How Come the US was Never Invaded? Other than the Wussy Terrorists

[Wildest Bill]

Well how come? Especially in WWI & WWII, why didn't they(the Germans, Japenese(other that Pearl Harbor)ever invade mainland USA?

[gobear]

The United States WAS invaded by the British in 1814, when they burned Washington, DC, to the ground. The War of 1812, look it up.

WWI was fought exclusively in Europe, so a foreign invasion
was not a concern.

The Battle of the Coral Sea in 1942 broke the Japanese advance in the Pacific.

[kunilou]

Imagine the logistics of a D-Day invasion and then multiple it by 3,000 miles of ocean. The troop ships would have been sitting ducks hundreds of miles from the coast, there wouldn't have been resources available for air support to the invading force, etc. Even if the invading force could have gotten close to shore, the U.S. defenders would have had a lot of advance notice to rush defenders in.

[andyman]

Originally posted by goboy
The United States WAS invaded by the British in 1814, when they burned Washington, DC, to the ground. The War of 1812, look it up.


The Battle of New Orleans was also part of that. There's even a song about it.

[Astro Hog]

I thought that back during WWII the Alaskan Aleutian Islands were invaded by the Japenese or they came close to being invaded. I believe that this invasion or potential invasion was the whole purpose for constructing the Al-Can highway.

[RickJay]

Originally posted by Wildest Bill
Well how come? Especially in WWI & WWII, why didn't they(the Germans, Japenese(other that Pearl Harbor)ever invade mainland USA?



Too far. Too big.

The Germans had no navy that would make it; even had they managed to pull off an invasion of Britain it would have taken every boat they had, and even then victory was not certain. Try doing that 3,000 miles further against a vastly larger enemy. The Japanese navy was busy fighting the U.S. Navy on the other side of the Pacific, and their offensive towards the U.S. was broken at Midway.

Consider how hard it was for the Allies to stage the Normandy invasion; it took years of planning and more industrial production than the Germans ever had. The Allies established complete air and naval supremacy, were going less than a hundred miles, and even then had a tough time of it.

Amphibious nvasions are remarkably difficult. Successful examples throughout WWII usually involved *massive* air and naval support, all carefully planned and staged.

[toadspittle]

First ask why ENGLAND was never invaded. It's right there. just a few miles across the water from occupied France and all of the German forces. Why didn't the Nazis try it?

Because it's really hard.

As others have said, D-Day (going the other way) was really tough. We only made it through some sleight-of-hand (the Germans thought we'd land farther down the coast).

So the Germans didn't want to attempt it until it looked really promising for them. They had been softening up London with aerial attacks for just about forever, and it still wasn't ripe for the picking. Imagine, then, taking an entire fleet and all of the men needed across a few thousand miles of ocean (of course, you'd need a few hundred thousand spare soldiers, which the Nazis disn't have) that were under constant patrol by allied air and naval forces and then attack a landmass the size of Europe with no easily defensible supply line. A tough prospect.

[gobear]

The Battle of New Orleans was also part of that. There's even a song about it.

Yes, but since Washington was the capital and the Battle of New Orleans was fought two weeks after the signing of the Treaty of Ghent, it didn't seem as important. Still, thanks, for the addition.

[Wildest Bill]

The Battle of New Orleans was also part of that. There's even a song about it.



Is that the catchy song that goes like, "we fired our cannons until the barrels melted down then we grabbed alligator and fought another round. We filled his head with cannon balls and powdered his behind and when we touched the powder off the gator lost his mind"? I LOVE that Song.

They really didn't make a bomb out of an alligator did they? Hech, we are talking about coon asses here? ;)

[Spoke]

My great grandfather invaded Pennsylvania. Does that count?

(Of course, things didn't go so well once he got there. Pickett's Charge and all...)

[CalMeacham]

It's interesting to note that, although US mainland soil has rarely been invaded, the threat has been there. During WWII both Japanese and German ships came amazingly close to our shores. German submarines came appallingly close to the Atlantic shore. I understand that a Japanese ship actually shelled a factory in California. That's a long way from invasion, but still...

