NFL offseason discussion (up to but not including draft)

[Ellis Dee]

Here is for discussion of the moves your team makes, the moves you wish they'd make, and the one's you wish you could undo. Like, say, the Falcons releasing Crumpler. WTF was that about?

Speaking of the Falcons, as a Giants fan I was interested in this rumor (http://blog.nj.com/ledgergiants/2008/02/giants_seek_trade_for_deangelo.html):the Giants are willing to give Atlanta their first-round pick (31st overall) in April's draft in exchange for [two-time Pro Bowl cornerback DeAngelo] Hall.I'd personally like this deal despite Hall's attitude issues. Hell, I respect Hall blasting Petrino for running away with his tail between his legs, but I'm not thrilled with that meltdown he had against Carolina. Even still, the upside is enticing.

First off he's a speed demon, which is always nice in a corner. I loves me some Aaron Ross, but do the Giants really need to be spending two consecutive first rounders on DBs? Well, if it lands you a nice tandem, I'd say it's worth it. And Ross & Hall would surely qualify. What else is Reese going to do with that pick, draft another DE?

As I detailed in another thread, the Giants don't really have too many pressing needs, but the secondary is far and away the shakiest group. Gibril is a free agent, the linked article suggest they are getting ready to cut R.W. McQuarters, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the venerable Sam Madison retire.

Given that, I'd like to see that top pick used in the secondary. And since Hall is close enough to a proven commodity, a straight-up trade sounds like a no-brainer to me.

[SenorBeef]

I don't watch the Falcons much but I get the impression Hall makes a lot of bad reads and gives up a lot of plays. Combine that with being a head case and I'd say he's overrated.

The Browns resigned Jamal Lewis today, which I'm okayish with. He's getting up there in milage, but he's only 28. It was a 2 year deal with an option for a third... details aren't in yet but I doubt it's outrageous money.

Most of the year I thought he wasn't a good fit for the blocking scheme - people see him as a Jerome Bettis type but that's only because they're looking at his size. Jerome was a big guy with agility but not much speed. Jamal is a big guy with speed but not much agility. He's not a great short yardage back for his size and he misses a lot of holes with a short window because he hesistates too much and doesn't have good short area acceleration. Still, he racked up over 1300 rushing yards despite missing 2 games and being injured in others... he averaged over 130 yards per game after Thanksgiving. What they need to do is work Jerome Harrison into the game more - he might be the best running back that no one's ever heard of.

They're working on a 3 year contract with Derrick Anderson. He originally wanted 5-7, they wanted 3.. and the organization is at least claiming they're close on free. The hardcore fan base has totally turned on Anderson after he pretty much single handedly blew locking up a playoff slot - you've never seen a 24 year old quarterback who threw for 29 touchdowns in his first year as a starter so unwanted by his fanbase. He's keeping The Golden Boy off the field.

[Ellis Dee]

The Browns resigned Jamal Lewis today, which I'm okayish with.Not a Browns fan, but that was my exact feeling when I saw the news on the crawl. I'm frankly surprised that he's only 28; he feels old, if you know what I mean.

You might be right about Hall. In all honesty I haven't seen any of his games so I don't really know. He did make two probowls, though, and he impressed me in the probowl skills competitions, so I assume there is some potential there.

As for Derrick Anderson: Really? What happened? Could you elaborate? I was a bit preoccupied with the Giants at the end of the season...

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

As for Derrick Anderson: Really? What happened? Could you elaborate? I was a bit preoccupied with the Giants at the end of the season...

In short, Charlie Frye snuck into Paul Brown Stadium, knocked out D.A., and put on his uniform for the second-to-last game of the season (which, if won, would have guaranteed a playoff spot).

[Jimmy Chitwood]

That would be a fantastic deal for the Giants, especially in terms of matching up with divisional opponents. I think the Falcons could probably get more for Hall if they wanted to, though.

[dalej42]

The Cardinals (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/articles/0221cardscuts.html) cut three players to make room to restructure Larry Fitzgerald's contract.

Very good move. Boldin and Fitzgerald are the best receiving duo in the NFL.

Not sure what the Cards should do about Edge. Running backs do not age well.

I think Matt Leinart should be the starter next year. We need to find out if he is Peyton Manning or Ryan Leaf. Warner has maybe one year left, but he is injury prone and fumbles too much.

[lieu]

The Giants and Hall are what I came in to mention too, although as a Cowboy fan my enthusiasm is less than yours, Ellis.

The Boys are letting Flozell Adams test free agent waters, although it likely is just so a fair market value can be established. I imagine we'll have for for at least one more year. The same better hold true for Marion Barber.

Zach Thomas is lookin' around. It'd be nice to have him back home but we've bigger needs in the secondary.

[Really Not All That Bright]

In short, Charlie Frye snuck into Paul Brown Stadium, knocked out D.A., and put on his uniform for the second-to-last game of the season (which, if won, would have guaranteed a playoff spot).
Bah. First-year starter has one bad game and all of a sudden he's the goat. He had a poor game, sure, but his receivers seemed to take the day off too.

I doubt Hall is going anywhere. He's brilliant in man coverage (though not so good playing zone) and the Falcons know whoever they draft with that pick likely won't be half as good as Hall. Plus, they play in a division where every opponent has one really good receiver (Steve Smith, Marques Colston, Joey Galloway) and a bunch of weak ones. He's perfect for his role - stick him on the other team's big threat and let your safeties worry about the other side of the field.

I think Matt Leinart should be the starter next year. We need to find out if he is Peyton Manning or Ryan Leaf. Warner has maybe one year left, but he is injury prone and fumbles too much.
I can already tell you who Leinart is. He's Matt Hasselbeck. He'll take a while to stop throwing silly picks, but when he figures it out he'll be a top-10 guy year in and year out. He'll never be MVP, but you'll not have to worry about finding a new QB every three years.

[Wargamer]

The Panthers cut DeShawn Foster on Thursday. Seems they think his fumble-prone, oft-injured schtick was getting old. So, it appears DeAngelo Williams will be the started for the Cats next year.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

I...I like the Lions.


I wish we had Mike Martz. That upsets me.

[garygnu]

I...I like the Lions.


I wish we had Mike Martz. That upsets me.
I'm wallowing in 49er fandom, eagerly awaiting the series premiere of The Odd Couple remake.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

I'm wallowing in 49er fandom, eagerly awaiting the series premiere of The Odd Couple remake.


You'll see a difference if you see the details in football. You should be happy.

[SenorBeef]

Not a Browns fan, but that was my exact feeling when I saw the news on the crawl. I'm frankly surprised that he's only 28; he feels old, if you know what I mean.



He's got a lot of milage, he came into the league at 20 or 21. But he looked healthier this year than he has in the previous 2 years - he had some offseason surgery to remove bone spurs and it helped him.

I was pretty down on him in the first half of the year - Cleveland's line is a mobile line that effectively blocks on the second level, but Lewis with his slow acceleration and sometimes slow decision making seems to be better suited to a mammoth drive blocking line that opens big, designated holes and lets him run through them at full speed and handle the second level guys himself.

But part of that is that the passing game was very successful and the defense was atrocious - forcing the Browns to score all game and gave him limited running opportunities. Later in the year when the passing game slowed down and the defense started to improve he was much more productive - in his last 6 games he ran for 697 yards for almost 4.8 yards a carry so I've warmed up to him somewhat. He had a really productive year - if you project his per-game average to the two games he missed due to injury, he'd have ran for just under 1500 yards... on a team with a bad defense that rarely had the opportunity to run out the clock.

At least the contract length is reasonable - 2 years is probably what's left of his productive time. I'd feel better about the situation if they start working Jerome Harrison into the game - he's one of those players where almost every time you see him play he does remarkably well, and then inexplicably you almost never see him play.



You might be right about Hall. In all honesty I haven't seen any of his games so I don't really know. He did make two probowls, though, and he impressed me in the probowl skills competitions, so I assume there is some potential there.



I haven't seen Hall that much either, I'm mostly going by what I've read on threads where the idea of trading for Hall has been raised on a Browns board. There were some people who seemed pretty knowledgable about him. The consensus was that he was very physically talented but often got burned by mental mistakes, biting on fakes, etc.


As for Derrick Anderson: Really? What happened? Could you elaborate? I was a bit preoccupied with the Giants at the end of the season...

He threw a whole lot of picks at backbreaking times in a game that would've locked up a playoff spot. Usually the QB takes too much blame for a loss, but he pretty much single handedly blew that game.

The game plan was strange, though - there were 40+ mph wind that day and Cinci only let Palmer throw 20 times or so and he looked pretty crappy doing it. So why the Browns tried to pass, pass, pass under those conditions when Lewis had ripped up Cincinatti for 216 yards earlier in the year is mysterious.

That wasn't the only instance, though. Fan displeasure was growing. Derek tends to do some things that are so obviously bad that it pisses off fans. He reads deep coverage very well, but sometimes entirely misses the underneath coverage, and he'll throw a ball directly into a linebacker's chest. He's also got wildly inconsistent and horrible accuracy on the most basic short throws - he'll sometimes overthrow a back that's 7 yards away from him on a flare route by throwing it 3 yards above his head.

And then there was the crowd that was saying "Yeah, so Anderson's throwing 3 or 4 touchdowns a game.... give The Golden Boy this offense line and these receivers, and he'd be throwing for 8 per game..."

Before the Cinci game, most were generally supportive of Anderson with a minority of loud critics, but it flipped after that game. But this is only amongst hardcore fans - the ones that post on message boards - I don't live in Cleveland anymore so I don't have a sense of what the average fan feels.

My personal feeling on the issue is that someone wants to overpay in a trade for Anderson, I'd take it (mostly because the defense really needs help). But if not, sign Anderson to a 2-3 year contract. Having two good QBs is not some horrible thing that must be avoided.

[SenorBeef]

They resolved the 3rd-4th-5th draft position ties.

Atlanta drafts #3, Raiders #4, Chiefs #5.

From John Clayton:



The Falcons had the first call and won the toss. Under that scenario, the Falcons got the third pick and the Raiders the fourth pick. Had the Falcons lost the toss and the Raiders won, the Raiders would have drafted third, and then the Falcons would have flipped against the Chiefs for the No. 4 and No. 5 picks.



That's not true, is it? Under that scenario the Chiefs had no shot at the #3 pick. Unless they did some sort of 3 way drawing to determine which two flipped first... in which case why not use that same 3 way drawing to determine draft order? Maybe the rulebook required a "coin flip" specifically.

[MadTheSwine]

I am a huge Rams fan.

I think they are a waaaaay better team than the 3-13 record,any of ya'll think so that aren't rammily biased?
Glad they kept Linehan for a coach.I'm excited about the upcoming season.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I am a huge Rams fan.

I think they are a waaaaay better team than the 3-13 record,any of ya'll think so that aren't rammily biased?
Glad they kept Linehan for a coach.I'm excited about the upcoming season.
Definitely too much talent there for them not to improve.

In fact, as long as they can keep one or two starting linemen healthy all year they should certainly be no worse than 8-8. No team could have survived the O-line injuries the Rams did last year.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Definitely too much talent there for them not to improve.

In fact, as long as they can keep one or two starting linemen healthy all year they should certainly be no worse than 8-8. No team could have survived the O-line injuries the Rams did last year.


Agreed. That line killed them last year.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Agreed. That line killed them last year.
And my fantasy season, since I took Marc Bulger in half my drafts.

*sigh*

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I don't watch the Falcons much but I get the impression Hall makes a lot of bad reads and gives up a lot of plays. Combine that with being a head case and I'd say he's overrated.

The Browns resigned Jamal Lewis today, which I'm okayish with. He's getting up there in milage, but he's only 28. It was a 2 year deal with an option for a third... details aren't in yet but I doubt it's outrageous money.

Most of the year I thought he wasn't a good fit for the blocking scheme - people see him as a Jerome Bettis type but that's only because they're looking at his size. Jerome was a big guy with agility but not much speed. Jamal is a big guy with speed but not much agility. He's not a great short yardage back for his size and he misses a lot of holes with a short window because he hesistates too much and doesn't have good short area acceleration. Still, he racked up over 1300 rushing yards despite missing 2 games and being injured in others... he averaged over 130 yards per game after Thanksgiving. What they need to do is work Jerome Harrison into the game more - he might be the best running back that no one's ever heard of.

They're working on a 3 year contract with Derrick Anderson. He originally wanted 5-7, they wanted 3.. and the organization is at least claiming they're close on free. The hardcore fan base has totally turned on Anderson after he pretty much single handedly blew locking up a playoff slot - you've never seen a 24 year old quarterback who threw for 29 touchdowns in his first year as a starter so unwanted by his fanbase. He's keeping The Golden Boy off the field.
The fans are right to not like Anderson, because his receivers bail him out, and he isn't very good. His stats were completely padded against my team (Bengals) in that first meeting.
Jamal actually had a better year than I thought he would. Last year's performance had me thinking he was washed up, but he did OK.
I did particularly relish ruining your run at the playoffs in that second Browns/Bengals game, btw.
No worries, though, we had a horribly injured/suspended/chaotic year. We'll be back in 2008. We gotta fix that defense though. It sucks. Well, that and the running game. Rudi/Perry being hurt and/or ineffective last year was painful to watch.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

The Cardinals (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/articles/0221cardscuts.html) cut three players to make room to restructure Larry Fitzgerald's contract.

Very good move. Boldin and Fitzgerald are the best receiving duo in the NFL.

Not sure what the Cards should do about Edge. Running backs do not age well.

I think Matt Leinart should be the starter next year. We need to find out if he is Peyton Manning or Ryan Leaf. Warner has maybe one year left, but he is injury prone and fumbles too much.

I think Chad Johnson and TJ Houshmanzadeh would argue that statement, even if Chad is a crybaby headcase mini-version of Terrel Owens. Hell, you could make a case for Moss/Welker here too.

[Ellis Dee]

That would be a fantastic deal for the Giants, especially in terms of matching up with divisional opponents. I think the Falcons could probably get more for Hall if they wanted to, though.Yeah, I saw on tonight's SportsCenter -- as I sit here buried under almost a foot of snow -- John Clayton talking about how there are at least 3 or 4 teams interested in the same deal for Hall. Since the Giants have the last pick, everyone else's deal is sweeter for Atlanta. Thus there's no way to get Hall straight up. Clayton mentioned they could try to toss in a 3rd rounder, but I'm not down with spending multiple picks on any one player. (Other than a franchise QB, of course.)I think they are a waaaaay better team than the 3-13 record,any of ya'll think so that aren't rammily biased?Absolutely. The Giants got crushed by injuries in 2003, resulting in a 4-12 record, a fired coach, and the dawning of the Eli era. Injuries can take out any team, and unfortunately for the Rams, 2007 was their turn in the barrel.

[Moriarty]

I got everyone beat...I'm a Dolphins fan. When your team is absolute shit, there's only one way to go, and that is up (or so I hope). And when your team is 1-15, the most exciting time of year is the draft.

#1 pick: They have so many holes, it's hard to know what to do with it. Ideally, they could trade down to a mid-first and pick up some later picks too. But, ever since Jimmy Johnson's Cowboys raped the Minnesotta Vikings in exchange for Herschel Walker, I just don't think a blockbuster pick swap is ever going to be forthcoming.

In that light, I think the best hope is to pick the best player out there; I'm hoping for LSU's Glen Dorsey. Maybe a stud defensive lineman would entice Jason Taylor to stick it out for another few years.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I got everyone beat...I'm a Dolphins fan. When your team is absolute shit, there's only one way to go, and that is up (or so I hope). And when your team is 1-15, the most exciting time of year is the draft.

#1 pick: They have so many holes, it's hard to know what to do with it. Ideally, they could trade down to a mid-first and pick up some later picks too. But, ever since Jimmy Johnson's Cowboys raped the Minnesotta Vikings in exchange for Herschel Walker, I just don't think a blockbuster pick swap is ever going to be forthcoming.

In that light, I think the best hope is to pick the best player out there; I'm hoping for LSU's Glen Dorsey. Maybe a stud defensive lineman would entice Jason Taylor to stick it out for another few years.
You guys need some playmakers on offense, especially a QB. And a WR.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Yeah, I saw on tonight's SportsCenter -- as I sit here buried under almost a foot of snow -- John Clayton talking about how there are at least 3 or 4 teams interested in the same deal for Hall. Since the Giants have the last pick, everyone else's deal is sweeter for Atlanta. Thus there's no way to get Hall straight up. Clayton mentioned they could try to toss in a 3rd rounder, but I'm not down with spending multiple picks on any one player. (Other than a franchise QB, of course.)Absolutely. The Giants got crushed by injuries in 2003, resulting in a 4-12 record, a fired coach, and the dawning of the Eli era. Injuries can take out any team, and unfortunately for the Rams, 2007 was their turn in the barrel.
It's so funny to me that Coughlin was the whipping boy in 2006...with the Tiki episode...and then the "disciplinarian" coach goes on to win the SB over a heavily favored opponent. Sweet justice.

[SenorBeef]

The fans are right to not like Anderson, because his receivers bail him out, and he isn't very good. His stats were completely padded against my team (Bengals) in that first meeting.


Padded how? The game was in contention until the last drive, it's not like they were running up the score. Padded by getting to play against a terrible defense? Sure, but there are lots of terrible pass defenses and 5 TDs is still fairly rare. Why should his accomplishment count against him?

I'm not Derek Anderson's biggest fan, and he is in a positive situation, but seriously, how often do you see a young kid put up 3800 yards and 29 TDs in their first season as a starter? And for that matter, he wasn't even the starter at the beginning of the season, didn't get all the starter's reps in preseason/practice, etc. People are willing to write this 24 year old kid off as terrible already. Bizarre.

[EsotericEnigma]

To reference the OP, Philly has made a living defensively for nearly a decade now by playing man-to-man with two really good corners, thus freeing up the entire center of the defense for awkward and creative blitz packages. Hell, Philadelphia and Jim Johnson are essentially synonyms for aggressive blitzing schemes. And where did the Giant's defensive coordinator come from?

But I don't understand, what happened to Sam Madison? Wasn't he good? Would Hall be that much of an improvement? I didn't see enough of the Giants to know... but I do know they create a lot of pressure from their two defensive ends, and to match that with the ability to be more aggressive in passing situations because of two really good corners would be something I don't want to even think about.

[kidchameleon]

People are willing to write this 24 year old kid off as terrible already. Bizarre.

Much like how Tony Romo had been 'figured out' at the end of last year. It's even worse on the Browns because if Anderson turns out to be good, they've 'blown' two first round picks on a back up QB. Unless they can pull a Steve Walsh with Quinn.

An interesting rumor I heard was Dallas sending Carpenter and Spears back to the Tuna in Miami to move up in the draft and get McFadden. I wouldn't mind losing those guys so much, we have quite a lot of depth at LB and DE.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Much like how Tony Romo had been 'figured out' at the end of last year. It's even worse on the Browns because if Anderson turns out to be good, they've 'blown' two first round picks on a back up QB. Unless they can pull a Steve Walsh with Quinn.
They haven't blown them. They'll never get full value for him, but I bet by this time next year there will be a half-dozen teams offering top-15 picks for Quinn.

There's nothing more appealing to NFL GMs than a quarterback nobody knows much about.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

They haven't blown them. They'll never get full value for him, but I bet by this time next year there will be a half-dozen teams offering top-15 picks for Quinn.

There's nothing more appealing to NFL GMs than a quarterback nobody knows much about.


Just like NBA GMs and freshmen with "upside". Case in point is Marvin Williams, a second overall pick that didn't even start for UNC. They won the national championship with him as the 6th man. He was the first Tarheel drafted.

[Drain Bead]

I'm a Bills fan. The only move we've had all offseason that I know of was to Toronto.

