My wife is being sexually harassed. Am I doing the right thing by doing nothing? [Archive]

Skald the Rhymer

04-20-2008, 09:16 PM

Here's the sitch:

Earlier this year, my wife began working for a locally-owned company, whose staff, I am told, is somewhere between 100 and 200 persons. A while ago one of the supervisors--but not HER supervisor--found out that she's married to a person of a different race, which he finds offensive. Consequently he's been sexually harassing her, in the hostile-work-environment-sense: he's asked her invasive questions about her sex life, he suggests porn movies she might enjoy, he leaves sex mags on her desk. More than once he's kept at her until she was reduced to tears.

One of her co-workers told me about this, because Mrs. R. has not--because, she says, she was afraid of my reaction. Now, while it's true that my first impulse was to resolve this situation with a baseball bat, I know that's stupid. More to the point, I used to work in HR, and I know what she should do. Make a formal complaint to her boss and to this fucker's boss. Document everything that happens. Say nothing to him not required by work, and remain professional in everything she says--but don't swallow shit the law protects you from.

But Mrs. R. doesn't want to do that. Partly it's because this miserable fuckwit is the owner's nephew; partly because she's a little odd when it comes to standing up for herself in this context, for reasons I won't discuss here. Her plan seems to be to avoid contact with the harasser whenever she can and to tolerate his knavery until she is in private. She thinks it's an improvement that she can keep from crying until she's alone in the car and then fix her makeup before she gets home, because she doesn't want to worry me.

She also wants to deal with this problem herself, by which I mean she doesn't want me to solve it for her or advise her how best to solve it. When I started to go into my HR spiel, she asked me to please let her deal with it her way; it's something she thinks she needs to do, she says.

So I swallowed my advice and my desire to remove the guy's kidneys. But her friend told me today that things are going on the same way.

Which brings me to the thread question. Am I doing the right thing by staying out? How can I persuade her to let me help?

Thanks in advance.

carnivorousplant

04-20-2008, 09:27 PM

I have no idea, but it sucks and I'll subscribe to find out what happens.

JimB.

04-20-2008, 09:40 PM

There's a reason humans have been resolving things like this with sticks and fists longer than with paper and pens. I vote for a beatdown.

Skald the Rhymer

04-20-2008, 09:41 PM

There's a reason humans have been resolving things like this with sticks and fists longer than with paper and pens. I vote for a beatdown.

That would be extremely wise. Our lives would be vastly improved if I were in prison.

Blather

04-20-2008, 09:44 PM

Dewey Finn

04-20-2008, 09:49 PM

You said that she doesn't want you to get involved, but perhaps she would accept the help of someone else. So perhaps you might put her in touch with a labor attorney or a counselor or both and then back off yourself.

jacquilynne

04-20-2008, 09:49 PM

Does she have any sense of whether the owner shares his nephew's particular idiocy?

Skald the Rhymer

04-20-2008, 09:50 PM

What? You were in HR and you don't know how to document harrassment? Maybe I'm missing something here.!

:rolleyes:
No maybe about it.

I know what she should do. Make a formal complaint to her boss and to this fucker's boss. Document everything that happens. Say nothing to him not required by work, and remain professional in everything she says--but don't swallow shit the law protects you from.

But Mrs. R. doesn't want to do that ... Her plan seems to be to avoid contact with the harasser whenever she can and to tolerate his knavery until she is in private. She thinks it's an improvement that she can keep from crying until she's alone in the car and then fix her makeup before she gets home, because she doesn't want to worry me.

She also wants to deal with this problem herself, by which I mean she doesn't want me to solve it for her or advise her how best to solve it. When I started to go into my HR spiel, she asked me to please let her deal with it her way; it's something she thinks she needs to do, she says..

When come back, bring reading comprehension.

HongKongFooey

04-20-2008, 09:50 PM

My gut-reaction reading this is that she is in an over-whelming situation and it may add to the stress if you press her to do something about it. If you stand by her and her decisions you may find in time she'll get her bearings and be more open to your suggestions. It sounds, to me, like she needs support first, advice later. I would make it clear you're in her corner and then wait for her to ask for your help if she needs it. I know this easier to say than to do though, good luck.

Rubystreak

04-20-2008, 09:55 PM

HazelNutCoffee

04-20-2008, 09:59 PM

Perhaps one of her female co-workers might have better luck convincing her to stand up for herself. Unfortunately her situation is too common for many working women - just last week I was discussing such a matter with one of my female students, who told me that her boss harrasses her on a regular basis but that she hasn't reported it for a variety of reasons: she doesn't want to risk her job, she doesn't want to create a fuss, she feels like people will think she's creating a mountain out of a molehill since he hasn't physically harrassed her and "that's just how he is - he doesn't really mean anything." I tried to get her to see that she was perfectly justified in reporting him and that she has no responsibility whatsoever to put up with his bullshit, but she seemed to think that reporting him would be seen as some kind of feminine weakness. Basically what it boiled down to was that the hassle involved in calling him out wasn't worth it, from her point of view. It was very frustrating for me, since she's in my Gender Studies class, for God's sake, but there wasn't much else I could do.

Blather

04-20-2008, 10:02 PM

When come back, bring reading comprehension."When come back, bring grammar". Listen, I'm only suggesting that you may assist in accumulating data in support of issues she is facing. You have some expertise. It is up to her to attack, but you have some juju to mix into the equation.

dangermom

04-20-2008, 10:02 PM

I agree with Rubystreak. Of course you're infuriated, but it's her job to stand up to him, not yours.

It strikes me that the boss probably doesn't want to deal with a huge lawsuit against his company for his nephew. Has the boss got any idea that his nephew is behaving in such an ugly, illegal, sue-worthy fashion? I mean, if I was the boss I'd be delivering some serious smackdown firing to this guy.

Jayn_Newell

04-20-2008, 10:05 PM

I'm reminded of that old advice for dealing with bullies--"Ignore them and they'll go away".

It doesn't work.

She needs to either stand up to this guy and tell him to back off, or she needs to go to HR. Period. If she just tries to put up with him she'll be a human sponge for this behaviour. But it does have to be her. I agree that if nothing else, she should start looking for another job. No one deserves to put up with that shit.

Skald the Rhymer

04-20-2008, 10:06 PM

It's not your place to deal with it. How would you feel if she came to your workplace and yelled at your boss in the same situation? She is an adult and she needs to take control of things. You can't force her to and you can't do it for her. All you can do is support her and try to convince her to stand up for herself. Worse comes to worst, she should start looking for another job, if she refuses to deal with it herself in any other way but crying. But if you get involved, you demean her as a grown woman with her own career (and with legitimate ways of dealing with this that do not involve her husband fighting her workplace battles for her).

I mostly agree with you, Rubystreak, though I never suggested I would go yell at her boss; that would be nearly as stupid as solving the problem with a baseball bat. But what I'm really thinking about is what HazelNutCoffee wrote:

Perhaps one of her female co-workers might have better luck convincing her to stand up for herself. Unfortunately her situation is too common for many working women ....

Would I be as out of line in suggesting the appropriate action to her co-worker as I would be doing so myself, when she has specifically asked me not to? Because my gut says yes, if I'm telling the co-workers such things in order to get her to talk to Mrs. R. I'd just be using the co-worker as a proxy.

But doing nothing is incredibly frustrating.

Skald the Rhymer

04-20-2008, 10:08 PM

"When come back, bring grammar". Listen, I'm only suggesting that you may assist in accumulating data in support of issues she is facing. You have some expertise. It is up to her to attack, but you have some juju to mix into the equation.

"When come back, bring [blank]" is a Straight Dope meme. I'd point out what why you don't recognize it, or aver not to, but this isn't the Pit.

HazelNutCoffee

04-20-2008, 10:12 PM

Would I be as out of line in suggesting the appropriate action to her co-worker as I would be doing so myself, when she has specifically asked me not to? Because my gut says yes, if I'm telling the co-workers such things in order to get her to talk to Mrs. R. I'd just be using the co-worker as a proxy.

But doing nothing is incredibly frustrating.
I don't mean you should ask her co-worker to do anything. From what you've posted her co-worker is already aware of the situation - you wouldn't be telling her anything new. My suggestion is that maybe your wife would be more willing to discussing the situation with her co-worker rather than with you (since she is a woman and a colleague), and that for the same reasons her co-worker might have a better chance of persuading your wife to change her mind about how she's going to deal with the situation at thand.

Rubystreak

04-20-2008, 10:17 PM

Would I be as out of line in suggesting the appropriate action to her co-worker as I would be doing so myself, when she has specifically asked me not to? Because my gut says yes, if I'm telling the co-workers such things in order to get her to talk to Mrs. R. I'd just be using the co-worker as a proxy.

I think it's a really bad idea. That's just my opinion. It seems patronizing and infantlilizing, though I know it's coming out of love and concern. All you can really do is try to help have the strength to take care of her own problems. IMO, you can't get involved personally without undermining her credibilty, self-confidence, and trust in you. It could put a strain on your marriage in addition to her other worries if she ever found out, and she would be right to be angry at you.

But doing nothing is incredibly frustrating.

As a person of action myself, I completely understand and sympathize with you. It's very hard to watch people you care about suffer, esp. when you'd handle the situation differently than they are. But you can't do anything. I hate to tell you that, but you can't, without making her look like a little kid who can't deal with her own problems.

Blather

04-20-2008, 10:27 PM

"When come back, bring [blank]" is a Straight Dope meme. I'd point out what why you don't recognize it, or aver not to, but this isn't the Pit.No war here. I'm sorry if I did not recognize it. It is clear that I am new here. You might admit that it is a phrase that can be easily taken out of context.

Pixilated

04-20-2008, 10:28 PM

Is this affecting your married life, or life outside of work (her life)?

No, do not stay out of it. Encourage, but do not force it on her. It's like telling the guy that his actions are ok because people dont want to disrupt the chain all because of who he is. How much effort does she have to go through to avoid contact with him?? Is he harrassing anyone else? What if someone else comes along and is subject to his behavior? Basically - How LONG will this go on until something is done??? This will not go away on its own, and personally I think it is a disservice to others when someone expects/wants another to "get their hands dirty" and take care of business. Some companies (most likely large ones) reserve the right to fire anyone who knowingly ignores harrassment of any kind instead of reporting it. I have witnessed a couple of people getting fired because they did not report an incident that they witnessed.

Maybe put a bug in her ear, such as:

What if another woman becomes a victim to his harrassment and he takes it to yet another step, she reports it but noone believes her because this guy has a clean record & perhaps she couldnt work long enough to gain some concrete evidence.
Now - what are the chances of his perfect record getting a blemish? Even if another woman steps forward?

Harassment cases are extremely hard to prove! If your wife is receiving a lot of ammo to build a case, she is doing a diservice to every victim/survivor out there. What is it going to take to get your wife to see that ignoring it will not make it go away - him groping her breasts? between the legs?

If I was on a jury panel and I heard plantiff indicate that he/she wanted to deal with it their own way, I would have a hard time empathizing with that person. If the defendent took the victim approach (person is sour because they didnt get promotion/called off affair/etc) I cant say I wouldnt wonder if that wasnt the case.... why? because the plantiff did not take the documented (yes, I said DOCUMENTED) steps to officially stop the defendant.

Blah.... I'm rambling... but I'm hoping this explanation would help your wife to see that not taking action is more harmful, IMO. Oh, and she will not be able to take care of this on her own - it could seriously backfire and harm her.

Boyo Jim

04-20-2008, 10:31 PM

Have there been any 3rd party witnesses to this behavior?

I also suggest you look into the legality of her recording one of these exchanges -- with a little recorder in her purse or a desk drawer.

If I were her, I would find another job, quit this one and then sue, in that order.

Rubystreak

04-20-2008, 10:38 PM

Blah.... I'm rambling... but I'm hoping this explanation would help your wife to see that not taking action is more harmful, IMO. Oh, and she will not be able to take care of this on her own - it could seriously backfire and harm her.

She should take care of it on her own in that her husband should not get directly involved in her workplace. He should encourage her to report it through the proper channels at work, via documentation; maybe she just needs to hear a few times that it CAN get better, she is empowered to take action and get justice. She probably thinks nothing will come of her complains and it'll get worse. Maybe Skald, with his experience, can convince her otherwise.

IMO, however, he should not talk to her co-workers or do else that would more properly be done by her for herself. It's her career, and she is an adult. I think he should support her to the fullest extent, but that's all he can do personally.

sugar and spice

04-20-2008, 10:42 PM

I would say to talk to her, and together try to figure out what would be the worst case scenario if she were to formally complain and/or quit. For example, if she is staying for the money then run the numbers and figure out how you two could get buy on one paycheck, at least until she found another job. I'm not saying that you should tell her to up and quit, just to try to get her to quantify what is the worst that could happen if she did something other than what she is doing now. Hopefully she will see that the worst case is not that bad and this will her her get ready to consider other ways of handling the situation.

Siege

04-20-2008, 10:45 PM

Pixilated makes a very good point and one you might point out to your wife. Chances are she's not the first woman he's harassed and she won't be the last.

Years ago, I worked with a guy who tried to sexually harass me. I say "tried" because I outranked him and I worked in a different department. I brought the matter to his supervisor's attention when I was asked to help out in his department which meant I would be working directly for him. HR talked to him and he apologized to them (not to me, though). That didn't stop him, though. After I left the company, he turned his attentions to a 19 year old girl who worked directly for him. The last I heard, she decided not to sue, either.

I don't know why men do this or what they get out of it. I also understad being reluctant to wreck your own career or somebody else's. You can't make your wife stand up for herself, and, while I understand and appreciate the urge to stand up for one's poor, down-trodden spouse, there are unpleasant legal implications to taking action against the guy which involve the use of a baseball bat. Ask your wife, though, how she'll feel if she hears about some other woman crying in her car because of what this guy's done.

If that's too much, Ms. Manners has a marvelous suggestion for dealing with unwanted conduct. It amounts to becoming very easy to startle, especially if witnesses are around. Next time he touches her, jumping, yelling, and saying, "Oh! You startled me!" may have a deterrent effect. Good luck to both of you!

Boyo Jim

04-20-2008, 10:47 PM

You should not talk to her co-workers. You are probably not knowledgeable enough to know who is trustworthy or not. You should certainly encourage her to talk to others at work that she trusts.

HongKongFooey

04-20-2008, 10:48 PM

HazelNutCoffee

04-20-2008, 10:55 PM

You should certainly encourage her to talk to others at work that she trusts.
This is what I'm suggesting. I'm not saying the OP should take matters into his own hands and discuss her situation with her co-workers. But it's clear from the OP that one co-worker already knows - one that Mrs. R considers a friend. A simple "Could you talk to her about it?" would be fine and not crossing any lines, IMO. I don't see how this is "infantilizing" her; sometimes someone close to you has problems that they would rather discuss with someone else.

astro

04-20-2008, 10:55 PM

If my wife was in a scenario like that where she was effectively agreeing to be continuously sexually harassed every day in exchange for a paycheck, I'd kind of have to stand back and take stock of the situation. This is not a unilateral scenario where your wife is tied to the railroad track by Simon Legree. You wife is not a child, not is she retarded. She has the ability to get another job. She has made the calculation that she is willing to put up with this disgusting behavior in exchange for continued employment. By not taking action she is becoming complicit in this situation.

If this job were the only thing between you and homelessness I could possibly understand her motivations somewhat more clearly, but it's not, and this passive nonsense where she doesn't want to do anything, but will tell you so that you are completely, and utterly spun up is insane. To me this is a relationship deal breaker. If my wife refused to handle the problem like an adult, or otherwise take herself out of a situation where a co-worker or manager was being sexually inappropriate and aggressive with her, I could not exist in a scenario like that. The frustration between wanting to intervene in an extremely direct fashion with the harasser, and her insistence to do nothing would be impossible to tolerate.

In every relationship there are times of crisis where you need to decide if a disagreement on a principle is of sufficient import that it's "the hill you want to die on" re being a make or break issue. For me (if she were my wife) her quitting this job, or reporting this behavior vs doing nothing would be such a hill. The situation you describe is utterly intolerable and needs to be addressed directly.

astro

04-20-2008, 11:07 PM

As an example flip it around. Imagine you were being continuously sexually harassed by a female manager with porn, comments etc. etc., and this made you sad and depressed. You tell your wife about this, and when she urges you to take action you tell her that you were not going to do anything because you really liked the job, and besides you really just didn't want to handle a confrontation.

I'll leave it to you to decide how many wives would put up with that insanity for more than one minute.

mnemosyne

04-20-2008, 11:40 PM

If her coworker is coming to you to tell you about this, then you can suggest to the coworker to try and convince your wife to do something about it, because it's the advice you'd give anyone, isn't it? In that case it doesn't matter that it's your wife; someone has come to you as a witness to harassment, and you encourage them to get the victim to act on it.

Can the coworker report the harassment herself? If she's seeing this on a daily basis, and she's feeling uncomfortable about the porn and comments the pig makes, then she can make a complaint on her own behalf, and hopefully that will help. Frankly, if I knew a coworker was bringing in porn to work, regardless of his motivations, I'd report him anyways! It's just inappropriate, and he deserves a reprimand.

In the meantime, if I was you, I'd certainly mention it to your wife every time her coworker talks to you about it, because I think that might help her realise that this isn't only about her. Other people are being affected, and are worried, and it will perhaps convince her that it's time to do something about it. Tell her you aren't trying to force her to do anything, but that Coworker talked to you again, and you hope that she's doing what she needs to deal with it, and leave it at that.

Good luck! I hope something happens to get this asshole to harassing your wife!

Tristan

04-20-2008, 11:47 PM

I would strongly urge my wife to step up, and do the right thing. If he's doing it to her, he's probably doing it or done it to others.

If that didn't work, I would make some phone calls, and dudes car would get destroyed.

If that didn't work, more phone calls.

Cat Whisperer

04-21-2008, 12:08 AM

I have to agree with everyone who said all you can do is support her. I was trying to imagine how I would feel in your wife's shoes, and I think the best thing my husband could do would be to tell me that he 100% supports whatever I want to do about the situation - if I want to quit, if I want to go to HR, or if I want to just let it go on for whatever reason I think I have to. I think if you tell your wife why you want her to do something about it (because you hate the thought of someone hurting her), and then tell her you completely support her decision and will help her any way you can, you might win her over eventually if you don't push.

thirdwarning

04-21-2008, 12:32 AM

Let her know that it's safe to talk to you about it, that you won't tell her what to do, you won't try to fix it. At some point soon you can tell her what you think she should do. "Honey, I'm going to say this, this one time. Then I'm going to shut up and let you do what you need to do. I'm here to listen, I have hugs and support here for you." If she knows you won't keep trying to fix it for her she may be able to share it with you and that might help her figure it out. It may be that she's gearing up for the fight, and you taking things into your own hands is like letting her know you don't think she can handle it. Not a good way to build her confidence.

If you see it really hurting her, like keeping her from sleeping, or she says it's affecting her work, or she's getting way overstressed, then you might have to rethink, but it's still her decision what to do, and when.

Standard disclaimer: I'm not your wife, but this is how I would like things to go.

Blank Slate

04-21-2008, 12:47 AM

Sleeps With Butterflies

04-21-2008, 01:32 AM

You mention that she wants to handle it her own way. Has she mentioned what this way is? Does she have a plan, or is her way to just absorb it each day and hope it stops?

Maybe if she could share with you what the plan is and/or the reasons why, you could feel less powerless?

