Billy Joel's "Always a Woman"???

[Jinx]

This song has always bugged me! While this song sounds so beautiful, what the heck is Billy Joel saying? I can only conclude he's gracefully saying she's really a bitch, right? What is your take on this song? - Jinx :confused:

[lobotomyboy63]

A friend in college used to sing it, "She's always inhuman to me."

Misogyny aside, I think he's saying they're enigmatic, e.g. "She's frequently kind and she's suddenly cruel." Black and white make a lot of grey...they're not simple creatures.

[CalMeacham]

I wanna know what "She can't be convicted -- she's earned her degree" means.


What degree did she get that gives her a free pass out of prison? I've got a stack of degrees, but none of them are going to keep me out of the hoosegow.

[Khadaji]

Agreed that it is a beautiful song and that she sounds like a bitch.

But I think Billy might have been singing about unconditional love. Perhaps he was saying that no matter what, he loves her.

[Baldwin]

Thinking through the lyrics. . . . that's not complex, that's bipolar. Chick's gonna bake forty dozen cookies one day, then slash all your shirts with a straight razor the next.

[Paul in Qatar]

Oh! I know her!

[robardin]

I wanna know what "She can't be convicted -- she's earned her degree" means.
"Convicted" in the sense of "convinced, swayed by argument", which is what it originally meant. Webster's Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary) gives the definition "to convince of error or sinfulness" just ahead of "to find a defendant guilty". "Conviction" can also mean a standing belief that has not been swayed by argument ("I stand on my convictions").

To find someone guilty of a crime is called "conviction" because of our trial system of law based on swaying a jury, and the fact that a perfectly good, similar and more commonly used verb exists in "convince". The standard phrase "the jury is convicted of the defendant's guilt" turned into an active verb "to convict" meaning "to find guilty of a crime", and back into a passive form "he was convicted" and even "he's a convict" to refer to a criminal.

And "earned her degree" is colloquial for "she's confident in her own knowledge".

Yeah, it's an awkward lyric. I'm guessing he felt "convicted" fit the rhythm of the song better than "convinced".

[Zebra]

I always thought it was about a tranvestite.

[Walloon]

I see it as Joel wanting to write a song like Dylan's Just Like a Woman (http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/justlike.html).

[CalMeacham]

"Convicted" in the sense of "convinced, swayed by argument", which is what it originally meant. Webster's Dictionary gives the definition "to convince of error or sinfulness" just ahead of "to find a defendant guilty". "Conviction" can also mean a standing belief that has not been swayed by argument ("I stand on my convictions").

To find someone guilty of a crime is called "conviction" because of our trial system of law based on swaying a jury, and the fact that a perfectly good, similar and more commonly used verb exists in "convince". The standard phrase "the jury is convicted of the defendant's guilt" turned into an active verb "to convict" meaning "to find guilty of a crime", and back into a passive form "he was convicted" and even "he's a convict" to refer to a criminal.

And "earned her degree" is colloquial for "she's confident in her own knowledge".

Yeah, it's an awkward lyric. I'm guessing he felt "convicted" fit the rhythm of the song better than "convinced".


I never would have guessed this. I've never heard or read anyone using "convicted" as a synonym for "convinced", and I've never heard "she's earned her degree" as a colloquialism for anything.

[Genghis Bob]

I never would have guessed this. I've never heard or read anyone using "convicted" as a synonym for "convinced", and I've never heard "she's earned her degree" as a colloquialism for anything.

You guys are working too hard on this one. Billy Joel, god love 'im, is the king of the cheap rhyme. He was running out of stanza, and needed another rhyme for "always a woman to me".

[susan]

It must be said that many of his songs are confusing, internally contradictory, and misogynistic. Pretty, though.

[ZipperJJ]

I always thought this was his version of "Lady Is A Tramp".

[The Punkyova]

I always thought it was "She's earned her reprieve."

[Caricci]

Oh, yeah, Billy Joel is not such a great lyricist. Like Stevie Nicks, his stuff sounds all profound and shit, but means NOTHING. I mean, what about these lyrics:

They say that these are not the best of times
But they're the only time I've ever known
And I believe there is a time for meditation
In cathedrals of your own
Now I've seen that sad surrender in my lover's eyes
And I can only stand apart and sympathize
For we are always what our situations hand us
It's either sadness or euphoria


Oooh. Wow, man!

Oh, wait, that doesn't mean anything.

[Monstera deliciosa]

As I heard it, the song is about his first wife, who was his manager at the time. The point was that she was ruthless, on Joel's behalf, with the people with whom he had to do business, (the "You" constantly referenced in the lyrics) but she was "always a woman," that is, loving, to him (the "Me" in the lyrics.)

[CalMeacham]

I always thought it was "She's earned her reprieve."


