Shodan, this is a disgusting attitude

[smiling bandit]

Shodan, I'm more or less conservative. We see eye to eye on many issues or at least agree vaguely. But in this (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=468740) thread on Ted Kennedy, you've made a gigantic ass out of yourself. You don't have to like the man or his family to not be disgustingly pleased that he's sick.

I don't really like Ted Kennedy. Frankly, the family as a whole (if not all individuals) strikes me as self-absorbed, even narcistic, alchoholic elitists who blindly follow an ideology which gets them votes and power while trading on the name of a better man.

But I'm not happy he's sick, particularly with such an illness. I hope he recovers, or at least passes gracefully and grently (unfortunately, these diagnosis is not very optimistic). I'm not going to fling around vague accusations about the driving thing since it's over decades ago. it's a little late and unimportant now.

I must say that I'm surprised and disgusted by your actions.

[Contrapuntal]

Yeah, that was pretty out of line. Not his finest moment.

[Autolycus]

Yeah, that was pretty shit-tastic thread behavior IMO.

(woah... I didn't read Contrapuntal's post before making this one. Eery.)

[Liberal]

Shodan. Dude. What the fuck.

[Captain Amazing]

Not that I have a dog in this fight, but if Shodan really dislikes Ted Kennedy, why not be happy he's got a terminal illness?

[Grossbottom]

I am outraged, it's outrageous

[elucidator]

He's the conservative gadfly who pricks the hypocrisy of the liberal elitists. Maybe "prick" isn't the exact word. On second thought, yeah, it is.

[Euphonious Polemic]

Hey, you know that birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim and Shodan has to hate "lefties" It's just the natural order of the universe.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

Open the dictionary to "graceless" and there's Shodan.

[descamisado]

. . . . I must say that I'm surprised . . . You are?

[Lightnin']

I've been trying to figure out for, well, years now, why exactly no mod has called Shodan on his trollish behavior. A simple search for his name will reveal that most of his contributions to a thread are nothing more than one liners designed to elicit an aggressive response. He rarely mentions his views on a given subject (because then he'd have to defend his views), but instead just makes fun of opinions held by others (usually the dreaded "Usual Suspects" and/or liberals). In what way is that not the behavior of a troll?

Seriously, does he ever add anything of substance with his drive-by threadshits?

[BrainGlutton]

In all fairness, if Dick Cheney were in that hospital bed I would, like every good and decent American, be praying to Og to increase his suffering and yet hasten his end.

But I don't know as I'd post about it.

[Merhouse]

In all fairness, if Dick Cheney were in that hospital bed I would, like every good and decent American, be praying to Og to increase his suffering and yet hasten his end.

But I don't know as I'd post about it.

Sadly, that puts it all in some perspective. But you're right, I wouldn't post about it, either.

[ArizonaTeach]

I hope none of the people horrified posted in this thread. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=420947)

For the record, not a Kennedy fan, but yeah, wouldn't see a need to be mean about it. Man served (serves) his country the way he thought (thinks) best, and I can respect that.

[Orbifold]

Not that I have a dog in this fight, but if Shodan really dislikes Ted Kennedy, why not be happy he's got a terminal illness?

...basic human decency?

...a recognition that some things are more important than the petty emotional satisfaction wrung from someone else's suffering?

...a desire not to be a selfish asshole?

This really isn't that complicated.

I hope none of the people horrified posted in this thread.

What is with the stupid knee-jerk urge to go straight for the bullshit tu quoque argument?

[Sarahfeena]

In all fairness, if Dick Cheney were in that hospital bed I would, like every good and decent American, be praying to Og to increase his suffering and yet hasten his end.

But I don't know as I'd post about it.Aw, sure you would. :)

In all seriousness, if Shodan believes Ted Kennedy to be a murderer, is he still obligated to respect the man's life, feel sorry about his illness, and eventually mourn his death? ETA: In particular, a murderer who he may believe has cravenly gotten away with the crime? Who has lived a better life than the vast majority of us, rich and highly respected? Who seems completely unrepentant and unwilling to accept responsibility for his actions? This he has to respect?

[Merijeek]

Aw, sure you would. :)

In all seriousness, if Shodan believes Ted Kennedy to be a murderer, is he still obligated to respect the man's life, feel sorry about his illness, and eventually mourn his death?

So, we heartless Lefties can do a guilt-free happy dance once Shodan kicks it, then?

