hockey outed herself as a time traveler.

[Hockey Monkey]

Hawkeye, I don't understand what you mean.

[Hal Briston]

Oh, and I'm curious, while we're discussing role claims, is there any advantage to the vanilla folks claiming, or is it just the power roles that anyone cares about claiming anyway?Generally looked at as not being a good idea. It removes them from the pool of good targets for the scum to go after (or makes them better recruitment targets, assuming they're not being protected).

Of course a power role can always claim vanilla, forcing the scum to play WIFOM, but many people feel town lying is too much of a distraction.

Basically, not having the vanillas claim means we know less, but it keeps the scum in the same boat.

[Hal Briston]

Hawkeye, I don't understand what you mean.You meant it as "I will vote earlier toDay than I did yesterDay". The way you wrote it, it sounds like you're planning on zipping back in time to cast a vote.

[Blaster Master]

Well, in context, it looks like Darth Sensitive had his vote on dotchan, so it could stink of extra knowledge, but based on his actual vote post, he didn't seem particularly confident in any of the leading vote-getters. He specifically mentioned not feeling the NAF wagon, but didn't state why. Ditto on the OCS one (though, I can at least guess there, since I felt the same way).

So, Darth, can you perhaps provide more explanation on your vote? Why didn't you feel the NAF vote? What was more convincing about the argument that bufftabby put forth that was lacking in the case against NAF and/or OCS? Did you vote for doctchan thinking she was the scummiest person out there, because she was the scummiest of the vote leaders, or because she was the least townie of the vote leaders?

[Hockey Monkey]

You meant it as "I will vote earlier toDay than I did yesterDay". The way you wrote it, it sounds like you're planning on zipping back in time to cast a vote.

Ah, carry on then. :)

[Drain Bead]

Just in case anyone had any doubts, I can confirm that I got a Vig result on Koldanar. I was a bit confused in that my role description says that I don't get the former results in any case (so I would expect to get Priest) but looking closer, it seems that this is only if my investigation target was Made that night, not made into a priest.

I'm not necessarily feeling the DS thing right now. I guess when I read that I filled in the unstated "up to this point" in his post. At the time he posted, that day WAS a disaster, so I had some sympathy for that comment. I do want to see his answers to BlaM's questions, though.

NAF being surprised that he lived through the night did ping me a bit. Scum tend to leave people alive if they're going to be drawing suspicion, and NAF had been. Again, I'm not sure if this is worth a vote on NAF, but it's certainly worth a FOS.

Another thing I'm curious about is the mini-wagon on OCS. Can those who voted for OCS in that flurry explain their suspicions a bit better?

[OneCentStamp]

Another thing I'm curious about is the mini-wagon on OCS. Can those who voted for OCS in that flurry explain their suspicions a bit better?*pulls up a chair*

I think it started with HazelNutCoffee, who accused me late in the day, two days ago, for semi-lurking. Someone else got lynched that night, and she re-accused me the next day (this is yesterday now), on the basis that "Hey, why not?" A few people eagerly joined in.

I'm open for HNC or anyone else to give me a different interperetation, though.

[HazelNutCoffee]

I voted for OneCentStamp initially because he just happened to be one of several people I noticed a) hadn't been involved in any kind of disagreement or b) hadn't been voted for. I stuck to this theory for yesterDay's vote after seeing how everyone put on the chopping block turned out to be a power role (and for the time being I'm going to assume they are telling the truth). CapnPitt's execution just confirmed what I initially believed - that scum are less likely to make outright scummy statements and more likely to make little slips (Darth Sensitive's thing about yesterDay being a bad Day for town before the results were posted would fall into this category for me).

Hot-headedness is, IMO, usually a sign of town. Scum tend to be very careful about what they post - townies, on the other hand, seem to be more reckless than not, knowing that they are, in a sense, expendable. Now, I'm not saying that scum will always fit this profile. But scum who play the role of indignant townie run a high risk of being lynched, since - as CapnPitt's lynch demonstrated - town is not exactly shy about lynching vanilla townies. Plus, in a game like this where the sheer numbers of town versus scum actually work against the town on some level, it's just easier for scum to hide in plain sight by being as forgettable as possible.

That being said, yesterDay I would have just as happily lynched dotchan as I would have OneCentStamp. Or anyone else on my list, for that matter. ToDay, I'm not so sure.

Re: Mason role claims. I agree with dotchan that sinjin should at least tell us how many Masons there are. Whether the Masons decide to claim or not is up to them, of course. I suppose Masons claiming would narrow the pool of potential scum a bit, but then again a hidden Mason might mean a wasted recruit attempt. I suppose it's somewhat of a WiFoM situation.

[OneCentStamp]

Would someone please define WIFOM for me?

[Millit the Frail]

I jumped on the OCS wagon--it was mainly hotheadedness, frustration that I'd started the misguided wagon on Father Hal, and frustration that the whole vote was coming down to the last minute. I didn't know if I'd have a chance to change it in the morning (which I did, actually), so I wanted to get in another vote, and I didn't feel like starting another misguided bandwagon. So I jumped on HNC's. Believe it or not, it was the middle of the night, and that's all there was to it.

Ditto everyone on wanting the number of Masons.

Glad to see so many voting early and often toDay. That's how we like it in Chicago. :)

(Wait--I meant that last line in the least Mafia-ish way possible! I swear!)

[Blaster Master]

Re: Mason role claims. I agree with dotchan that sinjin should at least tell us how many Masons there are. Whether the Masons decide to claim or not is up to them, of course. I suppose Masons claiming would narrow the pool of potential scum a bit, but then again a hidden Mason might mean a wasted recruit attempt. I suppose it's somewhat of a WiFoM situation.

I cannot support the remaining masons claiming unless they're under suspicion. Their best asset is that they can resist a recruitment thus, once out in the open, they are less likely to be recruited. However, they still only have a 50% chance at resisting a recruitment, so even by having them out in the open, it doesn't mean that we can ever really trust them completely. As more and more recruitables get lynched, the value of an outted mason goes down, because the chance of recruit failure at random will approach, or even surpass, the failure rate of recruiting an outted mason, at which point the scum may decide it is worth the risk and at which point the masons are rendered useless.

However, I again implore the Masons to make their own decision about when to claim based on their own knowledge of who they are and how much they're being suspected. Obviously, that is information I cannot model in any useful way.

[NAF1138]

Would someone please define WIFOM for me?

Wine in front of me. From the Princess Bride. Correctly used it means you are making a play assuming the other team will do something just because they think it is what you think they wouldn't do. (See the iolcane powder sequence from the same movie).

Used incorrectly it just means trying to anticipate what the other player will do. We use it incorrectly most of the time.

[NAF1138]

I cannot support the remaining masons claiming unless they're under suspicion. Their best asset is that they can resist a recruitment thus, once out in the open, they are less likely to be recruited. However, they still only have a 50% chance at resisting a recruitment, so even by having them out in the open, it doesn't mean that we can ever really trust them completely. As more and more recruitables get lynched, the value of an outted mason goes down, because the chance of recruit failure at random will approach, or even surpass, the failure rate of recruiting an outted mason, at which point the scum may decide it is worth the risk and at which point the masons are rendered useless.

However, I again implore the Masons to make their own decision about when to claim based on their own knowledge of who they are and how much they're being suspected. Obviously, that is information I cannot model in any useful way.