Sorry to read you're both going through this.

thirdwarning

04-21-2008, 01:35 AM

I'm sorry, I can't get with letting something like this alone. I can only imagine if it was my wife and someone was violating her in this manner. I would find out his name and make it very clear to him that I would crack his fucking skull if ever speaks a single inappropriate word to her again. This would piss my wife off no end, I'm sure, but I would have to risk sparking her anger and disappointment. No job, no nothing, would let me tolerate something like that.

At that point, if you were my husband, you've just guaranteed I never tell you about a problem again. If I can't trust you to trust me and treat me like an adult, you don't get to know what's going on with me.

Blank Slate

04-21-2008, 01:47 AM

At that point, if you were my husband, you've just guaranteed I never tell you about a problem again. If I can't trust you to trust me and treat me like an adult, you don't get to know what's going on with me.

I know. I'm not a macho idiot that doesn't know better.

It's the nature of the situation.

...he's asked her invasive questions about her sex life, he suggests porn movies she might enjoy, he leaves sex mags on her desk. More than once he's kept at her until she was reduced to tears.

On top of which, there is some aspect of racial hatred? I'm sorry, it's just beyond the pale. I'm only being honest in saying that I wouldn't be able not to act unless there was an immediate remedy to the situation.

Mesquite-oh

04-21-2008, 02:09 AM

At that point, if you were my husband, you've just guaranteed I never tell you about a problem again. If I can't trust you to trust me and treat me like an adult, you don't get to know what's going on with me.Everyone's relationship is different of course, but in my relationship, accepting a situation in which my wife is being terrorized without any action is NOT "trusting and treating" her "like an adult." Trusting and treating her like an adult is something that comes into play when it comes to decisions about whether she should have her own credit card, or whether she should have the discretion to sign up for a semester of grad school, not whether or not she should let herself be victimized without action. That is Bullsh#t that should not be going down.

I doubt that in my relationship, my wife would tell me that I don't get to know what is going on with her just because I am trying to help her fight off something that she does not seem to have the tools (at the present time) to handle (YMMV, of course). If she had the tools, the problem would have been dealt with before the repetitive crying in the car stage.

Sometimes the people we love get in over their heads with things and they are too proud to admit, blind to see, or have some other blockage to deal with effectively. It is up to you, as a loving spouse who knows your partner as well as anyone else in the world, who cares for that person more than anyone else in the world, to step in when you think that it is appropriate. If there is some employer who is putting porn mags on a person's desk, and the victim doesn't show action and it affects them to the point of tears, and the harrassment is continuing on, then I think that it is perfectly reasonable for the person who cares for that other person to step in and do what they can to assist.

I say do everything you can to convince her to stand up for herself and go through the proper procedures for her to protect herself. Let her know that you are there for her, no matter what can o' sh#t gets opened up, even if she loses her job. I would explore the resistance, what is she so afraid of that is worse than being victimized? Life is too short to put up with a job with an A-hole harrasing her and possibly others.

astro

04-21-2008, 02:15 AM

At that point, if you were my husband, you've just guaranteed I never tell you about a problem again. If I can't trust you to trust me and treat me like an adult, you don't get to know what's going on with me.

How long would any husband with a backbone allow his wife to be harassed like that? Porn? Dirty comments? It fascinates me that some otherwise sane women in this thread somehow think that they are going to tell their husband this stuff, and that if they choose to do nothing, and continue to subject themselves to harrassment because they like the job, and/or are scared to rock the boat, his reaction should be "I'll support whatever you decide dear, and we'll hope for the best."

That's not being an adult, that's being a complicit doormat, and to expect a decent, protective husband to go along with that insanity is not a reasonable or rational expectation.

sandra_nz

04-21-2008, 02:16 AM

What a horrible situation for your wife to be in.

I'm not really sure what advice to offer and you've already had great advice posted above.

What I did just want to mention is to take care how you react when she talks to you about this. It's very easy to go into 'solve the problem' mode and start making suggestions about what she could and should do. What she probably needs is someone 'neutral' who will listen and sympathise without going into 'well you need to do x, y, and z' mode.

So ask her how she's feeling. Ask her what options she's considered. Ask her what you can do to help. Let her make the decisions and take the actions.

I'm not saying you're not doing all these things already, of course! Just thought it would be worth raising.

t-bonham@scc.net

04-21-2008, 03:10 AM

One possible way of dealing with this, more indirectly than just going to HR with a complaint (which is what I think your wife should do):

1. Find out the name of the owner's lawyer.

2. Make an appointment with that lawyer.

3. At the appointment, discuss your planned lawsuit against this company for sexual harassment & racial bias. Give him details, mention that it has been witnessed by other employees (without giving names), that you have notes & documentation of many incidents. Be sure to mention that you want to sue both the company, and the owner personally, because it's his nephew doing this, and you're sure the owner is allowing this to happen.

4. Somewhere during this meeting, the lawyer will tell you that he can't possibly act for you, since he is the lawyer for the company owner. He might recommend someone else in the firm, but more likely he will tell you you have to go to another law firm.

5. I think legal ethics would say that he shouldn't reveal this to anyone. A version of attorney-Client privilege, maybe -- but you aren't going to be his client, actually. But regardless of that, within a few hours, the word will get to the owner of this company.

6. Then you will find out about the owner. If he is a decent & honest employer, the nephew will get called in for a severe talking-to, if not more. If the owner's not a decent person, he may decide to fire your wife quickly, before she can sue. At least she gets away from the jerk of a nephew. And now you really have grounds for a lawsuit.

Mosier

04-21-2008, 03:43 AM

Your wife does not seem able to solve this problem herself. It's strange that she won't seek help for it though. Does she think it's her fault or something, like victims of physical abuse sometimes do?

You should definitely get involved, despite her request not to. I don't know how, but she's suffering and she can't do anything about it. It sucks, but if the only way to avoid making the problem worse is to convince her to quit, that might be all you can do.

glee

04-21-2008, 04:28 AM

I'm sorry your family is in this situation.

When people are being bullied, they often feel ashamed and that it's their fault somehow.
The correct way to deal with bullying in the workplace is to go to HR with evidence.
If that doesn't work, speak to a lawyer.

Your wife's idea that she will deal with a powerful confident bully 'in her own way' is very unlikely to suceed. Presumably she's hoping not to 'upset' him and maybe avoid him?

Suggestions from posters that you beat up the bully or smash his property :rolleyes: will lead to you getting a criminal conviction and probably your wife being fired.

Tristan

04-21-2008, 05:11 AM

DianaG

04-21-2008, 06:07 AM

Your wife is a legal adult with all her faculties, who has asked you to stay out of this, correct? I'm failing to see the dilemma.

Respect her wishes, and be supportive of her decisions. You know, like a husband is supposed to do.

How long would any husband with a backbone allow his wife to be harassed like that? Porn? Dirty comments? It fascinates me that some otherwise sane women in this thread somehow think that they are going to tell their husband this stuff, and that if they choose to do nothing, and continue to subject themselves to harrassment because they like the job, and/or are scared to rock the boat, his reaction should be "I'll support whatever you decide dear, and we'll hope for the best."

That's not being an adult, that's being a complicit doormat, and to expect a decent, protective husband to go along with that insanity is not a reasonable or rational expectation.
Well, that's one of the more condescending, paternalistic things I've ever read here. Unless, of course, you'd welcome your wife's interference in your business despite your explicit requests to the contrary.

MsWhatsit

04-21-2008, 06:43 AM

Legal and HR advice aside, I think one of the best things you can do for your wife in this situation is to let her know that you will give her a shoulder to lean on. Let her know that if she at ANY POINT changes her mind and wants you to step in on her behalf or give you advice, you will do so, but that until that time, if she wants to vent rage at this asshole, or cry on your shoulder, she can do so, and you will give her emotional support. Letting her know that she doesn't have to be stressed out about her husband finding out she's been crying, on top of all the bullshit she's going through at work, might be really helpful for her at this point.

This is a tough situation. It's hard to give advice because I honestly, truly, cannot imagine being in Mrs. Rhymer's situation and not wanting to take some kind of action against this dude. You both have my sympathy.

DrCube

04-21-2008, 07:26 AM

HR is a hopeless dead end street, especially since this guy is related to the owner. All they can do is fire him, and chances are they won't even do that.

First, a quick but thorough talk with a lawyer to see if we can get this guy fired AND in a hardcore fuck-me-in-the-ass prison. If the answer is no, plan B is:

Escalation of force:
1) Stern words of warning;
2) Fisticuffs/blunt objects;
3) Firearms.

Regardless, this fucker wouldn't get away with it at all.

It is one thing to allow my intelligent, adult wife a chance to fix the situation herself. But if she is going to just sit there and take it, I, the husband who swore to love and provide and protect her, must take the situation into my own hands. Regardless of the violence or legality of my response. IMO.

Otto

04-21-2008, 08:21 AM

HR is a hopeless dead end street, especially since this guy is related to the owner. All they can do is fire him, and chances are they won't even do that.
Related to the owner or not, if HR doesn't want to open up the company and the uncle to further liability, they will take action.

It is one thing to allow my intelligent, adult wife a chance to fix the situation herself. But if she is going to just sit there and take it, I, the husband who swore to love and provide and protect her, must take the situation into my own hands. Regardless of the violence or legality of my response. IMO.
As the OP has already noted, his ability to "provide [sic] and protect her" would be severely compromised were he to follow your advice and wind up in what you so charmingly refer to as a "hardcore fuck-me-in-the-ass prison."

DianaG

04-21-2008, 08:29 AM

It is one thing to allow my intelligent, adult wife a chance to fix the situation herself. But if she is going to just sit there and take it, I, the husband who swore to love and provide and protect her, must take the situation into my own hands. Regardless of the violence or legality of my response. IMO.
So... she's an intelligent adult when she behaves in a way you approve of, and an incompetent child to be protected when she doesn't? Does she know that's how you feel? Because it may not be what she believes she signed up for.

Swallowed My Cellphone

04-21-2008, 08:55 AM

No war here. I'm sorry if I did not recognize it. It is clear that I am new here. You might admit that it is a phrase that can be easily taken out of context.No, not here.

Zsofia

04-21-2008, 08:57 AM

A lot of times, women seem to talk about their problems because they want sympathy, not advice. It kind of drives me nuts when I tell Himself all about some shitty situation at work, and he's all like "Here's what you need to do." I mean, that's not what I'm asking him, and when he does that I feel like he's pressuring me to do something or maybe ask why I haven't done something, when I just wanted to tell him how much it sucks and have him rub my feet. Just a thought.

I mean, I might hesitate to tell Himself if shit like that was going down at work, not just because he'd try and choke a bitch, but also because I just wouldn't want to deal with his reaction. I mean, I'd already be worn down by it and feeling shitty and then he'd be all "RAAAR!" and "You have to do a) b) c)" and frankly maybe I just wouldn't want to schedule his emotions into my busy day, you know? On the other hand, if it was as blatant as porno mags and such, I'd be in HR that day, so maybe I'm not the person to ask.

And I have, myself, reported somebody for a hostile work environment sort of thing. Constant filthy jokes (and it takes a lot to perturb me), constant comments to me about female customers, etc. The guy also sold pot in the store. He was still in his 90 day trial period. We couldn't prove it but knew he stole stuff. They didn't fire him.

HMS Irruncible

04-21-2008, 09:16 AM

She also wants to deal with this problem herself, by which I mean she doesn't want me to solve it for her or advise her how best to solve it. When I started to go into my HR spiel, she asked me to please let her deal with it her way; it's something she thinks she needs to do, she says.

So I swallowed my advice and my desire to remove the guy's kidneys. But her friend told me today that things are going on the same way.

Which brings me to the thread question. Am I doing the right thing by staying out? How can I persuade her to let me help?
If she asked you to stay out, then you're doing the right thing by staying out.

There could be larger things in play that you don't understand by virtue of not being in her shoes, and she's got a better handle on it than you. Just as a wild fictitious scenario, maybe she's the victim of a gossip campaign about an inappropriate relationship with the guy, and filing an HR complaint would just add fuel to the fire. Or maybe she's trying not to call attention to her interracial relationship because she believes others would also give her grief, the subtle type of grief that isn't so easy to document and support.

For whatever reason, she's decided she has to work at a job where she has to accept being harassed. You can't change the harassment part of the equation, nor can you change her decision to accept that harassment. As I see it, the only thing under your control is to make it 100% clear that you don't expect her to stay at any job that causes her distress. Let her know she has your support to quit immediately and take all the time she needs to find another job. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Zebra

04-21-2008, 09:23 AM

That situation blows for your wife and for you.

I've been in a similar situation where my wife, in her acting company, was being hit upon by other men. (a different guy every month) She too, didn't want to tell me about afraid of my reaction. I told her that I trusted her to deal with the problem and that I would support her.

She ended up having an affair and our marriage is over.

Now I don't think your wife is going to have an affair with this jerk, but she must deal with this. And the way to deal with it is to document it, present it HR and if they won't help, a lawsuit with the help of the EEOC is in order.

You have every right to be pissed off at this guy and your wife shouldn't be telling you to just 'accept it'.

Wile E

04-21-2008, 09:29 AM

A lot of times, women seem to talk about their problems because they want sympathy, not advice. It kind of drives me nuts when I tell Himself all about some shitty situation at work, and he's all like "Here's what you need to do." I mean, that's not what I'm asking him, and when he does that I feel like he's pressuring me to do something or maybe ask why I haven't done something, when I just wanted to tell him how much it sucks and have him rub my feet. Just a thought.
...

Whether you agree with the book or not, this exact same scenario was in Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus and it's true. Women just want sympathy, not advice and they definitely do not want the man to take over and tell them what to do. Don't offer advice unless you are asked directly.

I have to agree with all the advice about just being there to support her. The most you could do would possibly get her some information or numbers to call for her to get some professional help/advice on the matter and give them to her in a very non-confrontational "not a big deal" way, "hey, I found some information for you, if you're interested" and leave it at that. It would be her decision on whether or not to use it.

I am a bit shocked at the relationship deal breaker comment. People are all different, we process and deal with things differently. It's rather bull-headed to assume that anyone who doesn't handle things the way you would has something wrong with them. Trying to force someone to handle their problems your way would most likely be the deal breaker for them.

Uncommon Sense

04-21-2008, 09:33 AM

How bout an anonymous note to the owner from the OP? You could make it sound like it came from a concerned co-worker.

Let him know that someone might get their face ripped off if it doesn't stop because you know that the employees husband is aware of the activities and he's gettin' gosh awful upset about it. He also owns a bunch of cool toys he got from an auction that a crazy Vietnam vet held a few years back.
Done.

Cheesesteak

04-21-2008, 09:37 AM

Your wife is a legal adult with all her faculties, who has asked you to stay out of this, correct? I'm failing to see the dilemma.The dilemma is that his wife is spending her afternoons crying in her car, and trying to hide it from him, and refusing to work together to stop being harassed. Respect her wishes, and be supportive of her decisions. You know, like a husband is supposed to do. It's hard to respect and support someone when their decisions thus far have been to do nothing but allow herself to be harassed, and hope to keep her unhappiness a secret.

At a minimum, husband and wife should be a team, working together for the common good. He, with his HR experience, can work with her to stop this harassment, but she wants to do it "on her own" like she's some movie action hero. "Stand back, I need to take down the villain my way, by holding in my tears until I make it to the car. That'll show 'em." One of the primary reasons to get married is that you're no longer alone, you don't have to deal with problems by yourself, you have a partner, someone who will help you when you have trouble, someone who's got your back. Doing this alone isn't going to make her some big shot tough guy, it's apparently just going to prolong the harassment.

Since she seems to be hell bent on the the action hero approach, all he can do is tell her that he's there for her to talk to, and is willing to bring his HR experience to help, if she decides to go that route. Definitely don't bother trying to push her to do something, that just makes people dig in and resist other options even more.

DianaG

04-21-2008, 09:37 AM

Seriously, has (nearly) everyone here lost their damned minds?

Skald, your wife asked you to leave it alone, so leave it alone. She doesn't require your protection, and there is nothing that you can do that isn't going to both piss her off, and make her look bad.

Boys, do take a deep breath and a moment to contemplate how you'd feel if your wife came on down to the office to fight your battles for you.

pbbth

04-21-2008, 09:39 AM

Just let her deal with it in her own way and support her. Life has a funny way of working things out. For example, I posted a thread a couple of months ago about being in a similar situation as your wife, though mine involved a lot less pornography. There was a guy in the office being a huge jerk, screwing around with my work to make me look stupid, and generally being an asshole. I posted here about it asking for advice and went to my boss with proof that my work was being screwed around with (though I didn't specify a person I thought was sabotaging things, just that I found all the work I had done that had previously dissapeared) and things immediately changed. I figured that the harrassment stopped because I proved that I would stand up for myself and not let someone else screw with my work. Then as I was surfing the dope a supervisor in another department walked by, looked at my screen, smiled and walked away, and I remembered that in the first month I was here he had seen me reading the dope during lunch and had asked how Cecil is doing. So whether the situation was solved by my addressing the problem with my boss or because another supervisor reads the boards and recognized the situation and addressed it so I wouldn't have to it still worked out for the best. Who knows, maybe by posting here you have already done what needed to be done to help fix her problem.

And if you are reading this and you did indeed do something to stop all the crap that was going on in my office, thanks!

Acid Lamp

04-21-2008, 09:45 AM

A relationship is more than just "being there". Nashiitashii and I take care of each other; and that includes occasionally intervening or having a serious talk about an issue.

The fact that she continues to do nothing about it rings serious alarm bells in my mind. Either she's been the victim of some sort of abuse before, or has some other underlying issue here. No self-respecting woman would put up with that sort of behavior for one red second without feeling that there would be SERIOUS repercussions if she brought it up.

Granted my advice is just words on the intarwebs, and worth what you paid for it, but I should have a serious sit-down with her. Explain to her that the situation is hurting you, and you feel like you are powerless to help her. Explain that you feel that her current method is really demeaning and that you feel cut out of the loop in her justifications. Ask her WHY she isn't doing anything. Tell her that you'll abide by her decision if she can just explain it to you.
A spouse has the right to ask for justification.

Maybe she's biding her time, but when she included you into this problem, as a spouse you have an obligation to help solve a problem that is obviously causing her significant pain.

The rest of you who just say shut-up and be supportive are a little too liberal here, imho. How far will it have to go before someone ought to do something? Her behavior indicates that maybe it's gone way too far already, and she's scared.

NinetyWt

04-21-2008, 10:11 AM

Either she's been the victim of some sort of abuse before, or has some other underlying issue here. No self-respecting woman would put up with that sort of behavior for one red second without feeling that there would be SERIOUS repercussions if she brought it up. Isn't Mrs. R a bit young? I know that I didn't gain this empowerment perspective until I was 25 or so, at least. I say encourage her, but also see if older women whom she trusts might get involved. Not that any of you guys couldn't tell her how to do it - but this is something she needs to learn how to do, how a lady does it.

Acid Lamp

04-21-2008, 10:20 AM

Isn't Mrs. R a bit young? I know that I didn't gain this empowerment perspective until I was 25 or so, at least. I say encourage her, but also see if older women whom she trusts might get involved. Not that any of you guys couldn't tell her how to do it - but this is something she needs to learn how to do, how a lady does it.

That's interesting, I didn't consider age, though I've no idea of Mrs R's. Nashiitashii and I are discussing this,(hooray for working from home!) but she's going to chime in on it.

HongKongFooey

04-21-2008, 10:23 AM

Her behavior indicates that maybe it's gone way too far already, and she's scared.
We haven't actually heard anything from her about this. She is in a position where she is being disrespected, going against her wishes on this won't help. She doesn't need to be treated like a kid while manly men fight it out on her behalf. If anything she needs to be treated with more respect.

