Fucking bitch

[put down the sabre]

So I'm coming to the end of my first year in the US.

Was sat in a bar today talking with (American) friends about what I liked, and what I don't like. Was talking about how the Pledge of Allegiance and flag-fetish make me vaguely uncomfortable, but different strokes for different folks and all that.

This woman sat next to me (there were 3 of us, and 3 of them) cuts in with an (angry) "excuse me you come from a country with a monarchy" - seems she was really angry about me not being uniformly positive about the USA. I was sober -- on first drink -- she had had a few, I think, but wasn't obviously very drunk.

We argued for a bit, with me mostly being sarcastic ("thank you for reminding me of the UK's political system"). She's losing, and getting embarrassed, and she calls me a "fucking cunt". Well, how nice. Me and my friends wonder aloud why she thinks the vagina is negative. Her friends giggle, she's on her own.

Thanks for ruining my night, you rude, jingoistic bitch.

pdts

(Somewhat angry also at my friend for dragging me away when I wanted to tell her, as I was leaving, that if she is so keen to defend her country there's a shortage of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan; my friend was just trying to help though.)

[Cisco]

Cry me a fucking river. Maybe she was drunk and disorderly but she had a point regarding politeness - don't criticize a place you're visiting. Be it someone's home, another state, or another country, it's rude.

[put down the sabre]

Cry me a fucking river. Maybe she was drunk and disorderly but she had a point regarding politeness - don't criticize a place you're visiting. Be it someone's home, another state, or another country, it's rude.

(1) I live here.
(2) I was asked for my opinion.
(3) Fuck you.

There's a world of difference between visiting someone's home/state/country and mouthing off to people who don't want to hear it, and having a serious, intelligent conversation about your thoughts on a place. Some of my most interesting conversations in college were with foreign students and what they liked and disliked about my university/country, you closed-minded fuck.

pdts

[Amp]

I don't seem him doing anything wrong. He was having a private conversation with his friends when a perfect stranger butted in. IMHO she was the one being rude, not the OP.

[Cisco]

Wah wah wah, I'm a limey pussy. Wah wah, someone doesn't like me talking shit about a country I just arrived in and it ruined my entire night. Wah, she called me a cunt and it made me cry into me fish and chips. I wanted to keep arguing with her but my friends dragged me away because I'm obviously just as big of an idiot as she is. Wahhhh.

[Malacandra]

Wah wah wah, I'm a limey pussy.
Pillocking twit.

[put down the sabre]

Wah wah wah, I'm a limey pussy.


Reporting this post. Keep your racist abuse to yourself, dick.


Wah wah, someone doesn't like me talking shit about a country I just arrived in and it ruined my entire night. Wah, she called me a cunt and it made me cry into me fish and chips. I wanted to keep arguing with her but my friends dragged me away because I'm obviously just as big of an idiot as she is. Wahhhh.

You actually believe this shit, don't you? Oh and the 'fish and chips' crack? Hilarious! It's funny because 'limeys' like to eat fish and chips. Oh and Japs like to eat sushi, Chinks like chow mein and you-know-who like watermelons... is that your thought process?

My friends apologised for dragging me away, by the way. I just have a low tolerance for fools.

pdts

[Cisco]

Reporting this post. Keep your racist abuse to yourself, dick.
Sorry, I didn't know 'Englishman' was a race. Crybaby. Is this your MO? Come to places you're new at and cry, and then play the victim when you get called on being a whiner?

[OtakuLoki]

I see someone's trying to live up (Or is that down) to TLDR's example.

I'm with Amp - the OP is completely justified with being pissed at someone having a hissyfit over a private conversation. It doesn't matter if pdts has been here a minute, or a year.

[put down the sabre]

Sorry, I didn't know 'Englishman' was a race. Crybaby. Is this your MO? Come to places you're new at and cry, and then play the victim when you get called on being a whiner?

I'm not going to help you jerk off anymore, after this post. You are clearly rather literal-minded. Racism is here used in the broader sense, perhaps captured by "attacks based on someone's nationality or ethnicity". Examples of racist statements:

- All Americans are arrogant.
- Shut up, you Irish moron.
- You are a limey pussy.

And leaving aside the fact that 'English' is a relatively clear Ethnic group... I never said I was English, you ignorant fuck.

pdts

[Cisco]

I'm with Amp - the OP is completely justified with being pissed at someone having a hissyfit over a private conversation. It doesn't matter if pdts has been here a minute, or a year.
In my world, a bar conversation is not private, and you don't talk shit when you're the new kid. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

[ZipperJJ]

I was born and raised in America and the "flag fetish" and pledge of allegiance make me feel weird too.

[mswas]

(1) I live here.
(2) I was asked for my opinion.
(3) Fuck you.

There's a world of difference between visiting someone's home/state/country and mouthing off to people who don't want to hear it, and having a serious, intelligent conversation about your thoughts on a place. Some of my most interesting conversations in college were with foreign students and what they liked and disliked about my university/country, you closed-minded fuck.

pdts

Criticizing America is the most patriotic thing you can do. It's in the first commandment! You go ahead and criticize all you want!

[mswas]

You actually believe this shit, don't you? Oh and the 'fish and chips' crack? Hilarious! It's funny because 'limeys' like to eat fish and chips. Oh and Japs like to eat sushi, Chinks like chow mein and you-know-who like watermelons... is that your thought process?

I like fish n chips, sushi, chow mein and Watermelon. I guess that makes me a limeychinknipger.

I do have to agree with Cisco though. You're a wuss.

[Cisco]

To clarify:

OP comes in here and whines that he got treated exactly how I (and probably most of us) would expect to get treated if I was in a foreign country and started criticizing their government and/or culture in a public place. Sure, America is the big Red-White-and-Blue Meanie, but turn the situation around. Would you go have this conversation in France or Brazil or the UK, or anywhere else, and not expect the treatment the OP got?
I was born and raised in America and the "flag fetish" and pledge of allegiance make me feel weird too.
Me too, but that's not the point.

[Bryan Ekers]

Reporting this post. Keep your racist abuse to yourself, dick.
The lady in the bar was drunk. She's sober now. You're an idiot forever.

[put down the sabre]

I like fish n chips, sushi, chow mein and Watermelon. I guess that makes me a limeychinknipger.

I do have to agree with Cisco though. You're a wuss.

I like all those foods too, except perhaps watermelon.

Sigh, why am I a wuss? Because I don't like being called a 'limey pussy'? Would it make you a wuss to not like being called a 'Yank moron'? Would it make a Japanese a wuss to not like being called a 'Jap pussy'?

pdts

[put down the sabre]

The lady in the bar was drunk. She's sober now. You're an idiot forever.

You mangled the Churchill. The beauty of the Churchill quote is that he lets the second part hang. I suppose it takes a certain wit to pull off, though.

pdts

[HongKongFooey]

To clarify:

OP comes in here and whines that he got treated exactly how I (and probably most of us) would expect to get treated if I was in a foreign country and started criticizing their government and/or culture in a public place. Sure, America is the big Red-White-and-Blue Meanie, but turn the situation around. Would you go have this conversation in France or Brazil or the UK, or anywhere else, and not expect the treatment the OP got?
Me too, but that's not the point.Thin-skinned are we? Surely in America people are entitled to answer questions honestly. When I'm in America I don't volunteer my opinions on American politics, I don't care and it's none of my business, but if someone asked I would certainly give an honest answer. Quite frankly the OP didn't say anything all that bad anyhow.

[put down the sabre]

To clarify:

OP comes in here and whines that he got treated exactly how I (and probably most of us) would expect to get treated if I was in a foreign country and started criticizing their government and/or culture in a public place. Sure, America is the big Red-White-and-Blue Meanie, but turn the situation around. Would you go have this conversation in France or Brazil or the UK, or anywhere else, and not expect the treatment the OP got?
Me too, but that's not the point.

I know I said I wouldn't respond to you again, but I can't help it.

Please drop the victim mentality 'red white and blue meanie' stuff.

Imagine you're in London. It's your home, and has been for a year. Your British friends ask you what you think of the place. You respond honestly - some positives, some negatives. But mostly, you try to give an honest appraisal of your experiences. This is done at normal bar conversation level, which the people next to you would have to strain to hear in detail.

Would you really expect a British person to chime in and angrily rant about how you have no right to criticise the place because you have President Bush yadda yadda yadda? Do be honest.

pdts

[Cisco]

Imagine you're in London. It's your home, and has been for a year. Your British friends ask you what you think of the place. You respond honestly - some positives, some negatives.Stop right there. I would not respond with any negatives - not in public for sure, and probably not at all. I learned this lesson when I was very young and moved around a lot. As a "recent" (5 years) transplant to Arizona, this topic still comes up a lot, and sure there are things that annoy me about the place - pollution, traffic, awful summers, etc. - but my typical response is, "I wouldn't be here if I didn't love it." And deep down that's true and it's all that matters. But let's continue for for the sake of argument . . . But mostly, you try to give an honest appraisal of your experiences. This is done at normal bar conversation level, which the people next to you would have to strain to hear in detail.

Would you really expect a British person to chime in and angrily rant about how you have no right to criticise the place because you have President Bush yadda yadda yadda? Do be honest.
Yes, I really would.

[jjimm]

don't criticize a place you're visitingWhat a stupid thing to say.

You know, expatriates are occasionally allowed to express their opinion about where they are. Have you ever been an expat? Have you met American expats in the UK - or indeed anywhere else? I have. Believe me, a lot of them have a lot of reasons to harbour critical opinion, and most of them aren't afraid to express it - and that's fine.

Kneejerk hostility to mild criticism by someone who doesn't share your accent is something you share with the douchebag mentioned in the OP. Perhaps a childhood of mindless morning repetition of nationalistic platitudes has rotted your brains?

[put down the sabre]

Stop right there. I would not respond with any negatives - not in public for sure, and probably not at all. I learned this lesson when I was very young and moved around a lot. As a "recent" (5 years) transplant to Arizona, this topic still comes up a lot, and sure there are things that annoy me about the place - pollution, traffic, awful summers, etc. - but my typical response is, "I wouldn't be here if I didn't love it." And deep down that's true and it's all that matters. But let's continue for for the sake of argument . . .
Yes, I really would.

Well then you and I are very different. I believe in giving an honest answer to an honest question (and I don't 'love' the USA, I am here for other reasons).

I do believe you owe me an apology for calling me a 'limey pussy'.

pdts

[mswas]

Sigh, why am I a wuss? Because I don't like being called a 'limey pussy'? Would it make you a wuss to not like being called a 'Yank moron'? Would it make a Japanese a wuss to not like being called a 'Jap pussy'?

No you're a wuss because you let some drunk bitch ruin your night.

[put down the sabre]

No you're a wuss because you let some drunk bitch ruin your night.

That was hyperbole - I went on to have a good time. But it certainly cast a sour mood over the evening, and gave me some anger.

pdts

[mswas]

That was hyperbole - I went on to have a good time. But it certainly cast a sour mood over the evening, and gave me some anger.

Well, you didn't have to play with her. You could've mouthed off and shuffled on.

[put down the sabre]

Well, you didn't have to play with her. You could've mouthed off and shuffled on.

True enough. But this whole thing probably only lasted a minute or two (we downed our drinks to make a quick exit to somewhere more hospitable).

I was also annoyed because the drink was to celebrate with friends who are graduating tomorrow. What we wanted was some good conversation about the past year (hence the topic, in part), and I was very annoyed that one of my final nights with these guys was ruined by the bitch. It takes a better man than me to just ignore someone sat right next to one who jumps down one's throat, though.

pdts

[mswas]

True enough. But this whole thing probably only lasted a minute or two (we downed our drinks to make a quick exit to somewhere more hospitable).

I was also annoyed because the drink was to celebrate with friends who are graduating tomorrow. What we wanted was some good conversation about the past year (hence the topic, in part), and I was very annoyed that one of my final nights with these guys was ruined by the bitch. It takes a better man than me to just ignore someone sat right next to one who jumps down one's throat, though.

pdts

That's what I mean. You let a two minute blip in your night ruin it. You could've treated it like a commercial break with some really fucking annoying commercial, instead you let it ruin your night.

[essell]

Yes, I really would.
What a tiny hostile world you've lived in.

I would expect people in London, or elsewhere in the UK, would mind their own business like grown-ups.

Unless they were a drunk cunt looking for an argument. You get them everywhere.
Criticizing America is the most patriotic thing you can do. It's in the first commandment! You go ahead and criticize all you want!Cisco, I'd love to get your perspective on this.
As I understand it, critically analysing your country isn't a right, it's your responsibility.

I know the OP isn't native American but do you do this? Do you examine America but not tell anyone? Or maybe only express your opinion when you're at home?

The OP was asked a question, presumably their friends were interested in the answer, and was giving an honest response. Unless you're going to pretend America is perfect you've got to expect some negative feedback.

[Cisco]

What a stupid thing to say.

You know, expatriates are occasionally allowed to express their opinion about where they are. Have you ever been an expat? Have you met American expats in the UK - or indeed anywhere else? I have. Believe me, a lot of them have a lot of reasons to harbour critical opinion, and most of them aren't afraid to express it - and that's fine.

Kneejerk hostility to mild criticism by someone who doesn't share your accent is something you share with the douchebag mentioned in the OP. Perhaps a childhood of mindless morning repetition of nationalistic platitudes has rotted your brains?
In a post accusing me of prejudgment, you exhibit prejudgment towards me. It's like . . . art.

[put down the sabre]

In a post accusing me of prejudgment, you exhibit prejudgment towards me. It's like . . . art.

I don't think he's prejudging you... rather drawing some tentative conclusions on the basis of limited evidence.

Example: You've displayed kneejerk hostility to mild criticism in this thread. So jjimm concludes, reasonably, that you display kneejerk hostility to mild criticism.

The word might be ... judgement?

pdts

[Cisco]

What a tiny hostile world you've lived in.

I would expect people in London, or elsewhere in the UK, would mind their own business like grown-ups.

Unless they were a drunk cunt looking for an argument. You get them everywhere.
Uhhh, ummm, thanks for proving my point.
Cisco, I'd love to get your perspective on this.
As I understand it, critically analysing your country isn't a right, it's your responsibility.

I know the OP isn't native American but do you do this? Do you examine America but not tell anyone? Or maybe only express your opinion when you're at home?

The OP was asked a question, presumably their friends were interested in the answer, and was giving an honest response. Unless you're going to pretend America is perfect you've got to expect some negative feedback.
What do you want from me? I critically analyze my country to death. "Real Patriots Ask Questions" from The Demon Haunted World is pretty much my favorite chapter of any book, ever. You don't seem to understand what I'm saying here so I invite you - and jjimm - to re-read the thread before continuing to fart into it.

[put down the sabre]

That's what I mean. You let a two minute blip in your night ruin it. You could've treated it like a commercial break with some really fucking annoying commercial, instead you let it ruin your night.

I shouldn't keep saying that she 'ruined' it, that's hyperbole. But your point is well taken.

Truth is, I've found America to be incredibly open and welcoming, this just set a jarring note against that.

pdts

[put down the sabre]

Uhhh, ummm, thanks for proving my point.


Wait! Which is your point?

(1) The woman was right/justified to jump down my throat, because I shouldn't have been talking like that.

(2) Perhaps regrettably, people who are likely to jump down throats are likely to be found everywhere, thus it might be more prudent to keep one's opinions to oneself.

Earlier you seemed to be pushing the first, now you're retreating to the second... which is it?

pdts

[jjimm]

In a post accusing me of prejudgment, you exhibit prejudgment towards me. It's like . . . art.This would be a mavellously ironic parry, had I actually accused you of of prejudgement.

However, I didn't: I accused you of knee-jerk hostility. Not really a necessary accusation, I'll admit, as the evidence is in this thread in post #2 (and #5, and #8, etc.).