The recruitment falir rate is a macguffin. Their best asset in this game is the same as it is in every game, they can confirm each other. IF they do claim it is less likely that any attempt to recruit them will be made, but really this is a good thing. Smaller pool for the scum to hide in.

There is always the chance that one of them has been recruited already, but by keeping them hiden we only increase that chance over the time period where they can accidentally be attempted to be recruited and not fail. A recruited mason is more dangerous than a nonrecruited one is valuable. I would argue that keeping them hidden ups the likleyhood that one WILL get recruited.

[Hawkeyeop]

I cannot support the remaining masons claiming unless they're under suspicion. Their best asset is that they can resist a recruitment thus, once out in the open, they are less likely to be recruited. However, they still only have a 50% chance at resisting a recruitment, so even by having them out in the open, it doesn't mean that we can ever really trust them completely. As more and more recruitables get lynched, the value of an outted mason goes down, because the chance of recruit failure at random will approach, or even surpass, the failure rate of recruiting an outted mason, at which point the scum may decide it is worth the risk and at which point the masons are rendered useless.

However, I again implore the Masons to make their own decision about when to claim based on their own knowledge of who they are and how much they're being suspected. Obviously, that is information I cannot model in any useful way.

Do you oppose Sinjin revealing the amount of masons living?

[Blaster Master]

Would someone please define WIFOM for me?

It stands for Wine in front of me. It comes from the scene in the movie The Princess Bride in which the Man in Black is having the battle of wits with Vizzini. It's a reference to how Vizzini is analyzing the Man in Black and constantly eliminating either cup of wine based upon the reasoning of why he eliminated the other one previously:

"Only a great fool would reach for the cup he was given, so clearly I cannot choose the cup in front of me. But you would have known I was not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the cup in front of me."

This is the same sort of reasoning that goes into a lot of arguments in mafia:

"The Boss would obviously want to recruit someone who is experienced, so clearly we must lynch one of them." "But now the Boss knows that it's obvious he'd want to recruit someone who is experienced, so clearly we should not lynch one of them."

In the end, Vizzini was actually right about both, because both cups were poisoned. And that's exactly the point, WIFOM reasoning is often WAY over thought, and simply ends up being a bunch of circular reasoning that distracts the town because you can never actually reach any sort of viable conclusion.

[Blaster Master]

NETA: That last part of the first quote should be "...so I can clearly not choose the cup in from of you."

[Blaster Master]

Do you oppose Sinjin revealing the amount of masons living?

I just don't see how this information benefits us. If there's only one other mason, then sure, he should say so and they should confirm eachother. Otherwise, especially knowing that the Vig is inactive and we'll only lose one person per Day/Night cycle, there will be at least two tomorrow and they can confirm eachother then.

[quote=NAF1138The recruitment falir rate is a macguffin. Their best asset in this game is the same as it is in every game, they can confirm each other. IF they do claim it is less likely that any attempt to recruit them will be made, but really this is a good thing. Smaller pool for the scum to hide in.

There is always the chance that one of them has been recruited already, but by keeping them hiden we only increase that chance over the time period where they can accidentally be attempted to be recruited and not fail. A recruited mason is more dangerous than a nonrecruited one is valuable. I would argue that keeping them hidden ups the likleyhood that one WILL get recruited.[/quote]

But what good is them confirming eachother if we don't know if they're scum or not? All it really means is that we know they're not the Boss, but beyond that it doesn't tell us for sure if they're trustworthy or not. Knowing they're not the Boss is only useful IF we're suspicious of them and the Boss is not yet dead, that means we should probably not lynch them.

But, as for decreasing their recruitment... let's analyze. An outted mason, if attempted, will have a 50% success rate. An un-outted mason will be recruited at a lower success rate of M / [2 *(N - S)] which is upper bounded 50% because |M| is a subset of |N - S|. Further, by having them in the unconfirmed pool, sure they COULD be recruited, but it also increases the failure rate of a random recruitment attempt which may persuade scum to attempt a kill over a recruitment which is more likely to succeed but not as harmful to the town.

[Blaster Master]

NETA: BAH! I fail at closing my quote tag!

[Darth Sensitive]

Ok. Here goes.

Out of the three people who looked likely to be lynched, I thought NAF was the most townie. Though brutal, his "lynch daily, vig nightly" plan has a not bad chance of getting scum early on, and will, as he said, narrow the pool down where scum can hide and recruit from.

I flat out didn't get the OneCentStamp wagon. I think it was started by HNC, doubled up on by MtF, and Chrisk, and Pleo without any reasoning as to scumitude, just maybe-kinda lurking.

Dotchan Mk. 1 - The best case out of any that Day. But that isn't saying much. She had a flurry of posting on pages 16 and 17. And no posting / defense until after the lynch on page 22. She didn't ping scumdar, but she was the least townie.

My post nightfall comments were just repeating what people had said about it being a charlie foxtrot of a day. Had dcmk1 been scum, it would have been a Dunkirk level disaster. Pretty sucky overall, but we didn't totally screw the pooch. As it was, it was on the level of Stalingrad. Either way, bad play.

[Darth Sensitive]

Would someone please define WIFOM for me?

Psst! Post 370! (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9523142&postcount=370)

(With video!)

And I really should be finishing up my school work before spring break - should be back to full speed by Monday at the latest, with intermittent play before then.

[NAF1138]

Further, by having them in the unconfirmed pool, sure they COULD be recruited, but it also increases the failure rate of a random recruitment attempt which may persuade scum to attempt a kill over a recruitment which is more likely to succeed but not as harmful to the town.

I will sum up the snipped part by saying I disagree and we can leave it at that. But the above is interesting and something I hadn't considered.

Anyway, I think I have said all I can say about the claming thing and won't press it any further.

[NAF1138]

I will sum up the snipped part by saying I disagree

NETA: Actually, I disagre on the non math portion, and don't really follow the math. I like that you post it, BlaM, but I don't pretend to be able to follow it.

[Hockey Monkey]

I think the masons should not mass claim at this time. When there are only two left however, they should claim and confirm each other. Anyone claiming mason in the meantime should be believed unless there is a counter-claim. If someone does lie about being a mason, a true mason should speak up immediately. That's my two cents worth.

[HazelNutCoffee]

Right now I'm painstakingly going through Day 2's posts and drawing up an outline. Mostly for my own benefit, but I will post the results once I finish. But for the moment I'm going to

vote Darth Sensitive

because, as I stated above, I believe the pre-mature despair comment WAS indeed a scum "slip" (as opposed to all those "outright scummy statements" we've all been getting our panties in a twist over). Also, I just explained my reasoning for voting for OCS and Darth has summed it up thusly:

I flat out didn't get the OneCentStamp wagon. I think it was started by HNC, doubled up on by MtF, and Chrisk, and Pleo without any reasoning as to scumitude, just maybe-kinda lurking.
You want to disagree with my reasoning, be my guest - but insinuating that I had no reasoning at all is what I consider a "smudge." Smudges = scummy in my book.

[NAF1138]

I think the masons should not mass claim at this time. When there are only two left however, they should claim and confirm each other. Anyone claiming mason in the meantime should be believed unless there is a counter-claim. If someone does lie about being a mason, a true mason should speak up immediately. That's my two cents worth.


Masons are recuritable Hockey. That sort of strategy won't work in this game.

[Pleonast]

Trying to catch up.

I think the Masons should not reveal their number. Knowing their number actually makes it easier to fake claim.