[Hamlet]

PACKERS

One of the benefits of being in the NFL Championship and having the youngest team in the NFL is that there are generally not many holes to fill. I expect, like last season, the Packers not to do too much in free agency and to continue to build through the draft. So far, the only actions they've taken that I remember off the top of my head is cutting Bubba Franks and placing the franchise tag on Corey Williams, one of their starting DT's. I found the former move obvious and welcome, but the latter one left me scratching my head a bit. Corey Williams is a great, young DT who is just starting to blossom, and I'm happy he's a Packer. But, now slapping the franchise tag on him, I think the Packers chances of signing him to a long term contract are slim. I'm hoping that he doesn't get peevish about the tag, but I'm hoping he'll be nice trade bait.

And, of course the biggest off season question is Brett Favre. I wouldn't be surprised if he retires, because I think it would be tough to match last season; but I also wouldn't be surprised if he came back. Even if he leaves, I think it is pretty clear Aaron Rogers would be the starter. The Pack would have to sign a veteran backup (there's nobody who excites me in the least). They would also grab one in the draft.

The biggest needs this off season, whether draft of free agency, is OG, CB, OLB, and TE. With Faneca looking like he'll be back with the Steelers, Lance Briggs being too expensive and same division, I really don't see any big moves being made for a free agent.

[The Tof]

San Diego Super Charger fan poking his head in.

I don't think this is going to be much of an off-season for us. Typically the off-season is like our Super Bowl. We spend the time getting excited about all of our free-agents and draft picks.

Our GM, AJ Smith, however has proven to be wily with his free agents... preferring to build through the draft and take care of his own. However- the last I saw we do have some good money to spend, so it'll be interesting to see if AJ decides to spend it. We pick late in the draft, without a 2nd round pick this year, so he just may.

We will likely be losing two key players in Lorenzo Neal and Drayton Florence. However, we have heir's to their spots already. (In Drayton's case, his heir took his place midway through the season.)


Offensively, we may need some more consistency on the right side of the OL. So I wouldn't be surprised to see us pick up a solid RT, or maybe somebody to challenge old man Goff at RG.

With the emergence of Jackson (FINALLY!) at the end of the year, and Chambers. Eric Parker coming back and Buster Davis in his 2nd year- our WR's may actually now be a strength, when just this last year they were probably the weakest link. So, no need there.

Rivers finally started showing the benefits of Norv's tough love from early in the year, and I think that this year he may become a star. If nothing else, the struggles from this past year, I suspect are behind him. Set at QB (Although we will likely draft a "3rd" QB as Volek will be gone with Charlie Whitehurst moving into the backup role)

Obviously we are set at running back.

Defensively we are as solid a team in the league. My biggest worry is a solid backup for DT Jamal Williams. When healthy one of the best in the game. The key being, "When Healthy". We have a solid corps of young and worthy LB's, one of the best CB duo's in the league in Jammer and Cromartie. An Up and Comer at Safety in Weddle (a huge gamble for AJ that is paying off.) Needs here are backup DT and a Safety to complement Weddle.

So that is it, our team in a nutshell. If I were planning, I'd go after an OL in free agency and use the draft pick for other needs. Maybe trade down for a couple of lower picks and try to get a S and DT that are raw, which we can groom. AJ's done a good job scouting those guys out, and at this point I totally trust his drafting ability.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

San Diego Super Charger fan poking his head in.

I don't think this is going to be much of an off-season for us. Typically the off-season is like our Super Bowl. We spend the time getting excited about all of our free-agents and draft picks.

Our GM, AJ Smith, however has proven to be wily with his free agents... preferring to build through the draft and take care of his own. However- the last I saw we do have some good money to spend, so it'll be interesting to see if AJ decides to spend it. We pick late in the draft, without a 2nd round pick this year, so he just may.

We will likely be losing two key players in Lorenzo Neal and Drayton Florence. However, we have heir's to their spots already. (In Drayton's case, his heir took his place midway through the season.)


Offensively, we may need some more consistency on the right side of the OL. So I wouldn't be surprised to see us pick up a solid RT, or maybe somebody to challenge old man Goff at RG.

With the emergence of Jackson (FINALLY!) at the end of the year, and Chambers. Eric Parker coming back and Buster Davis in his 2nd year- our WR's may actually now be a strength, when just this last year they were probably the weakest link. So, no need there.

Rivers finally started showing the benefits of Norv's tough love from early in the year, and I think that this year he may become a star. If nothing else, the struggles from this past year, I suspect are behind him. Set at QB (Although we will likely draft a "3rd" QB as Volek will be gone with Charlie Whitehurst moving into the backup role)

Obviously we are set at running back.

Defensively we are as solid a team in the league. My biggest worry is a solid backup for DT Jamal Williams. When healthy one of the best in the game. The key being, "When Healthy". We have a solid corps of young and worthy LB's, one of the best CB duo's in the league in Jammer and Cromartie. An Up and Comer at Safety in Weddle (a huge gamble for AJ that is paying off.) Needs here are backup DT and a Safety to complement Weddle.

So that is it, our team in a nutshell. If I were planning, I'd go after an OL in free agency and use the draft pick for other needs. Maybe trade down for a couple of lower picks and try to get a S and DT that are raw, which we can groom. AJ's done a good job scouting those guys out, and at this point I totally trust his drafting ability.
Yeah you guys are a pretty complete team. I get worried about River's decision-making sometimes, but I never could figure out if it was because the Bolts never had a playmaker besides Gates to catch the ball or not. I think the Chargers still need a burner at WR.
How's their saftey septh? Is Kiel gone, or was he just suspended for that cough medicine thingie?
It's funny...I am a Bengals fan and we have had an absolutely disastrous run dating back to the second half of last season...losing games we should have won, having to have DE's play LB due to massive LB injuries, player suspensions, Oline problems, top 3 RB's all injured...
And when I read about the solidity of a roster like the Chargers, I can't help but be envious, and hope that we can someday pay you back for being the catalyst that started our slide with that second-half debacle loss we had at your hands almost nigh two years ago now!
:)

[The Tof]

Yeah you guys are a pretty complete team. I get worried about River's decision-making sometimes, but I never could figure out if it was because the Bolts never had a playmaker besides Gates to catch the ball or not. I think the Chargers still need a burner at WR.

Rivers started playing a lot better near the end of the season. Norv really refused to compromise with Rivers and gave him a lot of responsibility. He struggled, but really started putting it together. I think it will make him a better player in the long run.

Theoretically Vincent Jackson can be that burner. He has shown flashes, but never was able to put it together. I don't know if he is fast enough, he certainly is huge. He was never able to emerge though, but finally int he playoffs he seemed to figure it out. Eric Parker is a hugely underrated possession guy. He had the worst game of his life two seasons ago in our Patriot loss. But he's normally so reliable and can catch anything. So, his coming back will help us a lot. So, even without a Burner, we'll have a lot of weapons running routes.

How's their saftey septh? Is Kiel gone, or was he just suspended for that cough medicine thingie?

Our starters are Marlon McCree and Clinton Hart. Weddle is waiting in the wings to take over a starting spot. AFter that, pickings are pretty slim. Kiel, I believe, was cut before before the season before this last one.. but I can't be 100% sure on that. We definitely didn't have him this season. Like I mentioned, I'd like a Safety. Clinton Hart is OK, and McCree is a hard hitter, but is getting older. Bottom line, this is an area that needs addressed.

It's funny...I am a Bengals fan and we have had an absolutely disastrous run dating back to the second half of last season...losing games we should have won, having to have DE's play LB due to massive LB injuries, player suspensions, Oline problems, top 3 RB's all injured...
And when I read about the solidity of a roster like the Chargers, I can't help but be envious, and hope that we can someday pay you back for being the catalyst that started our slide with that second-half debacle loss we had at your hands almost nigh two years ago now!
:)

That was a crazy game. I remember just laughing at the ridiculousness of that game in the first half, because it was so out of control in the Bengals favor. I almost missed the second half, because I was going to find something better to do with my time.

We got lucky that AJ turned out to be a very good GM. But everything is cyclical. You guys will have your day :)

[Omniscient]

OK, this is probably going to be a pretty wild-and-woolly off-season for the Bears. I'm going to break it up into sections for review.

Secondary
We are pretty much locked up at this position. Both CBs, Vasher and Tillman, were signed to long-term extensions during last season at a fairly reasonable price. It's nice not having a hole there, but we are pretty much married to them and they didn't play up to expectations last season. Hopefully with a healthy team around them they'll bounce back to Pro Bowl form. The vastly overrated Ricky Manning Jr. is also locked up at safety for another 4 years, we'll see if he survives the off-season. Archuleta is almost certainly on the chopping block too, thank god. Mike Brown is in the last year of his contract, not sure if they intend to offer him an extension prior to the start of this year, personally I hope they wait for him to prove he can stay healthy. The Bears always draft a couple DBs in the middle rounds of the draft and I wouldn't be surprised to see them add some depth this year as well. They have too much money tied up in the secondary to add any Free Agents though.

Linebackers
Urlacher and Hillenmeyer are both signed long term and won't be going anywhere, though we could desperately use an infusion of youth at the LB position. Briggs probably won't be back even though he's softened his stance and said he'd be open to coming back. Typically the Bears don't respond well to players playing hardball, so it's probably a long shot for him to come back. The Bears have far too much money invested in their defense. They need to get some cheap production from a young guy somewhere. With luck they'll find one in the draft because we certainly don't have anyone on the roster now who can replace him.

Defensive Line
We were extremely soft in the middle this season with the mass exodus after the Super Bowl and injuries made that even worse. Tommie Harris is the key but he needs help. Darwin Walker is gone and no one on the roster showed signs of life. This is a higher priority than replacing Briggs and if they add a free agent it's has to be a DT. I'd give my left nut to trade up to draft Glenn Dorsey, but that's a total pipe dream since the Bears trade down, not up as a rule. We're in better shape at End. Ogunleye is very solid and Alex Brown, just extended, and Mark Anderson make up a really good pass rush platoon.

Offensive Line
Starters Ruben Brown and Fred Miller are both gone and there's no apparent solution in place to replace them, O-Line was one of the team biggest problems for them last year, so parting ways with these guys makes perfect sense, but I had hoped that by this point we'd have a gameplan towards improving. The backups St. Clair and Metcalf have shown flashes, but I'm not comfortable putting our entire season on them. There's lots of talk about the Bears bringing in Alan Faneca which would go a long ways to getting the running game back on track but it still leaves a big hole at Tackle. If there's a quality OT in the draft you can guarantee that the Bears draft him. Ryan Clady would be a blessing if he fell to us.

Receivers
The Bears just resigned Desmond Clark to a 2-year deal which is a little confusing. I like the guy but we drafted Olsen in the first round and should be getting to a point where he's the starter. Olsen has performed well when he got chances and his ceiling is way higher than Clark. Not sure what they are paying Clark, but I hope it doesn't hurt our ability to resign Berrian. Berrian is probably our top priority FA and the loss of Mushin Muhammad makes retaining him crucial. We should be able to retain him because this year's WR FA class is pretty deep holding his price down a bit. I'd love to see the Bears make a run at Jerry Porter as well. He seems like a nice gamble who could be gotten at a bargain and would look good opposite Berrian. The Bears need to stay healthy at WR and I suspect they'll try and build depth late in the draft,

Running Backs
I could just rant and rave here, but I just don't have the energy. Cedric Benson has completely destroyed my will to live. We can't even afford to cut the scumbag because of the contract his holdout landed him. I hope he gets polio. Our only prayer is if we can secure a RB in the draft, but we can't afford to take one in the first 2 rounds. It's a deep class so we might get lucky and get Steve Slaton in the 3rd round. My dream of getting Mendenhall is just not going to happen.

Quarterback
I'm saving this for last because I can barely get my mind around the fact that we just resigned Rex-fucking-Grossman. Now, logically I understand it. There really isn't anyone else out there that's realistic and they signed him to a small, one year deal. He's not assured the starting spot and I do think he has ability. His problem has always been that fact that he's simply too dumb to play the position. Part of me remembers those beautiful deep balls he dropped in Berrian's hands every other game in 2006 and I hope that the coaching staff can brow beat him into limiting the turnovers. Forcing an INT is one thing, fumbling a snap or getting stripepd from behind every key play is just too crippling and soul sucking. The real question is what is our other alternative. There's no way we're trading for McNabb based on what the Eagles are asking for him. Derek Anderson would have been a nice gamble but as a RFA we'd have to give up a 1st and 3rd rounder, which is too much for a guy with those question marks. This is easily the weakest QB FA class I have ever seen. One look at the available list of QBs (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/news/story?id=3251322) convinces me that the Dolphins have to draft Matt Ryan at #1.

Overall I'm not very optimistic about this Bears season. We have a lot of talent and we've got the flexibility to fill our holes. We need some coaching changes, I'm not sure I can handle another season with Ron turner. I think we can fix our problems on the O-line and D-line in the draft. I think we can replace Briggs and Muhammad. However Benson and Grossman are featured prominently in any plans, which is a recipe for disaster. Unless we're able to draft a sleeper RB and find a good project QB how can start next season in the middle rounds (extremely unlikely) we're not going to be able to return the Super Bowl any time soon.

This sucks.

[SenorBeef]

Darren McFadden just ran a 4.27 40 at the combine.

[Ellis Dee]

Our only prayer is if we can secure a RB in the draft, but we can't afford to take one in the first 2 rounds.Yeah, I personally don't think any team can afford to take a RB in the first two rounds simply because I don't feel any RB is worth it. Sure, there's always going to be an occasional Ladainian Tomlinson or Adrian Peterson, but when it gets down to it the later round picks can easily be solid players. Hell, Curtis Martin was a 3rd rounder.

I'd point to the Giants backfield during the 07 training camp as an example:

Brandon Jacobs, 4th rounder (and you hate him anyway)
Derrick Ward, 7th rounder
Ahmad Bradshaw, 7th rounder
Ryan Grant, undrafted free agent

It is clearly possible to build a formidable stable of running backs without ever spending a first-day pick and without signing a high-priced free agent. Not to mention the fact that both Ward and Bradshaw return kicks. (Not that you need help with that, but still.)

[Omniscient]

Yeah, I personally don't think any team can afford to take a RB in the first two rounds simply because I don't feel any RB is worth it. Sure, there's always going to be an occasional Ladainian Tomlinson or Adrian Peterson, but when it gets down to it the later round picks can easily be solid players. Hell, Curtis Martin was a 3rd rounder.

I'd point to the Giants backfield during the 07 training camp as an example:

Brandon Jacobs, 4th rounder (and you hate him anyway)
Derrick Ward, 7th rounder
Ahmad Bradshaw, 7th rounder
Ryan Grant, undrafted free agent

It is clearly possible to build a formidable stable of running backs without ever spending a first-day pick and without signing a high-priced free agent. Not to mention the fact that both Ward and Bradshaw return kicks. (Not that you need help with that, but still.)

Yeah, however Angelo is simply incapable of scouting running backs. He can identify defensive players, but the guy has never drafted a productive running back in his career (he did draft Warrick Dunn, but I'd argue he wasn't worth the 12th overall pick). Expecting the same guy who drafted Cedric Benson 4th overall to identify a stable of late rounders is like asking Parcells to teach a sensitivity course. If I thought he was capable of picking a effective feature back I'd support him using a first round pick, so long as it means I never have to heard Cedric Bensons name called again.

[Ellis Dee]

Angelo is simply incapable of scouting running backs.It's funny how some GM's just seem to have blind spots. Ernie Accorsi may have been a genius at scouting defensive ends, but he was terrible at wide receivers and cornerbacks. Tim Carter, Ron Dixon, Jamaar Taylor, Sinorice Moss, Willie Ponder, Will Allen, William Peterson, Frank Walker, Curtis Deloatch...ugh.

In just one year Jerry Reese is making me feel a lot more comfortable about the Giants drafting cornerbacks and wide receivers, with both Aaron Ross and Steve Smith looking pretty good. Then again, he moved Mathias Kiwanuka from DE to OLB with mixed results at best, and he didn't bring in a quality fourth DE. I sure hope DE isn't one of his blind spots, but even if it is, Osi, Tuck and Kiwi are still young.

The biggest move I want to see is moving Kiwanuka back to DE. When Reggie Torbor stepping in is a clear upgrade, there is a gaping hole in your defense.

[Omniscient]

On this topic I decided to do some digging and look at Jerry Angelo's track record with RBs.

It appears that his first draft pick was in 1986 for Tampa Bay, one Bo Jackson, selected #1 overall. Bo didn't want to play for the Bucs and decided to play baseball instead. I wonder if that bad experience has turned Jerry into a bitter, angry, scorned lover when it comes to scouting RBs. Every time he tries to turn on tape of a college running back his lips begin to quiver and his hands clench and unclench before he whips the remote against the wall and storms out.

Since that Bo Jackson debacle he's drafted exactly 20 RBs in 21 seasons making up this immortal list:

Mike Crawford, Steve Bartalo, Don Smith, William Howard, Lars Tate, Patrick Egu, Jamie Lawson, Derrick Douglas, Reggie Cobb, Mazio Royster, Rudy Harris, Errict Rhett, Warrick Dunn, Autry Denson, Anthony Thomas, Adrian Peterson, Brock Forsey, Cedric Benson, J.D. Runnels, Garrett Wolfe.

I mean, wow, that throws it into contrast don't it?

His track record of first rounders, which should be the closest to a sure thing, was Bo, who he couldn't even convince to show up. Warrick Dunn, who has been pretty solid but probably not worthy of a 12th overall pick. And finally the corpse known as Cedric Benson with the 4th overall pick. Nice job Jerry!

[Ellis Dee]

Mike Crawford, Steve Bartalo, Don Smith, William Howard, Lars Tate, Patrick Egu, Jamie Lawson, Derrick Douglas, Reggie Cobb, Mazio Royster, Rudy Harris, Errict Rhett, Warrick Dunn, Autry Denson, Anthony Thomas, Adrian Peterson, Brock Forsey, Cedric Benson, J.D. Runnels, Garrett Wolfe.Wow. Just...wow.

[Omniscient]

I feel like the disaster that has been Bears quarterbacking under Angelo should probably be mentioned as well, I mean we did just resign Rex Grossman afterall.

Jerry's history of QB selections:

Mike Shula, Vinny Testaverde, Pat O'Hara, Mike Pawlawski, Craig Erickson, Trent Dilfer, Shaun King, Joe Hamilton, Rex Grossman, Craig Krenzel, Kyle Orton.

I'll give him props for Vinny, but generally this confirms the point that there's inverse relationship between time spent touching the ball and Jerry's ability to evaluate them. Not sure he wants to put that on his next CV.

[gonzomax]

I got everyone beat...I'm a Dolphins fan. When your team is absolute shit, there's only one way to go, and that is up (or so I hope). And when your team is 1-15, the most exciting time of year is the draft.

#1 pick: They have so many holes, it's hard to know what to do with it. Ideally, they could trade down to a mid-first and pick up some later picks too. But, ever since Jimmy Johnson's Cowboys raped the Minnesotta Vikings in exchange for Herschel Walker, I just don't think a blockbuster pick swap is ever going to be forthcoming.

In that light, I think the best hope is to pick the best player out there; I'm hoping for LSU's Glen Dorsey. Maybe a stud defensive lineman would entice Jason Taylor to stick it out for another few years.
Only one way to go is up? The Lions have stayed down for 40 years. Crappy level to maintain but we can do it. You can stay down a long time with bad management and crappy coaching.

[furt]

Iggles fan here.

Much as I hate to say it because it makes the Philly talk-radio jackballs think they've won, I think it might be time for the Kevin Kolb era.

if we can get a good package of picks, we should take it.