(Little hint for you too: the 'prejudgement' part of my post is hyperbolic overstatement for vaguely comedic effect.)

[Zoe]

You had the right to criticize America. The woman had the right to criticize your opinion. You had the right to be pissed at her response. It's hard to known how to balance things out when you want to be genuine and still have a good time. And then there are some people whose opinions I won't allow to take up any space in my head. That woman sounds like one of those people. I like those who can argue a point and still have a good nature about it.

[Cisco]

Wait! Which is your point?

(1) The woman was right/justified to jump down my throat, because I shouldn't have been talking like that.

(2) Perhaps regrettably, people who are likely to jump down throats are likely to be found everywhere, thus it might be more prudent to keep one's opinions to oneself.

Earlier you seemed to be pushing the first, now you're retreating to the second... which is it?

pdts
It's both. You're both dipshits, as I said in post number 5.

I wouldn't word #1 the same way but whatever.

[Cisco]

This would be a mavellously ironic parry, had I actually accused you of of prejudgement.

However, I didn't: I accused you of knee-jerk hostility.
Because they're two totally different beasts :rolleyes:.

[put down the sabre]

It's both. You're both dipshits, as I said in post number 5.

I wouldn't word #1 the same way but whatever.

Are you going to apologise for calling me a 'limey pussy', or do you stand by it?

pdts

[put down the sabre]

Because they're two totally different beasts :rolleyes:.

Uhm... yes they are.

Just because they're both negative doesn't mean they have much else in common.

Your sophomoric literal-mindedness seems to be biting you in the arse here.

pdts

[Cisco]

Are you going to apologise for calling me a 'limey pussy', or do you stand by it?

pdts
Stop acting like a pussy and maybe I'll reconsider thinking of you as one at a later date. If you're not a limey then I retract that statement, but if you'll tell me what you are I'd be glad to insult that country instead - if that's what you're looking for. I'm quite sure it's full of tossers.

[put down the sabre]

Stop acting like a pussy and maybe I'll reconsider thinking of you as one at a later date. If you're not a limey then I retract that statement, but if you'll tell me what you are I'd be glad to insult that country instead - if that's what you're looking for. I'm quite sure it's full of tossers.

You are quite the belligerent moron.

You and the woman I met tonight should hang out. I can't decide if you'd love each other (you could talk about how persecuted you are, maybe) or hate each other (thanks to constantly offending each other).

pdts

[Bryan Ekers]

You mangled the Churchill. The beauty of the Churchill quote is that he lets the second part hang. I suppose it takes a certain wit to pull off, though.

This is the sort of arrogant pedantry I will not put up with.


Idiot.

[Bryan Ekers]

I'm quite sure it's full of tossers.

Sheep-shaggers, too.

[put down the sabre]

This is the sort of arrogant pedantry I will not put up with.


Idiot.

up with which you will not put?

pdts

[jjimm]

If you're not a limey then I retract that statement, but if you'll tell me what you are I'd be glad to insult that country instead - if that's what you're looking for. I'm quite sure it's full of tossers.Seemingly, this is what causes the disproportionate response: you can't tell the difference between "not overtly positive observation" and "insult". It's odd.

BTW, you are correct, the UK is indeed full of tossers.

[LouisB]

In my world, a bar conversation is not private, and you don't talk shit when you're the new kid. Different strokes for different folks and all that.
I've had many a private conversation in bars; I've even negotiated a couple of jobs in bars, not to mention some buying and selling deals. But they were nice, quiet places where rude behavior wasn't the norm.

As for the OP, I would have been pissed off just at the words "Ekscuuuuussssse Meeee," which is how they are generally pronounced by self righteous smart asses.

[Will Repair]

I would not respond with any negatives - not in public for sure...

And the winner is ...

[Carson O'Genic]

Cry me a fucking river. Maybe she was drunk and disorderly but she had a point regarding politeness - don't criticize a place you're visiting. Be it someone's home, another state, or another country, it's rude.

People who interrupt conversations make no points regarding politeness.

[Contrapuntal]

No you're a wuss because you let some drunk bitch ruin your night.Yeah. A discussion about politics in a bar turned out badly. Who the fuck saw that coming?

[yojimbo]

A racist statement???
- Shut up, you Irish moron.

I know lots of Irish morons.

The OP was valid IMO. Cisco's being a stupid cunt.

That said put down the sabre, you need to grow a few more layers of skin.

[WF Tomba]

Stop right there. I would not respond with any negatives - not in public for sure, and probably not at all. I learned this lesson when I was very young and moved around a lot. As a "recent" (5 years) transplant to Arizona, this topic still comes up a lot, and sure there are things that annoy me about the place - pollution, traffic, awful summers, etc. - but my typical response is, "I wouldn't be here if I didn't love it."
You've been there for five years and you're afraid to criticize Arizona? You're the wuss here. I don't know why you think everyone in the entire fucking world is as overly sensitive to criticism as you seem to be.

For the record, I have no more problem with foreigners criticizing America than I have with Americans doing so. Obviously, people's opinions carry more weight when they have longer experience, but I don't think there's anything rude about having a polite conversation with friends.

[Stealth Potato]

Um, yeah. I'm kinda stunned by this "don't criticize this country in public" attitude. Seriously, what the fuck?

[yojimbo]

Don't forget that in this case the criticism was Was talking about how the Pledge of Allegiance and flag-fetish make me vaguely uncomfortable That's not exactly going very far now is it? Anybody getting offended by that is a chest thumping idiot.

[chowder]

What I can't understand is why the OP didn't just tell the woman to mind her own business and stay out of what was a private conversation.

Which is exactly what I'd have done

[WF Tomba]

What I can't understand is why the OP didn't just tell the woman to mind her own business and stay out of what was a private conversation.

Which is exactly what I'd have done
Agreed. It was definitely not worth it to get into an argument.

[put down the sabre]

What I can't understand is why the OP didn't just tell the woman to mind her own business and stay out of what was a private conversation.

Which is exactly what I'd have done

That is what I should have done.

But I just wasn't thinking straight, for 2 reasons I guess:

(1) I get very competitive in verbal argument, it's a personality flaw, but it helps in my chosen discipline.

(2) There was something in her tone or her wording which seemed to communicate a certain 'how dare the victims of a monarchy criticise us, we invented freedom you know' pride with an implication that I didn't have the right to be in the US, and should leave rather than complain. I am a lawful resident of the United States, and it was very odd to hear (or perhaps imagine) that implication about one's home.

pdts

[catsix]

put down the sabre said:
Sigh, why am I a wuss? Because I don't like being called a 'limey pussy'? Would it make you a wuss to not like being called a 'Yank moron'?

People from England refer to us as seppos. As in septic tanks.

Calling you a limey pussy is pretty mild by comparison.

LouisB said:
I've had many a private conversation in bars; I've even negotiated a couple of jobs in bars, not to mention some buying and selling deals. But they were nice, quiet places where rude behavior wasn't the norm.

So they probably weren't college bars then?

yojimbo said:
That's not exactly going very far now is it? Anybody getting offended by that is a chest thumping idiot.

What if I went to Canada and complained about the maple leaf flag being all over the place? Would they be justified in telling me to fuck off about how they demonstrate pride in their country? I think you kind of have to expect when you go to another country that you're going to see people flying their own flag. I really don't encounter the Pledge of Allegiance much. It's not like people are out there reciting it like an oath in the street every morning, and they're certainly not trying to force sabre to join in.

[yojimbo]

What if I went to Canada and complained about the maple leaf flag being all over the place? Would they be justified in telling me to fuck off about how they demonstrate pride in their country? Would who be justified? A stranger butting in on a conversation you where having with your friends about how you find cultural differences in displays of patriotism somewhat strange? No they wouldn't be justified. They'd be idiots.

The American* love of the flag and the Pledge are both strange to my Irish experience. I can totally see why a Brit would react the same way. The OP said it made him "vaguely uncomfortable" the way he portrayed it was more of a observation than a complaint or insult.


*Yeah I know I'm generalising but I honestly can't think of a western nation that equals American in its in your face celebration of pride in your country.

[catsix]

yojimbo said:

*Yeah I know I'm generalising but I honestly can't think of a western nation that equals American in its in your face celebration of pride in your country.

I think you watch too much television.

There are people who are like that all the time, but y'know, I never see them except on television. We have the July 4th thing, and the Olympics 'Go USA', but I just don't see people walking around every day saying the PoA and waving flags.

There is a tendency to write tacky country songs about it, which nobody but country music fans care about. Other than that the only thing I can think of is that Americans have a tendency to be of the mind that 'I can make fun of my sister, but you can't.' and band together when the criticism comes from abroad.

I just doubt it's really that much different anywhere else.

[yojimbo]

I just doubt it's really that much different anywhere else.It is different. I don't know if you've traveled much in Europe but I've been to the States and have spend a few months there on one occasion. It's different. Not saying worse or anything really negative just different.

[smiling bandit]

From my experience, Germans youth tend to be ill-mannered assholes. Regardless, they never seemed to be particularly embarassed about shoving their political opinions (which were universally bigoted, childish, ignorant, and generally moronic when not outright insane) in my face when I was a guest in their country. Apparently this was an attempt to claim the status of "political resister" while being a white-bread wanna-be. I was not impressed.

And yes, this has nothing to do with this thread. I just felt like making wild and gratuitous accusations.

[FarmerChick]

Stop right there. I would not respond with any negatives - not in public for sure, and probably not at all. I learned this lesson when I was very young and moved around a lot. As a "recent" (5 years) transplant to Arizona, this topic still comes up a lot, and sure there are things that annoy me about the place - pollution, traffic, awful summers, etc. - but my typical response is, "I wouldn't be here if I didn't love it." And deep down that's true and it's all that matters. But let's continue for for the sake of argument . . .
Yes, I really would.

You really are a thin skinned moron. What the hell is wrong with answering a simple question? Are you Americans really so insecure that the slightest negative comment about your "great" country sends you off the deep end?

I think you watch too much television.

There are people who are like that all the time, but y'know, I never see them except on television. We have the July 4th thing, and the Olympics 'Go USA', but I just don't see people walking around every day saying the PoA and waving flags.

There is a tendency to write tacky country songs about it, which nobody but country music fans care about. Other than that the only thing I can think of is that Americans have a tendency to be of the mind that 'I can make fun of my sister, but you can't.' and band together when the criticism comes from abroad.

I just doubt it's really that much different anywhere else.

Uhh, no, my experience with Americans shows me otherwise. I am all for national pride, but you guys take it to the extreme, and most of you don't even see it. I have many American friends, and I come go down there usually once or twice a year. I have a good time with 98% of you crazy people, but holy cow, enough with the red, white and fucking blue already.

[chowder]

[QUOTE=catsix]People from England refer to us as seppos. As in septic tanks.

We do?

I've heard the expression but to be honest with you I've not heard it that often.

Dozy yanks, yes :p

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

I've never heard any Brit use "seppo", ever. I thought that was an Australian thing. Besides, it's not like the whole of the UK speaks in rhyming slang, anyway. Any use of "seppo" would be confined to some areas of London.

[yojimbo]

I get the impression that it's use on this board is disproportionate to reality.

[Bryan Ekers]

What if I went to Canada and complained about the maple leaf flag being all over the place?
Well, my first response would be an incredulous "It is?" The "fuck off" would be held in reserve for meatier complaints.

[Odesio]

I have to admit that whenever I hear that Americans have a fetish for the American flat I think to myself, "what fetish?" I find it rather cute that so many Europeans are uncomfortable with all the flag waving that goes on in the United States. I don't really see the American flag everywhere I go here in the United States. Driving around in Little Rock most of the places with flags are government buildings -- post office, schools, etc. -- a few corporate offices and car dealerships. It wasn't that much different in Dallas either.

Now of course in recent years there have been a bit more flags flying on automobiles and little magnets resembling the flag but those aren't as ubiquitous as they once were. I really don't understand why flying flags would bother people.

Marc

[Loach]

I think you watch too much television.

There are people who are like that all the time, but y'know, I never see them except on television. We have the July 4th thing, and the Olympics 'Go USA', but I just don't see people walking around every day saying the PoA and waving flags.

There is a tendency to write tacky country songs about it, which nobody but country music fans care about. Other than that the only thing I can think of is that Americans have a tendency to be of the mind that 'I can make fun of my sister, but you can't.' and band together when the criticism comes from abroad.

I just doubt it's really that much different anywhere else.


I don't do this much but I have to agree with you. Since I left high school over twenty years ago the only times I have run into the pledge is at very specific functions. For instance it is tradition to open our PBA meetings with it (why, I have no idea). In fact I think that is the only place I have run into it in the last twenty years. Which includes all my time in the military. I don't see where the pledge would come up enough to make an outsider uncomfortable.

[Loach]

Well, my first response would be an incredulous "It is?" The "fuck off" would be held in reserve for meatier complaints.

I am reminded of the Norm Macdonald routine when he was talking about flag burning. He mentions how the US flag is full of symbolism and pride with the stars representing the 50 states, the stripes representing the thirteen colonies, the red for the blood shed.... "And in Canada we have a leaf. It practically begs to be burned."

[hajario]

He was asked, by his friends, specifically what he liked and disliked during his year here. He answered honestly. How is this wrong?

[Omegaman]

Well I for one would like to offer you an apology that you were treated rudely. Having been in many bars and a member of many altercations in such establishments we both know every coin has two sides. Please don't let that statement marginalize my apology in any way. If I stood before you I would speak the exact words here.

In addition, if I didn't know you better, and well, lets be honest about this too, I might think there is a remote possibility, however slight, that might be attempting to start a little fire and from the posts prior to mine you might very well be placing your marshmallows on a stick as we speak, as in fact my limited conversations in the past have indicated to me that you might a., be a little quick on the draw or b., might be having me on a bit, to use a phrase you might be more familiar with. As an American I stand tall and proud of my country and if I offered you my hand in greeting, or to indicate that we might have gotten off on the wrong foot, I would expect you to do the same coming from a country known for their gentleman, and chivalrous ways. I too have a certain dignity and bearing when I meet someone in person as I am a stout man, with very rugged features and carry my self in a no nonsense way. If you are the same kind of man then lets pretend before you I stand, shall we?

[threemae]

He was asked, by his friends, specifically what he liked and disliked during his year here. He answered honestly. How is this wrong?

Agreed. Interrupting the conversations of strangers should only be done in very rare circumstances and almost never to antagonize either member of the conversing group. To say, "oh, hey, I'm from the UK too," or, "I really enjoyed my vacation there last summer," might be acceptable, but the woman in the OP was ill-behaved.

[Cisco]

You've been there for five years and you're afraid to criticize Arizona? You're the wuss here.
Where did you get the mistaken impression that I am afraid? It's a matter of polite vs. impolite. Ninety nine times out of a hundred, when someone asks you what you think of their native land, they're fishing for compliments.

*Yeah I know I'm generalising but I honestly can't think of a western nation that equals American in its in your face celebration of pride in your country.Never been to Mexico then, huh?

[Kalhoun]

I was born and raised in America and the "flag fetish" and pledge of allegiance make me feel weird too.
Ditto. It's a regular argument between me and the brother-in-law. He's convinced I'm a communist because I don't get all weepy when I look at a flag. A FUCKING FLAG! I'm far more bothered by the way some people have inflated the importance of the symbol while keeping their eyes closed to what the government has, from time to time, done to the meaning behind the symbol.

[Kalhoun]

I was born and raised in America and the "flag fetish" and pledge of allegiance make me feel weird too.
Ditto. It's a regular argument between me and the brother-in-law. He's convinced I'm a communist because I don't get all weepy when I look at a flag. A FUCKING FLAG! I'm far more bothered by the way some people have inflated the importance of the symbol while keeping their eyes closed to what the government has, from time to time, done to the meaning behind the symbol.

