View Full Version : Door to Door Soliciting: Should it be made illegal?
Especially for private residences. I'm sick of the glut of solicitors that bother me throughout the year. From fly-by-night roofing companies, to the Latter Day Saints. If I need your *ahem* services, I'll come to you, not the other way around.
My residences, and most businesses, are considered private property. You don't see me going door-to-door, giving the hard sale to conduct my business. Can't we rule this practice as illegal already?
Is it illegal in any state*, or other countries?
I'd also be nice to hear from anyone who looks to this practice as necessary for their business or cause. If there's a reason why the majority of people should have to put up with this, I'd like to hear it. I consider it the ultimate, and most annoying form of spam. One that disturbs what I might be in the middle of, to a degree that interferes with the my quality of life the most. Especially when I'm napping.
*I'm from Michigan.
villa
04-09-2008, 12:58 PM
I don't have a problem with it as such - I get it so rarely - but I can see how it might annoy others. My solution would be to allow people to opt out, much like the Do Not Call list.
Sad to say, though I actually am a lawyer, I don't know whether the "No Solicitation" signs have any legal standing. I would think, especially for commercial solicitors, they could, and from a business point of view, calling on houses which display them wouldn't be a particularly good business model to follow.
That's sort of what prompted me to post this. I started working from home recently, and it's becoming ever so much more noticeable to me. Also, now they can see me sitting in my front room, working away, and DING-DONG. So, now I have to attach an ugly sign to my front door to hopefully ward them off. It'd be easier to just outlaw it. Who really wants this?
Door to door soliciting is just the banner ads of pre-internet times. Which is to say they're annoying and depending on where you live (surf) you either get almost none or a ridiculous amount of them.
I'm of two minds about them.
1) Being solicited is awkward, uncomfortable, inconvenient, etc. and since I want to be comfortable, people should not be allowed to disturb me in my home, therefore make it illegal! Unless it's those cute girls selling magazine subscriptions, they can come chat for a while...
2) The people doing the solicitation have the right to improve their lot in life and if they choose to do it by politely knocking on my door and politely going away when I say no, then they should be able to. If they're rude I should be able to beat them about the head and shoulders with a stick.
The reality is that door to door solicitaion works or people wouldn't do it, just like spam. Therefore an approach that is more practical that questionably enforceable laws should be applied. I suggest putting up a sign on your door that says "Warning: Ebola!"
-Eben (mostly serious)
3waygeek
04-09-2008, 01:13 PM
My city requires a permit for door-to-door solicitation -- there may be an exemption for religious/charitable orgs, as those seem to be the only such solicitors I see.
villa
04-09-2008, 01:15 PM
Well, the right to persuade is pretty important to grass roots democracy. An outright ban on people coming to your door would be damaging to that. Commercial solicitation is different obviously, as commercial speech is regulated differently than political speech (not that I am totally comfortable with the jurisprudence there). But banning it rather than an opt out system seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut to me.
Shayna
04-09-2008, 01:19 PM
I've given serious thought to running for City Council so I can propose a city ordinance that would make coming onto someone's personal property and leaving trash on their doors, fall under the heading of "trespassing" and "littering" and subject to fines.
I hate that crap. I come home daily to multiple business cards rubber-banded to my door knob, real estate and restaurant menus hanging from it, and fliers stuck in, on and around my door.
GET OFF OF MY LAWN!
ETA: I don't object if you come to my door in the hopes of finding me home and want to talk to me about something. Just don't leave your shit behind if you find I'm not there. Take your litter and come back another time or mail it to me.
Here's what I have on me door (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7604613@N04/2401611070/) now.
Anne Neville
04-09-2008, 01:24 PM
Can't we rule this practice as illegal already?
The Supreme Court says no. (http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16431)
from a business point of view, calling on houses which display them wouldn't be a particularly good business model to follow.
Actually, it might. A number of people put up signs like that (or sign up for do-not-call lists) because they know they will have a hard time saying no to a salesperson. The companies want to be able to market to those people, which is why they fight against things like do-not-call lists.
From fly-by-night roofing companies, to the Latter Day Saints.
Legally, those are likely to be treated quite differently (at least if you're in the US). The Supreme Court ruled in 1942 that laws can put limits on "commercial speech" that they couldn't put on religious or political speech or solicitation for charities due to the First Amendment. That's why the do-not-call list doesn't apply to callers for political parties.
Lord Ashtar
04-09-2008, 01:26 PM
So, now I have to attach an ugly sign to my front door to hopefully ward them off. It'd be easier to just outlaw it.
You can't seriously be suggesting that passing a law forbidding door-to-door soliciting is easier than putting a sign on your front door.
villa
04-09-2008, 01:30 PM
Actually, it might. A number of people put up signs like that (or sign up for do-not-call lists) because they know they will have a hard time saying no to a salesperson. The companies want to be able to market to those people, which is why they fight against things like do-not-call lists.
