Battlestar Galactica 4.6 - "Escape Velocity" (spoilers ho)

[Cervaise]

Note on episode numbering: The network ordered 22 episodes for season four. Ron Moore & Co chose to use the first two for the standalone movie "Razor," and follow with a 20-episode season. "Razor," in the show bible, is episodes one and two, which makes this fourth episode actually episode six. Also, Colonial One used to be known as Colonial Heavy 798, Cylon model 8 should be model 7, the Viper Mark IIs are really Mark I-As but the military renumbered them at the request of the defense contractor, and River is made of chocolate. Hope that clears everything up.

Spoiler policy: If it's been aired, or if it's pure speculation about future events, no need for a spoiler box. If it's from a future episode, as revealed in promotional materials or interviews, or if it's speculation based on same, put it in a spoiler box, and label the box as to the general nature of its contents so we can better decide whether or not to take the risk of looking at it.

Example:

In the pilot episode of the spinoff series Caprica, we find out that the Cylon centurions have organically-grown biological brains and nervous systems created using genetic material fromPope Urban VIII.

Okay. So.

The plot steams ahead. Cally's a vanillasicle. Tory's gone dark. Lee's turning into Henry Waxman. Kara's trying to oil-paint her way back to Earth. Cylon disagreement has become a fight to the death. And River's still made of chocolate.

What the frak happens next?

[Hellestal]

To think about the business end of things before we watch it tonight, how is the show doing ratings-wise this season? I heard season 3 had a significant drop off. Is it holding steady so far? Where do you go to find this info?

[Skara_Brae]

The premiere (http://community.tvguide.com/blog-entry/TVGuide-News-Blog/Todays-News/Battlestar-Galatica-Returns/800036979) did well.

Not sure about the last episode...

[Hellestal]

The premiere (http://community.tvguide.com/blog-entry/TVGuide-News-Blog/Todays-News/Battlestar-Galatica-Returns/800036979) did well.

Not sure about the last episode...I found the TV By the Numbers (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/04/21/battlestar-galactica-nielsen-ratings-down-again-but-not-much/3441) website. Ratings are back down again to where they were for last season's finale.

In theory, I guess this doesn't matter too much since they're in production and finishing it off, but it still bothers me for some reason. A part of me figures that if more people liked what I liked (like Battlestar), then the big studios would make more shows that I like. I dunno if that's true, though. We'd probably just get a lot of low quality knock-offs (like the original Battlestar).

[Cervaise]

Official ratings don't include TiVo and other DVR watchers, which I'd be willing to bet real money has a much larger impact on BSG's numbers than average.

(Why are DVRs excluded from ratings? Because the primary consumers of ratings data are the advertisers. Ratings are not, and never were, intended to represent the number of viewers of a show in some abstract sense. Those metrics are taken almost solely as a means of selling the programs, and by extension the eyeballs attached to them, to the marketers.)

If TiVo et al. were included, I'm confident BSG's ratings would go up by a nontrivial amount.

Edit to add: For what it's worth, with the rise of the post-airing DVD market, this financial model is experiencing rapid evolution. But ratings methodology is still rooted in old thinking.

[Frazzled]

Amongst my group of friends there are very few who watch BSG. At a recent party the topic of BSG came up - those that had never seen it seemed to be bemused about how much those of us who do watch the show like it. I have the disks and freely loan them to people who would like to watch, but too many of them counter with "I don't like Sci Fi." I can't blame them, I was right there with them before I gave BSG a fair shake. Too much bad science fiction has doomed this show - too many people won't watch because of the genre or the name.

[alphaboi867]

Note on episode numbering: The network ordered 22 episodes for season four. Ron Moore & Co chose to use the first two for the standalone movie "Razor," and follow with a 20-episode season...

They did this because the cast is already contracted for up to 5 seasons of variable length. If they did Razor as seperate made-for-TV-movie they'd need to write new contracts for everybody in it.

[Cervaise]

Makes sense. Where did you hear or read that? Just curious.

[Mahaloth]

Makes sense. Where did you hear or read that? Just curious.

Me too.

[Mahaloth]

Did this episode start a minute or two early? My wife and I have it on at 10:00 and we've clearly missed some.

[MacTech]

Looks like Tory's definitely leaning more towards The Dark Side, reveling in the joy of being bad and eeevil

So, should she be renamed Darth Tory? does she want sharks with frickin' "la-ser" beams on their heads?

[levdrakon]

"That Shriek! She smelled like cabbage!"
:D :D :D

[Frazzled]

So, should she be renamed Darth Tory?

So say we all!

[Frazzled]

Not a bad episode, but not a terrific episode - by BSG standards - either.
On the plus side, this was not a one off episode which I'm glad to hear are behind us. They are still crafting a story and we get to see what is going on in the Cylon minds as they really struggle with who they are. All except Darth Tory of course, she is pleased to have been created perfect! :)
Many years ago I used to watch Star Trek the Next Generation. This is such a refreshing change from what I considered that shows biggest drawbacks. In ST:TNG if a character underwent something horribly traumatic he would show character depth by looking out a window while sad music played in the background. This show spends several episodes exploring the psyche, for good or bad, of the people in the fleet.

[Frazzled]

I thought for a moment we lost Racetrack this episode. That would have been simply unforgiveable. She is far and away my favorite bit character. A few episodes back I cracked up when she was playing strip poker with the guys in the pilots lounge (at Lee's party no less).

[Rubystreak]

My god, are Six and Tigh gonna frak?

[carnivorousplant]

"That Shriek! She smelled like cabbage!"
:D :D :D
Boiled cabbage.
What, you never been married?

[Bob55]

Amongst my group of friends there are very few who watch BSG. At a recent party the topic of BSG came up - those that had never seen it seemed to be bemused about how much those of us who do watch the show like it. I have the disks and freely loan them to people who would like to watch, but too many of them counter with "I don't like Sci Fi." I can't blame them, I was right there with them before I gave BSG a fair shake. Too much bad science fiction has doomed this show - too many people won't watch because of the genre or the name.

I'm not completely sure about that. I am a HUGE SciFi fan - I read SciFi, and watch a lot of SciFi. I've spent time watching crappy SciFi series on Fox that are canceled weeks later...just because it's SciFi...So now I've started to watch BSG, and I just cannot follow along. I could join any episode of Stargate and have some clue about the goals, but not in BSG. The entire episode is an amalgam of zoom ins, emotions, and not much getting accomplished. And I really, really try to follow because I want to like the show, but I just don't have the time to go back and watch 75 episodes just to get "caught up".

So I think there are some other factors here as to why it doesn't do so well, I don't think it's the standard "it's SciFi" works. I think it's much like the original series back in the 70s - either you were a cult follower of it and were around since day 1, or you had no clue what was going on. And this is coming from a SciFi person.

Believe me, I want to love it, I want to get into it, I want to look forward to it coming on (like I do with Stargate reruns that I've seen 5 times), but it just hasn't clicked yet. Most SciFi is sort of complicated, but I think BSG takes the cake - it's so complicated that even SciFi people can't figure out the plot.

[Terminus Est]

I thought for a moment we lost Racetrack this episode. That would have been simply unforgiveable. She is far and away my favorite bit character. A few episodes back I cracked up when she was playing strip poker with the guys in the pilots lounge (at Lee's party no less).
Second this. I sometimes wish that they'd do a Racetrack-centered episode. However I know that if they do this, then her days will be numbered (q.v. Kat).

[MacTech]

Aside from Darth Tory, it almost seemed like the other two Galactica-residing members of the Final Bunch (Chief....err Specialist, and Tigh) really wanted to "come out of the breadbox" as it were and were rather close to suffering a system software corruption and crash....

If I didn't know better, I would have almost thought that crusty ol' Tigh wanted to tell Six about his Toasterhood, I can only imagine Six's reaction if she discovered that she was interacting with one of The Five

Chief, he almost broke the "Prime Directive" (the first rule of Toaster Club is you *DO NOT* talk about Toaster Club, the second rule of Toaster Club is you *DO NOT TALK ABOUT TOASTER CLUB*) numerous times this episode

I wasn't a fan of the religious faction battling, personally, but then again, I think Balty himself, as a character Jumped the Shark when he was assimilated by Six's religious prattle and claptrap back in S1, I liked crusty old cynical Athiest Baltar, Science damn it!

Next week looks rather interesting, Mutiny on the Demetrius!

[Oslo Ostragoth]

The scene with Baltar trying to get into the commune was interesting. From his point of view, we see Head6 picking him up off the floor. From everyone else's point of view, we see a strangely contorted Baltar getting up off the floor, as if lifted by an invisible person.

Dang, I hope they clear up my confusion about Head6 some day.

[carnivorousplant]

I wasn't a fan of the religious faction battling, personally, but then again, I think Balty himself, as a character Jumped the Shark when he was assimilated by Six's religious prattle and claptrap back in S1, I liked crusty old cynical Athiest Baltar, Science damn it!
If they spent so much time on the religion aspect, religious crap it must be rather important to the plot. That indicates to me some crappy spiritual ending rather than the humans outwitting the toasters, or even better arriving at Earth to find NCC 1701 in orbit to blow the Cylons away.

[MacTech]

Dang, I hope they clear up my confusion about Head6 some day.
I look at it as something akin to the John Crichton/Scorpius/Harvey situation from Farscape....

John has Wormhole knowledge in his head, implanted by the Ancients, Scorpy wants that knowledge so he can create Wormhole weapons and use it to destroy the Scarran Empire, so Scorpy implants a Bio-Neural chip that contains a mental clone of his personality into John's head to extract the wormhole knowledge, Chip-Scorpy is supposed to stay hidden, but somehow, John's subconscious is able to interact with him....

John eventually gets the chip removed, but an echo, an imprint of Chip-Scorpy remains in John's head, John is more able to directly interact with this echo, a Neural Clone of Chip Scorpy, John dubs the clone "Harvey" (after the Invisible Rabbit of the same name)

Chip Scorpy was singleminded, occasionally possesing John, and preventing him from killing Scorpy, the NC started out this way, but through extended interaction with John, his memories, and his personality, Harvey developed his own personality, a strange mix of Scorpy's scientific intelligence and John's offbeat sense of humor, after a time, John began to, if not outright *trust* Harvey, to at least tolerate him, and to be fair, Harvey did work to save John's life many times, sometimes even working against Scorpy

I see HeadSix as Balty's version of Harvey, maybe Balty did have a neural chip in his brain, maybe he still does, maybe not, but HeadSix has more in common with him due to her interaction with Balty's memories and experience than she does with any "hardware" based Six, HeadSix is a Neural Clone of Six

[carnivorousplant]

I never watched Farscape.
No idea what you are talking about. You act like it was Trek or something. :)

[Lightray]

I liked that, during Baltar's sermon, there's his Six in the background... smiling down at Tory.

Also very interesting, that of the people we've seen who have seem-to-be-reality hallucinations:

- Caprica Six, who's seen her Baltar-in-her-head. a Cylon.
- Saul Tigh, who's seen himself shoot Adama, and is now seeing his dead wife. a Cylon.
- Galen Tyrol, who's just hallucinated Adama calling him a Cylon. a Cylon.
- and Gaius Baltar, who's had more hallucinations than all the rest of 'em put together. a ... human? Cylon #7?

[running piglet cheese]

Tory manipulated Baltar into his new religious mantra, everyone is perfect, while in bed with him. Don't really know where that's going.

When Roslin went to visit Baltar in the brig, did anyone else think she was going to ask for a healing? Wonder if that is how they will keep her from dying this time.