IIRC there were incidents in the war of 1812 when we were invaded from Canada. During the war with Mexico there was the possibility of invasion (although I don't think it ever happened). During the Civil War the North invaded the South, and vice-versa. The South even invaded Vermont at one point (weird, but true!)

[Ike Witt]

Don't forget the Japanese balloon bombs. A few hit the US and I think that one causality resulted, I can't remember, but it has been mentioned on the boards before.

[lucwarm]

There's a legend among 2nd Amendment types that the Japanese actually considered an invasion of the American northwest, but decided against it in part because the populace was armed and would be difficult to subdue. Don't know if it's true or not, but I'm sure that in war, lots of ideas get considered.

[Akatsukami]

The German Empire did have two invasion plans prior to WWI.

One was hopelessly unrealistic (I don't recall the exact details, but it was essentially, "we land troops in New York and Boston, march on Washington, and Ruprecht's your uncle; the war's over". I think that the Great General Staff was slightly underestimating the size of the landmass that they were planning to invade). The other was rather more realistic; it called for two German naval squadrons, one to blockade New York City and the other to seize Block Island and, using it as a base, to blockade the eastern end of Long Island Sound; German troops would then march overland to New York, after which Gruppe Whoever would improvise.

Still, this would essentially been an unopposed landing (given the pre-WWI state of the American army, not a bad assumption; although we mobilized pretty fast in 1917, it was most of a year before American troops in any quantity made it Europe). As toadspittle and RickJay point out, an opposed landing would have been a lot more difficult (to the point of impossibility). Moreover, even suppposing that the British fleet would have let the Germans make the Atlantic crossing without harassment, the Germans were basically kidding themselves if they thought that the American navy could have been swept off the seas.

[Fyodor]

The exposure of the coded "Zimmerman Telegram" during WW1 helped bring the US into that war. Famous American historian Barbara Tuchman's first book was called "The Zimmerman Telegram".
As I recall, Zimmerman was the German foreign minister and he telegraphed a coded plan to German diplomats in Latin America. The plan was to cut a deal with Mexico to give them back Texas etc. in return for allowing a German army to launch an invasion of the US from the south. The US wasn't even at war with Germany. I think the Brits intercepted the telegram, decoded it, and informed the Americans. At the time, the Americans felt that "gentlemen didn't read other gentlemen's mail" and had very weak intelligence services. Anyway, the US got somewhat annoyed by this.

My facts and memory may be a little rusty, I read the book when I was 12 years old, but I think I've repeated the facts pretty accurately.

[Scupper]

Originally posted by CalMeacham
I understand that a Japanese ship actually shelled a factory in California. That's a long way from invasion, but still...


Actually, a Japanese submarine surfaced off the coast of California and shelled an oil refinery near Santa Barbara. IIRC, this attack was the inspiration for the movie 1941. It apparently caused quite a stir on the West coast but there was never any serious threat of a Japanese landing.

[Freyr]

lucwarm wrote:

There's a legend among 2nd Amendment types that the Japanese actually considered an invasion of the American northwest, but decided against it in part because the populace was armed and would be difficult to subdue. Don't know if it's true or not, but I'm sure that in war, lots of ideas get considered.

Robert Heinlein, in his book, To Sail Beyond Sunset touched on this idea. In his alternate universe where the Howard Families exist, instead of bombing Pearl Harbor, the Japanese bomb San Francisco. The main character, Maureen Johnson, is there to witness the bombing.

[andyman]

Check it out

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/9198/war1812/w1812f.htm

[waterj2]

I would imagine that an invasion of the US would be incredibly difficult compared to other invasions. We only have two neighbors, so any other country has to either invade them or launch an aphibious assault. We've had the strongest navy in the world for a while now, making it rather unlikely that an amphibious landing force could get across the few thousand miles of ocean required.

If such a force managed to cross the ocean, the US easily has air superiority over its coasts. The enemy are pretty much sitting ducks on the beach. Even if they manage to gain a foothold, they will actually have to conquor cities to get the country to surrender. Basically, if the US wanted, even if it was losing, it could retreat to the opposite coast, extending the enemy's supply lines an additional 3000 miles. Armed citizen in this area would be far from cooperative, meaning high attrition for the supplies.