True. I guess my lawyerly belief in the goodness and rationality of human nature caught up with me again. :)
You can't seriously be suggesting that passing a law forbidding door-to-door soliciting is easier than putting a sign on your front door.
It's easier after the law is passed. Let's just put this issue in the "Greater Good" category.
If everybody that didn't want to be bothered at home by D2D bullshit put up a sign in their door, I think you'd see a lot of signage in your neighborhood. I'd rather not have that sign there. But, alas, there's no one to stop people from tromping all over my property, and ringing my doorbell, uninvited, bothering me, just so I have to tell them to bugger off. Most of the time, as in the incident last week, when I say I'm not interested, they come back with hard sell tactics. Even the religious.
To hell with that.
It's easier after the law is passed. Let's just put this issue in the "Greater Good" category.
If everybody that didn't want to be bothered at home by D2D bullshit put up a sign in their door, I think you'd see a lot of signage in your neighborhood. I'd rather not have that sign there. But, alas, there's no one to stop people from tromping all over my property, and ringing my doorbell, uninvited, bothering me, just so I have to tell them to bugger off. Most of the time, as in the incident last week, when I say I'm not interested, they come back with hard sell tactics. Even the religious.
To hell with that.
You've just given me a great product idea that probably already exists. Replace your doorbell buzzer with the sound of a shotgun cocking.
Love your sign, and seeing the way you've got all that glass I understand better why you get bothered regularly.
-Eben
Yes. LARGE front windows. And I'd like to keep them open what with all the fresh air and sunlight.
Stealth Potato
04-09-2008, 01:56 PM
Whoa. I'm as irritated by door-to-door solicitors as the next guy, but is anyone else disturbed by the fact that so many people, when faced with some perceived societal problem, immediately begin saying "there oughta be a law"?
We don't need to fill our law books with thousands upon thousands of regulations of every last behavior that might annoy someone. Not only do such laws frequently have unintended negative consequences, the very practice of whimsical legislating inflates the scope and expense of government and creates a tendency to reduce individual freedom. Before too long, you'll hardly be able to sneeze in public without becoming a criminal.
If you don't like people walking up to your door, put up a sign or install a fence. Sheesh.
I don't like laws as much as the next guy, but enough is enough. I did put up a sign, and I hope it cuts down on the BS, whether it's a law, or a sign, the practice itself is pretty pathetic, despicable and annoying. I don't see what inalienable right someone may have to think they need to come to my door, and beleaguer me with their crap.
So yes, a law would come in nicely here, if only to cut out the abusers, or as a deterrent to those on the fence about such tactics.
Shayna
04-09-2008, 02:10 PM
If you don't like people walking up to your door, put up a sign or install a fence. Sheesh. I don't have a front yard; I have stairs to my porch that lead right up from the public sidewalk, so a fence is not possible. How would you suggest I prevent people from traipsing onto my property and littering it up with their trash?
I used to keep a trash can right next to my front door with a sign on it that said "Please deposit all business cards, fliers, etc., here." Of course they ignored it and continued to trash up my front porch. I really and truly want that practice to be covered by the anti-littering laws.
The public has a right to demand people don't litter public areas, and fines are assessed when people are caught doing it. Why should my private property be any less protected from litter than public property?
Actually, it might. A number of people put up signs like that (or sign up for do-not-call lists) because they know they will have a hard time saying no to a salesperson. The companies want to be able to market to those people, which is why they fight against things like do-not-call lists..
This is exactly why it needs to be stopped. These tactics prey on the weak or ignorant. And they're wrong too. If someone chooses to ignore my sign, and come at me harder thinking I'm going to have a hard time saying "No.", they're in for an eye-opener.
Bridget Burke
04-09-2008, 02:40 PM
I keep my screen door locked. So, when somebody rings, I'm able to check them out before engaging in conversation.
Simply telling them I'm busy, through the door, is quite easy.
I keep my screen door locked. So, when somebody rings, I'm able to check them out before engaging in conversation.
Simply telling them I'm busy, through the door, is quite easy.
Yes, I agree that works some of the time. Unless it's 20ºF out, or you're on the couch napping, or perhaps walking around in your underwear (Hey! It's my house, I can do what I want). Just, leave me alone!
Gala Matrix Fire
04-09-2008, 03:06 PM
This is exactly why it needs to be stopped. These tactics prey on the weak or ignorant. And they're wrong too. If someone chooses to ignore my sign, and come at me harder thinking I'm going to have a hard time saying "No.", they're in for an eye-opener.
Exactly.
And while we're at it, why does the purveyor of the local newspaper get to toss unsolicited trash on my lawn every morning?
I have a "No solicitors" sign. It's not ugly; I bought it on eBay from someone who paints pretty ones in whatever color you want. But it doesn't stop everybody. That means my doorbell rings, my cats go crazy, my much-needed nap is ruined, my pot boils over, my heating or air conditioning kicks on if I open the door, etc. etc.