[Cervaise]

Not a bad episode, but not a terrific episode - by BSG standards - either.Really? I thought it was riveting. I was literally chewing on my knuckles during the Chief's meltdown in the bar.

And that moment of FX eye candy, too, with the suited pilot moseying along the landing deck, was pretty cool. I love that the producers keep finding new things in the world to show us.

Gonna watch it again before commenting further.

[ElvisL1ves]

I would have expected flight-deck safety rules to prevent that.

Adama overreacted to Tyrol's drunken rant about having had to settle for Callie due to the shortage of hot chicks on the Exodus. He was off the clock, not doing or even talking about Fleet matters or anything to do with his job in it, and was in the early stages of grief. Adama should have just let him alone, or cajoled him back to his quarters to sober up, or at least found a damn day-care provider for the rugrat. Busting him was a major misjudgment.

All Tyrol did at the funeral was grab Tigh's and Tory's arms, right?

Yep, C6 is frakking Tigh (looks like she's into the rough stuff, too - hope they agree on a safe word), and she's going to find out who he really is soon enough.

"Being a Cylon means you never have to say you're sorry. Or simply being a monotheist - you're not just forgiven, you're perfect."

Any notions on why the Cult of Baltar has taken root almost entirely among single mothers? Is there such a shortage of hot guys on the Exodus too that he looks good to them?

[Rilchiam]

Are you saying Baltar is not hot?

[ElvisL1ves]

Speaking as a straight guy: No. :D

[Sweetums]

Did anyone notice the council member saying something about colonial Mithras cultists?

So the cylons aren't the only monotheists in the game? A brief, but interesting statement.

[ElvisL1ves]

Yep. I took a hint from an earlier BSG thread, turned on the closed captions, and read the Geminon delegate's mention of "Mithrasists" being suppressed by the Emergency Order too.

Very nice speech from Roslin about "I'm dying and I don't give a shit about the rules anymore". McDonnell has been getting some juicy good scenes lately.

[muldoonthief]

Did anyone else notice the scene when Tory & Tigh confront Tyrol in his quarters after the funeral? The baby is crying, and Tigh says, "Are you gonna deal with that kid?" Tyrol distractedly replies, "He probably needs to be changed." Tigh says "All right", walks off camera, and the kid stops crying. Given that we see the baby alive & well later in the episode, I can only assume Tigh changed his diaper. Saul Tigh, babysitter extraordinaire.

[carnivorousplant]

If the raider identified Anders as a cylon, doesn't Six know that Tigh is a fellow traveler, as it were?

[ElvisL1ves]

Even if the skinjobs know everything the Raiders do, the only one of the Five they'd know about is Anders. But they haven't mentioned him at all, not that we've seen.

I'll stick with the analogy that the Raiders are like dogs - they can hear and smell things humans are not even aware of, but lack intelligence on the same scale. They are intensely loyal to their "masters" nonetheless, and won't turn on any of them.


Tigh knows Nick is half-Cylon, almost one of The Club, and must feel some small obligation toward him. Or maybe he can't take the damn crying either. Hell, Tory saved him, let Tory take care of him, I say.

[Archergal]

I was thoroughly bored with this episode. I want to see some plot advancement NOW.

I'm kinda tired of this show, alas.

[carnivorousplant]

I want to see some plot advancement NOW.


I don't want to whine about it, but I have a terrible fear that "Baltar as Messiah" was plot advancement.

[Daerlyn]

Did anyone else notice the scene when Tory & Tigh confront Tyrol in his quarters after the funeral? The baby is crying, and Tigh says, "Are you gonna deal with that kid?" Tyrol distractedly replies, "He probably needs to be changed." Tigh says "All right", walks off camera, and the kid stops crying. Given that we see the baby alive & well later in the episode, I can only assume Tigh changed his diaper. Saul Tigh, babysitter extraordinaire.

Yeah, rather than killing the kid, we can hear Tigh in the background making soothing parenty noises at Nicky (I watch with the sound turned way up). I thought it was cute, considering that Saul and Ellen never had kids (that I recall, anyways). But he did originally look at Tory first, obviously expecting her to do it. :D

[Mr. Excellent]

I really liked the conversation in Tyrol's quarters, with Tight and Tory pulling him in opposite directions.

Tigh: Be a man! Feel your pain!
Tory: We're cylons, we're perfect - you can shut that pain down.

Those two have each made their decision about whether to be human or Cylons - in their heads, at least - and it'll be interesting to see how Tyrol comes down.

[Cervaise]

Tigh: Be a man! Feel your pain!
Tory: We're cylons, we're perfect - you can shut that pain down.And yet Tigh goes to visit Six, asking, "Hey, y'know, about this whole pain-shutting-down thing..."

[ElvisL1ves]

it'll be interesting to see how Tyrol comes down.Good point about their exploring their own identities. Tyrol has the proof of his frak-up on Racetrack's Raptor to remind him that he is not perfect, so I'd say he'll stay "human" - even more so than the Baltarians.

[levdrakon]

If they spent so much time on the religion aspect, religious crap it must be rather important to the plot. That indicates to me some crappy spiritual ending rather than the humans outwitting the toasters, or even better arriving at Earth to find NCC 1701 in orbit to blow the Cylons away.Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Baltar mystical religious messiah thing either but it's probably important to the ending, otherwise, I see no point in keeping him alive and wasting my screentime.

I'd love a more hard-core scifi ending with the Fleet arriving into Earth space with the Cylons hot on their tail and both being confronted by a super-advanced Earth ship.

I see HeadSix as Balty's version of Harvey, maybe Balty did have a neural chip in his brain, maybe he still does, maybe not, but HeadSix has more in common with him due to her interaction with Balty's memories and experience than she does with any "hardware" based Six, HeadSix is a Neural Clone of Six
I'm pretty sure Ron Moore confirmed that HeadSix is not, and never was a chip. So, she's either purely a figment of Baltar's fragmented mind or she's magic.

Given that we see the baby alive & well later in the episode, I can only assume Tigh changed his diaper. Saul Tigh, babysitter extraordinaire.Yeah, that was cute.

If the raider identified Anders as a cylon, doesn't Six know that Tigh is a fellow traveler, as it were?
I'm not sure why she would. She hasn't been in communication with her fellow Cylons and I suspect Raiders aren't big on communicating in words. I think as far as the skinjobs are concerned, the Raiders just all started misbehaving and need some lobotomies. Remember, skinjobs can't think directly about the Final Five, but Raiders are probably indifferent about which Cylon they've just encountered.

And yet Tigh goes to visit Six, asking, "Hey, y'know, about this whole pain-shutting-down thing..."Well, you can't blame him for wondering. He's genuinely concerned how human or Cylon he is, and whether Cylons really can shut down pain or Tory is just a sociopath. Six didn't answer him directly either. She just said "I don't want to shut down the pain."

Good point about their exploring their own identities. Tyrol has the proof of his frak-up on Racetrack's Raptor to remind him that he is not perfect, so I'd say he'll stay "human" - even more so than the Baltarians.
Didn't Boomer find a bomb planted in her Raptor way back in season 1? Tyrol made the point he's not sure anything he's ever done wasn't just programming. I think he really wants to believe he fraked up and didn't do it on purpose due to his programming.

[Hellestal]

We have two facts of the show that in tandem seem to cause the most concern:

1) BSG is generally uninterested in the science.

2) There are inexplicable events that could potentially have religious causes.

This show does, indeed, have a focus on religious iconography. There are scriptures with legends, visions of the future, characters with destinies and so forth. But as I see things, this focus on religion is not to provide the characters of the show (or more importantly, we the viewers) with an easy simple answer tied up neatly in a pretty box.

Rather, the ambiguity of the religious prophecies and the multiple religious views show (to my mind) a deep and abiding interest in the human condition in the real world. The show has multiple religions because real human beings have multiple religions, and the show will ultimately refuse to offer a clean religious explanation because our world has no clean religious explanation.

No mystical being will suddenly show up and answer all our questions. Not in the show, and not in our own lives.

But that's not to say that "science" will solve all our questions either. Even in the real world, we don't have scientific explanations for absolutely everything. In fact, according to some philosophies of science, it is impossible to have a complete scientific understanding of the universe.

So the show, in keeping true with our own real-world experiences, will leave a few questions open, with either science or the gods as possible explanations, and each viewer will be left up to decide how best they want to interpret things. To do otherwise, to provide incontrovertible proof that the One God of the Cylons exists and that Baltar is his prophet, would work against the realism that this show has developed for so long.

And that realism, again, is based not on the show providing answers, but by withholding them.

Which is one reason why I frakkin love this show so much, and this episode in particular. Maybe I missed someone else pointing this out already, but Baltar has fundamentally changed as a character. He acted in this episode in favor of his new religion not because of wealth or power (Six: "Surely such a man must be magnificent. Larger than life. Godlike himself." Baltar: "It's not about that at all.") Head-Six played to his ego, like she'd done so many times before, and he didn't care. He was far more concerned with protecting his flock. Finally, he has turned a corner. Finally, he has become (slightly) less petty. He is now doing what he's doing because he thinks it's right.

He hasn't moved very far, not yet (witness his unwillingness to challenge the marine if it meant he might be hurt), but this is still a fundamental shift, and I'm excited to see where it leads. He is totally going to frak the fleet over yet again (I mean, he's Baltar), but this time he's going to do it not out of some sense of personal spite or pettiness, but because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

And I squealed with glee when Head-Six invisibly appeared to visibly lift him off the ground and forcibly pushed his face back into the butt of that guy's rifle. Shit, that was cool.

[Hellestal]

Didn't Boomer find a bomb planted in her Raptor way back in season 1? Tyrol made the point he's not sure anything he's ever done wasn't just programming. I think he really wants to believe he fraked up and didn't do it on purpose due to his programming.Yeah, Boomer found a bomb, and the implication was that she put there it herself. Her conscious mind didn't see it, and yet she almost set it off unconsciously when she and Crashdown found more water. Her evil programming didn't want her to succeed.

[msmith537]

I really liked the conversation in Tyrol's quarters, with Tight and Tory pulling him in opposite directions.

Tigh: Be a man! Feel your pain!
Tory: We're cylons, we're perfect - you can shut that pain down.

Those two have each made their decision about whether to be human or Cylons - in their heads, at least - and it'll be interesting to see how Tyrol comes down.


Interestingly, the Six in the brig told Tigh that experiencing pain was part of their learning process. IOW, implying they aren't sociopathic Terminators that just shut off pain or guilt in order to achieve their goals. So I wonder if Tory doesn't quite "get" being Cylon and it will create some problems later on.



Looks like the Chief (er...Specialist) hated Cally as much as the rest of us!

[Acsenray]

I enjoyed every scene in this episode.

However, one thing is foremost in my mind -- Brig Six was looking hotter than I've ever seen her. (eyes boggling)

[ElvisL1ves]

You mean the scenes where she looked like Ellen Tigh? :D

[levdrakon]

However, one thing is foremost in my mind -- Brig Six was looking hotter than I've ever seen her. (eyes boggling)I kept thinking, that's nice lip gloss. They provide that in Colonial jails?

[Merijeek]

When Roslin went to visit Baltar in the brig, did anyone else think she was going to ask for a healing? Wonder if that is how they will keep her from dying this time.

The show is ending - I don't think they are. If she's got weeks to live, all the rest of the episodes could contain just that small amount of time.

-Joe

[alphaboi867]

Makes sense. Where did you hear or read that? Just curious.
I can't find it, but it was in an interview with Moore (or possibly Eick). He mentioned that Razor technically the first two episodes of season 4, but it'd be set before season 3 and not address any cliffhangers.