He also feels that the pledge should only be spoken in English. :rolleyes: Fuckin' moron.

[Carol Stream]

Uhh, no, my experience with Americans shows me otherwise. I am all for national pride, but you guys take it to the extreme, and most of you don't even see it. I have many American friends, and I come go down there usually once or twice a year. I have a good time with 98% of you crazy people, but holy cow, enough with the red, white and fucking blue already.

Care to give a couple of examples of what you're talking about? As others have said, I have lived in the Chicago area for all of my 40-odd years, and I have never experienced anything of the sort. Nor have I had occasion to say the Pledge since graduating highschool. :dubious:

[villa]

Cry me a fucking river. Maybe she was drunk and disorderly but she had a point regarding politeness - don't criticize a place you're visiting. Be it someone's home, another state, or another country, it's rude.

Out of interest, when am I allowed to say anything negative about the United States? After 14 years or so here, paying taxes, have I earned that right? I love living here, and I love most things about this country, but the suggestion I cannot mention in response to a direct question that there might be things about Blighty I prefer is utterly ridiculous.

You know what - we have better sports. I prefer the UK banking system. Even after all this time your bacon still sucks donkey balls. I used to think the BBC was better than anything over here, but that has changed pretty much.

But overall, I am happy to be here. I made that choice - so has the OP. That doesn't mean we think everything is perfect though.

I know someone who shares the same attitude as you and the crazy drunk woman, though. Oddly enough, when I knew him in England, he had no problems telling all of us how disastrous the NHS was, and how the English system, or what he called "socialism" was doomed to failure. And even more oddly, none of us gave a flying fuck about it. That was his opinion. Had the OP been sitting there loudly proclaiming in a bar about how everything was better in the UK, and how the US sucked, then I would probably have called him on it. But that doesn't seem to be what happened.

[villa]

People from England refer to us as seppos. As in septic tanks.


Australians, I think.

[InLucemEdita]

Based on her performance here, I do not trust the OP's version of events.

[Švejk]

Where did you get the mistaken impression that I am afraid? It's a matter of polite vs. impolite. Ninety nine times out of a hundred, when someone asks you what you think of their native land, they're fishing for compliments.

Remember that the OP was not asked for his opinion by some total stranger, but by his friends. Neglecting to mention whichever negative judgments you might hold is not polite, it is shallow and insincere. In my experience, some of the most interesting things I have learned about my country I learned in conversations with foreigners making honest observations about the crazy way we run this place.

You had the right to criticize America. The woman had the right to criticize your opinion. You had the right to be pissed at her response. It's hard to known how to balance things out when you want to be genuine and still have a good time. And then there are some people whose opinions I won't allow to take up any space in my head. That woman sounds like one of those people. I like those who can argue a point and still have a good nature about it.

Of course, if someone criticizes your country unfairly, anyone has the right to state their disagreement and criticize the criticism. This, however, is not what happened; instead, the woman (incorrectly, in my view) questioned the OP's position to offer any such criticism to begin with. Logically, this is not criticizing the content of the opinion in any substantive way, it does not relate in any way to whether or not what the OP was saying is true or not.

[Fuji]

I have to admit that whenever I hear that Americans have a fetish for the American flat I think to myself, "what fetish?" I find it rather cute that so many Europeans are uncomfortable with all the flag waving that goes on in the United States. I don't really see the American flag everywhere I go here in the United States. Driving around in Little Rock most of the places with flags are government buildings -- post office, schools, etc. -- a few corporate offices and car dealerships. It wasn't that much different in Dallas either.

Now of course in recent years there have been a bit more flags flying on automobiles and little magnets resembling the flag but those aren't as ubiquitous as they once were. I really don't understand why flying flags would bother people.

Marc

(bolding mine)

But see, the thing is - the use of flags in front of those buildings is, in and of itself, rather extraordinary when compared to the rest of the industrialized world (I'm thinking mainly of Europe here). I've lived in Ireland 2 1/2 years, and the orange, white and green is just not something I see on a daily basis. About the only time I encounter it is when Ireland is playing England or France in rugby, or in front of the occasional B&B who uses it to appeal, ironically enough, to Americans.

Can't recall seeing the flags of Germany, Belgium, or the Netherlands much on display, either, during my visits there.

And unlike in the U.S., I don't think I've ever seen even a single Irish flag in front of anyone's private residence here. Very few bumper stickers, either, but that's a different thread...

[Omegaman]

Australians, I think.

I love them too. Rough and tumble, they are. As a matter of fact I can't think of any countrys I dislike. You know who is really cool, the Maori, from New Zealand. I'd love to meet one of them, just an average Joe. I'll bet we would get along famously. I got to get out more. :)

[yojimbo]

In fairness the Tri-colour flies on most government buildings.

Here's the GPO. http://www.lookaroundireland.com/counties/dublin/flat/GPO.jpg

It is not universal though as here's the custom house with a flag pole but no flag. http://www.yellowbrickroad.net.au/images/customs-house-dublin1.jpg

I would expect flags on government buildings. I don't think that is what the OP is referencing though.

[spinky]

I'm just here to express my American opinion that the American in the bar was a rude bitch, and the idea that you shouldn't, when asked, politely express your thoughts about a country you're visiting is stupid. It's the type of mentality that makes the rest of the world justifiably think of you as a nationalistic dickhead who thinks his country can do no wrong.

Unfortunately, small-minded idiots are incapable of complex thoughts like loving your country while acknowledging that it might have some faults.

[Carol Stream]

(bolding mine)

But see, the thing is - the use of flags in front of those buildings is, in and of itself, rather extraordinary when compared to the rest of the industrialized world (I'm thinking mainly of Europe here). I've lived in Ireland 2 1/2 years, and the orange, white and green is just not something I see on a daily basis. About the only time I encounter it is when Ireland is playing England or France in rugby, or in front of the occasional B&B who uses it to appeal, ironically enough, to Americans.



Or at the Post Office, same as in the US. http://www.fotosearch.com/photos-images/irish-flag.html

[panache45]

Criticizing America is the most patriotic thing you can do. It's in the first commandment!
I love this. "Thou shalt criticize America." :D

[TommyTutone]

Imagine you're in London. It's your home, and has been for a year. Your British friends ask you what you think of the place. You respond honestly - some positives, some negatives. But mostly, you try to give an honest appraisal of your experiences. This is done at normal bar conversation level, which the people next to you would have to strain to hear in detail.

Would you really expect a British person to chime in and angrily rant about how you have no right to criticise the place because you have President Bush yadda yadda yadda? Do be honest.

pdts

No. I would expect to get shivved by a hooligan or a chav on my way out.

[Odesio]

(bolding mine)

But see, the thing is - the use of flags in front of those buildings is, in and of itself, rather extraordinary when compared to the rest of the industrialized world (I'm thinking mainly of Europe here).


When I lived in Munich there was only one building near where I lived that flew the West German flag. It's been so long that I cannot remember what that building was.

I honestly don't understand what Europeans find so unnerving or uncomfortable about the ubiquitous appearance of our flag within our borders. I understand that our flag is on display more often that most Europeans are used to but, save for 4th of July celebrations, they're not really in your face all the time. I can see why they might find it unusual but to be uncomfortable with it, really? Do Europeans attribute a different meaning to the presence of flags than Americans do?

As to the OP and the Pledge of Allegiance, I don't believe I've even had the opportunity to say it since third grade. When I went to schools on military bases we said the pledge every morning before class started but once I went to schools off base it never happened. Then again, when I started going to movie theaters off base I was surprised that the Star Spangled Banner didn't play before each movie. I remember thinking how odd it was not to stand before the picture started.



And unlike in the U.S., I don't think I've ever seen even a single Irish flag in front of anyone's private residence here. Very few bumper stickers, either, but that's a different thread...


It's a pretty rare thing to see one flying at a private residence here in the states.

Marc

[Rilchiam]

I honestly don't understand what Europeans find so unnerving or uncomfortable about the ubiquitous appearance of our flag within our borders.

Europeans are skeeved out by a lot of things Americans do. Dating, for instance. I started a thread a year or so ago, asking what Europeans do if they don't date. One guy said he couldn't imagine a dinner date, sitting across from someone while they eat. I don't know why that would be odd and scary, but to him it was.

[yojimbo]

Europeans are skeeved out by a lot of things Americans do. Dating, for instance. I started a thread a year or so ago, asking what Europeans do if they don't date. One guy said he couldn't imagine a dinner date, sitting across from someone while they eat. I don't know why that would be odd and scary, but to him it was.W.T.F! That guy is weird. The dating scene is probably different in some ways depending where you are, although the date I went on with in Vermont with a girl I met in a bar the night before felt exactly like all the dates I've gone on in Ireland.

[put down the sabre]

<snip>

As to the OP and the Pledge of Allegiance, I don't believe I've even had the opportunity to say it since third grade. <snip>


Oh as I mentioned at the start, different strokes for different folks. I don't have a problem with the pledge, and I've only encountered it once, at a political rally. What I was telling my friends was that 10s of thousands of people standing and reciting a chant to the nation in unison was somewhat unnerving for me.

You have to realise that I come from a country where almost noone knows the national anthem, and very few know even the first verse. It was just culture shock, I suppose.


It's a pretty rare thing to see one flying at a private residence here in the states.
Marc

This is false, in my experience, though I am in the South. Especially when you get outside of town around here, a very large proportion of houses has a US flag outside.
Pick a direction and drive from where I am now, I'd be surprised if I didn't see at least one or two in the first minute of driving.

pdts

[elbows]

She thought she was delivering a witty and well placed zinger.

Blame the demon alcohol.

Lot's of people, after a few beverages, think they are the very height of clever. They never tire of forcing their way into conversations they have no place in. Of course, they are really being rude and obnoxious, just like this woman was.

Usually it's easy to forgive in others, especially when you may have misspoken yourself, in your past, while well lubricated.

[Loach]

When I lived in Munich there was only one building near where I lived that flew the West German flag. It's been so long that I cannot remember what that building was.


Funny, in my two years living in Germany I saw plenty of flags and banners. Although probably more city and state banners hanging from the light fixtures downtown than federal flags. We used to steal them for souveneirs. I still have a giant Bavarian one around here somewhere.

It's a pretty rare thing to see one flying at a private residence here in the states.

I don't know about that. I've seen quite a few Irish flags flying at private residences. I guess it depends on what part of America you are from.

[Loach]

She thought she was delivering a witty and well placed zinger.

Blame the demon alcohol.

Lot's of people, after a few beverages, think they are the very height of clever. They never tire of forcing their way into conversations they have no place in. Of course, they are really being rude and obnoxious, just like this woman was.

Usually it's easy to forgive in others, especially when you may have misspoken yourself, in your past, while well lubricated.

It's just culture shock for the OP. There are no drunk and obnoxious people in English pubs.

[put down the sabre]

It's just culture shock for the OP. There are no drunk and obnoxious people in English pubs.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not here - but if the situation was reversed, and I was the Brit asking my American friend for his thoughts on the UK, and a rude woman interrupted and had a go at him, I'd be similarly critical.

pdts

[put down the sabre]

Based on her performance here, I do not trust the OP's version of events.

That's fine, noone asked you to. I'm intrigued though - why not? Because I'm angry about it? I've not changed my story or anything like that, and it's hardly outlandish.

pdts

[HMS Irruncible]

People from England refer to us as seppos. As in septic tanks.
Actually it's Australians who demonstrate their prison-colony origins through the use of that term.

[Chimera]

Probably the same bitch I met on a bus in Manchester (UK) back in '86.

We flew into Manchester because it was cheaper and were headed for the train station to get to London. On the bus, this loud mouthed young woman was blathering on about all the people who come to "this country" (meaning America) and badmouth it. She thought they should all shut up and go home.

I was sitting there laughing my ass off, because she wasn't IN "this country", she was in Britain, and she was pulling the typical Loud Ugly American Tourist routine.


That being said, there are a whole lot of places in this world where, when they ask you what you think of the place, you'd damn well better not say a bad word.

But this ain't one of them.

[put down the sabre]

That being said, there are a whole lot of places in this world where, when they ask you what you think of the place, you'd damn well better not say a bad word.

But this ain't one of them.

Exactly - were I in Moscow, or Seoul even, I would keep my mouth shut. Not out of a conviction that I have no right to my opinion, but out of worry that I'd get beaten to a bloody pulp. But then I doubt I would be seriously asked for my opinion in semi-public in either of those places.

I thought America was better than that. And for the most part, it is; the bitch from last night and Cisco on here show that one shouldn't assume too much civilisation, though.

pdts

[Carol Stream]

This is false, in my experience, though I am in the South. Especially when you get outside of town around here, a very large proportion of houses has a US flag outside.
Pick a direction and drive from where I am now, I'd be surprised if I didn't see at least one or two in the first minute of driving.

pdts

And there's been conflicting reports in this thread regarding Dallas, Little Rock, and Chicago that state otherwise. Why should anyone believe you?

[put down the sabre]

And there's been conflicting reports in this thread regarding Dallas, Little Rock, and Chicago that state otherwise. Why should anyone believe you?

Good question, let me have a go:

(1) The US is a large and diverse country.
(2) Unless I'm wrong, the three places you mention are relatively large.
(3) I am in a rural area (or near one).

Thus:
(A) It is not improbable that things may be different where I am from those places. Testimony about them may be compatible with differing testimony about here.

(4) We should exercise, ceteris paribus, a principle of charity when evaluating the testimony of others.
(5) I have not been dishonest on this board.

Thus:
(B) Assuming that not much is at stake, you should prima facie believe what I have to say, albeit not put too much faith in it.

And from (A) and (B):
You should prima facie believe what I have to say. In particular, nothing else said here appears to contradict it.

That's why.

pdts

[villa]

And there's been conflicting reports in this thread regarding Dallas, Little Rock, and Chicago that state otherwise. Why should anyone believe you?

I have to say, I am in a very liberal part of a pretty liberal town that makes up part of a ridiculously liberal urban area, and I can count 4 US flags on my block. One of them is nicely matched with an "Impeach then both" placard. There were a lot more on display when I lived in Nashville.

The only reason there are not 5 is that I haven't had a chance to put my flagstaff up. And mine is a US flag, though not the current US flag.

[Really Not All That Bright]

And there's been conflicting reports in this thread regarding Dallas, Little Rock, and Chicago that state otherwise. Why should anyone believe you?
Probably because we've got... eyes. There are three car dealerships across the street. They've all got flags. There's a subdivision next to my apartment complex, and I'd guess 1 in 5 houses has a flag hanging off the front. There's a fat guy downstairs whose pickup truck has a flag sticker that covers the entire rear window.

Incidentally, Cisco, when did your brain start leaking out of your ears? I didn't think you could possibly be serious when I read your first post.

[Rilchiam]

mine is a US flag, though not the current US flag.

Do tell. Is it a pre-Alaska-and-Hawai'i flag? A repro of the original flag -- I think you could buy those for the Bicentennial. Or do you know something we don't yet?

[villa]

It is (I believe) the original one - obviously a reproduction. I got it for giving money to Colonial Williamsburg.

13 stripes, and the Union Flag in the corner instead of the stars. I have just found out it is called the Grand Union Flag...

Here it is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Union_Flag)

I always thought it was kind of appropriate for someone in my situation, as an Anglo-Scot in the states.

[Omegaman]

Works for me. Sounds like we got off on the wrong foot.

[villa]

We did? Why? When? Where?

I am a little lost here...

[Green Bean]

And there's been conflicting reports in this thread regarding Dallas, Little Rock, and Chicago that state otherwise. Why should anyone believe you?
The simple fact is that we're so used to them, we don't see them anymore.