Instead, Masons should claim when they are under lynch threat. An already-claimed Mason can then confirm or not. When there's just one unclaimed Mason, that Mason can reveal.

Another reason they should not claim unless they need to: it is useful to try to recruit a claimed Mason. Recruiting an unclaimed player risks hitting an unrecruitable. But a Mason has a 50% chance to be recruited. You may think that's not good, but then when they have a Mason the Boss gets: 1) knowledge of all the other Masons, and 2) a 100% chance of recruiting one of them.

That makes claimed Masons as trustable as any other recruitable role.

Hmm, on second thought, it may be better for the Masons to all claim. Imagine this scenario: the claimed Mason gets recruited (Capo'd). They then recruit another Mason. The Mafia will then have 2 out of N Masons. This sets up a great opportunity for either 1) false claims, 2) refused confirmations.

Got to think more on it.

[Menocchio]

Re The Masons: I now feel that they should remain hidden until they need to prevent their own lynching (unless there's only one more, then they should claim). They shouldn't be very reluctant to out themselves in that case though. F'rex, if Darth Sensitive were a mason, he should consider claiming right now.

As for Darth Sensitive, I'm not feeling it. Did anyone really believe that dotchan was scum? She was the best choice presented and I can't fault him for voting that way and still feeling pessimistic about the day.

So for the moment I'm voting NAF1138. He and Blaster Master are by far the shining stars in this game and that makes me suspicious. With myself and Drain exposed they had a great chance to grab either of them last night. Why start with NAF and not Blaster? I'm not sure. It's just a gut thing.

[USCDiver]

Hello all. I've been keeping up and trying to get a grip on everything that's happened that last couple of Days (I'm not spending too much time on Day 1, understandably). I see that there has been a little bit of suspicion on Darth Sensitive for his Twilight post. It does seem like 'extra knowledge' but at the same time, I was having the same thoughts as I watched the Day end, 'What a fucked up Day'. But I got to thinking, lynching Vanilla Townies is not necessarily a bad thing at this point. Scum are relatively rare, still. Power roles are going to universally claim when they're on the line. And all that's left for Town to lynch is Vanilla Townies.

From my count, (assuming estimates for some roles) and starting with 24 players we began the game with:
1 Detective
1 Doctor
1 Vig (now Priest)
3 Masons (assumption)
2 Priests (assumption)
1 Bishop
2 Beat Cops (assumption)
1 Police Chief
1 Boss

That's 13 Defined roles leaving 11 Vanilla Townies. We're down 3 Townspeople and 1 Vig (no net loss of Priest after chrisk's death).

Assuming recruitment attempts on Nights 2 and 3 (worse case scenario both successful), we now have 12 Defined roles and 8 Townies with 3 scum mixed amongst them.

(Please note, my assumptions on role numbers is my own gut feeling only and not based on any facts).

Next topic: my take on the Mason role claim is that it is not a good idea. The Mason know the identities of their fellow Masons but as far as I can tell from the rules, they would NOT know if one of their brethren has been recruited (successfully or not). The normal value of Masons is their ability to mutually confirm each other, but with this game, that value is gone.

[Santo Rugger]

I think the Masons should claim now, while the maximum percentage are still on our side. Otherwise, as Pleo and NAF are saying, it sets up way too many possibilities for false claims later.

[dotchan]

I think the Masons should not reveal their number. Knowing their number actually makes it easier to fake claim.

Really? Why?

[NAF1138]

Next topic: my take on the Mason role claim is that it is not a good idea. The Mason know the identities of their fellow Masons but as far as I can tell from the rules, they would NOT know if one of their brethren has been recruited (successfully or not). The normal value of Masons is their ability to mutually confirm each other, but with this game, that value is gone.

No, that is exactly WHY they need to claim and claim now. They are useless to us at best and much more dangerous at worst if we don't know who we are.

[MHaye]

As far as the Masons mass-claiming goes, I'm not keen to see them rush out and claim, because once made a claim cannot really be withdrawn. It's a minor Rubicon.

Whether the claim is made right now or Tuesday morning may not make much difference as far as the game goes - so Masons, take your time. There's no great hurry, really. Unless the vote pressure builds up, of course.

[sinjin]

Drain Bead, I'm confused. Idol investigated hotflungwok Night 1. Yesterday you said you investigated someone Night 2 who turned up town but didn't tell us who you investigated. In post 1128 after being asked for full disclosure you indicate you investigated Koldanar who turned up town and btw avoided recruitment. But then in 1171 you said you were surprised that Koldanar was returned as the Vig.

Post 1128 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9574016&postcount=1128)I investigated Koldanar, who is Town.

I also managed to escape recruitment.
POST 1171 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9574627&postcount=1171)Just in case anyone had any doubts, I can confirm that I got a Vig result on Koldanar. I was a bit confused in that my role description says that I don't get the former results in any case (so I would expect to get Priest) but looking closer, it seems that this is only if my investigation target was Made that night, not made into a priest.

This is not full disclosure, which you promised us yesterDay in order to stay alive. You have given us the results for only two Nights. Also was a recruitment attempt made on you and rebuffed or are you just reassuring us that you are still on our side? Clarification please.

Note to all on the mason front. I'm not going to come out with numbers for awhile. I need to think about this. Also I will be traveling most of the day tomorrow and again on Monday. But will be around on the weekend and on Tuesday AM.

[USCDiver]

I was just re-reading through Yesterday and came across this post by Santo Rugger

WTF? I give up. Boss, please recruit me tonight so I have a chance of winning this one. I don't have any powers that'll keep me from being recruited.

This was during the flurry of Role Claims. It certainly made me raise my eyebrows, but it seems to have gone unchallenged by the group. It can be read two ways. One, it could be an innocent expression of frustration during a particularly tough point in the game. Or it could be a calculated response meant to throw off any suspicion he garners later in the game. FOS on Rugger for this throw away post.

[Drain Bead]

Drain Bead, I'm confused. Idol investigated hotflungwok Night 1. Yesterday you said you investigated someone Night 2 who turned up town but didn't tell us who you investigated. In post 1128 after being asked for full disclosure you indicate you investigated Koldanar who turned up town and btw avoided recruitment. But then in 1171 you said you were surprised that Koldanar was returned as the Vig.

Post 1128 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9574016&postcount=1128)
POST 1171 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9574627&postcount=1171)

This is not full disclosure, which you promised us yesterDay in order to stay alive. You have given us the results for only two Nights. Also was a recruitment attempt made on you and rebuffed or are you just reassuring us that you are still on our side? Clarification please.

Note to all on the mason front. I'm not going to come out with numbers for awhile. I need to think about this. Also I will be traveling most of the day tomorrow and again on Monday. But will be around on the weekend and on Tuesday AM.

I didn't say I was surprised that Koldanar came back as the Vig, I said I was confused (after his roleclaim, obviously), and then I re-read my role description. You can read it too, including the final parenthetical, and hopefully see from whence my confusion came. I can confirm that I got a Vig result on Koldanar, though.

I am keeping the results of my first investigation (MY first investigation, not Idle's) silent because I think full disclosure on that point will harm us more than help us. I'd go into more detail but I would only be helping the scum.

As far as whether a recruitment attempt was made, I think the rules state that I wouldn't know it. I'm not sure what happened in the massive WIFOM game that I'm certain took place between the scum and our protective power roles. If someone was protecting me, thanks much. If not, the scum didn't go my way.

