Anyone else think Guitar Hero is way too...well, narrow? [Archive]

DKW

02-22-2008, 01:38 PM

This has been gnawing at me for a long time, and the announcement of the new Guitar Hero: Aerosmith made it unavoidable. (And hey, first post on the new board is always cool! :) )

I'm as fanatical about music games as anybody. More than half of the games I have total are music games, in fact. There's just something about the simplicity of following a notechart, the challenge of doing so accurately (which gets really challenging at the highets levels), and the all-around awesome music that results that's infinitely appealing to me.

Rock? Love it! Can't get enough! Memories, Buffalo, Wana, pretty much anything by Kozo Nakamura, play them all the time. I'm pretty much the only person I know who gives Used to Rock 'n Roll the time of day, for crying out loud. (You've probably never heard of these songs...go to bemanistyle.com if you'd like a primer.)

By rights, I should've been over Guitar Hero like a hungry dog on a steak. New York cut. And seasoned. But I've never warmed up to it, and it looks unlikely that I ever will.

My problem isn't that GH encompasses only one genre of music. My problem is that it encompasses only a tiny part of that genre. Loud, forceful, headbanging, thrashy. Three games and a bunch of assorted side titles and counting. Legends of Rock? The 80's? Aerosmith? All different names for essentially the same thing.

Where's the pop side? Bruce Springsteen, Huey Lewis and the News, Mike and the Mechanics, Bon Jovi, Katrina and the Waves, Heart, Steve Winwood, Pat Benatar. Shouldn't a mainstream music game about the most populist music in the world reflect the bread and butter?

Where's the alternative side? R.E.M., No Doubt, Deep Blue Something, Goo Goo Dolls, Vertical...oh, just check my last American Idol post. Edgy, defiant rock that became so immensely popular, it defined the mainstream for the 90's. If this game is supposed to be aimed at gamers in their 30's (not sure about that, but never mind)...hey, I'm in my 30's, and this is my music!

Where's the progressive/spiritual/offbeat? Martin Page, Genesis, Chris DeBurgh, Michael W. Smith, Mr. Mister, Men Without Hats. Not every rocker is into drugs and booze and cheap sex and weird hair colors. The more thoughtful side deserves a little attention.

Where's the big beat? Fatboy Slim, The Crystal Method, Chemical Brothers. Deep, rythmic, pounding, hard-edged...it'd be perfect.

Where's the freakin' rock & roll?? Dire Straits, Paul Herzog, Creedence Clearwater Revival, The Eagles, heck, even Elvis Presley himself. How in blazes do you market a game as rock, rock, rock, and not have any rock & roll? Why do you think the Hall of Fame is called that?

Yes, I like the thrashy, headbangy stuff. No, I don't want it all the time. There's so much ground here that hasn't even been touched yet. Why not?

[Caveat: I've played it a few times, and it is a pretty fun game once you get past the limited song variety. MAYBE I'll get it someday if it gets really cheap. My point is, it should've been a much, much easier decision.]

Asimovian

02-22-2008, 01:46 PM

Pssst....over here (http://www.amazon.com/MTV-Games-Rock-Special-Edition/dp/B000TSX3TS/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1203709576&sr=8-3).

Zsofia

02-22-2008, 01:52 PM

What I want to know is where is the blues?

fluiddruid

02-22-2008, 01:54 PM

I would literally buy an XBox 360 or whatever if Guitar Hero (or Rock Band) had some 1970s era Genesis songs to play.

I bought the original GH and have played the others. Not bad, but I agree, the music style is pretty limited and I get bored with playing a lot of songs I don't know or don't particularly like.

pulykamell

02-22-2008, 01:59 PM

Please shoot me if "Breakfast at Tiffany's" ever makes it in a guitar-based game.

Anyhow, the problem you have is that a lot of those songs would make for very boring guitar lines (Fatboy Slim? How are you going to do Fatboy Slim in a guitar game without boring your player to tears from a repetitive guitar line? Mind you, I actually don't have anything against Fatboy Slim.)

The newest version of Guitar Hero has one of my favorite songs in it: "She Bangs the Drums" by the Stone Roses. It fits into your alternative category, but is boring as hell to play, even on expert, because it's not really a Guitar Song in the way that the hard-rockers you lament are.