[Omniscient]

if we can get a good package of picks, we should take it.
There's the rub. I think McNabb's time in Philly is done, but the Eagles are asking for multiple first-round picks from a team who's getting the privilege of paying injury prone McNabb $10 million a year. Not too many franchises are going to make that move. At this point in his career McNabb is seriously overpaid, for a team to acquire him they are essentially doing the Eagles a favor. If I were a GM I'd tell the Iggles to eat shit if they asked for a bundle of draft picks.

[Oslo Ostragoth]

Is this to be about free agency or trades or whatever, and specifically excluding the draft?

[Ellis Dee]

Is this to be about free agency or trades or whatever, and specifically excluding the draft?The separation is temporal, not topical. So here is fine for draft discussion, but as we move into April look for a dedicated draft thread. Those usually turn into a multi-page play-by-play commentaries while the draft is happening.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

On this topic I decided to do some digging and look at Jerry Angelo's track record with RBs.

It appears that his first draft pick was in 1986 for Tampa Bay, one Bo Jackson, selected #1 overall. Bo didn't want to play for the Bucs and decided to play baseball instead. I wonder if that bad experience has turned Jerry into a bitter, angry, scorned lover when it comes to scouting RBs. Every time he tries to turn on tape of a college running back his lips begin to quiver and his hands clench and unclench before he whips the remote against the wall and storms out.

Since that Bo Jackson debacle he's drafted exactly 20 RBs in 21 seasons making up this immortal list:

Mike Crawford, Steve Bartalo, Don Smith, William Howard, Lars Tate, Patrick Egu, Jamie Lawson, Derrick Douglas, Reggie Cobb, Mazio Royster, Rudy Harris, Errict Rhett, Warrick Dunn, Autry Denson, Anthony Thomas, Adrian Peterson, Brock Forsey, Cedric Benson, J.D. Runnels, Garrett Wolfe.

I mean, wow, that throws it into contrast don't it?

His track record of first rounders, which should be the closest to a sure thing, was Bo, who he couldn't even convince to show up. Warrick Dunn, who has been pretty solid but probably not worthy of a 12th overall pick. And finally the corpse known as Cedric Benson with the 4th overall pick. Nice job Jerry!

The Bears shouldn't have let Thomas Jones go....
And Grossman indeed sucks.
Da Bears have a good to great defense...if their top secondary players stop getting hurt for long stretches.
Their offense is in a world of hurt right now, with Benson, Grossman and an underwhelming WR cadre.
I wonder if the Bears will look to draft a QB high or if they will go FA...McNabb would be an upgrade if available, but SO costly it may not be worth it.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Iggles fan here.

Much as I hate to say it because it makes the Philly talk-radio jackballs think they've won, I think it might be time for the Kevin Kolb era.

if we can get a good package of picks, we should take it.
You're awfully polite...you sure you're an Eagles fan?
:D
<<ducks batteries>>

[Slacker]

Dish Network is moving the NFL Network up a tier, apparently in retaliation for the NFL allowing other networks to carry the Giants/Patriots game in week 17 last year.

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6534071.html?industryid=47199

Fortunately I'm safe, as I'm a Top 200 subscriber already for many compelling reasons*.



*Ok I admit it. It's pretty much just so we can watch Project Runway, ok?

[Really Not All That Bright]

I wonder if the Bears will look to draft a QB high or if they will go FA...McNabb would be an upgrade if available, but SO costly it may not be worth it.
Meh. Flash back to the first half of 2006, when McNabb was turning out what might have ended up as the finest statistical season by a QB ever, and doing it with a really, really weak receiving corps.

If he can be 75% of that guy, he'll be worth every penny.

[Omniscient]

If he can be 75% of that guy, he'll be worth every penny.

$10 Million a year and losing multiple first round draft picks? For a guy who's missed 15 games over his last 3 seasons? With a career 58% completion percentage?

Please put your name in consideration for the Packers GM job, please...

[Omniscient]

The Bears shouldn't have let Thomas Jones go....

Nah, that wasn't the problem. I loved Thomas Jones but the guy was over the hill. His numbers last season were nothing special and you could see him losing a step in his final season with the Bears. He stopped getting to the corner and was always getting run down from behind, plus the Jets get to pay him $5 million a year until he's 33 years old. The Bears let him go at the right time. The problem is that they had no plan to replace him. Well, actually the plan was Benson, so they just had a shitty plan to replace him.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Nah, that wasn't the problem. I loved Thomas Jones but the guy was over the hill. His numbers last season were nothing special and you could see him losing a step in his final season with the Bears. He stopped getting to the corner and was always getting run down from behind, plus the Jets get to pay him $5 million a year until he's 33 years old. The Bears let him go at the right time. The problem is that they had no plan to replace him. Well, actually the plan was Benson, so they just had a shitty plan to replace him.
Well, last season he played for a really marginal team. If I recall correctly, Benson was anointed the starter at the beginning of 2006, but was hurt, and when he got healthy he couldn't win the job back from Jones (entirely).
Jones seemed to suit the Bears that year, and found the endzone quite a bit, AFAIK.
It seemed to me at the time a mistake to cut him loose, but maybe only because their insurance plan, as you said, was shitty.

They really do need to settle their QB issue though. Grossman looked horrible in the Superbowl last year, and always seemed to be either hurt or wildly inconsistent before that.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Any Bengals fans out there in the cybersphere?

[Really Not All That Bright]

$10 Million a year and losing multiple first round draft picks? For a guy who's missed 15 games over his last 3 seasons? With a career 58% completion percentage?

Please put your name in consideration for the Packers GM job, please...
I didn't say he'd be worth the draft picks. I said he'd be worth the money.

And yes, for that guy.

Try to keep in mind that he had James Thrash as his #1 WR for three or four years when considering his completion percentage.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I didn't say he'd be worth the draft picks. I said he'd be worth the money.

And yes, for that guy.

Try to keep in mind that he had James Thrash as his #1 WR for three or four years when considering his completion percentage.
I recall a conversation I had with a friend about whether the WR makes the QB or the other way around. He would point to Brady in 2006 and say "he had nobody to throw to!"...and then we would always gravitate to the similar situation in Philly...I mean, Freddie Mitchell? Thrash? Blech.
If it weren't for McNabb and Westbrook, the Iggles wouldn't have any offense at all.

[Omniscient]

I didn't say he'd be worth the draft picks. I said he'd be worth the money.
Can't have one without the other.

And yes, for that guy.

McNabb makes as much as Tom Brady (and Chad Pennington, ouch).

Try to keep in mind that he had James Thrash as his #1 WR for three or four years when considering his completion percentage.

He also got to dump it to Westbrook 8 times a game too. He's in a pretty completion friendly scheme, which make those numbers more troublesome. I think McNabb has gotten somewhat of a bad rap over these last few years, but the injury history and the diminished mobility make him a liability at that price. If anyone were to pick him up you'd better be in the Super Bowl for the next 2 or 3 years because you'll be in salary cap hell for the following 3.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I recall a conversation I had with a friend about whether the WR makes the QB or the other way around. He would point to Brady in 2006 and say "he had nobody to throw to!"...and then we would always gravitate to the similar situation in Philly...I mean, Freddie Mitchell? Thrash? Blech.
If it weren't for McNabb and Westbrook, the Iggles wouldn't have any offense at all.
And for most of his career, he hasn't even had Westbrook (well, he was a spot player for a long time). He had Duce Staley, who couldn't catch a pass with a baseball mitt.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

And for most of his career, he hasn't even had Westbrook (well, he was a spot player for a long time). He had Duce Staley, who couldn't catch a pass with a baseball mitt.
In Duce's defense, it really is hard to catch a football with a baseball mitt.
I've tried.
:)
But I know what you're saying.
I always felt kinda bad for Correll Buckhalter. If he had been able to stay healthy I think he was the superior back to Duce.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I always felt kinda bad for Correll Buckhalter. If he had been able to stay healthy I think he was the superior back to Duce.
Superior, yes, but I've never seen him as a featured back-type. A solid runner, but absolutely no big-play ability. As it stands, though, I think he's perfect for his cuurrent role as a backup who gets to start twice a year.

Here's a question: what will become of Cadillac Williams? I'm a Bucs fan, and I love the guy, but I don't see him remaining on the roster for more than a year :(

[Omniscient]

Here's a question: what will become of Cadillac Williams? I'm a Bucs fan, and I love the guy, but I don't see him remaining on the roster for more than a year :(

We'll trade ya for one barely used former Texas RB.

[Really Not All That Bright]

We'll trade ya for one barely used former Texas RB.
You can keep him. Our Auburn boy is an even worse injury risk but at least he runs hard....

[EsotericEnigma]

He also got to dump it to Westbrook 8 times a game too. He's in a pretty completion friendly scheme, which make those numbers more troublesome. I think McNabb has gotten somewhat of a bad rap over these last few years, but the injury history and the diminished mobility make him a liability at that price. If anyone were to pick him up you'd better be in the Super Bowl for the next 2 or 3 years because you'll be in salary cap hell for the following 3.

As was mentioned earlier, Westbrook, just over the last couple years, became more than just a change of pace/third down RB.

McNabb is in a completion friendly scheme...excepting of course that your WRs absolutely need to be able to make separation in a timing based system. Philly has had exactly one WR who could consistently create separation in McNabb's career. Funny that he posted an exceptional, career-high, completion percentage the one year he got to play with a WR who actually had talent. And what's the bar for completion percentage anyway?

McNabb is a huge injury risk, and his career completion percentage isn't stellar, but this is still an elite QB with one of the NFL's all time best TD-INT ratios. Why doesn't he get any credit? Why do people still consider him a "mobile QB?" Nothing in football confuses me more than people's opinions of McNabb.

Fans really want Kevin Kolb? Has he proven anything? What about AJ Feeley (who blew the Patriots game)? Why go back to an unproven QB making rookie mistakes? I don't get it, this isn't rocket surgery. You want a QB who limits his mistakes and can make plays. So you don't want McNabb (who is good at both), but you DO want Kolb, who by everyone's estimation was a reach in the second round of the draft, and played at a mid-major with one of those "passer-friendly-schemes" we all hear about that doesn't help when adjusting to the Pros. Great.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

The Lions released Fernando Bryant. Our best cornerback, who was really looking pretty solid and was above average against the run is gone. For nothing.

If we're gearing up to sign Asante Samuel, I may jab my eyes out with a plastic fork.

Can't we just draft two or three cornerbacks and have kept Bryant? I hate life.

[Omniscient]

Uh oh. I'm starting to get a bit of a man-crush on Joe Flacco. He's performing great at the combine and has climbed up into that middle-second round range right where the Bears could grab him. Some people are speculating that the Bears might trade up to get Ryan if he slides into that 5 or 6 range, I'd prefer to get Flacco in the 2nd but odds are too good that another team will take him first. April 26th will be a stressful day.

Perfect world we get Ryan Clady at #14 and Joe Flacco at #44. Seems like a pipe dream though since both the Ravens and Panthers have basically the same needs we do and they draft ahead of us.

[SenorBeef]

I've always thought completion percentage was an extremely overrated stat and I tend not even to think about it when evaluating QBs. Yards per attempt is a much much more valuable indicator and yet doesn't get a fraction of the publicity and discussion that completion percentage does.

I would guess that completion percentage only loosely correlates to a quarterback's accuracy - the scheme they're working in, play calling, and receivers are a huge factor. You could take a 58% completion percentage to a 63% percentage by throwing two more flare passes to the RB per game.

McNabb is a bit odd. I feel that he's underrated because when he's on, he's one of the best. But that hasn't happened much since 2006.

I don't know the situation in Philly, but I'd guess that dumping McNabb is going to send them to last place in their division. You can't count on some 3rd or 4th round quality QB prospect to step in and replace a guy who's really really good sometimes.

That said, I wouldn't trade high picks or want that contract either. Maybe a 2nd round pick if I were Minnesota... or possibly Chicago or Baltimore, depending on their cap situations.

[Omniscient]

... or possibly Chicago or Baltimore, depending on their cap situations.

We just signed Grossman for $3 Million (plus $2M in incentives) for 2008. Orton is in talks to get a one-year extension to his current deal which would lock him up until 2009 and the dollar figures are expected to be in the same ballpark as Grossman's deal. That means the Bears are likely to be on the hook for at least $5 million, and as much as $8 million, at the QB position in 2008. Bringing in McNabb's $10 million would take the Bears investment to QBs up to $15+ million, about 14% of their cap. That would make it very unlikely that they'd be able to resign Berrian or Briggs and would make adding another WR impossible. Combined with giving up draft picks it's simply not going to happen unless McNabb agrees to a big pay cut.

So who's been following the Combine and getting itchy for the draft?

[Ellis Dee]

I'd guess that dumping McNabb is going to send them to last place in their division.They're already there. The Giants, Cowboys and Redskins all made the playoffs last year.

[Ellis Dee]

So who's been following the Combine and getting itchy for the draft?I'm inexplicably jacked for both free agency and the draft. Free agency starts on Friday, yes?

You'd think I'd just be basking in the glow and not thinking about anything other than that shiny new trophy the G-Men just brought home. While there is definitely a lot of that going on, I'm really exceited about seeing who they bring in despite having very few areas of need, lacking the fire-sale roster exodus that so often kills Superbowl winners.

And the post I just made brought me way more pleasure than it should have.

[Omniscient]

I'm inexplicably jacked for both free agency and the draft. Free agency starts on Friday, yes?

Yes, yes it does. Going to be a very interesting first week of March I wager.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

We just signed Grossman for $3 Million (plus $2M in incentives) for 2008. Orton is in talks to get a one-year extension to his current deal which would lock him up until 2009 and the dollar figures are expected to be in the same ballpark as Grossman's deal. That means the Bears are likely to be on the hook for at least $5 million, and as much as $8 million, at the QB position in 2008. Bringing in McNabb's $10 million would take the Bears investment to QBs up to $15+ million, about 14% of their cap. That would make it very unlikely that they'd be able to resign Berrian or Briggs and would make adding another WR impossible. Combined with giving up draft picks it's simply not going to happen unless McNabb agrees to a big pay cut.

So who's been following the Combine and getting itchy for the draft?


I'm starting to get The Itch. I now want a buttload of cornerbacks, starting with Kansas' Aquib Talib.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

I now have a slight football lust for Josh Johnson.

[furt]

There's the rub. I think McNabb's time in Philly is done, but the Eagles are asking for multiple first-round picks from a team who's getting the privilege of paying injury prone McNabb $10 million a year. Yep. And actually, first round picks are overrated, given the salary structure.

I'd rather try for a one and two twos, and settle for a one, a two, and a three.

[Omniscient]

Yep. And actually, first round picks are overrated, given the salary structure.
That's only true if you actually use them and sign the player. The Eagles are absolutely better off getting the #1s even if they trade them both ala the Patriots.

[Oslo Ostragoth]

First, please allow me this slight hijack: why is Boise State's field blue?

Back to your regularly scheduled program: there is a lot of good video at nfl.com - top prospects at different positions, scouting reports, interviews, combine results, etc. If anyone has good links for Combine info, please post them.

I'd like to focus on RB for now, because I'm an Illini and think the world of Rashard Mendenhall. McFadden ran a 4.3something, but Rashard clocked a 4.4something and can run with a hell of a lot more power. Why shouldn't he be the first RB taken? Go here (http://www.nfl.com/videos?categoryId=events&filter=combine), and go to the end until you hit "Top 5 running backs".

Finally, my Bears are lopping off some deadwood, but they have to fill the holes with something. Can they?

[Weirddave]

Perfect world we get Ryan Clady at #14 and Joe Flacco at #44. Seems like a pipe dream though since both the Ravens and Panthers have basically the same needs we do and they draft ahead of us.
I don't think the Ravens need a QB. I am perfectly happy with Kyle Boller. He's not a Brady/Farve/Manning superstar; he can't carry a team on his own, but I've been watching him very, very closely since 2005, and when the players around him have put forth even reasonably competent effort, he has produced solid results. Yes, he was up and down last year, but so was McNair and so was Smith, and if you were watching (I was), they were up and down with the team as a whole. I remember one game in particular where Boller looked awful, but watching the line play Ogden(it was right as he came back from injury) was standing an a 2 point stance letting the DE blast by him all day. No QB, I don't care if his name is Unitas, is capable of doing anything when the defensive line is in the pocket before the QB. I have high hopes that Cam Cameron can resurrect Boller's career like he did for Drew Brees. I see the Ravens as having the most pressing need at DE(unless Pryce is healthy), CB, OL and WR, and LB and S depth would be nice. Unfortunately they are in very restrictive cap situation this year, so we'll have to see what they are actually able to do.

[furt]

You're awfully polite...you sure you're an Eagles fan?Meh. I'm in a good mood from that blowjob your mom just gave me.


McNabb is a huge injury risk, and his career completion percentage isn't stellar, but this is still an elite QB with one of the NFL's all time best TD-INT ratios. Why doesn't he get any credit? Why do people still consider him a "mobile QB?" Nothing in football confuses me more than people's opinions of McNabb.Here's the problem: quarterbacks are judged by team success. That probably isn't totally fair, but it is the way it is and it's not going to change.

Let's assume that McNabb comes back this year and plays well. Not Peyton or Brady well, but a 90.0 rating and the Eagles win 10 or 11 games before losing in the second round of the playoffs. Will this be a successful season for the Eagles? No. At this point, for this nucleus of players that McNabb leads, success is a championship and nothing else. Anything less and it's going to be "Once again, Reid and McNabb choke."

The team is in a funk and needs something to be a breath of fresh air. I wouldn't have minded a coaching change, but since it appears that isn't going to happen, the only thing left is the QB. Based on interviews last year, it seems like #5 is kind of wishing for a change of scenery himself.

So long as he's still there, the issue of whether he should go will keep being a distracting issue; and unless he wins a championship, it'll never be more than two bad games from coming back no matter how well he plays. Again; maybe it's not fair or right, but it's the reality of the way things are in Philly at this point.

Fans really want Kevin Kolb? Has he proven anything? What about AJ Feeley (who blew the Patriots game)? Why go back to an unproven QB making rookie mistakes? I don't get it, this isn't rocket surgery. You want a QB who limits his mistakes and can make plays. So you don't want McNabb (who is good at both), but you DO want Kolb, who by everyone's estimation was a reach in the second round of the draft, and played at a mid-major with one of those "passer-friendly-schemes" we all hear about that doesn't help when adjusting to the Pros. Great.Feely was never anything but a backup, and people calling for him are/were idiots. Kolb is an entirely different story, and you are wrong to underestimate him. He was not by "everyone's estimation" a reach; lots of draft boards had him as the 3rd QB. I am not concerned by his conference (6 of the 10 highest rated QBs in the NFL last year came from non-BCS schools) nor by the fact that he ran a spread-type offense in college (Drew Brees, Phillip Rivers, Steve McNair, Vince Young, David Garrard).

More importantly to me, Football Outsiders (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/) have applied objective criteria to QB prospects for the last few seasons, with a good track record of predicting success; they had him as better than Quinn and way better than Russell.

Given a very good QB prospect, given that McNabb seems ready to go, given that his ongoing health issues make him unreliable, given that the team needs a breath of fresh air, given that this is not a creaking old veteran team, but one that actually is set up pretty well to contend for the next few years, and given that I said such a move should happen IF they got good value in trade ... yes, I'm ready to give the new guy a shot.

[furt]

That's only true if you actually use them and sign the player. The Eagles are absolutely better off getting the #1s even if they trade them both ala the Patriots.No, I'd argue they're ONLY better off if they trade them.

If you're going to stipulate that one of the first-rounders is turned around and dealt, fine. But they are not currency, and they are not totally fungible; you might get stuck with those picks, and having (say) four first-rounders in two seasons takes up an enormous chunk of your cap, especially if you're "lucky" enough to have those picks wind up in the top ten.