-Joe

[elucidator]

.....I hope none of the people horrified posted in this thread....

I can clearly see your point there, both Falwell and Kennedy spent a lifetime drooling poisonous slime about vulnerable and harmless minorities! Why, they're practically identical in their behavior! Like when Kennedy tried to blame the gay people and feminists for 9/11...oh, wait, that was Falwell? See, even I get them mixed up!

[Sarahfeena]

So, we heartless Lefties can do a guilt-free happy dance once Shodan kicks it, then?

-JoeI don't know...do you believe him to be a murderer?

[What Exit?]

In all fairness, if Dick Cheney were in that hospital bed I would, like every good and decent American, be praying to Og to increase his suffering and yet hasten his end.

But I don't know as I'd post about it.
You are a better man than I. I would start a thread in MPSIMS to celebrate it. I just would not jump into a condolences thread to celebrate. Hell I don't really have any liking for Ted, but I still think Shodan pick the wrong place to drop his load.

Jim

[Miller]

Aw, sure you would. :)

Well, maybe. But not seven posts! Three, maybe four, tops.

[What Exit?]

I hope none of the people horrified posted in this thread. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=420947)

For the record, not a Kennedy fan, but yeah, wouldn't see a need to be mean about it. Man served (serves) his country the way he thought (thinks) best, and I can respect that.
Isn't that thread in the pit? Is it really the same thing?

[samclem]

Class is one of those hard to define things. You know it when you see it. You know someone doesn't have it when you see it.

I seen it.

[guizot]

In all fairness, if Dick Cheney were in that hospital bed I would, like every good and decent American, be praying to Og to increase his suffering and yet hasten his end.

But I don't know as I'd post about it.Well, your honesty is to be admired. I personally don't see much point in hoping physical suffering on someone who will no longer be a relevant political force. Even Pinochet.

But I do think that Pinochet should have some kind of official legal reckoning--it's the history books that matter most, to me. The Kennedys have had their faults, but they haven't caused the kind of suffering that Pinochet has (unless you believe that John F. Kennedy was responsible for the Vietnam war, which is conceivably debatable.)

[ArizonaTeach]

What is with the stupid knee-jerk urge to go straight for the bullshit tu quoque argument?Are you one of the hypocrites? Then don't worry about it.

Isn't that thread in the pit? Is it really the same thing?So Orbifold's plea for basic human decency doesn't count if it's in the pit?

Like I said, I agree that there's no reason to be mean to Kennedy. But let's be realistic - for some people this is a case of IOKIYAD (or R, alternately, of course, not denying that).

[Orbifold]

In all seriousness, if Shodan believes Ted Kennedy to be a murderer, is he still obligated to respect the man's life, feel sorry about his illness, and eventually mourn his death?

That's the funny thing about the moral high ground. It's where you're actually supposed to be.

YES, respect the man's life. YES, feel sorry about his illness. YES, mourn his death. Because life is suffering and some deaths, hell most of them, are just miserable ways to die, and however much you dislike the man and whatever bullshit conspiracy theories you believe that doesn't change what is the right and decent thing for YOU to do. Taking satisfaction from a man's death is wrong, even if it makes you feel good, so suck it up and do the right thing.

[Orbifold]

Are you one of the hypocrites? Then don't worry about it.

Oh goody, I pass your little test. I get...what? Points? A cookie? I handwritten certificate from ArizonaTeach, saying that I have official permission to believe that taking satisfaction in another man's suffering is wrong?

Be still my fluttering heart.

[ArizonaTeach]

Oh goody, I pass your little test. I get...what? Points? A cookie? I handwritten certificate from ArizonaTeach, saying that I have official permission to believe that taking satisfaction in another man's suffering is wrong?

Be still my fluttering heart.Wow, you really are sensitive. I'll make sure the eggshells are still intact when you walk into a thread. :rolleyes:

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

I really don't see the issue here. Having a deep and visceral hatred for opposing politicos is just how we operate in this country. Happily, the most visible politicians are usually the sort of people that it's fine to celebrate their removal from this earth.
It's a natural impulse, and it's not worth a pitting. You feel disgusted at Shodan when he cackles over the death of a drunken murderer, and he can feel disgusted at you when you get your jollies off when a right-wing piece of shit craps out.