Recently, an English friend pointed out the American tendency to flag-ify. I told him that I didn't think that there were that many flags around. Shortly thereafter, my son learned about flags in kindergarten, and took it upon himself to point out every single flag we encountered.

They're EVERYWHERE!

Please note: I do not live in a rural area, or the South, or an area with a big military influence. In fact, this area is the polar opposite of a place where you'd expect to see the flags a'wavin'.

[Omegaman]

We did? Why? When? Where?

I am a little lost here...

You goofball :rolleyes: . I'm talking to the OP.

[Odesio]

This is false, in my experience, though I am in the South. Especially when you get outside of town around here, a very large proportion of houses has a US flag outside.


It isn't false in my experience. I've lived in Texas, Colorado, California, Arkansas, Virginia, and I've traveled to all of the south western states, and most of the southern states and seeing an American flag sitting on the outside of a place of residence is not a common occurrence. Even outside the city I'm more likely to see a Confederate flag than I am an American flag and the Confederate flag ain't exactly super common.


What exactly is a large proportion of houses with U.S. flags? 1/5th? 1/10th?

Marc

[Odesio]

I have a Gadsen flag hanging in my office.

Marc

[villa]

You goofball :rolleyes: . I'm talking to the OP.

Well color me relieved... :D

[Daffyd]

Hey, I had a flag up on my house in the SF Bay area! Then again, it was a mishmash of the Gay flag and Old Glory... It made me happy, and I'm sure pissed off the Republican Right... So it did its job...

To the OP - the woman was a fucking bitch - you have every right to tell the truth about what you thought...

Here in Canada, I've actually had someone start screaming in the middle of a College class to "Shut up you fucking American!".

I'm in school here, and a group I was in was doing a very light, comedic presentation, and as one of the jokes, I made a comment about people saying "aboot" instead of "about"... And that was when a student sitting in the class started screaming at me.

Most of the people around me were horrified at the way the idiot was behaving... (her - not me!)... I was only allowed a pass when the other students in my group started yelling back that I was Canadian too... (Dual citizenship saved the day...)

I figured after a couple of years here, I would be allowed to make a joke, but guess I was wrong... So Canadians have their sore points too.

Oh, and maybe in Quebec there aren't many Canadian flags, but here in Toronto they're everywhere...

[Really Not All That Bright]

What exactly is a large proportion of houses with U.S. flags? 1/5th? 1/10th?
Probably 1/10th... and that's a lot.

[E-Sabbath]

I see a lot of irish flags, all over the place.

... kinda weird, cause I'm in America.

[InLucemEdita]

That's fine, noone asked you to. I'm intrigued though - why not? Because I'm angry about it? I've not changed my story or anything like that, and it's hardly outlandish.

Just doesn't ring true. For several reasons.

You were coolly dispatching your opponent with your rapier wit, yet your friend "dragged you away".

Perhaps you were a bit more aggressive than you would like to have us imagine.

You weren't saying anything insulting just "different strokes", right...yet you refer to a "flag-fetish" in your OP. Perhaps you were a bit more loud and offensive in your discussion of things wrong with America than you would like to admit.

You hopped on "limey wuss" as "racist abuse", in the pit, mind you...I think your ability to characterize conversations may be similarly off kilter.

Your own admissions of "low tolerance" and "competitive in conversation" make me think that you want to WIN this battle after the fact much more than you want to report it accurately.

So, like I said, I don't trust your report.

I'd like to hear how the not-so-drunk bar patron would describe the exchange.
I suspect there was plenty of assholery to go around.

You have absolutely no reason to give a shit what I think, however.
Proceed.

[put down the sabre]

You seem to have misunderstood me in several places.

Just doesn't ring true. For several reasons.

You were coolly dispatching your opponent with your rapier wit, yet your friend "dragged you away".


Not quite - I was being sarcastic, and I was winning, but we were both getting quite heated. I certainly wasn't cool or rapier-like. As I said, she got me angry.

About being dragged away, what happened is this:
- we argued
- silence ensued, me and my friends drunk up and went to leave
- as we got up to leave, I went in to deliver the rather crappy Iraq line
- my friend pulled me away, telling me to let it go



Perhaps you were a bit more aggressive than you would like to have us imagine.


I really don't think so.


You weren't saying anything insulting just "different strokes", right...yet you refer to a "flag-fetish" in your OP. Perhaps you were a bit more loud and offensive in your discussion of things wrong with America than you would like to admit.


I don't see how this follows. "America has to me what seems like a fetish for the flag", said quietly. Hardly loud and offensive.


You hopped on "limey wuss" as "racist abuse", in the pit, mind you...I think your ability to characterize conversations may be similarly off kilter.


I think it was 'limey pussy', actually. And I think that IS racist - compare with 'Jap pussy'.


Your own admissions of "low tolerance" and "competitive in conversation" make me think that you want to WIN this battle after the fact much more than you want to report it accurately.

So, like I said, I don't trust your report.


I see where you're coming from, but I'm confident enough that I was totally in the right that I don't need to embellish it. It's rare, I think, to have things gone so entirely one-way.


I'd like to hear how the not-so-drunk bar patron would describe the exchange.
I suspect there was plenty of assholery to go around.

You have absolutely no reason to give a shit what I think, however.
Proceed.

I would like to hear it too, to be honest, but I'm 90% sure she was embarrassed about it the next day. I certainly would be if I'd behaved like she did - just like I'm embarrassed that I had to go in for one final remark rather than just move to another bar.

pdts

[Rubystreak]

You weren't saying anything insulting just "different strokes", right...yet you refer to a "flag-fetish" in your OP. Perhaps you were a bit more loud and offensive in your discussion of things wrong with America than you would like to admit.

Does it make a difference? How drunk would you have to be to involve yourself in a stranger's private conversation? It seems pretty out of line no matter what the OP was saying. Unless she was being really disruptive or threatening someone, I can't imagine butting in like that, even if the OP was being offensively anti-American. I'm hardly a shrinking violet or afraid to get into it with someone; I do however think that eavesdropping and then acting on the overhead conversation of strangers automatically puts you in the wrong, barring egregiously extenuating circumstances. Do people who aren't drunk and/or assholes really do this, and feel justified?

[InLucemEdita]

Unless she was being really disruptive or threatening someone, I can't imagine butting in like that, even if the OP was being offensively anti-American.

Exactly.

Do people who aren't drunk and/or assholes really do this, and feel justified?

Exactly again. The OP states that the other patron "wasn't obviously very drunk".
So why did she do it?

She's just a crazed jingoistic, flag-waving, American bitch who goes around bars listening in on conversations for foreign accents to pounce on...or...maybe it didn't quite go down like it has been presented.

Doesn't add up.

[put down the sabre]

Exactly.



Exactly again. The OP states that the other patron "wasn't obviously very drunk".
So why did she do it?

She's just a crazed jingoistic, flag-waving, American bitch who goes around bars listening in on conversations for foreign accents to pounce on...or...maybe it didn't quite go down like it has been presented.

Doesn't add up.

You sound like a creationist or something, "it's against logic!". Nice way to selectively quote me though ... I said in my OP that she had "had a few", but "wasn't obviously very drunk".

ie she was: 'loud+chatty+ argumentative drunk' (had a few), not 'slurred speech+can't walk straight drunk' (obviously very drunk).

pdts

[InLucemEdita]

You sound like a creationist or something, "it's against logic!". Nice way to selectively quote me though ... I said in my OP that she had "had a few", but "wasn't obviously very drunk".

ie she was: 'loud+chatty+ argumentative drunk' (had a few), not 'slurred speech+can't walk straight drunk' (obviously very drunk).

O.K.
Sorry.
You win.
I'm convinced.
Congratulations.

[put down the sabre]

Oh and I don't know if this makes a difference, but my friends have been telling the story to everyone we've seen since them, almost exactly as I told it here, and said that her jingoism made them 'embarrassed to be American'.

pdts

[Cisco]

Incidentally, Cisco, when did your brain start leaking out of your ears? I didn't think you could possibly be serious when I read your first post.
I'm not being completely serious in all of my posts. A lot of people here seem to think I am somehow agreeing with the woman in the OP - to them I can only suggest reading comprehension classes. I have just been using hyperbole and a bit of humor to illustrate my belief that he is just as wrong as the woman, IMO, and he shouldn't be surprised at the reaction he got. The fact that it "ruined his night" and provoked a rant thread on a forum he's brand new to - who knows how long after the fact - pegged my whine-o-meter and I had to comment.

I also agree with InLucemEdita: the story stank of sugar-coating from the start.

[put down the sabre]

O.K.
Sorry.
You win.
I'm convinced.
Congratulations.

It's OK. And don't be sorry - scepticism is a noble stance.

pdts

[put down the sabre]

I'm not being completely serious in all of my posts.

Ah, the scoundrel's internet defence... wouldn't that make you a troll?

pdts

[Omegaman]

Does it make a difference? How drunk would you have to be to involve yourself in a stranger's private conversation? It seems pretty out of line no matter what the OP was saying. Unless she was being really disruptive or threatening someone, I can't imagine butting in like that, even if the OP was being offensively anti-American. I'm hardly a shrinking violet or afraid to get into it with someone; I do however think that eavesdropping and then acting on the overhead conversation of strangers automatically puts you in the wrong, barring egregiously extenuating circumstances. Do people who aren't drunk and/or assholes really do this, and feel justified?

Not unless they have balls made of steel shot and a shank in their boot and a desire to see blood. Maybe a punk with hate in his eye. Few and far between but I've seen a couple. You know, till the end and all that bullshit.

[Odesio]

Probably 1/10th... and that's a lot.


I'd certainly love to see if anyone's actually done a study on this. 1 out of 10 residences in Little Rock aren't sporting an American flag.

Marc

[Cisco]

Ah, the scoundrel's internet defence... wouldn't that make you a troll?

pdts
:rolleyes: I saw that one coming up 3rd Street in a cab. I almost included a disclaimer but I held on to the hope that it wasn't necessary.

No, there is a difference between not being completely serious and being a troll. I wasn't sitting here laughing while intentionally trying to push your buttons. I was using language that amused me to illustrate a point that I believed and still believe, which basically boils down to what Contrapuntal said in post #50. Since you can't seem to get anything but your own interpretations out of my posts, here's hoping that citing someone else's will help convey the message.

[Rubystreak]

She's just a crazed jingoistic, flag-waving, American bitch who goes around bars listening in on conversations for foreign accents to pounce on...or...maybe it didn't quite go down like it has been presented.

Doesn't add up.

Well, I have to tell you, I have seen it happen. Not on this topic, but sometimes people are in fighting fettle and start shit for little or no reason, or because they have a hot button topic and, with a few drinks in them (or even without), off they go. Most people are too polite and circumspect to do that, but hey, it's not beyond belief to think the OP encountered someone who wasn't.

I don't know anything about the OP, so on its face, it doesn't seem like some impossible tale that could never have happened. Is there some concrete reason people are so skeptical here? I don't get it. A random semi-intoxicated person gets mouthy. It happens. The OP engaged the woman when she should have said, "Excuse me, I'd rather not discuss this with you," and turned away. Sometimes you indulge in the urge to defend yourself instead of being the perfectly mature adult. He who is without sin cast the first stone and all that. I would certainly be the last person to judge someone for that particular behavior.

[mnemosyne]

I have the feeling that Americans display their flag a lot more than people in other countries too, although I also think there's probably a bit (a lot?) of a bias in that; I probably don't even notice when I see a fleur-de-lis or the maple-leaf here in Montreal or elsewhere in Canada, but seeing the Stars and Stripes all over the place jumps out at me. It's a very.... noticeable.... flag. And when it is incorporated into other designs (stickers, t-shirts, car dealership signs) it is usually more blatant that a stylized leaf or a couple of official colours, because the STARS and the STRIPES are a big part of what the flag is, and those are visual patterns that stand out... a lot.

As for the Pledge of Allegiance: I find it creepy too, but I pretty much know that a large part of that is due to reading the odd story (really, we only get the odd ones in the news!) of some town or school board or state that decided to go all patriotic and force kids to say "under God" against their will, or whatever. Basically, other than the occasional TV show or movie, the only reference I've heard of the Pledge of Allegiance has been involving court cases and religious choice/immigration issues. But I also know that I wouldn't want to be expected to say it every day either... a "forced" promise isn't really a promise at all. Of course, I didn't like saying the Girl Guide promise when I was 9 either, because what if I didn't want to do my best at something?

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

Well then you and I are very different. I believe in giving an honest answer to an honest question (and I don't 'love' the USA, I am here for other reasons).

I do believe you owe me an apology for calling me a 'limey pussy'.

pdts


Why on earth would you want to ask for an apology? What good is an apology if it isn't sincerely given?

(1) I get very competitive in verbal argument, it's a personality flaw, but it helps in my chosen discipline.

I'm thinking it isn't just verbal arguments.

[Carol Stream]

And from (A) and (B):
You should prima facie believe what I have to say. In particular, nothing else said here appears to contradict it.

That's why.

pdts

That's not how it works here, son. You made an extraordinary claim, it's up to you to back it up. Here's what you said:

"This is false, in my experience, though I am in the South. Especially when you get outside of town around here, a very large proportion of houses has a US flag outside.
Pick a direction and drive from where I am now, I'd be surprised if I didn't see at least one or two in the first minute of driving."

A very large proportion implies at least 50%, but what were you saying? 60, 70, 80% of the houses are flying flags? That's prima facie bullshit, is what that is.

[put down the sabre]

That's not how it works here, son. You made an extraordinary claim, it's up to you to back it up. Here's what you said:

"This is false, in my experience, though I am in the South. Especially when you get outside of town around here, a very large proportion of houses has a US flag outside.
Pick a direction and drive from where I am now, I'd be surprised if I didn't see at least one or two in the first minute of driving."

A very large proportion implies at least 50%, but what were you saying? 60, 70, 80% of the houses are flying flags? That's prima facie bullshit, is what that is.

I can see why you say that, I think what we have here is a failure of communication.

What constitutes a 'very large proportion' is contextually determined, viz. wouldn't 20% of people infected with HIV be a 'very large proportion'?

You read it as 'more than half', I intended it as something less impressive.

My reading is a natural one, as can be seen in post 115:

Probably 1/10th... and that's a lot.

pdts

[put down the sabre]

Why on earth would you want to ask for an apology? What good is an apology if it isn't sincerely given?


I wasn't asking for an apology per se - I was pointing out that I feel one is owed. I wouldn't want an insincere one - I want him to either apologise and mean it, or tell me to fuck off and that he stands by what he says. I'd have more respect for him in either case than with all this "oh I was just kidding" nonsense.


pdts

[JimB.]

Half the Dope seems to be competitive when it comes to arguments. 3 pages and we've come to "Americans have a flag fetish." I feel pathetic for reading 3 pages of this.

[MrDibble]

I honestly don't understand what Europeans find so unnerving or uncomfortable about the ubiquitous appearance of our flag within our borders.
Watch a little documentary called Triumph of the Will, it might enlighten you...

[GSV Consolation of Dreams]

People from England refer to us as seppos. As in septic tanks.

Seppos? I never heard that expression used in my 31 years of residence in the UK.
Septic tank I can recall reading once in (IIRC) VIZ magazine, but that rag is purposefully juvenile and insulting to just about everyone.

[Kyla]

And there's been conflicting reports in this thread regarding Dallas, Little Rock, and Chicago that state otherwise. Why should anyone believe you?

I live in Chicago, too, and I disagree. Walk down the street in any residential neighborhood on any given day and you will see a considerable number of flags flying from porches. I suspect anyone who disagrees is just used to it and is tuning them out.

Americans like flags. I don't think it's a big deal, but it's true. Some Europeans think that it means there is something inherently wrong with that, to which I say: "whatever". I'm not much for flag flying myself, though.