My best friend is a female co-worker, I've seen her deal with situations like this (minus the porn) a few times. I only know about it because she trusts me to listen; when she asks for my advice it's there but that's only happened twice that I can recall. She's not going to run home and tell her boyfriend about every guy that hits on her, it happens every week. If it were my wife going through it, I would have a very hard time approaching it so calmly. I say trust your wife, she's smart enough to have a job and feed herself and get to and from work and function in an adult world, she should be able to handle this.

Cat Whisperer

04-21-2008, 10:27 AM

When I was being bullied at work, the best thing my husband said to me was "I know we need the money, but I need you healthy more. If you need to quit, just do it." And I did, after taking all the steps I could think of to get her to stop (short of confronting her, because I wasn't as comfortable with confrontation back then). If my husband had gone to my workplace and done or said anything, my response would have been, "That was very gallant of you, but have you lost your freakin' mind?" Sometimes being part of a partnership means letting your partner do things their way, even if you would very, VERY much like to do them differently.

Is it just me, or are we seeing the responses generally split along gender lines here? Skald was basically asking for a woman's perspective, and we're giving it to him. You guys telling him to go to her office with both guns blazing are not helping him.

Chimera

04-21-2008, 10:30 AM

DianaG's freakout aside, I think there is a certain point at which I would have to do something about it, regardless of my wife's feelings. Dealing with it by not dealing with it, but then taking all that pain home to me is not a viable long-term solution that I would want to be a part of.

Edit for Featherlou: I wouldn't do any of it "with guns blazing", nor with violence. The man is HR. He should know better ways.

And no, I wouldn't be bothered at all if, in a similar but opposite position, my wife took it upon herself to bitchslap some upper management cow who wouldn't leave me the fuck alone. I'd smile in UMC's face and say "I didn't do anything because you're a relative of the boss and I figured you'd just lie about everything and get me fired. But you....you should be worried about my wife."

Then I'd take my wife out for a very special dinner. :D

Acid Lamp

04-21-2008, 10:31 AM

Who is treating her like a kid? I said that her behavior is weird, and that her spouse has a right to ask her why she chooses to do nothing about the issue. The fact that she cries about it in private obviously means it hurts her and she doesn't consider it to be no big deal. I never said he ought to ride to the rescue.

I'm not a psychologist or a counselor, but in my experience they only time women put up with this kind of garbage behavior is when they feel too intimidated to do anything about it.

HMS Irruncible

04-21-2008, 10:37 AM

Whether you agree with the book or not, this exact same scenario was in Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus and it's true. Women just want sympathy, not advice and they definitely do not want the man to take over and tell them what to do. Don't offer advice unless you are asked directly.
I hear this generalization repeated over and over, and it bugs the shit out of me. Now hear this: Men don't appreciate unsolicited advice any more than women do. Women aren't any less likely than men to give unsolicited advice. People all love to bitch about their problems, receiving sympathy that is free of advice or judgement. It may be true that women are more likely to start and continue extended conversations about their problems.

DianaG

04-21-2008, 10:40 AM

DianaG's freakout aside
So indicating that he should respect her wishes, and asking people to consider it from her point of view is "freaking out"? How very feminine of me, I suppose. :dubious:

MsWhatsit

04-21-2008, 10:40 AM

Now hear this: Men don't appreciate unsolicited advice any more than women do.

Sure, but I think that in general, when men relate a problem to someone else, they consider that to be a solicitation for advice. Women tend to consider it to be a solicitation for sympathy and/or support.

This is a vast generalization and not directly applicable to any specific situation, but it's a general trend that I have found to be true in a lot of my interpersonal relationships.

nashiitashii

04-21-2008, 10:44 AM

So... she's an intelligent adult when she behaves in a way you approve of, and an incompetent child to be protected when she doesn't? Does she know that's how you feel? Because it may not be what she believes she signed up for.
Having seen women my own age (25) do stupid things for the sake of "not making a big deal out of the situation," I must admit that a lot of women, regardless of age, seem to feel that it's their duty to take abuse and play the part of the "incompetent child" when things like this happen. I have my own experience with people doing awful things to me and having to learn to stand up for myself, but it seems like a lot of women never get to the point where they're actually doing it, hence the "incompetent child" role. I must admit, though, that I still have trouble not falling into this stupid behavior in some situations, as I realize that there are some people who are going to cause a fuss just because you don't have a penis and you're not eighty million years old, and it's best not to even bother trying to do anything but get them to shut up and go away.

Either way, sometimes, despite the best practices within trying to empower women, we still have women who refuse to do the right thing and thus punish themselves and allow themselves to suffer for the sake of not stirring the pot. Your reaction seems to be that you're encouraging her self-destructive behavior rather than encouraging the husband to try to help her empower herself. Yes, we don't always want advice when we rant, but this is a pretty damned serious issue, so, whether she likes it or not, she should be getting encouragement to do something and not behave like a blubbering idiot and do nothing.
Isn't Mrs. R a bit young? I know that I didn't gain this empowerment perspective until I was 25 or so, at least. I say encourage her, but also see if older women whom she trusts might get involved. Not that any of you guys couldn't tell her how to do it - but this is something she needs to learn how to do, how a lady does it.
I'm still finding my feet when it comes to appropriate ways to discourage bad behavior in people who are senior to me by a few decades, and I'm 25. I have, however, more or less figured out that it's totally fine to stand up for myself against people who are within ten years of my age and are more likely to understand that I'm berating them for doing something wrong, and not just being an "uppity woman." It sounds like the nephew of the owner can't be that much older than Mrs. R in this situation, and somebody needs to encourage her to stand up for herself. Just sitting there and taking it isn't working, and at the very least, she could tell him to fuck off and leave her alone (but in a more polite wording) and see if it does anything. He may have his head so far up his ass (as most employee-relatives of company owners often do) that he doesn't realize that other people have their own thoughts and ideas. Mrs. R should be making it absolutely clear to him that his behavior is inappropriate and that, if he does it again, she's going to HR/her lawyer/the big boss over it; it's not her husband's place to say this, but it is her husband's place to empower her and help her understand that she's got to stand up for herself in this situation. Nobody deserves this kind of abuse.

Chimera

04-21-2008, 11:03 AM

So indicating that he should respect her wishes, and asking people to consider it from her point of view is "freaking out"? How very feminine of me, I suppose. :dubious:

Not "feminine", just obnoxious. Don't read in motives that do not exist, just for the sake of justifying your feelings.

When you get married, you aren't alone anymore. Deciding to take on the world by yourself and tell your spouse to stay out of it is selfish behavior. The problems that affect you in such a serious way impact your spouse and your relationship.

On the other side of the same coin, deciding to deal with a serious issue that impacts both of you by refusing to deal with it is not a solution. It is a guarantee that both of you will continue to be impacted by that problem and it is quite likely that the problem will get worse, not better.

I had this problem with my ex-wife, who thrived on creating problems and then refusing to deal with them. Who actively worked to thwart my resolution of problems. Because she was mentally ill and "Problems = Sympathy from Others". Not saying that Skald's wife is like this, but that this is my history, my reason for being bothered by this kind of behavior.

Sexual Harrassers feed on silence and passivity. Silence implies consent. "She didn't scream rape, so it must not bother her...so I'll do it again! Only this time...". Failing to do anything about his repeated behavior is only going to lead to more behavior, more serious behavior, more frequent behavior. The fact that the offender is the nephew of the owner is very problematic, but it is also a damned good reason to nip this behavior in the bud right now, before he becomes settled in the pattern, before he gains more power in the company, before he does this to others.

Czarcasm

04-21-2008, 11:11 AM

[Moderator Note]Anonymous suggestions of illegal violence isn't "macho"-it's juvenile posturing, at best. I don't want to see any more of it in this thread.[/Moderator Note]

HMS Irruncible

04-21-2008, 11:17 AM

Sure, but I think that in general, when men relate a problem to someone else, they consider that to be a solicitation for advice. Women tend to consider it to be a solicitation for sympathy and/or support.
I guess I have to disagree. I have never known a man to relate a problem as an implicit request for advice. It's true that when men are talking about problems, they often make an explicit request for advice, but that isn't always the case. Quite often it's just venting, explaining an irritable mood, or explaining the delay in some other task.

nashiitashii

04-21-2008, 11:17 AM

Sexual Harrassers feed on silence and passivity. Silence implies consent. "She didn't scream rape, so it must not bother her...so I'll do it again! Only this time...". Failing to do anything about his repeated behavior is only going to lead to more behavior, more serious behavior, more frequent behavior. The fact that the offender is the nephew of the owner is very problematic, but it is also a damned good reason to nip this behavior in the bud right now, before he becomes settled in the pattern, before he gains more power in the company, before he does this to others.

This is the point I was trying to get at in my previous post. It's not acceptable for her to be tolerating the behavior that's been witness to. It's not appropriate or acceptable for the owner's nephew to be doing this to anyone, let alone a fellow coworker, and what makes it even more unacceptable is because it's in a position that grants him more "defense" or "rights" than those who are unrelated to the owner of the company.

Skald, try to convince your wife to speak up for herself about the issue and take it to HR if she can't muster up the courage to tell this guy to go suck eggs when he's behaving inappropriately. All you can really do is encourage her to do what's right for herself so that nobody else has to go through this kind of treatment from the owner's nephew.

DrCube

04-21-2008, 11:47 AM

Seriously, has (nearly) everyone here lost their damned minds?

That's what I'm saying! You all have gone crazy!

I'm supposed to let my wife continue to be the victim of a sexual crime because she wants to 'deal with it her own way' and 'doesn't want to make a big deal out of it'?! Especially when said crime notoriously sucks all the self-esteem and hence willingness to fight back out of its victims? Not only, as nashiitashii pointed out, does sexual harassment feed off of inactivity, it fosters it.

If Mr. Rhymer doesn't take action, this crime will play itself completely out, until the perpetrator gets tired of it and moves on to other victims. The criminal will never be brought to justice and Mrs. Rhymer's life will be worse off because of it.

If it was any other crime, people would be horrified that someone let it occur without intervening. Harassment? Robbery? Assault? Rape? Murder? Tell me when, if ever, does it become acceptable to take action on behalf of a victim who doesn't (or can't) resist?

She told him about this for a reason. Ask yourself: Does she want the harassment to stop? If so, why is it unreasonable to stop it for her, preferably but not necessarily with her help, when she is unable or unwilling to stop it by herself?

ivylass

04-21-2008, 11:55 AM

Look, does she have a plan to deal with this or doesn't she? If her strategy is to keep a stiff upper lip and ignore him, that won't do. What he's doing is wrong, and she must call him on it.

I know it's scary. I know it could be messy. But for Og's sake, she can't be all I am Woman Hear Me Roar if she's not going to 1)Take steps to resolve the situation or 2)Ask for help from you, her soulmate, if needed.

She's in pain and needs help. She's refusing to let you help her. That's showing disrespect to you and the marriage.

You need to find out what she's doing to handle this.

DianaG

04-21-2008, 11:59 AM

:dubious:

DrCube, are you seriously comparing Mrs. Skald's situation to robbery, assault, rape and murder? Because let me put it in perspective for you. A guy at work is mean to her.

She can confront him. She can report him. She can quit.

It is her place to do one of these things. Because she is a grownup.

And are you really implying that she told Skald about this because she really wants him to take care of this for her? That's about the most infantilizing, insulting thing I can imagine thinking about a person.

Elendil's Heir

04-21-2008, 12:00 PM

Polite but firm complaints to management, well-documented, can ultimately lead to litigation and perhaps a very generous settlement from the company. Don't let this go. It's wrong, it's illegal, and it has to stop.

Kalhoun

04-21-2008, 12:02 PM

ivylass

04-21-2008, 12:12 PM

But she's not handling it. Her plan is to avoid him when she can and tolerate him when she can't.

That won't stop the situation. It's not a sign of weakness to ask for help.

Omega Glory

04-21-2008, 12:20 PM

It's not a sign of weakness to ask for help, but she hasn't asked for help. She's flat out said she doesn't want Skald's help.

Acid Lamp

04-21-2008, 12:24 PM

:dubious:

DrCube, are you seriously comparing Mrs. Skald's situation to robbery, assault, rape and murder? Because let me put it in perspective for you. A guy at work is mean to her.

She can confront him. She can report him. She can quit.

I'll see your smiley, and raise you a :dubious: of my own.

Sexual harassment of this type is way beyond "A guy at work is mean to her." From the OP he leaves pornographic materials on her desk, and makes lewd suggestions to the same. He makes racist comments, and obviously makes her feel horrible.

At minimum, that's sexual harassment, hate speech, and emotional abuse. I'm pretty damn liberal with what i'll tolerate, but that behavior fits every definition of the law, without stretching even a teensy bit.

It isn't a far cry to imagine that someone that obnoxious, and sexually fixated might not content himself with his fun and games and up the ante'. He needs to be reported, and while I agree that Skald doesn't need to ride to the rescue; he damn sure has a right to ask his wife to explain her lack of response.

HMS Irruncible

04-21-2008, 12:25 PM

It's not a sign of weakness to ask for help, but she hasn't asked for help. She's flat out said she doesn't want Skald's help.
Agreed, and she's gone so far as to conceal the situation from him. At the end of the day, she insists on handling it (or not) in her own way. Certainly you can't score any points by jumping in with guns blazing, knowing she's specifically avoided telling you because she fears you'd do just that.

I admit I'd have a hard time overlooking this if it were my wife. I suppose I'd ask frequently "Is it time to do something yet?" and find a way to cool my jets when she said 'no'. All you can really do is make it clear you're ready to support 100% for whatever she needs, whenever it's time, and you encourage her to take some kind of action.

Acid Lamp

04-21-2008, 12:26 PM

It's not a sign of weakness to ask for help, but she hasn't asked for help. She's flat out said she doesn't want Skald's help.

Neither has she explained why she is content to allow a co-worker to abuse her in this manner; and bring home the wreckage for Skald to deal with.

HMS Irruncible

04-21-2008, 12:29 PM

Neither has she explained why she is content to allow a co-worker to abuse her in this manner; and bring home the wreckage for Skald to deal with.
Point of order; she isn't "bringing home the wreckage". The OP clearly states that she concealed the problem because she was afraid of him overreacting. It's not her fault that a friend chose to spread the good cheer.

Zebra

04-21-2008, 12:29 PM

:dubious:

DrCube, are you seriously comparing Mrs. Skald's situation to robbery, assault, rape and murder? Because let me put it in perspective for you. A guy at work is mean to her.

She can confront him. She can report him. She can quit.

It is her place to do one of these things. Because she is a grownup.

And are you really implying that she told Skald about this because she really wants him to take care of this for her? That's about the most infantilizing, insulting thing I can imagine thinking about a person.

(bolding mine)

She isn't doing any of those things. She has chosed option 4, do nothing and let the stress of the continued situation affect all areas of my life, including my relationship with my husband.

thirdwarning

04-21-2008, 12:30 PM

I'm just curious here. There are several people suggesting that Skald take action if his wife doesn't. What is he supposed to do? File a complaint with HR at her workplace? Where he doesn't work, and doesn't have any standing. Take matters into his own hands and threaten or beat the offender? Or push his wife and keep pushing her until she takes the action he wants her to take? The first two of those are going to be either a bigger problem or make her job even more untenable than it already is. At work she needs to be herself, not his wife. She might not be handling this well (actually, I think she isn't handling it at all), but it's hers to handle. This isn't some guy who bothers her in a bar, or attacks her in a parking lot. In a social situation I'm fine if my husband wants to defend me against some jerk. But at work, I'm not his wife, I'm me. I need the people there to know I can do the job.

He needs to be supporting her so she can find or grow the strength to do what she should. That might include gentle suggestions of what she can try at work, and it should also include suggestions that letting this go won't make it better, but he can't do it for her. Help her to gain the ability (or backbone) to do this herself. Help her figure out why she doesn't want to. Make sure she knows that if she wants to leave there it's okay. But for crying out loud, don't undermine her at work. That other idiot is already taking care of that part.

DianaG

04-21-2008, 12:35 PM

(bolding mine)

She isn't doing any of those things. She has chosed option 4, do nothing and let the stress of the continued situation affect all areas of my life, including my relationship with my husband.
*shrug*

That's also her right. I don't see why she has less right to make him unhappy than he has to make her unhappy, which she has indicated his interference would do.

Zebra

04-21-2008, 12:37 PM

So does her right to make 'them' unhappy beat out his right to try and be happy?

DianaG

04-21-2008, 12:39 PM

Her right to handle her own business exceeds his right to interfere.

ivylass

04-21-2008, 12:48 PM

This isn't a business partnership, this is a marriage. You're supposed to be able to talk to your spouse about anything, to ask for help, to vent, to cry on their shoulder. Mrs. Skald seems to be shutting out her husband, and I'd like to know why. She's cheating him of the opportunity to be there for her, by not telling him about it in the first place and then telling him she'll handle it. It's obviously affecting her in a negative way, and I don't know about you, but when Ivylad falls flat on his ass, I don't stand around waiting for him to ask for help...I immediately leap to his side. He may be able to get up on his own, but he knows I'm there should he need to grab onto me.

Now, if I go to his side and he shoves me away (metaphorically speaking of course) then that's a problem. This isn't some minor disagreement with a co-worker...this guy is being an ass of the purest water and Mrs. Skald isn't availing herself of her husband's expertise to handle it. She doesn't have to do this by herself. That's the whole point.

Kalhoun

04-21-2008, 12:56 PM

DianaG

04-21-2008, 01:01 PM

She doesn't have to do this by herself. That's the whole point.
But she still can, if she wants to, right?

Because if "the whole point" of marriage is that I never get to make a decision by myself for the rest of my life, thank god I skipped it. Fuck that noise.

nashiitashii

04-21-2008, 01:02 PM

Her right to handle her own business exceeds his right to interfere.
And she has every right to ruin her relationship by behaving stupidly about the whole situation.

OtakuLoki

04-21-2008, 01:05 PM

I disagree with all the advice that comes down to Skald should try to find some way to work an end run around his wife's desire to handle this on her own. People have to be allowed to make their own mistakes.

But I also would like to have some sense that she does have a plan that has a hope of working. Ignoring it, and letting the harassment drive her loony is not that. If she's having to take breaks in the car to cry from this, it's affecting her mental health.

I think that what Skald should be doing, at this point, is simply listening to his wife, and asking questions about what she thinks she should do. It's frustrating as Hell, and painful to watch, I know. But, until she decides to do something on her own, it's going to keep going.

The only way for this plan to work, though, is if Skald can sit patiently until she talks about the situation again - let her bring it up, not for him to keep pressing the issue himself. A lot of people, even when they might begin to think that they're on a bad road will resist changing direction or tactics if someone is pushing them too hard.

Dung Beetle

04-21-2008, 01:06 PM

When I started to go into my HR spiel, she asked me to please let her deal with it her way; it's something she thinks she needs to do, she says.

Bolding mine. Give the lady a chance, for pete's sake! She hasn't gotten off to a good start, but it sounds to me like she wants to make a change. You refer to something of the sort in her past. Resolving this herself would be a really good thing for her.

emmaliminal

04-21-2008, 01:10 PM

Seems like several responders here are forgetting how this kind of problem usually comes with plenty of subtle complexities.

It sounds to me like you know that you can't do anything on behalf of your wife. It sounds like you're being realistic and asking what you can do to intervene with your wife, not with her workplace or her harasser, for practical reasons (her employer has no reason to listen to a non-employee), legal and ethical reasons (baseball bats = prison, hell, etc.), and personal reasons (she has a right to decide what to do for herself). So are you really asking what you can do, if anything, to change her mind?