I hate those @#$%ers.
Anne Neville
04-09-2008, 03:06 PM
This is exactly why it needs to be stopped. These tactics prey on the weak or ignorant.
Absolutely. I'm not saying it's OK for them to do that- I think deliberately exploiting the weak and ignorant is a very evil thing to do- not quite up there with murder and torture, but not that far behind them, either. But making sure you have access to the people who are likely to buy your services (whether those are people who actually want the product or service, or those who have trouble saying no to salespeople) is just good business sense. There are many instances where "the best thing for the bottom line" and "the right thing to do" are in conflict, and this is one of them.
And they're wrong too.
They're not right in every case, and they know that. But they know that some people do put up no-soliciting signs or sign up for do-not-call lists to protect someone who has trouble saying no to salespeople.
perhaps walking around in your underwear
I don't know what you look like in your underwear, but if you look like I do in mine, that might scare 'em off for good...
I don't know what you look like in your underwear, but if you look like I do in mine, that might scare 'em off for good...
Yes, that's the "eye-opener" I was talking about previously.
...But making sure you have access to the people who are likely to buy your services (whether those are people who actually want the product or service, or those who have trouble saying no to salespeople) is just good business sense. There are many instances where "the best thing for the bottom line" and "the right thing to do" are in conflict, and this is one of them..
I know you're most likely just playing devil's advocate, but really, I don't see (nor care) how or why this should be my problem. Myriad other businesses seem to fare just fine without stooping down to door-to-door soliciting. In the long run, it usually pans out that the right thing to do is the best thing for the bottom line.
Throw up a billboard, advertise on local stations... I don't care how you do it, but don't come to my house as a living advertisement.
Imagine if this kind of marketing were the common technique, even amongst major franchise businesses. Oh, the horror.
Shayna
04-09-2008, 06:10 PM
Imagine if this kind of marketing were the common technique, even amongst major franchise businesses. Oh, the horror.It actually used to be! You must not be old enough to remember the Fuller Brush Man or the Encyclopedia Britannica. ;)
You might like some (or all) of these (http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/d/door-to-door_salesman.asp), especially the last one. :D
Lynn Bodoni
04-09-2008, 07:49 PM
Whoa. I'm as irritated by door-to-door solicitors as the next guy, but is anyone else disturbed by the fact that so many people, when faced with some perceived societal problem, immediately begin saying "there oughta be a law"?
We don't need to fill our law books with thousands upon thousands of regulations of every last behavior that might annoy someone. Not only do such laws frequently have unintended negative consequences, the very practice of whimsical legislating inflates the scope and expense of government and creates a tendency to reduce individual freedom. Before too long, you'll hardly be able to sneeze in public without becoming a criminal.
If you don't like people walking up to your door, put up a sign or install a fence. Sheesh. I don't think that businesses have a right to annoy me in hopes of making a sale. This includes, but is not limited to, telemarketing and door to door sales. I don't think that we need to have thousands of regulations, simply one law that states that a business or charity or nonprofit organization may not intrude upon an ordinary person's activities, whether at work, at home, or anywhere else. This would also include spam, come to think of it.
If a business can't make a profit without going door to door, telemarketing, or spamming, then it deserves to go under.
Starving Artist
04-09-2008, 07:50 PM
The public has a right to demand people don't litter public areas, and fines are assessed when people are caught doing it. Why should my private property be any less protected from litter than public property?My guess would be it's because the things left at your door aren't technically litter. They are messages (so to speak) which have specifically been left for you to find and read - as opposed to miscellaneous detritus left scattered on the ground.
To you there may not be much difference, but the courts apparently feel differently. I seem to recall reading once that the U.S. Supreme Court has held that solicitors must be allowed to approach your door in order to leave advertising and/or solicit your business, and that doing so does not constitute trespassing. I have no cite for this though, it's just something I seem to recall having read at one time.
lobotomyboy63
04-09-2008, 07:58 PM
For all I know, door-to-door salesmen are casing the house.
I don't appreciate, either, when I leave Wally or the supermarket and find flyers on my windshield. It would be a great front for those who want to see if I have any valuables on my front seat, if the doors are unlocked, etc. But supposing they're legit, if they scratch my paint as they lean over or break my windshield wiper putting the paper under it, then what?
pingnak
04-09-2008, 08:37 PM
It should be legal to sell door to door AND it should be open-season on salesmen and solicitors of all kinds.
Problem solved!
When the Jehova's Witlesses come around at 6:00am on a Saturday and I'm hung over, it should be A-OK for me to kill them on the spot. Sure, some of them take their precious little kids with them to mellow out the response to them, but that's just Darwin talking.
"Hello, have you accepted Je-..."
BLAM! BLAM!