...When Roslin went to visit Baltar in the brig, did anyone else think she was going to ask for a healing? Wonder if that is how they will keep her from dying this time.

They won't. This is the final season and Roslin just has to stick around until the finale. I liked that moment between her and Adama where they were talking about Cally's memorial service and she told Adama "I want you to know what I like." Has anyone else noticed that Roslin's wig is the same as her hair in the opera house scenes in Crossroads? Last Supper aside I'm realling starting to think the Roslin is the final Cylon. To bad we didn't get any scenes dealing with the Cylon civil war.

Did anyone notice the council member saying something about colonial Mithras cultists?

So the cylons aren't the only monotheists in the game? A brief, but interesting statement.

Have they even mentioned a non Greco-Roman deity before? They've used Greek and Roman names interchangeabley, but Mithras? Mithrasism was also a rival (all-male) mystery cult to Christianty at one point. I don't think they're monotheists though. Baltar's monotheisism wouldn't be as nearly shocking unless he were the first to claim that "My god is the only god; yours don't exist at all." Just imagine the shitstorm when it gets out that not only his he preaching blasphemy against the Lords of Kobol; he's worshpping the Cylon god! I think while the Colonials do have different sects emphasizing particular gods and godesses those sects don't go so far as to deny the existence of other dieties.

[Merijeek]

I don't want to whine about it, but I have a terrible fear that "Baltar as Messiah" was plot advancement.

Well, that and we see what's happening with three of the final four. Tigh is cracking up, Tory has definitely embraced the Dark Side, and Tyrol is beginning to be cut off from any and all positive human contact. I expect he'll be simple for Tory to manipulate from here on out.

Until he finds out what really happened to Cally. Then she's getting kilt.


I'd love a more hard-core scifi ending with the Fleet arriving into Earth space with the Cylons hot on their tail and both being confronted by a super-advanced Earth ship.


Deus Ex Humanis? No thanks.

-Joe

[Hellestal]

I watched this episode again today on Hulu, and some of my other thoughts on the show crystallized a bit better.

Last week, I withheld judgment on the "Is Tory evil?" question because we didn't have the aftermath of her decision. Was she being so ruthless because she felt she had no choice, or were there more superficial considerations at work? This week we've got more insight, and it pushes me firmly toward the "Tory is evil" camp. But it's not quite that simple: she seems to be falling in with Baltar in part because of religious fanaticism, and that's a captivating twist to what would otherwise be an annoying shallowness.

Baltar is doing what he thinks is right, which provides a salve for those weary women on Galactica (plus that one weird lookin dude).

But Tory is doing what she thinks is right because she's a perfect machine, which gives her the right to do what she wants.

Truly the two faces of religion: providing comfort to the distressed, and self righteousness for the wicked. Both aspects make sense to me. It's not unusual for the conquered to take up the religion of their conquerers. Meanwhile, the fact that this was originally the Cylon religion provides a nice easy justification for Tory, something she can latch onto to justify whatever she does without suffering any sharp pangs of conscience.

I'm wondering whether there's some broader historical investigation going on here about monotheism replacing polytheism in Western society.

With the other Cylons, it's further fascinating to me that Tyrol and Tigh are having extremely similar reactions to their own distress. They both claim to want to maintain their humanity, and they both sought out punishment for what they are. Tyrol provoked the admiral to demote him, whereas Tigh received an actual physical beating. They're both having "illusions", too. Tigh saw a vision of himself shooting Adama and saw Six as Ellen; Tyrol misheard the beginning of his conversation with Adama in the bar.

I'm not sure whether the fact that this is happening to both of them is an indication that some malevolent force is at work here.

[Mr. Excellent]

Question - how the heck is Tigh going to explain the beat-down he got from Six? "She got the jump on me, after I ordered out the guards, and also the monitoring crew." Seems like the first thing Adama would do is implement an "absolutely no alone time with Six" policy, or even a new "defenestrate Six" policy. :)

Also - it makes sense that they'd try to make Six lot even hotter than usual for this ep. From what she says, it's clear that Tigh's had a bit of a thing for her for a while now, and this is when he finally acts on it. We're seeing her very much through his eyes, even when she doesn't look like his dead wife - so of *course* they want her dialed up to eleven.

[Mr. Excellent]

Slight, and absolutely immature and shallow, hijack: Who do you think is hotter? Tory or Six?

Me, I'd say Tory, no contest. :D Anyone disagree?

[Merijeek]

Slight, and absolutely immature and shallow, hijack: Who do you think is hotter? Tory or Six?

Me, I'd say Tory, no contest. :D Anyone disagree?

I didn't get to watch this one in Hi-Def, so my TV was stretching the picture horizontally. So, what happened was Six had more of a round face and less of a mannish face. Looked much better than usual.

-Joe

[Lightray]

Have they even mentioned a non Greco-Roman deity before?
Adama's previous ship (from the episode with his old pilot buddy who'd been captured by the Cylons, and who has never shown up again) was named the "Valkyrie".

Slight, and absolutely immature and shallow, hijack: Who do you think is hotter? Tory or Six?

Me, I'd say Tory, no contest. :D Anyone disagree?
Six dressed up as Starbuck was way hotter than any of 'em when they're all tarted up.

[Mr. Excellent]

Adama's previous ship (from the episode with his old pilot buddy who'd been captured by the Cylons, and who has never shown up again) was named the "Valkyrie".


Six dressed up as Starbuck was way hotter than any of 'em when they're all tarted up.

Eh? When was she dressed as Starbuck?

[OpalCat]

I never watched Farscape.
No idea what you are talking about. You act like it was Trek or something. :)
This was pretty much my exact reaction to that post. Ha!

[Lightray]

Eh? When was she dressed as Starbuck?
Waaaaay back, in "Home, pt. 2". Baltar is in Galactica's brig, talking with (IIRC, naked) Six, who is snidely commenting on his attraction to Starbuck. He turns around, and suddenly she's in pilot's sweats with her hair pulled back like Starbuck -- and is smokin' hot.

[Mr. Excellent]

Waaaaay back, in "Home, pt. 2". Baltar is in Galactica's brig, talking with (IIRC, naked) Six, who is snidely commenting on his attraction to Starbuck. He turns around, and suddenly she's in pilot's sweats with her hair pulled back like Starbuck -- and is smokin' hot.

Oh, yah - you're right, she *was* smoking. I still contend, however, that Tory is frakking thermonuclear.

[OpalCat]

I probably don't count, because I'm a girl and mainly attracted to guys, but I think Tory is "very pretty" but not gorgeous, and I think that for how pretty she is, she's remarkably un-sexy. (Kind of like for how relatively not that attractive he is, David Cook on American Idol manages to be confusingly high on the sexiness scale.)

[Rubystreak]

Six is hotter. Tricia Helfer is the definition of hot.

This link is to NSFW pictures of Tricia Helfer from her Playboy shoot:

http:// nsfw-notsafeforwork.blogspot.com/2007/01/battlestar-tricia-helfers-nude-playboy.html

Remove space after the //. Judge for yourself. Agree with Opal that Tory is somehow not sexy to me, though she is pretty. Six exudes sex. But I say this as a straight woman, so what do I know?

Was anyone else surprised at how easily Chief was able to bait Adama into demoting him? I would have thought that Adama would have been able to see through Chief's tirade to the fact that Chief is deeply disturbed. It was interesting that Chief said, "You don't know what frakking club I'm in, because you don't ask the right questions!" Makes me think that, if Adama had been a little more patient and had questioned Chief, he would have confessed.

Also, I loved Roslin threatening Baltar. I wonder if she'll finally lash out at him as she has wanted to since forever as her dying act.

Lee is getting on my nerves. I know he's standing up for what he thinks is right, but as Roslin said, does no one remember how badly Baltar screws things up when he has power? Lee's petulant opposition of Roslin seems kind of childish to me, but I have never liked him, and Roslin, though a bit fascist, is usually right in the end.

How long will it take someone to notice Tigh's obsession with Six (and the resulting bruises?) Best line of the ep, "No, we are not going to talk about the fragile body of Gaius Frakkin' Baltar!"

Can I say it at last without getting shit for it? Tory is eeeeeeeeeevil! :D

[OpalCat]

Heh. I never denied she might be evil, just that one particular act didn't necessarily in and of itself prove that she was evil.

Thing with Tory: I can't even imagine her naked. With Six it's like you have a hard time not mentally imagining her clothing falling to the floor all the time.

[Frazzled]

Heh. I never denied she might be evil, just that one particular act didn't necessarily in and of itself prove that she was evil.

Thing with Tory: I can't even imagine her naked. With Six it's like you have a hard time not mentally imagining her clothing falling to the floor all the time.

For the record, I've imagined Tory naked.
And Six, and Boomer, and Racetrack, and .......

[Rubystreak]

The wig they had on Tricia Helfer this last ep looked horrible, though, I have to say. It looked better on the actress who played Ellen than it did on Six.

[Troy McClure SF]

I think Starbuck is way sexier than Six. Six was pretty cute as Ensign Ro's partner, but honestly, she has sharp knees (http://home.comcast.net/~speedyturkey/nothitit.jpg).

Tory, on the other hand, was the last straw my friend used to convince me to start watching. Ice cold, yet smoking hot. She and Starbuck makes me feel funny. Like when we used to climb the rope in gym class. Boomer & Racetrack would be the sexiest people in damn near any other show.

[Quartz]

Six is hotter. Tricia Helfer is the definition of hot.

This link is to NSFW pictures of Tricia Helfer from her Playboy shoot

Don't try to view the video linked on that page in the comments - AVG 8 says it's a trojan.

[Acsenray]

Lee is getting on my nerves. I know he's standing up for what he thinks is right, but as Roslin said, does no one remember how badly Baltar screws things up when he has power? Lee's petulant opposition of Roslin seems kind of childish to me, but I have never liked him, and Roslin, though a bit fascist, is usually right in the end.

I don't think he's being petulant or childish. What's the point of the human race surviving if humans don't any rights? And you can't rely on someone being "usually right" and go ahead let them be "bit fascist." Where human societies get into trouble is by relying on someone else to do the thinking for them.

[MacTech]

For the record, I've imagined Tory naked.
And Six, and Boomer, and Racetrack, and .......
I'll be in my bunk ;)

[Alessan]

Was anyone else surprised at how easily Chief was able to bait Adama into demoting him? I would have thought that Adama would have been able to see through Chief's tirade to the fact that Chief is deeply disturbed. It was interesting that Chief said, "You don't know what frakking club I'm in, because you don't ask the right questions!" Makes me think that, if Adama had been a little more patient and had questioned Chief, he would have confessed.



Adama knew exactly what Chief was doing (he even said, "Don't do this"), and if he had said what he said in private, the Admiral would have let him get it out of his system before having a very long talk.

But the fact that he spoke that way to a superior officer in front of dozens of other crew members forced Adama's hand. He had no choice but to discipline him on the spot.

Oh, and thaks for the pics. I've been looking for those.

[Rubystreak]

I don't think he's being petulant or childish. What's the point of the human race surviving if humans don't any rights? And you can't rely on someone being "usually right" and go ahead let them be "bit fascist." Where human societies get into trouble is by relying on someone else to do the thinking for them.