Am I right that you and she have talked about this just the one time? When I started to go into my HR spiel, she asked me to please let her deal with it her way; it's something she thinks she needs to do, she says.I'm wondering if a different kind of conversation might be more useful -- the kind where you emphasize that you think she deserves to be treated with respect, hate knowing she has to deal with this, want her to know you'll back her no matter what, want to be involved in her life... instead of offering (perfectly reasonable) solutions. None of that Mars/Venus crap, but if offering solutions wasn't well received, it only make sense to try the alternative.

Also, how much time has gone by since you found out about it, or since it started? When I've had to deal with workplace crap, it's taken a while to make sure I've got all the information I need to make a decision -- which person at HR is best to go to? Have lawsuits been tried in the past? Did they work? There's a difference between doing what you have a right to do or what you're supposed to do, and doing what will actually have the effect you want. Also, if she truly believes there's nothing she can do that will be effective, it may take a while to reconcile herself with that and choose a path of action.

ivylass

04-21-2008, 01:26 PM

But she still can, if she wants to, right?

If she's going to take steps to resolve the situation on her own (besides of course, trying to ignore the idjit and pretend it's not happening) then, yes. But if she's going to sit like a little mouse and cry in the car on the way home, that's not resolving the situation. This guy is hurting her, and it's not fair to ask a loved one to stand idly by while someone hurts you.

If you're not going take steps to fix the situation, you don't get to bitch about it.

Since Skald just started this yesterday, I'm willing to wait and see if the missus takes proactive steps to get this resolved on her own. But I stand by my point...she can't sit in the corner with her fingers in her ears singing lalalalalalalala and call that "dealing with it."

t-bonham@scc.net

04-21-2008, 01:28 PM

Some further information, please.
Is this nephew married?

If so, somehow getting word of this situation to his wife may be a way of dealing with it without getting the company HR, lawsuits, etc. involved.

Polerius

04-21-2008, 01:37 PM

BlinkingDuck

04-21-2008, 01:41 PM

What? You were in HR and you don't know how to document harrassment? Maybe I'm missing something here.!

Take copious notes. M/D/Y/H/M/S. What was said, what was implied, what actions were taken. It is called building a case.

I'm a guy and I can pretty much figure out what would get me in deep, deep trouble. This is not rocket science.

The standard procedure for this is thus:

Assuming you don't get him fired AND he has 2 brain cells. He will weather the storm...and wait. He will never forget what 'YOU' did to him (nm that he really deserved it). No...YOU tried to get him fired. YOU publically and professionally tried to embarass him. He won't want to look like he is trying to retaliate...so he waits...

While he is waiting, he can peck at you a little bit depending on his position of power in the company. Maybe no raises or lesser raise for all in your department (going after just you leaves him open to possibility of accusation of retaliation).

He may get promoted and even have more power in the future. Even so, he will remember...and will remember forever.

Eventually you will make a mistake...a serious one that everyone does at least a few times in their career. Others would be scolded and retained. However, YOURS will just be SO TERRIBLE that you just have to be fired. Or - when the company needs to layoff he finds a way to make sure the axe falls on you than someone else. During this whole time he subtley badmouths you to colleagues in the industry (who have no knowledge of the sexual harrassment filed against him) so when you do look for another job you get the feeling something is 'wrong'.

{why yes...I have seen this happen. To my wife actually. However, I think it makes sense - if it was me who was the scumbag...that's what I would do.}

Maeglin

04-21-2008, 01:45 PM

But she still can, if she wants to, right?

Because if "the whole point" of marriage is that I never get to make a decision by myself for the rest of my life, thank god I skipped it. Fuck that noise.

This is just a reduction to the absurd.

As a husband and provider, I get to make plenty of decisions for myself. I do not get to make decisions that affect both of us unilaterally. If I found myself in a situation where my work is systematically eroding my mental health and my private life, my wife would expect me to resolve the problem in an active way and not allow it to sabotage our home life.

Low expectations of one's spouse in these kinds of situations is just as infantilizing as trying to solve the problem for her.

Cheesesteak

04-21-2008, 01:46 PM

But she still can, if she wants to, right?If she wants to, she can challenge the guy to a knife fight. A husband should be there to suggest that an alternative solution is available.Because if "the whole point" of marriage is that I never get to make a decision by myself for the rest of my life, thank god I skipped it. Fuck that noise.The whole point is that you're not forced to handle it alone, you have someone who's willing to go to bat for you. In this case, a person with workplace harassment experience is willing to help the person being harassed in the workplace. Seems to me that I would have mentioned it the very first time it happened, trusting that my beloved wasn't going to jump the guy with a tire iron, and would offer constructive advice instead.

Kalhoun

04-21-2008, 01:46 PM

This may be a really big underlying issue for her. Maybe she wants to try to handle it on her own, mistakes and all. Maybe this has been a problem for her all her life (standing up for herself) and she has to come to the answer in her own way. She needs to be allowed to work it out for herself.

Adolf Oliver Bush

04-21-2008, 01:51 PM

I haven't read the whole thread, but is the asshole supervisor married?

His wife might be interested to know that her husband is sexually harassing an employee.

A slightly less malevolent route would be to have extremely explicit man-on man (or man-on-man-on-man) porn mags sent anonymously to his home...with an accompanying note encouraging him to use them for inspiration in his own bedroom.

HongKongFooey

04-21-2008, 02:03 PM

beanpod

04-21-2008, 02:05 PM

ivylass and nashiitashii both said it far better than I could. emilyforce also has some very good points. That's my perspective, given that I'm a woman who could very clearly picture herself in a situation like that (being intimidated and unsure of how to deal with it and annoyed at myself because of my own insecurities.) It's this stupid little voice in my head that says if I don't deal with it all on my own then I will be acting like a weak child. In the past few years, I've gotten far better at letting myself ask for help when I need it and at realizing that if someone thinks I'm weak willed for asking for help, then that person is an idiot. Even if that person is me.

I kind of have a weird outlook on things though. If your wife is like me, (generally timid, tends to avoid conflict, really wishes she didn't do that, and is trying to get herself to stop it) I really think you should consider those three posters' opinions.

On the other hand, if she's just shocked but will soon begin assembling evidence to slap the bastard with, well, DianaG and OtakuLoki are probably on the money. Step back and let her do it, in that case. You know your wife best.

NurseCarmen

04-21-2008, 02:29 PM

I would at least encourage her to document everything, and depending on the laws of your state, record incidents with a hidden tape recorder. If she seems reluctant, tell her to read some of the judgments on this (http://www.employerspublications.com/judge.html) website.

You might have an important decision to make once she decides to approach it that way. Should you go to the Bahamas or to Europe with some of the settlement money?

Arnold Winkelried

04-21-2008, 02:56 PM

Arnold Winkelried

04-21-2008, 03:01 PM

To the OP - you shouldn't go over to your wife's office and lodge the complaint for her. She's an adult (I presume) and should handle her work situation herself. What I would be trying to help her figure out is, why is she afraid to lodge a complaint with HR, why she prefers to go sit and cry in her car instead of confronting sexual harassment at work, and, if she is unable to deal with it, why she should keep on working there. Of course, if she insists on shutting you out and telling you that it's none of your business, then that is her privilege too.

ratatoskK

04-21-2008, 03:12 PM

I'll just add my voice to those who have said you should do something about it. First give her a couple of weeks of advice and hope she decides to deal with it herself. If she doesn't then somebody has to stop the situation. She's crying in her car every day for God's sake. That is not a symptom of dealing with it, it's a symptom of needing help.

p.s. I'm female and normally would not want someone to solve my problems for me, just so you know where I'm coming from. But if I were in her situation, then after it's all over, retrospectively, I would be very thankful that you stepped in and helped.

She just sounds totally traumatized and unable to make a rational decision at this time.

Really Not All That Bright

04-21-2008, 03:24 PM

:dubious:

DrCube, are you seriously comparing Mrs. Skald's situation to robbery, assault, rape and murder? Because let me put it in perspective for you. A guy at work is mean to her.
Where, exactly, would you draw the line? Repeated unwanted invitations for sex?Unwanted physical contact? Unwanted intimate physical contact? Guess what the next one is...

I think it's pretty clear from the OP that this has been going on for some time. Several months, perhaps. It should be equally clear, then, that his wife's way of "dealing with it by herself" is to do what she was already doing - sit in her car and cry.

Call an employment lawyer. Make an appointment for a consultation. Beg wife to attend so she at least understands her rights.

Reevaluate afterward. (the initial consult should be free, incidentally)

DianaG

04-21-2008, 03:55 PM

Where, exactly, would you draw the line? Repeated unwanted invitations for sex?Unwanted physical contact? Unwanted intimate physical contact?
Repeated unwanted invitations for sex? _BIG_FUCKING_LINE_ Unwanted physical contact?

See, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Really Not All That Bright

04-21-2008, 03:59 PM

See, that wasn't so hard, was it?
Well, if you insist. But I think you're wrong.

DianaG

04-21-2008, 04:00 PM

Repeated, unwanted invitations for sex are an annoyance. Unwanted physical contact is assault. This is not a fine line.

Really Not All That Bright

04-21-2008, 04:03 PM

Repeated, unwanted invitations for sex are an annoyance. Unwanted physical contact is assault. This is not a fine line.
You genuinely believe that everything is okay up to physical contact?

DianaG

04-21-2008, 04:06 PM

Sigh. Not okay, just not in the same league as assault.

FTR, I'm not saying that Mrs. Skald is handling this situation particularly well. I'd certainly handle it differently. What I am saying is that it's her situation to handle, however she sees fit.

I encourage Skald to let her know what he would do, and what she can do. And then leave it alone. Because the idea that anyone's spouse should interfere in their professional life is baffling to me.

Arnold Winkelried

04-21-2008, 04:09 PM

Repeated unwanted invitations for sex? _BIG_FUCKING_LINE_ Unwanted physical contact?

See, that wasn't so hard, was it?Well, if the big line separating unwanted invitations for sex and unwanted physical contact includes fucking, then yes, it does seem hard to me (hard to understand is what I mean!)

HongKongFooey

04-21-2008, 04:10 PM

From the OP: Consequently he's been sexually harassing her, in the hostile-work-environment-sense: he's asked her invasive questions about her sex life, he suggests porn movies she might enjoy, he leaves sex mags on her desk. More than once he's kept at her until she was reduced to tears.
He doesn't mention physical contact nor crying in her car every day. DianaG isn't suggesting letting it go rather supporting the wife in what she decides (correct me if I'm wrong).

Maeglin

04-21-2008, 04:11 PM

Repeated, unwanted invitations for sex are an annoyance. Unwanted physical contact is assault. This is not a fine line.

Is this opinion based on the laws in your jurisdiction? If it's just your personal opinion, it is of dubious interest and relevance.

astro

04-21-2008, 04:36 PM

Sigh. Not okay, just not in the same league as assault.

Again you draw these hypothetical bright lines, and refuse to consider that these things often play out in the real world in very slippery slope fashion. People who harass women don't usually go from double entendres and risque emails or dropped porn to grabbing their breasts and bending them over the desk. A too close brush against her breasts in the hallway, a casual un-asked for shoulder massage rub, coming up behind a woman and getting way too close to her backside, invading her personal space when the opportunity presents itself. Where's the specific point at which you're going to cry "Assault! Assault!" without you looking like a hysterical ass hat?

Men with any common sense know how a predatory oaf like this operates, and that's why the emphasis (from husbands and male SO's) is on nipping it in the bud ASAP. Women who adopt the attitude that "It's not a real problem until he actually comes after me" are being complicit in their continued harassment.

Finally, and I say this to you and everyone else who keeps saying , "It's HER problem not her husband's, so he needs to back off!" If a man knows his wife is being emotionally terrorized it IS his problem on a very fundamental level. Men and women may be wired differently, but very few men who love their wives and SOs are going to listen to a tale of physical or emotional intimidation of their spouses without getting geared up to do something about it. Winding them up with tales of your mistreatment, and then telling them via words or actions, that you intend to do virtually nothing about the problem is an impossible situation for a man to be in.

zweisamkeit

04-21-2008, 04:57 PM

Mods, I hope this is okay. If not, please just warn me, not ban me!

crazyjoe read your thread, Skald, and wanted to say something. Unfortunately his membership has expired (as he mentions) and wanted to give advice. He asked me to post it for him. I would have emailed you instead, but it's not listed for me to do so.

Hello,

I am a lapsed member of the SDMB, with hopes of rejoining once it’s free, and I happened upon your thread about your wife’s harassment. Looks like all sorts of advice flying around there….typical doperism when emotions get high, I guess.

First, let me start by saying I sympathize deeply with your position, and understand how impotent it must make you feel to watch your wife be hurt without a lot of recourse for yourself. That being said, from your posts you have generally positioned yourself as a thoughtful and sensitive man with a lot of intelligence and feeling. I think that you may have already reached some of the conclusions I am about to put forth, and put them into practice. But since I can’t just sit back and assume such a thing for such an awful situation, I felt the need to offer my advice.

First and foremost I would broach the subject with your wife again. The when and exactly how is going to be up to you, but you will want to do it in a non-hostile way. You need to let her know that the HULK SMASH eraction you had at first has given way to logic and reason, as it always will, but that your initial reaction was instinctive and visceral. Now you’re ready to let her know how awful her situation sounds, and how sad it makes you to hear what she has to deal with and how sad it s making her feel. At this stage, I recommend lots of hugging, if she’ll have it.

Next you have to move on and address another issue, which is the fact that she didn’t feel comfortable talking to you about this. Let her know you understand her hesitance, especially given your initial reaction, but tell her that the most important thing for you is that she feel comfortable telling you about things that affect her, no matter how awful. Let her know that you PROMISE not to overreact or act without her approval about things, and that in the future, you will try to keep your initial rage under more control. Let her know that you got married to her because you wanted to share your life with her, both good and bad, and that she would expect no less of you were something going on.

Once she seems to trust you about this, and she is in a comfort zone (most likely on a different day) then you begin with the small steps. If she is sharing things with you, write them down with dates. Then gently suggest that she do the same, just so that when she does figure out her course of action, she has more options open to her. Let her know that you are confident in her ability to handle the problem, and that there are other places she can turn for support (local support groups, etc) if she feels like she just can’t talk to you about it because it’s too embarrassing/maddening/you can’t identify with her problems.

Most of all your wife needs to feel loved, not further belittled. On that, the dopers are right. But doing nothing is not the right action either. You need to be patient enough to hopefully get her to a place where she can deal with it. Let no one place the responsibility for this jerk’s behavior to your wife or to others on your wife. His actions are his responsibility. If she was not able to defend herself properly and “bring him to justice” as has been proclaimed, that is not her fault. She is not a foot soldier in the war against harassment. She’s a victim. With time, you may be able to get her to fight back. Good luck!

Joe

Magiver

04-21-2008, 04:58 PM

Skald the Rhymer, men tend to be problem solvers when situations are brought to their attention. Which is why your wife didn't bring this to your attention. She know's you'd want to fix it or advise her how to fix it. Put the shoe on the other foot. If you worked for an asshole would you want your wife to fix it? Your support should be passive as in, "honey, I support you in whatever you decide to do". You can explain your feelings to her so she knows it's the nature of men to want to protect their mate. Yah, we're a bunch of club swinging cave men.

Cat Whisperer

04-21-2008, 05:09 PM

<snip>

Finally, and I say this to you and everyone else who keeps saying , "It's HER problem not her husband's, so he needs to back off!" If a man knows his wife is being emotionally terrorized it IS his problem on a very fundamental level. Men and women may be wired differently, but very few men who love their wives and SOs are going to listen to a tale of physical or emotional intimidation of their spouses without getting geared up to do something about it. Winding them up with tales of your mistreatment, and then telling them via words or actions, that you intend to do virtually nothing about the problem is an impossible situation for a man to be in.
But as thirdwarning so accurately pointed out, what exactly are you going to do about it? Go to your wife's place of employment and wait outside for the jerk to come out, and then give him a stern talking-to and/or beat him up? Report him to HR on behalf of your wife? If my husband went to my work and had a talk with someone harassing me or beat them up, our next step would be marriage counselling to find out what the hell is wrong with him - adults just don't do that. We don't live in a Jerry Springer show.

That said, I do understand what a bunch of y'all are saying - I have a responsibility to not let myself get hurt too much, too, for my own sake as well as my husband's, and that's where Skald's wife is apparently falling down.

DianaG

04-21-2008, 05:40 PM

Again you draw these hypothetical bright lines, and refuse to consider that these things often play out in the real world in very slippery slope fashion. People who harass women don't usually go from double entendres and risque emails or dropped porn to grabbing their breasts and bending them over the desk. A too close brush against her breasts in the hallway, a casual un-asked for shoulder massage rub, coming up behind a woman and getting way too close to her backside, invading her personal space when the opportunity presents itself. Where's the specific point at which you're going to cry "Assault! Assault!" without you looking like a hysterical ass hat?
And again, I personally would have made my extreme displeasure at his behavior known to both him and HR sometime around "double entendres and risque emails", but that doesn't change the fact that double entendres and risque emails are an annoyance, that a big girl knows full well how to handle. I simply assume that Skald's wife is a big girl. Invasion of personal space in any way is a more serious problem, and again, one I personally wouldn't stand for, but I'm willing to trust Skald's wife to handle her own problems.

Men with any common sense know how a predatory oaf like this operates, and that's why the emphasis (from husbands and male SO's) is on nipping it in the bud ASAP. Women who adopt the attitude that "It's not a real problem until he actually comes after me" are being complicit in their continued harassment.
As opposed to us silly women, who just aren't smart enough to know when we need saving? Who said it wasn't a real problem? All I said was that it's HER problem.

Finally, and I say this to you and everyone else who keeps saying , "It's HER problem not her husband's, so he needs to back off!" If a man knows his wife is being emotionally terrorized it IS his problem on a very fundamental level. Men and women may be wired differently, but very few men who love their wives and SOs are going to listen to a tale of physical or emotional intimidation of their spouses without getting geared up to do something about it. Winding them up with tales of your mistreatment, and then telling them via words or actions, that you intend to do virtually nothing about the problem is an impossible situation for a man to be in.
I submit that any person who loves their spouse would find this a difficult situation to be in. Reign in your testosterone long enough to consider that this isn't about the gender of the people involved, it's about respecting your spouse enough to trust his or her assessment of the situation, and competence to handle it.

I'll ask again, if your wife took it upon herself to intrude into your professional life, how would you feel about that? I'm guessing belittled, insulted, and generally disrespected.

fruitbat

04-21-2008, 05:45 PM

astro

04-21-2008, 05:45 PM

But as thirdwarning so accurately pointed out, what exactly are you going to do about it? Go to your wife's place of employment and wait outside for the jerk to come out, and then give him a stern talking-to and/or beat him up? Report him to HR on behalf of your wife? If my husband went to my work and had a talk with someone harassing me or beat them up, our next step would be marriage counselling to find out what the hell is wrong with him - adults just don't do that. We don't live in a Jerry Springer show.

That said, I do understand what a bunch of y'all are saying - I have a responsibility to not let myself get hurt too much, too, for my own sake as well as my husband's, and that's where Skald's wife is apparently falling down.

We don't live in a Jerry Springer show, we also don't live in a world where relationships maintain their viability if one partner determines unilaterally that they are tacitly agreeable to be sexually harassed in order to to keep a job.

The "What are you going to do?" option is to take action to stop the harassment, or leave that place of employment. Unless you are literally going to miss your next meal without that job, an SO deciding they would rather be sexually harassed and terrorized than look for a new job is not (IMO) a situation where a relationship is going to maintain it's long term viability, unless the husband is into the notion of having his wife abused and intimidated by other men in her workplace.

