Wayward teen vs. military enlistment

[Brown Eyed Girl]

For a teenager, a month away from turning 18, who has all but dropped out of school, has no desire or intention of finishing, would rather go for his GED, having trouble landing a job, and is not wanting to live with parents under their house rules, is military enlistment a good option?

And how would you try to convince your son that his options are so few and his immediate outlook is looking pretty dire that he should consider the military as an alternative to a minimum wage existence? Also, why would a teenager think the Air Force is the only branch of military worth considering? I don't think he believes he's would get to fly, but he seems to think the USAF is the "best" of the branches. Personally, I think he should seriously consider the Navy since he's interested in marine biology and loves the ocean. It just seems like it fits him better. I just don't believe he's going to do all that well on his own.

I really don't know what more I can do to help him when he won't help himself, but I'd rather see him in the military trying to overcome his issues with authority and building some kind of foundation in his life that offers him a chance at a better future.

[The Great Sun Jester]

If he can't live under the house rules, he won't have to worry about living under Unca Sam's rules for long either.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Well, I was kinda hoping that Uncle Sam (or at least his fellow recruits) might persuade him that rules are inevitable and best followed for a much easier existence.

[threemae]

Also, why would a teenager think the Air Force is the only branch of military worth considering? I don't think he believes he's would get to fly, but he seems to think the USAF is the "best" of the branches. Personally, I think he should seriously consider the Navy since he's interested in marine biology and loves the ocean. It just seems like it fits him better.

Others with much more direct experience will mirror this, but from a purely "selfish" point of view, Air Force is the way to go. By a long shot.

And the Navy doesn't exactly have an enlistment->marine biology Ph.D. program bridge if you know what I mean. I don't think that a keen interest in marine biology is a substantial advantage for choosing a Navy enlistment.

Best of luck.

[Gary T]

I don't know if things have changed recently what with an apparent shortage of combat personnel, but not long ago the military was being rather picky about who they'd take. Scrapes with the law, and I'm guessing failure to graduate high school, could result in being rejected.

That said, over the years I've heard of a number of young men for whom military service was beneficial for a number of reasons. It may well be a good thing for him if he qualifies. I too have heard that the Air Force can be a sweet deal compared to other services. I would also suggest investigating the Coast Guard.

[Ghanima]

How to convince him? Just get him in to talk to a recruiter who's worth his salt. Don't stick around for the hard sell - he'll feel better about the decision if he feels he made it himself. The recruiter gets paid to convince your son that the military is a good choice. Many are very good at their job.

[Lemur866]

If he doesn't even have a GED yet, I don't think he'll be able to enlist. I suppose if you sicced a recruiter on him, you could make it the recruiter's job to hound him into getting getting the GED. Remember, recruiters are doing a good job if they get 2 or 3 recruits a month, so they'll bust their ass if there's any chance he can make it.

[The Great Sun Jester]

The recruiter gets paid to convince your son that the military is a good choice.And to be fair, it really can be the best choice for someone who isn't quite sure where they fit. For some folks anyway, simply belonging to a structure and understanding where they fit in that structure can allow them to blossom. Any branch can give him that. If it works, great. If not, he'll almost certainly not be any worse off than right now.

[JustAnotherGeek]

If he can get a slot in the Air Force, it probably is the best way to go. OTOH, the Air Force has been heavily reduced in size - I've heard that it is smaller today than when it was the Air Corps and only a branch of the Army.

As far as it "Setting him straight" there may be hope. My older brother was, to be quite honest, a fuck-up in HS and college. He basically drank and failed his way out of college. He decided that the army was the way for him, enlisted, got through basic, went straight into armor school (tanks), graduated the top of his class in both basic and armor training, went on to make Staff Sargent, and received awards for being a model soldier before leaving the army and becoming a financial consultant / planner.

I'm not saying that the above is a given path, but some people need to put their decisions in the hands of other for a while.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Yeah, I don't really even know if he'd be able to get the waivers he'd need to actually be accepted. Then again, I've heard that rumors that it's much easier to get those waivers.

This boy has issues. He's got juvenile misdemeanor convictions which would be a potential disqualifier. He's got serious issues with oppositional behavior and problems with authority. My biggest concern is that he ends up making some really bad decisions and continuing behavior that lands him in jail. He doesn't have anything really to fall back on with no diploma, no skills, no stability. He's basically in survival mode, though, and has no idea how to improve his situation. Well, he knows, but he's not motivated enough to do what he needs to do, I guess.

He could probably get his diploma by the end of the summer if he'd just go to school and do some work, but he won't go. I don't know what he plans to do to get a GED, but that's what he says he wants. In the meantime, he's trying to find a job and not having much luck. He lost his first job a few months ago because he missed a couple of shifts.

I'm pretty much at my wits end because I don't know how to help him. I've tried, so many people have tried to convince him, but he just doesn't care it seems. He needs some direction, something to motivate him.

I was thinking of seeing if I could just get him into the office to listen to what the recruiters have to say. I want him to make the choice, but of course, I'm just grasping at straws here looking for something that might look better to him than the struggling he's doing now.

[dangermom]

My black sheep BIL joined the Air Force and he loved it, though he had all those problems you list. The only problem was he thought he was smarter than the guys in charge--he wouldn't give up his pot habit (he is, in fact, addicted to it) and got kicked out before a year was up, when he was found out. It was still good for him, though.

However, your son may well be more intelligent than my BIL, and it's certainly worth a shot. I think a lot of guys like the challenge and need the structure.

[AuntiePam]

It's good that he's interested in something. If the military won't take him, maybe he could talk to a counselor at the local community college. They probably won't have a marine biology program, but he'd be able to get two years of requirements toward a four-year degree.

My youngest was unsettled about his future too, at the same age as your son. He tried a few things and then joined the National Guard. He got his GED as part of his basic training.

He decided the military wasn't for him (he didn't get into the program he wanted) so he got out after fulfilling his obligation. He's a machinist now and is doing fine.

[Shagnasty]

The Air Force is the best if you want a fairly cushy job that mimics jobs on the outside world the most and has a fairly low chance of harm or death. I was in Air Force ROTC for a while in college and enjoyed it but dropped out to pursue other things. Other branches of the service could land you anywhere from an aircraft carrier or a nuclear sub that hides under arctic pack ice for months at a time to active combat. They say that enlisted Air Force people are the smartest of all because they send the officers out to do the actual combat.

I have known two people in similar situations. The most recent was my wife's nephew who was in very similar circumstances. I took the liberty to beg my BIL to make him to go into any branch of the service because things were starting to turn bad quickly. My BIL freaked about his chance of injury or death in the Middle East. That was about the worst decision he has ever made. My wife's nephew is now a raging heroin addict and both his mother and father try to keep him in jail as much as possible to keep him alive. He is doing 6 months now for stealing from his parents to fund his addiction. No one has any doubt he will die from it in the next few years. He is only 21 and the only hope to keep him alive is for him to commit as serious felony and get sent to prison for a long time.

The other person is my little brother. He signed up for the Marine Corps when there wasn't any war going on. My mother pressured him in a big way because his hopes were falling apart quickly. After he signed the papers, he decided he didn't want to enlist after all. Bad move. He failed to show up for all kinds of things and the Marine Military Police actually showed up at our house one day based one my mother's arrangements. Rifles in hand, they woke him up from a dead sleep early one morning, gave him 5 minutes to grab essentials and he was on a plane to San Diego by mid day. He got stationed in Japan and it was the best thing that ever happened to him. Today, he is solidly middle class and an awesome father and husband. Sometimes it takes shock treatment to correct destructive behavior of any sort and the military is a good way to do that.

[gravitycrash]

I seriously doubt the Air Force would consider him unless he scored extremely high on the ASVAB test.
The other services may have loosened qualifications since I was in 83-87 but I doubt it. I had to go infantry because of previous pot busts, to my recruiters credit, he didn't lie about that.

I was a fuckup and wasting my parents money in college. The best thing I ever did was join the Marine Corps.

I wish you luck Brown Eyed Girl Have him at least seriously consider the option of the military, unless he wants to flip burgers or busts his ass in a hard labor low paying job.

[Chessic Sense]

One mistake civilians make when picking a branch is looking at the things that people "like", like marine biology in this instance. I understand it though, it's an attempt to make a decision based on little information. If you don't know the differences in the branches, it's sort of all you have to go on.

It's also a big mistake. If he wants to pick a branch, he should consider how "tough" he wants to be, if he wants a big organization, and what kind of job he wants. The Navy, to my understanding, does not have a Marine Biologist job. Look for (or think of) a job, THEN pick the branch.

Also, let's be fair to the kid. Maybe he doesn't have a problem with authority, so much as he has a problem with his parent's authority. He might just resent the people themselves.