I'm not going to argue with you about fascism, a system of government that's only justfied when the survival of the state is in real, meaningful peril, such as when it's floating through space with its remaining 30,000 members. I'm just going to say that Roslin does what needs to be done to help the human race survive, and when Baltar is given power, he consistently screws things up at the cost of large numbers of human lives. I'd have said Roslin's always been right, but I'm not sure if she or Starbuck is right about where Earth is.

As for Lee, he has always annoyed me. Moreso when he's acting as a flunky for Tom Zarek.

[Rubystreak]

Adama knew exactly what Chief was doing (he even said, "Don't do this"), and if he had said what he said in private, the Admiral would have let him get it out of his system before having a very long talk.

But the fact that he spoke that way to a superior officer in front of dozens of other crew members forced Adama's hand. He had no choice but to discipline him on the spot.

I wasn't sure that "don't do this" meant "don't do this in public." He went on to say, "Don't do this to her memory" or something like that. If he had said, "I know this is just because you're grieving. Come to my office tomorrow," and then walked away, his hand wouldn't have been "forced." Even people who aren't Cylons sometimes freak out and say/do horrible things out of grief. If you're not going to judge someone's grief, then you don't, even if they are freaking out at you in ways you don't like.

Also, if Adama didn't demote Chief for his error with Racetrack's ship when it happened, why would he do it only after Chief was rude to him? That seems like a bad way to decide who should be demoted or punished for making a mistake at work.

[carnivorousplant]

That seems like a bad way to decide who should be demoted or punished for making a mistake at work.
Could be necessary for the plot. Could be the standard "Adama Gets Angry and Does the Wrong Thing" followed by Roslin or Apollo or Starbuck showing him the Right Thing To Do. :) I like Alessan's explanation, though.

[Cervaise]

Lee is getting on my nerves. I know he's standing up for what he thinks is right, but as Roslin said, does no one remember how badly Baltar screws things up when he has power? Lee's petulant opposition of Roslin seems kind of childish to me, but I have never liked him, and Roslin, though a bit fascist, is usually right in the end.This is yet another reason I'm so in love with this show and want to have its babies.* In the last couple of episodes, the portrayal of Roslin's accumulation of power and strictly enforced secrecy has been a less-than-subtle nod at the Bush White House, which makes her, simply by association, dramatically less sympathetic; her actions, clearly, are wrong. But then she says something like "you remember what Baltar was like with political power and now you want to let him make himself into a Messiah?" and we know that her rationale is absolutely, chillingly correct. Yet another example of how BSG so beautifully handles the "right for the wrong reasons and vice versa" theme. Lee is right, but being right may be wrong; and Roslin is wrong, but being wrong may be right.
I kept thinking, that's nice lip gloss. They provide that in Colonial jails?I bet the Sixes secrete cosmetics.


*But you don't have a womb. Where will the fetus gestate?

[Rubystreak]

Could be necessary for the plot. Could be the standard "Adama Gets Angry and Does the Wrong Thing" followed by Roslin or Apollo or Starbuck showing him the Right Thing To Do. :) I like Alessan's explanation, though.

If Adama had demoted Chief for disrespect to an admiral, that would be one thing. He demoted him for an error he made earlier in the day, which was not punished at the time, and was only punished after he blew up in the bar. That seems rather wrongheaded to me, more of an impulsive act of anger than discipline for making a dangerous mistake at work that could have cost human lives.

I mean, there aren't too many people who can do Chief's job left alive. He really can't be spared, unless he's more of a liability than he is useful. Maybe seeing Chief freak out convinced Adama that the error was not just a one off but the result of a deeper mental imbalance. If so, I hope we see Adama talking to Chief next ep and trying to help him. That's what Chief was begging for in that situation. I hope Adama realizes that.

ETA: I agree with Cervaise's take on why Roslin is "right" and Lee is "wrong" and vice versa. Everything we have learned is right in government tends to backfire in the situation they're dealing with in the BSG universe, so it's hard to know what the correct course of action is before you do it. It is what makes this show great-- the ambiguity, the moral angst.

Roslin believes the ends justify the means. Do they? It's much easier to believe they do when the consequences for the wrong ends = extinction of the human race. That's why I side with Roslin. I can see why someone wouldn't, but... I think events have borne out her stance several times.

[Rubystreak]

Though, upon further consideration, it's too late to stop Baltar's messiah-hood, and Roslin's law only made him look like a martyr. He should have been stopped long ago, but now, it's too late. So Cervaise is right, Roslin's rationale is correct but it can't be acted upon without being oppressive and leading to adverse consequences. What a mess.

[carnivorousplant]

Though, upon further consideration, it's too late to stop Baltar's messiah-hood, and Roslin's law only made him look like a martyr.
He seems to be more of a Rasputin than a Messiah. Are we sure that kid didn't have hemophilia? :)

[Acsenray]

I don't think the show is setting up Apollo to be wrong about freedom of speech and due process. And I don't think Roslin has been shown to be unequivocally right about all her decisions. I think the point is that they both think they're doing the right thing but no matter what, they're both going to be tragically wrong. It's not clear to me that Zarek would have been much different a president than Roslin.

And the very fact that so much is at stake is critical. Zarek's point is that Roslin's belief that only her decisions can save humanity is what makes her dangerous to humanity.

[levdrakon]

Galen didn't get demoted for screwing up earlier. He got demoted for being a dick to the admiral and couldn't get himself under control in front of a whole bar of people who are all the admiral's subordinates. You can't let that go. Adama gave him the option of going and cooling off. He didn't take it.

Roslyn has to handle the civilian side of things in a very different way than Adama has to handle the military side of things.

[Acsenray]

I'm not going to argue with you about fascism, a system of government that's only justfied when the survival of the state is in real, meaningful peril, such as when it's floating through space with its remaining 30,000 members.

I think the example of the Pegasus shows that even in such dire circumstances, it still might not be justified.

[alphaboi867]

...And the very fact that so much is at stake is critical. Zarek's point is that Roslin's belief that only her decisions can save humanity is what makes her dangerous to humanity.

I think Roslin & Adama are going end up dissolving the Quorom. Zarek isn't going to allowed to succeed Roslin.

[Rubystreak]

I don't think the show is setting up Apollo to be wrong about freedom of speech and due process.

I think he was able to see Roslin's point of view after witnessing the Baltar worship in person. The look on his face reflected the disgust that Roslin was feeling. He seemed to understand then what Roslin was trying to prevent, which he did not understand before. So while he was right that the implementation of Roslin's law would be oppressive, what he failed to realize is that the theory behind it was sound. His opposition to her seems knee-jerk to me because he fails to see the big picture. If he had said in that meeting, "How are we going to enforce this law in a way that doesn't come off as tyrannical and oppressive?" then it wouldn't have seemed so adolescent to me.

[Mr. Excellent]

It's not clear to me that Zarek would have been much different a president than Roslin.

Possibly worse, from a civil-liberties perspective. Remember, Zarek *was* President, briefly, following the exodus from New Caprica - it only lasted a week or two before he stepped down in favor of "Vice-President Roslin", but he used that time to establish vigilante squads with a mandate to "disappear" collaborators with the Cylon-dominated New Caprica government. I think Tom Zarek's alarm at Roslin's authoritarian streak is sincere - but he's got a nasty one himself.

[Lightray]

Even if Lee understood why Roslyn made her executive order, and agrees with her that something needs to be done about Baltar... he'll never be able to go along with her methods. That's just who he is. He always does the right thing* no matter how disasterous the consequences.

And everybody knows this: his father, Laura, Tom Zarek. All of 'em.

It's not that he fails to see the big picture, it's that he just doesn't think the big picture is as important as the bigger picture of his own moral compass.

* except, maybe, in his frakked-up personal life.

[levdrakon]

It's not that he fails to see the big picture, it's that he just doesn't think the big picture is as important as the bigger picture of his own moral compass.

* except, maybe, in his frakked-up personal life.Well said. That lawyer guy last season observed he was just fucking with daddy. Hell, who hasn't observed that? First or second ep this season Lee told Zarek something to the effect that "sometimes you need a benevolent dictator" but then he wiffle waffles and decides to take the moral high road. It seems like Lee runs around looking for, and pissing off mommy and daddy figures. When he told Baltar "I don't do these things for you" I almost choked. What do you do these things for kid?

[Rubystreak]

Even if Lee understood why Roslyn made her executive order, and agrees with her that something needs to be done about Baltar... he'll never be able to go along with her methods. That's just who he is. He always does the right thing* no matter how disasterous the consequences.

I can agree with this.

It's not that he fails to see the big picture, it's that he just doesn't think the big picture is as important as the bigger picture of his own moral compass.

He and Roslin see different pictures. I'm not sure his picture is bigger. Morality doesn't matter if there's no human race to be moral. I think that's what Roslin thinks, anyway. It remains to be seen which of them will turn out to be right.

* except, maybe, in his frakked-up personal life.

He's another example of what the Chief was saying about people winding up with their second choices. It's interesting that his moral compass doesn't extend to infidelity or patronizing prostitutes. Maybe that's why, when he gets on his high horse, it makes me cringe.

[Merijeek]

He's another example of what the Chief was saying about people winding up with their second choices. It's interesting that his moral compass doesn't extend to infidelity or patronizing prostitutes. Maybe that's why, when he gets on his high horse, it makes me cringe.

Is there any reason to believe that prostitution in the Colonies was illegal?

-Joe

[Hellestal]

It's interesting that his moral compass doesn't extend to infidelity or patronizing prostitutes. Maybe that's why, when he gets on his high horse, it makes me cringe.And yet some of the most inspirational and influential historical leaders had incredibly similar flaws. Despite their frakked up personal lives, they set examples in public that we still admire today.

[Rubystreak]

Is there any reason to believe that prostitution in the Colonies was illegal?

-Joe

It's not illegal, based on the ep Black Market, but it wasn't looked on as kosher either. Even Tom Zarek is a bit scandalized that Lee was there, on Cloud 9 with a prostitute. The people Shevan worked for also sold children into slavery, so while it may not be illegal, it certainly wasn't aboveboard.

And yes, even the great leaders who we still admire today should be looked at askance for their moral inconsistencies. It means they don't have an unerring moral compass. But then, no one on the show does. The Lee/Roslin conflict is definitely necessary to the plot. I guess I've just always found Lee to be a bit of a self-righteous twerp.

[Lightray]

Is there any reason to believe that prostitution in the Colonies was illegal?
*sigh* Alas, poor forgotten sociolators. :(

[Acsenray]

And yes, even the great leaders who we still admire today should be looked at askance for their moral inconsistencies. It means they don't have an unerring moral compass.

From my perspective, it means that there are at least two levels of morality. One is the morality you owe to the public. The other is your personal morality. So long as a leader is moral in a public sense, that is, with regard to his or her exercise of power, so far as I am concerned they can indulge their sexual desires with anyone who's willing. Apollo's morality with regard to his personal sexual behaviour has absolutely no bearing, in my view, on his moral stances with regard to the exercise of power over the public.

But then, no one on the show does. The Lee/Roslin conflict is definitely necessary to the plot. I guess I've just always found Lee to be a bit of a self-righteous twerp.

No more than Roslin, in my view.

Oh, and remember, Roslin herself had been having a long-term affair with a married man. Sexual fidelity and patronage of prostitutes really doesn't affect the analysis of whether either Roslyn or Apollo or either of them is correct about governance policy.

[Acsenray]

Put it this way ...

It is suspected that part of the reason that the Pegasus went the way it did was because it didn't have a fleet of civilians to balance its leadership's considerations. In other words, without Roslin, Adama might have become more like Cain.