"Go tell him to F*** HIMSELF!"
guizot
04-09-2008, 09:08 PM
I've given serious thought to running for City Council so I can propose a city ordinance that would make coming onto someone's personal property and leaving trash on their doors, fall under the heading of "trespassing" and "littering" and subject to fines.Shayna, why don't you move up here to L.A. and run for our City Council? We really could use someone like you here.
That being said, I think it's a fine line between "commercial trash" and "free speech." Personally, I have no problem with someone coming to my door and placing some printed material on the door nob. If it's just commercial trash, I throw it away. That's not a big price to pay, because maybe a neighbor of mine has something really important to communicate, and can do so only by means of door-to-door fliers. It takes about 15 seconds out of my life daily to throw away unwanted solicitations. I think I can afford that in order to leave open the window for serious political discourse.
rock party
04-09-2008, 09:10 PM
I seem to a remember reading about a home burglery racket that did the flier thing just for scoping things out.
I keep the screendoor locked and answer the door with my cellphone in my hand. If it's a soliciter or a home invasion (which have been increasing in my neighboorhood lately) ..either way I'm covered.
Frankly, I just don't like strangers on my front porch, and so close to my home that they can see into my house, see my computer equipment in my front room, and even see me and my family going about our lives. They have no business (but their own), are not welcome, and honestly make me feel uncomfortable. I'd say someone rings my doorbell about 3 times a month, and some people leave clutter about 8 to 10 times a month. The point about casing, is a serious threat, especially in my position, and this practice being legal is just too easy to abuse. If I knew there was a law, then I could satisfy my suspicion as to whether they are actually trying to scope out my property or not.
And I agree with Lynn, if you can't keep a business afloat without having to intrude into people's private spaces, then you and your company does not deserve to stand.
Crocodiles And Boulevards
04-10-2008, 03:18 AM
Put up a low to medium fence and lock the gate. Put up a sign that says Trespassers WILL Be Shot! Or, make it a metal fence and put up a sign that says 10,000 Volts.
You forgot the moat, stocked with -- well -- crocodiles.
Lust4Life
04-10-2008, 06:54 AM
Its always struck me that people looking to find empty premises during the day for reasons of their own have a great cover story if it turns out that there IS someone in after all if they say that they are trying to sell you double glazing or whatever.
Also it pees me off if I drag myself out of the bath,or am asleep,or watching a favourite prog and its someone I dont know trying to sell me something I dont want at MY front door ..................and then they leave the gate ajar.
DrCube
04-10-2008, 07:54 AM
Don't answer the fucking door!
Oh yeah, but littering my lawn, porch, windshield, whatever, should all be outlawed and punished with castration and/or mastectomy.
But if people want to come knock on my door a few times while I ignore them (or answer the door naked, or any of the myriad techniques people have come up with over the years to discourage solicitors), more power to them, I suppose.
Anne Neville
04-10-2008, 08:52 AM
Given the Supreme Court decision, the best we could probably do is outlaw door-to-door salespeople, but not political canvassing or missionaries.
Its always struck me that people looking to find empty premises during the day for reasons of their own have a great cover story if it turns out that there IS someone in after all if they say that they are trying to sell you double glazing or whatever.
The Supreme Court actually considered this argument. They decided that requiring a permit for door-to-door solicitation was unlikely to deter criminals who want to do this.
The Court has also said that people have the right to anonymously distribute political literature, so it might be hard to outlaw their leaving unsolicited literature by your door.
I know you're most likely just playing devil's advocate, but really, I don't see (nor care) how or why this should be my problem.
It's not your problem. It is, however, the lawmakers' problem. The owners and employees of the companies who do this (who would presumably like to keep their jobs) get to vote, same as you. They're allowed to write to their senator or congressperson and tell them how their company brings jobs to the area and all that. They make campaign contributions.
I'd love to see door-to-door sales, telemarketing, and spam, whether for sales, charity, religion, politics, or whatever, outlawed. I just don't think it will happen.
You forgot the moat, stocked with -- well -- crocodiles.
Saltwater crocodiles. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltwater_Crocodile) With laser beams on their heads.
FriarTed
04-10-2008, 08:57 AM
Saltwater crocodiles. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltwater_Crocodile) With laser beams on their heads.
*pinky to corner of mouth* Frickin' laser beams!
I'm apparently not in an area where this is much of a problem, and I'm rather partial to local door-to-door causes, whether it be school fundraisers, churches, etc. so I have a totally different perspective.
Mr. Moto
04-10-2008, 09:21 AM
Just buy a "gimp mask" and answer the door in it. No other clothing modification should be required.
FoieGrasIsEvil
04-10-2008, 09:34 AM
*pinky to corner of mouth* Frickin' laser beams!
I'm apparently not in an area where this is much of a problem, and I'm rather partial to local door-to-door causes, whether it be school fundraisers, churches, etc. so I have a totally different perspective.