If the United States were invaded, the Army would swell with new recruits and reserves. Given the thechnological superiority, this would be a formidable force to take on, even if it wasn't on its own soil. Plus we've got nuclear weapons to launch at any country that tries. Any country that wanted to try would have to be absolutely committed to the task. Even then, there are only a couple countries that could possibly have a chance.

[stuyguy]

On September 9, 1942 Nobuo Fujita became the only man to make an enemy bombing run over the continental US. (As noted in an earlier post, Japan dropped many incendiary bombs in the Northwest USA, but they were sent via unmanned balloons.) Fujita flew a single-engine float plane inland from a submarine off Cape Blanco, OR, dropped two incendiary bombs (which were soon extinguished) and returned to the sub. He repeated the feat three weeks later near Port Orford; that bomb, too, fizzled.

Twenty years later he returned to Brookings, OR, near where he dropped his first bombs, as an honored guest; be brought his 400 year-old samurai sword -- that he had brought with him on his bombing runs -- as a token of peace and friendship. The sword can be seen at the Chetco Community Library in Brookings.

[London_Calling]

I don’t think you invade a country the size of the US. What you might do is use a nearby country as a launching pad…err, hey! how’bout Cuba… from which to achieve other objectives designed to get you a deal.

For a while, the Germans in WW2 had the edge in submarine warfare but by the time the States entered that had largely been negated. One useful tactic for them might have been to blockade the US Navy bases and ports – could have been rather nasty had sonar and other tech developments not given the Allies an edge.

[casdave]

The US navy at the start of WWII was not the largest nor the most powerful navy in the world, not by quite some way.
The British navy was that but it was also spread out over a far greater area a long way from home.

What would Germany have wanted the US for ? - all its strategic aims were in Europe and the near East.

Had Germany overcome Europe early on in the war, there was a strong isolationist tendency in the US and there is a realistic prospect that some sort of deal would have been worked out.

It was not until after the war that the US became pre-eminent in the world so there was not much point, given the likely cost, of taking the US and dividing and weakening military strength when more obvious threat lay far closer to home.After WWII the US was way too powerful.

[dtilque]

Here's a thread about Japanese balloon bombs in WWII (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=24510) among other interesting topics (Holy bat bombs, Batman!).

And here's another thread about US coastal defences (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=26632).

[Spoke]

Y'all are obviously forgetting the "Red Dawn" Scenario: Disguise your air transports as commercial airliners. Drop your troops onto the campus of an undefended high school in Colorado. Shoot everybody in sight. Caveat: Be sure to take out Patrick Swayze at the first opportunity. Do not underestimate him, in spite of the fact that he has been observed wearing knitted leg warmers in TV interviews!

[Dr_Paprika]

The Candians have ALREADY invaded. Look at your media types, your Hollywood stars. Pretty soon you'll all be drinking maple syrup in your coffee and wondering what happened, what it's all aboot.

[stuyguy]

Adam yax wrote:

Don't forget the Japanese balloon bombs. A few hit the US and I think that one causality resulted, I can't remember, but it has been mentioned on the boards before.

I think I was the one who mentioned it a few months back. But there were six victims -- Elsie Mitchell (who was pregnant at the time) and her five children. They were the only Americans killed by enemy action in the (continental) US during WWII.

Rev. Archie Mitchell took his family for a Sunday picnic in the Oregon woods on May 5, 1945. His wife and kids spotted an unusual object on the ground, and when they went to inspect it, it exploded killing them all. The Mitchell Monument, in or near the Fremont National Forest, was erected in their honor.

It has been estimated that the Japanese launched about 9000 incendiary balloon bombs between November 1944 and April 1945 intending to start massive forest fires in the Pacific Northwest.

[hansel]

Originally posted by spoke-
Y'all are obviously forgetting the "Red Dawn" Scenario: Disguise your air transports as commercial airliners

You're joking, but this is how the invasion of Afghanistan was carried out 1: an airliner full of Spetnaz radioed to the tower of the airport of Kabul that it was having mechanical difficulties; when they landed, the soldiers stormed the tower and seized it, whereupon planeload after planeload after planeload of Russian soldiers landed at five minute intervals. Suddenly, there was a division of Russian soldiers in the capital, and within a few hours they'd toppled the government and installed a puppet.

