A friend going back into the Army

[Johnny L.A.]

A friend of mine was a sergeant in the Army, a Scout. He was discharged, started a business, was successful, got burned out, closed the business, and moved across the state. I got an email from him today saying the 'Army has its meat hooks' in him and it looks as if he may have to report on the first of the month.

First: What are the Scouts? He's mentioned a few things, but I'm not clear on it.

Second: What's the deal with recalling soldiers after they've put in their time and have been discharged?

Again, I'm not clear on the whole story. There seems to have been some sort of choice: He could re-join and get a choice of assignments, or he could get recalled and be put wherever the Army decides to put him. I don't know what he chose. Last I saw him was at his wedding a few weeks ago, and it sounded as if he was trying to figure out what to do.

[Raguleader]

When you enlist, IIRC, it's normally for so-many years of active duty (I signed up for 6 years in the Air Force, but many folks sign up for 4, and I've heard of folks doing 2 years in the Army), and around 8 years total, with the balance of your time not in Active Duty or the Reserves in the Inactive Ready Reserve, which is basically a talent pool of servicemembers who have been trained, have done the military thing, but aren't on the payroll, and so aren't currently training.

After you get out, you have so much time to spend in the IRR where you can be recalled to active duty by Uncle Sam if they decide they need some extra manpower, but otherwise are free to pursue a civilian life.

As for what Scouts do, I dunno, but I'm curious about that too.

[Loach]

Most likely he was a Cavalry Scout, which is MOS 19D. (http://www.us-army-info.com/pages/mos/armor/19d.html) It is basically the Armor Branch's version of Infantry. As the name suggests, they scout. There are used to guard, screen or cover the main body of a unit. They are generally not used in a stand up fight. They are trained to find and fix the enemy so a larger force can take them out. In general they are trained to sneak rather than fight. They can fight out of either Bradleys or scout Humvees. Of course that is per doctrine. In Iraq they are used pretty much the same as infantry.

As to the him going back, I don't think you have the whole story. The only way the army could easily bring him back is if he is not yet done with his initial commitment. Everybody signs up initially for 8 years. Usually you don't sign for the full ammount for active duty. You sign with the understanding that after your 4 or 6 years of active the remainder of your commitment will be in the Inactive Ready Reserve. When your 8 years are up then you get your discharge. If he is past his 8 years then he either voluntarily decided to stay in the IRR or he signed back up and he isn't telling you.

[Johnny L.A.]

Loach: That sounds familiar. He did mention being in Bradleys and sneaking around.

[Monty]

Once someone enters the United States Armed Forces, they incur an 8 year Military Service Obligation. That obligation includes both Active and Inactive time. Those who complete their required Active Duty prior to eight years are not discharged. They are released from Active Duty and transferred to a Reserve component. At the 8 year mark, they are then discharged from that component.

Those of us who have retired from the Armed Forces are subject to recall to Active Duty for a certain number of years (or until we reach a certain age; I don't rememeber right now and am too lazy to look it up). For example, one of my older brothers had retired from the Reserves and got recalled to Active Duty and sent to the Mid-East for one year.

[Johnny L.A.]

Turns out he joined in 2000.

[Loach]

I'm not saying that it is impossible that he is being called up involuntarily. I just find it hard to believe, especially with less than one year to go in his obligation. Several thousand IRR soldiers have been called up since 911. A lot fewer than many would think from listening to the media. A large percentage of the call ups were voluntary (one cite said over half but I'm not sure if that is true). Most of the involuntary call ups were for very specific jobs, not scouts or infantry. Many of them have been officers. Most if not all were taken with more than 2 years left in their obligation.

Are you sure that he isn't being asked to join a TPU unit in the Army Reserve? Global Security explains it pretty well

Since early May 2004, the Army Reserve's Retention and Transition Division has been contacting Individual Ready Reserve (IRR) Soldiers with a remaining Mandatory Service Obligation (MSO) to solicit their voluntary transfer from the IRR to Army Reserve Troop Program Units (TPU). In conjunction with a screening of the IRR population by HRC-St. Louis, this effort was intended to match the skills of IRR Soldiers with units in their local areas, thereby enhancing the readiness of the Army Reserve.

This effort may have been presented as something beyond a purely voluntary endeavor. As a result, there may be some Soldiers who feel that they were misled or pressured into joining a Reserve unit, when, in fact, that was not the intention of this voluntary transition initiative. Soldiers who believe they were unduly pressured into transferring to an Army Reserve unit, or that facts were misrepresented in the process of such a transfer action, may seek redress through the U.S. Army Reserve Command Retention and Transition Office. Transfer orders determined to be the result of coercion or misrepresentation can be revoked, if such allegations are confirmed.