No, it's "degree". It's clear enough on the recording, or you can see it on lyric sites:

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/She's-Always-A-Woman-lyrics-Billy-Joel/98F5BA02E8B085A548256870001B6C6D




By the way, it occurs to me that "She can't be convinced, she's confident of her own knowledge" doesn't maske much sense, unless you're trying to make her believe something different.

[JSexton]

I always heard it as "decree", not "degree". Like a decree of innocence.

[carnivorousplant]

The point was that she was ruthless, on Joel's behalf, with the people with whom he had to do business, (the "You" constantly referenced in the lyrics) but she was "always a woman," that is, loving, to him (the "Me" in the lyrics.)
Thanks Pal, why don't you ruin Sgt. Pepper for us next? :rolleyes:



So what's the deal on "lay traps for troubadors who never reach Bombay?"

[descamisado]

I always heard it as "decree", not "degree". Like a decree of innocence.Although I heard "degree," changing it to decree in my head, as in "To ordain, establish, or decide by decree (rather than conviction by peers, etc.)," -- again, a decree of innonence -- helps me make more sense of it too.

[Monstera deliciosa]

Thanks Pal, why don't you ruin Sgt. Pepper for us next? :rolleyes:



So what's the deal on "lay traps for troubadors who never reach Bombay?"

I suppose I'm humor-impaired, because I don't get the rolleyes. I'm not sure what my answer spoiled for you, but I apologize. I thought the OP was asking for a more or less factual answer, which I tried to give. It was based on an interview I either heard or read with Joel back in the late 70s.

And I haven't a clue what Mick and the boys are on about regarding the troubadours, and Sgt Pepper seems fairly straightforward, so there is no danger of me ruining those.

[Moirai]

Thanks Pal, why don't you ruin Sgt. Pepper for us next? :rolleyes:




Th' hell?

[shelbo]

So what's the deal on "lay traps for troubadors who never reach Bombay?"
One uncited web site says: The "Troubadours who got killed before they reached Bombay" refers to the hippies who traveled the "Hippie Trail" by road. Many on them were killed and ripped off by drug peddlers in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[gaffa]

Not relevant to this particular song, but I've seen him in concert a few times. Good performer, amusing stage patter. He introduced "Just The Way You Arr" by talking about the problem of singing love songs about someone with whom you are no longer in love, that you tend to go on autopilot, and think about what you're going to eat when you get back to the hotel:

Don't go changing...
(Should I get the steak?)
to try and please me
(Suppose I should eat more fish...)
You never let me down before...
(...or get the pasta...)

He was talking about singing on autopilot like this one evening, thinking about singing a love song to a woman he had divorced years ago when he gets ready to the chorus and his long time drummer Liberty DiVito sings to him:

She got the house, she got the car!

[Faruiza]

Billy Joel and his music are my sacred cow. *whimpers*
Do not eat that steak! Please?

[Helena]

I once heard "Always a Woman" while sitting in the waiting room at the OB/GYN. I was amused.

[minlokwat]

As some have already pointed out, you really can't analyze Billy Joel lyrics too closely but this one's always been obvious to me.

She got a degree that provides immunity from future convictions in Allentown next to the big coal mine and shared a class with some guy who later hit it big as a real estate novelist.

[cochrane]

It might be disco and it might be the blues
Or maybe even somethin' like the B-52's
Just a handclap, finger snap
Even if it's mindless pap
It's still Billy Joel to me

[Boyo Jim]

I wanna know what "She can't be convicted -- she's earned her degree" means.


What degree did she get that gives her a free pass out of prison? I've got a stack of degrees, but none of them are going to keep me out of the hoosegow.

Clearly, she has a law degree, and she represents herself.

Since she can kill with a smile and wound with her eyes, how's she ever gonna get convicted? She'll just kill and main the jurors until they have to declare a mistrial due to too small a jury.

And with the number of prosecutors she's probably killed too, who's gonna have the guts to re-try her?

[Wile E]

Not relevant to this particular song, but I've seen him in concert a few times. Good performer, amusing stage patter. He introduced "Just The Way You Arr" ...

Is that the pirate version?

Don't go pillaging
upon the high seas
you never walked the plank before
...
I love you just the way you arrrr

[MissRancher]

Is it sad I've been told twice now that this song was written about me? Specifically the line, 'she'll carelessly cut you and laugh while you're bleeding' (emotional cutting, of course).

Unrequited love, it hurts.

[Boyo Jim]

Is it sad I've been told twice now that this song was written about me? Specifically the line, 'she'll carelessly cut you and laugh while you're bleeding' (emotional cutting, of course).

Unrequited love, it hurts.

Ooh, I already like you. I'll be destroying myself shortly.