[EsotericEnigma]

Let's assume that McNabb comes back this year and plays well. Not Peyton or Brady well, but a 90.0 rating and the Eagles win 10 or 11 games before losing in the second round of the playoffs. Will this be a successful season for the Eagles? No. At this point, for this nucleus of players that McNabb leads, success is a championship and nothing else. Anything less and it's going to be "Once again, Reid and McNabb choke."

As much as I tried to admit I would be satisfied with that, I can't. You're right, it wouldn't be enough. But then again, it was tempting, considering that the rest of the division made the playoffs, and the Eagles didn't. I'm not convinced that the Eagles are worse than the other teams in the division. The Eagles split the series with both the Cowboys and Redskins, and should have won the second Giants game. It's going to be a hard fought season, and so I should be satisfied with the playoffs, but I wouldn't be.

Given a very good QB prospect, given that McNabb seems ready to go, given that his ongoing health issues make him unreliable, given that the team needs a breath of fresh air, given that this is not a creaking old veteran team, but one that actually is set up pretty well to contend for the next few years, and given that I said such a move should happen IF they got good value in trade ... yes, I'm ready to give the new guy a shot.

Here's my question. We know what we get with McNabb, we don't with Kolb. Is 10 games of McNabb and a chance at going to the playoffs and competing, better than going through 16 games of an unproven rookie who will make rookie mistakes and cost the team games? Part of the problem with trading McNabb is that you don't know what you're getting back for a long, long time. Chances are, any picks traded for will be busts anyway, and at that point you've already pulled the trigger on McNabb and you can't go back. It's a "bird in the hand" situation. I'm stuck, I don't know. On one hand, I like McNabb and I think he's one of the best in the league, but he IS older, he IS unreliable, he doesn't have the pieces he needs to be really successful, and the team is in arguably the toughest division in football. If the team isn't winning anything anyway, why not develop the kid? Good thing I'm not making the decisions. I wouldn't be able to in this case.

[Ellis Dee]

and the team is in arguably the toughest division in football.I would agree with that, despite the AFC South having a slightly better winning percentage.

When it comes to McNabb, you have to keep and start him one more season. It's almost the equivalent to the Rex Grossman situation, though McNabb's contract is insane. There's no way Kolb is ready to go into camp as the starter this year, so give the keys to McNabb for 2008, and then give them to Kolb as soon as the season ends.

Doing it that way, if Kolb is the real deal you should be able to avoid any rookie mistakes out of him. Look at how Chad Pennington and Philip Rivers did in their first seasons after sitting on the bench for a couple years. There wasn't a single rookie mistake between them.

If McNabb gets hurt, then obviously Kolb's ascension gets accelerated. The bonus from that is if he shows no promise, you'll know in time to do something about it next offseason.

I think Kolb will be good, but then again I thought Losman would be good in Buffalo and Griese would be good in Chicago so what the hell do I know.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Meh. I'm in a good mood from that blowjob your mom just gave me.

Ha! She said you were small, but what does she know, she's a Foreskins fan.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

I don't think the Ravens need a QB. I am perfectly happy with Kyle Boller. He's not a Brady/Farve/Manning superstar; he can't carry a team on his own, but I've been watching him very, very closely since 2005, and when the players around him have put forth even reasonably competent effort, he has produced solid results. Yes, he was up and down last year, but so was McNair and so was Smith, and if you were watching (I was), they were up and down with the team as a whole. I remember one game in particular where Boller looked awful, but watching the line play Ogden(it was right as he came back from injury) was standing an a 2 point stance letting the DE blast by him all day. No QB, I don't care if his name is Unitas, is capable of doing anything when the defensive line is in the pocket before the QB. I have high hopes that Cam Cameron can resurrect Boller's career like he did for Drew Brees. I see the Ravens as having the most pressing need at DE(unless Pryce is healthy), CB, OL and WR, and LB and S depth would be nice. Unfortunately they are in very restrictive cap situation this year, so we'll have to see what they are actually able to do.

As a fan of one of your divisional rivals, I watch your team too and I totally disagree with you on Boller. I believe that one of the reasons Billick and his Ego were given the heave-ho is because of his blind insistence on playing Boller (prior to McNair, who gave you one good year) and his inability to build a respectable offense or develop a young QB.
Your defense has carried your team for quite awhile, and now it's age is beginning to show and that has exposed your underachieving offense.
Now, I am not trying to talk smack here, I'm a Bengals fan and my team has sucked for so long we might as well be the Lions, but we still have some good players and are a defense away from another playoff run.
I think the Ravens and Bengals are in the same situation, but with their glaring issues on opposite sides of the ball.

[Ellis Dee]

Couple links here for the Giants fans.

This blog (http://throwingintotraffic.blogspot.com/2008/02/happily-ever-after.html), written two days after the Superbowl, is an over-the-top gushing of how great the Superbowl was. Decent read for both Giants fans and Patriot haters. The latter should probably bail halfway into it.

This youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2albxi8vMg&NR=1) from the preseason is Coughlin's response to Tiki Barber. heh. Beware of audible cursing.

[EsotericEnigma]

This blog (http://throwingintotraffic.blogspot.com/2008/02/happily-ever-after.html), written two days after the Superbowl, is an over-the-top gushing of how great the Superbowl was.


(As a quick aside)There was once a Super Bowl that came down to a single yard. One more yard and a different team wins. There has been at least one Super Bowl that was won on a last second field goal. Even still, this was probably the best Super Bowl I have ever seen. And that comes from an Eagles fan, so it must have really been something special if I was willing to lower my standards enough to root for the Giants :D

[Ellis Dee]

(As a quick aside)There was once a Super Bowl that came down to a single yard. One more yard and a different team wins. There has been at least one Super Bowl that was won on a last second field goal. Even still, this was probably the best Super Bowl I have ever seen. And that comes from an Eagles fan, so it must have really been something special if I was willing to lower my standards enough to root for the Giants :DHigh praise indeed.

Quick nitpick: the Titans came one yard short of sending the game to overtime, not winning it. They lost by 7.

[furt]

Here's my question. We know what we get with McNabb, we don't with Kolb.Exactly.

Is 10 games of McNabb and a chance at going to the playoffs and competing, better than going through 16 games of an unproven rookie who will make rookie mistakes and cost the team games?Depends on what your goal is. If you measure success by making the playoffs this year, then absolutely you keep McNabb. But if you measure success by winning a championship, then you have to ask yourself whether you see that happening with McNabb. If the answer is "no," then ISTM that at that point you should prefer an unknown quantity.

Part of the problem with trading McNabb is that you don't know what you're getting back for a long, long time. Chances are, any picks traded for will be busts anyway, and at that point you've already pulled the trigger on McNabb and you can't go back. It's a "bird in the hand" situation.I don't see any reason to assume they're all going to be busts; the Eagles draft history under Reid has been average or better. Actually, except for the problems with WRs and LBs, they're as good as anybody. Give them three first day picks, and I'd be surprised if they don't get two good players.

I'm not saying it's an open-and-shut case. Ellis makes some good points about waiting one more year, but 1) I'm skeptical of the idea that guys who sit one year make mistakes as starters, but guys who sit for two don't, and 2) one more less-than-awesome season (Especially if he gets hurt again) and the negative vibes around the situation will be so heavy that they will have very little leverage, and they'll get nothing in return.

Of course, the Giants are the best argument for keeping him. The NFC is weak, and you don't have to be a colossus to win it; and then once in the SB, anything can happen. the Jints were a mess this time last season, and on paper there's at least a half-dozen more talented teams in the league. But they got hot and won when it counted. It's not impossible to imagine the Eagles doing the same.

[Ellis Dee]

Of course, the Giants are the best argument for keeping him. The NFC is weak, and you don't have to be a colossus to win it; and then once in the SB, anything can happen. the Jints were a mess this time last season, and on paper there's at least a half-dozen more talented teams in the league. But they got hot and won when it counted. It's not impossible to imagine the Eagles doing the same.The NFC is not weak. If it were, the AFC would have had a winning record against them, which they did not. The two conferences tied at 32-32 in interconference play.

While I would quibble with your assessment of the Giants and the conference, I wholeheartedly endorse your premise that all you really have to do is get hot when it counts.

[The Tof]

Here is a question.. Chargers are about to let Tomlinsons backup Michael Turner go.

A> Who is going to end up paying him the big bucks (somebody will- the going thought seems to be that he's a starter in backups clothing)

B> Who *wants* their team to pony up the money?

I'm just curious what the perception is out there, if there even is one.

[Ellis Dee]

Here is a question.. Chargers are about to let Tomlinsons backup Michael Turner go.

A> Who is going to end up paying him the big bucks (somebody will- the going thought seems to be that he's a starter in backups clothing)

B> Who *wants* their team to pony up the money?

I'm just curious what the perception is out there, if there even is one.As a secondary Jets fan, I'm drooling over the prospect of Michael "The Burner" Turner wearing Green, and would wholly endorse paying him big money. I'd much rather have Turner than Darren McFadden, who I see as the worst possible cross between Adrian Peterson and Reggie Bush.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Here is a question.. Chargers are about to let Tomlinsons backup Michael Turner go.

A> Who is going to end up paying him the big bucks (somebody will- the going thought seems to be that he's a starter in backups clothing)

B> Who *wants* their team to pony up the money?

I'm just curious what the perception is out there, if there even is one.
That's a good question. I bet lots of teams would be interested, but you're right, he will be expensive.
The Bengals don't do "that free agency thingie", and will likely draft a RB if they feel they need one (which has worked out so well in recent times...Kijana Carter ((1st round, injured, out of NFL)), Chris Perry ((1st rounder, jokingly referred to by many as "Chris Perrenially Injured")), Kenny Irons ((2nd round, torn ACL)) ).
He won't end up here, but it would be nice to replace the aging Rudi Johnson.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

As a secondary Jets fan, I'm drooling over the prospect of Michael "The Burner" Turner wearing Green, and would wholly endorse paying him big money. I'd much rather have Turner than Darren McFadden, who I see as the worst possible cross between Adrian Peterson and Reggie Bush.


..."The worst possible cross between Adrian Peterson and Reggie Bush"? How's that a bad combination under any means?

[Madd Maxx]

..."The worst possible cross between Adrian Peterson and Reggie Bush"? How's that a bad combination under any means?

An oft injured running back with more speed than power? You seriously can't see a problem there? In a league where RB's are over the hill by 30.

[kidchameleon]

They're already there. The Giants, Cowboys and Redskins all made the playoffs last year.

Maybe they'd be so bad we'd have to bring the Cardinals back. :p

[Least Original User Name Ever]

An oft injured running back with more speed than power? You seriously can't see a problem there? In a league where RB's are over the hill by 30.


They're not really all that often injured. Hell, the worst combination of two very good running backs can't be bad. I just don't get the comparison, that's all.

[furt]

They're not really all that often injured. Hell, the worst combination of two very good running backs can't be bad. I just don't get the comparison, that's all.Reggie Bush is not a very good running back at the NFL level; he is average at best.

Hence, the point is that Ellis sees an overhyped back who isn't that good and is injury-prone to boot.

Not sure I agree in this case, but RBs with injury histories are a very risky investment.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

I am perfectly happy with Kyle Boller.

Thank you for making this Browns fan's day just a little bit merrier.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

There are some draft analysts that think Mendenhall will be a better pro back than McFadden due to body size/structure.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

There are some draft analysts that think Mendenhall will be a better pro back than McFadden due to body size/structure.


I think Jonathan Stewart is going to be the best back this year. He was the MVP of that Oregon Ducks squad, in my opinion.

furt, I get what he was trying to say, but I just think the allusion was a little unwieldy.

[dalej42]

Maybe they'd be so bad we'd have to bring the Cardinals back. :p

You get to play the Cardinals in the divisional rotation this year. I expect the Cards to beat the Eagles and Skins and be very competitive against the Giants and Cowboys.

[Really Not All That Bright]

As a secondary Jets fan, I'm drooling over the prospect of Michael "The Burner" Turner wearing Green, and would wholly endorse paying him big money. I'd much rather have Turner than Darren McFadden, who I see as the worst possible cross between Adrian Peterson and Reggie Bush.
You already had Michael Turner. His name was LaMont Jordan, and you let him walk in free agency.

Don't expect big things from Turner. Tatum Bell averaged over 5 YPC as a backup too, y'know.

More importantly, I'm willing to bet Kevin Smith outperforms every other rookie running back this season, assuming he gets drafted by a team that actually needs a back.

Led the nation in carries, yards and touchdowns and set the #2 all-time mark for rushing yardage - and he wasn't even a Doak Walker finalist. F**k you, SMU.

There are some draft analysts that think Mendenhall will be a better pro back than McFadden due to body size/structure.
Meaningless. On that basis, the Eagles will cut Brian Westbrook tomorrow to free up the cap room to sign Duce Staley. Hell, Butch Davis coached Clinton Portis, but passed on him in the draft to take William Green - because he didn't think Portis was big enough to handle the cold-weather conditions in Cleveland.
Portis, for those of you who forgot, was Rookie of the Year - in Denver.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

I'm willing to take you up on that Kevin Smith thing, by the way.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Well, for my part, you can count me as one of the few here who thinks the best back in this year's draft is... Darren McFadden.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I'm willing to take you up on that Kevin Smith thing, by the way.
Okay. Shall we say winner gets to pick the loser's new username? :D

[Weirddave]

Thank you for making this Browns fan's day just a little bit merrier.
You're welcome, but he's a much better QB than DA is. If Boller had been your QB, with the line and receiving talent y'all have, you'd have made the playoffs last year.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Well, for my part, you can count me as one of the few here who thinks the best back in this year's draft is... Darren McFadden.


Law of averages. Not very often does the consensus number one back come out and crush it that first year. Oh, a rookie running back has the best chance to succeed in the pros out of any other rookie position, but I'd put my money on a "lesser" back.

[Really Not All That Bright]

You're welcome, but he's a much better QB than DA is. If Boller had been your QB, with the line and receiving talent y'all have, you'd have made the playoffs last year.
I see you guys have the good crack up in Baltimore.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Okay. Shall we say winner gets to pick the loser's new username? :D


Well, I can't really top yours....


I kid. That works for me.




Of course, what do we base it on? Yardage? Win/loss record of team? Total touchdowns?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Of course, what do we base it on? Yardage? Win/loss record of team? Total touchdowns?
Hmm...

Offensive Rookie of the Year voting? If no RB gets any votes, we call it a push...

Otherwise I'd say total yards from scrimmage.

[Weirddave]

I see you guys have the good crack up in Baltimore.
Yea, I know. You hate Kyle Boller. You've been saying it for years. I get it.


You're flat out wrong though. Boller is a better QB than DA. Put him on a team that (last year) had a better line the Ravens, with a better TE (Heap was out all year) and talented #1 WR (instead of young #2s with upside and old #2s with experience and not much else) and I'm telling you he gets the Clowns to the postseason. I spent the whole season watching not the QB (any of them) but the play around them. If you do that it becomes crystal clear when the main problem was with the '07 Ravens, and it isn't named Kyle, Steve or Troy.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Hmm...

Offensive Rookie of the Year voting? If no RB gets any votes, we call it a push...

Otherwise I'd say total yards from scrimmage.


That's about as good as any. I like the yards from scrimmage.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Yea, I know. You hate Kyle Boller. You've been saying it for years. I get it.


You're flat out wrong though. Boller is a better QB than DA. Put him on a team that (last year) had a better line the Ravens, with a better TE (Heap was out all year) and talented #1 WR (instead of young #2s with upside and old #2s with experience and not much else) and I'm telling you he gets the Clowns to the postseason. I spent the whole season watching not the QB (any of them) but the play around them. If you do that it becomes crystal clear when the main problem was with the '07 Ravens, and it isn't named Kyle, Steve or Troy.
Dude, I said it once. In 2004. How the hell did you remember that? I had to search to figure out what you were talking about, and even then I didn't remember that thread until I got to page 2ish and the "monkeys flinging poo" part.

That's about as good as any. I like the yards from scrimmage.
If he doesn't start a game, it's a push, fair?

[Least Original User Name Ever]

<snip>

If he doesn't start a game, it's a push, fair?

I'd say so. So, for the bet to be valid, he has to start at least one game and also have more total yards from scrimmage than any other rookie running back, yes?

[Weirddave]

Dude, I said it once. In 2004. How the hell did you remember that? I had to search to figure out what you were talking about, and even then I didn't remember that thread until I got to page 2ish and the "monkeys flinging poo" part.



Hehe. Wanna know how I remembered that? I thought "Boy, what an appropriate user name (WRT your opinion of Boller)" and it's stuck for 4 years. You made an impression! :)

[Really Not All That Bright]

I'd say so. So, for the bet to be valid, he has to start at least one game and also have more total yards from scrimmage than any other rookie running back, yes?
Well, for the bet to not be cancelled, he has to start a game (since I did say if he goes to a team that actually needs a back)... and for me to win, he has to have more yards from scrimmage than any other rookie tailback (or fullback, I suppose).

I was going to ask for it to be a push if he gets hurt in week 2 or something, but one of his selling points is that he's never been seriously injured.

Hehe. Wanna know how I remembered that? I thought "Boy, what an appropriate user name (WRT your opinion of Boller)" and it's stuck for 4 years. You made an impression!
Maybe I wouldn't mind losing this bet to LOUNE, then...

I still think you were being the dick in that thread, not me.... but on the other hand I was wrong about Boller getting benched midseason (although with 13 total TD passes on the year, maybe that says more about Billick than Boller).

Plus, I definitely believe Boller gives the Ravens a much better shot to win than what's left of Steve McNair. Troy Smith I haven't seen enough of yet.

[Ellis Dee]

They're not really all that often injured. Hell, the worst combination of two very good running backs can't be bad. I just don't get the comparison, that's all.I meant "combine the promise of Peterson with the letdown of Bush."

I expect him to be a good back, which is why I phrased it as the worst possible combination of a great back and an above-average back. I don't expect him to be a great back, so I very much don't want the Jets to spend a top 10 pick on him.

Gang Green hasn't had the best track record with top 10 picks of late. Dewayne Robertson (#4 overall) is about to be cut because Mangini can't grasp the 4-3, and D'Brickashaw Ferguson (also #4 overall) isn't looking particularly worth his contract.

The last thing I want is another great NCAA talent picked way too high based on potential and promise only to be "decent" in the pros. That's the main reason I'm so thrilled that Big Blue picks last; late first rounders seem to turn into better picks, like Aaron Ross for the G-Men or Nick Mangold, the Jets center they took later in the same round they got Ferguson. While Mangold isn't setting the league on fire either, he's looked better than Brick.

I wouldn't mind trading up with Miami to get Ryan. I was a big fan of Kellen Clemens until I saw him play. ("The backup quarterback is always the most popular guy in town.")

[Least Original User Name Ever]

I meant "combine the promise of Peterson with the letdown of Bush."

I expect him to be a good back, which is why I phrased it as the worst possible combination of a great back and an above-average back. I don't expect him to be a great back, so I very much don't want the Jets to spend a top 10 pick on him.

Gang Green hasn't had the best track record with top 10 picks of late. Dewayne Robertson (#4 overall) is about to be cut because Mangini can't grasp the 4-3, and D'Brickashaw Ferguson (also #4 overall) isn't looking particularly worth his contract.

The last thing I want is another great NCAA talent picked way too high based on potential and promise only to be "decent" in the pros. That's the main reason I'm so thrilled that Big Blue picks last; late first rounders seem to turn into better picks, like Aaron Ross for the G-Men or Nick Mangold, the Jets center they took later in the same round they got Ferguson. While Mangold isn't setting the league on fire either, he's looked better than Brick.

I wouldn't mind trading up with Miami to get Ryan. I was a big fan of Kellen Clemens until I saw him play. ("The backup quarterback is always the most popular guy in town.")