If you are a married women being sexually harassed at work, and choose to relate this information to your husband, the "I'm just going to hunker down and take it, but you can comfort me when I cry about it" option is off the table as soon as you relate this information to him. Some women seem to think that they can relate a situation like this to their husband, and he's supposed to act like their girlfriend.

DianaG

04-21-2008, 05:55 PM

IThis is where I find Diana's argument so frustrating. She has changed the terms of the debate by bypassing the facts. Skald isn't going to his wife's workplace, he isn't doing anything on her behalf except to attempt to advise and support her. The fact that she refuses to listen to that advice and wants to wallow in her misery instead is a real problem. I think I would be most upset if she refused to even document this person's behavior. Imagine a few months down the road when she finally stands up for herself and no one believes her because she misremembers a couple of things that his lawyer picks apart and she has no other evidence to back her claim.
Actually, the facts are that he just found out, and he doesn't know yet what she's going to do.

For the record, I've never assumed that Skald intended to do any of the incredibly silly things he's been advised to do in this thread. My arguments are against the silly things, not Skald.

ivylass

04-21-2008, 06:22 PM

I'll ask again, if your wife took it upon herself to intrude into your professional life, how would you feel about that?

But it's perfectly okay for her to let her professional life have a negative impact on her marriage?

Diana, you've mentioned above you're a happily single lady. I presume your perspective is coming from your independence, your attitude that no one is going to fight your battles for you. And that is admirable. But married people are a unit, and when one person is in trouble, the other person is too. And it must be incredibly frustrating to see the person you love in trouble and know they're unwilling (so far) to do anything about it or let you help them.

Rubystreak

04-21-2008, 07:20 PM

We don't live in a Jerry Springer show, we also don't live in a world where relationships maintain their viability if one partner determines unilaterally that they are tacitly agreeable to be sexually harassed in order to to keep a job.

I agree with you. If my husband worked in a place where a woman was regularly inappropriate with him in a sexual way, and he seemed upset but refused to do anything, I would become upset too. I would very much want him to take action against the woman, to end the harassment. But if he refused to do so, what could I really do? I could confront the woman myself, but that would make me look like a psycho harridan, no? He's a grown man. I would, I feel, be entering into the territory of inappropriate myself, and I'd make my husband look like a wimp who sends his wife in to handle his problems. I don't think reversing the genders affects this negative impression any. Skald's wife would look weak and pathetic if Skald stepped in (and he seems to know this).

So, what would I realistically be able to do? I really don't know. And I ask you, astro, what you would do that wouldn't make you look like the psycho overprotective husband of a passive wife? All you can do is extert as much pressure on your spouse as you reasonably can to get him/her to do it himself. I don't see any other option that doesn't enter the realm of CrazyTown.

If you are a married women being sexually harassed at work, and choose to relate this information to your husband, the "I'm just going to hunker down and take it, but you can comfort me when I cry about it" option is off the table as soon as you relate this information to him. Some women seem to think that they can relate a situation like this to their husband, and he's supposed to act like their girlfriend.

Is it different for a man who is sexually harassed at work? If I told my husband about an equivalent situation, I'd want him to psyche me up to handle it myself, tell me it's going work out OK, etc. A little comfort, a little motivation, a little support, some venting, which for me would result in action probably immediately afterward.

Is it possible, Skald, that you and your wife could have a big convo about this wherein you can convince her to deal with it?

Really Not All That Bright

04-21-2008, 07:54 PM

Is it different for a man who is sexually harassed at work? If I told my husband about an equivalent situation, I'd want him to psyche me up to handle it myself, tell me it's going work out OK, etc. A little comfort, a little motivation, a little support, some venting, which for me would result in action probably immediately afterward.
Obviously, that would be ideal. The sense I get quite clearly, though, is that this has been taking place for quite some time, and she hasn't been able to (or hasn't wanted to) deal with it on her own.

Also, what ivy said.

olivesmarch4th

04-21-2008, 08:04 PM

Hi, I'm late to the party, and I wanted to say something. It could be totally off, but whatever.

I'm getting the vibe from the OP and the wife's way of ''handling'' things that she has some kind of previous history of being sexually violated in some way. If she has some kind of trauma about this, I think there's a really good chance she's not sticking up for herself out of fear and even shame.

I think the idea that it's not okay for you, Skald, to intervene, is wrong. I think it's wrong because the marriage affects you, this guy's jackassery affects your marriage, and even if you are doing nothing for her, you have a right to do it for your own interests--even if your own interests include your wife not getting hurt on a regular basis by some asshole who finds her easy to victimize.

I think especially if she has some kind of underlying history making this difficult for her, her own perceptions about what's right or how she should deal with it could be warped. Call it infantalizing, call it whatever the fuck you want. But a few months ago I had a guy coming into my apartment making moves on me and I didn't feel, deep down, safe enough to say ''no.'' It's like that part of me is broken, for whatever reason. I realize that's my problem and I need to grow up, whatever--but in that moment I just wanted out and didn't see an escape.

So I posted for advice on this board. And almost every single person responding on this very board said, ironically enough, ''You need to get your husband on that shit.'' And I did. And it worked. He didn't break the guy's nose, he just walked over there and said, ''I know what you're trying to do and it's not cool. Don't come over again or I'll call the police.'' I've never seen him since.

And I'm not saying you should do anything without discussing it with your wife first, or that you should be acting like her parent instead of her husband. But sitting down with her and saying, ''Look, you're wrong about this, and even if you aren't, it's hurting me to watch you go through it, therefore I must do something if you won't. Now let's figure out what that something is going to be.''

I think that's totally okay. It's your life too, and right now that sleazeball is hurting someone you love.

Geek Mecha

04-21-2008, 08:07 PM

The OP is fucked no matter what. He can interfere and infantilize his wife and go against her explicitly-stated wishes, or he can stand by and do nothing except listen and be understanding, which is going to become impossible at some point in the near future.

The truth is, nothing Skald does will make much difference until his wife starts defending herself. Take the most irrational, illogical, or impractical solutions you can think of and have Skald do them all, but none of it will amount to anything until she grows a spine. Skald can't see this through to any satisfying solution without her stepping up. If all she is able to do is sit there and take it, then Skald doesn't have much choice but to sit there and take it too.

But Mrs. R. doesn't want to do that. Partly it's because this miserable fuckwit is the owner's nephew; partly because she's a little odd when it comes to standing up for herself in this context, for reasons I won't discuss here.
Whatever it is that is keeping her from standing up for herself, she needs to deal with it now, because it is no longer affecting just her anymore. It's affecting you and your marriage. It is not fair of her to tell you what is going on and do nothing to stop it and then expect you to do nothing except play Supportive Husband.

Rubystreak

04-21-2008, 08:27 PM

I guess I'm really shocked that anyone thinks a spouse should enter a professional workplace and address a workplace issue that their spouse is too fucked up to deal with. I can't imagine how that would go well for the abused partner. The HR department would likely tell the husband to go home and mind his own business, right? The wife would look really bad, and it would likely compound her humiliation. She might also be forced to deal with the situation right then, in a way she's not ready for that makes it worse for her.

I agree it's very hard to watch your spouse suffer when you can't do anything, but this is a workplace issue and should be handled in the workplace by the employee, not the spouse. There are mechanisms in place for dealing with these things, and if those don't work? Sue. Quit. Something. One would think that, if Skald tells his wife that it is simply unacceptable for his wife to put up with this, she'll understand that something needs to be done. I cannot believe that she is incapable of dealing with this in any way.

Now if this asshole called her at home, or came to her house, then her husband could intervene (answer the phone/door) because it's his house too and it has now stepped out of the workplace into the realm of stalking. But I'd also call the police at that point.

fruitbat

04-21-2008, 08:57 PM

I guess I'm really shocked that anyone thinks a spouse should enter a professional workplace and address a workplace issue that their spouse is too fucked up to deal with. I can't imagine how that would go well for the abused partner. The HR department would likely tell the husband to go home and mind his own business, right? The wife would look really bad, and it would likely compound her humiliation. She might also be forced to deal with the situation right then, in a way she's not ready for that makes it worse for her.

This is getting really strange. Unless I am missing something I don't think a single person has advocated that position, yet that is what everyone is arguing against. I would tell my wife that letting this situation destroy her mental health while she does nothng to stand up for herself is a lousy solution. I would be there to help in any way possible, but not confronting this issue isn't a solution. I don't think advocating for my spouse to stand up for herself and take steps to keep our marriage emotionally healthy is infantalizing.

In short if she says her solution is to say nothing and hope it gets better then I am going to do anything I can to help her come up with a better solution because that isn't going to work and isn't going to make anyone happy.

Rubystreak

04-21-2008, 09:07 PM

This is getting really strange. Unless I am missing something I don't think a single person has advocated that position, yet that is what everyone is arguing against.

I see numerous people who say the husband should intervene and do something. No one past the the Mod intervention has advocated violence, and no one will get specific, but astro and olives are certainly saying the husband should do something more than just talk to his wife. What form would this intervention take? No one will say. But I think anything beyond talking to her is out of line.

If I'm reading this wrong then I apologize.

shamrock227

04-21-2008, 09:31 PM

I admit I only skimmed from halfway down the 2nd page so someone may have already brought this up...

Skald, isn't this the same girl who when you were in the middle of asking another woman out came up to you and made loud, inappropriate comments about you trying to get into both of their pants? And, effectively blocked your attempts to ask this other woman out? (among other brazen things which I'm not about to start looking for right now...) This is the same woman, right?

My point being (yes, I do have one) you did not marry some shy, retiring, demure little girl. You married a chick with a set of big brass ones.

Why, seemingly out of nowhere, is she reduced to this "crying in the car, can't tell my husband, let people take advantage of me" girl? It seems wildly out of character for her. From the bits and pieces I've picked up from you about her I'd expect her to tell him to fuck off and leave her alone (or something similar).

I think you should try to get to the bottom of that -- that may shed some light on why she won't take action and won't accept your help or advice. If she won't speak to you about it maybe a therapist for a session or two? It just seems like she's got to get something off her chest before she can work up the gumption to deal with this jackass.

You both have my sympathies - I've been there and it sucks.

MLS

04-21-2008, 10:48 PM

I've been trying to put myself in thewife's shoes. What would I do, and what would I want my husband to do, if something nasty like that happened to me? The first thing that comes to my mind is that my husband would be one of, if not the first person I'd tell. We share stuff, and we are there to help each other. Why would I not talk to him first, if not for advice, then at least for comfort and sympathy?

I don't know you or your wife, obviously, or anything about your relationship besides what you've said here. Perhaps you might think about why she did not share this with you before you found out from a third party. Perhaps you should sit down with her and ask her that question, kindly and with no accusations or animosity. Ask her if there is something about the way you treat her, or about your relationship, or about you yourself that caused her to not want to tell you about something so distressing that it frequently leads her to tears.

If it were not this situation, but some other distressing event, would she tell you? How about if she got bad news at a medical checkup? If she had gotten arrested for something she didn't do? If she'd had a car accident that wasn't her fault? Would she tell you if her purse was stolen? If the answer to those is yes, why was she reluctant to tell you about this creep at work?

The two of you, or the two of you plus a trusted third party might want to use this as a starting point for understanding each other better and improving your relationship.

Mesquite-oh

04-21-2008, 11:33 PM

I find this discussion both fascinating and a bit bizzarre. I never got the feeling that Skald was considering acting on his wife's behalf, yet that became the default assumption and the center of debate in the thread. Ultimately his wife will have to be responsible for any action she takes in dealing with her employer. The problem is her unwillingness to talk about the problem, or take any action that might make things better.

This is where I find Diana's argument so frustrating. She has changed the terms of the debate by bypassing the facts. Skald isn't going to his wife's workplace, he isn't doing anything on her behalf except to attempt to advise and support her. The fact that she refuses to listen to that advice and wants to wallow in her misery instead is a real problem. I think I would be most upset if she refused to even document this person's behavior. Imagine a few months down the road when she finally stands up for herself and no one believes her because she misremembers a couple of things that his lawyer picks apart and she has no other evidence to back her claim.I agree, this thread is both bizarre and interesting just because it has more miscommunication, more selective listening, and more false assumptions of motivations than any thread I have read recently (and unfortunately Diana, you seem to be in the center of it).

I almost feel like I need to do a primer of sorts to help everyone speak the same language and have the ability to communicate! Ex: "I think that the husband should do something" DOES NOT mean that he should treat her like a child, that he should be paternal, that he has too much testosterone, that he should go down to her office and do it himself, that he should tell her exactly what to do, that he should physically intervene, ect. ect. That statement simply means "I think that the husband should do something."

Chimera

04-22-2008, 12:20 AM

At the very bottom of every negative work situation, you have to ask yourself whether or not being fired would be worse than maintaining the same situation. If the answer is no, meaning that being fired would be better than having to live with the situation continuing, then you have nothing to lose by seeking to put an end to it, no matter what the other party might say, do or threaten. Because the "worst" that can happen is an end to the painful situation and an opportunity to find something better.

I went through this on my last job. My new supervisor was such a lying piece of shit that just before a big meeting with him, I went out and bought a $35 digital voice recorder. After checking to make sure that yes, doing so is legal and admissible in court. In the end, management closed ranks, declared ME to be the liar, and fired me. I have a 69 minute recording of him saying all the things he later declared to upper management that he'd never said at all. But I'm still unemployed.

That being said, I wear my termination like a badge of honor. I'm happy to have been fired by people (all retired police officers) who have no personal integrity, because I could not continue to work for people I no longer trusted or respected. I'm seriously happy that I no longer have to work in that toilet of an environment.

The prospect of being fired can seem like the end of the world. It isn't.

Skald's wife is going through something far more difficult and personally horrific than what I went through. On the other hand, if she had the equivalent recorded information that I had on my boss, she could sue that company to the end of time. Sexual Harassment is not an innocent office past-time. It is violation.

Like Mesquite-oh says, there's far too many indignant false assumptions in the thread on the part of those who think sympathy is more valuable than action. Sympathy doesn't get the washing up done.

Given the lying sociopath my ex-wife was, there would be no way that I could trust that she wasn't making the whole thing up to gain sympathy. That's the way she worked. (She routinely told me lies about other people being mean to her or saying bad things about me in order to create a mutually sympathetic "us against them" environment.) But that's my history.

If I was married to a more normal person, there would be no way that I could stand back and do nothing. No, that doesn't mean violence, it doesn't mean marching into the company, it doesn't mean humiliating her in any way. It means working to find solutions to the problem, it means communicating with my wife about what is happening, how she feels about it, why she is hellbent on handling it herself, why she seems to be frozen with fear and incapable of taking action. It means supporting her, helping her to gain the strength and insight to take constructive action. It might mean marriage counselling or exploring the idea that she might use some personal therapy. It might mean helping her plan a strategy to gain a chain of evidence without being obvious about it. It might mean helping her look for another job. At a bit more direct, it might involve me coming to see her at work, not for any particular purpose other than BEING SEEN.

In short, there are a great many things that Skald can do without showing up at the office guns blazing, without causing injury to his wife. Assuming otherwise only shows the limitations and mentality of the one making the assumptions.

Cat Whisperer

04-22-2008, 12:33 AM

I<snip> Ex: "I think that the husband should do something" DOES NOT mean that he should treat her like a child, that he should be paternal, that he has too much testosterone, that he should go down to her office and do it himself, that he should tell her exactly what to do, that he should physically intervene, ect. ect. That statement simply means "I think that the husband should do something."
But seriously, what else can he do? I'm trying to figure that myself, and I just don't see many options beyond what we've discussed already. I guess he could call the harassing jerk at work and tell him to quit harassing his wife. He could book his wife into conflict resolution courses, or therapy to help her deal with whatever issue this is, but putting more pressure on his wife just makes a bad situation worse for her - now is she not only dealing with a jerk at work, but she has her husband giving her stress at home, too.

When people are saying Skald should definitely do something, I'm having a hard time imagining what that could be that wouldn't damage his relationship with his wife and would be even a little effective. This simply isn't his battle to fight, frustrating as that is. He does have the choice of leaving his wife over it, as some people seem to be indicating they would, but that seems like a really jerk thing to do to me - your wife is having a problem at work that she isn't dealing with the way you'd like, so your solution is to leave her? That's not very "for better or worse."

elbows

04-22-2008, 07:22 AM

I would be willing to believe that she told him because she wants his help. That would be, his help to do what she decides is the right thing and when she decides it's the right time.

She clearly doesn't want him to fight this battle for her, fair ball. But she wants something or she wouldn't have told him, I believe. She didn't want to tell him for fear he'd over react, perhaps because he is an HR guy.

He should do something. He should, gently and with care, encourage her to please document the events as they occur, please, please. So when the day comes that she has had enough or she feels it's time, she has what she needs to act decisively. Additionally, as she has let him in on what's going on, he should inquire, not daily perhaps, but regularly how things are going in this relationship. Simply stay on top of it, and stay informed. At the same time letting her know that he continues to be concerned. (No. Not in an overly parental way. In a friendly way.)

From time to time, he should offer her suggestions, the sort of more reasoned ones being offered here. The one about going to the company lawyer seemed a good one to me. An anonymous letter, without her name but pointing out that what's occurring is being documented. A one on one discussion with the guys uncle, in private, pointing out that she is not, by nature litigious but is afraid of her life being made miserable should she speak up, she loves her job etc, (again, mention the documentation that's hopefully being kept.) It sounds to me like at least one other person at her work knows about this, which is a good thing.

Just keep coming up with creative solutions and throwing them out there in an easygoing, "Hey, I was thinking about your situation...", kind of way, like a friend would. Then leave her some time to think them through and get comfortable with. After a little reflection, and possibly another bad day, she may latch on to one of them. One may suit her, and her particular situation, just right.

Mostly though he needs to not ride her about this, inquiring is okay, grilling is not. Throwing out suggestions is okay, pounding away on the one he thinks is best is not. Mostly though, not being offended that your suggestions are not being acted on, is the more important thing.

I feel she is trying to become a person who can handle this herself. Perhaps understanding that he's abusing her in this way because he senses weakness there. As an adult she deserves the opportunity to evolve as a person and deal with her own stuff, and in her own time. And her husband should support her in that personal development.

PunditLisa

04-22-2008, 08:02 AM

Dangerosa

04-22-2008, 08:29 AM

Your job is to be supportive of your wife.

You can be supportive by offering suggestions.

My first suggestion would be to show her the numbers on this page and get help - whether that is help lodging a complaint or just help dealing - from someone who deals with this.

http://feminist.org/911/harass.html

(9 to 5 is very good with these issues - or was when I went through this).

If you or she has an ERP (Employee Resource Program), give them a call - they can help her get to a therapist - which I think is really important (although HER decision). It sounds like the company is small, which means a lot of doors are closed - EEOC may not be an option for very small companies (I can't remember), ERPs aren't common, small companies do not have ethics hotlines like big ones.

The other supportive thing you can do is remind her she can quit. (It would be better if she documented and quit, but her mental health is more important that anything else).

Best of luck to both of you. Been there, done that and it really sucks. Hating your job sucks. Having a bully abuse you at your job really sucks.

Zebra

04-22-2008, 09:00 AM

So... she's an intelligent adult when she behaves in a way you approve of, and an incompetent child to be protected when she doesn't? Does she know that's how you feel? Because it may not be what she believes she signed up for.

She's an intelligent adult when she behaves in an inteligent adult fashion. Just taking abuse at work is not intelligent or adult.

Skald the Rhymer

04-22-2008, 09:33 AM

I know. I'm not a macho idiot that doesn't know better.

It's the nature of the situation.

On top of which, there is some aspect of racial hatred? I'm sorry, it's just beyond the pale. I'm only being honest in saying that I wouldn't be able not to act unless there was an immediate remedy to the situation.