[Mtgman]

Aw, sure you would. :)

In all seriousness, if Shodan believes Ted Kennedy to be a murderer, is he still obligated to respect the man's life, feel sorry about his illness, and eventually mourn his death? ETA: In particular, a murderer who he may believe has cravenly gotten away with the crime? Who has lived a better life than the vast majority of us, rich and highly respected? Who seems completely unrepentant and unwilling to accept responsibility for his actions? This he has to respect?WWJD?

Enjoy,
Steven

[What Exit?]

So Orbifold's plea for basic human decency doesn't count if it's in the pit?

Like I said, I agree that there's no reason to be mean to Kennedy. But let's be realistic - for some people this is a case of IOKIYAD (or R, alternately, of course, not denying that).
Well, I already admitted I am not a better man. I would be one of the ones verbally dancing on Cheney's grave. I think Shodan should feel free to express his satisfaction in Ted Kennedy's problems, he just should have chosen a more appropriate location, maybe he should have started a thread to do so.

[descamisado]

Well, your honesty is to be admired. I personally don't see much point in hoping physical suffering on someone who will no longer be a relevant political force. Even Pinochet.

But I do think that Pinochet should have some kind of official legal reckoning--it's the history books that matter most, to me. The Kennedys have had their faults, but they haven't caused the kind of suffering that Pinochet has (unless you believe that John F. Kennedy was responsible for the Vietnam war, which is conceivably debatable.)But, but, what about Hitler!?!?*







* ;) (check you PMs)

[Sarahfeena]

WWJD?

Enjoy,
StevenThe Jesus I believe in expects people to be repentant before he forgives them.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

The Jesus I believe in expects people to be repentant before he forgives them.
Out of curiosity, what is it Jesus said that makes you believe that he has such an expectation? As a follow-up, what is it Jesus said that makes you believe he would approve of Shodan's attitude?

Daniel

[Charogne]

The Jesus you claim to believe in MIGHT want you to check some of that pride in your tone at the Pearly Gate. Just sayin'

[Orbifold]

Wow, you really are sensitive. I'll make sure the eggshells are still intact when you walk into a thread. :rolleyes:

Sensitive? No. Sick of bullshit, perhaps. Sick of watching things like one man's illness get turned into a political football just so people can score points for their tribe.

But sensitive? Don't flatter yourself, I don't care that much about you.

[ArizonaTeach]

Sensitive? No. Sick of bullshit, perhaps. Sick of watching things like one man's illness get turned into a political football just so people can score points for their tribe.

But sensitive? Don't flatter yourself, I don't care that much about you.What, no basic human decency from you? I care you about you. I care so much it hurts. Because I'm that kind of guy, you know? The kind who cares. I care so much I feel the need to tell other people how much they should care, or not care, and what they should care about.

Eh, but I digress. You can respond and have the last word. I'll go back to tsk tsking Shodan.

[Weirddave]

I will confess that my thoughts when they announced this on the radio were "Huh. How ironic. America's cancer has a tumor", but those thoughts were directed towards Kennedy the politician and all of the damage that he's done to this country over the years, Kennedy the man has my thoughts and prayers that his treatment be successful and his remaining life (1 year or 10) be as coherent and pain free as possible.

[Captain Amazing]

...basic human decency?

How is it basic human decency to pretend to be sorry that someone you hate is dying?

[Sarahfeena]

Out of curiosity, what is it Jesus said that makes you believe that he has such an expectation? As a follow-up, what is it Jesus said that makes you believe he would approve of Shodan's attitude?


DanielOh, geez, I have no interest in getting into a theological argument. I wasn't the one who brought Jesus into the conversation, and I have no idea if Shodan believes in God the same way I do. My point is that Shodan is under no obligation to forgive Ted Kennedy for anything, especially since Mr. Kennedy has not indicated to the public that he's sorry for any wrong he might have committed.

[smiling bandit]

Hate does nothing but poison the hearts of the people who hold it. Even for the worst humans imaginable, one should never hate, never rejoice in suffering, never wish them worse.

My point is that Shodan is under no obligation to forgive Ted Kennedy for anything, especially since Mr. Kennedy has not indicated to the public that he's sorry for any wrong he might have committed.

I do. And I also believe Shodan is under a moral obligation not to carry a grudge.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Oh, geez, I have no interest in getting into a theological argument.
My first question was actually genuine (the second, I admit, was pretty combative). I'm not a Christian, nor have I been in a long time, so I certainly admit that there may be a passage in which Jesus reserves forgiveness for those who repent; I was and am genuinely curious which passage that is. If someone else knows the passage, I'd be interested in hearing it, too.