Similarly, within civilian government, there must be a balance. Because no matter how much of a "hero" or "visionary" an individual leader might be, he or she will be wrong sometimes. Without an effective Zarek or Apollo in play, Roslin is too free to make mistakes. And without an effective Zarek or Apollo in play, there's more room for a Baltar to step in and take over.

Human governance is never about blindly following an anointed leader, even in such dire circumstances. Because any such leader is inevitably going to go wrong at some point. Look at Tigh, the military dictator who ended up killing people over coffee.

[Rubystreak]

It is suspected that part of the reason that the Pegasus went the way it did was because it didn't have a fleet of civilians to balance its leadership's considerations. In other words, without Roslin, Adama might have become more like Cain.

She would definitely get her way more often. I think comparing her to Helena Cain is an exaggeration; can't imagine Roslin authorizing gang rape as torture, for instance. It really depends on what the big picture is, if Roslin's means justify her ends. We won't know that until the end of the show, if we know it at all. I am one of the people who wanted her to successfully steal the election from Baltar, though. And as much as I love the character of Baltar, if there were real justice in the BSG world, he would have been executed for treason.

Similarly, within civilian government, there must be a balance. Because no matter how much of a "hero" or "visionary" an individual leader might be, he or she will be wrong sometimes. Without an effective Zarek or Apollo in play, Roslin is too free to make mistakes. And without an effective Zarek or Apollo in play, there's more room for a Baltar to step in and take over.

Yeah, this is all fine. Doesn't make Zarek or Lee a more likeable character to me (I like Zarek better because we're not supposed to like him). That's why I said Lee came off as petulant and childish. Roslin comes off like a mean mommy-- she was a school teacher after all, and sometimes acts like she's still in the classroom. I echo levdrakon's sentiments about why Lee seems adolescent to me. He's supposed to be providing moral balance and principled opposition, but it can appear that he's just being contrary because Roslin was snippy to him in a meeting, as per last week.

Human governance is never about blindly following an anointed leader, even in such dire circumstances. Because any such leader is inevitably going to go wrong at some point. Look at Tigh, the military dictator who ended up killing people over coffee.

/civics lecture.

Oh, Tigh is no Laura Roslin. I think we can agree on that. It would also be cool if you could not mischaracterize my opinion as wanting the characters on the show to "blindly follow an anointed leader." There are far too many people who would fancy themselves the anointed leader for that ever to work out. I think what it comes down to for me is that I find Roslin more sympathetic than the others, even when she goes about things the wrong way (why couldn't she find a way to accommodate Starbuck, as Adama did, for instance?). I understand her motives and I think they're good, though the implementation has been problematic at times. With Lee, half the time I don't think he knows why the hell he's doing what he's doing; he's being contrarian for it's own sake, not because he knows what's right better than anyone else. That's why things never turn out the way he wants them to or thinks they will, and why his personal life is a disaster.

[Rubystreak]

No more than Roslin, in my view.

OK, that's fine, we can agree to disagree, then, because there are a lot of epithets I could use to describe Roslin, but "twerp" is not one of them. Self-righteous, sure, everyone on the show is.

Oh, and remember, Roslin herself had been having a long-term affair with a married man. Sexual fidelity and patronage of prostitutes really doesn't affect the analysis of whether either Roslyn or Apollo or either of them is correct about governance policy.

Don't forget that the pimp who was in charge of Lee's prostitute was also buying and selling children for sexual slavery. Lee gave that man money and patronized his business. That steps beyond the bounds of his personal sexual practices and into the realm of public policy. And the discussion is about moral compasses, not about governance policy. I don't think either Roslin or Lee have a lock on an ideal governance policy, do you?

[Frazzled]

If Lee was on Earth he would be a member of the ACLU. He sees the big picture so clearly he fears that any deviation only will open doors that will lead to destruction of the government. In this case, he may be right. Roslyn wants to have a special judicial committee at her disposal so she can be judge, jury, and executioner. By the standards expressed in the show that's wrong, even if her intents are noble. She wants to limit religious assembly for Baltar. Supposedly it won't affect anybody else but they point out in the show that if she limits assembly then it will affect other religious groups as well. Roslyn reassures everybody that this law is only meant for Baltar but that's the problem; it's wrong for a government to single out specific individuals for special treatment. Lee is right, even if Baltar disgusts him, he has every right to be treated by the same standards as everybody else in the fleet. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and Roslyn is showing signs of corruption via her actions. Her reasons sound reasonable and just, she has too much to do and not enough time to do it in so she is taking shortcuts. But Lee is right, the shortcuts she is taking will have long term ramifications and from his perspective, she is just a person who doesn't deserve special powers.

[Rubystreak]

Maybe you guys are right and I'm letting my overall dislike of the character of Lee get in the way of my understanding of the situation. It seemed to me like, last week, he was all set to defend her in the Quorum meeting, but then she was snippy with him and he decided he was going to take her down out of sheer contrariness. Am I remembering this wrong?

I think that Roslin is going to find a way to get to Baltar this season before she dies. I sympathize with her incredible frustration that this person can get away with horrendous acts of treason that she can't prove or punish him for.. AND NOW people are worshiping him and making a messiah out of him. Makes for a good story, but I can see Roslin's POV here. You are right that making generalized laws just to strike out at a particular person doesn't really work that well. It sure didn't in the last ep.

[Surbey]

Did anyone miss Callie's bitching this week? I swear to Christ, I'm no longer afraid to watch this show. I'm not sure what this means about me but during that montage of Chief's where he punched Callie made me smile, just a little. :)

[Lightray]

Maybe you guys are right and I'm letting my overall dislike of the character of Lee get in the way of my understanding of the situation. It seemed to me like, last week, he was all set to defend her in the Quorum meeting, but then she was snippy with him and he decided he was going to take her down out of sheer contrariness. Am I remembering this wrong?
Remember that Lee had just annoyed Roslyn by defending Baltar. His defense of her in the Quorum was, in a way, his extending an olive branch to her: "let's be friends, like we used to be" as it were.

Roslyn slapped him down. She didn't want to be friends.

And, in doing so, she basically confirmed what Zarek had implied to Lee about her. Remember that Lee has thought highly of both Roslyn and Zarek -- but he's as pigheaded as his father, and has disagreed with all of 'em even so.

You seem to be allowing your mislike of Lee, and like of Laura, to color how you're viewing their actions. They're all deeply, deeply flawed characters. (Thank goodness.)

[Acsenray]

In other words, without Roslin, Adama might have become more like Cain.

She would definitely get her way more often. I think comparing her to Helena Cain is an exaggeration; can't imagine Roslin authorizing gang rape as torture, for instance.

I suspect you misread something. I'm saying that the civilian fleet that probably helped prevent the Galactica from becoming Pegasus.

[Kokopilau]

And the very fact that so much is at stake is critical. Zarek's point is that Roslin's belief that only her decisions can save humanity is what makes her dangerous to humanity.

Which is true. We've already seen one major example of how, if Roslin had gotten her way in "making the hard decisions for the good of humanity", they'd all be dead, when she wanted to pitch Helo's Sharon out of the airlock.

[CJJ*]

Interestingly, the Six in the brig told Tigh that experiencing pain was part of their learning process. IOW, implying they aren't sociopathic Terminators that just shut off pain or guilt in order to achieve their goals. So I wonder if Tory doesn't quite "get" being Cylon and it will create some problems later on.
I think there's something to this. It seems the Cylons have a problem dealing with strong emotions--Tory's "getting their wires crossed" comment regarding pleasure and pain seems telling after seeing Tigh ask for "more" of the beating Six gave him. And I wonder if it's having an effect on Tyrol--is overpowering grief getting "crossed" with masochistic rage?

These same conflicts, of course, exist in humans, but they seem far more pronounced among the Cylons--witness Cavil and Boomer kissing (ewww!) as they slaughtered the other models' base ships in the last episode...

[Rubystreak]

Remember that Lee had just annoyed Roslyn by defending Baltar. His defense of her in the Quorum was, in a way, his extending an olive branch to her: "let's be friends, like we used to be" as it were.

Roslyn slapped him down. She didn't want to be friends.

Hardly a sound moral reason for opposing her. Thus, it is as I suspect it was: Lee is opposing Roslin because she was pissy to him and rejected his olive branch. I concede that he had it right this time, though again, his reasons for opposing her are less morally lofty than he'd like to think.

You seem to be allowing your mislike of Lee, and like of Laura, to color how you're viewing their actions. They're all deeply, deeply flawed characters. (Thank goodness.)

I never denied anyone's flaws. Roslin is far from perfect and sometimes goes to far with her black and white thinking about right and wrong. I simply find Lee's flaws and overall personality more annoying and have more sympathy towards Roslin. I also understand why she wanted to airlock Helo's Sharon. Events thus far would indicate that would have been a wrong decision; however, I still have my suspicions about Athena, and though they might not be borne out by the show, I can understand why anyone wouldn't trust a Cylon to be a member of Galactica's crew. It still feels like a bad idea to me.

I suspect you misread something. I'm saying that the civilian fleet that probably helped prevent the Galactica from becoming Pegasus.

I didn't misread anything. I don't think Galactica could turn into Pegasus even if there were no checks on Roslin. Cain was much more of a martinent that Roslin, and under her totalitarian rule things happened that Roslin would never allow. Roslin (and any ruler) needs the perspective offered by a democratic government and benefits from it.

[Acsenray]

Thus, it is as I suspect it was: Lee is opposing Roslin because she was pissy to him and rejected his olive branch.

Wow, you seem a lot more confident about pulling out these kinds of motives than seems supportable from the text. I think every character is much more complex than this. It's pretty clear Apollo didn't do what he did just because he felt slighted by Roslin. I think, at least partially, he was trying to find reasons to believe that Zarek was wrong about her and she failed to give him any.

I didn't misread anything. I don't think Galactica could turn into Pegasus even if there were no checks on Roslin. Cain was much more of a martinent that Roslin, and under her totalitarian rule things happened that Roslin would never allow. Roslin (and any ruler) needs the perspective offered by a democratic government and benefits from it.

I have posited a situation in which Galactica has no civilian fleet. In such a case, there would be no Roslin. So Roslin's personal traits wouldn't really be relevant.

[Frazzled]

I think Lee's reasons for opposing her are sound, but his methods of opposing her are crap. In the meeting I had the impression that Lee was going to take Roslyn aside after the meeting and confront her with Zarek's evidence in private. Once Roslyn slapped him down (he deserved it, what he did really was very insulting to Roslyn even if he didn't mean it to be) he reacted by calling her out in public. This is exactly the same thing that happened in season 1 with Starbuck. Remember, he was pissy with her, she punched him in the face and he immediatly punched her back. This time it was just with words. To quote Starbuck, "Same old Lee."

The last time Roslyn was having visions we as the audience were privy to what she was seeing. I think she's still having visions but the writers are hiding them from us this time. It might explain some of her behaviours.

[Rubystreak]

Wow, you seem a lot more confident about pulling out these kinds of motives than seems supportable from the text.

Wow yourself... I think I've offered ample textual evidence. Lightray's version of events and Frazzled's take on it matched my recollections, wherein Lee patronizingly tried to "support" Roslin as an olive branch, and when she didn't want it, and gave him the rough side of her tongue, that's when he became oppositional in the meeting. Rewatch the episode and see. It's not like he doesn't have a history of knee-jerk contrarianism. That's not to say he has no principles, but sometimes they seem like a justification after the fact for following his basic nature.

It's pretty clear Apollo didn't do what he did just because he felt slighted by Roslin. I think, at least partially, he was trying to find reasons to believe that Zarek was wrong about her and she failed to give him any.