[SSG Schwartz]

US Army recruiter chiming in. Misdemeanor charges and no HS diploma means he will be disqualified from the Air Force. Hell, no diploma means he can't join any branch other than the Army, and we have come close to enlisting all the GED applicants that we are authorized for the year. He will have to get his GED before he can go to Basic Training for the Army, but we will pay for the test.

If he can, his best course of action is to finish high school. Then he has a shot at any of the branches of Service. I cannot agree that the Air Force is the right choice for all. (Granted, I am kind of biased) An interest in Marine biology does not always translate into a good match for the Navy. Hell, I have known several Marines, and biology cannot explain them :smack: .

I think that Military Service may be able to help him, but I would have to have some more information that I would not expect you to post on a public forum. PM me and I will be able to ask you some questions that will help me determine what branches will accept him and what his options are.

I know a lot of people think that the Air Force is the easiest branch of Service and that the quality of enlistees is higher, but I can speak from fact when I tell you that the Air Force has fewer slots to fill than any other branch. Fewer slots means fewer jobs. So the bar can be raised higher for enlistment purposes, but when training is complete, the actual job may be identical to an Army job. My job is the exact same as an Air Force job. I know this because I worked with Airmen in the field of Mental Health. Same jobs, same responsibilities, faster promotions in the Army. For that matter, some Navy Seamen attended Army training with me in my field.

Again, I encourage you to PM me and let me know where you are located and what his current situation is. I don't sell the Army, I match people to what will be best for them.

SSG Schwartz

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Thanks for the replies and SSG Schwartz, check your PM.

WRT the marine biology interest, I mentioned it not because I thought the Navy had a program, but because I'm trying to connect interests to general environment. If someone loves the ocean, they might prefer (or even be happier) to be on (or under) the sea as opposed to in a jungle or desert, right? Even if they aren't exactly doing fun stuff in the ocean, it's the idealized vision of working and living in that environment as opposed to a place you can't imagine yourself being. Know what I mean?

There are very few things my son really cares about and I'm trying to encourage him to not let go of those things. He loves sports and the ocean. He may have dreams that seem quite unattainable at the moment, but he's really not even aware of all the things he might find that interest him. He is a smart kid, though. Maybe intelligent, but not as emotionally intelligent as he could be. He also has principles, but can't figure out how to live the daily grind with those principles.

he mentioned to me when I broached the topic, that he doesn't agree with the ways the government has utilized the military. (Read: he doesn't support our current Iraq policy.) And he says he's worried about how this is all going to play out. He mentioned N. Korea and posed some what-if scenarios. I can understand he'd be concerned about seeing combat. Who wouldn't. I really hope he doesn't, of course. But then, I don't believe that enlisting guarantees seeing combat. My husband was enlisted during the Gulf War and never saw combat as a submariner. (Hence, my tendency to favor Navy.)

But the real issue for me is I think an armed forces enlistment could straighten him out as some of you have mentioned. No guarantee, but there's a chance. I hate to admit that I don't see a lot of good things in his future as a civilian. He'd have to learn some discipline somewhere and it's not easy making that extreme change in attitude on your own. He could use a catalyst. He could really benefit from some structure that I obviously couldn't provide.

I may not have been the best of a mother to him, but I still care very much about his well-being and future.

Thanks again to everyone for your input.

[gravitycrash]

I'm sure you are a confused parent. Just try your best. Been there, Actually still going through it.
All you can do is let it play out. At least, in my case.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

The kindness I have been a recipient of on the Dope just about makes me cry. It's good to know I'm not alone and have people to share my struggles with even if only anonymously. It's harder to do it face-to-face because it feels so embarrassing and sometimes it makes people squirm. I guess that's why I tend to be so private.

But how can I really express my thanks to have this outlet with people like you guys?

*hugs for everyone* :)

[missred]

Another alternative might be Job Corps.

I have a nephew who needed guidance at that age. He went the Job Corps route and found a trade that he enjoys. His pay has been considerably better than mine (and me having two years of college) and he has had good benefits through his trade union.

Good luck!

[StGermain]

He doesn't want to live by your rules? That's fine - he can move out. At his age maybe some real-world experience will help him chose his path. when he realizes that he has to show up at work to earn the paycheck that ensures that he has a place to sleep and food to eat, he'll grow up. (This is supposing he doesn't have drug issues - that's a different story) He'll learn that laziness isn't a career path.

StG

[Brown Eyed Girl]

He has no serious drug issues, to my knowledge. I'm sure there's some recreational pot smoking, but I don't see him under the influence. He doesn't have appear to have the inclination towards drug abuse as he has mentioned he doesn't really like the way the side effects make him feel, by and large. He doesn't have any dependents...yet. It's just him and his future. At this point, I'd like to think he isn't a lost cause.

The thing I fear most is that right now he's not on drugs, but if he finds himself desperate enough and among other desperate people is that going to lead to more self-destructive behavior that he hasn't yet gotten caught up in: drug dealing and abuse, theft, welfare babies, et cetera.

On the other hand, it could be the wake-up call that really motivates him start listening to the advice for getting himself on a better track. Everyone has been telling him, the HS diploma is the top priority that looks to be the main door opener. The GED is a pale alternative, better than nothing, but why settle for less when you are close and perfectly capable of getting the diploma? Why!? Because he doesn't want to do the things that he doesn't like doing. So, he's setting himself up for a lifetime of that just to eke out a subsistence. Mind-boggling.

Thank you, missred, for the Job Corps recommendation. I hadn't heard of that and found their website. We have a JC facility in town and I'm going to look into that and see if he's open to it. I'm only here for another month, and after that he's really on his own. He won't have any family to keep on him, feed him when he's hungry, find services for him and encourage him to find his way. That may be the worst thing or best thing for him. I know some of us need to hit the bottom to find the motivation to turn things around, but that destroys some people. I don't want him to be destroyed or even worse off. I still think that he has a lot to offer the world. He's like a geode, not much to be impressed by on the outside, but on the inside he has value and potential. He has a strong, inquisitive mind and does care about people, despite his lack of personal ambition. I might be biased, but so many people have seen the same in him that I believe it. Maybe, he doesn't.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

He doesn't want to live by your rules? That's fine - he can move out. At his age maybe some real-world experience will help him chose his path. when he realizes that he has to show up at work to earn the paycheck that ensures that he has a place to sleep and food to eat, he'll grow up.
That's the rub. I think you're right, but then again I have tremendous guilt about this. I feel obligated and responsible to provide the roof over his head and basic necessities because he's still just 17. But, I have a younger child also to be concerned about and his presence in our home is disruptive for everyone, including her. She's old enough to worry about him and be angry at me for not making him stay here, but too young to understand that he can't be here.

My rules are simple and straightforward. Go to school and DO the work, don't just be a warm body. Be respectful towards other people and our environment meaning don't spew obscenities at us when we tell you that you can't do/have something, don't break stuff and stomp around disturbing the neighbor below us. Pick up after yourself and take out the trash at the very least. Show some initiative to learning to be a self-supporting individual, that's all we're trying to prep you for. Chores, even the most basic, are not a punishment, but a responsibility. I don't want to be his maid and warden, I'm just trying to be a mother.

Enforcing these simple rules have only resulted in so much turmoil and strife, we have ceased to be effective as parents. You can't help someone who doesn't want your help. I tried to teach him that responsibility is inevitable and leads to the rewards he wants. There's no free ride in the "real world." I am starting to feel like an enabler despite the fact that I'm not trying to be. Making him take responsibility for his destructive behavior has only resulted in certain doors closing for him, and of course, he blames me (not that I accept that). There doesn't seem to be any carrot we dangle for him or consequence that is too dire.

He certainly needs more therapy, but relative poverty and our peculiar circumstances make it much more difficult to get. And therapy only helps if he's open to tackling his problems and changing his behavior. We haven't cracked that nut, yet. He was in therapy last year and quit because he didn't see it helping and felt it was a waste of his time. Actually, it was, for me, for the therapist and for a kid who thought it was stupid. If I'd had the money, I would have sent him to one of those behavior modification camps or military school, but that wasn't an option. Grasping at straws has been a constant theme. Here I am, still searching for the answers.

[billyb0b]

Air Force recruiter chiming in now. I empathize with the OP, I deal with young people in that exact situation every day. The standards for the Air Force are higher, but waivers are common. If you want to see if he is qualified for the Air Force, PM me and I'll ask a few questions (probably the same ones SSgt Schwartz asked) and give you a correct assesment of his qualifications. I DO think the Air Force is the best branch (I am biased :) )and it is a life changer. The Air Force is typically less physically demanding, but togher mentally. No disrespect to any other branch, but our lifestyle is more conducive to school and family than others. Many young people get the impression that it is easier because of this. If he really wants to be an Airman and doesn't get his diploma, he will have to score a 65 on the ASVAB if he has a GED. Contrary to popular belief, he can join the AF with a GED. Best of luck to you and the young man.