That makes a lot more sense.


I'm not high on any of the quarterbacks in this draft. I like Josh Johnson, but more as an athlete or a project than someone that's NFL ready. Maybe the one I like most is Joe Flacco, with regards to being NFL ready. I'm kinda digging Brian Brohm too, but I fear that he's a system quarterback. I think Colt Brennan might make himself look better than people originally thought.


By the way, your running back comparison is much better now. thanks for clearing it up.

[Ellis Dee]

I'm not high on any of the quarterbacks in this draft.Thank god I'm first and foremost a Giants fan, because not only do I agree that the quarterbacks in the draft aren't any great shakes, and not only do I think the free agents available are also crap, but I don't think the quarterbacks the Jets already have are any good either.

If they traded up to get Ryan, at least I could tell myself that they see something in him and it will be worth it. Eli is only worth the trade made to get him because of his Superbowl MVP; if he'd won it without distinguishing himself, then it still wouldn't have been worth it when Accorsi could've just drafted Ben and been done with it.

But that trade moved the Giants up from #4 to #1. Moving up from #6 to #1 for Ryan strikes me as a really bad idea, since I don't see any QB in the draft or free agency as being anyone more special than Alex Smith.

Speaking of Alex Smith, are there any 49ers fans here who can talk about the extension Smith just got? I wasn't stunned by the news only because I don't really care about the '9ers. But I was as surprised as you get. I have him pegged as a David Carr / Tim Couch type bust.

[SenorBeef]

And..... free agency!

Rumor that the Packers are trading Corey Williams to the Browns tonight. Interesting.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Thank god I'm first and foremost a Giants fan, because not only do I agree that the quarterbacks in the draft aren't any great shakes, and not only do I think the free agents available are also crap, but I don't think the quarterbacks the Jets already have are any good either.

If they traded up to get Ryan, at least I could tell myself that they see something in him and it will be worth it. Eli is only worth the trade made to get him because of his Superbowl MVP; if he'd won it without distinguishing himself, then it still wouldn't have been worth it when Accorsi could've just drafted Ben and been done with it.

But that trade moved the Giants up from #4 to #1. Moving up from #6 to #1 for Ryan strikes me as a really bad idea, since I don't see any QB in the draft or free agency as being anyone more special than Alex Smith.

Speaking of Alex Smith, are there any 49ers fans here who can talk about the extension Smith just got? I wasn't stunned by the news only because I don't really care about the '9ers. But I was as surprised as you get. I have him pegged as a David Carr / Tim Couch type bust.

Now, now, now. Let's not go sucking each other's dicks just yet. I'm REALLY not sold on Eli yet. Let's see if he can follow it up with a solid season.

I think Martz likes Alex Smith. That's why there's the extension. If you recall, Martz came into Detroit and they got rid of Joey Harrington.

[SenorBeef]

Anderson turned down a 3 year deal with 20m with 10m guaranteed. Really crazy, unless there's been some tampering and he knows there's interest in him.

He could be trying to hit UFA next year but since he may not even be the starting QB this year, this leaves the possibility that he knows a team will be willing to give him a big contract and compensate the Browns for him.

Also, GMs and by extension knowledgable fans way overvalue draft picks. The rumor is Corey Williams to the Browns for a late 2nd rounder. People were objecting to giving up the pick.... if you could find someone as good as Corey Williams at that pick, you'd be really happy - so why not just take Williams?

[Ellis Dee]

Now, now, now. Let's not go sucking each other's dicks just yet. I'm REALLY not sold on Eli yet. Let's see if he can follow it up with a solid season.It doesn't matter what he does in the future, he won a Superbowl. He's already a New York immortal alongside Phil Simms. I'm not saying he's a top 5 QB yet; I'm saying that he has proven to be worth the trade that brought him to New York.

Tell me you wouldn't trade two 1sts plus a 3rd and a 5th if it would bring the Lions a Lombardi trophy.

[Hamlet]

Also, GMs and by extension knowledgable fans way overvalue draft picks. The rumor is Corey Williams to the Browns for a late 2nd rounder. People were objecting to giving up the pick.... if you could find someone as good as Corey Williams at that pick, you'd be really happy - so why not just take Williams?I heard that too. They still have to work out a long term contract, but I can't imagine that would be problem.

I think the trade is one of those that is a win/win/win. For Corey, he gets a fat new contract and the adulation (and pressure) of being a vital cog to a team. (but he does have to leave beautiful Green Bay for *ugh* Cleveland). For the Browns, they get a young, very good lineman to shore up their horrible run defense. He can also get to the passer from the inside pretty well also. And giving up only a second rounder, is pretty good price. They are taking a risk, because I think the contract is going to be pretty hefty for a guy who has only 20 starts in 4 years. But he is a hard worker, if a bit flaky. For the Packers, they get a second rounder for a guy who plays at a position the team has some pretty good depth and who was gotten in the 6th round originally. It's a bit of a risk, because of Pickett's age and Jolly's injury, but they drafted Justin Harrell in the first round last year and they have Jenkins who can play inside too. They generally rotate DT's, so the loss of Williams, even though he's good, isn't a killer. And now they don't have to overpay for him.

I think if the Browns don't mind a bit of overspending and the Packers avoid injuries on the defensive line, it's a good trade for everyone.

[Hamlet]

Is there any team in the NFL more effed up than the Oakland Raiders?

I ask because of their latest move was to sign DT Tommy Kelly to a record breaking $50.5 million dollar contract, with $18.5 million guaranteed, making him the highest paid defensive lineman in the NFL. Which leaves only one question.

Who the fuck is Tommy Kelly?

Never recorded over 70 tackles a season.
Never recorded over 5 sacks a season.
Went undrafted in 2004.
Has only played one full season.
Is coming off a torn ACL that ended his season last year.
Even when healthy and starting, the Raiders were 25th against the run.
Has never been to a Pro Bowl.
Meanwhile, the Raiders leader in sacks is a free agent.


Oh Raiders. When will you ever win?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Oh Raiders. When will you ever win?
When Al Davis retires/dies, and not before.

I'm not that surprised about the Anderson deal. The only quarterback in recent memory who's managed to keep a first-rounder on the bench for more than two seasons is Brett Favre - and I think Anderson knows he isn't Brett Favre.

Much better to get a long-term deal with $10+ million guaranteed somewhere else; tell me the Falcons or Bears won't pony up more than $20 million for him.

Tell me you wouldn't trade two 1sts plus a 3rd and a 5th if it would bring the Lions a Lombardi trophy.
I know I would. Hell, we sent the Raiders more than that for Jon Gruden - two 1st rounders, two 2nd rounders, and $8 million.

[furt]

It doesn't matter what he does in the future, he won a Superbowl. He's already a New York immortal alongside Phil Simms. I have a feeling you're going to be having a lot of heated discussions with fellow NYG fans in the years to come. As happy as I was for Eli to be able to shove it in the face of all his critics, I have a feeling that from now on he's going to dealing with even more unrealistic expectations.


And Really Not All That Bright, I think you're making a "wish" bet. I was at every UCF home game and I'm a big fan, but I'd be stunned if Kevin Smith has a huge rookie year. Keep in mind that this is a guy only 3 years removed from being a high school DB, and has spent that time as the feature back in an I-formation offense. NFL coaches are going to be very cautious about having that guy be the only thing between their franchise QB and a blitz.

He's likely going in the middle rounds to a team that already has a solid #1; throw in the fact that he does not have return skills, and I think you run the real risk of him getting one or two starts via injury, but not getting on the field the rest of the season.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

It doesn't matter what he does in the future, he won a Superbowl. He's already a New York immortal alongside Phil Simms. I'm not saying he's a top 5 QB yet; I'm saying that he has proven to be worth the trade that brought him to New York.

Tell me you wouldn't trade two 1sts plus a 3rd and a 5th if it would bring the Lions a Lombardi trophy.


I'd make that trade if I were getting that defense. The defense is what did it in the Super Bowl, not Eli. Again, I hope I'm wrong and I hope Eli makes the leap and gets rid of his inconsistencies. We need more good quarterbacks in the league.

[furt]

Is there any team in the NFL more effed up than the Oakland Raiders?Sweet God, it must suck to be Raider fan these days.

[Really Not All That Bright]

And Really Not All That Bright, I think you're making a "wish" bet. I was at every UCF home game and I'm a big fan, but I'd be stunned if Kevin Smith has a huge rookie year. Keep in mind that this is a guy only 3 years removed from being a high school DB, and has spent that time as the feature back in an I-formation offense. NFL coaches are going to be very cautious about having that guy be the only thing between their franchise QB and a blitz.
Eh?

They ran plays out of the shotgun at least 25% of the time - including rushes. I'd say, if anything, that blitz pickup is one of his strengths. If he has a weakness it's running pass patterns - I don't think I saw him run anything other than flares and short screens last season.

Also, I get that he wasn't playing against "top tier" competition most of the year (although remember he put 150 yards on Texas), but C-USA was much better last season than it was a couple years back when DeAngelo Williams was in serious contention for the Heisman.

[furt]

They ran plays out of the shotgun at least 25% of the time - including rushes. I'd say, if anything, that blitz pickup is one of his strengths. If he has a weakness it's running pass patterns - I don't think I saw him run anything other than flares and short screens last season.Yes, they ran plays from the shotgun -- and as you correctly point out many of them were runs, not passes; moreover many of the passes were play-action out of the gun, basically the WV/Oklahoma spread stuff that's the rage now in college football. (and which, BTW, I think we'll see a even more of at UCF in the next couple years) You don't have those offenses in the NFL. You do see a lot of Bill Walsh stuff, and that's very different from what UCF ran.

Also, I get that he wasn't playing against "top tier" competition most of the year (although remember he put 150 yards on Texas), but C-USA was much better last season than it was a couple years back when DeAngelo Williams was in serious contention for the Heisman.I didn't mention the level of competition; I don't think that's a big issue, except insofar as it affects his draft status. Statistically, though, C-USA was much, MUCH worse vs. the run last year that 2 years ago. I think there were something like 4 teams that ran for 200 per game.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

You're welcome, but he's a much better QB than DA is. If Boller had been your QB, with the line and receiving talent y'all have, you'd have made the playoffs last year.
But for Carson Palmer and the gang, of course.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Madieu Williams will sign a big contract with the Vikings...
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2008/02/6-year-deal-for-madieu-with-vikings.asp

WTF? How do you expect to upgrade a piss-poor pass defense using players from another piss-poor pass defense? The Vikings had the best group of safeties in the league the last two years and still couldn't stop anyone. So, they let Dwight Smith go and he signed with the Lions for peanuts... and now they're giving a guy who isn't as good $33 million...

That said, I absolutely cannot understand why the Vikings are so bad at defending the pass. They have spent tons of money acquiring very good players and yet their pass defense has been consistently terrible. I realize that everyone passes against them because the run defense is so good but they play Cover-2 most of the time...

furt, I would be stunned if 24K doesn't go before the 3rd round. Of course, his draft stock will depend a good deal on how good his 40 time at the Combine is, but I think 4.5 or better is likely- he ran a 4.48 as an HS senior. Also, he did play safety in high school, but only during his senior year - he was the starting tailback during his sophomore and junior years.

The pundits seem to agree with me, mostly:
http://www.nfldraftdog.com/2008_nfl_draft/kevin_smith.htm
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=56551
http://www.thefootballexpert.com/kevinsmithprofile080001.html
http://cfn.scout.com/2/719789.html

Remember, he wasn't some sort of "system" guy. The UCF offense is set up to feature short passing; Smith was getting 40 carries a game by midseason only because our pass offense was so weak.

By way of comparison, Daunte (Culpepper)'s numbers were system-based. His NCAA-record 70% career completion percentage was based mostly on the fact that he hardly ever threw a pass downfield. I love Daunte, but I'm firmly convinced that his early success in the NFL had a good deal to do with throwing to Randy Moss and Cris Carter, and less to do with his ability.

I'll go so far as to say I think KS is a better NFL prospect than Culpepper, and I think he may end up being a better NFL player than Asante Samuel, too.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I didn't mention the level of competition; I don't think that's a big issue, except insofar as it affects his draft status. Statistically, though, C-USA was much, MUCH worse vs. the run last year that 2 years ago. I think there were something like 4 teams that ran for 200 per game.
Williams didn't play last year, though - his last season was '05.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Williams didn't play last year, though - his last season was '05.
Whoops. Misread your post.

Anyway, C-USA total rushing yards per game for 2005-2006: 1862.6, or 155.22...

...and for 2007-2008: 2,036.8, or 169.67 per team.

Difference in YPG per team: 14 and a bit. So, okay, I'll give you that one.

Still, Williams' production wasn't quite as good even if you tack 14 extra yards per game onto his totals (2,200 to 2,457, and Smith scored 30 total touchdowns to Williams' 19).

All of which is a very long-winded way of saying that if Williams is good enough to start for the Panthers, Smith ought to be too. (Williams ran a 4.49 at the Combine, which should be right around what Smith runs).

[furt]

I'll go so far as to say I think KS is a better NFL prospect than Culpepper, and I think he may end up being a better NFL player than Asante Samuel, too.hey, I hope you're right; I hope he goes in the first round, wins ROY, and goes to Canton. And I do think that long-term he's an excellent prospect, very possibly the best UCF player ever in the pros. Some of the backs he reminds me of did very well in the NFL -- Terrell Davis being the foremost

My point was just that with all of the stuff that I mentioned above, I'm not sure how well he's going to do, statistically, this year, which is what your bet is. I see him being taken in round 3 by someone like Cleveland or Arizona, who need depth and a future at RB, but who do have a clear #1 to start the season (much the way Williams was in Carolina).

[Least Original User Name Ever]

hey, I hope you're right; I hope he goes in the first round, wins ROY, and goes to Canton. And I do think that long-term he's an excellent prospect, very possibly the best UCF player ever in the pros. Some of the backs he reminds me of did very well in the NFL -- Terrell Davis being the foremost

My point was just that with all of the stuff that I mentioned above, I'm not sure how well he's going to do, statistically, this year, which is what your bet is. I see him being taken in round 3 by someone like Cleveland or Arizona, who need depth and a future at RB, but who do have a clear #1 to start the season (much the way Williams was in Carolina).



....Well...I don't!

[Really Not All That Bright]

....Well...I don't!
I wouldn't either. I've got some really horrible choices for your new name lined up :)

[Least Original User Name Ever]

I wouldn't either. I've got some really horrible choices for your new name lined up :)


Hey! Don't make me start brainstorming!

I might come up with a light drizzle...

[Really Not All That Bright]

Derek Anderson just re-signed with the Browns, sez the radio.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

The Lions might trade Shawn Rogers for Marcus Stroud.

[SenorBeef]

Well, I can guarantee you there's never been so much rage for resigning a first year starting QB who made the pro bowl, nearly broke team records for TDs, and is 24 years old... especially from a fanbase who haven't seen good quarterbacking in 20 years.

They were so sure he was gone it was fun to hate on him, I guess. I wonder what they do now, grind their teeth for a few years or soften up?

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Or "stop whining". That's always good too.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Well, I can guarantee you there's never been so much rage for resigning a first year starting QB who made the pro bowl, nearly broke team records for TDs, and is 24 years old... especially from a fanbase who haven't seen good quarterbacking in 20 years.

They were so sure he was gone it was fun to hate on him, I guess. I wonder what they do now, grind their teeth for a few years or soften up?
Were Browns fans ripping him?

I'd take him for my team in a heartbeat.

[SenorBeef]

Yeah, before the Cinci game there was a sizable minority of "Quinn can do no wrong, Anderson sucks" people, but after the Cinci game it seemingly went from 20% of people to 80%.

Anderson is disliked by most, hated by a sizable minority, and there's a big meltdown that we resigned him.

That may not represent the average fan - this is among the relatively more hardcore fans of theobr.com message board I hang out on.


Anderson has some huge flaws. He started out strong and got worse as the year wore on which I admit is worrisome. Quinn has also looked absolutely excellent in very limited playing time. So I can see why one would prefer Quinn. What I can't see is absolute hatred for a guy who went 10-5 and very nearly 11-4 as a first year starter on a team with a bottom 5 defense.

I do think Anderson is overpaid substantially, though. But I'm not going to melt down about it and throw hate beams the guys way and try to destroy team chemistry by being part of the angry mob that hates the potential leader of our team.

[SenorBeef]

I will add that I wanted a legitimate QB competition in training camp next year. Will there be now? Probably not. I can't imagine the team will have an 8 million dollar a year backup unless he's clearly massively outperformed.

I'd rather have tendered DA with the highest tender. If someone signs him and gives a first and third, that's fine. If not, we have a legit QB competition, if DA wins and does well, we can either resign him or franchise him next year.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Maybe I didn't watch enough of the Brows, which is completely possible, but I'm not getting the hate.


You guys knew Joey Harrington sucked when he was on the Lions, right?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Quinn has also looked absolutely excellent in very limited playing time. So I can see why one would prefer Quinn.
That... that's a joke... right?

2007 Att 8 Comp 3 % 37.5 Yards 45 TD 0 Int 0 Long 18 Rating 56.8
He looked quite good in the preseason, I suppose, but if you're willing to bet the farm on him based on a couple of preseason games, I have a bridge over here I think you'll love...

[Really Not All That Bright]

Here are Derek Anderson's stats for last season:
Comp 298 Att 527 % 56.5 Yards 3,787 Avg. 7.2 TD 29 Int 19 Rating 82.5
And by way of comparison, Carson Palmer's first year as the starter:
Comp 263 Att 432 % 60.9 Yards 2897 Avg. 6.71 TD 18 Int 18 Rating 77.3
Or Ben Roethlisberger's rookie season:
Comp 196 Att 295 % 66.4 Yards 2,621 Avg. 8.9 TD 17 Int 11 Rating 98.1
And the first-year stats of another quarterback who's done pretty well for himself, and may be the best comparison given where Anderson was drafted*:
Comp 264 Att 413 % 63.9 Yards 2,843 Avg. 6.9 TD 18 Int 12 Rating 86.5

Aside from his completion percentage, Anderson's stats are comparable to or better than all of them.

Were I a Browns fan, I'd be thanking every possible deity in sight that Phil Savage traded away Charlie Frye instead of Anderson.





*Tom Fucking Brady - drafted in Round 7, Anderson drafted in Round 6.

[Hal Briston]

As much as I'm still laughing at him for blowing what would have been the game-sealing INT in the Super Bowl, I'm not happy that my Giants will now have to contend with Asante Samuel twice each season.

Is it too much to hope that Philly continues to be the place where talented players go to become washed up?

[SenorBeef]

That... that's a joke... right?


Nope.


He looked quite good in the preseason, I suppose, but if you're willing to bet the farm on him based on a couple of preseason games, I have a bridge over here I think you'll love...

I'm not willing to bet the farm on him for that - that's why I liked the idea of retaining both quarterbacks unless substantial value was offered in trade.

Of course 8 regular season passes aren't enough to judge him by - although I will say this, two of those passes hit receivers once in the chest and once in the hands, and one of those would've been a touchdown pass, so stats of (guessing, based on memory) 5/8 75 yards 1 td would've looked better.

His first two preseason games were against third and fourth stringers, true, but he made the right decisions, looked nearly perfect, and still made some remarkable throws. The first and second team offenses with Frye and Anderson looked completely inept, whereas when Quinn was in there everything came alive and looked efficient.

In the third preseason game, the most "realistic" one so to speak, Quinn played against Denver's first stringers and played remarkably well. He made 3 absolutely beautiful passes and none were bad. There was a 38 (IIRC) yard touchdown that was called out of bounds but really wasn't. They didn't challenge it because (I suspect) Romeo had no intention of the holdout kid coming in and starting - he's notoriously slow to give rookies playing time on offense - and he didn't want him to look that good. His stats for that game, if you include that TD pass, were something like 9/13 140 yards 2 TDs or something.