A couple cute kids knocking on your door to raise money for a trip to somewhere or for band equipment is one thing; a pushy asshole trying to sell you a $1200 Kirby vacuum cleaner is another.
Telemark
04-10-2008, 09:44 AM
A couple cute kids knocking on your door to raise money for a trip to somewhere or for band equipment is one thing; a pushy asshole trying to sell you a $1200 Kirby vacuum cleaner is another.
Frankly, it's just as easy to say "no" to either one. Do you really need a law for that?
villa
04-10-2008, 09:58 AM
Personally, I find it harder to say no to the fund raisers. I seem to manage it though in the end.
And if she is reading this - the incredibly cute girl who did fund raising for the DNC door to door last week in Alexandria. Come back! I will give you lots of money!
Mr. Moto
04-10-2008, 10:02 AM
A couple cute kids knocking on your door to raise money for a trip to somewhere or for band equipment is one thing; a pushy asshole trying to sell you a $1200 Kirby vacuum cleaner is another.
But the law cannot discriminate between them.
villa
04-10-2008, 10:16 AM
Well, the law manages to discriminate pretty well between charitable/political and commercial phone solicitations.
FoieGrasIsEvil
04-10-2008, 10:25 AM
Frankly, it's just as easy to say "no" to either one. Do you really need a law for that?
While I agree with villa that it's hard (for me) to say no to little kids with a legitimate cause for fundraising (I have a giving nature, which is likely why I'll never be monetarily wealthy), I am not in favor of a law prohibiting solicitation, when you can put up a sign on your property or ultimately, just say "no".
I think that if you cannot say no to someone trying to sell you something that you don't want or need, then it's your problem, not the legal system's.
But I also agree with the OP that it is indeed annoying. Having a large, muscular dog that I give the appearance of barely being able to control helps!
If anything, the only thing I would want outlawed in all this would be religious solicitations. If we cannot have prayer in schools, ten commandments displayed at public buildings, why then are religious kooks (particularly magical underwear-wearing Mormons) allowed to knock and my door and try to get me and my money to join their 'effing church?
It's not like they're trying to sell me a product or a service that I can actually use.
Valgard
04-10-2008, 10:42 AM
If anything, the only thing I would want outlawed in all this would be religious solicitations. If we cannot have prayer in schools, ten commandments displayed at public buildings, why then are religious kooks (particularly magical underwear-wearing Mormons) allowed to knock and my door and try to get me and my money to join their 'effing church?
It's not like they're trying to sell me a product or a service that I can actually use.
Because those are two different things. In the former you're talking about the government establishing a favored religion which is specifically unconstitutional, in the latter you're talking about a private citizen asking to discuss his philosophy with you which isn't unconstitutional by a long shot.
I don't like D2D intrusions either, so I've got a "No Solicitors" sign. If I open the door and somebody is trying to pitch something I just point to the sign, say "I'm sorry, no solicitors" and shut the door.
The latest is that various people respond that what they are doing "isn't soliciting". I tell them "Yes it is" and continue shutting the door.
Don't get a lot of pitches at the door. I don't like the flyers but they just go into the recycle bin. What I hate are the plastic bags with a flyer in them and a handful of gravel, pitched onto my driveway out of a vehicle going down the street. Lazy, annoying and environmentally unfriendly. Way to get my business.
FoieGrasIsEvil
04-10-2008, 11:21 AM
Because those are two different things. In the former you're talking about the government establishing a favored religion which is specifically unconstitutional, in the latter you're talking about a private citizen asking to discuss his philosophy with you which isn't unconstitutional by a long shot.
I don't like D2D intrusions either, so I've got a "No Solicitors" sign. If I open the door and somebody is trying to pitch something I just point to the sign, say "I'm sorry, no solicitors" and shut the door.
The latest is that various people respond that what they are doing "isn't soliciting". I tell them "Yes it is" and continue shutting the door.
Don't get a lot of pitches at the door. I don't like the flyers but they just go into the recycle bin. What I hate are the plastic bags with a flyer in them and a handful of gravel, pitched onto my driveway out of a vehicle going down the street. Lazy, annoying and environmentally unfriendly. Way to get my business.
While I agree that they are in fact different, is the latter example really just a private citizen wanting to "discuss his philosophy", though? Or is it more like a representative of a religious organization, told by said organization to go out and harvest some souls?
Anne Neville
04-10-2008, 11:31 AM
If anything, the only thing I would want outlawed in all this would be religious solicitations. If we cannot have prayer in schools, ten commandments displayed at public buildings, why then are religious kooks (particularly magical underwear-wearing Mormons) allowed to knock and my door and try to get me and my money to join their 'effing church?
Because the Mormons aren't using a government-owned school or public building to do what they do, nor are they using the authority of government-paid teachers or other public employees to add to the impact of their message.