Speaking of the scum not going my way, I completely agree with Menocchio's point about how NAF and BlaM were prime targets for recruitment last night. I just disagree with which one. I think BlaM would have been a great target--he's built up a lot of townie cred and can confuse the crap out of people with math if he chooses to.

[sinjin]

Drain Bead;

Fine, I'm still confused though. When I initially read the first post ref'd above I thought Koldanar was your investigation on your first night and the missed recruit occurred last night and somehow precluded you from investigating. Now it's clear you still don't want to talk about your first investigation.

Drain Bead (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9563811&postcount=894)
Here's my plan, although I'll need the Doc's help for it.

The Doc keeps me alive every night. The Night (or Day, I guess) the Doc dies, I die the next Day, no matter what I say. Until then, I make each investigation result public, on a town or scum basis. I'll keep roles secret unless they absolutely do not mesh with a stated claim (aka there's a possibility that they could be the Boss).
Underlining mine. :confused: How does saying you found someone town or scum help scum? Scum already know. I know I'm probably again missing something simple.

[Drain Bead]

sinjin, it's not that you're missing something simple, it's that if I go into it in great detail, it will essentially telegraph info to the scum. Mind you, I'm wondering if they already got it, but hopefully everyone else but me and the person I investigated is as lost as you are. ;-)

If it comes down to either me or that person potentially dying because I haven't revealed, I'll come forward. Until then, I just ask that you have faith in my judgment on this one, that there is no good town-helpful reason for me to talk about it at this point. My job is to find the Boss. I haven't yet.

[dotchan]

I'm willing to believe Drain Bead for the moment - I did something similar in the off-board Firefly game believing that withholding information meant I could keep a pro-Town player safe and I could confirm his rolename should he choose to claim.

[hotflungwok]

I'm trying to decide if the Darth Sensitive thing was really a scum tell. It does look suspicious.

If it comes down to either me or that person potentially dying because I haven't revealed, I'll come forward. Until then, I just ask that you have faith in my judgment on this one, that there is no good town-helpful reason for me to talk about it at this point. My job is to find the Boss. I haven't yet.
And how did you know you wouldn't die last night? I can kind of understand you saying that withholding this information for now is better than revealing it, but I'm not really happy with it.

[fluiddruid]

Darth Sensitive (5): Hal Briston, NAF1138, OneCentStamp, bufftabby, HazelNutCoffee
NAF1138 (2): Blaster Master, Menocchio
Millit the Frail (0): (NAF1138)

No vote yet:

Millit the Frail
Hockey Monkey
USCDiver [sub for Diomedes]
Drain Bead [sub for Idle Thoughts]
MHaye
Santo Rugger
Pleonast
Koldanar
Hawkeyeop
Hotflungwok
Darth Sensitive
dotchan [sub for Freudian Slit after dying on Day 3]
sinjin

The sun sets on Tuesday, March 18th at 11am CST.

[Hawkeyeop]

Hot-headedness is, IMO, usually a sign of town. Scum tend to be very careful about what they post - townies, on the other hand, seem to be more reckless than not, knowing that they are, in a sense, expendable. Now, I'm not saying that scum will always fit this profile. But scum who play the role of indignant townie run a high risk of being lynched, since - as CapnPitt's lynch demonstrated - town is not exactly shy about lynching vanilla townies. Plus, in a game like this where the sheer numbers of town versus scum actually work against the town on some level, it's just easier for scum to hide in plain sight by being as forgettable as possible.


This is the big mistake I made during my first game. Players made argument that were based on faulty logic. I translated bad logic into scumminess. You made an argument that does not pass the rules of logic, I thought you were trying to mislead the town. What I discovered was that this wasn't remotely true. Town members were desperate to find scum. Anything could be a potential giveaway, and they were much more likely to make arguments that did not make sense, because they knew they could be right. If they were going to be voted out, they would vote for anyone else, because anyone else was more likely to be scum than they were. Scum didn't go out a limb. They didn't make last ditch efforts to stay alive. They knew exactly were they sat, so they could behave more logically than emotionally.

With that mind I'm going to completely about face and

vote Naf

On the offboard game he was desperate to win. He nearly gave things away in the game he was modding in order to have a better chance at winning. He didn't win that game. Yet somehow now he willing to just accept being lynched without putting up a fight? Where did the desperation go? This seems like a significant change in demeanor.

Some other things that jump out. The godfather lynched day one. This was a risky and illogical play. I don't think a rookie godfather makes that play, nor do I believe someone who would go by the numbers. It would have to be someone who was confident enough in their abilities to go against the numbers in order to mislead the town. I think Naf could fit that profile.

Naf made a list of possible targets for the godfather. That is a lot effort put into to thinking what he would do in that situation. The person most likely to think about what the godfather would do is the godfather.

I haven't thought Naf was scum before, so I'm going to reread to see if this new theory jibes with his past actions. There is no point to FOSing here though, so I'll leave my vote on him, until I have a better lead.

[Pleonast]

I think the Masons should not reveal their number. Knowing their number actually makes it easier to fake claim.Really? Why?Because it's a piece of information the Masons have that the Mafia doesn't. It lets the Mafia know what they're up against for a false claim. It makes it easier to find the Masons from slips (it can be very hard for Masons to treat other Masons as unknowns). In this game, the number without names tells the Mafia how big a prize recruiting the claimed Mason is.

Information is valuable. Townies with additional information have to balance the what the Town as a whole could gain from revelation versus what the Mafia would gain. Sometimes, revealing lets the Town coordinate and become more effective at rooting out scum. Sometime it makes it easier for the scum.

It's even risky for us to talk about it. Masons could accidentally reveal themselves with their opinions about whether Masons should reveal now or later. It's safe for me (or any other claimed) to talk, since we all know I'm not a Mason. For everyone else, there's risk. For example, even if no Mason talked about Masons revealing, the Mafia could look for players avoiding discussing it. We really need to be cautious about discussing pro-Town power roles.

By the way, as long as we trust Drain, we need to trust her decision not to reveal a finding. And if you don't trust her, you're not going to believe what she says anyway.

[NAF1138]

On the offboard game he was desperate to win. He nearly gave things away in the game he was modding in order to have a better chance at winning. He didn't win that game. Yet somehow now he willing to just accept being lynched without putting up a fight? Where did the desperation go? This seems like a significant change in demeanor.




I still want to win, I just think that this time around winning means I need to die. If my death lends trust and creedence to my arguments then it was for the best. Unfortunatly now that we have lost the vig the situation changes a little, but I am not sure how. I was hoping that the vig would take care of the folks on the must die list.* These people still need to die, but we have to find the boss first now, which is harder. If you think that is a change in demeanor, you haven't been paying attention. Unfortunatly, I don't have a better idea for finding the boss right away than a mass claim. The more people we can get confirmed as "not the boss" right away, the faster we can find the boss, we can then take care of the recruits. I am sorry I didn't think of it sooner, and I am sorry I am not more persuasive in my arguments, and that I don't have the math to back me up. But it just seems logical to me that if we can eliminate a large number of players from contention as the boss, we will have an easier time picking the boss out.

If someone has a better idea let me know, but at this point every Day that goes by where we don't find the boss things get harder for the town.



*That is why I thought I wouldn't survive the Night, I thought I would get vigged. If I was the vig, the first person I would have taken out would be the person who suggested that an entire group of people should be killed and then put themselves on the kill list.