People overplay how useless the preseason is. They act like you can take nothing from it. I agree that you shouldn't try to read whether or not you won or lost a game as meaningful, but there's some meaning to be found in how your players play...... otherwise why would they have the preseason at all?

We also get lots of reports from training camp on the message board - a lot of it very knowledgable from people who know football well from coaching it at some level or other knowledgable people.

IMO, they should've signed Anderson to the tender. This 3 year big contract negatively impacts a legitimate QB competition. I think Quinn will ultimately end up being the best QB, but unlike the rest of the world apparently, I don't think it's a bad thing to have too much talent at QB.

[Ellis Dee]

People overplay how useless the preseason is. They act like you can take nothing from it. I agree that you shouldn't try to read whether or not you won or lost a game as meaningful, but there's some meaning to be found in how your players play...... otherwise why would they have the preseason at all?I think it's mostly to assess effort and raw ability.

The main thing to keep in mind is that nobody wants to show their hand, so the defenses play as vanilla as it gets. Preseason games may as well adopt the probowl rules for defense, since nobody runs anything more sophisticated than that anyway.

[SenorBeef]

You have a point, but it gets more complex and realistic than pro bowl rules. Especially for teams that are installing a new system with a new coach - their plays on that side of the ball tend to be drawn from a real playbook because they need to practice it. They won't use every trick in the book, of course, but you'll often see real, legitimate plays being called.


The contract confuses me. If you're convinced he's your future, sign him to 6+ years. If you want to keep him around for a while because you're not sure, either tender him or offer him a cheap 3 year deal.

An expensive 3 year deal is odd.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Madieu Williams will sign a big contract with the Vikings...
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2008/02/6-year-deal-for-madieu-with-vikings.asp

WTF? How do you expect to upgrade a piss-poor pass defense using players from another piss-poor pass defense? The Vikings had the best group of safeties in the league the last two years and still couldn't stop anyone. So, they let Dwight Smith go and he signed with the Lions for peanuts... and now they're giving a guy who isn't as good $33 million...

That said, I absolutely cannot understand why the Vikings are so bad at defending the pass. They have spent tons of money acquiring very good players and yet their pass defense has been consistently terrible. I realize that everyone passes against them because the run defense is so good but they play Cover-2 most of the time...

furt, I would be stunned if 24K doesn't go before the 3rd round. Of course, his draft stock will depend a good deal on how good his 40 time at the Combine is, but I think 4.5 or better is likely- he ran a 4.48 as an HS senior. Also, he did play safety in high school, but only during his senior year - he was the starting tailback during his sophomore and junior years.

The pundits seem to agree with me, mostly:
http://www.nfldraftdog.com/2008_nfl_draft/kevin_smith.htm
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=56551
http://www.thefootballexpert.com/kevinsmithprofile080001.html
http://cfn.scout.com/2/719789.html

Remember, he wasn't some sort of "system" guy. The UCF offense is set up to feature short passing; Smith was getting 40 carries a game by midseason only because our pass offense was so weak.

By way of comparison, Daunte (Culpepper)'s numbers were system-based. His NCAA-record 70% career completion percentage was based mostly on the fact that he hardly ever threw a pass downfield. I love Daunte, but I'm firmly convinced that his early success in the NFL had a good deal to do with throwing to Randy Moss and Cris Carter, and less to do with his ability.

I'll go so far as to say I think KS is a better NFL prospect than Culpepper, and I think he may end up being a better NFL player than Asante Samuel, too.
Madieu is a quality pass defender. His run suport is suspect.

[SenorBeef]

Did Maddieu only get a 4 year contract? I remember he was drafted a few spots before Sean Jones who is still under contract this year.

Browns are apparently pretty active. Here's the latest rumor:


A league source tells Booth Newspapers that the Browns will acquire DT Shaun Rogers from the Lions in exchange for CB Leigh Bodden and a 2008 third-round pick.


To which I have to say.... no. Nooooooo. No. No no. No.

Edit:

Maybe not the worst thing ever. I don't watch the Lions much. I only hear that Rogers is one of those "great athletic talent, occasionally motivated" guys and I hate them. I'd rather have the lesser talent that gives it his all every play.

That said, Leigh Bodden had one of the best, if not the best, seasons by a corner I've seen back in 2005. But since then it's been nagging injury after nagging injury and he hasn't played well.

Still, I don't like the sound of this.

[Ellis Dee]

Not happy that the Giants lost both Kawika Mitchell and Gibril Wilson. There are now officially some gaping holes in the defense.

[some white dude]

To which I have to say.... no. Nooooooo. No. No no. No.This is the first comment that appears on ESPN's page announcing the trade:

Don't mistake Shauns moments of dominance as talent... He just occasionally catches the offensive linemen nodding off against him because he takes so many plays off every game.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

You're welcome, but he's a much better QB than DA is. If Boller had been your QB, with the line and receiving talent y'all have, you'd have made the playoffs last year.

Yeah, right. You do remember Boller ain't exactly a young gun: in his second year, he had a Ravens O-line that wasn't collecting AARP. I think they might have even been considered the best O-line in the league at the time. And Todd Heap, Derrick Mason and Mark Clayton weren't terrible passing options for him.

I'm not entirely sold on DA (even before the Cincinnatti stinker), but he's a hell of a lot better option than Boller.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Shaun Rogers to....my Bengals for their 3rd and 5th rounders!
Yay!

[Hamlet]

Shaun Rogers to....my Bengals for their 3rd and 5th rounders!
Yay!Actually, I think that deal fell through and he ended up going to Cleveland for Leigh Bodden and a 3rd rounder.

Looks like Cleveland is retooling their entire defense. And it needs it.

[SenorBeef]

I don't get it. Shaun Smith looked pretty decent at NT and Ethan Kelley is good depth if he can stay healthy. I really hate "talented but takes plays off" players.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Did Maddieu only get a 4 year contract? I remember he was drafted a few spots before Sean Jones who is still under contract this year.

Browns are apparently pretty active. Here's the latest rumor:



To which I have to say.... no. Nooooooo. No. No no. No.

Edit:

Maybe not the worst thing ever. I don't watch the Lions much. I only hear that Rogers is one of those "great athletic talent, occasionally motivated" guys and I hate them. I'd rather have the lesser talent that gives it his all every play.

That said, Leigh Bodden had one of the best, if not the best, seasons by a corner I've seen back in 2005. But since then it's been nagging injury after nagging injury and he hasn't played well.

Still, I don't like the sound of this.


Shawn Rogers is the best interior defensive lineman in the league....when he's up for it. He destroys the run, completely blows up the pocket, commands a double team at all times, and is surprisingly mobile. If you can get consistency out of him, you'll be VERY happy. I didn't want to trade him because I thought we'd get 80 cents on the dollar for him, but I'm fine with this. Bodden's a solid corner, but I'd still like 2 more in the draft.


Apparently Leigh Bodden = 5th rounder?

[SenorBeef]

Yep, I don't get it. Cinci was offering a third and fifth and they took it. So offered a third and Bodden. WTF?

I wouldn't trade Bodden straight up for him. I might trade a third rounder. But both together? Crazy.

We had a late round corner, Brandon McDonald, come on strong last year but it's hard to imagine they plan on he and Wright being the starting corners. Maybe getting another corner is in the works, I don't know.

But unless Bodden has some condition which suggests he'll never be healthy again like he was in '05, I don't like this deal at all. His value is way higher than a 5th rounder.

[EsotericEnigma]

I'm torn about the Samuels signing. On one hand, Samuels played an integral part in the Patriots games from the Eagles win on up to the Super Bowl. It just seemed like he always made a big play right when the Patriots needed one, and came within inches of closing out the Super Bowl for the Patriots too. He's a playmaker. Definitely a huge upgrade for a team that had the league's fewest takeaways last year. On the other hand, it's a lot of money for a corner when the team already has one All Pro corner and another All Pro caliber corner. Is the upgrade that significant?

And why aren't the Eagles doing SOMETHING about their receiver corps? It's no fluke that McNabb's best season was with a stellar wideout. Why not roll the dice with Javon Walker (a good YAC guy, exactly what TO was) on a discount? Are the Eagles really going to go into another season with a couple of #2 WRs starting for them? Why not just admit you're sabotaging McNabb and trade him now while he still has some value?

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Couldn't agree with you more, E Squared. I think McNabb needs a solid number one, even if it's just to grade his talents with.

[SenorBeef]

Yep, so the trade was legit and official now.

Having had time to think about it, I just really hate "good when motivated guys."

I want to walk up to them and say "OH GEE LIVING OUT THE DREAM OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHILE GETTING PAID MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR IT ISN'T ENOUGH TO MOTIVATE YOU YOU FAT FUCK? I STAB YOU!!!!!!"

But Phil has really dramatically revamped our lines in 2 years. We went from having one of the worst offensive lines in the league to one of the best over one offseason. Now we're taking one of the worst defensive lines and the league and.... turning it into one of the best? I hope. LDE Corey Smith, NT Shaun Rogers, RDE Robaire Smith sounds dominant.

Crennel does seem to be pretty good at getting guys to buy into the whole team spirit thing, so maybe a change of scenery for Rogers (I could see why being in Detroit might give you more motivational problems than you might otherwise have I guess) will help.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Couldn't agree with you more, E Squared. I think McNabb needs a solid number one, even if it's just to grade his talents with.
He already had a solid #1 to grade his talents with, and IMHO the resulting grade was "pretty damn good"...

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Yep, so the trade was legit and official now.

Having had time to think about it, I just really hate "good when motivated guys."

I want to walk up to them and say "OH GEE LIVING OUT THE DREAM OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHILE GETTING PAID MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR IT ISN'T ENOUGH TO MOTIVATE YOU YOU FAT FUCK? I STAB YOU!!!!!!"

But Phil has really dramatically revamped our lines in 2 years. We went from having one of the worst offensive lines in the league to one of the best over one offseason. Now we're taking one of the worst defensive lines and the league and.... turning it into one of the best? I hope. LDE Corey Smith, NT Shaun Rogers, RDE Robaire Smith sounds dominant.

Crennel does seem to be pretty good at getting guys to buy into the whole team spirit thing, so maybe a change of scenery for Rogers (I could see why being in Detroit might give you more motivational problems than you might otherwise have I guess) will help.


His ceiling is absolutely incredible. I'm really not kidding when I say that he's the best interior lineman in the NFL. He's also amazing at blocking kicks.

[gonzomax]

He will blow the best players off the field for a half. Then come out and take a 30 minute snooze.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

The Browns also signed Donte Stallworth...where in the fuck are they getting all this money?
IN a matter of days, the Brownies have signed D Anderson to a big contract with guaranteed money, signed Stallworth to a 5mil a year contract with 10mil in guaranteed money, they just assumed Rogers' fat (no pun) contract at around 5 mil per, signed Williamson (Packers DT) to a big contract...where is all this loot coming from?
It sounds to me like Savage is taking a page out of the Dan Snyder playbook and hoping it works...it could, but it could also be a disaster.

Meanwhile, back in Bengalville, we still have failed to sign an impact player in FA since the Sapp deal was reneged upon. Fuckity fuck.

[SenorBeef]

His ceiling is absolutely incredible. I'm really not kidding when I say that he's the best interior lineman in the NFL. He's also amazing at blocking kicks.

Did he play better when you guys were on your way to 6-2? Maybe a team on the upswing with a winning spirit will motivate him. He's more likely to have that here than he's had over his career over there...

Browns signed Donte Stallworth. They're being quite aggressive. Anyone have any opinions on Donte? He was in the most prolific passing offense of all time and couldn't put up good numbers, but was that because Moss/Welker were so good, or Stallworth was bad, or both maybe?

I know he's had nagging injury issues for a while.

He might be a good fit. Joe Jurevicious is one of those route/hands possession guys you love to throw to on 3rd and 7, but he's not a great #2. He could be a great #3, which is why I hope Stallworth doesn't suck. #2/#3 WR was the the biggest hole on offense for the Browns (that, and the giant black hole of suck that happened when Tim Carter was on the field), and hopefully this solves that.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Did he play better when you guys were on your way to 6-2? Maybe a team on the upswing with a winning spirit will motivate him. He's more likely to have that here than he's had over his career over there...

Browns signed Donte Stallworth. They're being quite aggressive. Anyone have any opinions on Donte? He was in the most prolific passing offense of all time and couldn't put up good numbers, but was that because Moss/Welker were so good, or Stallworth was bad, or both maybe?
He's always been extremely inconsistent. When he was with the Saints he'd be totally MIA for three quarters and then catch a 60-yard touchdown pass out of nowhere... then disappear again.

Never caught more than 70 passes in a season, and only caught more than 50 twice... and never had a 1,000 yard season.

Having drafted him for my fantasy team, I can tell you that Wes Welker's production steadly declined from Week 1 to Week 5... then he exploded in Week 6. Stallworth, on the other hand, just sort of hung around all season. Had one big game against Dallas, and that was pretty much it.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Did he play better when you guys were on your way to 6-2? Maybe a team on the upswing with a winning spirit will motivate him. He's more likely to have that here than he's had over his career over there...

Browns signed Donte Stallworth. They're being quite aggressive. Anyone have any opinions on Donte? He was in the most prolific passing offense of all time and couldn't put up good numbers, but was that because Moss/Welker were so good, or Stallworth was bad, or both maybe?

I know he's had nagging injury issues for a while.

He might be a good fit. Joe Jurevicious is one of those route/hands possession guys you love to throw to on 3rd and 7, but he's not a great #2. He could be a great #3, which is why I hope Stallworth doesn't suck. #2/#3 WR was the the biggest hole on offense for the Browns (that, and the giant black hole of suck that happened when Tim Carter was on the field), and hopefully this solves that.
For the amount of money the Browns paid Donte, he'd better show up. I see it as a move to replace Jurevicious in the offense alongside Braylon.
I am impressed that the Browns are making so many moves, but the question is whether or not it will pan out. The AFC North is entirely up in the air next year IMO, with the exception of the Ratbirds. I don't see them vastly improving.
You've got the Steelers, whom are perenially decent and could win the division any given year...
The Browns, who suddenly seem to be improving but failed to miss the playoffs last year (you're welcome!)
And the Bengals, whom are an enigma, and I'm a fan. They could explode or tank...it all depends on Palmer and the oline staying healthy, and whether or not their new D-Coordinator manages to cobble together a mediocre or better defense.

[Hal Briston]

Not happy that the Giants lost both Kawika Mitchell and Gibril Wilson. There are now officially some gaping holes in the defense.Agreed -- I'll miss them both (Mitchell more than Wilson), but after last season I'm fully prepared to chug the Jerry Reese Kool-Aid. Hopefully he'll work that same magic and produce some worthwhile replacements.

[SenorBeef]

I am impressed that the Browns are making so many moves, but the question is whether or not it will pan out. The AFC North is entirely up in the air next year IMO, with the exception of the Ratbirds. I don't see them vastly improving.
You've got the Steelers, whom are perenially decent and could win the division any given year...


The Browns are the only team who clearly seem to be going up. They went 10-6 on the strength of their offense alone and this year they may have a legitimate defense too.

Pittsburgh is the only other team in real contention, and they were on a sharp decline at the end of the year. They're going to lose Faneca on an already crappy O-line (although losing Faneca may actually improve their pass blocking).


And the Bengals, whom are an enigma, and I'm a fan.

If by "enigma" you mean "team that had one good year in the last 20 or so", sure. You'll probably get third place in the division though thanks to the ineptitude and failure of the rats, which I'm thoroughly enjoying.

[garygnu]

Well, the 49ers have signed three free agent players, an old wide receiver, a decent (?) pass rusher, and a kick return specialist. However, the biggest and best news is that Candlestick Park is once again officially Candlestick Park and will stay that way.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

He might be a good fit. Joe Jurevicious is one of those route/hands possession guys you love to throw to on 3rd and 7, but he's not a great #2. He could be a great #3, which is why I hope Stallworth doesn't suck. #2/#3 WR was the the biggest hole on offense for the Browns (that, and the giant black hole of suck that happened when Tim Carter was on the field), and hopefully this solves that.

Stallworth is probably going to be used much the same sort of way for us that he was used for the Pats: a deep threat trotted on the field who occasionally makes a big play. Winslow is a legit #2 option, and I don't think Chud is going to move the offense away from him, but Stallworth gives us a better package on deep passing downs.

[furt]

I'm torn about the Samuels signing. On one hand, Samuels played an integral part in the Patriots games from the Eagles win on up to the Super Bowl. It just seemed like he always made a big play right when the Patriots needed one, and came within inches of closing out the Super Bowl for the Patriots too. He's a playmaker. Definitely a huge upgrade for a team that had the league's fewest takeaways last year. On the other hand, it's a lot of money for a corner when the team already has one All Pro corner and another All Pro caliber corner. Is the upgrade that significant?

And why aren't the Eagles doing SOMETHING about their receiver corps? It's no fluke that McNabb's best season was with a stellar wideout. Why not roll the dice with Javon Walker (a good YAC guy, exactly what TO was) on a discount? Are the Eagles really going to go into another season with a couple of #2 WRs starting for them? Why not just admit you're sabotaging McNabb and trade him now while he still has some value?The Eagles are likely to either deal Shepperd or else move Sheldon Brown to safety.

I prefer the former, and I agree with getting Walker. If they're going to try to win now, then they need to do that and take some chances.

[furt]

By the way, http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm has been awesome for NFL news. Florio routinely has rumor of signings before they happen.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

The Browns are the only team who clearly seem to be going up. They went 10-6 on the strength of their offense alone and this year they may have a legitimate defense too.

Pittsburgh is the only other team in real contention, and they were on a sharp decline at the end of the year. They're going to lose Faneca on an already crappy O-line (although losing Faneca may actually improve their pass blocking).



If by "enigma" you mean "team that had one good year in the last 20 or so", sure. You'll probably get third place in the division though thanks to the ineptitude and failure of the rats, which I'm thoroughly enjoying.
well, we'll see...we have a LOT of talent on offense, in fact I'd argue more than you, but...without a defense it won't matter. I still think Anderson is WAY overrated.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

The Browns are the only team who clearly seem to be going up. They went 10-6 on the strength of their offense alone and this year they may have a legitimate defense too.

Pittsburgh is the only other team in real contention, and they were on a sharp decline at the end of the year. They're going to lose Faneca on an already crappy O-line (although losing Faneca may actually improve their pass blocking).



If by "enigma" you mean "team that had one good year in the last 20 or so", sure. You'll probably get third place in the division though thanks to the ineptitude and failure of the rats, which I'm thoroughly enjoying.
Oh yeah, and the same logic applies to the Browns, FWIW. Ever even been to a Super Bowl? No? OK.
If you want to get all technical and stuff. We are ONE game away from sweeping you FOUR years in a ROW. We are not as bad as you may believe.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Well, the 49ers have signed three free agent players, an old wide receiver, a decent (?) pass rusher, and a kick return specialist. However, the biggest and best news is that Candlestick Park is once again officially Candlestick Park and will stay that way.
Justin Smith is NOT decent. He is SOLID as a run defender, and lackadaisical as a pass rusher.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Stallworth is probably going to be used much the same sort of way for us that he was used for the Pats: a deep threat trotted on the field who occasionally makes a big play. Winslow is a legit #2 option, and I don't think Chud is going to move the offense away from him, but Stallworth gives us a better package on deep passing downs.
But look out for Winslow...he's a FUCKING SOLDIER!
LOL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I82BPA5QAaQ
Classy guy!

[Ellis Dee]

By the way, http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm has been awesome for NFL news. Florio routinely has rumor of signings before they happen.Great link, furt. I see from there that the Giants finally coaxed their first free agent to visit, a mere two days into free agency.