That said, a lot of the bands you're saying are not represented are.

You have Heart (Barracuda). You have Pat Benatar (Hit Me With Your Last Shot). I'm not sure how you're defining "alternative," but there's plenty of bands represented that would have been called alternative at one time or another (Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Sonic Youth, Stone Roses, Rage Against the Machine, Rancid, Weezer, just to name a few...).

I think that for a game based on songs that need good guitar riffage or just interesting guitar lines in general, and a game that will play well on a five-button fretboard, the Guitar Hero series does a good job of balancing gameplay with fun and varied songs.

Dangerosa

02-22-2008, 02:48 PM

What I want to know is where is the blues?

I want Christmas songs. I think it would be a cool party game around Christmas time.

They are really just hitting stride with their franchise. I think you'll see more GH games that are targeted to bands, eras, or genre. Where there is money to be made, they'll milk it.

Lama Pacos

02-22-2008, 03:54 PM

Jragon

02-22-2008, 04:05 PM

I guess the thing I really don't get about Guitar Hero is how playing such a blatantly finite set of songs can stay entertaining. I mean, obviously any game is going to be limited in the new possibilities it offers, but I feel like few are so noticeably so.
The same way playing the exact same game of space invaders or Pac-Man is entertaining. Score inflating and betterment of self or others. I can personally say I still play some of the songs because I have a personal vendetta against them from failing on them so many times.

Captain_C

02-23-2008, 01:18 AM

I want Christmas songs. I think it would be a cool party game around Christmas time.

Pssst, over here. (http://www.vml.com/handbellhero/)

SenorBeef

02-23-2008, 01:50 AM

I guess the thing I really don't get about Guitar Hero is how playing such a blatantly finite set of songs can stay entertaining. I mean, obviously any game is going to be limited in the new possibilities it offers, but I feel like few are so noticeably so.

Rock Band is going heavy on the downloadable content with 3+ new songs released per week, you have to buy them though. They'll be releasing entire albums in the future..... I'm really hoping the undecided metallica album will be Master Of Puppets - they already have songs from the other albums but haven't touched Puppets yet. If they do Load or Reload or something there will be a whole lot of people that will be pissed.

But they picked songs like Blackened and And Justice For All for the game, so they seem to appreciate the good Metallica.

And to the OP: Yeah, someone else nailed it - a lot of the music that you listed would be really boring to play even if they're likable songs. The type of music they include tends feature guitar work very prominently.

Airman Doors, USAF

02-23-2008, 02:15 AM

I guess the thing I really don't get about Guitar Hero is how playing such a blatantly finite set of songs can stay entertaining. I mean, obviously any game is going to be limited in the new possibilities it offers, but I feel like few are so noticeably so.

Play this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9ao_vOsZkg) as well as this guy on the same level, and you'll see why: people work their way up to hella challenges. I see what the guy is doing, yet I still don't believe it. The word is that the guy who actually played it only got 12% on expert for this song.

TripleTee

02-23-2008, 07:20 AM

Glory

02-23-2008, 11:19 AM

Jragon

02-23-2008, 11:50 AM

Umm no one mentioned licensing??? The reason those songs are not present is because the record labels and artists have not given their permission to the game companies to USE their songs. It's all about money.

I personally think artists do not realize what a benefit it could be to their music to have their songs being played in video games, which is a multi-billion dollar industry, surpassing even the motion picture industry. Hopefully more and more of them will get on the bandwagon. Aerosmith has realized how this could bring their music to another generation.

Isn't it the producer/label that decides these things? From what I know from my marching band and the University down here trying to get a U2 marching show for years the producer is the one making decisions like this. Extra point, Wierd Al wanted to parody "You're Beautiful" James Blunt gave permission, Atlantic Records did not, so he didn't release it commercially.

Either way same point, but the band can like the idea all they want but if the record company is being stupid it's not getting out.

Sam Stone

02-23-2008, 12:20 PM

You're going to see a flood of good downloadable content soon. Early on, bands wouldn't consent to allowing their music in Guitar Hero because they thought it was 'selling out' to put their music in a game so people could play it on plastic instruments. Owners of the content worried about damaging the band's image. The creative forces worried about having the music changed to fit the format (the songs sound a little different when split into multiple tracks and remixed so the various parts stand out).