Or is it more like a representative of a religious organization, told by said organization to go out and harvest some souls?
They're allowed to do that, just like religious organizations are allowed to tell their followers to do other things, like not eat pork.
Speaking of not eating pork, I've found that telling religious proselytizers that you're Jewish usually gets them to go away.
Lynn Bodoni
04-10-2008, 11:33 AM
Frankly, it's just as easy to say "no" to either one. Do you really need a law for that? I need a law that prohibits them from waking me from my nap, or interrupting my game, or interrupts my cooking. I usually sleep in two or three naps in the daytime. I have a hard time getting to sleep and staying asleep. Signs that say "No solicitors" or "Day sleeper" don't deter people, especially the missionaries, who apparently feel that I am just aching to discuss their god with them.
Delivery people can wake me up, and I'm not too upset about it, because I do want to receive the package. This is the only reason I haven't installed the moat.
BrainGlutton
04-10-2008, 11:34 AM
Door to Door Soliciting: Should it be made illegal?
I'm sure I'm not the only one to whom the thread title evoked the following image:
[ding-dong]
"Prostitute!"
That kind should be legal, at any rate! ;)
Frankly, it's just as easy to say "no" to either one. Do you really need a law for that?
Apparently, you've never met the jack-booted Kirby (http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/031005/sales.pitch.html) salesman. I think they are now wearing lasers on their heads.
Duckster
04-10-2008, 11:40 AM
I fail to understand why a simple no solicitors sign isn't sufficient, backed up by a "no thank you" response if needed. The hostility of some posts here is more indicative the real problem exists inside the house and not outside.
Duckster: See Lynn's previous post. A sign doesn't always work, either. Plus, it's unsightly.
FoieGrasIsEvil
04-10-2008, 11:55 AM
Apparently, you've never met the jack-booted Kirby (http://www.mountvernonnews.com/local/031005/sales.pitch.html) salesman. I think they are now wearing lasers on their heads.
The reason I even threw the Kirby reference out there in my previous post was because, yep, I now own one. Of course, my wife bought it without my permission or knowledge, and the sales experience she had was quite pleasant.
Of course, she was a willing participant and an easy mark, so there was likely no need to put on the strong arm tactics on her.
And in Kirby's defense, the thing is an amazing vacuum cleaner. It's just not worth what they sell it for.
/hijack
Martin Hyde
04-10-2008, 11:56 AM
I have no problem at all with door to door soliciting, aside from a few school fund raisers, I've never given money to any D2D solicitor. However, one of the magazine-sales scams (mostly a scam against the D2D solicitors themselves, because the young adults in these systems are paid very far below minimum wage, are promised rewards and benefits they will never receive and et cetera) did result in an incident that almost resulted in a dead or seriously wounded sales person.
This early 20s kid was at my door one day, I open it up to ask him what he needs. I'm never one to lock my screen door because I'm not particularly worried about telling someone to leave/I don't want your product, so I don't feel I need the screen door as a "guard" against them talking their way into my house.
Well, this guy actually just stepped into my home after I told him I wasn't interested in a magazine subscription. He stepped in and started to do a harder sell--I don't necessarily fault the kid, I imagine this is what they were trained to do and he didn't realize that what he was doing was illegally entering my property and could result in harm to himself. I immediately told him, "You've just entered my home without my permission, if you don't leave and get off of my property immediately there will be serious consequences." Not only did he leave, but I walked with him to the edge of my property line and told him if he set foot on my property again I'd call the police and/or assume he was a criminal and respond accordingly.
I realized what a relatively safe (in my head at least) place I lived in when one of the magazine people came to my door while I was playing games in my living room one day. I didn't know who it was, but when I heard a knock on my door I said "Come in." Then I heard this timid voice say, "Um, you don't know me." I replied, "That's okay, come in anyway." I'm sure most of the world that wouldn't occur to people to invite a stranger into their home without at least looking them over.
-Eben
My wife once let a Kirby salesman in our home, and it almost got ugly. He was amazingly pushy, and used a lot of painfully obvious hard sell tactics. Took an hour and a half to get him out. At one point, he "called" his "boss" to see if he could give me a discount on a $1400 vacuum cleaner, after I told him "No, Thank You." more than a dozen times. He had this one-sided conversation with a dial tone, by pretending his boss was on the other end. How dumb do I look? I remember him laughing from a "remark" his "boss" made, then repeated it, bacause it was just too funny! "WHAT?! Even a paperboy could afford THAT?!? Hahahaahahhahahahh!" :rolleyes:
Anyway, short of getting Tangina (http://www.dvdizzy.com/images/m-p/poltergeist-04.jpg) over here, he was about as hard to rid from my house as a poltergeist.
Duckster
04-10-2008, 12:11 PM
Duckster: See Lynn's previous post. A sign doesn't always work, either. Plus, it's unsightly.