The second question, of course, points out the idea that such vindictiveness is like the pharisees and the harlot.

Daniel

[Sarahfeena]

The Jesus you claim to believe in MIGHT want you to check some of that pride in your tone at the Pearly Gate. Just sayin'Are you kidding me? I'm a Catholic...I know I'm lower than dirt.

[Miller]

The Jesus I believe in expects people to be repentant before he forgives them.

"Forgive them, father, for they know not what they do."

I don't recall that particular quote being preceded by a bunch of Romans repenting, but then, I'm not a Christian, so what do I know?

[Omegaman]

Seems to me Shodan was attempting to make light of the senators predicament and it just kind of snowballed. Surely not his finest hour, but you can see he later changed his mind, although he did doll it up a bit. Mr. Kennedy has led a long and prosperous life, I personally don't agree with all his policies but I've never lived in his district either. His family are the primary concern as they will be left behind to mourn his loss. Everyone can say they miss him but only the family knows the true sorrow of his eminent departure.

[kaylasdad99]

My first question was actually genuine (the second, I admit, was pretty combative). I'm not a Christian, nor have I been in a long time, so I certainly admit that there may be a passage in which Jesus reserves forgiveness for those who repent; I was and am genuinely curious which passage that is. If someone else knows the passage, I'd be interested in hearing it, too.

The second question, of course, points out the idea that such vindictiveness is like the pharisees and the harlot.

DanielThe sacrament of reconciliation (going to confession), IIRC, is premised on the understanding that the absolution of the priest is only valid if the penitent is sincerely repentant.

That said, I couldn't quote you chapter and verse where Jesus himself placed that restriction on the right of his disciples to dispense absolution. Maybe he said it; maybe he didn't.

OTOH, as a Catholic himself (and one who is documented as having gone to great lengths to keep himself straight with the rules), he probably accepts that as being one of Da Rules (as Jurgen von Strangle might put it).

Another facet to the issue, however, is that the sincerity of his repentance for anything at all is a matter to be assessed by himself and the deity he professes to worship.

ETA: That's imminent, Omegaman.

[Shagnasty]

I wouldn't post this unless it solicited from a pit thread. I was thrilled at the breaking news of a terminal brain tumor even as a citizen of the state of Massachusetts. Kennedy's die. That is what they do best even if they have to take innocent women out with them. They are a repulsive family overall and even worse than the Bush family many times over (the Bush family has some explaining to do as well).

I think it is hypocritical for anyone to show outrage at this view. Unless you are a saint in waiting, most people wouldn't shed a tear if say, David Duke had a serious health problem. Plenty of people around the world hate George W Bush. I could understand why they would want him dead although I don't completely hold that view myself. What is the difference?

Are people here so pure that they hold all human life so sacred that it has to be revered at all times including dirty, old scandalous men that kill people? He was a long-time senator. He is a massive alcoholic (as I was) that went on autopilot years ago to rubber stamp anything the Democratic party proposed. He is certainly not a leader on any sense of the word except that he has the last name and seniority to step in and give some keyword speeches when it is required.

I wouldn't volunteer such commentary like Shodan did because that is generally in poor taste to wish ill for an ailing person but I think we can all think of someone that we would like to have incapacitated in a hospital room rather than in active service.

[Fear Itself]

The universe has a way of balancing such grotesque hatred. When Shodan is gasping his last breath, he will realize with utter clarity that the number of people who care about his passing add up to bare fraction of the thousands who love and respect Ted Kennedy.


"Here's to those who wish us well;
All the rest can go to Hell!"

[BobLibDem]

In all fairness, if Dick Cheney were in that hospital bed I would, like every good and decent American, be praying to Og to increase his suffering and yet hasten his end.

But I don't know as I'd post about it.

I despise Cheney as much as anyone, but he does have a family that loves him and I don't think they deserve to go through a prolonged deathwatch of someone in pain. Once a person steps out of public life because of illness or retirement, I think basic human decency demands that we not wish them ill or rejoice in their suffering.

[Cervaise]

I must say that I'm surprised and disgusted by your actions.Seriously, surprised? It was obvious the Shobot was going to start generating predictable threadshits the instant the Kennedy story hit the headlines. It's how it's programmed. Don't condemn the Shobot, it can't help itself.