[romansperson]

The Navy, to my understanding, does not have a Marine Biologist job. Look for (or think of) a job, THEN pick the branch.

They do have an Oceanography Office (http://www.oceanographer.navy.mil/career_oportunities.htm) and enlisted positions within that would be Aerographer's Mates (AE). So he might be interested in that - and if he is, perhaps he'd be more willing to do the work it takes to get there.

[Really Not All That Bright]

he mentioned to me when I broached the topic, that he doesn't agree with the ways the government has utilized the military. (Read: he doesn't support our current Iraq policy.) And he says he's worried about how this is all going to play out. He mentioned N. Korea and posed some what-if scenarios. I can understand he'd be concerned about seeing combat. Who wouldn't. I really hope he doesn't, of course. But then, I don't believe that enlisting guarantees seeing combat. My husband was enlisted during the Gulf War and never saw combat as a submariner. (Hence, my tendency to favor Navy.)
The fact that he has an opinion on the war makes him sound a lot less like a lost cause than I thought after reading the OP. If he has an opinion, then he actually cares, which is important.

I can't help with the employment issue but if I might suggest you might convince him to volunteer for a campaign. It'll look great on a resume and at least get him out of the house and being productive.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

The fact that he has an opinion on the war makes him sound a lot less like a lost cause than I thought after reading the OP. If he has an opinion, then he actually cares, which is important.
Oh, he's very introspective and philosophical at times. I have been very proud listening to his thought processes and moral discussions. Several teachers have commented that when they managed to get him to write about something he's interested in, they were impressed as well. There's no doubt that he's a bright and compassionate person.

When he was about eleven or twelve, he mentioned out of the blue that he objected to capital punishment and then participated in a discussion about the death penalty in which he spelled out his moral objections. He included arguments about the impact on society related to the DP being ineffective as a deterrent. He'd really thought it out and understood the implications of incarceration, punishment and rehabilitation. We were floored. He was very serious and eloquent in presenting his ideas. I don't think I'd ever discussed it with him before, so I'm not sure if he'd gotten those ideas from me. Nonetheless, I was very proud of him.

I can't help with the employment issue but if I might suggest you might convince him to volunteer for a campaign. It'll look great on a resume and at least get him out of the house and being productive.
We tried that before. He did a little volunteering for a guy running for local council. He didn't choose the candidate, though and wasn't really interested in that guy's politics; he'd arranged the job through the school's community service program. I don't think he put a lot of effort into it, nor found it interesting, and ended up completing his CS requirement elsewhere. He'd probably have been more interested in something a bit more grassroots, if you know what I mean. But that was then, he's pretty self-centered right now.

[Jodi]

The other person is my little brother. He signed up for the Marine Corps when there wasn't any war going on. My mother pressured him in a big way because his hopes were falling apart quickly. After he signed the papers, he decided he didn't want to enlist after all. Bad move. He failed to show up for all kinds of things and the Marine Military Police actually showed up at our house one day based one my mother's arrangements. Rifles in hand, they woke him up from a dead sleep early one morning, gave him 5 minutes to grab essentials and he was on a plane to San Diego by mid day.

When I worked at a local hotel some years ago, one of our maids was a new enlistee in the Army who was leaving the hotel for basic training. She didn't show up for transportand MPs came to the hotel looking for her. I was surprised, though I don't know why I should have been. She was even more surprised when they found her. She was very nice but not very smart; I guess she thought that you could quit the military the same way you could quit your job as a hotel maid: By just not showing up.

Anyway, good luck with your son, BEG

[Brown Eyed Girl]

DUPE post. Please delete.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

They do have an Oceanography Office (http://www.oceanographer.navy.mil/career_oportunities.htm) and enlisted positions within that would be Aerographer's Mates (AE). So he might be interested in that - and if he is, perhaps he'd be more willing to do the work it takes to get there.
See, that sounds good to me. Kinda, sorta wish I was 17 and able to pursue something like that.

The Navy also has diver positions for enlisted. I imagine that diving would be something my son would enjoy, if even to retrieve ordnance or scrape the hull of a ship.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Gah! I just got off the phone with my son. He says he's not interested in Job Corps because he doesn't want to be in a program for 12 to 18 months to learn a job skill and get his GED. He feels his priority right now is to get a job. What kind of job, I ask? A job that will pay the bills so he can go to college. He said he's turned in about 5-10 applications, but not a single one has called him back? Why, I ask. Because I have no experience. So, why not learn a marketable skill? Because I don't have time. But you're 17!!! Now is the time to learn those skills and get your diploma while you still have so many resources available to you. It's not going to be easier when those resources dry up.

He says I keep offering him options that he's not interested in and if I really wanted to help, I would help him get a job. How am I supposed to do that? He doesn't know. That's the typical answer to everything. I don't know. How are you going to pay for the GED? I don't know. How are you going to study for it? I don't know. How are you going to land a job? I don't know. He's hoping for a miracle to drop in his lap, I guess.

I suppose I am expected to pay for his GED and study for him, ask my husband to drive him around looking for a job at his convenience, and support him while he sits around waiting for his miracle. I can't do it anymore.

God, I'm so frustrated.

[Renob]

And how would you try to convince your son that his options are so few and his immediate outlook is looking pretty dire that he should consider the military as an alternative to a minimum wage existence?
Kicking him out of the house and letting him try to find a place to live, transportation, and food for himself on a minimum wage job should do a nice job convincing him of this.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Kicking him out of the house and letting him try to find a place to live, transportation, and food for himself on a minimum wage job should do a nice job convincing him of this.
Well, we didn't technically kick him out of the house, but we agreed to let him stay with a friend. Who is now kicking him out because she can't support him and he's not making any progress to support himself.

So, now I'm faced with him coming back to my house and since he's still 17, I don't think I can legally refuse to take responsibility for him. But I can establish rules and have told him if he comes back, he'll need to go to school and if he doesn't, he'll answer to truancy charges. He's now making some phone calls to see if he can find some other place to sack out.

It would seem pointless at this point to file delinquency charges again because his hearing would probably not happen until after he turns 18. In my experience, not much really happens as a result anyway except for community service, which doesn't seem to phase him much.

This totally sucks.

[Peter Morris]

A few interesting things in what you have said. Allow me to highlight a few.



There are very few things my son really cares about and I'm trying to encourage him to not let go of those things .... . He also has principles, but can't figure out how to live the daily grind with those principles.

he mentioned to me when I broached the topic, that he doesn't agree with the ways the government has utilized the military. (Read: he doesn't support our current Iraq policy.) ...


Here's the thing. If he doesn't support the war, then it['s all kinds of bad to pressure him into the military. It would be exactly the wrong choice for him, and wrong of you to push him into it.

If he enlists, there is a fairly high chance that he may be involved in the war in some way. Is this something you really want? Do you want him to put aside his own personal beliefs, and go and fight for a cause that he thinks unjust? Do you really want your son to be the type of person who puts aside his own moral principles for pay?

You say that you are encouraging him not to let go of the things he likes. Yet you are pressing him into going against what he believes in. How do you reconcile that?


I can understand he'd be concerned about seeing combat. Who wouldn't. I really hope he doesn't, of course. But then, I don't believe that enlisting guarantees seeing combat.

Maybe not. It's quite possible that he will never see combat. Maybe he will spend his career several thousand miles from the action, pushing paper, making sure that the front line troops get supplied with bullets on a regular basis.

Even so, that will still be participation in a war that is against his own moral principles. Doing so would still mean abandoning what he believes to be right.

Is that what you want for him?


But the real issue for me is I think an armed forces enlistment could straighten him out as some of you have mentioned.

Suppose you succeed in pressing him into it? Will that really "straighten him out?" Certainly it will open up career paths for him. But will it help him as a person?

Probably he will hate the job. Perhaps he will hate himself for it. Quite likely he will resent you for pushing him into it. Maybe pushing him down this path will totally screw him up as a person.

Seriously, if he does not find the military to be an attractive career, then pushing him into it against his will is a bad idea.

[Quartz]

Would the French Foreign Legion take him? IIRC you are allowed to leave after 6 months or so if you want.

With regard to getting him a job, are you a shareholder in a local business or a business with a local office? Or you could ask him if he's applied to the local fast food places; if he complains about that, remind him that several of the McDonalds board started by flipping burgers.

[StGermain]

Why does he think it's your responsibility to get him a job? It's not your responsibility to get him a job, plan his future, or wipe his butt. In a few months he'll be 18 and you'll be gone. He'd better man up. You can't live his life for him, and despite your best efforts (and presumably you did your best, even if that wasn't always what Dr. Phil would've done) he's chosen to be a layabout. Now he has to fix that. He doesn't need therapy, he needs to get off his ass.