Speaking as an expat, I think pdts was behaving perfectly acceptably. When I'm on vacation, I don't criticize the country I'm visiting because I'm a guest and I don't necessarily know much about the politics. In Bulgaria, I feel okay about making lightly critical remarks, because I do live here and I know what's up. (Not "This place is completely fucked up!" but maybe "I wish people wouldn't litter quite so much.") I expect pdts feels the same way towards the US.

The woman in the OP was a bitch, and Cisco is being a complete dick in this thread.

[Carson O'Genic]

About two weeks after 9/11 there were flags just about everywhere in the NE US. We took a road trip vacation the following summer through NJ, NY and New England; observation compels the statement.
Mostly gone now, 24/7 exposure taking their toll. The Chinese made flags went first, though tatters on car antenna can still be seen.

[Fuji]

Or at the Post Office, same as in the US. http://www.fotosearch.com/photos-images/irish-flag.html

What the hell are you talking about? And why did you include that link to Irish flag images? I know what the flag looks like, you cretin. I'm the one that actually lives here, unlike you.

I made careful observations on my way to work today - a 10 minute walk that takes me right through the center of town. I noticed only 2 Irish flags on display, both at hotels (one of them was right next to the Stars and Stripes). The front of the post office was conspicuously bare.

Your unfounded assertions make you look like a complete ass.

[Omegaman]

About two weeks after 9/11 there were flags just about everywhere in the NE US. We took a road trip vacation the following summer through NJ, NY and New England; observation compels the statement.
Mostly gone now, 24/7 exposure taking their toll. The Chinese made flags went first, though tatters on car antenna can still be seen.

See that's just sad. I fly one in my back yard from a twenty foot pole. It's a pole that I purchased at Sams Club, I saw one shopping there with my wife just the other day. Since it's not proper ettiquette to fly one at night unlit, and I am no longer in the Boy Scouts where while camping we raised and lowered the flag like the military does, I installed a sensor activated light (dusk to dawn) that shines on it. As I'm in the flight path of Nellis A.F.B. I like to think that pilots flying their warbirds see it at night moreso than in the day. I purchase the flags at Walmart and the last time I checked they were still made in America. You might all laugh, but I know I'm not the only guy like this in the U.S.A. and I hope PDYS doesn't think I'm having him on, because I'm serious as a heart attack. Just think what it means to a pilot that flys a plane to see a flag flying at some guys house. There is another thread in IMHO that I explain in further detail my feelings about serivce personnel.

I hope you see this one as well Dio

[Omegaman]

What the hell are you talking about? And why did you include that link to Irish flag images? I know what the flag looks like, you cretin. I'm the one that actually lives here, unlike you.

I made careful observations on my way to work today - a 10 minute walk that takes me right through the center of town. I noticed only 2 Irish flags on display, both at hotels (one of them was right next to the Stars and Stripes). The front of the post office was conspicuously bare.

Your unfounded assertions make you look like a complete ass.

You kill me Fuji, I haven't heard the word cretin in a while. :)

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

No. I would expect to get shivved by a hooligan or a chav on my way out.

Yawn. Learned some new words, have you? Hint: chav =/= criminal.

[Fuji]

I don't know about that. I've seen quite a few Irish flags flying at private residences. I guess it depends on what part of America you are from.

Sorry I was unclear in my post. I was making a comparison of U.S. flags outside U.S. homes vis-a-vis Irish flags outside Irish homes. My point, as confirmed by the observations of others in this thread, is that Americans display their flag, in both public and private, at a significantly higher rate than many other nationalities display their respective flags. (Ironically, I agree with your report - I've seen more Irish flags outside U.S. homes than Irish ones.) I never said I saw anything wrong with that (I like seeing all kinds of flags). Just making an observation.

As to the OP, I think he/she was certainly well within their rights to express criticism of the U.S. to their friends, and the drunk woman who responded was in the wrong. That said, I still probably wouldn't be making the comments in a bar unless I was sure I couldn't be overheard by nearby patrons. In my experience, most fights amongst adults are fueled by alcohol, and being in the right won't help you if Joe Sixpack lays a nice cranial fracture on you...

[Fuji]

You kill me Fuji, I haven't heard the word cretin in a while. :)

Thanks, Omegaman. There's only so many times one can say "fucking asshole" before it loses its flavor... ;)

[Loach]

What the hell are you talking about? And why did you include that link to Irish flag images? I know what the flag looks like, you cretin. I'm the one that actually lives here, unlike you.

I made careful observations on my way to work today - a 10 minute walk that takes me right through the center of town. I noticed only 2 Irish flags on display, both at hotels (one of them was right next to the Stars and Stripes). The front of the post office was conspicuously bare.

Your unfounded assertions make you look like a complete ass.

I think you missed it. Scoll down a little in that link and there is a picture of a flag on an Irish post office.

[BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed]

You hopped on "limey wuss" as "racist abuse", in the pit, mind you...I think your ability to characterize conversations may be similarly off kilter.

Sorry, exactly how is "limey" anything not being racist? It's exactly the same as Jap, Paki, or any number of epithets people use against people from a particular country. Just because England happens to be largely white doesn't mean that it's not racist.

And being in a bar with friends should be exactly the kind of place where I can freely express myself. As long as I'm not shouting things over the roar of the crowd, who the fuck cares what I say? Even if I were sitting one table over from a fucking Klan meeting, as long as they were quietly discussing things amongst themselves about how niggers should fucking burn, or a table of the Taliban talking about the fucking cracker-Satan conspiracy, as long as they were quiet I most likely wouldn't have a thing to say to them. What, am I going to change some crazy asshole's mind about the fucked up shit he believes by confronting him in a bar? If I could hear too much of the conversation I might change tables or leave, but as long as he doesn't confront me or make a disturbance, I'm not going to say anything.

The woman in the OP was an asshole.

And in regards to the rampant "patriotism" in the states, I want to distance myself so greatly from the people who became most vocal about "killing sand niggers" after 9/11 that I will never fly a flag from my house or a "proud to be an American" bumper sticker on my car. Despite the fact that I am a proud American, those people ruined that aspect of my pride for me. I show my pride in other ways. Criticizing my country is just one of those ways.

[Fuji]

I think you missed it. Scoll down a little in that link and there is a picture of a flag on an Irish post office.

Yes, but that's the main post office in the capital and largest city (by far) in the country. It still doesn't invalidate my observation that the post office in my town (or the next town over) in County Cork doesn't display one. They also sell lottery tickets inside and allow local merchants to advertise their wares, both of which are verboten in the States. Post offices here are quite dissimilar to their U.S. counterparts in many ways, one of which is infrequent usage of the national flag. (Whaddaya expect from a country that doesn't even have zip/postal codes!)Personally, I can't recall ever going to a U.S. post office where Old Glory was not proudly on display.

I'm pretty sure the local police station also doesn't display the flag - I'll doublecheck on my way home tonight. I also don't ever recall seeing a U.S. police station (not including substations) that didn't show the flag.

[yojimbo]

Pearse Street and Store Street Police stations(both main Dublin stations) don't have any flags.

With regard to the GPO in Dublin it is also of major historical signifigance to the Irish Republic as it was the center of the 1916 Rising. It was outside this building that the Proclamation of Independence (http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/proclaim.htm) was made. If any building in the whole country is gonna fly the tri-colour it's that one.

[Malacandra]

Regarding "seppoes" - I don't believe that, here or elsewhere in a good deal of rhyming slang generally, any simile is intended; only that the phrase should rhyme with the word for which it stands. (Or would, if it were used in full, but the whole point of this kind of cant is that the actual rhyming part is only implied.)

Examples include: "Front-wheel {skid}" = "Yid" - Jew, about which there is nothing traction avante-sh

"Berk{shire Hunt}" - person of little worth or account, with no connection to toff sports

"Apples {and pears}" - means of ascent to an upper storey, most unlikely to be fruit-like

"Bubble {and squeak}" - Hellenic, bearing no relation to a side of refried potatoes and greens

Admittedly in some instances, such as "trouble {and strife}" for a man's spousal partner, there may be a slight echo of, in this instance, marital disharmony, but the alternative term, "Du{t}ch{ess of Fife}" has nothing to do with any noblewomen.

Consequently, please may all Americans be assured that "seppo" is named only for a common object ending in "-ank", and no invidious comparison to a holding place for festering sewage is intended, implied, or in the mind of the user.

We now return you to the hands-across-the-sea spirit prevalent in this thread.

[Risha]

I'm just stunned by the number of people who seem to think that flags in front of private residences are rare. You're tuning them out, being deliberately disingenuous, or live in really bizarre areas. I think that it's considerably less than 1/10th, at least around here, but every residential street is guaranteed to have at least one every few blocks.

For the record since I'm posting anyway, I don't think that an inpat being somewhat critical about a minor aspect of the country they live in is anything but completely reasonable. Of course, I don't hang out in bars very often, partially because I don't like dealing with drunk assholes like the woman in the OP.

[DCTrekkie]

Hint: chav =/= criminal.
Maybe not, but theres a huge overlap between the two groups.

[The Flying Dutchman]

So I'm coming to the end of my first year in the US.

Was sat in a bar today talking with (American) friends about what I liked, and what I don't like. Was talking about how the Pledge of Allegiance and flag-fetish make me vaguely uncomfortable, but different strokes for different folks and all that.

This woman sat next to me (there were 3 of us, and 3 of them) cuts in with an (angry) "excuse me you come from a country with a monarchy" - seems she was really angry about me not being uniformly positive about the USA. I was sober -- on first drink -- she had had a few, I think, but wasn't obviously very drunk.

We argued for a bit, with me mostly being sarcastic ("thank you for reminding me of the UK's political system"). She's losing, and getting embarrassed, and she calls me a "fucking cunt". Well, how nice. Me and my friends wonder aloud why she thinks the vagina is negative. Her friends giggle, she's on her own.

Thanks for ruining my night, you rude, jingoistic bitch.

pdts

(Somewhat angry also at my friend for dragging me away when I wanted to tell her, as I was leaving, that if she is so keen to defend her country there's a shortage of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan; my friend was just trying to help though.)

This rant is so without merit that I feel the need to respond.

I'm pretty sure the lady in question didn't lose any sleep over the argument. Her friends were enjoying it as well.

Look, you engaged an conversation that was totally critical of your perception of America. You discussed issues that some Americans who like to express their love of country by waving their flag and pledging allegience (issues that have divided Americans heretofore) with sarcasm, making it personal. You couldn't have dissed her more if you called her a cunt or a wanker.

Your Americans friends (all two of them) might be comfortable with criticism of their countrymen, (americans are so publicly divided on issues), but as a foreigner/guest you criticized a good number of American people. It wasn't like you were criticizing the American government which is fair game for everyone.

[Dead Badger]

Regarding "seppoes" - I don't believe that, here or elsewhere in a good deal of rhyming slang generally, any simile is intended;I might also add that in 24 years of living in England, I have heard the term "septic" or variations thereon used maybe three or four times, and those mostly in a "ha ha I know a bit of rhyming slang" context, so anyone trembling at the thought of those nasty limeys with their rapier-like slang can probably rest easy. Sometimes we go whole minutes without thinking of Americans, you know.

Except Jennifer Connelly, of course. She is with us always.
We now return you to the hands-across-the-sea spirit prevalent in this thread.Heartwarming (http://bp0.blogger.com/_mlBcpffZHfo/Rq2Bfl0np7I/AAAAAAAAAvE/wGYfh857qxs/s320/HomerChokeBart.gif), innit?

Oh, and I'm utterly amazed that anyone could seriously contend that flags aren't widespread in the States. Well, I was utterly amazed until I saw that it was Carol doing the contending.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Sometimes we go whole minutes without thinking of Americans, you know.
Only since Baywatch went off the air.

[Justin_Bailey]

Care to give a couple of examples of what you're talking about? As others have said, I have lived in the Chicago area for all of my 40-odd years, and I have never experienced anything of the sort. Nor have I had occasion to say the Pledge since graduating highschool. :dubious:

Exactly. There are three groups that have any dealings with the Pledge on a daily basis:

1. People who want "under God" taken out of the Pledge.
2. People who want "under God" kept in the Pledge.
3. Third graders.

And groups one and two don't count as they're always the parents of kids in group three. So yeah, that is one thing I will never understand. It comes up a lot with non-US people on this board about how we Americans are obsessed with the Pledge. And then they link to a news article concerning a lone nut from group one or two.

Say it with me, lone nut.

But what does it matter, everyone in England has crippled a man in a soccer riot and everyone in Germany is a Neo-Nazi. Oh wait...

[Dinsdale]

God, as much as I dread the idea of starting the workweek 1.5 hours after clocking in, I couldn't force myself to read past page 2 of this drivel.

I'm sure the OP showed exactly as astute judgment in sizing up the situation in the bar, as he did in coming into the Pit and expressing shock at being personally insulted! :p

[Dead Badger]

Being a UK-resident American, on a summer vacation job in Texas I was required as a condition of employment to recite the Pledge standing in front of a desktop flag with my hand on the bible (which seemed excessive). With my prodigiously English accent it was quite the spectacle in the HR office. There was much surreptitious giggling.

It comes up a lot with non-US people on this board about how we Americans are obsessed with the Pledge. And then they link to a news article concerning a lone nut from group one or two.From many foreign perspectives, category 3 on its own is eyebrow-raising enough. As far as the Pledge goes, the "under God" stories are just generally the most easily linkable ones because no-one who wants to continue in journalism writes a story entitled, "children forced to recite pledge for 47,000th consecutive schoolday." Americans are, by western standards, unusually preoccupied with expressions of national loyalty, be it flags or pledges or lapel badges or whatever. This isn't to say that you're unhealthily preoccupied or anything, merely more so than most. There just doesn't seem much point in disputing this, to me; for crying out loud, the fact that Obama stopped wearing the flag lapel pin is considered news by some (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299439,00.html). Personally I wouldn't call the Pledge an "obsession"; more of a weird pecadillo that (as you say) for certain lone nuts assumes disproportionate importance. But then the OP didn't call it an obsession either, nor did he cite "under God" nuts, so that's really just a strawman.

If it makes you feel any better, Gordon Brown appears to be on a ridiculous drive to incorporate similarly unpalatable garbage into the UK's curriculum as part of some nebulous "citizenship initiative". It won't even have that mild leavening of tradition that your Pledge has, it'll be shitty government-inspired neologisms wiffling on about "togetherness" and "values", as if community spirit were something you get from a pamphlet. So I'm sure that any day now we won't have a leg to stand on in these discussions either.

[yojimbo]

Look, you engaged an conversation that was totally critical of your perception of America. You discussed issues that some Americans who like to express their love of country by waving their flag and pledging allegience (issues that have divided Americans heretofore) with sarcasm, making it personal. You couldn't have dissed her more if you called her a cunt or a wanker.
Well if there are people are likely to get that offended when they overhear a stranger say that the flag/pledge thing makes them slightly uncomfortable, then I wouldn't blame the OP being slightly uncomfortable with it in the first place. That's a bit of a over-reaction to say the least.

[Dead Badger]

Too late to edit, but when I say "Americans are...", I clearly mean on average rather than in the universal specific. Many individuals aren't, I know (self obviously included). Feel free to assume as many more such precautionary qualifications as necessary to prevent rage. :)

[Justin_Bailey]

Being a UK-resident American, on a summer vacation job in Texas I was required as a condition of employment to recite the Pledge standing in front of a desktop flag with my hand on the bible (which seemed excessive). With my prodigiously English accent it was quite the spectacle in the HR office. There was much surreptitious giggling.

Lone nuts

From many foreign perspectives, category 3 on its own is eyebrow-raising enough. As far as the Pledge goes, the "under God" stories are just generally the most easily linkable ones because no-one who wants to continue in journalism writes a story entitled, "children forced to recite pledge for 47,000th consecutive schoolday."