[DrCube]

There seems to have been some sort of choice: He could re-join and get a choice of assignments, or he could get recalled and be put wherever the Army decides to put him.
I got recalled back into the Army while in the IRR; I'm here in Iraq serving out my time right now.

Here's the deal: If he got orders, he has to report, pure and simple. There's no choice at all. If he didn't get orders, and he joined up in 2000 with an 8 year commitment, he might just slip through without being recalled. Although he could technically be recalled on his last day of IRR time, and then stop-lossed for another year (or 15 months) while deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.

If he wants to sign back up, there is an excellent TPU program going on that Loach alluded to: Re-enlist for three years with a local reserve unit, get a $5000 bonus and "two years stabilization". (I used scare quotes because I've personally known people who thought they were stabilized but got deployed anyway. So I don't know if I trust that guarantee.) They might have presented him with that option, along with a description of all the IRRs getting called up, leaving the impression that his choice is to join a TPU or get recalled.

Oh, and Loach: I got called up involuntarily, with less than 2 years left. My roommate right now is also IRR and his 8 years are already up. Everyone else who reported to Ft. Jackson at the same time as us (around 70 soldiers, though supposedly almost twice that many were called up and didn't show) were involuntary. We met up with some IRRs who got called up to Ft. Benning, and they said about the same number were called up there, all involuntary. So it isn't hard at all for me to believe that this guy is getting called up involuntarily with less than a year left. We're all getting ready to go back home this summer, so maybe the OP's friend is coming to replace us.

[Bear_Nenno]

Loach: That sounds familiar. He did mention being in Bradleys and sneaking around.
Sneaking around in a Bradley?? :O

[racer72]

Once someone enters the United States Armed Forces, they incur an 8 year Military Service Obligation. That obligation includes both Active and Inactive time.
When did it change to 8 years? It was only 6 years for me back in the 70's and for a nephew that went into the Air Force in the mid 90's.

[Monty]

1980s. When I entered the Armed Forces in the very late 1970s (as in 1979), it was six years. Last I heard, the MSO has not been decreased.

[Monty]

Here is a PDF of the DD Form 4 Enlistment/Reenlistment Document Armed Forces of the United States, version dated October 2007. (http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/infomgt/forms/eforms/dd0004.pdf) You will notice, on page 2 of the DD 4/1, Section C, Item 10, a detailed explanation of the eight year MSO. My guess is that either you or your nephew misremembered the obligatory period for him.

[Johnny L.A.]

Sneaking around in a Bradley?? :O
Separate events. ;)

[Antinor01]

I got recalled back into the Army while in the IRR; I'm here in Iraq serving out my time right now.

Here's the deal: If he got orders, he has to report, pure and simple. There's no choice at all. If he didn't get orders, and he joined up in 2000 with an 8 year commitment, he might just slip through without being recalled. Although he could technically be recalled on his last day of IRR time, and then stop-lossed for another year (or 15 months) while deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.

Am I reading this right? You're saying that you can be on the last day of your eight years and then get called back for 15 months for a total of 9 years 3 months? That's not much of an 8 year commitment if it can last over 9.

[GomiBoy]

Sneaking around in a Bradley?? :O

Compared to the noise, smoke, and dust of a couple dozen M1 Abrams and all the armored support vehicles, sure... we're talking scout for a larger armored unit, not true reconnaissance.

More likely his mission was avoiding contact with a larger opposing armored force while pinpointing their location and moving about the field of engagement outside of the line of sight of the larger armored unit.

Enlistment became an 8 year commitment before 1991 at least, because I had an 8 year (4 active 4 IRR) commitment. I used up my IRR commitment in the Air National Guard.

[Loach]

Oh, and Loach: I got called up involuntarily, with less than 2 years left. My roommate right now is also IRR and his 8 years are already up. Everyone else who reported to Ft. Jackson at the same time as us (around 70 soldiers, though supposedly almost twice that many were called up and didn't show) were involuntary. We met up with some IRRs who got called up to Ft. Benning, and they said about the same number were called up there, all involuntary. So it isn't hard at all for me to believe that this guy is getting called up involuntarily with less than a year left. We're all getting ready to go back home this summer, so maybe the OP's friend is coming to replace us.

What MOS? Everyone I met that has been recalled have been in very specific MOS' that are in high demand.