[Menocchio]

No vote yet:

Millit the Frail
Hockey Monkey
USCDiver [sub for Diomedes]
Drain Bead [sub for Idle Thoughts]
MHaye
Santo Rugger
Pleonast
Koldanar
Hawkeyeop
Hotflungwok
Darth Sensitive
dotchan [sub for Freudian Slit after dying on Day 3]
sinjin
Let's see some votes up, people. You can change it later if you need to.

[Hawkeyeop]

Let's see some votes up, people. You can change it later if you need to.

How bout 3 posts up?

[Blaster Master]

Because it's a piece of information the Masons have that the Mafia doesn't. It lets the Mafia know what they're up against for a false claim. It makes it easier to find the Masons from slips (it can be very hard for Masons to treat other Masons as unknowns). In this game, the number without names tells the Mafia how big a prize recruiting the claimed Mason is.

Information is valuable. Townies with additional information have to balance the what the Town as a whole could gain from revelation versus what the Mafia would gain. Sometimes, revealing lets the Town coordinate and become more effective at rooting out scum. Sometime it makes it easier for the scum.

It's even risky for us to talk about it. Masons could accidentally reveal themselves with their opinions about whether Masons should reveal now or later. It's safe for me (or any other claimed) to talk, since we all know I'm not a Mason. For everyone else, there's risk. For example, even if no Mason talked about Masons revealing, the Mafia could look for players avoiding discussing it. We really need to be cautious about discussing pro-Town power roles.

I couldn't agree more, which is why I keep saying we should leave it up to the Masons. For instance, if someone who is unclaimed keeps saying masons should claim, then either they believe that and aren't a mason, or they are, are lying about what they think masons should do, and potentially poisoning the well for when they eventually claim. So please, if you haven't convinced them to come out yet, then you're not going to. They've seen the arguments for both sides and will do what they think is appropriate.

By the way, as long as we trust Drain, we need to trust her decision not to reveal a finding. And if you don't trust her, you're not going to believe what she says anyway.

On further reflection, I agree. I've come up with at least a couple of scenarios where it is to the town's advantage for her not to reveal her investigation results or, at the very least, has the appearance of being to the town's advantage such that I wouldn't blame her for not revealing. Until we have a reason to doubt her claim, particularly when the decision not to reveal all of her investigations was made on the same Day as her claim, thus not allowing a recruitment opportunity to potentially intervene and alter her motives, we should trust that her motivations behind that decision were pro-town.

[USCDiver]

Ok, since we now know that there was a Boss kill on Night 1 and not a Vig kill, I went back and re-read the first half of that day (prior to everyone jumping on CapnPitt). There were two players, NAF1138 and Hawkeyeop who were consistently arguing towards a Vig kill as opposed to what we now know is the truth.

In particular this post by NAF:
Go ahead and say it...if scum did the kill, scum were idiots. I can see a compelling case being made for a vig kill but not for the scum doing the kill.
for some reason comes across to me as trying to dissuade the town from even considering that the Boss might have killed.

So for now I'm going to
vote NAF1138

[hotflungwok]

I'm not sure enough about the Darth Sensitive thing, I thought that day was a disaster even before the lynching result was announced. Odds were we were going to lynch a townie, and I wasn't holding out much hope. It could be a slip, but I don't think so.

I voted for him before, and those reasons still stand up. With new information it just reinforces it.

vote NAF1138[/QUOTE]

[fluiddruid]

Darth Sensitive (5): Hal Briston, NAF1138, OneCentStamp, bufftabby, HazelNutCoffee
NAF1138 (5): Blaster Master, Menocchio, Hawkeyeop, USCDiver [sub for Diomedes], Hotflungwok
Millit the Frail (0): (NAF1138)

No vote yet:

Millit the Frail
Hockey Monkey
Drain Bead [sub for Idle Thoughts]
MHaye
Santo Rugger
Pleonast
Koldanar
Darth Sensitive
dotchan [sub for Freudian Slit after dying on Day 3]
sinjin

The sun sets on Tuesday, March 18th at 11am CST.

Game master note: I will be away from my computer during much of Saturday afternoon and evening. During that time, no vote counts will be posted.

[NAF1138]

Ok, I will mount only a single defense of myself and then let myself get lynched. I don't want to become this game's brewha.

Before I do, would someone mind actually presenting a case for my lynch. I haven't noticed one. BlaM sorta kinda presented one, and everyone else has more or less said a variation of "I don't know if he is scum, but he sure talks a lot."

Once someone has presented a real case against me I will post my defense. I would like to get this over with earlier in the Day rather than later if possible.

Also, for those voting for my lynch, have you asked yourself how I am helping the scum here? For those of you who think that the scum might have recruited me last Night...are you insane? I almost got lynched yesterDay. I will probably be killed very soon, how am I still a good get for the scum?

If you think I am the boss or was a Night 2 recruit, that is different. And I would ask you to please acutally state a case. I will defend myself, and then move on. People can vote for me or not from that point forward.

[USCDiver]

Ok, I'll give it a go:

Also, for those voting for my lynch, have you asked yourself how I am helping the scum here?

See above. On my re-read of Day 2, knowing what we know now (namely there was NOT a Vig kill on Night 1), I am more suspicous of the players who were adamant that it HAD to have been a Vig kill. There was a lot of confusion that day as to what happened. I was merely a spectator that Day, and I'll admit I assumed it was the Vig, but I was open to the possibility it wasn't.

For those of you who think that the scum might have recruited me last Night...are you insane? I almost got lynched yesterDay. I will probably be killed very soon, how am I still a good get for the scum?

Of all the people who were on the chopping block yesterday, you didn't claim a role. To me that means you are either already scum or you are a Townsperson. If you are a Townsperson then you are a guanteed safe recruit. So while it might not have been a good idea to recruit you because you 'almost got lynched' we've already seen the Boss do unconventional things by killing on Night 1.

[Blaster Master]

Ok, I will mount only a single defense of myself and then let myself get lynched. I don't want to become this game's brewha.

Before I do, would someone mind actually presenting a case for my lynch. I haven't noticed one. BlaM sorta kinda presented one, and everyone else has more or less said a variation of "I don't know if he is scum, but he sure talks a lot."

Once someone has presented a real case against me I will post my defense. I would like to get this over with earlier in the Day rather than later if possible.

Also, for those voting for my lynch, have you asked yourself how I am helping the scum here? For those of you who think that the scum might have recruited me last Night...are you insane? I almost got lynched yesterDay. I will probably be killed very soon, how am I still a good get for the scum?

If you think I am the boss or was a Night 2 recruit, that is different. And I would ask you to please acutally state a case. I will defend myself, and then move on. People can vote for me or not from that point forward.

FTR, I think it's unlikely that you're the boss, but your behavior and motivations did seem to change after Night 2 as I stated earlier (I won't bother to restate my case, since it should be fairly prominent in the public mind).

Also, I don't understand your reasoning behind thinking you would get Vigged. You indicated that you thought the Vig was hotflungwok, which would imply you would have thought he would have Vigged you. Considering his and my lengthy discussion regarding the Vig, I couldn't have seen him targetting you, I would have expected him to not target anyone last Night. The expectation of being Vigged looks more to me like a post hoc explanation for your feigned surprise being called out.

That said, I would be interested to hear your explanation for why you would have thought he would have targetted you.


Also, fluiddruid, not to be petty, but you do mean 11AM CDT not CST, right? So, it's still 1 hour behind EDT?