One snippy moment and she "failed to give him any" reason to think that Zarek wasn't right about her? Isn't that jumping to conclusions awfully fast? Would that conversation in Quorum gone down differently if she was sweet and nice to him? I think it would have, and it also would have if he'd thought through what he said and how she reacted, which he didn't because he immediately attacked back.

We have seen Lee defying anyone he considers an authority and being reactive instead of reflective at times. He lashes back out of ethics and out of reflex, not necessarily in that order. That's not to say it's not a healthy corrective for Roslin (or Starbuck, or his father, or the Colonies), nor that he isn't rooted in principle, but it's alo part of his inherent nature. Normally, I'd love a character like this. However, Lee comes off as adolescent and petulant when he does it, which is part of why the character annoys me. He seems to annoy the other characters on the show as well when he acts this way, so it's not just my biases causing this opinion of him.

I have posited a situation in which Galactica has no civilian fleet. In such a case, there would be no Roslin. So Roslin's personal traits wouldn't really be relevant.

So you're saying Bill Adama would be the Cain analogue? I don't see it. Tigh, maybe could have gone down that road, but he's not the Admiral. I think Pegasus was what it was because of the environment created by Cain's leadership and the subordinates she had working for her. Also, if you're saying the "civilian fleet" is what moderated the military leadership on Galactica, you're largely crediting the Roslin government, aren't you?

[Lightray]

Hardly a sound moral reason for opposing her. Thus, it is as I suspect it was: Lee is opposing Roslin because she was pissy to him and rejected his olive branch. I concede that he had it right this time, though again, his reasons for opposing her are less morally lofty than he'd like to think.
No. Lee was going to oppose Roslyn whether or not she accepted his olive branch. Because he's Lee. He's all about Doing The Right Thing.

When Laura got all pissy and rejected his olive branch, she just decided in which venue Lee would stand up to her -- in public, instead of in private. In private definately would've been easier on her, and she might've actually had a chance for things to go her way with only Lee to convince into silence. In front of the Quorum, as she forced matters? no way.

And let's note that Laura knew that is how Lee would react. She said as much to his father. That whole confrontation torpedoing her attempts to silence Baltar was all her fault.

Laura being pissy to Lee had nothing to do with Lee's opposition to her. Her pseudo-fascist executive order was the reason for that.

[Rubystreak]

When Laura got all pissy and rejected his olive branch, she just decided in which venue Lee would stand up to her -- in public, instead of in private. In private definately would've been easier on her, and she might've actually had a chance for things to go her way with only Lee to convince into silence. In front of the Quorum, as she forced matters? no way.

She forced matters? I don't see it that way. He decided to bring the issue up that she wasn't going to mention until the following week. He did this because he was pissed that she smacked him down. And THAT is where my feeling about his behavior comes from.

And let's note that Laura knew that is how Lee would react. She said as much to his father. That whole confrontation torpedoing her attempts to silence Baltar was all her fault.

Are you saying that she knew that he was going to bring up one subject because she was short with him about something else? How could she?

Laura being pissy to Lee had nothing to do with Lee's opposition to her. Her pseudo-fascist executive order was the reason for that.

I disagree. I think it had a lot to do with his opposition: the context, nature, and extent of it.

[Frazzled]

Laura being pissy to Lee had nothing to do with Lee's opposition to her. Her pseudo-fascist executive order was the reason for that.

Nothing to do with Lee's opposition to her this time :) It was Lee's opposition to her in Baltar's case that opened up this whole sordid mess. Laura believes if she can't get her way through public means she'll get her way through private means. So what if it isn't 100% scandal free, she knows what she's doing is for everybody's own good. How dare Lee stand in her way!

[Lightray]

Are you saying that she knew that he was going to bring up one subject because she was short with him about something else? How could she?

I disagree. I think it had a lot to do with his opposition: the context, nature, and extent of it.
Obviously Laura did not know that Zarek had leaked that particular file to Lee, and so did not know that he would be bringing that up, specifically. But. She set the tone of their subsequent interaction by her pissy dismissal of his proffered olive branch.

All of the consequences of her silencing Baltar came from that choice on her part. Had she been more cordial to Lee, he no doubt would have approached her privately about his concerns. She chose to be dismissive and confrontational... and got confrontation, in return.

Lee was not the one throwing the tantrum. Laura was. Because Lee had helped Baltar. And the results of her tantrum bit her in the ass, and she's still blaming Lee for it biting her in the ass.

There is No Way that Laura Roslyn did not realize her secret little order was shady. Tom Zarek -- of all people -- thought it was shady. That's like having Jabba the Hutt comment that you might've gone a bit overboard in cheating on your income taxes.

And, seriously, you believe that Lee only opposed Roslyn's order against Baltar because he was sulking? Seriously? That if he hadn't been sulking, he would have let her suppression order go by? What past actions of his make you think that was ever a possibility?

Zarek knew exactly how Lee would react. That's why he gave the file to him. And Roslyn knew how Lee -- and everyone else -- would react. That's why she kept it secret. Lee's opposition was certain. All that was in doubt was when and where and how. And Laura's actions were what determined that.

[Frazzled]

He decided to bring the issue up that she wasn't going to mention until the following week.

Laura had no intent to bring her kangaroo court into the open. Lee forced her hand with his actions and she was pissed, hence the reason she was complaining about it to the senior Adama.

[Frazzled]

And, seriously, you believe that Lee only opposed Roslyn's order against Baltar because he was sulking? Seriously? That if he hadn't been sulking, he would have let her suppression order go by? What past actions of his make you think that was ever a possibility?


I think I pretty much agree with Rubystreak on this. I don't think she's saying he opposed her actions because he was sulking, just that he gave Laura a hearty "Frak You" and made the issue public when he originally was probably going to confront her quietly until he heard her side in private.

[Rubystreak]

Obviously Laura did not know that Zarek had leaked that particular file to Lee, and so did not know that he would be bringing that up, specifically. But. She set the tone of their subsequent interaction by her pissy dismissal of his proffered olive branch.

I don't think she knew what the consequences of her verbal roughness would be. I think she would have soft soaped him had she realized, don't you?

All of the consequences of her silencing Baltar came from that choice on her part. Had she been more cordial to Lee, he no doubt would have approached her privately about his concerns. She chose to be dismissive and confrontational... and got confrontation, in return.

One could argue that his pompous and patronizing olive branch provoked her, considering their recent alienation due to his role in the Baltar acquittal. It seems presumptuous to me.

Lee was not the one throwing the tantrum. Laura was. Because Lee had helped Baltar. And the results of her tantrum bit her in the ass, and she's still blaming Lee for it biting her in the ass.

She doesn't like him right now because he helped Baltar. However, I don't see it has her tantrum. I see it as his (one of many he's had). He may have been in the right on the issue, but that doesn't mean he didn't also have a hissy fit.

There is No Way that Laura Roslyn did not realize her secret little order was shady. Tom Zarek -- of all people -- thought it was shady. That's like having Jabba the Hutt comment that you might've gone a bit overboard in cheating on your income taxes.

Of course she knew it was shady. She thinks the ends justify the means. While I think she was wrong because of the broad brush her law painted with, and the heavy handed enforcement, a I can fully sympathize with her frustration over Baltar and with Lee.

And, seriously, you believe that Lee only opposed Roslyn's order against Baltar because he was sulking? Seriously? That if he hadn't been sulking, he would have let her suppression order go by? What past actions of his make you think that was ever a possibility?

No, but he wouldn't have done what he did in public, the way he did, either. I have said, over and over, that is was his childish petulance that annoyed me, not the substance of his position. He wanted to put her dick in the dirt and he did it.

Zarek knew exactly how Lee would react. That's why he gave the file to him. And Roslyn knew how Lee -- and everyone else -- would react. That's why she kept it secret. Lee's opposition was certain. All that was in doubt was when and where and how. And Laura's actions were what determined that.

How could she have determined his actions if she didn't even know that he knew about the order? I think she was reacting to his faux show of support, and then she got the horns from him on an unrelated topic. Would he have opposed it anyway? Yes. Would there maybe have been compromise if he wasn't having a snit fit at the time? Very possibly. I think our fundamental difference in interpretation here comes from who started the assholery in this situation. That, I guess, is a matter of interpretation.

Bottom line: Tom Zarek is playing everyone like a fiddle. Good for him, I guess. Wonder what else he has up his sleeve.

[Acsenray]

Wow yourself... I think I've offered ample textual evidence.

The text is full of ambiguity. There is evidence for multiple understandings, and, most likely, all of them are true to some extent.

It's not like he doesn't have a history of knee-jerk contrarianism. That's not to say he has no principles, but sometimes they seem like a justification after the fact for following his basic nature.

If you're suggesting that he discovers his principles only after being contrary, I disagree.

So you're saying Bill Adama would be the Cain analogue? I don't see it. Tigh, maybe could have gone down that road, but he's not the Admiral. I think Pegasus was what it was because of the environment created by Cain's leadership and the subordinates she had working for her.

I never said that Adama would become exactly like Cain, but there would be less influence on him on one side. Even slight changes in circumstances can have dramatic influences on outcomes.

Also, if you're saying the "civilian fleet" is what moderated the military leadership on Galactica, you're largely crediting the Roslin government, aren't you?

You're missing several levels of subtlety here. It has never been my position that Apollo is exactly right and that Roslin is exactly wrong. Every character is right and wrong to various extents. Every character has correct and incorrect motives to some extent. The whole theme of the show is that being human is never unequivocally good or evil, right or wrong, and, in fact, looking for who's right and who's wrong either in specific circumstances or more generally is missing the point.

From another angle: Ron Moore is an atheist or an agnostic. But all of the characters in the show are struggling with religion, belief, faith. Do you really think that Moore is setting up a story whose purpose is to show you the character whose answer is right?

[Rubystreak]

The text is full of ambiguity. There is evidence for multiple understandings, and, most likely, all of them are true to some extent.

Right. You said I didn't have enough textual evidence. I do. Thus, my interpretation is true to some extent. It would be nice if that could be acknowledged instead of you telling me I'm wrong.

If you're suggesting that he discovers his principles only after being contrary, I disagree.

His enactment of his principles is often dictated by his reflexive nature. I also think he sometimes fails to see the long-term consequences of his stances, and doesn't always know WHY he acts as he does. That doesn't means he's wrong or unprincipled, only that he can be impulsive and unreflective. And his tone grates on me.

I never said that Adama would become exactly like Cain, but there would be less influence on him on one side. Even slight changes in circumstances can have dramatic influences on outcomes.

Yeah, OK, another agree to disagree. I can't see Adama becoming Cain-like. She shot an officer on the bridge because he had a principled disagreement with her orders, didn't she? And authorized the rape-torture of Six. Way over the top, not things I see Adama doing under any circumstances.

You're missing several levels of subtlety here. It has never been my position that Apollo is exactly right and that Roslin is exactly wrong.

Interestingly... neither am I. So what the hell are we arguing about here? I have acknowledged the various ways in which Roslin and Lee were right and wrong in this situation. However, my feeling is still that Lee acted childish in the way he went about his opposition of Roslin. And arguing about that is futile because I think people have offered their take on it and I still see that scene the way I see it... and the text can support my interpretation, so I'm OK with it if you don't agree.

in fact, looking for who's right and who's wrong either in specific circumstances or more generally is missing the point.

I'm relieved to find, then, that I haven't missed the point. And I think that's true of ANY argument, so that's something for you to consider.