[Sarahfeena]

Hate does nothing but poison the hearts of the people who hold it. Even for the worst humans imaginable, one should never hate, never rejoice in suffering, never wish them worse.Well, you know, I don't see Shodan doing any of that in that linked thread. He doesn't seem to me to be hating, or rejoicing, or wishing anyone anything. He's just not acting all that sorry...I don't think you are characterizing his reaction accurately.



I do. And I also believe Shodan is under a moral obligation not to carry a grudge. Why?

[Hamlet]

I will confess that my thoughts when they announced this on the radio were "Huh. How ironic. America's cancer has a tumor", but those thoughts were directed towards Kennedy the politician and all of the damage that he's done to this country over the years, Kennedy the man has my thoughts and prayers that his treatment be successful and his remaining life (1 year or 10) be as coherent and pain free as possible.I'll say I never liked Teddy. I think he's a complete slimebag who gets by on his last name and he acted reprehensibly decades ago.

But I'm still having trouble with the whole "damage he's done to this country", thing. Care to explain, or is this a drive by shot at all democrats?

[wring]

I wouldn't post this unless it solicited from a pit thread. I was thrilled at the breaking news of a terminal brain tumor even as a citizen of the state of Massachusetts. Kennedy's die. That is what they do best even if they have to take innocent women out with them. They are a repulsive family overall and even worse than the Bush family many times over (the Bush family has some explaining to do as well).

I think it is hypocritical for anyone to show outrage at this view. Unless you are a saint in waiting, most people wouldn't shed a tear if say, David Duke had a serious health problem. Plenty of people around the world hate George W Bush. I could understand why they would want him dead although I don't completely hold that view myself. What is the difference?

Are people here so pure that they hold all human life so sacred that it has to be revered at all times including dirty, old scandalous men that kill people? He was a long-time senator. He is a massive alcoholic (as I was) that went on autopilot years ago to rubber stamp anything the Democratic party proposed. He is certainly not a leader on any sense of the word except that he has the last name and seniority to step in and give some keyword speeches when it is required.

I wouldn't volunteer such commentary like Shodan did because that is generally in poor taste to wish ill for an ailing person but I think we can all think of someone that we would like to have incapacitated in a hospital room rather than in active service.
what a fucking waste of oxygen you are.

[elucidator]

...Why?...

Bad karma. Adds red and black to your aura. Puts knots in your chi. And, it isn't cost-effective.

[Weirddave]

I'll say I never liked Teddy. I think he's a complete slimebag who gets by on his last name and he acted reprehensibly decades ago.

But I'm still having trouble with the whole "damage he's done to this country", thing. Care to explain, or is this a drive by shot at all democrats?
It's a drive by shot at Teddy Kennedy. The immigration "reform" that he sponsored and pushed through in the 60s has done more damage to this country than eight years of George W Bush's freespending idiocy. The list goes on from there.

[elucidator]

You know, I'm not much surprised that there isn't any major grief going on here, Teddy ain't that much. He's more than I ever thought he'd be, but my expectations were low. In light of that moderate indifference, I'm still repeatedly surprised by how much some people hate this guy.

I mean, "murderer"? Get real! Murder is an act of caculated malice, thats what makes it evil. Being drunk and/or stupid, or losing ones temper, or woefully negligent, and thereby causing a death? Yeah, that's pretty bad. But it ain't murder, and very few of us have it in us. Ted Kennedy could no more commit murder than I could give birth. If you just gotta hate somebody that much, at least try and save it for someone more deserving. And if you can't find anyone, well, maybe thats better all the way around.

[elucidator]

It's a drive by shot at Teddy Kennedy. The immigration "reform" that he sponsored and pushed through in the 60s has done more damage to this country than eight years of George W Bush's freespending idiocy. The list goes on from there.
Whoa, big horse, steady up there! Teddy is a worse person than GeeDubya? Is psoriasis worse than leprosy?

[wring]

Whoa, big horse, steady up there! Teddy is a worse person than GeeDubya? Is psoriasis worse than leprosy? you forget that dave is a recoverinng liberal?

[Sarahfeena]

You know, I'm not much surprised that there isn't any major grief going on here, Teddy ain't that much. He's more than I ever thought he'd be, but my expectations were low. In light of that moderate indifference, I'm still repeatedly surprised by how much some people hate this guy.