Sammy Knight, who has been known to hit pretty hard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJaFHrrC6wM), is in the running to replace Gibril Wilson. His downside is that he's old and slow, but hopefully he won't turn into another Brent Alexander. As a one year stopgap he could be decent.

Some unconfirmed numbers:

G. Wilson 92 tackles, 7 passes defensed, 4 ints, 6.5 mil for 6 yrs
S. Knight 93 tackles, 11 passes defensed, 4 ints, around 2 mil?

[SenorBeef]

well, we'll see...we have a LOT of talent on offense, in fact I'd argue more than you, but...without a defense it won't matter. I still think Anderson is WAY overrated.

You have Carson Palmer, beats us. Possibly your RG and RT, and 2nd WR (what's the deal with Chad now anyway?) but that's it. We're clearly better in every other position IMO.

Oh yeah, and the same logic applies to the Browns, FWIW. Ever even been to a Super Bowl? No? OK.
If you want to get all technical and stuff. We are ONE game away from sweeping you FOUR years in a ROW. We are not as bad as you may believe.

You can pull out that "we went to the superbowl 20 years ago stuff" but my point was that the Browns were the only team in the AFC North that was clearly on the rise. And so far, we've made major additions in the areas we've been weakest.

What indications do you have that your team will be on the rise again? Marvin Lewis did a good job turning the attitude of the team around for a year or three - you had one winning season and all of these "lifelong" Bengals fans with price tags still on their Johnson and Palmer jersies popped up everywhere. But now it sounds like the inmates run the asylum.

Edit: For what it's worth, I don't really mind if you're decent and take second place in the division. The media tries to play up some in-state rivalry between the Browns and Bengals but as far as I can tell, from the Browns' fan end there really isn't one. You're sort of like our retarded little brother more than a rival.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Stallworth is probably going to be used much the same sort of way for us that he was used for the Pats: a deep threat trotted on the field who occasionally makes a big play. Winslow is a legit #2 option, and I don't think Chud is going to move the offense away from him, but Stallworth gives us a better package on deep passing downs.
Agreed. He's not a good complement for Braylon Edwards at all, who is also a deep-threat only kind of guy. On the other hand, when you have a tight end who'll pull down five catches a game without even trying, a solid possession WR is less of a need.
Sammy Knight, who has been known to hit pretty hard, is in the running to replace Gibril Wilson. His downside is that he's old and slow, but hopefully he won't turn into another Brent Alexander. As a one year stopgap he could be decent.
He's good against the run, and had excellent ball skills earlier in his career, but he's becoming a liability in coverage. There's a very good reason nobody's kept him around for more than two seasons.

Were I a Giants fan, I'd look to replace Wilson via the draft; safety is one of those positions where you can safely plug in a rookie. See Tanard Jackson (Bucs), Reggie Nelson (Jags), Ko Simpson (Bills), LaRon Landry (Skins) or Antoine Bethea (Colts), all of whom started last season and were all at least decent.

Jackson would have gotten some attention for DROTY had he played for a more ballyhooed team, and only cost the Bucs a fourth-rounder.
You have Carson Palmer, beats us. Possibly your RG and RT, and 2nd WR (what's the deal with Chad now anyway?) but that's it. We're clearly better in every other position IMO.
Edwards has had one really good season. Bit early to suggest that he's better than Chad Johnson (or Houshmanzadeh, for that matter). Also kind of hard to say that your secondary was better than Cincy's when both were pretty bad and you just lost your best DB (Bodden) to free agency.

[SenorBeef]

Agreed. He's not a good complement for Braylon Edwards at all, who is also a deep-threat only kind of guy. On the other hand, when you have a tight end who'll pull down five catches a game without even trying, a solid possession WR is less of a need.


Deep-threat only? Braylon Edwards is quickly becoming one of the best well-rounded receivers in the league.

I just went to nfl.com to get the game highlights that involved my favorite Edwards play and somehow, during an extensive 5 minute highlight clip, they didn't choose to put the best play of the game in there. Grrr. The highlights the nfl.com site puts up within a few hours after a game is over are superior to the NFL network ones they eventually replace them with.

Anyway... Edwards runs all the routes. The guy is 6'3/215 and knows how to use his body - he probably makes more catches based on that than he does based on his speed, which is good but not burner range (he ran in the 4.5s IIRC at the combine).


Edwards has had one really good season. Bit early to suggest that he's better than Chad Johnson (or Houshmanzadeh, for that matter). Also kind of hard to say that your secondary was better than Cincy's when both were pretty bad and you just lost your best DB (Bodden) to free agency.

You'd trade Johnson for Edwards straight up without a moment's hesistation. Housh is harder to say but I still think just about everyone would pick Edwards given the choice.

And I was only comparing offenses, as you mentioned how talented your offense was. Both our defenses were very bad. Although we've filled our biggest hole already.

[Really Not All That Bright]

You'd trade Johnson for Edwards straight up without a moment's hesistation. Housh is harder to say but I still think just about everyone would pick Edwards given the choice.

And I was only comparing offenses, as you mentioned how talented your offense was. Both our defenses were very bad. Although we've filled our biggest hole already.
Salary cap-wise, maybe- Edwards would come a lot cheaper than Johnson's next contract will.

Otherwise, you've got to be joking. Johnson has been among the best five receivers in the league for years. Edwards, again, has had ONE #1-type season. There's no reason to believe that he won't be the next Koren Robinson/Michael Clayton/Jerry Porter - all first-rounders who had one huge season and were very, very average afterward.

Incidentally, Edwards ran a 4.45 at the Combine (and a 4.42 at his Pro Day) but most scouts expected a sub-4.4 time.

[Hamlet]

Salary cap-wise, maybe- Edwards would come a lot cheaper than Johnson's next contract will.

Otherwise, you've got to be joking. Johnson has been among the best five receivers in the league for years. Edwards, again, has had ONE #1-type season. There's no reason to believe that he won't be the next Koren Robinson/Michael Clayton/Jerry Porter - all first-rounders who had one huge season and were very, very average afterward.If you asked me, right now, who I would rather have, Chad Johnson or Braylon Edwards, I'd take Edwards in a heartbeat, and not just because of the money. At this point in time, he's an up and comer, and has gotten better every single year. And he's doing it on the frickin Browns. I'm convinced if you had Palmer throwing to Edwards, he'd be a perenial pro bowler from year one. Add in the idiocy that Johnson brings to any team, and it's an easy choice for me.

[Oslo Ostragoth]

Is there any way the deal the Vikings gave Berrian is not way oversized (6 years, $42M)? :dubious:

The Bears now have only four receivers on the roster, two of whom have yet to have an NFL reception. :( :( :(

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Is there any way the deal the Vikings gave Berrian is not way oversized (6 years, $42M)? :dubious:

The Bears now have only four receivers on the roster, two of whom have yet to have an NFL reception. :( :( :(

That coupled with the quarterback...they need a couple of veterans. They need Brian Griese (if Chicago releases him) and some other vet to be named later.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Is there any way the deal the Vikings gave Berrian is not way oversized (6 years, $42M)? :dubious:

The Bears now have only four receivers on the roster, two of whom have yet to have an NFL reception. :( :( :(
The Seahawks gave Nate Burleson $49 million a few years back on the basis of a lot less than Berrian has shown.

[SenorBeef]

Salary cap-wise, maybe- Edwards would come a lot cheaper than Johnson's next contract will.

Otherwise, you've got to be joking. Johnson has been among the best five receivers in the league for years. Edwards, again, has had ONE #1-type season.


His first year in the league he didn't get to be a starter until midseason, and he only started a few games before he tore his ACL. He only had 500-600 yards, but looked good.

The next year he wasn't supposed to be able to play football until several weeks into the season due to the severity of the injury, but he worked his ass off to come back at the start of the season. He wasn't 100%. But he still put up 900 yards in a terrible offense with Charlie Frye as his QB.

So in his third year, he's finally healthy and in a healthy offense, and he puts up 1300/16. In one of the worst weather cities in football, no less. Put him in a dome and we're probably talking 1600+ yards.

Chad Johnson is old, on the decline, a headcase, and a cancer. Braylon is a team player, an up and comer, and does everything well. There's not a GM in the league if offered the choice that would take CJ over BE.


There's no reason to believe that he won't be the next Koren Robinson/Michael Clayton/Jerry Porter - all first-rounders who had one huge season and were very, very average afterward.


Well, except that he's improved every year and looked like a well rounded legit NFL receiver at every point in his pro career.


Incidentally, Edwards ran a 4.45 at the Combine (and a 4.42 at his Pro Day) but most scouts expected a sub-4.4 time.

My bad. 4.45 is good speed, but not the burner speed you expect out of a "deep threat" only guy. He runs routes over the middle all the time and he uses his size and body control more often than deep speed.


I'm not sold on Shaun Rogers yet, but it was nice to read this (http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2008/03/shaun_rogers_gives_lions_assis.html):


However, Rogers was willing to do something for the Browns, one of the league's up-and-coming young teams, that he wasn't willing to do for the Bengals -- agree to postpone the due date of the roster bonus. That effectively made it a non-issue with the league and opened the door for the trade with Cleveland.


Rogers did what he could to come to Cleveland instead of Cincinatti. Maybe he and Steinbach could share some laughs over some beers.

[Weirddave]

Yeah, right. You do remember Boller ain't exactly a young gun:
He's 26
in his second year, he had a Ravens O-line that wasn't collecting AARP.
After playing just 9 games in his rookie year before being injured, he went 258-of-464 (55.6%) for 2,559 yards with 13 TDs and 11 INTs. He had 4 games with QB ratings over 100. What more do you want from a guy moving from rookie to second year? They're not great numbers, but they don't stink either.
I think they might have even been considered the best O-line in the league at the time. I don't think so, but I have no stats handy to say one way or the other.
And Todd Heap, Derrick Mason and Mark Clayton weren't terrible passing options for him.
Last year Heap was out all year, DM is old and getting older and Clayton fought injuries; he's a pile of promise that hasn't materialized yet. I'll take Winslow, Edwards and company in a heartbeat.

I'm not entirely sold on DA (even before the Cincinnatti stinker), but he's a hell of a lot better option than Boller.
I'm convinced that this season will prove me right and you wrong. Quinn will be starting by December in Cleveland, and if Boller gets to play in a decent situation, he'll do well.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Deep-threat only? Braylon Edwards is quickly becoming one of the best well-rounded receivers in the league.

I just went to nfl.com to get the game highlights that involved my favorite Edwards play and somehow, during an extensive 5 minute highlight clip, they didn't choose to put the best play of the game in there. Grrr. The highlights the nfl.com site puts up within a few hours after a game is over are superior to the NFL network ones they eventually replace them with.

Anyway... Edwards runs all the routes. The guy is 6'3/215 and knows how to use his body - he probably makes more catches based on that than he does based on his speed, which is good but not burner range (he ran in the 4.5s IIRC at the combine).



You'd trade Johnson for Edwards straight up without a moment's hesistation. Housh is harder to say but I still think just about everyone would pick Edwards given the choice.

And I was only comparing offenses, as you mentioned how talented your offense was. Both our defenses were very bad. Although we've filled our biggest hole already.
That is the height of insanity, despite his baggage. Chad is signed until the next decade. whether he likes it or not, and if he decides to pollute the waters in Cincy, we will get adequate compensation. Chad imo is going NOWHERE next year.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

The Seahawks gave Nate Burleson $49 million a few years back on the basis of a lot less than Berrian has shown.


I think most of it was just a petty reaction to the Vikings taking Steve Huchinson (the better acquisition, of course).

[Really Not All That Bright]

So in his third year, he's finally healthy and in a healthy offense, and he puts up 1300/16. In one of the worst weather cities in football, no less. Put him in a dome and we're probably talking 1600+ yards.

Chad Johnson is old, on the decline, a headcase, and a cancer. Braylon is a team player, an up and comer, and does everything well. There's not a GM in the league if offered the choice that would take CJ over BE.
You can call Johnson a headcase if you want, but show me where he ever had to be physically restrained (http://www.newsnet5.com/sports/10403178/detail.html) from going after his quarterback.

I'm not from Ohio, so I may be assuming a bit here, but is the weather in Cleveland any worse than the weather in Cincy? Anyway, Kellen Winslow put up 1,100 yards last season in the same weather - as a freakin' tight end. With a bum knee.

I discovered this (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr.php) by accident while Googling K2's stats - have a look at the right hand column. It's not definitive, but definitely food for thought.

I think most of it was just a petty reaction to the Vikings taking Steve Huchinson (the better acquisition, of course).
Yes, but they certainly didn't have to give him that much. IIRC he rejected offers from two other teams that were under $30 million.

[SenorBeef]

You can call Johnson a headcase if you want, but show me where he ever had to be physically restrained (http://www.newsnet5.com/sports/10403178/detail.html) from going after his quarterback.


He wasn't going after his quarterback. The offensive line was performing like garbage, and Braylon went over there to say, essentially "you guys need to get your shit together, look at all this dirt on his uniform".


I'm not from Ohio, so I may be assuming a bit here, but is the weather in Cleveland any worse than the weather in Cincy?


Yes, way worse. You get coastal effect wind and humidity in Cleveland. Water temperature changes at a much slower rate than land temperature over the course of a day, leading to significantly more wind in the areas near the coast. Cleveland Browns stadium is directly exposed to the lake, right next to it. You also get humidity picked up in that cold air over the lake. I've been to a few winter games in Cleveland and they have little flags on all 4 goal posts - they were often seen to be blowing in four seperate directions.

I used to live right next to the lake and my car was exposed in a parking lot - sometimes, overnight, there'd be a layer of ice so thick on one side of my car that you couldn't scrape it, you had to use something to smash and shatter the bulk of it off before you could scrape the rest off.

I've been up to Edmonton in Canada in December and while the temperatures were lower, it wasn't as cold as Cleveland generally is.


Anyway, Kellen Winslow put up 1,100 yards last season in the same weather - as a freakin' tight end. With a bum knee.


Right, and Edwards put up 1300. I wasn't making excuses for Edwards, 1300/16 is a great season. I was just saying that it's made even more remarkable by the fact that he had to do receiving in weather like this (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_id=29406&season=2007&displayPage=tab_gamecenter&week=REG15). (That clip, by the way, also has the greatest kick I've ever seen in the NFL).

If he played in a dome (and thankfully he doesn't - that game I linked to was pure awesome) he could've probably lead the league in yardage.

[Omniscient]

Some developments on the Bears front that are worth discussing.

Bernard Berrian signed a 6-year, $47 Million deal with the division rival Vikings. I hate this. While on it's face the Vikes might have overpaid for Berrian, and it certainly will raise the price of Moss, I think they got a fantastic deal and I'd have been thrilled if the Bears had made the same offer. Berrian can be a Pro Bowl guy. He's got superb hands and speed and is elusive, best of all he always gets upfield after a catch. He's going to develop into a ideal #1 guy. Minnesota's QB situation is even worse than the Bears so his stats probably won't bear this out. That said, I hope this contract becomes a problem for the Vikes and that Tavaris doesn't figure out this whole throwing the ball thing. I'm gonna miss him and so will Grossman, Orton or the QB to be named later.

Lance Briggs signed a 6-year, $36 Million deal with the Bears. I said from the get-go that the Bears would only be able to keep one of these two guys. Berrian leaving was what cleared the way for this deal to get done. I'm pleased with it, but if I'd had my druthers I'd have hung onto Berrian instead. I think a productive WR is tougher to replace than a OLB, even one as good as Briggs. The Bears probably got a good price on him because there didn't seem to be many other teams will to lay out big money for him, so all things considered it's probably for the best. The Bears LB crew will be in Bears uni's for at least the rest of the decade and probably beyond, considering they are all still young this is a good thing.

John Gilmore, backup TE, is gone to the Bucs. Nothing much of note here. Gilmore was expendable with the addition of Olsen last year and never really did much.

Julius Jones and Bryant Johnson are rumored to be planning visits with the Bears and I would welcome them both at reasonable prices. Jones could pick up where his brother left off and I like his speed as a compliment to Benson's, um, sucking. I still would like to see the Bears draft a guy in the middle rounds this year because a Benson-Jones tandem isn't a long term solution, but adding Jones would make drafting Mendenhall in the first round a nonstarter. Logically Jones might be cheaper and safer (not to mention freeing us to draft an OT), but emotionally I would love to see the Illini hero coming home. Johnson is a guy I don't have much opinion on, but I like the idea of signing him over drafting someone. His limited production in Arizona might make him a bargain. I was hopeful that the Bears would sign Jerry Porter but he went to the Jags for 6 years, $30 Million which might be a little more than I would have been willing to spend on him. Supposedly Johnson's agent and the Bears have worked well together in the past so that seems like a likely scenario.

Alan Faneca was originally rumored to be coming to the Bears but his price was simply too high. He's instead going to the Jets for 5 years, $40 Mil. This is a really disappointing considering how many holes an already weak O-Line has and if there isn't a OT available for the Bears worth the 14th pick we'll really be in a pickle.

Elsewhere, Michael Turner signed a fat deal with the Falcons. It's probably a really smart play for the Falcons. He'll give them an immediate upgrade and more importantly it takes McFadden out of play and lets them take the BPA in the draft or trade down. Warrick Dunn is almost certainly going to be cut.

[Omniscient]

The Bears yanked an offer to Special Teams Superstar Brendon Ayanbadejo off the table when Rosenhaus decided to shop him around. Looks like the Bears are a little bitter after the Briggs drama last season and the outcome of the Berrian sweepstakes. We'll see if he's back, but it seems like a longshot at this point.

Brian Griese was traded back to the Bucs for an undisclosed 2009 draft pick. This is a great development regardless of where that pick ends up being. They were about to cut him and this saves them a couple bucks on their cap and they gain what will probably be a second day pick next season. If it turns out to be better than a 6th or 7th rounder, all the better.

[Ellis Dee]

They were about to cut him and this saves them a couple bucks on their capHow do you figure? Cutting a player or trading them away has the same cap impact. Even when a player retires it triggers the same effect. There is no way to avoid cap penalties other than keeping the player on the payroll.In one of the worst weather cities in football, no less. Put him in a dome and we're probably talking 1600+ yards.This is no joke. Eli haters are quick to discount weather, but high winds make anybody's numbers noticeably worse. Cold, rain and snow, not as much, but wind is a passing game killer.

[Omniscient]

How do you figure? Cutting a player or trading them away has the same cap impact. Even when a player retires it triggers the same effect. There is no way to avoid cap penalties other than keeping the player on the payroll.

I could be wrong on this, but I thought that the signing bonus was prorated over the life of the contract. When a player is cut I believe the remaining portion of the signing bonus assigned to each unfulfilled year of the contract is totaled up and attached to that year's cap figure. By trading him with 3 years remaining Tampa assumes the burden of that signing bonus over the remaining life of his contract instead of the Bears.

[Omniscient]

Just did some Googling and learned that signing bonuses are accelerated in the same way regardless of if a player is waived, released or traded. Looks like you were right.

Here's to hoping that Griese wins the starting job and has a breakout season for the Bucs making that conditional draft pick a good one.

[Ellis Dee]

Just did some Googling and learned that signing bonuses are accelerated in the same way regardless of if a player is waived, released or traded. Looks like you were right.In the interest of full disclosure, I only know that because when Madden first introduced that feature I complained online about it being a bug, only to be told that that's how it works in real life too.

It definitely adds an interesting dynamic, where trading for a superstar has a huge incentive of carrying a relatively tiny cap footprint. For example, if you could somehow stockpile enough picks to trade for Peyton Manning, Ladainian Tomlinson, Randy Moss and a few other superstars, you'd probably end up well under the cap since the original teams would be carrying the signing bonuses.