From another angle: Ron Moore is an atheist or an agnostic. But all of the characters in the show are struggling with religion, belief, faith. Do you really think that Moore is setting up a story whose purpose is to show you the character whose answer is right?

What? I don't know why you're bringing this up. I think you're trying to say that I think there's one right interpretation and one wrong one, and that's the WRONG way to look at it, but this is all getting too circular for me now.

[Lightray]

If you're suggesting that he discovers his principles only after being contrary, I disagree.
This, I think, is what is sticking in my craw here. Apollo wears his principles on his sleeve -- readily apparent for anyone to see. There was never any question that he would oppose Roslyn's order. Just like he opposed conveniently disposing of Zarek way back in Season 1. And just like he opposed letting Baltar getting a ride on a rail out the nearest airlock for his trial, last season.

Everybody around him knows how he's going to react to things. Everybody comments on exactly that, to him, all the time. He is always being played by those people relying on his predictable reactions. It is not plausible that Lee would be mystified by why he is doing something until after the fact. He's not that much of a naif.

Yeah, OK, another agree to disagree. I can't see Adama becoming Cain-like. She shot an officer on the bridge because he had a principled disagreement with her orders, didn't she? And authorized the rape-torture of Six. Way over the top, not things I see Adama doing under any circumstances.
You recall that the person who suggested that, in the absence of Roslyn and the civilian fleet, Adama might have become just like Caine was... Adama himself, yes? I'd think that of all the characters, I'd trust him to understand what he is capable of.

[levdrakon]

Obviously Laura did not know that Zarek had leaked that particular file to Lee, and so did not know that he would be bringing that up, specifically. But. She set the tone of their subsequent interaction by her pissy dismissal of his proffered olive branch.The way I saw it is she may not have known Zarek had slipped him the file, but she seemed prepared if he had. Apollo thought he had a "gotcha!" and it fell flat. That pissed him off so he went Captain Truth & Justice on her ass. That seems to be Lee's style. His style didn't stop him from shooting Black Market Leader in cold blood.

[Rubystreak]

Everybody around him knows how he's going to react to things. Everybody comments on exactly that, to him, all the time. He is always being played by those people relying on his predictable reactions. It is not plausible that Lee would be mystified by why he is doing something until after the fact. He's not that much of a naif.

I think other people have a better idea of how he's going to react and what he's going to do than he does. You can point him and he shoots, and in fact, that's happened, hasn't it? He comes off as a naif in Black Market, that's for sure.

You recall that the person who suggested that, in the absence of Roslyn and the civilian fleet, Adama might have become just like Caine was... Adama himself, yes? I'd think that of all the characters, I'd trust him to understand what he is capable of.

Yet it's Roslin who comes off as much more dictatorial and heavy handed than Adama. It's usually he who is blocking her shady maneuvers. I think Adama is very willing to give Roslin credit for moderating him, but he does a lot to moderate her. It's a good balance. However, that said, even without the checks and balances, I still can't imagine Adama pulling a sidearm and capping someone for disagreeing with him, can you? Cain is portrayed as a caricature of the generalissimo. There is always a risk when there is absolute power. Perhaps Adama would have become what Cain was. Probably not.

[Cervaise]

I still can't imagine Adama pulling a sidearm and capping someone for disagreeing with him, can you?Not saying you're right or wrong, but Adama did threaten to have Cally executed as a traitor if Tyrol didn't provide information about who was responsible for the work stoppage in the fuel refinery. Went so far as to call somebody and give the commands; Tyrol knuckled and Adama withdrew the order. Tyrol reminded Adama of this during the meltdown scene in the current episode, and Adama didn't argue the point.

[Rubystreak]

Not saying you're right or wrong, but Adama did threaten to have Cally executed as a traitor if Tyrol didn't provide information about who was responsible for the work stoppage in the fuel refinery. Went so far as to call somebody and give the commands; Tyrol knuckled and Adama withdrew the order. Tyrol reminded Adama of this during the meltdown scene in the current episode, and Adama didn't argue the point.

If he were Helena Cain, he would have just capped Cally and said to Chief, "You're next." Then off to authorize the rape squads.

Yeah, I guess they've all got a little touch of the tyrannical monster. Who would bear up better under the circumstances? I think it's impossible to be perfectly just and merciful while also being responsible for decisions that could determine the fate of the human race. Adama doesn't do so bad. Neither does Roslin, IMO. We do love their flaws, after all. They both look fantastic next to Baltar.

[Cervaise]

If he were Helena Cain, he would have just capped Cally and said to Chief, "You're next."Actually, she would have executed Cally, turned to Tyrol, and said, "Your son is next unless you talk."

I guess I'm sort of splitting the difference here, in terms of the question of whether Adama would have stayed Adama or if he'd have drifted Cainward without any external influence. The bottom line is, just because the Admiral is the closest thing we have to a hero on the show doesn't make him, y'know, an actual hero. None of the characters is particularly admirable -- though, Gods love 'em, they're all understandable and to some degree relatable, yes, even Baltar. And because of the variance in viewer perspective, different people will feel differently about one character versus another. A good friend of mine, for example, wants Laura Roslin to be her mentor. Totally looks up to her. Thinks she can do no wrong. Blind to her faults. The whole works. And, hey, that's fine for her. Another friend has nothing but love for Starbuck, self-destructive streak and all.

Me, I'm soft on Lee, because I have more than a bit of the annoyingly stubborn idealist in me. A guarded relationship with authority, rigorously consistent attention to principle, and sticking to my moral guns lo even to the point of contrariness, are qualities that have gotten me close to fired from a couple of jobs in the past. Yes, I'll readily concede this makes me somewhat predictable, occasionally prickly, and hard to get close to. And it's been a limitation in my career, because I'm a crappy politician and a crappier liar. But it's who I am, for better and for worse, and not only can I identify with Lee's struggles to stay true to his principles, I really identify when he winds himself so tight he snaps and gives in to spite or petulance. It may not be pretty, but damn if it isn't true.

Of course, just for the record, this close identification doesn't mean I always enjoy watching the character. Sometimes it's actually uncomfortable. In general, the character I most enjoy watching and thinking about is Tigh, partly because the character is a hundred and eighty degrees away from me, and partly because the actor's performance is so frakking spectacular. Either way, I have some distance, and I can just appreciate what's happening without being hooked into it. The character I personally ache for, though, is Lee.

And not to flog a dead daggit but that's why the show's so great. I mean, this is, what, the third thread in a row where the debate about the show's storyline has taken a back seat to a debate about the characters. The first episode, we're all getting re-engaged with the plot; there's tons of narrative to establish and lots of storylines to set up, so that's what we talked about. Now, though, we're getting into the meat of the season, and it's the conflicts between the characters that's the driving engine of the show. (As opposed to typical TV SF, where external conflicts like exploding stars and meteor diseases provide the conflict.) Naturally, we feel varying degrees of loyalty to different characters, so we find ourselves arguing about motivation, backstory, emotion, justification of choices... subjects where nobody is ever really right except for and within themselves. I expect to catch a little heat for my loyalty to Lee, because, yeah, he's a bit of a prig, and he drives a lot of people crazy. But I'm not going to apologize for it, any more than I would take the inverse position and castigate someone for finding Starbuck the most compelling character.

Everybody on the show is terribly flawed, just like every one of us is terribly flawed. The intensity of their circumstances serves to inflate those flaws and throw them into sharp relief against their positive, even heroic qualities. We see things we recognize, and we keep coming back because in the backs of our minds we wonder how we ourselves would deal with such a situation. That's what draws me, and all the friends in my viewing circle.

Some people like the pretty spaceships and asplosions, not to mention the occasionally nekkid Boomer, so the show tosses in a few of those moments as well. :) But as far as I'm concerned, that stuff is just icing.

Anyway: all of this is sort of a long-winded appeal for continued civility in the discussion. There's some heat in the debate, as people argue for or against their favored characters, and that's fine, because emotional loyalty is a powerful thing. Just keep in mind variant loyalties will be an inevitable result of the show's construction. As was discussed above, in the confrontation between Lee and Roslin, both of them are, objectively speaking, simultaneously right and wrong. How can anyone choose a side? And yet, we do, and then we seek reasons why. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that somebody who chooses a different side is somehow wrong; the show rarely gives us the luxury of clear good-and-evil boundaries. (And when it does, as in "The Woman King," it almost invariably falls on its ass, and everyone hates it.) As I pointed out in a previous thread, if this were Star Trek, nobody would be taking the Cardassians' side against the Federation; that may be fun but it's programmatic cowboys-and-indians stuff. Approaching BSG with that mindset is just asking for trouble.


Aaaaaand this turned out to be way longer than I expected it to be. Time for bed, and I'll look at this in the morning to see if my rambling makes anything like sense. :)

[Rubystreak]

Actually, she would have executed Cally, turned to Tyrol, and said, "Your son is next unless you talk."

Or there never would have been a strike because they all would have been too scared of summary execution.

The bottom line is, just because the Admiral is the closest thing we have to a hero on the show doesn't make him, y'know, an actual hero. None of the characters is particularly admirable -- though, Gods love 'em, they're all understandable and to some degree relatable, yes, even Baltar.

I would argue the opposite-- they are ALL heroic, in their way. Yes, even Baltar. Well, maybe not. ;) Despite their flaws, I find something admirable in all of the Galactica characters, even the ones I find insufferable.

[Smid]

My apologies for turning up late to this party, I only watched the episode Tuesday and scanned the replies yesterday to catch up.

I have some different points, I might be imagining things, or this might never be covered by the end of the series...

Something strange happened in the episode, which raised my eyebrows and made me consider and theories just now.

When Baltar was getting beaten up by the soldier, and couldn't stand, his ghost helped him stand up.

To me, that little moment meant they had physical form. Never hinted at before.

But that means, there might be 4 different factions in BSG

1) Humans. Not subdividing into the pro-anti government etc bunch. The good guys.

2) The seven. Want to kill humans. Or indeed the 3 or 4 currently at war with each other (It was unclear to me as to how many were killed off in the big attack in last episode). This could be the three now (with one in sleep mode).

3) The five. Which strangely the seven don't know details of. We have no real knowledge of agenda. Callie getting chucked out airlock was first sign to me that they were anti-human or evil. I was previously thinking this lot were pro human, and Starbuck was one of them, guiding the humans to earth.

4) The ghosts. As seen by Baltar, Tigh and Blondie... Since humans and cylons have seen them (unless Baltar is a cylon, then only cylons see them... Or am I wrong). Yet blondie has seen hers (as a Baltar), so they aren't part of group 1) or 2). So probably part of group 3. They seem to have some form.

[carnivorousplant]

When Baltar was getting beaten up by the soldier, and couldn't stand, his ghost helped him stand up.


She jerked him around by his tie, as I recall. :)

[Smid]

She jerked him around by his tie, as I recall. :)

Ok fair enough, the point being she had physical impact on reality, which as far as I know, hasn't happened before right?

[carnivorousplant]

Ok fair enough, the point being she had physical impact on reality, which as far as I know, hasn't happened before right?
It looked like she lifted him up, and it looked like she dragged him around by his tie, but nobody who saw it freaked out. I say since it's a story it could go either way. I hope we find out.

[Acsenray]

Ok fair enough, the point being she had physical impact on reality, which as far as I know, hasn't happened before right?

It has happened before, I think. Early on, his mental Six was pushing him around the corridors. This is the first time that it has happened so blatantly in front of everyone though.

[Frazzled]

The idea that the mental 6 could also be physical would explain how easily the Shelly Godfrey persona was able to appear and disappear in season 1. Was she really Mental 6 all along?