I mean, "murderer"? Get real! Murder is an act of caculated malice, thats what makes it evil. Being drunk and/or stupid, or losing ones temper, or woefully negligent, and thereby causing a death? Yeah, that's pretty bad. But it ain't murder, and very few of us have it in us. Ted Kennedy could no more commit murder than I could give birth. If you just gotta hate somebody that much, at least try and save it for someone more deserving. And if you can't find anyone, well, maybe thats better all the way around. I actually agree that what he did isn't murder. But being drunk and/or stupid, or losing ones temper, or woefully negligent, and thereby causing a death IS pretty bad. And when it's combined with enough family pull and sense of entitlement to never have to answer for it and get off scot-free brings it pretty close to "just as bad" in my mind. I don't hate the man, but I certainly can't bring myself to respect him, either.

[wring]

. But being drunk and/or stupid, or losing ones temper, or woefully negligent, and thereby causing a death IS pretty bad. .
is no different than driving drunk and being unlucky. there is no difference other than sheer luck or lack thereof.

[Sarahfeena]

is no different than driving drunk and being unlucky. there is no difference other than sheer luck or lack thereof. The event, perhaps (although I don't tend to brush off drunk driving that cavalierly). His reaction to it, on the other hand, had nothing to do with bad luck.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

is no different than driving drunk and being unlucky. there is no difference other than sheer luck or lack thereof.

There's nothing unlucky about having an accident while driving drunk. Doing that is nothing more or less than begging for it.

[wring]

Ahh. obviously there's the diffference between Bush/ Dick & Ted. :rolleyes:

[wring]

There's nothing unlucky about having an accident while driving drunk. Doing that is nothing more or less than begging for it. exactly.

[Sarahfeena]

exactly. OK, now I'm confused about what your point is here.

[Weirddave]

Whoa, big horse, steady up there! Teddy is a worse person than GeeDubya? Is psoriasis worse than leprosy?
Did I say that? Where?

[NinetyWt]

I think it is hypocritical for anyone to show outrage at this view. Unless you are a saint in waiting, most people wouldn't shed a tear if say, David Duke had a serious health problem. Plenty of people around the world hate George W Bush. I could understand why they would want him dead although I don't completely hold that view myself. What is the difference?

Are people here so pure that they hold all human life so sacred that it has to be revered at all times including dirty, old scandalous men that kill people?
The kicker for me is the sentiment mentioned upthread have of rejoicing in it (note: I haven't read the linked post by Shodan and cast no judgement on it). I just don't have that bone in me, I reckon. I might not hold "all human life sacred" but I'm not going to throw a party if my enemy dies. It just feels wrong.

[NinetyWt]

In all fairness, if Dick Cheney were in that hospital bed I would, like every good and decent American, be praying to Og to increase his suffering and yet hasten his end.
Wow.

[Jragon]

But, but, what about Hitler!?!?*







* ;) (check you PMs)


This is going to bite me in the butt later... and I'll probably be labled a Nazi here, but I feel that even as terrible as Hitler was, the loss of his life was still at it's core a bad thing. Though in this case I'm also more sorry he thought the way he did as well, whatever odd combination of personal mental... notrightednessitude... and surrounding environment made him think the way he did was tragic, think of it like a very long, strange illness where the patient and those around him don't know he was sick but it still ended tragically and painfully for everyone involved. (I.E. though relatively impossible the "cure" would be to convince him to change how he thought, like some illnesses were once uncurable this one was similar, unchangable).

I'm not saying Hitler was a good person, or that his death didn't have positive effects on the world, just like your boss' death, however bad, still opens up that CEO position for someone else to get promoted to. I'm just saying at its core, the loss of life, and suffering of the life and effects on the people around it was a bad thing.

Basically I just feel like celebrating the death or affliction of those you disagree with basically makes you a dick (even if those disagreements come down to actions that are atrocious in your, or most people's, views). I'm probably just weird though.

[The Second Stone]

Being born in the early 60s I always thought that the stories friends (even Republican ones) told me about how people said they didn't care or even approved of when JFK or RFK were murdered must have been misremembered. I see that once again I am probably wrong. I'm going to download this whole thread and save it. This thread is the saddest thing I have ever read about my country.