Oh, I don't know. We've had one for years that seems to work 99.99 percent of the time:
No Solicitors.
No Sales People.
No Religions.
Please respect our privacy, especially if you want to wake up tomorrow to see the Sun rise again.
Telemark
04-10-2008, 12:38 PM
Took an hour and a half to get him out.
After the first "please leave" you simply call the police. They'll leave.
Annie-Xmas
04-10-2008, 02:22 PM
A friend of mine is a devout Orthodoz Jew with a mezuzah on his door. And the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons still ring his doorbell.
I tell the Jehovah's Witnesses that I don't like their stand on letting people die rather than having a blood transfusion, and I tell the Mormons I will turn Mormon when they get their first female President, but I'll be damned if I'll join any organization that practices discrimination against women.
mks57
04-10-2008, 03:33 PM
Is there a way to post your land/residence so that any uninvited guests are automatically guilty of criminal trespass? As I understand it, the police normally have to issue a warning before it becomes a criminal matter.
Anne Neville
04-10-2008, 03:51 PM
A friend of mine is a devout Orthodoz Jew with a mezuzah on his door. And the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons still ring his doorbell.
You have to tell them. Most non-Jews wouldn't know what a mezuzza was if they saw one.
I tell the Jehovah's Witnesses that I don't like their stand on letting people die rather than having a blood transfusion, and I tell the Mormons I will turn Mormon when they get their first female President, but I'll be damned if I'll join any organization that practices discrimination against women.
Does that get them to go away? I refuse to get involved in any kind of debate with them, because I'm afraid it might just encourage them. I'd be shocked if those weren't things they hear all the time, and have a planned response to.
Frankly, it's just as easy to say "no" to either one. Do you really need a law for that?
Maybe for you, but not for everybody. Not everybody finds it easy to say no to a salesperson or throw someone out of their house.
mks57
04-10-2008, 03:59 PM
You have to tell them. Most non-Jews wouldn't know what a mezuzza was if they saw one.
Besides, many evangelists seem to think they get bonus points for converting a Jew to Christianity.
BlinkingDuck
04-10-2008, 04:06 PM
I always feel sorry for the real small businessperson trying to let people know he is in business. He's small and cannot afford commercials and the like.
If he does flyers he gets yelled at for littering. D2D is obnoxious. He doesn't believe for an instance that when you need his services that you will go to him because you don't know about him...
It has to be tough.
I always feel sorry for the real small businessperson trying to let people know he is in business. He's small and cannot afford commercials and the like.
If he does flyers he gets yelled at for littering. D2D is obnoxious. He doesn't believe for an instance that when you need his services that you will go to him because you don't know about him...
It has to be tough.
You point out one pretty obvious truth: whatever restrictions are placed on the general populace hurts small business more than big business. Mostly because big business has the resources to find loopholes I think.
-Eben
Telemark
04-10-2008, 05:06 PM
Maybe for you, but not for everybody. Not everybody finds it easy to say no to a salesperson or throw someone out of their house.
I find it hard to not purchase chocolate chip cookies in the store when I see them, but I don't want a law passed to prevent them from being displayed.
There are laws in place to make sure a D2D salesperson never makes it inside your house, and ones to make them leave if you want them to go.
Posting "No Solicitations" sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. That's a pain, I agree. The last place I worked had a sign out front and it was regularly ignored. When the receptionist wasn't there I would respond to them (my office was near the door). I used to go outside, look at the sign, and then say "Oh, I just assumed our 'No Solicitation' sign must have fallen off. I can't imagine how you missed that." And then I'd just stare at them until they left. I'd be pissed if I got woken up from a nap, but I'm not sure I have a solution to that problem. Outlawing D2D seems like an extreme overreaction however.
Maastricht
04-11-2008, 06:01 AM
I always feel sorry for the real small businessperson trying to let people know he is in business. He's small and cannot afford commercials and the like.
If he does flyers he gets yelled at for littering. D2D is obnoxious. He doesn't believe for an instance that when you need his services that you will go to him because you don't know about him...
It has to be tough.That used to be the case, perhaps, but not anymore. If the business caters to the general public, all he needs to do is sign up for the yellow pages online, open a website, and he can be found by everyone who needs his services. And if he caters to other businesses, he should just contact them directly with tailored business proposals. Then, at least the ones answering his calls will be paid to do so.
I really think DtD solicitors should pay more attention to opt-out signs, and that is where any rules or regulations should aim for. Day time sleepers deserve not having to shut off their door bell.
Mellivora capensis
04-11-2008, 06:40 AM
My solution? Invite Master Wang Ka over for an all night board game.
Annie-Xmas
04-11-2008, 07:30 AM
Talking with solicitors in a nice calm voice and using facts is the best way I know of getting rid of them. You cannot argue with facts:
Me: So your church discriminates against women.