And the cite I have seen say that they attempt to get people with two years or more left on their MSO. It is not a guarantee.

[GomiBoy]

For anyone who is wondering MOS stands for Military Occupational Specialty; it's a 5-digit code that defines your job and your rank / skill level at it in the military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Occupational_Specialty

Air Force MOS was slightly different, in that our rank was not part of it but skill level was. I was a 2W151 (Aircraft Armament Systems Journeyman technican) - the 5 is the skill level of 1 (basic), 3 (skilled), 5 (journeyman), or 7 (master)

Just pro-actively fightin' ignorance and all...

[Loach]

Compared to the noise, smoke, and dust of a couple dozen M1 Abrams and all the armored support vehicles, sure... we're talking scout for a larger armored unit, not true reconnaissance.

More likely his mission was avoiding contact with a larger opposing armored force while pinpointing their location and moving about the field of engagement outside of the line of sight of the larger armored unit.

Enlistment became an 8 year commitment before 1991 at least, because I had an 8 year (4 active 4 IRR) commitment. I used up my IRR commitment in the Air National Guard.

Pretty much. It depends on the type of unit the scout is in. Sometimes they are in a heavier force and there job is to destroy enemy scout elements and to locate and fix larger forces so follow on forces can continue the fight. Sometimes they are configured as a lighter force and use HMMVs. They also are trained in dismount operations. They are in Armored Cavalry Regiments (which contains scouts in Bradleys, tanks and helicopters) which can be used to guard, screen or cover a larger unit such as a Corps (either as a tripwire to the front or rear or as flank security). Along with that infantry and armor battalions have scout platoons which do the same job on a much smaller scale. So the job can cover quite a bit, from a large armored force to a small light force.

I joined in 1989 and the commitment was 8 years and had been for at least a few years. Since I'm at 19 years and counting I have passed that a few years back.

[GomiBoy]

Pretty much. It depends on the type of unit the scout is in. Sometimes they are in a heavier force and there job is to destroy enemy scout elements and to locate and fix larger forces so follow on forces can continue the fight. Sometimes they are configured as a lighter force and use HMMVs. They also are trained in dismount operations. They are in Armored Cavalry Regiments (which contains scouts in Bradleys, tanks and helicopters) which can be used to guard, screen or cover a larger unit such as a Corps (either as a tripwire to the front or rear or as flank security). Along with that infantry and armor battalions have scout platoons which do the same job on a much smaller scale. So the job can cover quite a bit, from a large armored force to a small light force.
Yeah, I kinda figured if he was a Bradley troop it was light armored force and recon screen, not true recon which would be HMMV / helo / etc...

I joined in 1989 and the commitment was 8 years and had been for at least a few years. Since I'm at 19 years and counting I have passed that a few years back.
Joined in 1991, so I was out and done in 1999. I called the IRR office in St Louis last year; I didn't give them anything but name and social security number and asked them if any orders outstanding because my understanding was that the AF was crying out for 2w151s like me at the time - they said "No orders outstanding, but if I wanted to join back up we can offer you a re-enlistment bonus of..."

I have never hung up a phone so fast in my life. It was great when I was 18, and I'm glad I did it. I just don't want to repeat the experience at 34 and have to operate out of Bagram or Diego Garcia or Guam, thanks very much.

[DrCube]

Am I reading this right? You're saying that you can be on the last day of your eight years and then get called back for 15 months for a total of 9 years 3 months? That's not much of an 8 year commitment if it can last over 9.
That's the beauty of stop-loss! If you are on deployment orders to go overseas, you're going. It doesn't matter if you're supposed to get out next week, as long as you are still assigned to the unit going overseas before your ETS (End of Time in Service) date. Just because it is possible doesn't mean it happens all the time, though. Of course I heard rumors of people getting stop-lossed on their last day, but I never knew them personally.

What MOS? Everyone I met that has been recalled have been in very specific MOS' that are in high demand.
I'm 94A, Tow/Javelin Misslie Systems Repairer. My job was overstrength when I got out, but apparently nobody is signing up for it anymore. But when I got called up to Ft. Jackson there were an awful lot of mechanics, MPs, small arms repairers, etc.... In other words regular, non-special MOSs they just need more of.

Here's how the drill sergeants who inprocessed us at Ft. Jackson (admittedly not exactly the horses mouth) explained it: When you enter the IRR, they put your name at the bottom of a big list. When a unit is getting deployed, the folks at HRC pull names off of the top of the list according to MOS to fill that unit's vacant slots. There is no consideration for how long you've been out, how long you have left, anything. If your name comes up, they cut your orders, even if it is days before your ETS.