I suggest you let him read this thread.

StG

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Here's the thing. If he doesn't support the war, then it['s all kinds of bad to pressure him into the military. It would be exactly the wrong choice for him, and wrong of you to push him into it.
He may not politically support this war, but that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't believe in a national military force. I don't agree with this war either, but I believe the military offers an incentive to individuals that are willing to participate in it.
If he enlists, there is a fairly high chance that he may be involved in the war in some way. Is this something you really want?
That isn't my first choice, no. Neither is it something to be ashamed of regardless of whether you agree with the choices of politicians.

Do you want him to put aside his own personal beliefs, and go and fight for a cause that he thinks unjust? Do you really want your son to be the type of person who puts aside his own moral principles for pay?No, in the same way I wouldn't want to see him put aside his moral principles to feed himself on the streets. Maybe I'm naive, but I'm certain that the military isn't just about aggression, but can serve a community and society in a productive manner. In my younger days, I wouldn't have argued with someone who proposed that the military was nothing more than a bunch of warmongers, but experience has taught that isn't the case. In many cases military activities are, in fact, intended to protect and serve our own nation and humanity at large. Yes, I find it somewhat ironic to say that, but I've experienced firsthand the humanitarian efforts of our military during a natural disaster. My own husband spent six years in the military and learned a trade that supported our family when he became a civilian. Before that he was delivering pizza. He has very strong moral values, yet got a lot out of a military service that did not involve killing people.

You say that you are encouraging him not to let go of the things he likes. Yet you are pressing him into going against what he believes in. How do you reconcile that?
Read above. I'm hoping he can reconcile enjoying the things he likes to do with doing something productive. Not everyone gets lead a glamorous life in which they can do whatever the hell they want. Most everyone has a boss and has to do a job they may not like. I don't believe I enjoy paying taxes, and I feel that I'm taxed too much for services that don't meet my standards. But guess what, that's life. It doesn't make me less principled for contributing to the fund for a war I don't agree with. Neither does it make a person less principled for serving his country by providing weather reports to troops on the ground.

Maybe not. It's quite possible that he will never see combat. Maybe he will spend his career several thousand miles from the action, pushing paper, making sure that the front line troops get supplied with bullets on a regular basis.

Even so, that will still be participation in a war that is against his own moral principles. Doing so would still mean abandoning what he believes to be right.I disagree. I see an opportunity for him to improve his own future while serving his country and potentially improving someone else's. There's nothing wrong with getting something lasting out of the experience; it's the least the country can do for volunteer personnel. It isn't necessarily a sure thing that he would not see combat, but as a mother, I can only hope the best for him. Living on the streets and spending the rest of his life struggling is also not a sure thing that he wouldn't find himself shedding his moral principles. And it also offers a lot less opportunity for his future.

Is that what you want for him?
What I want for him is a good future. Could he get it through the military? Sure. Could he lose it forever through the military? Sure. Same answers for a young man in crisis outside the military I suspect.

Suppose you succeed in pressing him into it? Will that really "straighten him out?" Certainly it will open up career paths for him. But will it help him as a person?
Maybe. Seems to be a few people around here with anecdotal data indicating it's possible. No doubt there are many more outside of the Dope.

Probably he will hate the job. Perhaps he will hate himself for it. Quite likely he will resent you for pushing him into it. Maybe pushing him down this path will totally screw him up as a person.
All quite possible. He'd probably hate prison too and he might blame me as well if he ended up there because he didn't feel I did a good enough job as a mother. And maybe I haven't. Raising a troubled teen is not easy for even the best parents and there's no way to prepare yourself. If you don't think I'm second-guessing every decision I make with regard to him, you'd be dead wrong. I wonder everyday how to help my boy and if I'm doing the right thing that will someday allow him to enjoy his life and the fruits of his labor, as well as appreciate where he came from and how he overcame his challenges. Some people suggest he will thank me some day for the choices I've made. I don't really know, but even if he never spoke to me again, if he turned himself around for the better, that'd be all the thanks I need. I've shed a lot of tears over this boy, but I know without a doubt that he's worth it.

Seriously, if he does not find the military to be an attractive career, then pushing him into it against his will is a bad idea.
Well, you may be right. I can't make his choices for him. I can't even manage to push him back into school. Nobody seems to be able to do that, so it's all moot. My brain is telling me, I don't want him to rely on me to make those life-changing decisions, but what kind of parent would I be if I didn't encourage him, challenge him to explore his options?

[robby]

I'm coming in late to this thread, but I will add that enlisting in the Navy can be a very good thing for a lot of young people. Both my wife and I served as officers in the Navy--we would have no problem encouraging our son to serve in the Navy as well, either as an officer or enlisted.

If your son wants a good picture about what Navy life is like, I suggest he watch some or all of the recent 10-part PBS series Carrier (http://www.pbs.org/weta/carrier/). It's the most realistic portrayal of life in the Navy that I have ever seen.

FWIW, several of sailors depicted in the series do not support our Iraq policy (nor do I, for that matter). However, the first thing you learn in the military is that the military does not set policy. That is the job of politicians.

I have always had enough faith in our nation and its institutions that I had no problem following the lawful orders of my military superiors, up to the Commander-in-Chief, even if I did not personally agree with the policy decisions made. I did not hate my job, nor did I hate myself. On the contrary, I was extremely proud of my service.

The oath an enlisted person takes in the U.S. military is:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Would the French Foreign Legion take him? IIRC you are allowed to leave after 6 months or so if you want.

With regard to getting him a job, are you a shareholder in a local business or a business with a local office? Or you could ask him if he's applied to the local fast food places; if he complains about that, remind him that several of the McDonalds board started by flipping burgers.
Hah, I wish. But even then I wonder how employable he is at this point. I have gotten him a job before and he abandoned it (ok, that was a couple of years ago) because he thought the work was demeaning. It was kind of demeaning, but I ended up taking it over because I needed the extra money. He didn't see a penny of it. So, it wasn't all that bad, but then again maturity is the determining factor there. Wonder what it was? I worked in a business in a strip mall that hired high school kids to clean the parking lot (sweep walkways and pick up trash out of the gardens and lot). I knew the landlord, so I recommended him for it. They hired him to work on a very flexible schedule, but the schedule he chose didn't meet the needs of the tenants and they complained. I was informed, he was warned and decided he didn't want to put more effort into it. My husband and I ended up taking the job for the rest of the season after an embarrassing phone call with the landlord that my son wasn't cutting it.

It's not likely I'll be recommending him for a job any time soon.

[Peter Morris]

Maybe. Seems to be a few people around here with anecdotal data indicating it's possible. No doubt there are many more outside of the Dope.


Sure, and there's also anecdotal evidence of many Viet Nam veterans who were forced into service during a war that they didn't agree with. Look at them, and understand that this is what you might be doing to your son.


you know, reading your comments, I can't help feeling that maybe some of the blame lies with you. You report that he wants to look for a job, and is actively sending out applications. You say he wants you to help him get a job, but you don't know how. Maybe you can help him best by actually lending him moral support and encouraging him to pursue this path. Stop sneering at him, just because he rejects the job that YOU have chosen.


What exactly has he done that's so bad? He doesn't do chores, and what else?Is that it? Is he doing drugs? Stealing? Anything particularly bad? You haven't said.

It sounds to me like he's perfectly ordinary. So what if he goes for a minimum wage job? Is that really so bad? Maybe he'd be happy serving burgers. What exactly is your objection to this.

[Loach]

Sure, and there's also anecdotal evidence of many Viet Nam veterans who were forced into service during a war that they didn't agree with. Look at them, and understand that this is what you might be doing to your son.


you know, reading your comments, I can't help feeling that maybe some of the blame lies with you. You report that he wants to look for a job, and is actively sending out applications. You say he wants you to help him get a job, but you don't know how. Maybe you can help him best by actually lending him moral support and encouraging him to pursue this path. Stop sneering at him, just because he rejects the job that YOU have chosen.


What exactly has he done that's so bad? He doesn't do chores, and what else?Is that it? Is he doing drugs? Stealing? Anything particularly bad? You haven't said.

It sounds to me like he's perfectly ordinary. So what if he goes for a minimum wage job? Is that really so bad? Maybe he'd be happy serving burgers. What exactly is your objection to this.

She isn't forcing him into the military. She can't. He's an adult. Comparing that to a draft is... well I can think of a few words but lets just go with wrong.

The only experience I have with the Job Corps is arresting those who are living at the nearest one. I'm sure it works for some but I have not seen much to recommend it.

[Peter Morris]

She isn't forcing him into the military. She can't. He's an adult. Comparing that to a draft is... well I can think of a few words but lets just go with wrong.