Oh, I think it's primarily about racial hatred; it just happens to be expressing itself in sexual harassment.

Kalhoun

04-22-2008, 09:52 AM

When people are helpless to defend themselves, it's up to those closest around them to do it for them. Skald's wife has been given ample opportunity to handle it herself and she hasn't. Non-action is not an option anymore.

Twice in my life I've picked up the phone and called out people (one was a stranger to me) for being shits to people that I love. I don't regret either one. And I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
Actually, she may not be "helpless" but has simply not decided to do anything yet. I still think it's her perogative to decide when she has had enough, regardless of how it looks to the rest of the world.

Skald the Rhymer

04-22-2008, 10:19 AM

Actually, she may not be "helpless" but has simply not decided to do anything yet. I still think it's her perogative to decide when she has had enough, regardless of how it looks to the rest of the world.

Many thanks to all who have responded. I have a few thoughts in response; I won't bother indicating who in particular I'm replying to because I'm so incredibly lazy.

First: yes, my wife is the former barista who so effectively cock-blocked a potential rival at the library. She's very bold in some ways--I'd say most ways--but when it comes to things like this, she freezes. I know why, many of you have probably guessed why, but I am not going to discuss it. But she knows that freezing is a bad reaction, and I suspect the part of the reason she is asking for space is that she is trying to get herself to a place where she can react to situations like this in non-deer-in-headlights ways.

Second: while Mrs. Rhymer hadn't explicitly told me what was going on at work before her friend told me specifics, she did let me know that she was unhappy with parts of her job; I think the phrase she used was "95 percent Lothlorien, 5 percent Mordor." But she also asked me to wait till she could talk about it.

Third: Yeah, there's a big age disparity between us, which is part of the reason that mrs. r. is hesitant to have me ride to her rescue. There's enough of an inevitable father-daughter vibe to the marriage that we don't need to encourage more.

Fourth: If I were going to attack the guy with a blunt object, I wouldn't announce it on a message board, as that would be stupid. So my veracity in disclaiming any intention to do so is something you'll have to take on faith. That said, it seems to me that, even apart from legal issues, doing so when she's asked me to let her solve the problem herself would only make her feel more helpless.

I will post more as more occurs to me.

Giraffe

04-22-2008, 10:29 AM

Really Not All That Bright

04-22-2008, 10:38 AM

Oh, I think it's primarily about racial hatred; it just happens to be expressing itself in sexual harassment.
If you don't mind my asking, what race(s) do you, the wife, and the dickhead identify as?

Cheesesteak

04-22-2008, 10:44 AM

Third: Yeah, there's a big age disparity between us, which is part of the reason that mrs. r. is hesitant to have me ride to her rescue. With this situation, I don't see you as riding to her rescue. You're not the sheriff who is going to come riding in guns blazing, you're the guy handing her a phone and telling her to call the sheriff.

Ultimately, she is the one who has to go to HR, she is the one making the complaint, and HR is the one who will have to take action to fix the problem. You are merely a source of experience who can help her organize her complaint so that it sticks.

Skald the Rhymer

04-22-2008, 10:51 AM

If you don't mind my asking, what race(s) do you, the wife, and the dickhead identify as?

Well, I identify only as human, as a matter of principle, but in the eyes of the Census Bureau I'm black.

Mrs. R's mother is black and her father white, again in the eyes of the Census Bureau. If you met her you'd think she was white; if you asked her she'd say she is black.

The dickless wonder is white.

NightRabbit

04-22-2008, 10:55 AM

Jesus christ. The woman would rather cry in her car than accept any sort of consolation from her husband. I don't think it's hard to understand that there's a depression issue going on. She's content to be a victim, she's content to be passive, to accept abuse. She NEEDS help. She's not going to do it herself.

I would consider it a breach of husbandly duty if Skald DIDN'T take some sort of action. What, he's supposed to let his wife wallow in some sort of mental condition because she wants to be left alone?

I agree that this would be a relationship dealbreaker, just as if my husband or SO were suicidally depressed and refusing to see a shrink, or an alcoholic and refusing to get help, or a drug addict, etc. This has nothing to do with the fact that she's female. I would expect the same of anyone else in a marriage or a partnership situation.

Contrapuntal

04-22-2008, 11:01 AM

The dickless wonder is white.He's not really dickless. It just seems that way, comparatively speaking.

;)

Kalhoun

04-22-2008, 11:55 AM

Stonebow

04-22-2008, 12:09 PM

There may be depression issues or other reasons she's chosen to block her husband's involvement in the issues. If he wants to discuss the underlying issues for her lack of action, that's within his bounds. However, going to her employer, or the offender, without her consent is out of bounds as far as I'm concerned.

I agree 100%...though I don't blame anyone for engaging in some wishful thinking while venting over something like this. I've been reading this thread for a while, and gotten angrier and angrier- and I'm not even involved!
There has been a lot of talking past each other here, but it seems as though the crux of the argument (as far as we are concerned) is how upset this husband is allowed to be over his wife's situation. I, myself, am infuriated on principle; I can only imagine what it must be to have to sit by as it unfolds to someone I love.

For me, this situation is a relationship dealbreaker. I'd not go busting heads or slashing tires, but I'd be hard-pressed to not give my wife some sort of ultimatum/timetable for resolving this- either through official channels or quitting. It that fair? No, and I understand that. But neither is what he is going through due to her inaction.
As a married couple, what hurts my wife hurts me. When we got married, one right she did give up was the right to engage in self-destructive behavior (and inaction in the face of abuse counts as such) without thinking of how it would impact our relationship.
Maybe the OP's wife simply doesn't consider how damaging this can be to her marriage in addition to her herself. And, of course, I project my own notions of 'damage' that the OP may not share- he may not feel as though this strains their relationship at all, and is only concerned for his wife's situation.

Pixilated

04-22-2008, 01:03 PM

Nashiitashii had some very good words of wisdom as well as Chimera & a select few others.

I definately would not advice interferring with office politics or even sending a note to the wife. Sending a note only lowers yourself to his level (though fanatasizing about it and the meanest outcome could be a minute of fun). Calling the owner or anything else most likely would cause even more problems - especially if you are not a part of the network (but if you were a golfing buddy and put a bug in his ear, well....).

So are you supposed to do nothing but let her cry on your shoulder? Let her deal with it her own way - which could amount to nothing? yes, and no.

Being there for her withut taking action only goes so far. She does not want to involve you but are her reasons justified - or are they excuses to avoid whatever is really going on? Being a woman, I could play Devil's Advocate and plant seeds that may or may not be valid in regards to the situation - all I will say is "There's always more than one side of a story" and every side leaves out key information, or their side is portrayed to be the TRUTH.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I am a key advocate for counseling. That is the step you can take if not for your wife, but for yourself. Sometimes we all need advice from a professional on human nature.

Voyager

04-22-2008, 01:14 PM

Fourth: If I were going to attack the guy with a blunt object, I wouldn't announce it on a message board, as that would be stupid. So my veracity in disclaiming any intention to do so is something you'll have to take on faith. That said, it seems to me that, even apart from legal issues, doing so when she's asked me to let her solve the problem herself would only make her feel more helpless.

I will post more as more occurs to me.
I don't think some people here really understand the visceral reaction a situation like this produces in men. The fact that a lot of us would like to pound this clown into a photon doesn't mean we or you actually would.

If you don't mind my asking, has this situation affected your marriage? If it has, do you think she would be open to discussing it with a third party, with or without you there? Maybe if someone neutral agrees with the very reasonable HR-related steps you suggested, it would help.

eleanorigby

04-22-2008, 01:19 PM

What a mess of a thread. Couple of things come to mind here.

First, I think we all need to separate thoughts from feelings and both of those from action. skald can feel anyway he likes about this. I am a bit :confused: re the racial bigotry being expressed via sexual harassment, but find I'm not too interested in digging for Asshole's motivation.

Clearly, Mrs skald is not coping well (who would?) with this situation. She has turned to the OP for support, but has stated she will solve this herself. She is seen to be taking steps that direction, but this is where it gets tricky.

I think skald should (and this will not be easy. It will be very hard indeed) just witness this with his wife. Abide with her. If she wants to talk, listen. If she wants to rant, rave, kick shit, and cry; listen. Be very patient, very. She may well need more help and support than any husband, no matter how loving, can give. I suggest a good female therapist.

What I think may be going on (and it's speculation on my part) is that there has been some abuse or issue with this type of situation in the past. As oogie (is too a word) this is with non-traumatized people, it is like entering the depths of hell for those who have shit in their past that revisits them when Assholes strike. (I do not speak from experience here--just 20+ years of nursing and seeing a lot of people pain).

I think Mrs skald is attempting to gather and garner her strength in order to confront this guy. I think she is afraid to move just yet because she doesn't feel ready and she is scared, deeply scared. This is more than just the job to her--she has some demons to face here. They are hers alone and the hardest thing skald has to do is to just abide with her as she fights this battle. Abide--not judge, not solve the problem, not enable, not rescue, not condemn.

It will be very difficult, which is why I say bring in some ancillary help, ie therapist. Perhaps just short term, but Mrs skald needs a safe place where she can unload this stuff as she processes it. skaldman is safe, but comes with expectations and issues of his own.

I hope someday she does confront Asshole. I hope she sues the company for everything its got and wins. I just feel that she might be feeling crushed by all things she knows she SHOULD be doing to solve this, while she is also being consumed by all the things she wants to go away. She must be in a very private hell right now. I wish her well and hope she isn't there long.

Kalhoun

04-22-2008, 01:31 PM

I agree 100%...though I don't blame anyone for engaging in some wishful thinking while venting over something like this. I've been reading this thread for a while, and gotten angrier and angrier- and I'm not even involved!
There has been a lot of talking past each other here, but it seems as though the crux of the argument (as far as we are concerned) is how upset this husband is allowed to be over his wife's situation. I, myself, am infuriated on principle; I can only imagine what it must be to have to sit by as it unfolds to someone I love.

For me, this situation is a relationship dealbreaker. I'd not go busting heads or slashing tires, but I'd be hard-pressed to not give my wife some sort of ultimatum/timetable for resolving this- either through official channels or quitting. It that fair? No, and I understand that. But neither is what he is going through due to her inaction.
As a married couple, what hurts my wife hurts me. When we got married, one right she did give up was the right to engage in self-destructive behavior (and inaction in the face of abuse counts as such) without thinking of how it would impact our relationship.
Maybe the OP's wife simply doesn't consider how damaging this can be to her marriage in addition to her herself. And, of course, I project my own notions of 'damage' that the OP may not share- he may not feel as though this strains their relationship at all, and is only concerned for his wife's situation.
Believe me, I understand. My husband actually DID go to an offender's place of employment and told him that his face was that last thing he'd ever see should he choose to speak to me again. But I asked him to intervene. Therein lies the difference.

Velma

04-22-2008, 02:00 PM

I am a bit :confused: re the racial bigotry being expressed via sexual harassment, but find I'm not too interested in digging for Asshole's motivation.

I am guessing (I could be wrong, and it doesn't really matter) that he is playing off the whole "black men are well endowed" stereotype and harassing her about that. Showing her that kind of porn and asking why she married him, why she likes being with him...it must be because he is big, blah blah blah.

My thoughts - if she is working up the courage to do something, that is fine and should be supported as she feels comfortable. If it is her intention to do nothing forevermore, that is not fine. I would not be supportive of my spouse's intention to do nothing. I would not do it for him though, but I wouldn't let it go either. If she is considering coming forward, or deciding whether she should quit, or confront him, or whatever, that probably takes some time to sort out her options. Either way, she should be documenting everything.

NightRabbit

04-22-2008, 03:33 PM

Either way, she should be documenting everything.

Sounded like, when Skald began to advise her to document everything, she refused to listen and said she'd handle things herself. If she's not even documenting, IMHO, Skald needs to step in. You don't let someone you care for allow themselves to be abused, and she would recognize this herself, were she in her right mind. She obviously isn't.

t-bonham@scc.net

04-22-2008, 03:45 PM

However, going to her employer, or the offender, without her consent is out of bounds as far as I'm concerned.How about calling the cops? There is a crime being committed, after all (assault). Or encouraging her fellow worker who is witnessing this to call the cops?

Do you think people are required to obtain permission from the crime victim before calling 911 to report a crime in progress?

Boyo Jim

04-22-2008, 03:49 PM

eleanorigby

04-22-2008, 03:49 PM

I am guessing (I could be wrong, and it doesn't really matter) that he is playing off the whole "black men are well endowed" stereotype and harassing her about that. Showing her that kind of porn and asking why she married him, why she likes being with him...it must be because he is big, blah blah blah.

If that's the case, it's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of. I think it might be a mix of both or Asshole first started digging at her re the racial thing (not knowing her own background obviously) and found a great weapon that worked beyond his wildest dreams. This is not about sex or race, IMO, it's about power and intimidation.

The motive doesn't matter unless proving it's racial can up the punishment (which I'm all for). I agree that she needs to (eventually) do something and should be documenting all of this, but it sounds to me like she's not in place where she can do that, yet. He can't do it for her, but he can get her the help she needs. Even then, though, it's up to her to help herself.

In an odd way, this situation (and its responses) reminds me of an addicted spouse. Sure, you shouldn't enable, but after hiding the car keys and pouring the whiskey down the drain, you can't stop the drunk from drinking. They have to help themselves. It's not right that she's hurting their marriage, but a good marriage can weather this. I also don't agree with whoever upthread said that spouses should share everything, but that's another thread...

t-bonham@scc.net

04-22-2008, 04:20 PM

Sexual harassment in the workplace is not a crime. Leaving a dirty magazine is not a crime. Saying offensive things to someone is not a crime. I have not read anything here to suggest a crime has been committed.
Yes, it is.
Here, for example, are relevant Indiana statutes.7. Harassment. I.C. 35-45-2-2. A person who makes a telephone call, sends email, or otherwise communicates with a person with the intent of harassing, annoying, or alarming that person, commits the crime of Harassment, a Class B misdemeanor.

8. Stalking. I.C. 35-45-10-5. The crime of Stalking is defined by law as any repeated or continuing harassment causing the victim to feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, or threatened, and is a Class D felony.
Here in Minnesota, Statutes 609.749 on HARASSMENT; STALKING; specifically lists: repeatedly mails or delivers or causes the delivery by any means, including electronically, of letters, telegrams, messages, packages, or other objects; which would seem to cover repeatedly leaving dirty magazines on her desk.

Most other states have pretty similar laws. He would have to check the specific statutes for whatever state they reside in, but I would be very surprised if their state does not have similar laws.

(I mentioned Assault before, but that applies only if this person has actually touched her. That hasn't been mentioned so far, so that law wouldn't apply.)

Shayna

04-22-2008, 04:22 PM

If somebody doesn't take action,

. . . this crime will play itself completely out, until the perpetrator gets tired of it and moves on to other victims. The criminal will never be brought to justice and Mrs. Rhymer's life will be worse off because of it. . . . or it will continue to escalate. And who knows, perhaps someday he'll become a Justice sitting on the highest court in the land, while Mrs. Rhymer is branded a conniving liar.

Shodan

04-22-2008, 04:31 PM

Maybe if Mrs. Rhymer doesn't follow her harasser from job to job and can keep her facts straight, that might not happen.

Regards,
Shodan

astro

04-22-2008, 04:49 PM

Yes, it is.
Here, for example, are relevant Indiana statutes.
Here in Minnesota, Statutes 609.749 on HARASSMENT; STALKING; specifically lists: which would seem to cover repeatedly leaving dirty magazines on her desk.

Most other states have pretty similar laws. He would have to check the specific statutes for whatever state they reside in, but I would be very surprised if their state does not have similar laws.

(I mentioned Assault before, but that applies only if this person has actually touched her. That hasn't been mentioned so far, so that law wouldn't apply.)

Per the OP's description of the harassment

Consequently he's been sexually harassing her, in the hostile-work-environment-sense: he's asked her invasive questions about her sex life, he suggests porn movies she might enjoy, he leaves sex mags on her desk. More than once he's kept at her until she was reduced to tears.

It is unlikely that he is leaving porn in full view of everyone, but is rather dropping it surreptitiously or when they are alone. Same for the comments. The only thing she could tag him with (evidence-wise) based on the OP's description, is if someone actually witnessed him doing any of the offensive things he is charged with, and was willing to testify to that effect.

Without some documented history or other proof of the harassment, all the laws in the world are without force. In these scenarios if a harasser just won't stop after being told to stop, the victim either has to take charge of the situation and get ready for war, or get ready to quit. There's not much middle ground.

jimpatro

04-23-2008, 12:18 AM

So what would one do if he/she witnessed a significant other abused right before their eyes, say standing in line at the grocery store? So alone, away at work is supposed to be not quite as bad?

At the very least, as alluded to earlier, dirty tricks should ensue.

Blank Slate

04-23-2008, 01:05 AM

Is there anything wrong with sending an anonymous email?

To Dickless,

Look around you. Everyone you work with knows about you and the way you treat some of the employees. Everyone has eyes and ears. People talk, people overhear and people notice. Nearly everyone has a cell phone that records audio, takes pictures and even shoots video, nowadays.
You might see all these people as employees, but more likely as just subordinates. Others might see them simply as witnesses.

Best Regards,

All the people

Voyager

04-23-2008, 01:45 AM

Voyager

04-23-2008, 01:56 AM

I think Mrs skald is attempting to gather and garner her strength in order to confront this guy. I think she is afraid to move just yet because she doesn't feel ready and she is scared, deeply scared. This is more than just the job to her--she has some demons to face here. They are hers alone and the hardest thing skald has to do is to just abide with her as she fights this battle. Abide--not judge, not solve the problem, not enable, not rescue, not condemn.

I hope someday she does confront Asshole. I hope she sues the company for everything its got and wins. I just feel that she might be feeling crushed by all things she knows she SHOULD be doing to solve this, while she is also being consumed by all the things she wants to go away. She must be in a very private hell right now. I wish her well and hope she isn't there long.
I hope she doesn't feel that the only solution to this problem is to confront the asshole. That is what managers and HR departments are for. The simple, non-confrontational solution is for her to collect evidence, go to her manager and present it. Her manager either talks to the guy directly or goes to the right level of management which will convince him it is serious - and notify HR also. The guy gets sat down, without Mrs. Skald there, and told that there is a complaint, informed of the evidence, and told of the consequences if he doesn't stop. If the makes excuses, he just gets told that it doesn't matter why he did it, he just needs to stop.

I'm not a lawyer or an HR person, but I believe that people suing without going through channels first don't have much of a chance.
Skald knows all this, of course.

t-bonham@scc.net

04-23-2008, 02:18 AM

This is a terrible idea. Someone did this (the harasser was an old boyfriend) where I worked. The management was not pleased that she did it without the courtesy of telling them what was going on.Well boo hoo hoo.

Any management that permits this kind of hostile work environment doesn't deserve to "be pleased". They ought to be pleased that they aren't a defendant in court over this!

And if they didn't know that this was going on, then they aren't doing a very competent job of 'managing', are they?
Obviously, this employee, and the other employees who knew about it, all felt that reporting it to management would not result in any effective action.

zweisamkeit

04-23-2008, 05:02 AM

Sorry, zweisamkeit, but we really don't want posters sharing accounts. I appreciate crazyjoe wanting to help out the OP by giving advice, but he'll have to refrain until he either renews or free posting gets here. Sorry.

Sorry about that. :( I couldn't email Skald from his profile or I would have. I only posted it because it's such a serious topic (and not like joe wanted to weigh in on "toilet paper: under or over the roll? Part CVIII"). Sorry. :(

Skald the Rhymer

04-23-2008, 12:00 PM

Is there anything wrong with sending an anonymous email?