This discussion also seems to ignore the fact that even third graders (and the teachers of such) are not terribly concerned with the Pledge. It continues on in the way it is now purely out of inertia, nothing more. By third grade, everyone is just mumbling the pledge along with the teacher anyway.

Americans are, by western standards, unusually preoccupied with expressions of national loyalty, be it flags or pledges or lapel badges or whatever. This isn't to say that you're unhealthily preoccupied or anything, merely more so than most. There just doesn't seem much point in disputing this, to me; for crying out loud, the fact that Obama stopped wearing the flag lapel pin is considered news by some (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299439,00.html). Personally I wouldn't call the Pledge an "obsession"; more of a weird pecadillo that (as you say) for certain lone nuts assumes disproportionate importance.

More lone nuts looking to create a news story where there is none or trying to discredit Obama for political gain. You'll notice how it was laughed off and didn't work right?

[Dead Badger]

Lone nutsThe US government, in point of fact. In any case, I offered it more as an anecdote that amused me than to make any point - the very fact that everyone in the office found it so funny indicates it's hardly a regular occurrence. My US-resident fellow students were not required to pledge.

This discussion also seems to ignore the fact that even third graders (and the teachers of such) are not terribly concerned with the Pledge. It continues on in the way it is now purely out of inertia, nothing more. By third grade, everyone is just mumbling the pledge along with the teacher anyway.Not in dispute, but it's still odd from a foreign perspective. The fact that anyone at all says it on a regular basis is weird to us. Recent proposals over here for a pledge to the Queen were met with snorts of derision; it's just something we find strange, is all, and something which is undeniably different about the States.

More lone nuts looking to create a news story where there is none or trying to discredit Obama for political gain. You'll notice how it was laughed off and didn't work right?Again, no (well, little) argument here but the very fact it was brought up at all is odd from a foreign perspective. Which, if you recall, is exactly what the OP was asked for by his friends. Not an objective value judgement or an essay on the realities of nationalistic fervour among suburban Americans - just his perspective. "Patriotism" is a noun which hardly ever crops up in political stories over here, and it's not ground over which politicians compete - indeed, someone loudly trumpeting such values would be viewed somewhat askance (most likely because they'd be a nut from a party like UKIP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Independence_Party)). And you must equally agree that there are no doubt some who will take barbs at Obama's patriotism seriously. More than can be written off as lone nuts, too.

I'm sure that, much like air conditioning noise, all this stuff largely fades into the background for most Americans and anyone who spends a long time living there. That doesn't change the fact that the OP was asked by his friends for his perspectives as a foreigner on living in America, and that the general prevalence of overt patriotism there is one of those things which, for many foreigners, is most noticeable on arrival.

[Grossbottom]

Flag waving and nationalism make me uncomfortable.

Well, not really. Mostly I'm just an effete, pompous shitbird who pretends to be sophisticatedly bewlidered by vulgar colonial behaviors. I even use the word "uncomfortable" so that my audience can associate me with being a victim. See, if I outright refer to American cultural behaviors as wrong, it makes me look like the intolerant tourist that I am. But when I say that nationalism makes me uncomfortable, I'm suddenly a victim of your boorishness and my own delicate sensibilities.

It's just how I keeps it real in the drinking establishments of America.

[yojimbo]

But when I say that nationalism makes me uncomfortable, I'm suddenly a victim of your boorishness and my own delicate sensibilities.
You only become a victim when a person sticks their nose into your conversation. A person that seems to take a mild slight at best and turn in into a major deal. But then again she was a lone nut. There's no other evidence of people taking the OP's statements as something a lot stronger than it was and becoming very defensive about it. No... no evidence at all.

For fuck sake.

[Dead Badger]

Well, not really. Mostly I'm just an effete, pompous shitbird who pretends to be sophisticatedly bewlidered by vulgar colonial behaviors.Whereas, of course, your response to a mild opinion is robust and manly, and not at all an overreaction. Several Americans in this thread have attested to the fact that it makes them "uncomfortable", too*. Are they also "effete, pompous shitbird[s]"? Can nobody genuinely be just "uncomfortable" with something; must there really be something more sinister going on? You're doing an awful lot of projecting. As I said, Britons tend to get awkward around expressions of British patriotism (maybe it's because our anthem is such an atrocious dirge), so you really shouldn't feel singled out or belittled. Unless you want to, that is.

*I'm among them, but unfortunately I own and occasionally wear a velvet jacket so am going to be unable to defend myself on charges of effeteness, m'lud.

[Loach]

Yes, but that's the main post office in the capital and largest city (by far) in the country. It still doesn't invalidate my observation that the post office in my town (or the next town over) in County Cork doesn't display one. They also sell lottery tickets inside and allow local merchants to advertise their wares, both of which are verboten in the States. Post offices here are quite dissimilar to their U.S. counterparts in many ways, one of which is infrequent usage of the national flag. (Whaddaya expect from a country that doesn't even have zip/postal codes!)Personally, I can't recall ever going to a U.S. post office where Old Glory was not proudly on display.

I'm pretty sure the local police station also doesn't display the flag - I'll doublecheck on my way home tonight. I also don't ever recall seeing a U.S. police station (not including substations) that didn't show the flag.

Yes but in your post you called someone a cretin for showing you pictures of a flag even though you know what that flag looks like. They were showing you a picture of a specific flag and place which you seem to have missed. I'm sure you are 100% correct about everything else. The only time I was in Ireland was 20 years ago. I wasn't looking for flags. Although I seem to recall quite a few. But that might have been because I was marching in the Dublin St Patricks Day parade. I'm sure there are more Irish flags in America than in Ireland.

[yojimbo]

It looks like there are hundreds of pictures on the page posted. One of them shows the GPO and it's not at the top. I think he can be forgiven making a mistake about the intention of the link.

Yeah you may see a bit of Green White and Orange on Paddy's Day ;)

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/images/2008/0317/image_200275_1.jpg

[Odesio]

Watch a little documentary called Triumph of the Will, it might enlighten you...


George Bush jokes aside, we're not a bunch of funking Nazis.

Marc

[pulykamell]

When I lived away from the US for several years and returned, I, too, found all the flags a bit weird and disconcerting. Perhaps even uncomfortable. One of the reasons is that I had gotten used to equating the more egregious flag-wavers with ardent right-wing nationalism and outright xenophobia in the countries I visited.

Most people I met had some pride in their national identity, but most were not keen on outward displays of national identity like flags, pins, and the such, except for, possibly, on national holidays. The people who did tend to outwardly display their national identity with such markers are those who felt their national identity being threatened.

At least this is the sense I got, as gross of an oversimplification as it may be. Here, in the US, it doesn't seem to have quite the same connotations. You may find some overlap, but I think there is a lot more casual flag-waving here.

But I can see how it makes people uncomfortable. Hell, I find it weird, too.

[Odesio]

I'm just stunned by the number of people who seem to think that flags in front of private residences are rare. You're tuning them out, being deliberately disingenuous, or live in really bizarre areas. I think that it's considerably less than 1/10th, at least around here, but every residential street is guaranteed to have at least one every few blocks.


One every few blocks is hardly common.

Marc

[MrDibble]

George Bush jokes aside, we're not a bunch of funking Nazis.

I was replying as to why a European might see a bit of over-enthusiastic flag-waving as not totally harmless. I was thinking specifically of the flag-blessing ceremony in TotW.

[villa]

One every few blocks is hardly common.


It is compared to other countries I have visited. I really think this is a major difference between the US and Europe. I don't think it is a bad thing necessarily - hell, as I said I fly one.

[Really Not All That Bright]

One every few blocks is hardly common.

Marc
Dude. One every few blocks (which is a conservative estimate) is one more than you'll see per block in any residential or commercial area in Europe (except in Denmark). That makes it a lot.

Not a lot in absolute terms, but a lot in relative terms. Stop being so fucking dense.

[InLucemEdita]

Sorry, exactly how is "limey" anything not being racist? It's exactly the same as Jap, Paki, or any number of epithets people use against people from a particular country. Just because England happens to be largely white doesn't mean that it's not racist.

It is not racist because there is a difference between race, ethnicity, and country of origin. "Limey" is a mild term describing the country of origin, sometimes derogatory, sometimes simply a nickname (check wikipedia for both uses) on a par with "Yank" for Americans. Neither has anything to do with race. And neither has anything to do with ethnic origin; you can be a "Yank" or a "Limey" with many different ethnic or racial backgrounds.

So, nothing to do with race makes it NOT racist, by definition. Got it?

Other terms for country of origin are considered to be more offensive, and I think context has a lot to do with it. It is my understanding that "Jap" is considered more offensive both because Japanese refers to both a country and a distinct ethnicity, and moreso because the word "Jap" was used in the context of imprisoning innocent Japanese Americans during WWII. "Limey" and "Yank" have no similar context that I am aware of. "Jap" is still not racist though...unless you consider Japanese to be a race...I think it is an ethnicity with the Asian race, but I'm sure there are those who know more about this distinction than I. I've never heard anyone called a "Paki" so I don't know it's level of offensiveness to those of Pakistani origin. I don't know why someone would be offended by a nickname that simply describes their country of origin, unless that term has been used in some other negative context.

Frankly, I come from a place where me and my Mick Granpa, and my Dago Girlfriend, and my Canuck friends are all proud enough of our origins and secure enough in our natures to accept nicknames without offense. And we certainly wouldn't cheapen the concept of racism by applying it where it is totally unwarranted.

And we would all think you are a fucking idiot no matter what you called yourself.

Cheers.

[MrDibble]

I should add that South Africans are a leeetle bit mad for our new flag as well - you find it in a lot of places. Here, I think it ties into post-apartheid nation building. Hell, I own a beaded flag lapel pin, and I'm as unpatriotic as they come.
Except for the odd sport match.

[Fuji]

Yes but in your post you called someone a cretin for showing you pictures of a flag even though you know what that flag looks like. They were showing you a picture of a specific flag and place which you seem to have missed. I'm sure you are 100% correct about everything else. The only time I was in Ireland was 20 years ago. I wasn't looking for flags. Although I seem to recall quite a few. But that might have been because I was marching in the Dublin St Patricks Day parade. I'm sure there are more Irish flags in America than in Ireland.

You're correct - I did miss that the first time.

But Carol Stream's assertion appeared to me to conisist basically of: "Here's a pic of an Irish PO with an Irish flag. Therefore, you're full of shit when you say Irish PO's don't show Irish flags." As if one highly atypical example (kindly confirmed by yojimbo) would serve to refute my direct, ongoing observations. Hence my labelling of CS as a cretin.

I still stand by that remark.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Speaking as an "inpat", the flag thing doesn't make me uncomfortable at all. I think it's weird, but not scary (which is pretty much the sentiment expressed in the OP).

The Pledge, on the other hand, was certainly scary, at least when I was in school. It put me in mind of nothing so much as Chinese kids reciting the words of Mao Tsedong in old newsreels. I see any sort of ceremony which aims to indoctinate kids into believing in the benevolence and wonderfulness of the State as rather authoritarian.

Once I'd been here long enough to realize that nobody takes it seriously, and that most people never have to say it once they're out of school, it seemed much more benign.

[Broomstick]

Cry me a fucking river. Maybe she was drunk and disorderly but she had a point regarding politeness - don't criticize a place you're visiting. Be it someone's home, another state, or another country, it's rude.
Let's see - she's been here an entire year and people who are her friends asked for (presumably) her honest opinion about her experience here... and what, you want her to LIE about what she doesn't like?

You know, I have at times asked foreigners their opinions of my country. When I do so I want their HONEST OPINION and not some fucking pleasant lie. I want the TRUTH. If I did not want a truthful answer I would not have asked the question.

But I guess you're more interested in feeling good than actual honesty. I'll keep that in mind - if I ask you a direct question I can't trust you to answer truthfully, since keeping up appearances is apparently more important to you than honesty.

[Fuji]

I should add that South Africans are a leeetle bit mad for our new flag as well - you find it in a lot of places. Here, I think it ties into post-apartheid nation building. Hell, I own a beaded flag lapel pin, and I'm as unpatriotic as they come.
Except for the odd sport match.

Well, yeah. But that's 'cause you guys have a cool flag, with a little flair in its design and colors.

It's not just another flag with 3 stripes, like half of Europe and Latin America. I mean, really - as demonstrated by Jared Leto's character in the movie Lord of War, all you have to do to make a Dutch flag is rotate a French flag 90 degrees. Pretty lame...

[Broomstick]

OP comes in here and whines that he got treated exactly how I (and probably most of us) would expect to get treated if I was in a foreign country and started criticizing their government and/or culture in a public place. Sure, America is the big Red-White-and-Blue Meanie, but turn the situation around. Would you go have this conversation in France or Brazil or the UK, or anywhere else, and not expect the treatment the OP got?
Actually, I did have a very similar conversation in France while I was there. The people I was staying with asked me what I did and didn't like about their country. Funny, though - no one called me a cunt for it. Then again, the French tend to be a lot less crude in public than Americans (a trait I liked about the French). I, of course, was as tactful as I could be in a second language, usually emphasizing that it was strangeness/unexpected difference that was the main thing. At least the OP ewasn't struggling with a language barrier.

Frankly, I don't understand why you get so bent about the OP's statement that she finds our flag fetish odd and uncomfortable - it IS odd compared to other countries, which you might know if you actually gave a damn about honest answers to questions rather than demanding everyone else in the world make you feel good.

[ArizonaTeach]

You've been there for five years and you're afraid to criticize Arizona? You're the wuss here. I don't know why you think everyone in the entire fucking world is as overly sensitive to criticism as you seem to be.
To be fair, Cisco is still on probationary status here in Arizona.

Unfortunately, this thread isn't helping.

[Broomstick]

Stop right there. I would not respond with any negatives - not in public for sure, and probably not at all. I learned this lesson when I was very young and moved around a lot. As a "recent" (5 years) transplant to Arizona, this topic still comes up a lot, and sure there are things that annoy me about the place - pollution, traffic, awful summers, etc. - but my typical response is, "I wouldn't be here if I didn't love it." And deep down that's true and it's all that matters. But let's continue for for the sake of argument . . .
Yes, I really would.
Oh, so you're a liar.

Except, of course, on a message board where you feel free to spew everything you've otherwise suppressed. Why is it OK to tell the truth on a public message board but a requirement to lie face to face?

[Grossbottom]

Can nobody genuinely be just "uncomfortable" with something; must there really be something more sinister going on?
Oh, of course they can be dahling. That's why, for me, pledging the flag is up there with seeing your parents naked, or finding a giant greasy dildo in your mother's purse, or getting a surprise finger up your ass at doctor's office. They all make me so...uncomfortable, you know? Like the time I woke up with a bruise on my bum. After I had the servants search the bedding, they found a pea at the very bottom of all those mattresses. A pea! Can you imagine!

We're just delicate, you and I. The little things make us so...unsettled. Le sigh.

[Risha]

One every few blocks is hardly common.

MarcI think we're back to "deliberately disingenuous" here. Surely one every few blocks doesn't count as "rare"?

Anything that you see multiples of every day is "common", no matter what the exact percentage is.

[Omegaman]

Oh, of course they can be dahling. That's why, for me, pledging the flag is up there with seeing your parents naked, or finding a giant greasy dildo in your mother's purse, or getting a surprise finger up your ass at doctor's office. They all make me so...uncomfortable, you know? Like the time I woke up with a bruise on my bum. After I had the servants search the bedding, they found a pea at the very bottom of all those mattresses. A pea! Can you imagine!

We're just delicate, you and I. The little things make us so...unsettled. Le sigh.