Of course the teams would never trade those guys because the cap penalties would crush them. This is an important dynamic that a lot of people miss. Detractors will kill the NFLPA complaining about unguaranteed contracts, but any contract with a signing bonus has a pseudo-guarantee built in. If there is a large signing bonus, the first couple years base salary is effectively guaranteed because the team can't cut the player without torpedoing their cap.

That's probably why teams like the Falcons, Dolphins and Browns were so aggresive in trying to recoup signing bonuses from Michael Vick, Ricky Williams and Kellen Winslow, respectively.

[Omniscient]

It definitely adds an interesting dynamic, where trading for a superstar has a huge incentive of carrying a relatively tiny cap footprint. For example, if you could somehow stockpile enough picks to trade for Peyton Manning, Ladainian Tomlinson, Randy Moss and a few other superstars, you'd probably end up well under the cap since the original teams would be carrying the signing bonuses.
I'm sure this is no small reason why in the few instances where a star is traded his contract is almost always restructured as soon as he gets to his new team.

[SenorBeef]

I'm sure this is no small reason why in the few instances where a star is traded his contract is almost always restructured as soon as he gets to his new team.

They still get the full value of their contract - the signing bonus (the cash) is given to them shortly after they sign the contract and it's only broken up by year for salary cap purposes. So if they played out their contract with one team or with several, they'd still make the same amount of money total.

But... often teams want to lock up the new player with a long term deal, and the space is available, or the player sees a way to grab more cash, so deals are often redone after a trade.

But take Shaun Rogers for example - he still has 3 years on his contract left and Detroit paid the signing bonus and associated cap figure. I haven't heard of trying to extend or redo his contract, so the Browns get him at a discount (paying only salary and year to year bonuses) for the next 3 years.

[Omniscient]

But... often teams want to lock up the new player with a long term deal, and the space is available, or the player sees a way to grab more cash, so deals are often redone after a trade.


This is the angle I was going for. Players and their agents know that the new team is paying less than the previous team and therefore they use the opportunity to leverage a new deal. Granted this probably only works if you are a franchise QB or RB (maybe a WR in rare cases).

[Oslo Ostragoth]

I was just saying that it's made even more remarkable by the fact that he had to do receiving in weather like this (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter?game_id=29406&season=2007&displayPage=tab_gamecenter&week=REG15). (That clip, by the way, also has the greatest kick I've ever seen in the NFL).awesome video.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

awesome video.
Phil "Stanchion" Dawson....
:D :D

[Omniscient]

Just for completeness.

Brett Favre Retires (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=458347).

Good Riddance douchenozzle.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Man, he's smushed the Lions more times than I care to count.

[Gangster Octopus]

Just for completeness.

Brett Favre Retires (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=458347).

Good Riddance douchenozzle.

Maybe you should change your location to "Owned by Brett Favre".

[Omniscient]

Maybe you should change your location to "Owned by Brett Favre".

The Bears have won 6 of the last 8 meetings, with one of those losses in the final game last year with all our starters resting (and the other with Chad Hutchinson under center), and we've done it in dominating fashion. Favre has been our bitch since Lovie Smith arrived and Grossman and Orton are undefeated versus Favre.

I only wish Favre would have waited until after the draft so he could have further undermined the Pack's plans for the future. Eh, who am I kidding, he'd almost certainly change his mind between now and training camp and send Aaron Rodgers into fits.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

The Bears have won 6 of the last 8 meetings, with one of those losses in the final game last year with all our starters resting (and the other with Chad Hutchinson under center), and we've done it in dominating fashion. Favre has been our bitch since Lovie Smith arrived and Grossman and Orton are undefeated versus Favre.

I only wish Favre would have waited until after the draft so he could have further undermined the Pack's plans for the future. Eh, who am I kidding, he'd almost certainly change his mind between now and training camp and send Aaron Rodgers into fits.


Wouldn't be the first time that Aaron Rodgers cried in a green room.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Wouldn't be the first time that Aaron Rodgers cried in a green room.
Much as I dislike the Packers, I'm actually really looking forward to seeing Rodgers play. He really showed me something in the Cowboys game last season, and he's had plenty of time to learn the offense, much like Tony Romo a few years back.

That said, without Favre I'm seeing a very 8-8ish season in the cards for the Packers.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Much as I dislike the Packers, I'm actually really looking forward to seeing Rodgers play. He really showed me something in the Cowboys game last season, and he's had plenty of time to learn the offense, much like Tony Romo a few years back.

That said, without Favre I'm seeing a very 8-8ish season in the cards for the Packers.


I'm right with you. Rodgers showed some skillz and I'm anxious to see them for a full season.

[EsotericEnigma]

Javon Walker signed with the Raiders today.

You know, it isn't that I think Walker is an incredible WR, or even a great one, but I just want the Eagles to stop pretending they know what they're doing at this position. At this point they are actively sabotaging McNabb. One and a half seasons with a #1 WR? Really? In his entire career, that's all you can do? At least make an effort. Maybe Walker wasn't worth the risk (as if the Eagles can claim that, they make a habit out of signing oft-injured, near-washed up veterans), but give the team SOMETHING to work with. The likes of James Thrash, Todd Pinkston, Freddie Mitchell, Reggie Brown, Kevin Curtis, Torrance Small, and Charles Johnson aren't going to cut it. Other than TO for one and a half seasons, this is all McNabb has ever had to work with. It's disgusting.

Just to note, I think that Curtis is a great 2 or 3, and Brown can be a very good 2 with some polish. Neither is a #1, though.

[Omniscient]

In a strange turn of events, Marty Booker will be returning to the Bears (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/cs-080304-marty-booker-chicago-bears,1,4753269.story). He signed a 2-year deal and will presumably be the #1 guy coming into camp. I'm glad to have him back, he was good and consistent here, but they are going to have to find someone with a little more pop eventually.

[Really Not All That Bright]

In a strange turn of events, Marty Booker will be returning to the Bears (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/cs-080304-marty-booker-chicago-bears,1,4753269.story). He signed a 2-year deal and will presumably be the #1 guy coming into camp. I'm glad to have him back, he was good and consistent here, but they are going to have to find someone with a little more pop eventually.
There are 350-pound nose tackles in the league with more "pop" than Booker these days...

I can't get my head around the Bears' thinking here. Booker doesn't seem to have cost appreciably less than Muhammad would have, but is certainly appreciably less effective even given Moose's age.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

The Bears are regressing on offense. You guys need a running back, quarterback, and receivers. Outside of that, you're solid, but...damn.

[Omniscient]

Booker doesn't seem to have cost appreciably less than Muhammad would have, but is certainly appreciably less effective even given Moose's age.

I haven't seen figures on either players contract, but I have to assume that Booker's deal was quite a bit cheaper, and certainly both are cheaper than what Moose's existing contract would have been to stay. Moose has been putting up respectable numbers over the last couple years while Booker was toiling under a even more inept QB situation than the Bears.

Obviously we have to hope that Booker is better than he has shown the last couple years and that his decline had more to do with the mess that is the Dolphins. Can't say I've seen him play hardly at all in a couple years. Still, even if he has a renaissance he still shouldn't be more than a #3 possession WR who has a nose for the first down marker....which he used to excel at.

LOUNE, yeah, things are looking bleak. I really hope they have a plan because right now they seem clueless. It all centers around the disaster that is Cedric Benson, something I predicted 2 months before they drafted the shitstick. Though, if we are able to land a first round OT, Joe Flacco and a productive mid-round RB in the draft and sign Bryant Johnson for a fair price we might at least have something resembling progress, even if it will take a couple seasons to develop.

Eh, who am I kidding, that's a pipe dream.

[Hamlet]

The Bears are regressing on offense. You guys need a running back, quarterback, and receivers. Outside of that, you're solid, but...damn.You left out offensive line which also sucks. Miller and Brown are old as dirt and likely gone, Tait is still solid, but in the wrong position, and Kreutz is a rock. With only 2 O linemen that I would consider average or above, they're in big trouble there also. Their offensive woes will continue.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

The Bears' run blocking isn't too horrible in spurts. I don't know if Joe Flacco is the answer either. I'm not sold on Rex being useless still. If anything, you guys need to pour more resources into that offensive line. Bryant Johnson and a third-rounder for a receiver might be fine.

[Oslo Ostragoth]

The Bears are regressing on offense. You guys need a running back, quarterback, and receivers. Outside of that, you're solid, but...damn.Except for starting LT and a guard.

[Omniscient]

Except for starting LT and a guard.

I've been having fantasies where Jake Long slides out of the top 5 after seeing a couple Mock Drafts with that happening and the Bears trading up to take him. If it costs us our 2nd rounder to do it I might settle for the second best guy instead though, but that's just because I have a man-crush on Flacco right now. Atlanta might be willing to jump back a few spots if Matt Ryan is off the board.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

I've been having fantasies where Jake Long slides out of the top 5 after seeing a couple Mock Drafts with that happening and the Bears trading up to take him. If it costs us our 2nd rounder to do it I might settle for the second best guy instead though, but that's just because I have a man-crush on Flacco right now. Atlanta might be willing to jump back a few spots if Matt Ryan is off the board.


Sorry, your mantasies won't happen. (Mantasies, copyrighted by me right now)

No way Jake Long is sliding out of the top three. He probably should be pick 1. Flacco might be around, but I think the Bears would be better with a veteran pickup or two. You need a solid draft pick for a receiver. There are a lot of good receivers in this draft, though.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

What do you do when you pick up a risky guy in a trade? Try him out for a year and see if he'll play for a new contract? I mean especially if you've got him on the hook for at least three years....
Of course not! (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3277837) You sign him to a 6 year deal! I know the Brownsl need help up the middle for the future, but doesn't Shaun Rodgers bring enough questions with him to at least see if he's worth more than three years?

[Omniscient]

No way Jake Long is sliding out of the top three. He probably should be pick 1. Flacco might be around, but I think the Bears would be better with a veteran pickup or two. You need a solid draft pick for a receiver. There are a lot of good receivers in this draft, though.

I think Jake Long is a top 3 worthy pick as well but OT isn't the most pressing need for most of the teams drafting ahead of the Chiefs. Lots of people are projecting him to fall to 5th, and the Falcons might be eager to move out of the 4th pick after signing Turner if Ryan isn't there. Parcells is almost certain to take a defensive guy in Miami and if he takes Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey the Rams, the other team looking for a OT, will be very tempted to take Chris Long instead of Jake.

It's a stretch, but it's not inconceivable.

And while I agree that the Bears would be better off with a veteran, it's meaningless when there simply aren't any available. Nor does it appear any will be in the near future, that's why the signed Grossman, and you have to guess that that means they intend to find one in the draft. If Flacco is available in the second round I'll be doing backflips and when the Bears pass on him I'm going to commit Hari Kari.

[Omniscient]

What do you do when you pick up a risky guy in a trade? Try him out for a year and see if he'll play for a new contract? I mean especially if you've got him on the hook for at least three years....
Of course not! (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3277837) You sign him to a 6 year deal! I know the Brownsl need help up the middle for the future, but doesn't Shaun Rodgers bring enough questions with him to at least see if he's worth more than three years?
When I saw that I was gobsmacked. The Jets and Browns are spending like drunken sailors. I mean, wow.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

I think Jake Long is a top 3 worthy pick as well but OT isn't the most pressing need for most of the teams drafting ahead of the Chiefs. Lots of people are projecting him to fall to 5th, and the Falcons might be eager to move out of the 4th pick after signing Turner if Ryan isn't there. Parcells is almost certain to take a defensive guy in Miami and if he takes Sedrick Ellis or Glenn Dorsey the Rams, the other team looking for a OT, will be very tempted to take Chris Long instead of Jake.

It's a stretch, but it's not inconceivable.

And while I agree that the Bears would be better off with a veteran, it's meaningless when there simply aren't any available. Nor does it appear any will be in the near future, that's why the signed Grossman, and you have to guess that that means they intend to find one in the draft. If Flacco is available in the second round I'll be doing backflips and when the Bears pass on him I'm going to commit Hari Kari.


No way he drops to the Bears.

[Omniscient]

No way he drops to the Bears.
Who?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

The Bengals will draft at 9 or trade up to get Sedrick Ellis.....

[Really Not All That Bright]

The Bengals will draft at 9 or trade up to get Sedrick Ellis.....
...which means he'll be arrested sometime between April 9 and June 21.

Mark your calendars!

[dawson]

Sorry, your mantasies won't happen. (Mantasies, copyrighted by me right now)

No way Jake Long is sliding out of the top three. He probably should be pick 1. Flacco might be around, but I think the Bears would be better with a veteran pickup or two. You need a solid draft pick for a receiver. There are a lot of good receivers in this draft, though.


It's a sad day when a word like "mantasies" is used in a football conversation.
Stop the world, I'd like to get off now.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

No way he drops to the Bears.


Jake Long.



Hey, I didn't say I had a mantasy. I just created the word for the phenomenon.

[Omniscient]

Jake Long.
Never thought he'd drop to the Bears, but he might drop to the Falcons or Chiefs who are teams rumored to be eager to trade down, hence the Bears' chance at getting him.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Never thought he'd drop to the Bears, but he might drop to the Falcons or Chiefs who are teams rumored to be eager to trade down, hence the Bears' chance at getting him.


Won't happen. Franchise tackles get drafted and stay in one place until something goes wrong. See Jones, Walter or Ogden, Jonathan or Pace, Orlando or Samuels, Chris or even Boselli, Tony.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Won't happen. Franchise tackles get drafted and stay in one place until something goes wrong. See Jones, Walter or Ogden, Jonathan or Pace, Orlando or Samuels, Chris or even Boselli, Tony.
What about Luke Petitgout?

[Omniscient]

What about Luke Petitgout?
Or Robert Gallery, or Marc Columbo, or..

Fact is, a team that needs help at 10 positions will trade back if it can, regardless of if a franchise tackle is available. Franchise QBs are the only positions you draft in spite of other needs.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Or Robert Gallery, or Marc Columbo, or..

Fact is, a team that needs help at 10 positions will trade back if it can, regardless of if a franchise tackle is available. Franchise QBs are the only positions you draft in spite of other needs.
Well, re: Gallery, he did say if nothing goes wrong - and we can safely say at this point that Gallery "went wrong".

[Oslo Ostragoth]

Or Robert Gallery, or Marc Columbo, or...What exactly are you saying about Columbo?

[Least Original User Name Ever]

What about Luke Petitgout?

Like I said, Franchise tackles.

[Ellis Dee]

(Duplicate post erased. There was a duplicate post in the first place because THIS FUCKING BOARD IS A PIECE OF FUCKING SHIT RUN BY DROOLING INCOMPETENT MORONS.)

[Ellis Dee]

Won't happen. Franchise tackles get drafted and stay in one place until something goes wrong. See Jones, Walter or Ogden, Jonathan or Pace, Orlando or Samuels, Chris or even Boselli, Tony.

[Luke Petitgout?]

Like I said, Franchise tackles.You've reduced your original statement to be meaningless. Franchise tackles get drafted and stay in one place until something goes wrong because you are definining franchise tackles as those players who get drafted and stay in one place until something goes wrong.

Pretty much the No True Scotsman fallacy.

[SenorBeef]

You've reduced your original statement to be meaningless. Franchise tackles get drafted and stay in one place until something goes wrong because you are definining franchise tackles as those players who get drafted and stay in one place until something goes wrong.

Pretty much the No True Scotsman fallacy.


That's not really true... there are plenty of mediocre tackles who are drafted in one place and play their career there. "Franchise" is kind of an overused term which basically means you're one of the best at certain valuable positions. I've never heard Petitgout's name mentioned in terms of being a franchise tackle.

Joe Thomas has been talked about as one and I'm pretty surprised with him. I only watched his bowl game and in it he seemed like a technician who lacked strength and didn't play with heart, but he's been almost the opposite during this season, where he's been surprisingly good for a rookie LT (even Ogden started out at left guard), dominant at times.

The Shaun Rogers resign thing surprised me and a lot of fans aren't happy with it. Romeo must be convinced he can get the guy to play. He had a cap hit for us of something like 4, 5, and 7 million in his last years, and I thought we were going to let him play it out. This deal makes him cheaper in the near term, but more expensive towards the end. But... without the new deal, we could've cut him without penalty. I'm still iffy about the whole thing. I'm much more enthusiastic about Corey Williams.

Derek Anderson's contract is much more managable than it was reported. They said 14m guaranteed, but that counts roster bonuses, which aren't guaranteed. He only has a 7m signing bonus, and he has a 5m roster bonus due next year. So he'll have to play well to earn that, and he's easily tradable.

The Browns have given the impression of wasteful spending with big FA contracts these last few years, but we've been one of the leading teams in terms of cap room during all those years, and next year we're going to have 20-30m again. Aside from one or two players, the core of this team is locked up through 2010-2011.

[fluiddruid]

(Duplicate post erased. There was a duplicate post in the first place because THIS FUCKING BOARD IS A PIECE OF FUCKING SHIT RUN BY DROOLING INCOMPETENT MORONS.)Ellis Dee, I understand your frustration, but please keep complaints about the Board administration in the Pit.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

You've reduced your original statement to be meaningless. Franchise tackles get drafted and stay in one place until something goes wrong because you are definining franchise tackles as those players who get drafted and stay in one place until something goes wrong.

Pretty much the No True Scotsman fallacy.


It's not a fallacy. Luke Petitgout isn't a franchise tackle. Above average? Yeah. Franchise tackle? Only because there are so few completely dominant tackles out there.


Franchise tackles very rarely hit free agency. Same with true franchise cornerbacks.

[Wee Bairn]

I'm betting if the Pack starts out 2-3 or so and everyone is playing well but Rogers, he'll be back.

[Omniscient]

It's not a fallacy. Luke Petitgout isn't a franchise tackle. Above average? Yeah. Franchise tackle? Only because there are so few completely dominant tackles out there.


Franchise tackles very rarely hit free agency. Same with true franchise cornerbacks.

Yes, but that wasn't the argument you were trying to make. You were saying that "franchise" tackles were drafted high and stayed with their team forever. The clear implication that highly rated and early projected tackles do not fall in the draft because team know they will have them forever and that they are reliably good. This simply isn't true. There are plenty of examples of highly rated tackles, all labeled as franchise guys before the draft, who both fell out of the top 5 and who either flopped or were traded/cut after their rookie contracts ran out.

I'd say they are a little more reliable than elite WR and RB prospects, but they aren't such rarities that teams draft them in spite of all else.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

...which means he'll be arrested sometime between April 9 and June 21.

Mark your calendars!
Ha ha. I am actually pretty tired of having my team being labelled as the poster child for malfeasance in the NFL. There were plenty of other players on other teams (even multiple players, like in San Diego...Kiel, Foley ((shot by the police!)) and RoidMerriman) that committed far more egregious acts (Tank in CHI, KC's DE multiple-DUI offender who's name escapes me now) and suffered LESS substantial punishment from the league as well as flying under the sports media radar.
Why?
Because it's easy to pick on the Bengals because they were so bad for so long.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Ha ha. I am actually pretty tired of having my team being labelled as the poster child for malfeasance in the NFL. There were plenty of other players on other teams (even multiple players, like in San Diego...Kiel, Foley ((shot by the police!)) and RoidMerriman) that committed far more egregious acts (Tank in CHI, KC's DE multiple-DUI offender who's name escapes me now) and suffered LESS substantial punishment from the league as well as flying under the sports media radar.
Why?
Because it's easy to pick on the Bengals because they were so bad for so long.
Jared Allen.

Think that's bad? Leonard Little of the Rams killed someone while DUI and he got a 4-game suspension, IIRC - yet Pacman Jones and Odell Thurman got a year.

Goodell is not good at placing value judgments on criminal offenses (or accusations).