Sure. It's pretending I respect her wishes while not actually doing so.

ivylass

04-23-2008, 12:03 PM

Well boo hoo hoo.

Any management that permits this kind of hostile work environment doesn't deserve to "be pleased". They ought to be pleased that they aren't a defendant in court over this!

And if they didn't know that this was going on, then they aren't doing a very competent job of 'managing', are they?
Obviously, this employee, and the other employees who knew about it, all felt that reporting it to management would not result in any effective action.

We don't know that. It's possible she jumped right to calling the cops, without giving managment the opportunity to resolve the situation. Upper management is not aware of all the social dynamics going on within a company...they're more focused on Bottom Line stuff, how big is it and can we make it bigger. If an employee doesn't tell them there's a problem, how are they supposed to know?

Voyager

04-23-2008, 12:23 PM

Well boo hoo hoo.

Any management that permits this kind of hostile work environment doesn't deserve to "be pleased". They ought to be pleased that they aren't a defendant in court over this!

And if they didn't know that this was going on, then they aren't doing a very competent job of 'managing', are they?
Obviously, this employee, and the other employees who knew about it, all felt that reporting it to management would not result in any effective action.
No, the managers didn't know. I sat more closely to her than her manager did, and I didn't know. And the manager would have taken action. We were actually pretty good about this kind of thing.

Lots of managers give people freedom, and aren't watching their every move. As part of that deal, you have to tell when something is wrong. You don't go calling police to the workplace just because you assume that no one will listen.

Voyager

04-23-2008, 12:28 PM

We don't know that. It's possible she jumped right to calling the cops, without giving managment the opportunity to resolve the situation. Upper management is not aware of all the social dynamics going on within a company...they're more focused on Bottom Line stuff, how big is it and can we make it bigger. If an employee doesn't tell them there's a problem, how are they supposed to know?
I know she did because the response to the incident was - please let us know, and if you need to call cops, call security first. They were unhappy about the incident, but they were more unhappy about the lack of trust. The managers were absolutely not jerks.
The guy, by the way, didn't even work in our center, and I'm not sure how he even got in.

NightRabbit

04-23-2008, 12:29 PM

Sure. It's pretending I respect her wishes while not actually doing so.

Well, you being someone who loves her, respecting her dysfunctional wishes to remain abused is not required of you. You have to decide what's more important- to respecting her wish to be in pain, or to put your foot down and demand that she act in her own best interest.

Bridget Burke

04-23-2008, 12:49 PM

Well, you being someone who loves her, respecting her dysfunctional wishes to remain abused is not required of you. You have to decide what's more important- to respecting her wish to be in pain, or to put your foot down and demand that she act in her own best interest.

Skald said "Sure. It's pretending I respect her wishes while not actually doing so" in response to a suggestion he send an anonymous e-mail to the creep. Indeed, that would be a cowardly way to handle this difficult situation.

I'm with the many who don't think that Skald should march into the office & punch out the asshole. And I don't think he wants to, either. (Well, the idea may have crossed his mind--but he knows better.)

My 2 cents: No, he shouldn't just ignore the situation because she asked him to. It's making her unhappy, which makes him unhappy. Counseling might help--especially since past experience seems to be haunting her. Further discussion & support should be offered. If she wants to handle it, what's her plan?

But no macho "demanding"....

maggenpye

04-23-2008, 04:45 PM

Skald, I just want to say that I think you're a great guy, who is handling the situation brilliantly. Especially in your understanding that this sitation has sparked off other issues that your wife needs to work through.

Give it till the weekend, when she's had a break from the jerk. Ask how it's going, is she feeling any better? Is there anything she'd like you to do that would help? Any advice on dealing with HR?

Would her co-worker back her up if she went to HR? It could be empowering to know that she will not be on her own in a "he said she said" situation.

I hope she decides to go the official route, but I'd understand if she decided to just leave instead. I'm sure you'll support her in whatever decision she makes.

Cat Whisperer

04-23-2008, 05:05 PM

Sure. It's pretending I respect her wishes while not actually doing so.
That's a very good answer.

Skald the Rhymer

04-23-2008, 05:16 PM

ratatoskK

04-23-2008, 05:27 PM

That's fantastic!!

ivylass

04-23-2008, 05:31 PM

Update:

Mrs. R. just emailed me. She has decided to talk to HR about the Dickless Aryan and wants some help preparing for it.

I'm not going to tell her that I'm proud of her, because that seems to imply that I'm taking partial responsibility for her decision. I am, however, going to tell her how much she rocks.

Excellent news! We will, of course, expect you to pump her for every single detail of her conversation with HR and then pass said details on to us. :D

OtakuLoki

04-23-2008, 05:35 PM

Update:

Mrs. R. just emailed me. She has decided to talk to HR about the Dickless Aryan and wants some help preparing for it.

I'm not going to tell her that I'm proud of her, because that seems to imply that I'm taking partial responsibility for her decision. I am, however, going to tell her how much she rocks.

This is really great to hear. I'm glad that she's chosen to do this, and that you're gog to be supporting her so well!

She's not the only one in the Rhymer house who rocks. :D

Acid Lamp

04-23-2008, 05:36 PM

Pixilated

04-23-2008, 06:33 PM

Wonderful news!

shamrock227

04-23-2008, 06:45 PM

Fantastic. Good for her.

Just her decision to move ahead with this must be a great weight off both your shoulders.

eleanorigby

04-23-2008, 06:57 PM

I hope she doesn't feel that the only solution to this problem is to confront the asshole. That is what managers and HR departments are for. The simple, non-confrontational solution is for her to collect evidence, go to her manager and present it. Her manager either talks to the guy directly or goes to the right level of management which will convince him it is serious - and notify HR also. The guy gets sat down, without Mrs. Skald there, and told that there is a complaint, informed of the evidence, and told of the consequences if he doesn't stop. If the makes excuses, he just gets told that it doesn't matter why he did it, he just needs to stop.

I'm not a lawyer or an HR person, but I believe that people suing without going through channels first don't have much of a chance.
Skald knows all this, of course.

You misunderstood me, which is easy to see, since I wasn't clear. By confront, I meant the situation--something other than just this scene (bad enough as it is) is causing her to go all deer in the headlights. Once she has garnered the strength to face that, she can go through channels. I hope she's at least documenting stuff, though.

ETA--way to go Mrs skald!

Voyager

04-23-2008, 07:11 PM

You misunderstood me, which is easy to see, since I wasn't clear. By confront, I meant the situation--something other than just this scene (bad enough as it is) is causing her to go all deer in the headlights. Once she has garnered the strength to face that, she can go through channels. I hope she's at least documenting stuff, though.

ETA--way to go Mrs skald!
Well, she got out of the headlights. Excellent! She should ask HR if a posse of about 10 Dopers can beat this guy up. :D

maggenpye

04-23-2008, 07:44 PM

Excellent news, you both rock!

Dung Beetle

04-24-2008, 07:37 AM

I knew it! You go, Mrs. S.!

Jurph

04-24-2008, 11:32 AM

I'm a guy and I can pretty much figure out what would get me in deep, deep trouble. This is not rocket science.

I'm a rocket scientist, and I am fairly certain that it would get me fired and get my clearances revoked.

Read up on whistleblower statutes and wrongful termination laws. Make sure your wife is protected from retaliation before you poke the hornets' nest.

thirdwarning

04-24-2008, 07:43 PM

Oh, I'm so glad she found the strength to do this. Go, Mrs. R!!

Good on you, too.

Sunrazor

04-25-2008, 09:16 AM

Skald the Rhymer

04-25-2008, 09:44 PM

I don't think telling her you're proud implies anything except that ... well, you're proud of her! You should be -- she climbed a huge mountain of fear and disgust to transcend cruel and demeanting treatment, and she did so partly because you were there for her. My wife went through something similar -- she wasn't singled out, but sexual harrassment of female employees was pretty much the office policy -- so I know your outrage and frustration. You have every right to be proud of her and tell her so.

The pride issue is probably my own weird thing. I tend to take the construction "I'm proud of you" as implying, "You have done well, young grasshopper, in no small part because I, your teacher, led you over a thorny path." So I don't like saying it unless I did, in fact, do that. And this isn't my accomplishment; it's hers.

It has occurred to me -- and this may have already been addressed in the thread, I haven't read every posting yet -- but wouldn't she have grounds to complain for both sexual harrassment and racial discrimination/harrassment? Seems to me that I have read of cases where people who are harrassed because they are in mixed-race marriages have grounds for a racial discrimination complaint.

From what she's described, it's all about race; it just manifested in terms of sexual harassment. Apparently it started when the Dickless Wonder saw a picture of her sitting on my lap and said something about her deserving better than a -- well, let's say Canadian, in reference to to the Pit thread. This vexed her not merely because because of me but because, pale skin and fair hair aside, she identifies as black. She made the tactical error of letting him know that, and he saw her weakest spot.

Anyway, she talked with her HR person yesterday, and today was told that they're having a talk with DW Monday. I'll let you guys know what's up, if it seems appropriate and if anyone cares.

OtakuLoki

04-25-2008, 09:47 PM

FWIW, I would like to hear how things work out with DW. I do understand that you may not be able to offer details, though.

greatshakes

04-26-2008, 12:54 AM

I can't tell you what to do, but in a similar case I have heard of a person that beat the harasser until the blood all but stopped, using severe, nonetheless non-lethal force. He told the person that if he went to the police that it would be the last thing that he would do with both hands attached to his body, and with both eyes in his head.
He didn't ask his own wife, as her judgement was clouded.

ivylass

04-26-2008, 07:05 AM

Does she have any of the magazines he "gave" her?

elbows

04-26-2008, 11:35 AM

You could always reminder her she should be really proud of herself.

Sometimes when you're staring down your own demons it helps to have someone remind you that you have something to be righteously proud of, regardless of how things shake out.

Which can prove to be very helpful if things don't come out in a pleasing way at the end. It's hard to really hear "you should be proud" when you've been freshly crushed by a bad outcome.

Of course we will be interested, I've been saying a strengthening prayer for her everyday since I first read this thread - and no end in sight!

Kalhoun

04-26-2008, 12:37 PM

How about calling the cops? There is a crime being committed, after all (assault). Or encouraging her fellow worker who is witnessing this to call the cops?

Do you think people are required to obtain permission from the crime victim before calling 911 to report a crime in progress?
How do you figure she's being assaulted?

an unlawful physical attack upon another; an attempt or offer to do violence to another, with or without battery, as by holding a stone or club in a threatening manner.

While it may be a crime, it's not the kind of crime that will get police involvement. That's not how it works. You want to take action? You get a lawyer and file suit against him (or the company). The cops would tell her the same thing.

Her fellow worker could be a witness in the lawsuit, but the cops wouldn't respond to her/him, either. It's not that kind of crime.

Kalhoun

04-26-2008, 12:45 PM

The pride issue is probably my own weird thing. I tend to take the construction "I'm proud of you" as implying, "You have done well, young grasshopper, in no small part because I, your teacher, led you over a thorny path." So I don't like saying it unless I did, in fact, do that. And this isn't my accomplishment; it's hers.

From what she's described, it's all about race; it just manifested in terms of sexual harassment. Apparently it started when the Dickless Wonder saw a picture of her sitting on my lap and said something about her deserving better than a -- well, let's say Canadian, in reference to to the Pit thread. This vexed her not merely because because of me but because, pale skin and fair hair aside, she identifies as black. She made the tactical error of letting him know that, and he saw her weakest spot.

Anyway, she talked with her HR person yesterday, and today was told that they're having a talk with DW Monday. I'll let you guys know what's up, if it seems appropriate and if anyone cares.Your definition of "proud" is correct. You cannot be proud of another person. You can only be proud of yourself. You are pleased with her decision. And so am I!

Does she know about this thread?

Brunhilda

04-26-2008, 01:51 PM

I think that a neck/shoulder/ or foot rub is in order, or you should do some kind of a nice, pampering type thing for her. It'll let her know that you are proud and on board, without giving you a chance to put your foot in your mouth.

panda meat

04-27-2008, 10:29 AM

The wife's problem is that she doesn't have a freaking spine or sense of self-worth. If she had either of those things, then she would feel more comfortable standing up for herself. Only a wimpy little person feels like he/she should be a doormat.

Right now she is trained to deal with abuse by accepting it. There is no good reason to allow that mentally to continue. It doesn't matter if she says the OP's help is not required -- she obviously doesn't know how to deal with abuse by herself in a healthy or appropiate manner. This is like taking an alcoholic's word that she can deal with the problem by herself. No, she really can't. She doesn't know how, because she's a freaking doormat.

Take her hand and run, not walk, to a therapist's office, and find a councilor she feels comfortable with so she can work on repairing the underlying issue. Which is not the abuse at work, the underlying issue is: why does she feel like being a doormat?

The folks here who are advocating you do nothing at all are out of line. You do not stand idle while someone is being abused and can't handle it on their own.

JSexton

04-27-2008, 01:56 PM

It saddens me that, in this world, being honest about your race can be considered a tactical error.

(not a slam on you or your wife, Skald. That's aimed squarely at the dickless aryan.)

Kalhoun

04-27-2008, 05:57 PM

maggenpye

04-27-2008, 09:33 PM

And she's also (having asked for and received 'time to work out what she'll do') decided to make an official complaint to HR. That's not 'dealing with abuse by accepting it' or 'being a doormat', which makes panda meat's post inaccurate.

Skald's actions (or inaction) and respect helped his wife make a more empowering decision for herself. Much better than telling her she 'doesn't have a freaking spine' and needs professional help.

Sunrazor

04-28-2008, 08:07 AM

Your definition of "proud" is correct. You cannot be proud of another person. You can only be proud of yourself. You are pleased with her decision. And so am I!

Does she know about this thread?Small hijack: I think "I'm proud of you", used in the not-literally-proud context in which most English speakers use it, is actually shorthand for a more complex feeling that involves pride, respect, admiration and maybe a few other emotions. It's not necessarily a bad thing -- at least I don't feel bad for being proud of my sons, my wife and other people in my life who achieve and accomplish and so on. I admit, I can be as nitpicky as anyone else about using the English language, but I think this is on instance in which the common usage of a phrase has added more meaning than that which is strictly defined in a dictionary.

Skald the Rhymer

04-28-2008, 08:38 AM

As I can't decide whether I find panda meat's or greatshake's post more irksome (one is insulting and condescending, the other so silly it makes me wonder what comic-book-universe the poster is a refugee from) I am going to simply whistle.

Your definition of "proud" is correct. You cannot be proud of another person. You can only be proud of yourself. You are pleased with her decision. And so am I!

Thanks.

Small hijack: I think "I'm proud of you", used in the not-literally-proud context in which most English speakers use it, is actually shorthand for a more complex feeling that involves pride, respect, admiration and maybe a few other emotions. It's not necessarily a bad thing -- at least I don't feel bad for being proud of my sons, my wife and other people in my life who achieve and accomplish and so on. I admit, I can be as nitpicky as anyone else about using the English language, but I think this is on instance in which the common usage of a phrase has added more meaning than that which is strictly defined in a dictionary

I can only say what I mean by "I proud of you." You're free to mean whatever you wish, as that sick bastard Fabulous Creature has not yet unleashed his flying robot sharks to conquer the earth.

thirdwarning

04-29-2008, 02:44 AM

The wife's problem is that she doesn't have a freaking spine or sense of self-worth. If she had either of those things, then she would feel more comfortable standing up for herself. Only a wimpy little person feels like he/she should be a doormat.

The folks here who are advocating you do nothing at all are out of line. You do not stand idle while someone is being abused and can't handle it on their own.

Nobody advocated that he do nothing at all. What we did say was that he shouldn't charge in and take care of it himself (which he probably couldn't do anyway), nor should he take the decision out of her hands. We advised him to support her and try to help her find the strength she needed to face the thing and deal with it. That would show her that he thought she was strong and capable. Isn't that what you wanted?

And so far it seems to be working.

Skald the Rhymer

04-29-2008, 06:38 PM

Or, the update I promised.

So my wife just called from work, or rather her car on her lunch break, filled with the healthiest reaction she's had to all of this: pure, unblinking rage.

You see, she had her meeting with HR yesterday, and the HR guy met with the Dickless Wonder afterwards. And today they BOTH (allegedly) got written up, though she is sure the DW's write-up is just for show.

Why, you ask? Well, DW for the obvious reasons. My wife, though, was given a fucking written warning by these miserable dog-sucking, pig-fucking, shit-spewing, corpse-raping bastards for two reasons. One is having pornography on company property, i.e., the magazines and DVDs put on her desk presumably by the DW. No one ever complained, and it clearly was not her doing, but hey! she admitted to having it! And she's married to a black guy, so she probably finds that kind of thing arousing anyway! And it's against company policy, so why not write her up?

The other reason for her being written up is that she did not immediately report the harassment. You see, according to the bastards, anyone who witnesses sexual harassment and does not immediately report it to management --INCUDING THE VICTIM-- is complicit in it, because by not immediately assisting management in shutting it down they are exposing the company to liability. Thus if a woman in her early 20s is reduced to fucking tears by a fucking male supervisor who is six inches taller and fifty pounds heavier and twenty years older and thinks the fact that he's related to the owner means that he's entitled to vent his racist misogynistic bullshit by making crude comments and looming over her until she breaks down, but this woman needs time, for her own reasons, to work up the nerve to defend herself, that woman is also guilty of endangering the company. Thus she has been told that any further "misdeeds" she commits may result in her employment being re-evaluated.

Oh, when she asked what punishment DW was getting--would he be required to stay away from her, apologize toher, et cetera--she was told that she needn't concern herself with it, because disciplinary matters are confidential. She should just remember to behave HERSELF, because it's very hard to find jobs these days and she needs to be sure that she has a good reference if she ever does.

So I'm pissed. You probably got that. But not only am I pissed, I am stunned by the colossal stupidity of the HR person, who has just given her WRITTEN EVIDENCE OF THREATENED RETALIATION. The utter, utter stupidity of what he's done is breathtaking. I mean, ye gods, if you're going to be an evil fuck, at least do it INTELLIGENTLY!!!!!

Miserable bastard. Stupid, game-playing, pig-fucking son of a whore.

Okay, I'm calmer now.

Anywhistle...Mrs. R. was, as I said, livid with very healthy rage. Before I could even ask her if she wanted advice, she told me she'd taken a deep breath, not reacted to the HR bastard, made sure his signature was on the memo, and walked away and made copies as soon as she had a chance. Later we're going to decide whether she should sue or simply walk away from the bastards. Also, I should add that she is also angry with someone I am not. That is, she's mad at herself. Because she sees that they overplayed their hand so because they think she's a doormat, that she's spineless, that she's going tobe a scared little girl. She is determined to show them that she's not.

And that's all there is for now.

Hello Again

04-29-2008, 07:03 PM

Outrageous. Not to sound like the second-Year law student who just had her final class in Employment Discrimination that I am, but your wife may have a lawsuit for Retaliation against her employers.

She should speak with a lawyer and file a complaint with the EEOC as soon as possible.

The link below gives an overview of the law:
http://library.findlaw.com/1998/Oct/1/126815.html

How to file with the EEOC
http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/howtofil.html

KSO

04-29-2008, 07:29 PM

Please don't just let it go. This is such complete fucking bullshit that I'M seeing red...

MsWhatsit

04-29-2008, 07:44 PM

Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Seriously, whatever the "nuclear option" is for this sort of thing, I urge you to employ it. And keep us updated, of course.