[Geobabe]

It has happened before, I think. Early on, his mental Six was pushing him around the corridors. This is the first time that it has happened so blatantly in front of everyone though.It's happened a few times; I remember the corridor, and another time in the bathroom on Colonial One, she slammed his face into the mirror, and I think a couple other times. I recall at least once there being a witness, but they just kind of looked at him like, uh, that guy is acting a little weird, and walked away. This is definitely the first time it's been in front of many people.

[Alessan]

Didn't Mental 6 once call herself "an Angel of God"?

[mazinger_z]

I don't think the search function is working, so apologies if this has been asked and answered, but why can't Hera's blood cure Rosalin's cancer? Is it b/c she's not a baby anymore? I seem to recall something about fetal cells.

[Hellestal]

I don't think the search function is working, so apologies if this has been asked and answered, but why can't Hera's blood cure Rosalin's cancer? Is it b/c she's not a baby anymore? I seem to recall something about fetal cells.I've been keeping a close eye on this one, because I had a theory (an unlikely theory) that maybe Tyrol would offer his son's blood if he knew that Hera was too old. That is, it would be his own benevolence that outed him as a Cylon; lot of dramatic potential if the Doc tried the treatment again but Chief Jr.'s blood had adverse effects, which would squander whatever goodwill Tyrol had built up by offering a potential cure.

But they haven't spent even a moment discussing Hera's blood and whether she no longer has Cylo-stem cells or what. Not a word about it.

[alphaboi867]

...4) The ghosts. As seen by Baltar, Tigh and Blondie... Since humans and cylons have seen them (unless Baltar is a cylon, then only cylons see them... Or am I wrong). Yet blondie has seen hers (as a Baltar), so they aren't part of group 1) or 2). So probably part of group 3. They seem to have some form.

I think Tigh's visions of Ellen are just a product of his own mind (like Adama's visions of his wife were). It's really interesting that Baltar's seen a Virtual Baltar. Is Baltar's Virtual Baltar the same Virtual Baltar as Caprica-Six's Virtual Baltar? Is Six going to see a Virtual Six? If the Cylons can share memories do the other Cylons know about Caprica's Virtual Baltar? Even if they don't normally wouldn't it be prudent to review them now that she's gone over to the other side?

[carnivorousplant]

It's really interesting that Baltar's seen a Virtual Baltar.
Just someone else he wants to sleep with.

[Merijeek]

Laura had no intent to bring her kangaroo court into the open. Lee forced her hand with his actions and she was pissed, hence the reason she was complaining about it to the senior Adama.

That's how I saw it, FWIW.

-Joe

[Merijeek]

Just someone else he wants to sleep with.

"Oh me! Oh me! Ooooh meeeeeeeeee!"

-Joe

[HelloKitty]

I think Tigh's visions of Ellen are just a product of his own mind (like Adama's visions of his wife were). It's really interesting that Baltar's seen a Virtual Baltar. Is Baltar's Virtual Baltar the same Virtual Baltar as Caprica-Six's Virtual Baltar? Is Six going to see a Virtual Six? If the Cylons can share memories do the other Cylons know about Caprica's Virtual Baltar? Even if they don't normally wouldn't it be prudent to review them now that she's gone over to the other side?I've always thought of these visions as a visualization of a character's thoughts...almost like a "cartoon balloon" if you will. Baltar's Virtual Baltar to me, is his subconcious (just like Tigh seeing Ellen), or a mechanism of coping with the stress of the situation the character is in at the time. I've pretty much thought the same thing about Baltar's Virtual Six (BVS) the whole series.

It is for this reason that my eyes nearly popped out of my head when BVS invisibly picked him up and forced him to take another body shot from the marine's rifle!! That was a shocker indeed.

That's why this show is so great...it's always making you go back and think about what you thought you already knew or believed.

[Mr. Excellent]

Or there never would have been a strike because they all would have been too scared of summary execution.



I would argue the opposite-- they are ALL heroic, in their way. Yes, even Baltar. Well, maybe not. ;) Despite their flaws, I find something admirable in all of the Galactica characters, even the ones I find insufferable.

Absolutely, Baltar has his heroic moments. He saved Cally's life, remember. And when he was tasked with getting information from Gina (the Six who'd been raped and tortured by the Pegasus crew), he was genuinely, truly appalled by what had been done to her. In the episode before last, he was willing to die to save a little boy's life.

And, above all else - back on New Caprica, he was *this close* to taking a bullet instead of signing the death orders. He didn't want to sign them. He knew it was wrong, and on a certain level he was willing to die rather than do it - but he broke. Who wouldn't, with a gun to his head? I still think that every second he held out in that scene, and said "No", was a second of heroism to match anything else we've seen on this show.

[carnivorousplant]

he was *this close* to taking a bullet instead of signing the death orders.

"Close" is only of significance when referring to horse shoes or thermonuclear weapons.

[Rubystreak]

And, above all else - back on New Caprica, he was *this close* to taking a bullet instead of signing the death orders. He didn't want to sign them. He knew it was wrong, and on a certain level he was willing to die rather than do it - but he broke. Who wouldn't, with a gun to his head? I still think that every second he held out in that scene, and said "No", was a second of heroism to match anything else we've seen on this show.

Do you think Bill Adama would have signed those orders? Or Laura Roslin? Or Lee, or Starbuck? I can see all of them taking that bullet, though obviously it's an unanswerable question, but I think Baltar has been depicted until recently (arguably) as totally, pathologically self-interested. He has regularly committed acts that have contributed to humanity being down to 30,000 members: Caprica, Cloud 9, New Caprica, withholding the Cylon detector test...

That doesn't mean that he isn't capable of moral judgment nor that he didn't have serious qualms about signing that order. But I don't agree that his hesitation before signing was heroic. It just makes him human. Those were people he knew. If it were easy, he'd be a monster. As it is, again, he's very human.

He may have, like his Six, learned from his horrendous acts of destruction towards humanity. I'd like to think he could be redeemed by the end of the series. But as of now, he's a war criminal with a lot of blood on his hands.

[carnivorousplant]

I'd like to think he could be redeemed by the end of the series.
Do you mean everyone decides hes an ok guy after all, or he injects himself with the Cylon virus I harp about and blows his brains out on a basestar?

[Merijeek]

Regarding Baltar, I'm pretty sure they basically told him that he could either sign it, or they could blow his brains out and do it anyways.

Logically, him signing the Death Order actually had a net saving of one life versus the other option. The fact that it was his own life was just a bonus!

-Joe

[Rubystreak]

Regarding Baltar, I'm pretty sure they basically told him that he could either sign it, or they could blow his brains out and do it anyways.

Logically, him signing the Death Order actually had a net saving of one life versus the other option. The fact that it was his own life was just a bonus!

-Joe

People have died on general principle rather than sign an order like that. Signing it may be pragmatic, but heroic it ain't.

Will redemption = everyone eventually thinks Baltar is an OK guy? Truly, I don't know what would constitute redemption for Baltar, but maybe engineering some sort of lasting reconciliation between Cylons and humans would do it? I doubt Roslin would think he was an OK guy, but she might not want to murder him anymore. He is certainly moving away from his adject solipsism of earlier seasons, but I have no idea where they're going with it.

[levdrakon]

Regarding Baltar, I'm pretty sure they basically told him that he could either sign it, or they could blow his brains out and do it anyways.

Logically, him signing the Death Order actually had a net saving of one life versus the other option. The fact that it was his own life was just a bonus!

-JoeI suppose another way of looking at it is Baltar *did* take the bullet, metaphorically. Someone had to sign that order and earn everyone's hate. As you say, it's not like he did it willingly. That document was going to get signed and if not by him, then by the next in line, or the next in line, or the next in line of succession. The Cylons could have spent all day electing, then shooting new presidents until someone finally signed the execution order.

[Mr. Excellent]

Do you think Bill Adama would have signed those orders? Or Laura Roslin? Or Lee, or Starbuck? I can see all of them taking that bullet, though obviously it's an unanswerable question, but I think Baltar has been depicted until recently (arguably) as totally, pathologically self-interested. He has regularly committed acts that have contributed to humanity being down to 30,000 members: Caprica, Cloud 9, New Caprica, withholding the Cylon detector test...



No, I think Bill Adama would have taken the bullet. Same with Roslin, Lee, Starbuck, and Tigh. But these are incredibly strong people, who can push themselves damn far, who could probably make themselves say "no, I won't" long enough that they'd be shot before they broke. Baltar's breaking point came before he got shot - but he *did* break. Re-watch the scene where he signs the order - he's terrified out of his mind, beyond rational thought. I don't think you can hold what a fellow does against him, when he's been pushed that far. The important thing about Baltar is that he *did* have to get pushed that far, he *did* have to be genuinely broken - for as long as he was able to keep his reason, even with a gun pressed to his head, Baltar said "no". He didn't just capitulate out of self-interest.

As for Bill Adama taking the bullet - he'd take the bullet because he's probably had training to resist interrogation, and he's an incredibly tough guy, and he'd be able to keep saying "no" until the Cylons said "frak it" and shot him. But eventually, they could break him, too - and once they broke him, he'd sign.

I'm rambling on at some length here, so let me just leave it at this: Bravery, and heroism, aren't about not being afraid. They're about *being* afraid, and making the right choice anyway, for so long as you have the faculties to make it. For as long as he could think straight, Baltar was willing to die to keep that order from being signed - that makes him a hero, for at least that day.

[running piglet cheese]

Has anyone ever addressed the question of how Baltar survived the nuclear blast on Caprica? We've been shown that scene several times of him being in the room with 6 when the blast occurred. She could get recycled, but what about him?

Regarding signing the death order, I still remember Gaeta swearing in Baltar's trial that he was there when Baltar signed it and he did so willingly with no argument. This of course was totally false and Gaeta wasn't even there when it happened.

[Rilchiam]

I thought Baltar signed because Six told him he could still countermand it. Not so?

[Cervaise]

I think Tigh's visions of Ellen are just a product of his own mindDon't forget, we've been told a few times of the Cylon ability to "project" into their environment. In a scene on a basestar, there was the bit where a Doral and a Six passed each other in a corridor, and we briefly saw it happening in a forest, which is where one of them preferred to visualize him- or herself. Also (and this might be in a deleted scene; don't remember) Athena explained the same ability to Roslin after their shared dream in the opera house. Tigh may very well be discovering the same facility in himself, without realizing what it is.

I thought Baltar signed because Six told him he could still countermand it. Not so?I just looked at the scene again. (The benefits of a work-from home gig. :))

The Doral has the gun to Baltar's temple and is shouting, "Sign it, sign your name, sign it." This is after the Six in the room has objected, saying "just because you want to do this doesn't mean you can also drag him into sin with you," and Doral shot her in the forehead.

While Doral is yelling, Baltar looks up as the Head Six appears. In his mind, they are alone in the room.

Head Six: "There's nothing you can do, Gaius. It'll be okay."

Baltar: "It's you. ... Help me."

Head Six: "You have to sign it. They'll kill you if you don't."

There's a cutaway to Doral barking "sign it, sign your name," holding a fistful of Baltar's hair. Baltar is paralyzed with terror. Then back to the Six fantasy.

Baltar: "I can't. I won't. You can't force m--"

Head Six takes his face in her hands and turns him to look at her.

Head Six: "Sometimes you have to do things you hate so you can survive to fight another day."

Baltar slowly looks away from her, back down to the document. And sees that his signature is now on the paper.

So, no, not a delaying tactic. A simple action.