Come on now! With a user name like Grossbottom your ass should be able to withstand a steel toe boot! When I see your name I think Nasty Ass. I figured it might be more about your personality than your hygiene though. ;)

[Grossbottom]

Come on now! With a user name like Grossbottom your ass should be able to withstand a steel toe boot! When I see your name I think Nasty Ass. I figured it might be more about your personality than your hygiene though. ;)
Please stop good sir, you're making me uncomfortable!

[jtgain]

I think that in the surrender documents after Yorktown, Cornwallis specifically agreed to the idea that Americans could tell you Brits off any time we wanted.

You got a little uppity in 1812, and we showed you again. Will you people never learn? ;)

[Frylock]

So I'm coming to the end of my first year in the US.

Was sat in a bar today talking with (American) friends about what I liked, and what I don't like. Was talking about how the Pledge of Allegiance and flag-fetish make me vaguely uncomfortable, but different strokes for different folks and all that.

This woman sat next to me (there were 3 of us, and 3 of them) cuts in with an (angry) "excuse me you come from a country with a monarchy" - seems she was really angry about me not being uniformly positive about the USA. I was sober -- on first drink -- she had had a few, I think, but wasn't obviously very drunk.

We argued for a bit, with me mostly being sarcastic ("thank you for reminding me of the UK's political system"). She's losing, and getting embarrassed, and she calls me a "fucking cunt". Well, how nice. Me and my friends wonder aloud why she thinks the vagina is negative. Her friends giggle, she's on her own.

Thanks for ruining my night, you rude, jingoistic bitch.

pdts

(Somewhat angry also at my friend for dragging me away when I wanted to tell her, as I was leaving, that if she is so keen to defend her country there's a shortage of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan; my friend was just trying to help though.)

If you guys even had this lady's own friends laughing at her, I'm not why you should come away feeling your night's been ruined. Sure, it's best if there are no such confrontations, but if there is one, and you take the rhetorical upper hand so handily, can't you call it a good outcome?

-FrL-

[Malacandra]

I think that in the surrender documents after Yorktown, Cornwallis specifically agreed to the idea that Americans could tell you Brits off any time we wanted.

You got a little uppity in 1812, and we showed you again. Will you people never learn? ;)
Uppity? Yes, we did. Tell the President that his dinner was delicious, by the way. Sorry about that little bit of cosmetic damage to the White House, but we're sure it'll scrub up with a spot of elbow grease.

We're ashamed of our poor showing in this minor dust-up, but we do have bigger fish to fry over on our side of the ocean. If you ever paid attention to what was going on outside of your own shores you might have heard of it. :p So I'm afraid our A team was otherwise engaged, donchaknow?

[DCTrekkie]

I think that in the surrender documents after Yorktown, Cornwallis specifically agreed to the idea that Americans could tell you Brits off any time we wanted.

You got a little uppity in 1812, and we showed you again. Will you people never learn? ;)
Strong words from a country thats back under British rule (http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/rich-tehrani/personal/john-cleeses-letter-to-america.html) :D

[Cisco]

Broomstick, it's hard to respond to someone who has so grossly misunderstood the content of my posts, but I'll give it a shot.
Let's see - she's been here an entire year and people who are her friends asked for (presumably) her honest opinion about her experience here... and what, you want her to LIE about what she doesn't like?What did I say about what I want her to do? Nothing. I said she shouldn't be surprised she got called out for it when doing it in a public place. I personally would've omitted the negative things in that situation, which I believe were more than she has let on.

You know, I have at times asked foreigners their opinions of my country. When I do so I want their HONEST OPINION and not some fucking pleasant lie. I want the TRUTH. If I did not want a truthful answer I would not have asked the question.What are you, a judge? It depends on context, personal preference, opinion, etc. You are getting bent out of shape about this.

But I guess you're more interested in feeling good than actual honesty. I'll keep that in mind - if I ask you a direct question I can't trust you to answer truthfully, since keeping up appearances is apparently more important to you than honesty.
Again, since when was this about what I want?
Actually, I did have a very similar conversation in France while I was there. The people I was staying with asked me what I did and didn't like about their country. Funny, though - no one called me a cunt for it. Then again, the French tend to be a lot less crude in public than Americans (a trait I liked about the French). I, of course, was as tactful as I could be in a second language, usually emphasizing that it was strangeness/unexpected difference that was the main thing. At least the OP ewasn't struggling with a language barrier.
This paragraph is practically agreeing with me so I don't think I need to address it beyond pointing that out.
Frankly, I don't understand why you get so bent about the OP's statement that she finds our flag fetish odd and uncomfortableI got "bent out of shape" by the OP acting like an annoying douche. Show me where I specifically got mad that she criticized our flag. (I didn't get bent out of shape, by the way.) - it IS odd compared to other countries, which you might know if you actually gave a damn about honest answers to questions rather than demanding everyone else in the world make you feel good.You're really stretching. Did you read my posts or did a martian who heard them second-hand dramatise them for you through interpretive dance?

Oh, so you're a liar.:rolleyes: Fuck you, read what I wrote. Your posts in this thread are far more dishonest than me leaving out the negatives when someone asks me about their homeland. Did you tell your grandma her crust tastes like shit when she baked you an apple pie?

Except, of course, on a message board where you feel free to spew everything you've otherwise suppressed. Why is it OK to tell the truth on a public message board but a requirement to lie face to face?
What the fuck have a supressed? Your posts in this thread are just . . . bizarre. I know you're an intelligent person - I've read many of your posts on aviation - but go back and read what I've written here and how you've responded. You're barking up the wrong tree.

[eleanorigby]

To the OP: welcome to our country, where morons tend to be the loudest (cisco, I'm looking at you--go wave a flag somewhere and watch you don't poke someone's eye out with it). The woman in the bar was rude to you, yes. She was also drunk, and eavesdropping, and an idiot. You'll meet a lot of those if you stick around the states. She was wrong to pick a fight with you. You were wrong to rise to her bait.

As a lifelong, born here, died in the wool, citizen, I find the flag waving/pledge saying jingoism to be ridiculous, tedious and rather silly. My neighbor does have a flagpole and does display the flag properly (he's an ex-Marine), but he's the only one who flies one regularly.

I don't get this whole "a guest here can't complain" stuff. I was once taken to task (screamed at, really) by a British taxi driver who was contemptuous of me traveling around UK. Apparently I wasn't staying in places long enough to suit him. He and I were alone in the cab and he had asked me my itinerary; I found it quite rude that he castigated me with his "You Americans have no culture, and don't appreciate history; Americans, too much money and not enough sense" lecture. So, I stiffed him. I hope I really ticked him off.

You, sadly, had no such recourse, but have stumbled onto this drunk woman's nearest relative (that being cisco). Have at it, cisco, show the OP that famous, easy-going American talent for tolerance. You do us proud.

[Carol Stream]

I live in Chicago, too, and I disagree. Walk down the street in any residential neighborhood on any given day and you will see a considerable number of flags flying from porches.

And I disagree with your characterization. I walked my block today, and out of 35 houses, there was one flag. Less than 3%. How is that a "considerable number", or a "very large proportion", or even "10%', as has been claimed?

What I don't get is why people are making shit up.

[Broomstick]

:rolleyes: Fuck you, read what I wrote. Your posts in this thread are far more dishonest than me leaving out the negatives when someone asks me about their homeland. Did you tell your grandma her crust tastes like shit when she baked you an apple pie?
If grandma screwed up baking an apple pie I'd say "Grandma, this pie didn't come out right, it tastes bad" rather than choke it down then have to puke it back up later. I come from a family that values honesty. I was taught that lying by omission is every bit as much of a lie as a deliberate, bald-faced falsehood.

If I ask someone's opinion I don't want a "polite" falsehood, I want to know what they actually think. Do you you understand this? Your "polite" evasions are falsehoods, that is, they are lies. I would lie to save a life, or lie to avoid actual danger, but neither exception applied in this case. The Rude Butt-In Lady was just that - rude. And a few other things.

I was also taught to accept criticism with a grain of salt, but to listen to it. I might disagree with a criticism, but knowing what others think is important to maintaining a realistic view of the world, rather than one built on falsehoods (polite or otherwise).

[Dead Badger]

We're just delicate, you and I. The little things make us so...unsettled. Le sigh.A sensitive soul you are indeed, dear heart. Again, though, while I feel almost boorish in reminding you, I have to point out that the OP was asked for her opinion, and a not particularly contentious one it was to boot. It does strike me as strange that you're accusing the OP of being oversensitive though, when you yourself are so discomfited by the rather mild word "uncomfortable". It's all very confusing, I must admit. Perhaps a bit of nationalistic fervour makes everything clear.

eleanorigby, I'm currently reading a book called "The Book of Dave" by Will Self, which is about a demented, misogynistic cabbie who writes a book which, a couple of hundred years later (and after a global warming-instigated inundation), is discovered by post-diluvian people and turned in to a national religion. I think you might like it; it's really quite funny (and might explain even more about your horrible cab ride than was already obvious). That said, large swathes of it might make no sense to anyone other than a Londoner, so take this recommendation with a pinch of salt.

[Cisco]

cisco, I'm looking at you--go wave a flag somewhere and watch you don't poke someone's eye out with it). The woman in the bar was rude to you, yes. She was also drunk, and eavesdropping, and an idiot. You'll meet a lot of those if you stick around the states. She was wrong to pick a fight with you. You were wrong to rise to her bait.

You, sadly, had no such recourse, but have stumbled onto this drunk woman's nearest relative (that being cisco). Have at it, cisco, show the OP that famous, easy-going American talent for tolerance. You do us proud.
Wow, you're kidding, right? You are kidding. Please tell me you're kidding. Right? Right?

Can someone chime in to say they read and understood any of my posts, like oh, say, #32? Because I'm seriously starting to lose faith in the reading comprehension skills of a lot of SDMB members.

[Cisco]

If grandma screwed up baking an apple pie I'd say "Grandma, this pie didn't come out right, it tastes bad"Well, I wouldn't. You can't see that this is a perfectly normal variation in our personalities and views? You think it makes me a liar? You're out of line.

[eleanorigby]

Wow, you're kidding, right? You are kidding. Please tell me you're kidding. Right? Right?

Can someone chime in to say they read and understood any of my posts, like oh, say, #32? Because I'm seriously starting to lose faith in the reading comprehension skills of a lot of SDMB members.


I took your position from your first page posts. Here's an example:


In my world, a bar conversation is not private, and you don't talk shit when you're the new kid. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Did you think that calling names(I believe that was "limey pussy") and being shrill (all of your posts, even the one where you talk about a favorite book of yours--post #32) required more elucidation? Are you going to try to say that your point is somehow finely nuanced?

Go on, pull the other one. If you happened to fine tune your castigation on page 3, I missed it. It's not interesting enough to follow, frankly.

I might read that book, db.

[Miller]

Wow, you're kidding, right? You are kidding. Please tell me you're kidding. Right? Right?

Can someone chime in to say they read and understood any of my posts, like oh, say, #32? Because I'm seriously starting to lose faith in the reading comprehension skills of a lot of SDMB members.

I tend to think that my reading comprehension is pretty good, and what I'm getting from your posts in this thread is mostly, "Hey, everyone! I've decided to suddenly act like a gigantic cunt for no good reason! Whee!" If you had some other, subtler point, I'm afraid I've missed it.

[Cisco]

I took your position from your first two posts. Did you think that calling names and being shrill required more elucidation? Are you going to try to say that your point is somehow finely nuanced?

Go on, pull the other one.

I might read that book, db.
My first post I basically said stop whining, because the OP was dramatic and annoying and did not elicit the sympathy from me that it was obviously attempting to. He/she replied with "fuck you". If you keep reading, as is customary to do before replying, you might understand that I'm not a flag jockey or whatever the hell you erroneously think I am.

[Cisco]

I tend to think that my reading comprehension is pretty good, and what I'm getting from your posts in this thread is mostly, "Hey, everyone! I've decided to suddenly act like a gigantic cunt for no good reason! Whee!" If you had some other, subtler point, I'm afraid I've missed it.
Fair enough, but did you get "flag waver" out of it?

[Broomstick]

If grandma screwed up baking an apple pie I'd say "Grandma, this pie didn't come out right, it tastes bad"
Well, I wouldn't.
Yes. That was my point. You wouldn't tell her the truth. In other words, you would lie either by commission ("Grandma, that was delicious!") or by omission (by saying nothing). People who lie are liars. Why are you having trouble with this?

You can't see that this is a perfectly normal variation in our personalities and views?
You can't see that I was raised in a family culture with a high standard of what is considered "honest" and you do not meet that standard?

You think it makes me a liar? You're out of line.
I don't think it makes you a liar, I know it makes you a liar. YOU'RE out of line if you think the world should adjust itself to your standard, which, where I come from, is unacceptably low on the truth meter.

[Cisco]

Yes. That was my point. You wouldn't tell her the truth. In other words, you would lie either by commission ("Grandma, that was delicious!") or by omission (by saying nothing). People who lie are liars. Why are you having trouble with this?


You can't see that I was raised in a family culture with a high standard of what is considered "honest" and you do not meet that standard?


I don't think it makes you a liar, I know it makes you a liar. YOU'RE out of line if you think the world should adjust itself to your standard, which, where I come from, is unacceptably low on the truth meter.
:confused: What the fuck? You're an intolerant bitch. You know what? Fuck you. You don't meet my standards of politeness. Cunt.

[put down the sabre]

OK I'm going to bow out from this one now, tomorrow I return from whence I came.

Cisco, you are a cunt.

To those of you who agreed with me on this thread, or honestly disagreed - thank you. To those of you of Cisco's ilk, who accused me of lying or otherwise engaged in ad hominem, fuck you.

Oh and to those who argue that 'limey pussy' can't be racist "because British isn't a race", are you the same literal-minded cretins (it really is a great word isn't it!) who argue that Arabs can't be anti-Semitic?

pdts

[Miller]

Fair enough, but did you get "flag waver" out of it?

Yes, overwhelmingly. Post 32 notwithstanding. If I may venture a metaphor, your posts in this thread have read something like this:

"I hate oranges."

"Oranges are really disgusting."

"Not only do I hate oranges, I hate people who like oranges, too."

"Actually, oranges are quite tasty."

"Oranges are the most disgusting blight on a fruit orchard since the serpent got Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden."

Which is to say, the contents of post 32 are difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile with the rest of your posts to this thread, which are singularly jingoistic and narrow minded. And more than a little embarassing, as you seem to be laboring under the titanic misapprehension that you are making a good showing of yourself in this thread. If you're at all open to well-intentioned advice, please, stop posting, turn off the computer, and go lie down in a darkened room, because you are doing yourself no favors by continuing in this vein.

[Broomstick]

:confused: What the fuck? You're an intolerant bitch.
At times, yes, I can be. In particular, I am intolerant of liars (among others) and bigots (see "limey pussy"). Being called nasty names does not make me convert to your viewpoint, nor does it make me run for the hills to hide.

You know what? Fuck you. You don't meet my standards of politeness.
Since your definition of "polite" includes dishonesty that bothers me not at all.

Cunt.
Yes. I own one. Your point is...?

I do wonder about someone who can proceed "standards of politeness" with "fuck you" and follow it up with "cunt"...

[Carol Stream]

OK I'm going to bow out from this one now, tomorrow I return from whence I came.
pdts

Don't go yet. You haven't explained how <3% is a "very large proportion". I'll wait.

[Odesio]

You're all a bunch of cunts you filthy motherfuckers!

Damn, that was fun!


Marc

[Cisco]

At times, yes, I can be. In particular, I am intolerant of liars (among others) and bigots (see "limey pussy"). Being called nasty names does not make me convert to your viewpoint, nor does it make me run for the hills to hide.


Since your definition of "polite" includes dishonesty that bothers me not at all.


Yes. I own one. Your point is...?