[Mister Rik]

It must be said that many of his songs are confusing, internally contradictory, and misogynistic. Pretty, though.
Some female comedian I heard years ago:

"'Don't go changin' to try to please me ... I love you just the way you are.' Aw, it's pretty, isn't it? Except he wrote it for his first wife. Yeah, don't go changin', 'cause I'm leaving you for Christie Brinkley anyway!"

[Manduck]

"'Don't go changin' to try to please me ... I love you just the way you are.' Aw, it's pretty, isn't it? Except he wrote it for his first wife. Yeah, don't go changin', 'cause I'm leaving you for Christie Brinkley anyway!"
Well obviously she must have gone changin'.

[chappachula]

She got a degree that provides immunity from future convictions in Allentown next to the big coal mine and shared a class with some guy who later hit it big as a real estate novelist.
You win the thread!

But now I just gotta ask: what's a real-estate novelist?
I know of real-estate salesmen, real-estate agents, real-estate brokers, real estate laywers, etc....but a novelist?
And for extra points: is there any other song on earth that features a real estate professional ?

[descamisado]

But now I just gotta ask: what's a real-estate novelist?Jane Anne Phillips wrote Shelter (http://contentcafe2.btol.com/ContentCafe/Jacket.aspx?UserID=BROOKLYNPL&Password=BT0137&Return=1&Type=L&Value=0375727396); does that count?

[astorian]

You win the thread!

But now I just gotta ask: what's a real-estate novelist?
I know of real-estate salesmen, real-estate agents, real-estate brokers, real estate laywers, etc....but a novelist?
And for extra points: is there any other song on earth that features a real estate professional ?

The whole song "Piano Man" is about a bar where all the customers AND employees are miserable, lonely people who wish they were doing something different and better with their lives.

It's based on a real cocktail lounge where Billy Joel was working before he hit it big.

Billy, who dreams of being a rock star, is stuck singing "Misty" and "Cry Me a River" for a crowd of drunks.

There are a LOT of aspiring actors in New York who work at mundane jobs while hoping for their big break. "John at the bar" is one of them. He's been working as a bartender while hoping to make it as an actor, but is starting to realize he's never going to make it.

Paul is a "real estate novelist," which means he's a middle-aged real estate salesman who's been talking for years about the great novel he plans to write, but has never gotten around to writing (and probably never will).

Everyone at this bar has big dreams that probably aren't going to come true.

[Genghis Bob]

. . . Everyone at this bar has big dreams that probably aren't going to come true.

Except for Davey, who's still in the Navy, and probably will be for life.

[StuffLikeThatThere]

Except for Davey, who's still in the Navy, and probably will be for life.

Please stop. I'm never going to be hear the easy listening in my office without guffawing again.

[bubastis]

Reading this, I thought HOLY CRAP! I never knew that was Billy Joel singing this song! WOW!!


Then, halfway down, it registered that Billy Joel is not Billy Idol.

Damn beer dyslexia.

[neutron star]

He introduced "Just The Way You Arr" This is begging for a pirate joke, but I'm not going to be the one who makes it.

[descamisado]

This is begging for a pirate joke, but I'm not going to be the one who makes it.I think he means he loves her, peg-leg and all.

[DianaG]

No, that's Paul McCartney. Except not anymore.

[carnivorousplant]

I suppose I'm humor-impaired, because I don't get the rolleyes. I'm not sure what my answer spoiled for you, but I apologize.
Oh no, I just made a bad joke. I should apologize to you. :)

[ryobserver]

I'm just popping in to recommend a parody: Rob Balder's "Always a Goth Chick."

[Apollyon]

"Convicted" in the sense of "convinced... And "earned her degree" is colloquial for "she's confident in her own knowledge".Interesting. I'd always thought (based on no evidence mind), that this line was a reference to canon vs. common law, and folk who could prove they were educated being exempt from certain common law prosecutions (educated being proved by reading bible passages, etc), an historical "fact" I've run across more than once. (Wracking brain to recall where and when -- something about teaching a criminal to read the Lord's Prayer to save them from hanging....)

Whether this really happened historically or not may not be relevant -- the lyric could still be referring to the urban legend.

Anyway... that's how I'd interpreted it. :)

[Zoe]

bubastis: Then, halfway down, it registered that Billy Joel is not Billy Idol.

Damn beer dyslexia.

Genuinely funny thought processes.

Worst Billy Joel lyrics ever: "Honesty is hardly ever heard..."

[Alessan]

To be fair, Joel has gone on record saying that he doen't really like "Piano Man" (the music is too repetitive and the lyrics are basically limericks) and that he HATES "Just the Way You Are" and "Honesty"; he only released the latter two songs because chicks seemed to dig them.

As to the OP: it's interesting to think of "Stilletto" (from 52nd St.) as a follow-up song to "She's Always a Woman." Same woman, but now he flaws outweigh the virtues - and he still can't let go.