If it comes to that, the draft didn't exactly force preople into the military. It just gave them the choice between military service or criminal prosecution. Ali, for example, chose prosecution, cause no Viet Cong ever called him a nigger.

Well, she has decided that this is the only option for her son, and is putting extreme pressure on him to comply with her decision. But she is making remarks like, he can't be here, he's only got one more month, she can't legally refuse responsibility for a 17 year old, and so on. Seems to me that she's implying that her responsibility ends onm his 18th birthday. After that, it's join up or li8ve on the streets. No, she can't force him to join. But she can make threats.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

It sounds to me like he's perfectly ordinary. So what if he goes for a minimum wage job? Is that really so bad? Maybe he'd be happy serving burgers. What exactly is your objection to this.
You find it perfectly ordinary for a kid to drop out of school and don't think I should object to that?

Incidentally, if he enlists in the military it will be his choice, but I am encouraging him looking into based on what the military has to offer a young man of limited means and ambitions.

[Peter Morris]

Yes, it's perfectly ordinary. Many kids fails school. Fact of life. We can't all be scholars.

So, he's applying for jobs right now. Please explain what is your objection to that. Why don't you encourage him to do that?

You note that your husband delivered pizza before enlistment. Why not let your son deliver pizza for a while? What's your objection to that?

It seems that the military is the ONLY job you want for him, and wont accept anything else.

And seriously, you haven't said what your son is doing that is so terrible.

[Shagnasty]

Yes, it's perfectly ordinary. Many kids fails school. Fact of life. We can't all be scholars.

So, he's applying for jobs right now. Please explain what is your objection to that. Why don't you encourage him to do that?

You note that your husband delivered pizza before enlistment. Why not let your son deliver pizza for a while? What's your objection to that?

It seems that the military is the ONLY job you want for him, and wont accept anything else.

And seriously, you haven't said what your son is doing that is so terrible.

A parent's job is to instill wisdom in their kids and encourage them to make good decisions. I had no idea what I was doing when I was 17 and my stepfather arranged for me to go to Tulane on a full scholarship. I would never have figured out how to do that on my own and might still be in the town of 1,300 people that I grew up in if not for that. My brother is very smart but hates academic things in particular. My mother arranged for him to go into the Marines and it worked out great as well. My youngest brother actually got expelled from high school for one of those zero tolerance nightmare stories that you read about. It was 100% bogus but she just put him in community college for what would have been his senior year of high school. After a series of wise decisions, he has a bachelor's degree from LSU and graduated in December.

If parents can't put wise pressure on their kids, I don't know who can. A 17 year old is not an adult even though they may be technically approaching that point. Still 18 year olds are generally not world savvy either. They haven't been around enough to know how the world works. I am 34 and my family still puts pressure on me for some critical things. I don't have to take the advice but I would be stupid not to listen to people twice as old as me who have dealt with the same things.

If I let my daughters do what they wanted, they would just sit around eating candy and watching Spongebob Squarepants all day. A parent's job is to guide and encourage at differing levels of force depending on the issue at hand.

[Loach]

If it comes to that, the draft didn't exactly force preople into the military. It just gave them the choice between military service or criminal prosecution. Ali, for example, chose prosecution, cause no Viet Cong ever called him a nigger.

Well, she has decided that this is the only option for her son, and is putting extreme pressure on him to comply with her decision. But she is making remarks like, he can't be here, he's only got one more month, she can't legally refuse responsibility for a 17 year old, and so on. Seems to me that she's implying that her responsibility ends onm his 18th birthday. After that, it's join up or li8ve on the streets. No, she can't force him to join. But she can make threats.

I think I'll just walk away shaking my head.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Yes, it's perfectly ordinary. Many kids fails school. Fact of life. We can't all be scholars.

So, he's applying for jobs right now. Please explain what is your objection to that. Why don't you encourage him to do that?

You note that your husband delivered pizza before enlistment. Why not let your son deliver pizza for a while? What's your objection to that?

It seems that the military is the ONLY job you want for him, and wont accept anything else.

And seriously, you haven't said what your son is doing that is so terrible.
Without going into too much detail about my son's issues (because I prefer not to), I think if you read my posts again you might get an inkling of why I can't have my son in our house while he is in his current mode of operation.

I'm not sure how you got the idea that my sole recommendation to him is the military. It's not and I have been looking for some type of program that would work out him for some time now. Why does it have to be a "program"? Because he needs structure and discipline that he can provide for himself. Evidently, that I can't provide either based on the fact that he's rejected parental authority of any kind.

Why do I want that so badly for him? Because he has dreams and he's my kid and I want a better life for him. I want him to have options later on down the road because he built his foundation now. Why should I accept that my bright kid who scores so well on tests but won't sit down and write a paper drops out of school because he might be happier delivering pizzas? If you knew my kid, you'd know he doesn't want to deliver pizzas. He doesn't want a McJob. He wants to go to college. He wants his dream job. All I'm trying to do is encourage to make the path to those things smoother. It's not going to be easier to accomplish if he drops out of school. Maybe it's still possible with a GED, but he's just not building a foundation, he's building habits. When the going gets tough and the kid quits, the kid's chance of success is bottoming out. You can't expect that things will be different because you're in college now. You have to make things different. That takes discipline. Discipline is not dropping out of school with just a few credits to go because the idea of being in school after the 18th birthday doesn't appeal to you.

Some people have to graduate from the School of Hard Knocks before they can start building their lives. Some kids don't have the privilege of a family who cares enough to not continue to enable the defeating behaviors. I wish and every day I still hope my kid is not the one in the first sentence. But, damn it, I want him to achieve his dreams some day and I'll keep badgering him about going back to school every day which IS my FIRST CHOICE. And if that doesn't work out, I'm going to recommend him look at any other alternative that offers him some training. That includes the military, Job Corps or whatever else I can find.

It's not that I MUST have him in the military, and I don't know where you got that idea. But I would like to see this kid plan ahead some. I think I already mentioned that my non-negotiable rule for coming back to this house is to go to school (not the military) every day. He has decided he cannot abide by that rule. He is making choices and I don't think it's out of line to say that they are very poor ones.

[gravitycrash]

Peter Morris What the hell are you going on about? Did you even read this thread? wow.

[Peter Morris]

Without going into too much detail about my son's issues (because I prefer not to),

On the contrary, please do tell us what your son's issues are. You describe him as wayward. Please tell us what form his waywardness takes.

So far you've told us that he failed to take out the trash.

Is that it? Or do you have anything else.


I'm serious here. Perhaps if you told us what your son is doing wrong we'd be in a better position to give you advice.

I'm not sure how you got the idea that my sole recommendation to him is the military.

From your posts.

I'll go further than that. Go look at your first post in the thread. Not only do you want him in the military. You have picked out the NAVY specifically for him. And you are upset by his comments that the Air Force would be better.

No, you don't want him in the air force, you want him in the Navy.

Really, your whole theme in this thread has been asking advice about how to force your son to join the military. You are not interested in anything else.

Why should I accept that my bright kid who scores so well on tests but won't sit down and write a paper drops out of school because he might be happier delivering pizzas?

As a first job straight out of school, its fine. Deliver pizzas for a few months, then move
to a better job based on a recommendation from his boss at the pizza place. That's what your husband did.

It's possible that after a few months delivering pizza he'll decide of his own choice to join the military. Just like your husband. Or he might go down some other path.


If you knew my kid, you'd know he doesn't want to deliver pizzas.

Or maybe its YOU that objects to it. So, your husband delivered pizza for a while, then he joined the military. You think your son should cut out the pizza part and proceed straight to military.

Maybe your husband enjoyed that, but it doesn't follow that it's right for your son.

It's not that I MUST have him in the military, and I don't know where you got that idea.

I got that idea from your thread title, and your comments in your posts.

But I would like to see this kid plan ahead some. I think I already mentioned that my non-negotiable rule for coming back to this house is to go to school (not the military) every day.

From what you've told us, he doesn't like school, and wants to get a job instead. Why won't you support him in this?

So, instead of going to school, he delivers pizzas. That's good honest work. Can he live under your roof as a pizza deliverer?

[SSG Schwartz]

Here's the thing. If he doesn't support the war, then it['s all kinds of bad to pressure him into the military. It would be exactly the wrong choice for him, and wrong of you to push him into it.

If he enlists, there is a fairly high chance that he may be involved in the war in some way. Is this something you really want? Do you want him to put aside his own personal beliefs, and go and fight for a cause that he thinks unjust? Do you really want your son to be the type of person who puts aside his own moral principles for pay?