I do wonder about someone who can proceed "standards of politeness" with "fuck you" and follow it up with "cunt"...
:rolleyes: Kiss my ass. Politeness goes out the window when you call me a liar. If "limey pussy" really got your goat - Jesus, I've never heard "limey" used in anger - it's a fucking joke of a word. Get over it. None of my posts towards pdts were made in anger. You have made me angry. Look in a fucking mirror before you post next time.

And if you told my grandma her pie sucked I'd kick you in the balls you hag.
Yes, overwhelmingly. Post 32 notwithstanding. If I may venture a metaphor, your posts in this thread have read something like this:

"I hate oranges."

"Oranges are really disgusting."

"Not only do I hate oranges, I hate people who like oranges, too."

"Actually, oranges are quite tasty."

"Oranges are the most disgusting blight on a fruit orchard since the serpent got Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden."

Which is to say, the contents of post 32 are difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile with the rest of your posts to this thread, which are singularly jingoistic and narrow minded. And more than a little embarassing, as you seem to be laboring under the titanic misapprehension that you are making a good showing of yourself in this thread. If you're at all open to well-intentioned advice, please, stop posting, turn off the computer, and go lie down in a darkened room, because you are doing yourself no favors by continuing in this vein.Well, I'm sorry you've misinterpreted me, then. And save your patronizing "go lie down in a darkened room" shit. I have a very robust life outside of the SDMB.

[Omegaman]

My first post I basically said stop whining, because the OP was dramatic and annoying and did not elicit the sympathy from me that it was obviously attempting to. He/she replied with "fuck you". If you keep reading, as is customary to do before replying, you might understand that I'm not a flag jockey or whatever the hell you erroneously think I am.

Flag jockey? You have got to be shitting me. I don't know whether to bust a nut laughing or call you an asshole. I'll go for the laughs. :D

[Rubystreak]

Don't go yet. You haven't explained how <3% is a "very large proportion". I'll wait.

Oh Carol? The OP can wait while you apologize for talking out your ass. (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/525/who-flies-the-flag-not-always-who-you-might-think) That's 62% of Americans who said they display a flag at home, work, or on their car, from a Pew Research Center study. Even if only 1/3 of those flags are flown at home, that's a fuck of a lot more than 3%. Unless you can offer a better cite?

[Miller]

:rolleyes: Kiss my ass. Politeness goes out the window when you call me a liar. If "limey pussy" really got your goat - Jesus, I've never heard "limey" used in anger - it's a fucking joke of a word. Get over it. None of my posts towards pdts were made in anger. You have made me angry. Look in a fucking mirror before you post next time.

Which is funny, because I think most people would be hard pressed to discern the difference in tone between your posts to Broomstick, and your posts to put down the saber.

Well, I'm sorry you've misinterpreted me, then. And save your patronizing "go lie down in a darkened room" shit. I have a very robust life outside of the SDMB.

Fantastic. Go out and do something robust, then. Just please, stop posting in this thread, before you make yourself look like even more of an ass than you already have.

[Cisco]

Which is funny, because I think most people would be hard pressed to discern the difference in tone between your posts to Broomstick, and your posts to put down the saber.

Well, for one, I don't believe I've used any instantly recognizable comedic terms like limey, tosser, or the "waa" bit in my posts towards Broomstick.

[Miller]

You did threaten to kick a woman in the balls. Not exactly high comedy, but then, neither is "limey pussy."

[Cisco]

You did threaten to kick a woman in the balls. Not exactly high comedy, but then, neither is "limey pussy."
Touché.

[fisha]

You did threaten to kick a woman in the balls. Not exactly high comedy, but then, neither is "limey pussy."

Key Lime Pie?

[InLucemEdita]

OK I'm going to bow out from this one now,

For the third time?

Oh and to those who argue that 'limey pussy' can't be racist "because British isn't a race", are you the same literal-minded cretins (it really is a great word isn't it!) who argue that Arabs can't be anti-Semitic?

You do like Latin, don't you...

How about "Non sequitor"?

That's Latin for "Suck my cock, you Cheap Limey Whore."

Ta.

[DCTrekkie]

And I disagree with your characterization. I walked my block today, and out of 35 houses, there was one flag. Less than 3%. How is that a "considerable number", or a "very large proportion", or even "10%', as has been claimed?

What I don't get is why people are making shit up.
Um, this may sound stupid, but do you think perhaps that, whilst your area has very few flags out, other areas of the US may have lots. Perhaps my map is out of date, but I believe there's more than one city in America. Also, as other people have said, there doesn't have to be a huge percentage of flags, it's just that there are more than in most European countries. The only time I really see flags over here, apart from on official buildings, is when there's a sporting event going on. The rest of the time it seems like <1%.

[E-Sabbath]

You know, not only do I see a load and a half of Irish flags, I see a lot of Italian flags flying. Maybe there's more to it than just patriotism.

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

How about "Non sequitor"?


Where's the non-sequitor?

[Malacandra]

For the third time?

You do like Latin, don't you...

How about "Non sequitor"?

That's Latin for "Suck my cock, you Cheap Limey Whore."

Ta.
No it isn't.

It wouldn't be even if you'd spelled it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur) correctly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ass_%28animal%29). All very well tossing around Latin tags to make yourself look learned, but I for one make it a rule never to use any deponent verb I can't conjugate. :p

[Omegaman]

snip\\ to use any deponent verb I can't conjugate// snip

Are you coming on to me? ;)

[Malacandra]

Are you coming on to me? ;)
I didn't even know you were gay. I'm not. Perhaps we should discuss this like reasonable men. :)

[Broomstick]

:rolleyes: Kiss my ass. Politeness goes out the window when you call me a liar.
The truth hurts, doesn't it?

If "limey pussy" really got your goat - Jesus, I've never heard "limey" used in anger - it's a fucking joke of a word.
I, personally, did not take offense but the person you referred to by that term was offended. I'm not sure if the "limey" or the "pussy" part was most offensive, but while you might have thought it was funny apparently others did not.

And if you told my grandma her pie sucked I'd kick you in the balls you hag.
First of all, I did NOT say I'd tell grandma her pie "sucked", I'd tell her the truth if it did not taste right or tasted bad. There is a difference between being truthful and being cruel, one you apparently are unable to discern.

You don't seem to have a very strong grip on anatomy, either, as you are threatening to kick me in organs I don't possess.

Really, you should get out of the house more so perhaps you'd understand that other people have different views of the world.

[Malacandra]

But it's all dark, warm and safe down in the cellar!

[Ludovic]

Um, this may sound stupid, but do you think perhaps that, whilst your area has very few flags out, other areas of the US may have lots. Perhaps my map is out of date, but I believe there's more than one city in America. Also, as other people have said, there doesn't have to be a huge percentage of flags, it's just that there are more than in most European countries. The only time I really see flags over here, apart from on official buildings, is when there's a sporting event going on. The rest of the time it seems like <1%.Or, 60% of Americans say they show a flag in surveys, but only <10% really do :)

[Omegaman]

You really should lighten up a shade, Cisco. There are a lot of English here that I respect and I'm sure you do too.

[Omegaman]

But it's all dark, warm and safe down in the cellar!

Only because mom and dad are upstairs writing the checks for the monthly bills?

I should be ashamed of myself. I have got to stop cracking wise.

[Grossbottom]

You know, not only do I see a load and a half of Irish flags, I see a lot of Italian flags flying. Maybe there's more to it than just patriotism.
The large British expat population where I live seems virtually compelled to slap a Union Jack on the backs of their cars. I guess they manage to overcome their natural, involuntary discomfort and genuine concern with flags causing the inevitable rise of nazism here in the United States. Very mature of them to play along with us like that.

[E-Sabbath]

Might have something to do with the mixed nationalism of Americans. Might have something to do with the nature of the individual home and front lawn tradition. Might have something to do with aping the 'upper classes'. Might have something to do with the 1950s Red Scare happening at the same time we suburbanized, giving the mental image of the perfect white picket fence home having a flag out front.

[Cisco]

Really, you should get out of the house more so perhaps you'd understand that other people have different views of the world.
Coming from the person who responded to this: You can't see that this is a perfectly normal variation in our personalities and views? You think it makes me a liar? You're out of line. with this: You can't see that I was raised in a family culture with a high standard of what is considered "honest" and you do not meet that standard? I don't think it makes you a liar, I know it makes you a liar. YOU'RE out of line if you think the world should adjust itself to your standard, which, where I come from, is unacceptably low on the truth meter. you'll excuse me that all I have to say is this: :rolleyes:.

[InLucemEdita]

No it isn't.

It wouldn't be even if you'd spelled it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur) correctly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ass_%28animal%29). All very well tossing around Latin tags to make yourself look learned, but I for one make it a rule never to use any deponent verb I can't conjugate. :p

Did I spell "cock" correctly?

I may not have used it correctly either. I'm not sure about the hyphen rules in particular.

Is "Malacandra is a cock-munch." proper usage?

[InLucemEdita]

Where's the non-sequitor?

Watch out Capt. Ridley the spelling police will be after you.

The non-sequitur is right here:

Oh and to those who argue that 'limey pussy' can't be racist "because British isn't a race", are you the same literal-minded cretins ... who argue that Arabs can't be anti-Semitic?

Whether or not a word is racist has nothing to do with whether or not a people can be self-hating. If you can't see the flawed logic here, we have nothing to discuss.

[Omegaman]

Did I spell "cock" correctly?

I may not have used it correctly either. I'm not sure about the hyphen rules in particular.

Is "Malacandra is a cock-munch." proper usage?

You guys and your big words.


This thread is entertaining on so many levels.

Is PDTS back yet?

[Miller]

Whether or not a word is racist has nothing to do with whether or not a people can be self-hating. If you can't see the flawed logic here, we have nothing to discuss.

No, the logic there works fine. It helps if you can actually understand what the sentence means, though. Here's a hint: "self-hating" doesn't enter into it.

[Malacandra]

Did I spell "cock" correctly?

I may not have used it correctly either. I'm not sure about the hyphen rules in particular.

Is "Malacandra is a cock-munch." proper usage?

Most people wouldn't find it necessary to put the period inside the quotation marks in this context, but I'm not sure whether that's a grammatical point or just a question of style, in which case de gustibus non est disputandem, as I'm sure you'd be the first to agree. For the rest, the phrase is proper usage as far as I'm concerned, merely false to facts. I'll let someone else take you to task over using homophobic insults - that's not a fight that exercises me enough to get into.

Now don't snivel just because you wanted to look all learned and shit by talking about non sequiturs and ended up with your arse hanging out of your trousers. It's hardly my fault. :p

[InLucemEdita]

Most people wouldn't find it necessary to put the period inside the quotation marks in this context, but I'm not sure whether that's a grammatical point or just a question of style, in which case de gustibus non est disputandem, as I'm sure you'd be the first to agree. For the rest, the phrase is proper usage as far as I'm concerned, merely false to facts. I'll let someone else take you to task over using homophobic insults - that's not a fight that exercises me enough to get into.

Now don't snivel just because you wanted to look all learned and shit by talking about non sequiturs and ended up with your arse hanging out of your trousers. It's hardly my fault. :p

Why do you perceive "cock-munch" as homophobic?

And, you're right, I won't be able to look myself in the mirror because of a spelling error. Thank goodness you were here to correct me. Your life has meaning.

[villa]

That's Latin for "Suck my cock, you Cheap Limey Whore."


Real classy there.

[InLucemEdita]

No, the logic there works fine. It helps if you can actually understand what the sentence means, though. Here's a hint: "self-hating" doesn't enter into it.

No. It doesn't.

Although the issue is way off topic, part of her flawed statement is obviously:

Arabs can't be Anti-Semitic.
Arabs can't be Anti-Semitic because Arabs are a Semitic people.
Arabs can't hate Semitic peoples because they are a Semitic people.
Arabs can't be self-hating.

This is a flawed argument in and of itself given the definition of anti-Semitism, but it does involve "self-hating". Asshole.

But the issue isn't the flaw in this argument. The issue is that this flawed argument has nothing to do with whether or not "Limey" is racist. The Arab/anti-semite argument hinges on someone purposefully misconstruing the definition of anti-semite. There is no definition of "Limey" that is racist. No definition is being ignored or altered in its usage.

So, one doesn't follow from the other, and the logic is flawed.

And you're still an Asshole.

[Really Not All That Bright]

And you're still an Asshole.
You don't have to capitalize asshole, you know.

[InLucemEdita]

Real classy there.

Sorry, you came to the pit for erudite conversation?

Fuck off.

[InLucemEdita]

You don't have to capitalize asshole, you know.

Don't have to. Choose to.

[villa]

No, but you people prove day in day out that one can post here without being a classless little toerag. You showed that you can't.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Sorry, you came to the pit for erudite conversation?

Fuck off.
You've been a member for four years and posted ~180 times... and you chose this conversation to break your silence?

[InLucemEdita]

No, but you people prove day in day out that one can post here without being a classless little toerag. You showed that you can't.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

Care to add something of substance then?

Or just came to bitch about the quality of the thread? Or my postings in particular?
I'm sure everyone is thrilled to hear your opinion of MEEEE!
Because I'm so important to you.

[Miller]

No. It doesn't.

Although the issue is way off topic, part of her flawed statement is obviously:

Arabs can't be Anti-Semitic.
Arabs can't be Anti-Semitic because Arabs are a Semitic people.
Arabs can't hate Semitic peoples because they are a Semitic people.
Arabs can't be self-hating.

This is a flawed argument in and of itself given the definition of anti-Semitism, but it does involve "self-hating". Asshole.

But the issue isn't the flaw in this argument. The issue is that this flawed argument has nothing to do with whether or not "Limey" is racist. The Arab/anti-semite argument hinges on someone purposefully misconstruing the definition of anti-semite. There is no definition of "Limey" that is racist. No definition is being ignored or altered in its usage.

So, one doesn't follow from the other, and the logic is flawed.

And you're still an Asshole.

Actually, that's a pretty good point.

[Broomstick]

Cisco, what I find baffling is how you continually value "polite" lies over honest truth, then get vicious when it's pointed out that other people have different values.

Your definition of politeness - lie to avoid any negative at all, even when you are asked for a genuine opinion - I find offensive. Offensive to the point I don't give a flying fuck whether you approve or not, or whether or not you call me nasty names. If you'd prefer to lie than tell me the truth when I ask for the truth then you are, by my standards, an untrustworthy person. Should we meet face-to-face I will know that I can trust nothing you say to be the truth and I'd much rather NOT interact with such untrustworthy liars if I can help it at all.

In other words - fuck off. I don't give a shit about you. Why should I? I can't trust you to speak the truth.

[villa]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

Care to add something of substance then?

Or just came to bitch about the quality of the thread? Or my postings in particular?
I'm sure everyone is thrilled to hear your opinion of MEEEE!
Because I'm so important to you.

Try reading the thread. I was posting in it while you were working out what swear words would make you look big and clever, before you came in and decided you thought the OP was lying.

[Cisco]

Cisco, what I find baffling is how you continually value "polite" lies over honest truth, then get vicious when it's pointed out that other people have different values.

Your definition of politeness - lie to avoid any negative at all, even when you are asked for a genuine opinion - I find offensive. Offensive to the point I don't give a flying fuck whether you approve or not, or whether or not you call me nasty names. If you'd prefer to lie than tell me the truth when I ask for the truth then you are, by my standards, an untrustworthy person. Should we meet face-to-face I will know that I can trust nothing you say to be the truth and I'd much rather NOT interact with such untrustworthy liars if I can help it at all.

In other words - fuck off. I don't give a shit about you. Why should I? I can't trust you to speak the truth.
Shrieking hag. I repeat: your posts misrepresenting my views in this thread are far more dishonest than my views regarding etiquette. Which is fucking typical, because I've found in life that most people who are overly paranoid about being lied to are the worst liars themselves.