I like to tell people about all the old bastards who were out of the army for 16 years getting called up. Big fat, 55-year-old PFCs. It reminded me of the War with the Eskimos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Before_the_War_with_the_Eskimos). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

[GomiBoy]

I like to tell people about all the old bastards who were out of the army for 16 years getting called up. Big fat, 55-year-old PFCs. It reminded me of the War with the Eskimos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Before_the_War_with_the_Eskimos). It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

How are "big fat 55 year olds" getting called up? If they're out for 16 years, I would think there is no way in hell they're still in the IRR.

[DrCube]

Exactly what I thought. There story was that when Clinton downsized the military in 1993, they had a choice: Get out with a lump sum of $20,000 or so (the numbers are approximate and from memory), or stay in the IRR for $7000 a year. I believe they had to stay in the IRR for twice as long as they were active. There was an old Staff Sergeant who was active for 12 years who had to stay in the IRR for 24 years.

The IRR is a legitimate reserve branch that just happens to do no training or drills. You can get promoted in the IRR, re-enlist in the IRR, and retire in the IRR. It's just that most people get out after their 8 year mandatory term, because there are really no benefits to being IRR, unless you've been getting paid $7000 a year for over a decade.

Oh, and I realized my "War with the Eskimos" link made no sense out of the allusion. In the story, one of the characters talks about how in the next war, the war with the Eskimos, instead of sending young able-bodied guys, they're going to send the old guys, sick guys, etc.... I thought it was an apt and humorous comparison.

[Raguleader]

For anyone who is wondering MOS stands for Military Occupational Specialty; it's a 5-digit code that defines your job and your rank / skill level at it in the military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Occupational_Specialty

Air Force MOS was slightly different, in that our rank was not part of it but skill level was. I was a 2W151 (Aircraft Armament Systems Journeyman technican) - the 5 is the skill level of 1 (basic), 3 (skilled), 5 (journeyman), or 7 (master)

Just pro-actively fightin' ignorance and all...

Also, the Air Force no longer has MOS's, we now have AFSC (Air Force Specialty Codes). As far as I can tell... they do pretty much the same thing as they did when they were MOS's, the Air Force just hates to use the same name as the Army for the same thing. (Which is why we have Military Training Instructors instead of Drill Sergeants, for example)

[Chessic Sense]

For the record, the army doesn't have a rank in their MOS either, just a skillset. Mine's 35F10, 10 being basic skills (e1-e4), 20 being E5/E6, 30 being E7/E8. That's not a rank though, it's just a correlation.

[Loach]

I'm 94A, Tow/Javelin Misslie Systems Repairer. My job was overstrength when I got out, but apparently nobody is signing up for it anymore. But when I got called up to Ft. Jackson there were an awful lot of mechanics, MPs, small arms repairers, etc.... In other words regular, non-special MOSs they just need more of.


I didn't say special, I said specific. As you know there is always a big demand for combat support and combat service support in wartime. During Desert Storm my unit did not go, we were in the half that stayed in Germany. But they took most of our mechanics and fuelers. And this conflict needs a lot more MPs than they ever thought they would need. Troops like infantry and cav scouts are needed in much fewer numbers.

My last deployment was noncombat. The only IRR guy I dealt with on a daily basis was a major who wasn't too happy about being called up but he said he couldn't complain because he had been taking the money for years. He knew it was a gamble and he rolled craps.

[GomiBoy]

Also, the Air Force no longer has MOS's, we now have AFSC (Air Force Specialty Codes). As far as I can tell... they do pretty much the same thing as they did when they were MOS's, the Air Force just hates to use the same name as the Army for the same thing. (Which is why we have Military Training Instructors instead of Drill Sergeants, for example)

Knew that, forgot it - thanks for pointing it out.

[fortytwo]

Am I reading this right? You're saying that you can be on the last day of your eight years and then get called back for 15 months for a total of 9 years 3 months? That's not much of an 8 year commitment if it can last over 9.

It's Catch 22.

[Loach]

It's Catch 22.

No it is not. Ever read the book?

[Johnny L.A.]

No it is not. Ever read the book?
While the specific comment is not correct, the situation quoted not having the required circular logic, I think the book is relevant to the current situation in our country. It's been years since I've read the book, so I hopped over to the Wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_22). The theme of the corruption of those in power is a little chilling.

(Sorry. That should be in Café Society or Great Debates.)