You say that you are encouraging him not to let go of the things he likes. Yet you are pressing him into going against what he believes in. How do you reconcile that?...
Maybe not. It's quite possible that he will never see combat. Maybe he will spend his career several thousand miles from the action, pushing paper, making sure that the front line troops get supplied with bullets on a regular basis.

Even so, that will still be participation in a war that is against his own moral principles. Doing so would still mean abandoning what he believes to be right.

Is that what you want for him?





Really, do you think all Soldiers blindly follow the leaders and agree with the Commander in Chief on everything? Do you really think that all troops enlist in the Military to fight wars? Do you really believe that all persons who have joined the Uniformed Services since 20010911 only joined because they fully support the war in Iraq, or fully support the war in Afghanistan?

Let's take an example, based upon your position. Say a Soldier has 19 years in when a war he doesn't agree with begins. Should he be allowed to refuse to serve? Should we not have a standing Army because you don't agree with the current operations?

Do you really, and I ask this sincerely, believe that Service to Country, that Respect for our Nation, and career opportunities presented by Military service should be shunned because you don't agree with the current missions of US troops?

[Sorry for the hi-jack]

SSG Schwartz

[missred]

BEG, since he isn't interested in Job Corps or the military and from what I've gotten from your posts, his grades likely aren't good enough to get into college, even if it was in the budget, what about trade school?

Not everyone is cut out for jobs that require college. Does he have any mechanical or construction interests? I know what auto mechanics, plumbers, electricians, et al make...and it's nothing to sneeze at! He likely would qualify for student loans to cover a large share of the expenses and could work in a low level job in his field while going to school (around here, a lot of those begin at considerably more than flipping burgers).

Just a thought.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

On the contrary, please do tell us what your son's issues are. You describe him as wayward. Please tell us what form his waywardness takes.
I already described his waywardness in as great of detail that I care to. This thread is not about debating the degree of his waywardness. If you read my posts again (I did), you'll note I already indicated the extent of it. But here, I'll give you a hand:
This boy has issues. He's got juvenile misdemeanor convictions which would be a potential disqualifier. He's got serious issues with oppositional behavior and problems with authority. My biggest concern is that he ends up making some really bad decisions and continuing behavior that lands him in jail. He doesn't have anything really to fall back on with no diploma, no skills, no stability. He's basically in survival mode, though, and has no idea how to improve his situation. Well, he knows, but he's not motivated enough to do what he needs to do, I guess.

So far you've told us that he failed to take out the trash.
Nope. You've just decided to ignore most of what I have said.

Is that it? Or do you have anything else.

I'm serious here. Perhaps if you told us what your son is doing wrong we'd be in a better position to give you advice.
Actually, I received the information I was looking for from people who were more interested in discussing my actual questions than debating whether I'm overreacting to my son's problems. I thank our doper recruiters who provided me information via PM. It turns out his problems are serious enough that it looks like he would be disqualified from military service at this time. It is not an option.
I'll go further than that. Go look at your first post in the thread. Not only do you want him in the military. You have picked out the NAVY specifically for him. And you are upset by his comments that the Air Force would be better.

No, you don't want him in the air force, you want him in the Navy.
Yes, I would rather see my son serving in the military than failing to support himself and prepare for his future. I indicated that I thought the Navy might be better fit than the Air Force as he is interested in oceanic studies. The Navy obviously has positions that put in on, in, or near the ocean. I was also under the impression that he would have a much more difficult time achieving qualifications in a more selective branch and I was suggesting a branch that looked somewhat easier to access.
Really, your whole theme in this thread has been asking advice about how to force your son to join the military. You are not interested in anything else.
There's nothing in my posts indicating that I intended to force him into anything. You're spinning this all on your own. As I said before, it's not even very likely that I could succeed at that. I'm simply, again, trying to convince him to CONSIDER his options. He makes his own choices, I would like him make better, more informed choices. It seems to be a moot point now, since we've ruled out military service as a viable option.

Oh, and the Job Corps is not military service, but having been suggested in this thread as an option, it's something I also looked into and discussed with my son. So, you're just plain wrong.

As a first job straight out of school, its fine. Deliver pizzas for a few months, then move to a better job based on a recommendation from his boss at the pizza place. That's what your husband did.
Actually, my husband delivered pizzas during his military service. My point was that it was the military that provided him trade skills that ended up supporting his family, not the pizza delivery. The pizza delivery simply gave him extra pay to meet his financial obligations. The difference between my son and my husband at that age was that he followed the house rules, went to school and worked to support himself. When he determined that school wasn't working out for him, he chose the military to prepare him for a better future. Why is that so difficult to understand?

It's possible that after a few months delivering pizza he'll decide of his own choice to join the military. Just like your husband. Or he might go down some other path.
...
From what you've told us, he doesn't like school, and wants to get a job instead. Why won't you support him in this?
If you can figure out a way to deliver pizzas without a car then you're savvier than my son. He says he's applied for several retail and food service openings and has yet to receive one call back. He is hitting a wall when he calls back himself to inquire about the openings. His employment options are minimal at this point and he cannot support himself. He refuses to go to the school he's enrolled in that doesn't cost him anything. He refuses to consider any other option than to continue his job search which isn't going well at all. You got any other ideas? It's easy to say he can get a job, but when you don't have a lot to offer employers, it's not so easy to get one. He may have to consider lowering his standards considerably.

This is not the Pit, so I really can't tell you what I think you're being, but I will say I think you entirely missed the point of my OP.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

BEG, since he isn't interested in Job Corps or the military and from what I've gotten from your posts, his grades likely aren't good enough to get into college, even if it was in the budget, what about trade school?

Not everyone is cut out for jobs that require college. Does he have any mechanical or construction interests? I know what auto mechanics, plumbers, electricians, et al make...and it's nothing to sneeze at! He likely would qualify for student loans to cover a large share of the expenses and could work in a low level job in his field while going to school (around here, a lot of those begin at considerably more than flipping burgers).

Just a thought.
And a good one. Before we enrolled him in the charter school that he's currently not attending, we looked into trade schools. It might be something to again consider at this time.

Unfortunately, I think, for the time being, he's just not interested in school at all. Perhaps some further pavement pounding, continuing to face the inability to support himself, and running out of friends willing to carry him will convince him otherwise.

The sad thing is that our whole family is dying to see him make some good choices and standing by waiting for the best opportunity to give him a boost. But nobody wants to enable his poor choices anymore. I just found out his grandparents had been planning to give him a graduation gift of a trip to Hawaii, but that's been put on hold because he, well, isn't going to graduate. He was supposed to get to enjoy his post-graduation summer. We all wanted that. I hope he comes around because it's so frustrating to see him flounder and he doesn't realize that he's fortunate to have so many people that do care and want desperately to help. Many of his classmates didn't even have that. But, he's turned his backs on us all. :(

The input has been great and very much appreciated, guys! Thanks for letting me vent some, too.

[Shagnasty]

BEG, since he isn't interested in Job Corps or the military and from what I've gotten from your posts, his grades likely aren't good enough to get into college, even if it was in the budget, what about trade school?

Given an honest change of motivation, virtually anyone can get a 4 year college degree in the U.S. I already mentioned that my brother did it from a pretty good school after being flat-out expelled from high school. Many if not most colleges don't have many admission standards at all. We aren't talking about Harvard, Stanford, or MIT here but it serves the purpose just fine. Community colleges usually have open admission too. If someone really wants to go to a good college, they can enter the local community college system and then transfer to a 4 year school after the second year. That isn't uncommon even for the really good state schools. There is no point in which your chances for a good 4 year degree are over and there are multiple ways to redeem yourself as long as you have enough self-discipline.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

There is no point in which your chances for a good 4 year degree are over and there are multiple ways to redeem yourself as long as you have enough self-discipline.
Well put. The self-discipline is critical and really what I'm hoping to encourage in him. That may be the one thing that really is holding him back. I do believe that if he had even a little bit of that, he'd still be going to school as he's really very close to completion and intelligent enough to pass easily. The motivation to do so just isn't there.

[Fretful Porpentine]

I know nothing whatsoever about military service, so I'm not going to weigh in on that part of the discussion, and I don't have kids either. But as a college instructor I do know a bit about unmotivated 17- and 18-year-olds, so I'll offer such advice as I have:

Take several big steps back. Don't offer advice, don't shop around for programs that will take him, don't plead, don't cajole, don't make excuses for him, don't bail him out if he gets into trouble. You've already made it clear that he has a place to stay if he follows the house rules; now it's all on him. He's an adult, or nearly so, and he needs to figure out on his own how the adult world works. If he's as bright as you say he is, he'll probably get it sooner rather than later, once this is no longer a power struggle between him and you. It sounds like this has become such an emotional tug of war that he's firmly locked in I Don't Wanna And You Can't Make Me mode, and once you take the emotions and the struggle out of the equation, I think there's a good chance he'll be able to make more rational decisions than he's been making. It may not happen right away; I think one of the toughest things for parents to accept is that some kids need to fail a bit before they can succeed. But that's OK, because as other people have pointed out, there are plenty of second chances in life and plenty of paths that work (GEDs, community college, trade school -- and, yes, military service). But whatever he chooses, he needs to come to it on his own, or at least feel like he has.