Every piece of legislation that Edward M. Kennedy authored and got passed and signed into law, and he did that more than any other legislator in this nation's history, was passed by a majority of the House, a filibuster-secure majority in the Senate and signed by the President into law. A piece of legislation secure from filibuster represents a super-majority of at least 60 or 66 percent of the States, and often a great deal more of the population. To see people be so contemptuous of all the people's representatives as to say that Kennedy did great damage to this country through his service to use as a Senator is most unfortunate. As for his most unfortunate accident in which Mary Jo Kopechne lost her life and Kennedy failed to report for far too long, the story related above that he never was convicted is untrue, he pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident and received a two month suspended sentence. I hope that this never happens to anyone we know. It is also untrue that he has never apologized to the public or the family, he has done both as reported in the New York Times on July 18, 1994. The Kopechne family also received a settlement. Yes, Kennedy's disease of alcoholism caused this accident in my opinion. I suppose what really disappoints me the most is that I get the distinct feeling that people who dislike Kennedy's politics relish that this tragedy happened.

When a certain conservative writer died earlier this year, I certainly did not relish that he had a long heroin habit (which he was perfectly happy with having and as he and I might both have agreed is none of my business), but I gave him the respect that a learned opponent who contributed (in ways I wish no one had contributed) to our political process.

Are we really so immature that we do not give room for differences of opinion and for real human nature? Apparently so. And it bespeaks the danger to our republic when we cannot acknowledge when the other side has won majority votes, or when an opponent is mentioned the ad hominem is the first counter mention, even though four long decades have passed, and it truly was an incident as tragic to Kennedy as the murders of his brothers.

I continue to be nonplussed by not just the lack of charity by people allied politically with Christians in situations like these, but it shocks me to see the lack of civilized behavior by and large. When Nixon died, I reflected on his accomplishments and what could have been for such a gifted man, I certainly did not go out and publicly post for the world to see my lack of manners in mentioning how much I disagreed with his politics -- after a civilized mourning period, I have the rest of my life to do that if I feel the need.

It's not that I didn't know that people felt this way about Kennedy, I always have. I am just so disappointed that so many of my fellow Americans are so poorly raised.

[Zoe]

Sarafeena: Mr. Kennedy has not indicated to the public that he's sorry for any wrong he might have committed.

You have commented on this one way or another several times now. You are mistaken. Senator Kennedy did go before the public with an address on television about this very issue. I will see if I can find a transcript. To the best of my recollection, it was an apology for not handling the situation well, but it has been perhaps 38 years ago and I haven't seen a replay.

Maybe his speech was given before you were born. I don't think it is something he should have to give again and again.

The tragedy itself was in August of 1969. The bridge has rotted away.

[Club 33]

I actually agree that what he did isn't murder. But being drunk and/or stupid, or losing ones temper, or woefully negligent, and thereby causing a death IS pretty bad.

I assume you hold the same contempt for Laura Bush. You are aware that she killed someone with an automobile, right? Drunk? No. Woefully negligent? You bet.

Or is that different? Would you mind if people attacked her, should she have the misfortune of developing brain cancer?

[Zoe]

The Kennedy address (http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/tedkennedychappaquiddick.htm) was given to the people of Massachusetts on July 25, 1969, but was broadcast nation wide. (I was mistaken about the month.) It is also available on YouTube. These are some excerpts. They are better viewed in context:

Although my doctors informed me that I suffered a cerebral concussion, as well as shock, I do not seek to escape responsibility for my actions by placing the blame either on the physical and emotional trauma brought on by the accident, or on anyone else. I regard as indefensible the fact that I did not report the accident to the police immediately.



All kinds of scrambled thoughts -- all of them confused, some of them irrational, many of them which I cannot recall, and some of which I would not have seriously entertained under normal circumstances -- went through my mind during this period. They were reflected in the various inexplicable, inconsistent, and inconclusive things I said and did...

[Mosier]

A bunch of you guys need to lighten up. You guys are the kind of douchebags that are trying to shit all over the cafe society threads "Obama/McCain looks like the kind of guy who..."

ANYTHING can be funny. Even dead babies, holocaust victims, rape, and Ted Kennedy having a brain tumor. Shodan's remarks were sarcastic, and sometimes funny, and even if you don't agree it certainly isn't worth it to get all righteous and bent out of shape for a pitting.