[NAF1138]

That said, I would be interested to hear your explanation for why you would have thought he would have targetted you.



ahem

*That is why I thought I wouldn't survive the Night, I thought I would get vigged. If I was the vig, the first person I would have taken out would be the person who suggested that an entire group of people should be killed and then put themselves on the kill list.

[Blaster Master]

Of all the people who were on the chopping block yesterday, you didn't claim a role. To me that means you are either already scum or you are a Townsperson. If you are a Townsperson then you are a guanteed safe recruit. So while it might not have been a good idea to recruit you because you 'almost got lynched' we've already seen the Boss do unconventional things by killing on Night 1.

As I said, I'm inclined to believe NAF was recruited on Night 2; however, assuming he wasn't, the fact that he was on the block yesterday, as you mention, does not preclude a recruitment attempt.

In the past, we've had someone on the chopping block, seen sufficient defense, and the next Day treated them as pretty much confirmed (see Queuing from M2).

Considering that, unlike previous games, the Boss gets unlimited recruitments, he may also deliberately select someone to deliberately discredit them. Say NAF WAS accurate about some of his analysis or something, a subsequent recruitment, followed by a lynch, would leave us not knowing exactly when he was recruited, and thus unable to trust him, particularly since we'd find it hard to believe the Boss would recruit someone who was in such trouble of being.

Now, all of that said, of course, I just can't see the Boss doing that, even now knowing that he is the one who killed on Night One, I just can't see that as a likely move because what he'd be giving up a lot and not really gaining much.

[NAF1138]

Say NAF WAS accurate about some of his analysis or something


Ouch. And after I said all those nice things about you!

[Blaster Master]

ahem

I saw that. What I'm curious about is that inside the context of your thought that hotflungwok was who you thought the Vig was. Inside of that context, I would have expected him not to target anyone. Further, hotflungwok had his vote on you, him targetting you would have probably led the scum to believe that the Vig was one of those on your wagon, which would have made him a lot easier to spot. Obviously, you disagree with that because you're surprised the he didn't kill you, and I want to know why.

But to address that point specifically, without regard to whom the Vig was (since we were obviously wrong), it wouldn't make sense for the Vig to kill someone who is already highly suspected and will likely be lynched the next Day anyway. I would much more expect the Vig to target someone he suspects, but can't make a solid enough case against, or at least someone that wouldn't blatantly give him away.

[NAF1138]

But to address that point specifically, without regard to whom the Vig was (since we were obviously wrong), it wouldn't make sense for the Vig to kill someone who is already highly suspected and will likely be lynched the next Day anyway. I would much more expect the Vig to target someone he suspects, but can't make a solid enough case against, or at least someone that wouldn't blatantly give him away.

Why not? Isn't that part of what the vig is there for? And after yesterDay I felt like hotflungwok might have felt I slipped the noose too easily and might not get lynched. Add that in addition to all the stuff about my kill list and, like I said, that would have been my play.

[NAF1138]

might have felt I slipped the noose too easily and might not get lynched.

NETA:That is a bit hard to parse.

Might not get lynched the next Day.

[Blaster Master]

Ouch. And after I said all those nice things about you!

Okay, perhaps I was a little harsh there because the implication that you were completely wrong was not intentional. Primarily, my point was that if there was something specific about which you were right, that may be a methodology the Boss would employ to discredit it. But to reiterate, I don't think that's the case because I think you were already recruited on Night 2 and, even if you weren't, I'd be hard pressed to believe the Boss would be willing to take even such a bold risk expecting you to get lynched, because that little amount of information, whatever it may or may not have been, would be difficult to believe it would be worth giving up a two person swing (that another recruit would have been, along with what would have been a townie lynch).

[Blaster Master]

Why not? Isn't that part of what the vig is there for? And after yesterDay I felt like hotflungwok might have felt I slipped the noose too easily and might not get lynched. Add that in addition to all the stuff about my kill list and, like I said, that would have been my play.

Here's the point. He'd seemed to admit that he was responsible for OAOW's death. The Vig had been berated on Day Two by the town believing he had done it. Thus, when he seemed to confess that he made no attempt on the second Night, I would have thought he'd decided it was not in the town's best interest to carry on Vigging people. Do you really think he would have Vigged you, after that, and my discussion with him, especially considering that his vote for you was not only less than enthralled, but also an arrow pointed back to him (or at least one of those of us voting for you). That is, he seemed for vote for you, not because he necessarily thought you were scummy, but because he didn't get the other option of OCS. I just can't see that as anything other than a high probability that he likely wouldn't have killed anyone last Night and that, if he did, his suspicions were obviously elsewhere and he was unwilling to express them so that the kill wouldn't be traced back to him.

[bufftabby]

Not that anyone especially cares, but I just don't see the case against NAF based on his comment about being alive. If I had received a vote from the person I thought was the Vig, and then escaped lynching, I would be concerned for my life as well. Now, I don't think this exonerates him, but I don't see how it condemns him either.

[Blaster Master]

Not that anyone especially cares, but I just don't see the case against NAF based on his comment about being alive. If I had received a vote from the person I thought was the Vig, and then escaped lynching, I would be concerned for my life as well. Now, I don't think this exonerates him, but I don't see how it condemns him either.

This is not the entirety of the case. Please go back to yesterday and review the posts immediately prior to and including my vote for him.

As for this, it's not the point that he was voted for by the person who he thought was the Vig. It's that, just because someone is the Vig and votes for you, it doesn't mean your life is necessarily in any danger. Considering he thought hotflungwok was the Vig, like I did, then he would have also interpretted those posts to mean he likely wasn't going to kill. Combine that with hotflungwok's less than enthralled vote, and I just can't see him killing NAF.


Further, NAF's initial reasoning had nothing to do with hotflungwok and was entirely about his list and how he was on it. That reasoning was stated today AFTER he had already confirmed he thought hotflungwok was the Vig yesterday. Leaving out the context of who he thought the Vig was, especially after it's in the open, makes it seem much more like post hoc reasoning, otherwise he could have put more specifics behind his reasoning rather than remaining vaguely general when it just doesn't hold up under the scrutiny of the context of the individual that he thought was the Vig.

[bufftabby]

Thank you for clarifying, BlaM. I see where you are coming from now. Not sure yet if I quite think it's scummy or not, but I do see the basis of your argument now. It's not as though I haven't been paying attention; some of the subtler things go over this newb's head.

[NAF1138]

Here's the point. He'd seemed to admit that he was responsible for OAOW's death. The Vig had been berated on Day Two by the town believing he had done it. Thus, when he seemed to confess that he made no attempt on the second Night, I would have thought he'd decided it was not in the town's best interest to carry on Vigging people. Do you really think he would have Vigged you, after that, and my discussion with him, especially considering that his vote for you was not only less than enthralled, but also an arrow pointed back to him (or at least one of those of us voting for you). That is, he seemed for vote for you, not because he necessarily thought you were scummy, but because he didn't get the other option of OCS. I just can't see that as anything other than a high probability that he likely wouldn't have killed anyone last Night and that, if he did, his suspicions were obviously elsewhere and he was unwilling to express them so that the kill wouldn't be traced back to him.


Well sure, when you put it like that it sounds all logical. It doesn't change the fact that I expected there was a good chance I would wake up dead.