Not that it did them much good, in the end, but that's another story.

Is it at all plausible that the same trick could be repeated in say, Alaska? Who wants the lower 48 when you can have the oil-rich and sparsely populated tundra that so reminds one of home, and which one did own at one time, after all?

1 Secret Armies, James Adams. Out of print.

[nebuli]

Actually, the Nazis did invade Amagansett, Long Island and Florida in 1942- so what if each invasion force involved only four saboteurs landed from U-boats. :)
See http://www.lihistory.com/7/hs738a.htm

[kpm]

I always heard that Hitler planned to invade England but called off the plans when he lost the air war in 1940 - the Battle of Britain.

In a sense I guess you could call the Southern States invading the North in the Civil War a form of invasion.

[CalMeacham]

This thread brings up an interesting thought I had:


New York City has never been successfully defended against an attack by sea.


The Dutc bought it from he Indians, f course, but they lost New York to the English, who sailed their ships up close and threatened. The Dutch, seeing th opelessness of the situation, capitulated without a shot being fired.

During he Revolutionary War the colonists attempted to hold Manhattan, but again the British Navy sailed up close. This time they bombarded the island. The colonists' inexperience in building fort walls showed -- bottles enbedded in the embankents were shattered and acted as missiles against the defending Americans. Even if the walls HAD been wel-construced, I suspect the numerical superiority of the British and their superior firepower would have decided the issue. The Americans were forced to retreat. They considered burning the city to prevent the British from taking advantage of it, but decided against it. (See "The Battle for Manhattan" by Bruce Bliven.)

After the Revolutionary War the New Yorkers built a LOT of waterside forts -- the one on Governor's Island, the one n Liberty Island (that becam the base of the Statue of Liberty), Fort Tryon in the north, etc. But as far as know, no one else ever tried to invade Nw York, so we don't know how well they would have worked in combat. You can argue that they were successful deterrents (the British didn't try to invade during the War of 1812, as far as I know).

[Deimos]

sheesh... here in south florida we've been invaded every fall by canada for years. :D

on that note, we're not fooled! we know it was quebec who designed that butterfly ballot!

:::ducks and runs:::

[Chas.E]

Originally posted by unibrow
I thought that back during WWII the Alaskan Aleutian Islands were invaded by the Japenese or they came close to being invaded. I believe that this invasion or potential invasion was the whole purpose for constructing the Al-Can highway.

You are correct. During WWII, the Japanese not only invaded the Aleutians, they put a permanent garrison on some of the more remote islands. The US forces decided that the military threat was so small and weather on the islands was so severe that they did not need to send a force to retake the islands, the weather would kill them off soon enough. And that is exactly what happened. They eventually abandoned the garrison.

However, that wasn't the reason for the AlCan Highway. It was a conduit for supplies headed for Russia.

So let's see... We have a whole list of invasions. War of 1812, Battle of New Orleans, The Revolutionary War. Let me add two:

The French and Indian War. (1755-60)
The Mexico US war. (1846-48) Remember the Alamo?

Yep, it looks like people have been walking all over us. But mostly it's people we had just finished walking all over ourselves.

[Mooney252]

The Canadians, err English, did invade the United States during the border dispute over the San Juan Islands. The "Pig War" began because an American settler of the islands shot the porcine possession of an Englishman. The dispute over the 49-parallel and to which nation the San Juans belonged erupted after that event in 1859.

At that point the British occupied a camp on the northwest side of San Juan Island, while General George Pickett (yup, the guy who led the fateful charge at Gettysburg) led the Americans on the SE corner. General Winfield Scott happily arranged a compromise to end the liklihood of a fight over the islands. The final decision over possession came about 22 years later -- probably defered by the British to see if the United States would stand after the American Civil War.

As others have mentioned, the English also invaded the U.S. during the War of 1812. The Beatles did it again during the 1960s.

[DSYoungEsq]

The Alamo was not a battle fought between the United States and Mexico. It was fought between the revolutionary forces of the soon to exist Republic of Texas and Mexico. Mexico wasn't invading anything; they were trying to hold onto what was, at the time, theirs.