That's all changed. First, the Rock Band guys sold their product not just as a game, but as a vehicle for experiencing music interactively. They didn't treat it like a cartoon, as the latest Guitar Hero does. Second, the various companies involved were bought out or partnered with large companies with serious influence in the music industry - MTV, for example.

But most importantly, they're selling a giant whack of songs. Rock Band has already racked up more than 3 million paid downloads - at twice the price of a regular music track. Also, the bands that are in the game are all experiencing a significant revival. Old bands like Kansas are seeing their touring audiences grow dramatically, and their fans are now trending younger again. Back catalog songs that are in the game are selling in huge numbers. "Carry On Wayward Son" sold 119,000 copies digitally in 2006 before the Guitar Hero game that contains it went on sale - and 297,000 in 2007. Cheap Trick's 'Surrender' went from 58,000 sales to 161,000.

Those are huge numbers - for a 30 year old song to sell a third of a million copies in one year is amazing. And the 'Guitar Hero Effect' will probably get stronger as these games trickle more into the mainstream and overall sales increase.

We're at the point now where bands are actively soliciting the game manufacturers to try to get their songs into the games, just like they used to try to get their videos on MTV.

This is pretty much the only bright spot for the music industry these days. Well, that and ringtones.

tanstaafl

02-23-2008, 04:01 PM

It's admittedly a very different game than Guitar Hero or Rock Band but you may want to look at Audiosurf (http://www.audio-surf.com/). Instead of hitting buttons on a controller you're trying to drive over them with a vehicle, but instead of coming with a limited set of songs it allows you to use any mp3 file you have in your personal music collection. (It's being distributed by Valve so it does come with the Orange Box soundtrack but you can play it with anything you have.)

ETA - For an example, here's Through the Fire and Flames (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/160659.html) in Audiosurf.

Dangerosa

02-23-2008, 04:47 PM

TripleTee and Sam have nailed it - the first GHs were unproven - so you had bands you've never heard of because you could get very little licensing for famous bands. Now, bands and record companies are seeing GH as a marketing machine - so the nature of the music will change.

John DiFool

02-23-2008, 04:59 PM

I'm guessing that you can't mod in any song that you want?

Jragon

02-23-2008, 05:56 PM

I'm guessing that you can't mod in any song that you want?

You can, but it
1. Takes a lot of work
2. The key charts usually suck
3. Requires a modded console (illegal)
4. Requires you to rip the game, edit the files and burn a custom one (illegal)

So... I suppose you CAN, but it's not easy or legal (not that the latter point really stopped anyone before)

DKW

02-25-2008, 01:24 AM

Okay, the requirement for a song getting into Guitar Hero is a guitar part with lots of variety? Most R&B falls into that category. I doubt it's that simple. Anyway, I've played the first two games (one full version, two demos), and there's a pretty nice progression from super-easy to intense, so it's not like there's no place whatsoever for simplicity. Kinda doubt that licensing fees are a big issue, either...every song is licensed, and anyway, wouldn't, say, Citizen King or Chumbawamba be a lot cheaper than megastars like KISS?

Naw...it's an image issue, plain and simple. Activision is very unsubtly pushing a very specific image, and something along the lines of Gin Blossoms or Steve Winwood would upset it. Fine and good; it's their game, they can design it any way they like. Just don't think it's a good idea to stick with one image indefinitely. It's been, what, six or seven games? They can branch out. At the very least give a nod to rock 'n roll. If that's not an ironclad requirement, it should be! :)

I probably should've asked this earlier, but has anyone here heard of two closely related games called Guitar Freaks and Drummania? (So close, in fact, that most of us don't even bother separating them; the whole shebang is known as "Gitadora" or simply "GFDM".) It a guitar/drumming game that didn't last too long in America but has gone on forever (and is still going on) in Japan. Bemanistyle.com (and some other sites) has details. The variety of music is incredible...far greater than you'll see in any stateside music game, much less Guitar Hero...and despite the guitar side having only three frets, the notecharts can reach truly astounding difficulties. Overall, Bemani's (Konami's division that makes GFDM, Dance Dance Revolution, and several other music games) attitude is that if you need a complex notechart, you make a complex notechart. That's why I have trouble believing that excluding alternative, pop, big beat etc. is necessary.