Skald the Rhymer

04-29-2008, 07:51 PM

lorene

04-29-2008, 07:54 PM

I'm sorry that this is the level of bullshit you and she are dealing with. On the other hand, so much better to have gone through official channels and reported it this way, rather than the anonymous note to the wife route, etc---this way, she has some recourse.

I agree with those who are begging her not to let this go.

ETA: I was sexually harassed by someone at my previous job. I am a grown woman and the experience still left me floundering for the right course of action. Maybe he'd stop if I ignored it, maybe I was making too big a deal out of it, etc. I would spend my lunch hours in my car crying, too. I know how difficult it is to go through the reporting process and the questioning and having to repeat over and over again the awful things someone has said to you. But I'm not sorry that I reported the guy. I am only sorry I waited as long as I did.

Nightingale

04-29-2008, 08:13 PM

Wow.

This is my first post to the thread, but I have been keeping up with it regularly and cheering for Mrs. Skald from the sidelines. Good on her for standing up for herself and going to HR. Good on you, Skald, for supporting her without pressuring her.

I am not usually someone whose first thought is to get a lawyer, but I truly believe that it is the ONLY appropriate course of action here. Mrs. Skald and the Asshole both learned something today. . . she is expected to act like a doormat and he can get away with whatever he wants. So the only thing she CAN do is to take legal action. Otherwise she is going to be miserable and abused at this job until they decide to fire her.

Give hell, Skald. And please keep us updated.

Edited to add: Where are y'all located? I have a friend who is a lawyer specializing in employment discrimintation.

you with the face

04-29-2008, 08:38 PM

I don't see how she was able to walk out of there without screaming "Aw HELL naw, mothafuckas!" and then burning the joint down.

Pixilated

04-29-2008, 09:05 PM

My wife, though, was given a fucking written warning by these miserable dog-sucking, pig-fucking, shit-spewing, corpse-raping bastards for two reasons. One is having pornography on company property, i.e., the magazines and DVDs put on her desk presumably by the DW. No one ever complained, and it clearly was not her doing, but hey! she admitted to having it! And she's married to a black guy, so she probably finds that kind of thing arousing anyway! And it's against company policy, so why not write her up?

The other reason for her being written up is that she did not immediately report the harassment. You see, according to the bastards, anyone who witnesses sexual harassment and does not immediately report it to management --INCUDING THE VICTIM-- is complicit in it, because by not immediately assisting management in shutting it down they are exposing the company to liability. Thus if a woman in her early 20s is reduced to fucking tears by a fucking male supervisor who is six inches taller and fifty pounds heavier and twenty years older and thinks the fact that he's related to the owner means that he's entitled to vent his racist misogynistic bullshit by making crude comments and looming over her until she breaks down, but this woman needs time, for her own reasons, to work up the nerve to defend herself, that woman is also guilty of endangering the company.

Thus why I gave the example in my initial response, and I apologize it had slipped my mind that the receiver of the harrassment may also find themselves disciplined - in the company I had worked for, it had to be reported immediately per the handbook signed by the employee at the time of orientation. HOWEVER, there was an unspoken timeframe for a person to step forward (usually w/in 24-72 hrs). If this situation had been going on for weeks or months, the company will CTA (cover their ass) and make an example of her UNLESS she can prove that this guy threatened her or her job. Her mistake, scared or not, was not reporting this to the company HR immediately WITH the porn in tow to hand over. Dont be surprised if any witnessess named get written up as well..... come to think of it, if she did name any witnessess and they did not get written up for not reporting the incident(s), I would think that would be a point or two in your wife's favor. As for asking HR how they were going to discipline the guy - it's true, it is not any of her business. I'm thinkin the only way to get ahold of that information (and making sure the guy got written up for having porn at work like your wife did) is through the legal system. Please do not think I am taking the company's side on this issue - I am not.

I probably should have explained that HR is not the employee's friend - far from it. They are there to protect the BUSINESS. Personally, I do not understand why they wrote her up IF she explained to HR and brought in the evidence (after documenting/ taking pictures of every article with the date) that she felt threatened to come forward before she had evidence of what was taking place because of WHO HE IS. If she admitted to HR that she did not tell him to stop and only avoided the man in hopes he would get bored and move on, this could also pose a problem. If they are acting on fear of being sued, I could see why they are including your wife in the disciplinary action (I'm not saying I personally agree with it), and they most likely consulted their company attorney with a copy of the formal write-up before presenting it to your wife.

Is what they did (the write-up) actually legal?
I really am sorry this all has happened to your wife.

I hope that man's karma catches up to him sooner rather than later! :mad:

OtakuLoki

04-30-2008, 12:47 AM

Skald, failing the opportunity to use some of Fabulous Creature's more outre devices and minions, I hope you and Mrs. R. get a lawyer, or three, and nail these bastards to the effing wall.

I'm sorry to hear that your wife is angry at herself, but very pleased to hear she's using the anger to make sure she will disprove their theories about her.

Kick the bastards in the nuts (figuratively)!

maggenpye

04-30-2008, 03:43 AM

Holy crap! I've worked in some shitty places at times, but I've never even heard of a reaction like that from HR.

Good on Mrs R for keeping her temper, wits and the signed memo.

Sue the bastards.

thirdwarning

04-30-2008, 04:17 AM

This is NOT her fault! She knows that, right?

I'm not big on running to lawyers, either, but this is one of the things they're for. At least talk to somebody and find out what your options are.

Mrs. R should be so proud of herself for reporting this, and for holding it together in HR. She's finding her strength. No matter how this comes out, that's a good thing.

t-bonham@scc.net

04-30-2008, 04:29 AM

Holy crap! I've worked in some shitty places at times, but I've never even heard of a reaction like that from HR.I've done some youth work, and such a reaction (reprimand 'em both) seems to be becoming common in schools.

When a bully assaults another kid in school, the school officials call it a 'fight', and punish both kids equally. Even if the kid didn't even try to defend himself -- apparently just standing there being beaten is 'fighting' and will get you suspended.

This is much easier for the school officials, of course. They don't have to do any work figuring out who started the fight, but can just automatically suspend 'em both. But the kid being bullied is now punished by the school, too. Hardly fair! But that doesn't seem to matter to school officials.

Until we do what maggenpye suggested -- sue the bastards.

Acid Lamp

04-30-2008, 07:55 AM

Consult counsel, and do it quickly.

Skald the Rhymer

04-30-2008, 10:08 AM

Update to the update:

I got a small but crucial detail wrong in yesterday's missive, which I must correct to put this update in perspective.

It was NOT the HR guy who gave her the written warning. It was her immediate boss, whom I'll "Jimmy" (not his real name, for obvious reasons). No one will be surprised to learn is a friend of the Dickless Wonder, and who had witnessed at least two of the incidents, including one that left her in tears.

This matters because, when she came back from her meal break, the actual HR person, "James," who was NOT present when my wife was given the bullshit warning, came up to her and, very politely, asked if she would mind giving back the reprimand memo, as it was a "mistake." She though about it for a second, then asked why. James didn't want to say, so my wife said she'd have to think about it and ask some people for advice. After that, about an hour before she went home, her boss's boss, whom I'll call "Angie," asked her to step into her office. HR-James was there. Angie gave her a new memo, which said, basically, that my wife should disregard the written warning she'd gotten earlier; it was supposedly a "clerical error." Angie refused to explain further but did apologize for any mixup and for any distress my wife had suffered because of this soi-disant clerical error.

Her friend who told me about the harassment and who supported her story also got written up and also had the same thing happen (request for the reprimand without explanation followed by a meeting with Angie and James undoing the previous memos.

I have my own thoughts as to what all this means.

AuntiePam

04-30-2008, 10:22 AM

I have my own thoughts as to what all this means.

That their lawyer finally got back to them?

I hope they're all shaking in their boots.

Hello Again

04-30-2008, 10:30 AM

Is what they did (the write-up) actually legal?

It is not only illegal, it was very, very stupid.

Viewing their actions in the most charitable light possible, what they did & the explanation they gave were probably based on a misunderstanding of Harassment law. It is true that an employer can be punished for failing to take reasonable care to prevent and correct harassment, including formal policies that encourage reporting. However, this does not extend to the right to punish a victim who fails to report "early enough".

In fact, when you make a claim of harassment (on the basis of sex, race, age, etc), the law currently leans towards the idea that employees must report harassment promptly, at the first incident almost, in order to retain their claim that a Hostile Work Environment existed. (see Matvia v. Baldhead Island (4th Cir. 2001)). It varies by circuit, but many require a victim to report the first sign of harassment, before it becomes a pattern.

What this employer seem to not realize, is that the victim-employee failing to report the harassment promptly is an employer's defense NOT a source of liability. In fact, the victim's unreasonable failure to complain is a complete defense to liability for the employer!

Moreover, a Retaliation claim is completely independent of the merit of the underlying harassment complaint (as long as it's not actually frivolous). Here, the employer went so far as to specify that her punishment flowed directly from her complaint.

Thus, this dingbat employer has transformed a Harassment claim which was arguably fundamentally weak (because the reporting was not prompt at an early stage of the behavior) into a Retaliation claim which appears quite strong.

DO NOT GIVE BACK THAT MEMO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

**This is not legal advice. I am not your lawyer. I am not A lawyer. I am speaking in general, theoretical terms. Speak to a lawyer with expertise in Employment law as soon as possible to understand how the law in your locality + the particular facts affect your rights under the law**

ivylass

04-30-2008, 11:15 AM

Hello Again

04-30-2008, 11:22 AM

Hello Again, I'm not a lawyer, but doesn't the second memo, acknowledging the error, trump the possible Million Dollar first memo?

Possibly. Its getting quite confusing factually.

<sulks>Stupid facts.</sulks>

OtakuLoki

04-30-2008, 11:31 AM

IANAL, but wouldn't the first memo remain effective for proving a hostile workplace, even if the second memo took out some of the sting? The way I'm reading the actions of the real HR-type and Angie is that they're trying to do some CYA, without actually changing the threatening tone that Mrs. the Rhymer has encountered.

Which is still hugely BS.

ivylass

04-30-2008, 11:35 AM

So they rescinded the write-up for having the pornography, not reporting it in time, and the veiled threat, or just the veiled threat?

I think some supervisors there need a refresher course or three.

How did Mrs. Rhymer handle the first memo? Did she sign anything?

Skald the Rhymer

04-30-2008, 11:38 AM

I wonder how HR found out about what happened with Jimmy? Did he go in there, bragging about how he dealt with the situation, and they went :eek: :smack: ?

From now on, your wife needs to take every single incident straight to HR. It's obvious her supervisor is clueless on this issue. And I'd be curious to see how DW behaves from now on.

Hello Again, I'm not a lawyer, but doesn't the second memo, acknowledging the error, trump the possible Million Dollar first memo?

I am not a lawyer, and I have not been in HR in 10 years, and my degree is not in HR, and I'm obviously not neutral. But here's how I read it.

Dickless Wonder and Jimmy are friends. DW is obviously an asshole; Jimmy is apparently an idiot. Upon getting wind of my wife's complaint, DW asks his friend's help in dealing with the uppity nigger bitch who's both passing for white and trying to get him fired. "Sure!" Jimmy says. "She's obviously spineless, so if I threaten her with a firing she'll probably drop the whole thing, and after a while we can probably make her blow the both of us!" "Cool!" DW says.

So they work up this reprimand without consulting HR or Angie. Stupid mistake number 1. Stupid mistake number 2 is to actually file that memo with HR. Maybe they tried to sneak it into the file without telling anyone; maybe not. But obviously HR has reason, even without knowing the reprimand, to be looking at my wife's file. Something like this:

"Hmm," James was thinking, "before I write up this report on this harassment claim I better make sure I know Mrs. R's service date. Good thing that file cabinet's right there." Seeing the memo, he thinks, "Hey! What the hell is this? What the hell is Jimmy thinking?" So he takes the reprimand to Angie, whose response is "Oh, Jesus God. I am surrounded by idiots. They might as well have given her signed blank check. Must handle this fast!"

ivylass

04-30-2008, 11:40 AM

Oh, Og, this is better than a Pit meltdown.

Has her supervisor had a history of being less than professional her?

Skald the Rhymer

04-30-2008, 11:41 AM

I wonder how HR found out about what happened with Jimmy? Did he go in there, bragging about how he dealt with the situation, and they went :eek: :smack: ?

From now on, your wife needs to take every single incident straight to HR. It's obvious her supervisor is clueless on this issue. And I'd be curious to see how DW behaves from now on.

Hello Again, I'm not a lawyer, but doesn't the second memo, acknowledging the error, trump the possible Million Dollar first memo?

I am not a lawyer, and I have not been in HR in 10 years, and my degree is not in HR, and I'm obviously not neutral. But here's how I read it.

Dickless Wonder and Jimmy are friends. DW is obviously an asshole; Jimmy is an idiot. Upon getting wind of my wife's complaint, DW asks his friend's help in dealing with the uppity nigger bitch who's both passing for white and trying to get him fired. "Sure!" Jimmy says. "She's obviously spineless, so if I threaten her with a firing she'll probably drop the whole thing, and after a while we can probably make her blow the both of us!" "Cool!" DW says.

So they work up this reprimand without consulting HR or Angie. Stupid mistake number 1. Stupid mistake number 2 is to actually file that memo with HR. Maybe they tried to sneak it into the file without telling anyone; maybe not. But obviously HR has reason, even without knowing the reprimand, to be looking at my wife's file. Something like this:

"Hmm," James was thinking, "before I write up this report on this harassment claim I better make sure I know Mrs. R's service date. Good thing that file cabinet's right there." Seeing the memo, he thinks, "Hey! What the hell is this? What the hell is Jimmy thinking?" So he takes the reprimand to Angie, whose response is "Oh, Jesus God. I am surrounded by idiots. They might as well have given her signed blank check. Must handle this, tout suit!"

Stupid mistake number was not to take into account my wife's Popeyeish frame of mind. ("I've had all I can stand, I can't stands no more!")

Skald the Rhymer

04-30-2008, 11:43 AM

Oh, Og, this is better than a Pit meltdown.

Has her supervisor had a history of being less than professional her?

Her titular supervisor, I am told, phones in his job, leaving the actual management of the department to his most senior employee.

Marley23

04-30-2008, 11:45 AM

I don't have any legal advice, but financially I'm rooting for you to take a tire iron to this company's groin. And a hearty backslap to your wife for standing up for herself, and - whatever the outcome - making these jackasses sweat.

OtakuLoki

04-30-2008, 11:46 AM

Oh, Og, this is better than a Pit meltdown.

This is a Pit meltdown. It's just happening in IMHO. :D

Want me to refresh your popcorn?

(With all due apologies to Skald, and Mrs. the Rhymer - I'm not trying to trivialize your pain, but there's something fascinating in seeing entrenched stupidity at this level....)

ivylass

04-30-2008, 11:47 AM

Maybe she can get both Jimmy and DW fired and get promoted.

No butter, OtakuLoki...watching my weight. :D

Pixilated

04-30-2008, 11:49 AM

Yup, with them asking for the return of the write up they made a serious boo-boo. If your wife hasnt already, I'd be taking home every piece of paper and not keeping anything there.

If wife files a retaliation claim with or without a harrassment claim, I wonder if any of those jerks will lose their jobs via the company owner/board of directors. If I owned a company and a relative via blood or marriage put my company at risk like that they would be out the door just as soon as my lawyer cleared it.

Really Not All That Bright

04-30-2008, 11:59 AM

Your definition of "proud" is correct. You cannot be proud of another person. You can only be proud of yourself. You are pleased with her decision.
Ahem.
proud

• adjective 1 (often proud of) feeling pride or satisfaction in one’s own or another’s achievements. 2 having or showing a high opinion of oneself. 3 conscious of one’s own dignity. 4 (often proud of) slightly projecting from a surface. 5 literary imposing; splendid.

Skald the Rhymer

04-30-2008, 12:06 PM

Yup, with them asking for the return of the write up they made a serious boo-boo.

I don't quite agree that it was a mistake. If my take on the situation is right, it was the least-stupid course of action available to them. As soon as James found out about the retaliation memo, he HAD to act to distance himself from it, or by virtue of his position he becomes complicit, regardless of his ignorance of the writing and giving of said memo. Likewise Angie. (At least, that was my understanding back when I was in HR; HR and management have a positive duty to stop such things, not merely not to perpetrate them.)

Now, what James and Angie don't know is whether my wife is aware of how potent a weapon DW and Jimmy have (literally!) handed her. If she's not aware of it, they must retrieve that reprimand without tipping their hand and without breaking the law--in other words, they only dare ask for it. If she is already aware of it, Jimmy (and probably DW) are both screwed no matter what they do, but James and Angie can minimize the company's exposure and their personal exposure by disavowing the memo. But if they do that, they must say as little as possible, because admitting that the memo was legally wrong implies that they should have acted earlier to stop the harassment.

Practically thinking, of course, they should also apologize. You accomplish a lot with apologies.

Anyway, that's what I think. I'm sure someone smarter than I will chime in soon.

If your wife hasnt already, I'd be taking home every piece of paper and not keeping anything there.

If wife files a retaliation claim with or without a harrassment claim, I wonder if any of those jerks will lose their jobs via the company owner/board of directors. If I owned a company and a relative via blood or marriage put my company at risk like that they would be out the door just as soon as my lawyer cleared it.

:: shrug::

Dag Otto

04-30-2008, 12:09 PM

Skald, in the OP you said that your wife started working there earlier this year. The fact she is a recent hire should work in her favor. In the short time that she has been there, has she been trained in the company's harrassment policy? If she has been there less than four months, then I think she pretty much HAS reported it immediately, even if HR thinks that she only has five minutes.

OtakuLoki

04-30-2008, 12:12 PM

Practically thinking, of course, they should also apologize. You accomplish a lot with apologies.

Which is exactly the sort of thinking that I'd expect from adults.

Which is why I'm not about to hold my breath waiting to hear about your wife having received an apology.

Really Not All That Bright

04-30-2008, 12:15 PM

Hello Again, I'm not a lawyer, but doesn't the second memo, acknowledging the error, trump the possible Million Dollar first memo?
IANAL.

As I understand it, the first memo came from her superior, and the second from higher-ups.

The first memo is evidence of retaliatory action by an agent of the employer, even if it doesn't alone prove anything. Also, the fact that the second memo was not from the same person as the first is almost in itself an acknowledgement that the details of the first memo constitute Bad News. In Florida at least, pretty much any communication which clearly comes from an agent of the employer is an action on the employer's part. The law says, essentially, that if you're going to write something down, either in an email, file note, office memo or whatever, you better make damn sure you mean it.

Were I the employer, I'd have a settlement offer on her desk tomorrow morning, before she retains an attorney, no matter how well my ass is covered.

Skald the Rhymer

04-30-2008, 12:24 PM

IANAL.

As I understand it, the first memo came from her superior, and the second from higher-ups.

The first memo is evidence of retaliatory action by an agent of the employer, even if it doesn't alone prove anything. Also, the fact that the second memo was not from the same person as the first is almost in itself an acknowledgement that the details of the first memo constitute Bad News. In Florida at least, pretty much any communication which clearly comes from an agent of the employer is an action on the employer's part. The law says, essentially, that if you're going to write something down, either in an email, file note, office memo or whatever, you better make damn sure you mean it.

Were I the employer, I'd have a settlement offer on her desk tomorrow morning, before she retains an attorney, no matter how well my ass is covered.

I think the second memo is Angie and James minimizing their personal exposure.

You know something? I don't really care about money, and I don't think my wife does either. She wants to be free of DW's harassment, and not to worry about losing her job, and for the company to acknowledge this was wrong.

Of course, so item number three will only happen in Narnia. No, scratch that. The whole thing would never have happened in Narnia, as Aslan would have solved DW's issues with a quick eating.