LDS: Oh, no. We don't believe in discrimination against anyone.
Me: So you treat the women just like the men.
LDS: Of course!
Me: So a woman could head your church.
LDS: Well, no. (Long Pause). But that's not discrimination.
Me: Look, it is discrimination. You are discriminating against women. You can say you agree with it, but call it what it is.
Me: So you are anti-abortion.
Anti-Abortionists: I'm pro-life
Me: So you are anti-abortion.
AA: Well, I'm pro-life.
Me: So can you tell me you are anti-abortion.
AA: I believe in the sanctity of life.
Me: Which makes you anti-abortion.
AA (reluctantly): Wellllll, if you want to say that.
Me: So you agree that gay adoption is better than abortion.
AA: No, I believe a child needs a mother and a father.
Me: So what would you have done with the children born to the pregnant 9/11 widows. Make these women get married or take their babies away?
AA: Definitely not!
Me: But you just said children need a mother and a father.
Mangetout
04-11-2008, 07:46 AM
I dislike the practice generally - although not violently enough to put up a sign. I can think of one example that I found not at all objectionable:
-a guy called at the door and introduced himself as a milkman intending to start a delivery round in our area. I suppose he could have just done a leaflet drop, but I don't think that would have been nearly so effective for him, and in this case - with a personal service so traditionally established as to be an institution, I don't begrudge him this mode of solicitation at all.
As a rule, I don't buy anything - goods or services - from unexpected callers. I made one exception for the milkman.
My solution? Invite Master Wang Ka over for an all night board game.
You know, the thought has crossed my mind to set up an umbrella holder filled with katana blades, right next to the front door.
Darryl Lict
04-12-2008, 04:16 PM
I get Jehovah's witnesses, magazine sales kids and black kids from L.A. selling candy at ridiculously inflated prices. The latter two are obviously scams to me, and I figure they are casing the joint to rip me off. I suspect my city actually prosecutes these people for any illegal activities as they are happening with decreasing frequency. I try to engage the JW's to hone my pro-evolution debating skills. One day, I'll convert a JW to science and secular humanism!
I'm also the neighborhood weirdo, so unfortunately, kids with legitimate candy selling fundraisers never come by. I always buy from them.
MissGypsy
04-13-2008, 11:30 PM
I need a law that prohibits them from waking me from my nap, or interrupting my game, or interrupts my cooking. I usually sleep in two or three naps in the daytime. I have a hard time getting to sleep and staying asleep. Signs that say "No solicitors" or "Day sleeper" don't deter people, especially the missionaries, who apparently feel that I am just aching to discuss their god with them.
Delivery people can wake me up, and I'm not too upset about it, because I do want to receive the package. This is the only reason I haven't installed the moat.
I've posted signs that say "Baby sleeping," because I've finally gotten a sick or fussy kid down for a nap, and somebody comes knocking on the door and wakes him up. I've thought about telling the salespeople/missionaries to come right in, and sit there and rock that baby back to sleep for the next two hours, and feed, burp, and change him too. That would teach 'em.
The moat isn't a bad idea, if I could figure how to work it into the landscaping...
Lynn Bodoni
04-14-2008, 12:05 AM
I don't know why, but most of the callers open my screen door when they're waiting for me. My ever curious cats are WAITING for this moment, and even though I might not see them at first, I do see a fuzzy butt zooming out the door. One salesman did help me retrieve the escaped cat. The others all decided that they'd rather be anywhere else, as long as it's out of my range, because I'm generally furious.
myskepticsight
04-14-2008, 10:09 AM
I dunno, there's a no-call list to stop* phone solicitation, and I find the D2D people to be more annoying. People calling don't know I am home, they can't see me and I can just hang up on them right away. But to see who is at the door I have to walk up to the window by the door down the foyer, then feel kinda creeped out that they know I am home but am refusing to answer. Luckily we don't get much D2D stuff. And at our house we usually know when visitors are coming beforehand so we will know who is ringing the bell. We've never had a Jehovah's Witness or anything that could possibly be entertaining though either.
*it's pretty much worked for us but I don't know about everyone
Purgatory Creek
04-14-2008, 11:09 AM
I'm not sure why this is such a problem for so many people. My husband and I do not answer the door. Period. We don't even have a doorbell. There is no moral or legal obligation for us to answer the door or the telephone, so we don't do so. Why is that so hard? (Not snarking. I honestly do not understand why people have such a hard time with this.)
We have an answering machine, so if someone is ill or a great crisis occurs, we can be informed, and that's all we should be expected to do to accommodate the needs of others, strangers and family alike. (Hah, you think it's hard to convince salespeople to go away? Try explaining to our elderly mothers that they cannot call us in the middle of the day because it is the middle of the night for us.)
cmyk, just sit in your window (in your underwear, if need be) and continue what you're doing. Eventually they'll get tired of watching you scratch yourself and go away.
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