Probably easier said than done, but that's my two cents, anyway.

[dangermom]

I think Fretful has some really good thoughts. It seems to me that at this point, mentioning his future every day is going to backfire. Here's hoping your son will get a clue and do a turnaround.

Also, Peter, you're the only one reading all that stuff into this thread. Perhaps that should give you a hint that you are overreacting.

[Sunrazor]

I'm skipping all of the other posts, so this may be redundant or it may be exactly opposed to what others have posted; nonetheless, here's my completely biased opinion on the matter:

Enlistment could be the best thing that ever happened to an aimless kid. It also could be the worst.

If there are no serious problems -- psychological issues, drug addiction, that kind of stuff -- the military could provide a much-needed framework for self-discipline, pride and achievement. It was the best thing that ever happened to me and one of my brothers. The other two ... well, they have some fond memories, but alcoholism and drug addiction make any kind of framework building iffy at best.

Enlistment actually could be harder on you than on your youngster, especially at first. Moms (and some dads) nowadays are shocked to learn that their darlings are not allowed any communication with the outside world during most of basic training. The reason for this should be pretty obvious; it's hard to indoctrinate a young enlistee when he/she is constantly phoning home to complain about how hard life is in boot camp. Basic training works on the same two-part principle it's always worked on -- break the individual down until he/she has no self esteem or individuality whatsoever, then rebuild the person by teaching skills and instilling pride. Parents and other loved ones are invariably amazed at the transformation when they see the new soldier/sailor after basic training; they'd be horrified to see the whimpering mass of jelly that person was just a few weeks before.

Success after basic training then depends on the individual. If he has learned to use the skills and is willing to be part of the unit, he'll succeed. If he refuses or is handicapped by substance abuse or psychological issues, he'll be ostracized by the rest of the unit and be in worse shape than before.

I don't know how you persuade an obstreperous youth to do what's best for himself. If you figure that out, call me -- we'll make millions on the book rights.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Fretful, your advice is valuable and mirrors much of the advice I've been getting from various people involved with my son. I thank you for your input. It's not that I'm trying to be bullheaded about this. Like you said, it's hard to step aside and watch your children fail without intervening. It goes against your nature as a parent. Sometimes, it's easier when the failure is doesn't seem that serious and you know it's going to be a safe and valuable learning experience. It's much different when they're at a critical turning point in their lives and the choices have long-lasting effects.

I'm trying to do what you've suggested and it's taking me some time to step back slowly, while still making sure my son knows I'm there for him when he's ready to make some positive changes. But I understand that I must make some very difficult decisions as well. My own mother told me to be clear with our expectations of him and stick to them. I want so much to protect him from hardship, but I no longer can without stunting his personal growth.

I'm listening and learning as I struggle through this process as a parent. I hope the second one goes a little easier because, damn, I had no idea it was this hard. When you hug your kids tonight, people, make sure they know you care more about them than they could ever imagine. I'm going to do that again the next opportunity I get. Then, I'm going to step aside and wait for my son to dig deep and find the man inside I know he can be.

[Loach]

BEG I am going through a very similar situation right now with my 18 year old step son. I don't wish to go into details but here is how we felt about it. We gave him all the tools to be successful in school. Actually doing it was up to him. He failed despite his intelligence. Once he left school we were willing to help him as long as he was working towards some goal. His only rent was to help out a bit around the house. Things that would take less than an hour a day for the most part. Cheapest rent in the state. He wouldn't do that either. Now his ass is out the door. Grandma is choosing to coodle him for the moment. As a parent it is our responsibility to provide support, not provide a place to squat and play video games all day. Once they reach adulthood they have to make adult choices. Sometimes the choices are wrong. You laid the foundation. What he chooses to do with it is up to him.

[Rascal's Mom]

The kindness I have been a recipient of on the Dope just about makes me cry. It's good to know I'm not alone and have people to share my struggles with even if only anonymously. It's harder to do it face-to-face because it feels so embarrassing and sometimes it makes people squirm. I guess that's why I tend to be so private.

But how can I really express my thanks to have this outlet with people like you guys?

*hugs for everyone* :)

You are absolutely not alone! My heart is going out to you. I don't have time now to read the rest of this thread, but I wanted you to know, you are most decidedly part of a sisterhood here. I have been where you are, and to some degree still am. My son, who is now 21, completed the first half of his basic training between his junior and senior year of high school. It was the last responsible thing he did. He ended up blowing off the second half the next summer, dropped out of high school, got arrested, you name it. Apparently he is now considering the military again (he attained his GED). I can't say much because I don't want the impression that I am forcing the issue. He is maturing at a snail's pace and I truly think military would be good for him as he thrives under structure.

Keep us posted. PM me if you ever need a good word.

[StGermain]

Brown Eyed Girl - Let me tell you about one of my sisters. She got pregnant by the first guy she slept with (she was out of high school). She married him. She got pregnant a second time, at which time he left and never came back. My parents took her in, she had the second baby. She continued to live with my parents, occassionally working, but job didn't last all that long. When my folks got tired of having a second family in the house, they bought her a house. She worked, more or less, at two-bit jobs and didn't maintain the house, which started to go to ruin. My sister sponged off her twin, she sponged off my parents, she sponged off me. The years went by and her kids grew up, meanwhile my sister didn't. She applied for credit in the kids names as soon as she could and trashed their credit before they had a chance to have a start in an adult life. My sister is verging on 50 years old, and my mother decides that now that my father's dead, she's tired of flushing her retirement money down the toilet. She sold the house my sister was living at for a loss. It was almost uninhabitable - in fact, unbeknownst to everyone, my sister was living at a weekly motel rental because she couldn't live in the house. Suddenly my sister is expected to grow up.

Your instinct is that by being unconditionally supportive you're guiding your child live up to his potential. What you're doing is infantalizing him until he can't live as an adult. Growing up happens to us all. Whether it's at 18 or at 50 is up to you.

StG

[Peter Morris]

Really, do you think all Soldiers blindly follow the leaders and agree with the Commander in Chief on everything? ...

Of course I don't. They are professionals who will fight for any cause they are sent to, be it a just one, or an evil one. And that's the whole point.

Do you really, and I ask this sincerely, believe that Service to Country, that Respect for our Nation, and career opportunities presented by Military service should be shunned because you don't agree with the current missions of US troops? SSG Schwartz

Yes.

The only valid reason to fight is because you believe in the justness of the fight. A moral person will take a stand against evil, put his own life on the line to bring about its destruction. Anyone who does this is a hero.

On the other hand, if you fight for the "career opportunities", i.e. money, that it provides, then you are nothing more than a hired thug.

As for the slogans "serving your country" and "respect for the nation" well yeah, I'm all for that. But that isn't what the military does, is it? You, sir, are not employed by "your country." You are employed by politicians. You are serving George Bush. That is different.


And in all sincerity I think that this war is against the interests of the USA. Every day you fight it the USA suffers a little more damage. Don't you agree?

You, sir, Mr Military Recruiter, are harmful to the country. Every time you (or one of your recruitment colleages) persuades a kid to go to Iraq, and the kid gets his damn fool head blown off, you do a bit of harm to your nation. You are serving George Bush by doing that. You are not serving your country, nor honouring it.

[gravitycrash]

And how does this relate to the OP? Seriously, take it to the pit or shut up.

[Peter Morris]

Also, Peter, you're the only one reading all that stuff into this thread.

All what stuff?

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Of course I don't. They are professionals who will fight for any cause they are sent to, be it a just one, or an evil one. And that's the whole point.



Yes.

The only valid reason to fight is because you believe in the justness of the fight. A moral person will take a stand against evil, put his own life on the line to bring about its destruction. Anyone who does this is a hero.

On the other hand, if you fight for the "career opportunities", i.e. money, that it provides, then you are nothing more than a hired thug.

As for the slogans "serving your country" and "respect for the nation" well yeah, I'm all for that. But that isn't what the military does, is it? You, sir, are not employed by "your country." You are employed by politicians. You are serving George Bush. That is different.


And in all sincerity I think that this war is against the interests of the USA. Every day you fight it the USA suffers a little more damage. Don't you agree?

You, sir, Mr Military Recruiter, are harmful to the country. Every time you (or one of your recruitment colleages) persuades a kid to go to Iraq, and the kid gets his damn fool head blown off, you do a bit of harm to your nation. You are serving George Bush by doing that. You are not serving your country, nor honouring it.