[NAF1138]

Further, NAF's initial reasoning had nothing to do with hotflungwok and was entirely about his list and how he was on it. That reasoning was stated today AFTER he had already confirmed he thought hotflungwok was the Vig yesterday. Leaving out the context of who he thought the Vig was, especially after it's in the open, makes it seem much more like post hoc reasoning, otherwise he could have put more specifics behind his reasoning rather than remaining vaguely general when it just doesn't hold up under the scrutiny of the context of the individual that he thought was the Vig.

Ok, serioulsly WTF BlaM? Do you even believe what you are saying anymore or are you just trying to win the argument? Because I am telling you, no matter how hard you try to win, you are going to lose the NAF is scum game. I didn't menton hotflungwok before, because how the fuck was it relevant? I mentioned how he fit in because you asked me to.

I thought I was probably dead because it is what I would have done. If I look at it from hotflungwoks perspective, it is still what I would have done. If I look at it from anyone in the game's perspective, barring a couple of players...it is STILL what I would have done. Because I DO think that the people on that list need to die. And I AM on that list. I REALLY should be killed first. And not killing me just continues discussions like this that are preventing the town from doing anything usefull, like finding the boss.

Hell, you already said you don't think I am the boss. Wouldn't you say it is more important to try to lynch him toDay than to try to lynch someone who was a recruit? I am not saying don't lynch me because of that, but don't you think that maybe, just maybe, trying to figure out who the boss is would be a better use of our time toDay?

I am still waiting for someone (other than BlaM who I don't actually belive is interested in anything other than being right) to actually present a case against me. BlaM you have tunnel vission and I would say that this back and forth between us is bad for the town at best.

[NAF1138]

Thank you for clarifying, BlaM. I see where you are coming from now. Not sure yet if I quite think it's scummy or not, but I do see the basis of your argument now. It's not as though I haven't been paying attention; some of the subtler things go over this newb's head.


Like the fact that the argument he presented was bullshit.

hmm...noob or...

what the hell, worst you can do is lynch me. I want to see bufftabby talk more.

unvote Darth

Vote bufftabby

I don't like the self deprication. I don't like the "not sure if it is scummy, but I agree" bit. Don't like a lot of things about this or the post that initated it.

More to come after I do some further research.

More in another post.

[NAF1138]

dammit try this again:

unvote Darth

vote bufftabby

[dotchan]

vote NAF1138

His behavior really does seem different from when I saw him as town, and his self-defense reads as weak.

[MHaye]

Yesterday, I nearly put my vote on NAF1138. My reasoning behind such a vote would have been : NAF is advocating killing people whether they are Town or Scum because they would make valuable recruits for the Mafia.
Naf's name is on that list, therefore he is advocating his own death.
Let's see how sincere he actually is.However, he gave me reason to believe in the last hours of the Day that he was sincere; so I voted for Dotchan instead because I thought she might have been scummy.

I therefore doubt that as at Day 3 NAF was scum.

In the future I will vote NAF if I think that he has changed sides, or if the alternative is to lynch another player who I think is not scum at that point (to the degree of certainty I had about NAF in Day 3). For the moment, I will not vote, but continue to hunt elsewhere.

[Blaster Master]

Ok, serioulsly WTF BlaM? Do you even believe what you are saying anymore or are you just trying to win the argument? Because I am telling you, no matter how hard you try to win, you are going to lose the NAF is scum game. I didn't menton hotflungwok before, because how the fuck was it relevant? I mentioned how he fit in because you asked me to.

I thought I was probably dead because it is what I would have done. If I look at it from hotflungwoks perspective, it is still what I would have done. If I look at it from anyone in the game's perspective, barring a couple of players...it is STILL what I would have done. Because I DO think that the people on that list need to die. And I AM on that list. I REALLY should be killed first. And not killing me just continues discussions like this that are preventing the town from doing anything usefull, like finding the boss.

Hell, you already said you don't think I am the boss. Wouldn't you say it is more important to try to lynch him toDay than to try to lynch someone who was a recruit? I am not saying don't lynch me because of that, but don't you think that maybe, just maybe, trying to figure out who the boss is would be a better use of our time toDay?

I am still waiting for someone (other than BlaM who I don't actually belive is interested in anything other than being right) to actually present a case against me. BlaM you have tunnel vission and I would say that this back and forth between us is bad for the town at best.

Huh? I was asking you to clarify because when you gave your reasons for why you thought you'd be Vigged, it blatantly contradicted my assessment of what hotflungwok would have done. When I ask you to explain, you keep saying "that's what I would have done". I get that, but I also have enough respect for you to believe, if you'd thought you had a bead on another player's role, you'd take that into account when analyzing the actions that role would have taken.

You said you thought the Vig would have killed you. You said you thought hotflungwok was the Vig. You said why, if you were the Vig you would have killed yourself. You said you would have done the same thing in his shoes. That's NOT what I'm asking. I'm asking you what about hotflungwok specifically led you to believe he was going to Vig you. I'm not asking you for your reasoning, I'm asking you for what you thought his reasoning was. IMO, I thought it was clear that, if he were the Vig, he wouldn't have targetted anyone, and if he did, it probably wouldn't have been you.

I respect your skill enough to not believe that you'd believe everyone else has the same reasoning patterns that you do, particularly when they expressly contradict the patterns that individual has expressed. I also respect your skill enough to surmise that you would consider his motivations and not be "surprised" when his actions fit his apparent motivations. I just can't see you not taking that into account when explaining why you were surprised. It just doesn't seem like you to overlook something like that.


As for finding the Boss, fair enough. As I said, I don't think you're the boss. When I find someone else of whom I'm suspicious and I think is a likely boss candidate, I'll consider switching my vote.

[USCDiver]

I am still waiting for someone (other than BlaM who I don't actually belive is interested in anything other than being right) to actually present a case against me. BlaM you have tunnel vission and I would say that this back and forth between us is bad for the town at best.

I agree the back and forth is bad for town, but you have completely ignored my post 1216. Not that it is some super-duper revelation that completely damns you but I made my own case and it hasn't been acknowledged and then you ask for someone else to make a case.

[Blaster Master]

Yesterday, I nearly put my vote on NAF1138. My reasoning behind such a vote would have been : NAF is advocating killing people whether they are Town or Scum because they would make valuable recruits for the Mafia.
Naf's name is on that list, therefore he is advocating his own death.
Let's see how sincere he actually is.However, he gave me reason to believe in the last hours of the Day that he was sincere; so I voted for Dotchan instead because I thought she might have been scummy.

I therefore doubt that as at Day 3 NAF was scum.

In the future I will vote NAF if I think that he has changed sides, or if the alternative is to lynch another player who I think is not scum at that point (to the degree of certainty I had about NAF in Day 3). For the moment, I will not vote, but continue to hunt elsewhere.

To be fair, since it's entirely possible that I'm stuck in a circle of confirmation bias, can you point out what posts made you change your mind about his sincerity?

[NAF1138]

I agree the back and forth is bad for town, but you have completely ignored my post 1216. Not that it is some super-duper revelation that completely damns you but I made my own case and it hasn't been acknowledged and then you ask for someone else to make a case.

Your right, you did post that, and I meant to respond to it. Sorry. The thing is, that isn't a case for me being scum or being recruited. That is a case for me potentially being vanilla and thus a better lynch pick than someone who isn't potentially vanilla.

The whole, the vig must have killed Night one bit, it was safer to assume more mafia than less. And the mafia not recruiting Night 1 is so far beyond stupid it is beyond my comprehension. The only reason I could think they would do it would be to fuck with the town because they can. And that, frankly, is a bad reason since they didn't gain anything out of fucking with us, and lost a fair bit.