As for the main question, it is simple. We have not been invaded often because we have only two neighbors, neither of whom has had much reason to invade us. The Poles could wish they were so lucky...

[Dr_Paprika]

Would be nice to use the Quebecois in Florida as a fifth column. Believe me, I've tried, and just no getting them away from their poutine.

[Beruang]

In WWII, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, occupied Attu and (I think) Kiska in the Aleutians, and conquered the Philippines and Guam -- all of which were considered US territory. (By the US, at least.)

[absoul]

I can't believe there are people out there that have never played Axis & Allies.

*jaw drops to floor*

[Ura-Maru]

I can't believe there are people out there that have never played Axis & Allies.


Hell, I can't belive there are people who still do. :)

--
"We need more Calgon!"

[whitetho]

Technically the Mexican-American War started with an "invasion" of south Texas by Mexican troops, although the circumstances made that claim somewhat dubious.

When Texas was part of Mexico, its southern border was generally considered to be the Nueces River. But after Texas became independent, it claimed the border was actually further south, along the Rio Grande. (Then known as the Rio Norte).

After the U.S. annexed Texas, President Polk demanded that the Mexican troops posted north of the Rio Grande withdraw to the south of the river, which they refused to do, and skirmishes soon broke out. This was enough for President Polk to claim, in a May 11, 1846 speech (http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/wpages/wpgs620/mexdec.htm) to Congress, that "Mexico has passed the boundary of the United States, has invaded our territory and shed American blood upon the American soil." Mexico, of course, claimed that, by moving troops south of the Nueces, it was the U.S. which was invading.

[Gregor Samsa]

Originally posted by Wildest Bill
...Especially in WWI & WWII, why didn't they(the Germans, Japenese(other that Pearl Harbor)ever invade mainland USA?



How do you define "invaded?" The Germans had submarines off the coast of North America (and, I believe, up the St. Lawrence River) during World War Two. They were definately torpedoing Canadian ships; I imagine they were hitting Yank ships, too.

In fact, the Canadian Navy just found the remains of one of these U-boats (http://www.canoe.ca/AllAboutCanoesNewsApr_May00/05_sub.html) off the east coast of Canada (off Peggy's Cove.)

[toadspittle]

Originally posted by absoul
I can't believe there are people out there that have never played Axis & Allies.

*jaw drops to floor*



Yes, the Axis never invaded the US because it takes two turns to move your transports across the Atlantic.

[Gadarene]

Originally posted by stuyguy
On September 9, 1942 Nobuo Fujita became the only man to make an enemy bombing run over the continental US. (As noted in an earlier post, Japan dropped many incendiary bombs in the Northwest USA, but they were sent via unmanned balloons.) Fujita flew a single-engine float plane inland from a submarine off Cape Blanco, OR, dropped two incendiary bombs (which were soon extinguished) and returned to the sub. He repeated the feat three weeks later near Port Orford; that bomb, too, fizzled.

Twenty years later he returned to Brookings, OR, near where he dropped his first bombs, as an honored guest; be brought his 400 year-old samurai sword -- that he had brought with him on his bombing runs -- as a token of peace and friendship. The sword can be seen at the Chetco Community Library in Brookings.

Damn, stuyguy, I had just come here to post that! Brookings, Oregon happens to be my hometown. I've met Fujita; seemed like a nice guy.

[Moirai]

Wildest Bill, you didn't REALLY need an answer to this question, did you?

I can understand wanting lots of your own threads on the boards, but this question seems juvenile and ridiculous if it was presented as a serious query. A map might have given you enough insight to decipher the general answer...

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

I believe he had an operational plan on paper.

But a combination of financial problems & a desire to begin the disasterous Russian campaign canceled it.

[Chocobo]

Another point would be that no country would be able to hold us. The American people have always been a proud people, so we wouldn't let some country come in and take us over. The general population right now has more guns than the military. If a country was somehow able to land troops and overthrow the govt., citizens would simply organize (or not) and just go ballistic against the invading troops. There'd be rebellion after rebellion after rebellion until the enemy got fed up with us, or was decimated completely. This has been true through-out much of history, so not only is it a matter of invasion, but also a matter of being able to hold us.