TripleTee

02-25-2008, 09:58 AM

Okay, the requirement for a song getting into Guitar Hero is a guitar part with lots of variety? Most R&B falls into that category. I doubt it's that simple. Anyway, I've played the first two games (one full version, two demos), and there's a pretty nice progression from super-easy to intense, so it's not like there's no place whatsoever for simplicity. Kinda doubt that licensing fees are a big issue, either...every song is licensed, and anyway, wouldn't, say, Citizen King or Chumbawamba be a lot cheaper than megastars like KISS?.

It's not necessarily the licensing FEES, it's whether the owner of the rights will release the song at all, for any price. Musicians are understandably protective of how their music is used. I promise there are tons of musicians who would never allow their music to appear in a video game, for ANY price. I can tell you right now that there will never, ever be a Beatles song in any Guitar Hero. Nor will there ever be an Eagles song. There are probably many more.

If you noticed, even the groups and labels that HAVE allowed songs to be used will only allow cover songs to be used, NOT the original. So even in the cases where they will license the song, they are only licensing a COVER of the song, and not the original music. There are only a handful of original versions of songs in the Guitar Hero series. Now this may change somewhat over time. More groups will see the benefit of allowing their music to be used. But not all will.

Justin_Bailey

02-25-2008, 10:14 AM

If you noticed, even the groups and labels that HAVE allowed songs to be used will only allow cover songs to be used, NOT the original. So even in the cases where they will license the song, they are only licensing a COVER of the song, and not the original music. There are only a handful of original versions of songs in the Guitar Hero series. Now this may change somewhat over time. More groups will see the benefit of allowing their music to be used. But not all will.

You might want to replace "in time" to "now." With the release of Guitar Hero III and Rock Band, most of the songs have gone from covers to originals.

This happened because many bands and the record labels realize there's plenty of money in games like GH and RB. In fact, nearly every week since the games have been released, Billboard has an article highlighting a song that was included in either game that is now selling like mad on iTunes.

Any snobbery bands have over Guitar Hero and the like is over. They may not understand video games, but money is what they want.

Asimovian

02-25-2008, 10:50 AM

Sam Stone, great post! I specifically wanted to comment on this:

But most importantly, they're selling a giant whack of songs. Rock Band has already racked up more than 3 million paid downloads - at twice the price of a regular music track. Also, the bands that are in the game are all experiencing a significant revival. Old bands like Kansas are seeing their touring audiences grow dramatically, and their fans are now trending younger again. Back catalog songs that are in the game are selling in huge numbers. "Carry On Wayward Son" sold 119,000 copies digitally in 2006 before the Guitar Hero game that contains it went on sale - and 297,000 in 2007. Cheap Trick's 'Surrender' went from 58,000 sales to 161,000.

Those are huge numbers - for a 30 year old song to sell a third of a million copies in one year is amazing. And the 'Guitar Hero Effect' will probably get stronger as these games trickle more into the mainstream and overall sales increase.I just heard on the radio yesterday that The Outlaws of "Green Grass and High Tides" fame (which happens to be in Rock Band) are suddenly going back on tour. I don't know for sure if the two are related, but I can say that I didn't know anything of the song or the band before the game came out, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who falls into that category.

Eonwe

02-25-2008, 10:51 AM

But most importantly, they're selling a giant whack of songs. Rock Band has already racked up more than 3 million paid downloads - at twice the price of a regular music track. Also, the bands that are in the game are all experiencing a significant revival. Old bands like Kansas are seeing their touring audiences grow dramatically, and their fans are now trending younger again. Back catalog songs that are in the game are selling in huge numbers. "Carry On Wayward Son" sold 119,000 copies digitally in 2006 before the Guitar Hero game that contains it went on sale - and 297,000 in 2007. Cheap Trick's 'Surrender' went from 58,000 sales to 161,000.

Those are huge numbers - for a 30 year old song to sell a third of a million copies in one year is amazing. And the 'Guitar Hero Effect' will probably get stronger as these games trickle more into the mainstream and overall sales increase.