Congratulations on completing your massive dump on my thread. There's only one place for this sewage. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=467421)

[Peter Morris]

And how does this relate to the OP? .

Just that the military is not for everyone. Some people are willing to fight for an unjust cause, and they may prosper in the military. Other people have a serious moral objection to fighting for an unjust cause. And based on BEG's comments, her son is one of them.

Given his moral stance, attempting to persuade him to enlist is a bad idea.

[Peter Morris]

Congratulations on completing your massive dump on my thread. There's only one place for this sewage. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=467421)

Dump on your thread? Jeez.

Look, you asked for opinions on whether a military enlistment would help your son. It's plain that you wanted to hear "yes."

But I've given you a contrary opinion. I've told you why I don't think a military career would be beneficial to your son. I'm sorry that's not what you want to hear, but it's my opinion.

If you don't like someone's opinion contradicting yours then you are on the wrong message board.

[NinetyWt]

Just that the military is not for everyone. Just? Just this? Why then didn't you say that instead of being so rude?

[Sunrazor]

But I've given you a contrary opinion. I've told you why I don't think a military career would be beneficial to your son. I'm sorry that's not what you want to hear, but it's my opinion.

If you don't like someone's opinion contradicting yours then you are on the wrong message board.Pointing out that there's a downside to military service, ie. you can get your ass shot off, isn't a contrary opinion -- it's a visit to Obviousville.

I don't think anyone on SDMB actually likes the Iraq war, but that has nothing to do with BEG's original question. Of course everyone knows that military service carries certain inherent risks; training accidents, carelessness and poorly-maintained equipment claim a handful of lives every year. That's not the point. The point is that military service can and usually does teach purposeless and lost young people how to respect themselves and others and how to work as part of a larger team to achieve a common good. If you thought there was no chance of that ever happening, or if your personal experience in the military was that it rarely happened that way, that would be a contrary opinion. Which raises the question; What was your personal experience in the military?

[Skylark]

Your son sounds a lot like me. I joined, and it turned out pretty good for me. Stand up taller, better physical shape, more assertive, look people in the eye, all that jazz. It's not a non-stop joy ride, and I have been dicked over a few times (even by the recruiter), but overall my main regret is not joining sooner. Staff Sergeant Schwartz is a good guy and so is billyb0b.

Peter Morris is right, at least at one point: the military is not for everyone. Sometimes they just can't hack it. Sometimes it's just a different personality mixture, or they don't get what they wanted out of the experience. I've also known a lot of fuck ups who continue to be fuck ups until it's time for the military to fuck them up. Good riddance to them, and it's people like that who treat the military as their own rehab program, or think military lifestyle = nonstop drunken dumbassitude, that ruin it for everyone else. But for some it can be the best decision you ever make in your life.

If he doesn't even have a GED yet, I don't think he'll be able to enlist. I suppose if you sicced a recruiter on him, you could make it the recruiter's job to hound him into getting getting the GED. Remember, recruiters are doing a good job if they get 2 or 3 recruits a month, so they'll bust their ass if there's any chance he can make it.
SSGSchwartz pretty much covered this, but his recruiter will work with him to get that GED or diploma.

Also, why would a teenager think the Air Force is the only branch of military worth considering? I don't think he believes he's would get to fly, but he seems to think the USAF is the "best" of the branches
Because it's the "easiest", most civilian, highest quality of life, and requires the least amount of sacrifice. That is my (cynical) guess. As much as I dog the Chair Force (ho ho), it is a good branch that serves a very important role.

The Air Force is the way it is because it has to be. Nobody's digging trenches or crammed inside tin cans; just about everybody in there, if not some generic support role, is a mechanic or engineer or government-sponsored brainiac in some form or another. Once someone receives their free training and serves out their four or six year commitment they're likely to find some real cushy jobs on the outside, so a lot of effort in retention is put in maintaining a high quality of life. That's why you'll find Dorms (not barracks!), every airman his own room, in campuses that are overall nicer than some Marine Gunnies might stay in their entire lives even on vacation. Shoot, their space program is bigger in some ways than NASA's.

I'll still dog those cake eating zoomies 'til the day I die, but off the record they're alright.

The other person is my little brother. He signed up for the Marine Corps when there wasn't any war going on. My mother pressured him in a big way because his hopes were falling apart quickly. After he signed the papers, he decided he didn't want to enlist after all. Bad move. He failed to show up for all kinds of things and the Marine Military Police actually showed up at our house one day based one my mother's arrangements. Rifles in hand, they woke him up from a dead sleep early one morning, gave him 5 minutes to grab essentials and he was on a plane to San Diego by mid day. He got stationed in Japan and it was the best thing that ever happened to him. Today, he is solidly middle class and an awesome father and husband. Sometimes it takes shock treatment to correct destructive behavior of any sort and the military is a good way to do that.
That is hardcore.

Most people have their own enlistment stories, some more colorful than others, but for what it's worth his is the "best" I've heard. Glad to hear it was all for the positive in the end.



What other sorts of things is he interested in? Some of the stuff you mentioned may translate to Mass Communications Specialist (formerly Journalist rating).

[Peter Morris]

Pointing out that there's a downside to military service, ie. you can get your ass shot off, isn't a contrary opinion -- it's a visit to Obviousville.

Except, of course, that isn't the objection that I raised. In fact it's a pretty big strawman. My objection is totally different.

I don't think anyone on SDMB actually likes the Iraq war, but that has nothing to do with BEG's original question.

On the contrary, it is directly relevant.

The point is that the OP has discussed the matter of military service with her son. Her son has expressed an ethical objection to the war in Iraq.

Note that, because it's important. It isn't that he's afraid of getting his ass shot off. It's because he has an objection based on moral principal.

Some people suggest that he should set aside his personal feelings, and go anyway, because it will give him a higher salary than a McJob. Well, yes, certainly it will do that. But what else will it do for him? It will teach him to be a hypocrite. It will teach him to sell out. It will teach him to betray his principles. It will teach him to pursue personal gain at the expense of personal integrity.

I don't think that military service will make him a better person. Whatever problems he's having at the moment, I can't see them being helped by asking him to betray his principles.

[John Carter of Mars]

First, I'll admit to committing a Cardinal Sin and not reading the whole thread. Here goes anyway:

I dropped out of school and joined the Air Force a few days after I turned 17. Got a GED in there, and entered college after my four years of service was over. Now I'm an oddity, a HS dropout with a college degree.

Joining the military then was one of the best things I ever did. It was a good place to grow up, and after four years of working I was more ready to be serious about school.

I'm not sure that they will take dropouts any more, my story is from a long time ago. Good luck to your son. I hope it works out.

[Sunrazor]

Some people suggest that he should set aside his personal feelings, and go anyway, because it will give him a higher salary than a McJob. Well, yes, certainly it will do that. But what else will it do for him? It will teach him to be a hypocrite. It will teach him to sell out. It will teach him to betray his principles. It will teach him to pursue personal gain at the expense of personal integrity.

I don't think that military service will make him a better person. Whatever problems he's having at the moment, I can't see them being helped by asking him to betray his principles.My own son disagrees with the "Iraq policy," but that didn't prevent him from enlisting in the Navy and it won't prevent him from deploying to Bahrain next month in support of the guys in Iraq. He's proud to serve and intellectual enough to separate his personal feelings from his need for training and a salary and his commitment to serve. That's not hypocrisy, that's professionalism. In fact, it just might be a huge character builder for the lad to serve and do well in an organization that is being required to perform a mission that almost no one supports any more. If the rest of us can love the troops while hating the war, I don't see why BEG's son can't learn the same distinction.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Sunrazor, I'm sure he can. He's never expressed any disrespect whatsoever towards military personnel or vets. He's simply not a Bush fan and holds the very common belief that we went into Iraq for all the wrong reasons and we don't belong there. I'll be sure to remind him, if nothing else, to register to vote! :)

[Brown Eyed Girl]

The point is that the OP has discussed the matter of military service with her son. Her son has expressed an ethical objection to the war in Iraq.
Despite the fact that it's been pointed out several times in numerous threads that military service does not equal solely serving in Iraq, you seem to think that it does. There are plenty of servicemen and women who never set foot in Iraq, so IMHO that's a lousy reason to rule out every other opportunity military enlistment offers.

[Peter Morris]

My own son disagrees with the "Iraq policy," but that didn't prevent him from enlisting in the Navy and it won't prevent him from deploying to Bahrain next month in support of the guys in Iraq. He's proud to serve and intellectual enough to separate his personal feelings from his need for training and a salary and his commitment to serve. That's not hypocrisy, that's professionalism..


Perhaps you would care to come to this thread (http://tinyurl.com/4srgdw) and explain why I should respect him for that.