[fluiddruid]

Also, fluiddruid, not to be petty, but you do mean 11AM CDT not CST, right? So, it's still 1 hour behind EDT?Boo! Minus fifty points!!

Yes, of course you are correct. :)

[bufftabby]

NAF1138:

I am happy to explain.

Self-deprecation: I've said a number of things and asked a number of questions that received no response. I haven't felt like anyone gives a shit what I think. See my prior post where I express my frustration that no one cared about my post-count results, to which only MHaye replied.

"Not sure if this is scummy, but I agree" isn't what I said. I said "I see where you are coming from". As a newb, I'm trying not to reference that fact much, but I do ask questions that are based on that, as I'm trying to understand the intricacies of play. Understanding his position is not agreeing with it; it is comprehending the logic. You even stated something along the lines of "well, when you put it like that, it sounds all logical" or somesuch.

I think voting for me based on that is a bit silly. You'll also note that I've already voted so far, and it wasn't for you. In fact, my vote sits on Darth Sensitive, as did yours before you unvoted me. So obviously we agree on something, eh?

[fluiddruid]

NAF1138 (6): Blaster Master, Menocchio, Hawkeyeop, USCDiver [sub for Diomedes], Hotflungwok, dotchan [sub for Freudian Slit after dying on Day 3]
Darth Sensitive (4): Hal Briston, (NAF1138), OneCentStamp, bufftabby, HazelNutCoffee
bufftabby (1): NAF1138
Millit the Frail (0): (NAF1138)

No vote yet:

Millit the Frail
Hockey Monkey
Drain Bead [sub for Idle Thoughts]
MHaye
Santo Rugger
Pleonast
Koldanar
Darth Sensitive
sinjin

The sun sets on Tuesday, March 18th at 11am CDT.

[Hawkeyeop]

Well, I posted why I thought you could be the godfather Naf. I wouldn't of voted for you if I thought you were recruited.

[USCDiver]

Your right, you did post that, and I meant to respond to it. Sorry. The thing is, that isn't a case for me being scum or being recruited. That is a case for me potentially being vanilla and thus a better lynch pick than someone who isn't potentially vanilla.

I'm sorry I wasn't more explicit enough then. It was a case for your recruitment. Your only rebuttal to the possibility that you were recruited is that it would be stupid to recruit you because you were close to getting lynched the previous Day. My post was meant to explain why I didn't think it was such a ludicrous proposition. If you weren't already a scum prior to Night 3, you effectively telegraphed your Townspersonness yesterday as well as putting yourself on a list of people scum would be smart to recruit. Besides the fact that I'm always a little suspicous of list-makers, you opened up a big ole WIFOM by making that list of recruitables.

[NAF1138]

I like you tabby!

NAF1138:

I am happy to explain.

Self-deprecation: I've said a number of things and asked a number of questions that received no response. I haven't felt like anyone gives a shit what I think. See my prior post where I express my frustration that no one cared about my post-count results, to which only MHaye replied.

We are often to hard on the new players and when we aren't we ignore them. On behalf of everyone else who didn't notice you enough, sorry. I hope my vote will get you some more attention.


"Not sure if this is scummy, but I agree" isn't what I said. I said "I see where you are coming from". As a newb, I'm trying not to reference that fact much, but I do ask questions that are based on that, as I'm trying to understand the intricacies of play. Understanding his position is not agreeing with it; it is comprehending the logic. You even stated something along the lines of "well, when you put it like that, it sounds all logical" or somesuch.

Different quote that sounded logical to me. What pinged me was all you did was ask why, then say, ok thanks, when given an answer. That sort of behavior bothers me, especially in a new player.

I think voting for me based on that is a bit silly. You'll also note that I've already voted so far, and it wasn't for you. In fact, my vote sits on Darth Sensitive, as did yours before you unvoted me. So obviously we agree on something, eh?

No question, but I wanted to see what you had to say, because I noticed (after I saw that post) that I only rememberd you from the Night portion of the thread. I am going back now to see what else you have said durring the Days. In the meantime it is good for you to have a vote.

[NAF1138]

you opened up a big ole WIFOM by making that list of recruitables.

True, and hopefully that will keep the scum from targeting those people. Or will it? Worrying about how the scum will react to lists like that is a true WIFOM argument. WIFOM arguments are by definition bad.

I am playing as transparently as I can, I think this benefits the town. Everything I am thinking is right out there on the table. I might get recruited, sure, but then again I might not. I think that I am now a terrible recruitment choice, but then again, I think it was dumb for the scum to kill Night 1. What do I know.

If all you are going to say it "hey, you could have been recruited" how am I supposed to defend against that? It isn't a case, it is an accusation. You case is that I am probably vanilla.

[MHaye]

To be fair, since it's entirely possible that I'm stuck in a circle of confirmation bias, can you point out what posts made you change your mind about his sincerity?NAF's list was published in post 837. In it he advocates killing off all these players, himself included. In Day 3, with (as we then thought) 2-3 Mafia, if he himself was Mafia (either the boss or a recruit) to publically call out for his own death would have been a fairly gutsy move.

At that point, NAF had one vote on him; that would be your vote in post 732. So it wasn't outside the bounds of possibility that this was a gutsy scum play, and I actively entertained the possibility that that was so.

As play progressed, votes began piling up on NAF. What convinced me of his sincerity was that he didn't try and weasel out of the logic of his list on a flimsy suspicion. In post 979 he urged avoiding no lynch and declared his willingness to self-hammer to avoid a lynch. This could have been posturing, but there were several posts between then and the end of the Day showing that people were not clear on the rules about tied lynch votes. This was the post that was pivotal in my deciding that at that point NAF was sincere.

He was still taking the position that he was expendable less than five minutes from time – see post 1023, when it was still eminently possible for a last minute vote switch from Dotchan to NAF would have tied the vote. At that point, the vote count was Dotchan 7, NAF 5, and Koldanar's vote would have thrown NAF over the edge.

Those are the basis for my assessment that at the end of Day 3, NAF was on the Town side. Now? Who knows – except NAF and the Mafia of course.

[NAF1138]

Well, I posted why I thought you could be the godfather Naf. I wouldn't of voted for you if I thought you were recruited.

Sorry, I don't see it. Would you mind reposting?

[Pleonast]

I'm trying to decide who to vote. I typically don't have much time to keep up on the weekends, so I want to put a vote out now, rather than Monday.

I'm not seeing the NAF vote. He plays very similar to me--throwing out ideas to see what works best, irrespective of how good they do in fact work. I can't say I really like any of his ideas this game, but I appreciate his effort. I'll repeat my Mafia mantra: A difference of opinion does not imply a difference of alignment.

I don't see anything NAF has done that seems to have a scum motivation, so I won't vote for him.


Who was it that said they saw a Vig-tell and recommended the Vig out themself? I think it was Blaster. Can you explain yourself about that? It struck me as very suspicious.

Very provisionally:
vote BlasterMaster

[NAF1138]

Who was it that said they saw a Vig-tell and recommended the Vig out themself? I think it was Blaster. Can you explain yourself about that? It struck me as very suspicious.




That was me...it was part of my "I am going to die soon, I had best get all my thoughts out while I have the chance" diatribe.

[Hawkeyeop]

I was referring to this post. You did respond to it.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9577304&postcount=1206