[Jinx]

I wanna know what "She can't be convicted -- she's earned her degree" means.


What degree did she get that gives her a free pass out of prison? I've got a stack of degrees, but none of them are going to keep me out of the hoosegow.

No, I think you have to date someone like this to fully understand this verse. You can NEVER catch this person in a lie because she's a pro. In other words, she's earned her Master's Degree in playing her games. You'll never win. Even in a court of law, she'd get away. Slick as greasy spit.

[Jinx]

To be fair, Joel has gone on record saying that he doen't really like "Piano Man" (the music is too repetitive and the lyrics are basically limericks) and that he HATES "Just the Way You Are" and "Honesty"; he only released the latter two songs because chicks seemed to dig them.

As to the OP: it's interesting to think of "Stilletto" (from 52nd St.) as a follow-up song to "She's Always a Woman." Same woman, but now he flaws outweigh the virtues - and he still can't let go.

Love "Stilletto"! ...Never thought of it as being the same woman. (Jabs at Elizabeth Joel, I WAG?) What an awesome song!

[Jinx]

Oh, yeah, Billy Joel is not such a great lyricist. Like Stevie Nicks, his stuff sounds all profound and shit, but means NOTHING. I mean, what about these lyrics:

They say that these are not the best of times
But they're the only time I've ever known
And I believe there is a time for meditation
In cathedrals of your own
Now I've seen that sad surrender in my lover's eyes
And I can only stand apart and sympathize
For we are always what our situations hand us
It's either sadness or euphoria


Oooh. Wow, man!

Oh, wait, that doesn't mean anything.
Dude, if you have to ask...you've had a cushy life.

[Jinx]

As I heard it, the song is about his first wife, who was his manager at the time. The point was that she was ruthless, on Joel's behalf, with the people with whom he had to do business, (the "You" constantly referenced in the lyrics) but she was "always a woman," that is, loving, to him (the "Me" in the lyrics.)

This is probably right-on target. Joel would have never made it without Elizabeth Joel as she proved to him when his first manager was holding him back. She probably was ruthless beating the business world at their own games.

[Jinx]

Clearly, she has a law degree, and she represents herself.

Since she can kill with a smile and wound with her eyes, how's she ever gonna get convicted? She'll just kill and main the jurors until they have to declare a mistrial due to too small a jury.

And with the number of prosecutors she's probably killed too, who's gonna have the guts to re-try her?
Hey! So, she's the mastermind behind OJ Simpson's dream team of lawyers! Ah-ha, now we know the rest of the story... :D

[Jinx]

The whole song "Piano Man" is about a bar where all the customers AND employees are miserable, lonely people who wish they were doing something different and better with their lives...Paul is a "real estate novelist," which means he's a middle-aged real estate salesman who's been talking for years about the great novel he plans to write, but has never gotten around to writing (and probably never will).

Everyone at this bar has big dreams that probably aren't going to come true.

Ah! Finally after a quarter century plus! BINGO! I always thought he meant to say "novice", but he needed more syllables! Yes, this makes sense at last!
- Jinx

[Jinx]

Worst Billy Joel lyrics ever: "Honesty is hardly ever heard..."

You mean, you've heard the truth time and time again? LIAR! :mad: But seriously, this is dead-center on target about humans especially when socializing. If you heard the truth, yuo were drunk, dreaming, or both. As for me, I'll stick with Diogenes (sp?) looking for an honest person!

[Millit the Frail]

I'm not sure what the song is about. But I once saw a handsome guy sing this at my dorm's karaoke night, and several women's panties nearly caught fire. Hilarious. So I guess it's good for that.

I saw Billy Joel do that "She got the house, she got the car" bit in concert also. I laughed, because I don't much like "Just the Way You Are" either.

[Siam Sam]

Chick's gonna bake forty dozen cookies one day, then slash all your shirts with a straight razor the next.
Sounds like a Thai bargirl.

[Enright3]

I never would have guessed this. I've never heard or read anyone using "convicted" as a synonym for "convinced", and I've never heard "she's earned her degree" as a colloquialism for anything.
Maybe not, but haven't you ever heard of someone who has convictions... as in they really believe in what they're saying?

[Speaker for the Dead]

This is begging for a pirate joke, but I'm not going to be the one who makes it.
No, you're not. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9680243&postcount=30) :D

[Wile E]

No, you're not. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9680243&postcount=30) :D

Bless you for noticing, I thought I was invisible. Wait ... Speaker for the Dead? And you're the only one who noticed my post? ... Am I ... dead?






Well, obviously my joke died.

[Speaker for the Dead]

Bless you for noticing, I thought I was invisible. Wait ... Speaker for the Dead? And you're the only one who noticed my post? ... Am I ... dead?






Well, obviously my joke died.
I giggled, a lot. It was a fantastic stress reliever after final exam 3 of 5 was over.