When my roommate bought Guitar Hero III, I decided the worst song in the entire game was Poison's Talk Dirty to Me. A miserable excuse for a song with poor orchestration, unlistenable lyrics, and an awfully written chorus. Fortunately, I'd never heard the thing before, and aside from having to play it once at each difficulty I'd never have to hear it again . . .

. . . until . . .

. . . it showed up on the radio this weekend!!! Gah! That which had been properly relegated to music oblivion now walks among us. God have mercy on our souls!

TripleTee

02-25-2008, 01:12 PM

You might want to replace "in time" to "now." With the release of Guitar Hero III and Rock Band, most of the songs have gone from covers to originals.

The good songs are mostly still covers. I don't have Rock Band so maybe someone else can comment on that game, but in Guitar Hero III, songs by Pat Benatar, Poison, Foghat, Social Distortion, Kiss, Mountain, Alice Cooper, Cream, Heart, The Who, Black Sabbath, ZZ Top, Santana, White Zombie, Stevie Ray Vaughn, and others are covers. In fact, looking at the list it appears that it's the older groups who are allowing covers but not original recordings. Lots of new groups apparently don't have the same problem.

Although Aerosmith didn't seem to mind. Hence they get an entire game devoted to them. Which is fine by me.

pulykamell

02-25-2008, 01:20 PM

I don't have Rock Band so maybe someone else can comment on that game.

Only 7 of the 45 main tracks are covers on Rock Band.

Dangerosa

02-25-2008, 01:22 PM

The good songs are mostly still covers. I don't have Rock Band so maybe someone else can comment on that game, but in Guitar Hero III, songs by Pat Benatar, Poison, Foghat, Social Distortion, Kiss, Mountain, Alice Cooper, Cream, Heart, The Who, Black Sabbath, ZZ Top, Santana, White Zombie, Stevie Ray Vaughn, and others are covers. In fact, looking at the list it appears that it's the older groups who are allowing covers but not original recordings. Lots of new groups apparently don't have the same problem.

Although Aerosmith didn't seem to mind. Hence they get an entire game devoted to them. Which is fine by me.

Which may have something to do with the age of the bandmembers themselves. I remember reading an article about the LotRs video game where the younger cast members were delighted to be in a video game and the older cast members didn't get it. So younger bands may just think its cool to actually have their own recordings used, while older bands may think "whatever."

Justin_Bailey

02-25-2008, 01:30 PM

The good songs are mostly still covers. I don't have Rock Band so maybe someone else can comment on that game, but in Guitar Hero III, songs by Pat Benatar, Poison, Foghat, Social Distortion, Kiss, Mountain, Alice Cooper, Cream, Heart, The Who, Black Sabbath, ZZ Top, Santana, White Zombie, Stevie Ray Vaughn, and others are covers. In fact, looking at the list it appears that it's the older groups who are allowing covers but not original recordings. Lots of new groups apparently don't have the same problem.

It may also be a case where the master recordings are no good anymore. See "Cult of Personality" and "Anarchy in the UK" in Guitar Hero III. Both songs are original recordings that were redone by the groups because the "original" original recordings were unusable.

Asimovian

02-25-2008, 01:46 PM

It may also be a case where the master recordings are no good anymore. See "Cult of Personality" and "Anarchy in the UK" in Guitar Hero III. Both songs are original recordings that were redone by the groups because the "original" original recordings were unusable.It is also my understanding that, in some cases, at least, the tracks were mixed together in a way that made them inseparable for Rock Band. So if, for example, you have your drummer in the game make a mistake, only the drum portion of the song should drop out. But if the drum and vocals are on the same track in the master, there's no way to make that happen. My hearsay understanding is that it was more common for the instrument tracks to be mixed together in older recordings, but since I don't have any independent knowledge of that, it could be bogus.

What's most perplexing for us is why the Coheed & Cambria song that was part of the original Rock Band soundtrack had the master track, but a recently released downloadable track by them is a cover. I haven't heard any official word on why that would be. I wonder if the two songs were done under different record labels. Does Rock Band/Guitar Hero need permission from the labels as well as the artists?

JayRx1981

02-25-2008, 02:25 PM

My understanding, thanks to MTV's industry clout (or whatever's left of it), is that Rock Band (Harmonix/MTV Games) was able to get permissions for original band recordings more easily than Guitar Hero (Neversoft/Activision) since MTV works so closely with the recording industry.

Justin_Bailey

02-25-2008, 02:39 PM

Does Rock Band/Guitar Hero need permission from the labels as well as the artists?

Yes. I'm not sure who has ultimate say in whether a song is included as a master track or a cover, or even who has final say if a song is included at all, but both the label and the artist are both involved.

JayRx1981 is also correct on the reason why Rock Band has a higher percentage of master tracks than Guitar Hero. However, Guitar Hero's name brand recognition and ridiculous sales will likely close that gap for any future GH games.

Ludovic

02-25-2008, 03:24 PM

What's most perplexing for us is why the Coheed & Cambria song that was part of the original Rock Band soundtrack had the master track, but a recently released downloadable track by them is a cover.BTW what was that downloadable track? I played Welcome Home and it was a lot more fun than I expected, bowdlerized lyrics aside. (It also helps that it isn't my favorite Co&Ca song, and one that I like to sing along with anyway. If it were one of my top 5 I wouldn't enjoy it as much as it would ruin the song for me after awhile.)

So in that vein, I'm hoping it's Ten Speed, or Gravemakers & Gunslingers :)

Justin_Bailey

02-25-2008, 03:35 PM

So in that vein, I'm hoping it's Ten Speed, or Gravemakers & Gunslingers :)

Yeah, it's "Ten Speed"

iamthewalrus(:3=

02-25-2008, 04:33 PM

There are a lot of misconceptions about the legal rights involved in Guitar Hero (and other things) in this thread.

Weird Al gets permission from the artists and labels as a courtesy only. Parody is protected under copyright law, and he does not legally have to get permission.
The makers of music video games do not have to negotiate for the rights to the songs they include in the games. They have to secure the rights to cover the song, and pay appropriate royalties, but those rights and the rates they pay are mandatory under US law. It's not like they have to gather around a boardroom table and hash out a detailed agreement with the musicians. They just sent a legal document and a check every once in a while. A songwriter cannot prevent you from making your own cover of a song, and they can't prevent you from making your own cover of a song and putting it in a video game, either. All they can do is require you to pay a certain amount to them for each copy made (as specified in law).
In the case of original recordings, the game producers would have to negotiate for mechanical reproduction rights with whoever owns them. That might be the bands, and it might be a label.

Sam Stone

02-25-2008, 04:54 PM

It's not quite that simple. Artists also have 'moral rights' to their songs which they can use to block use of the song in any way. For instance, if the KKK decides to use "Knights in White Satin" as their theme song, the songwriter can take them to court and stop them from using it, even if they're willing to pay all licensing fees.

Also, for a song to be used in a commercial for a product, don't the creators of the song have to approve? Or can I use "Let it Be" as the jingle for my product by simply paying appropriate licensing fees?

Putting a song in a video game is a little different than playing it on the CD player in a bar or using it in a movie soundtrack - especially if you're ripping the song apart and playing the tracks separately. I don't know if it rises to the level of a 'moral rights' issue, but I wouldn't be surprised if the lawyers for these games decided that it was better to be safe than sorry and only use tracks when they can secure explicit permission from the creators.

Justin_Bailey

02-25-2008, 06:17 PM

The makers of music video games do not have to negotiate for the rights to the songs they include in the games. They have to secure the rights to cover the song, and pay appropriate royalties, but those rights and the rates they pay are mandatory under US law. It's not like they have to gather around a boardroom table and hash out a detailed agreement with the musicians. They just sent a legal document and a check every once in a while. A songwriter cannot prevent you from making your own cover of a song, and they can't prevent you from making your own cover of a song and putting it in a video game, either. All they can do is require you to pay a certain amount to them for each copy made (as specified in law).

If this were true then why wouldn't Activision/RedOctane load up a Guitar Hero sequel with all of the songs fans want. GH players have been screaming for more Ramones and Green Day (any Green Day) since the beginning. And still nothing.

Plus, look at the Romantics lawsuit against Activision for making a cover that they thought was "too close" to the original even though Activision got all of the needed clearances. While it may not be legally "needed", the artist is involved, at least partially.