[Weirddave]

Every piece of legislation that Edward M. Kennedy authored and got passed and signed into law, and he did that more than any other legislator in this nation's history, was passed by a majority of the House, a filibuster-secure majority in the Senate and signed by the President into law. A piece of legislation secure from filibuster represents a super-majority of at least 60 or 66 percent of the States, and often a great deal more of the population. To see people be so contemptuous of all the people's representatives as to say that Kennedy did great damage to this country through his service to use as a Senator is most unfortunate.
Do you feel that George W Bush has done great damage to this country during his public service as President? After all, everything he has done has been vetted and passed by those same men and women in Congress. Just curious.

Also, since I am the one who spoke of the damage that Kennedy has done to our nation, I assume that these comments are at least tangentially addressed to me, so I would ask you this: I clearly differentiated between Kennedy-the-man suffering from a deadly disease (unlike our friend Brain Glutton who gleefully posted how he would wish pain and death upon someone he differed with politically), and Kennedy-the-politician who doggedly pursued laws and policies that I believe have been detrimental to the United States. Is it your expectation that because he is ill I should refrain from criticizing his politics? If so, why?

[Orbifold]

Back from work, wanted to address this:

How is it basic human decency to pretend to be sorry that someone you hate is dying?

"Hate." Think about that word for a moment. Why the hell is hate entering this picture at all?

It's basic human decency to not let fucking POLITICAL DIFFERENCES turn into so much hatred that you rejoice in another man's suffering. It's basic human decency to recognize that some things aren't to be wished even on your worst enemy. It's basic human decency to recognize that we all share in the human condition and that consequently rejoicing in this kind of shit harms us all.

And if you can't understand that then I don't know how else to fucking explain it.

On a related note, Shagnasty, you're repugnant.

[Liberal]

I've been trying to figure out for, well, years now, why exactly no mod has called Shodan on his trollish behavior. A simple search for his name will reveal that most of his contributions to a thread are nothing more than one liners designed to elicit an aggressive response. He rarely mentions his views on a given subject (because then he'd have to defend his views), but instead just makes fun of opinions held by others (usually the dreaded "Usual Suspects" and/or liberals). In what way is that not the behavior of a troll?

Seriously, does he ever add anything of substance with his drive-by threadshits?You've just described Elucidator, and he is not a troll. Just because you get pissed off doesn't mean somebody was trying to do nothing more than piss you off.

[Carson O'Genic]

ANYTHING can be funny. Even dead babies, holocaust victims, rape, and Ted Kennedy having a brain tumor. Shodan's remarks were sarcastic, and sometimes funny, and even if you don't agree it certainly isn't worth it to get all righteous and bent out of shape for a pitting.

I suppose you're right about the humour potential. The problem I've noticed is once you squeeze yourself into the place that understands it you end up warped.
What disturbs me about this thread isn't lack of empathy for Ted Kennedy but failing to consider some people don't see it as a time for laughter.
But to those who sodomise for sport those on their deathbed are easy release.

Regards,
Carson O'Genial

[wring]

OK, now I'm confused about what your point is here.
anyone who drives drunk risks the tragic accident. anyone -including Bush, Cheany (twice). See also comments about Laura Bush's accidental killing, and the fact you're incorrect about the apology.

[Sarahfeena]

anyone who drives drunk risks the tragic accident. anyone -including Bush, Cheany (twice). See also comments about Laura Bush's accidental killing, and the fact you're incorrect about the apology. Oh, ok, I see what you are saying now. You are right that many people get away with drunk driving, but I fail to see how that excuses anyone else. Anyway, as I mentioned before, it's not so much the fact that it happened, but what he did about it afterwards that I think it inexcusable. As far as I know, Laura Bush did not run from the scene of the accident, preventing her friend who was killed a chance to be saved. Also, if I recall correctly, the police report did not say she was under the influence.

Regarding his apology, mea culpa on my forgetting about his speech (I was born at the time, Zoe, but I was very very young!) Being sorry isn't just about apologizing, though. It's about repentancy and retribution. Who of us would be able to use a speech on television as a "get out of jail free" card? Is that justice, that the rich and powerful can do so, but the rest of the world has to answer for our "mistakes?"

The tragedy itself was in August of 1969. The bridge has rotted away. Why do you think there is no statute of limitations on murder?

[DoctorJ]

Regarding his apology, mea culpa on my forgetting about his speech (I was born at the time, Zoe, but I was very very young!) Being sorry isn't just about apologizing, though. It's about repentancy and retribution. Who of us would be able to use a speech on television as a "get out of jail free" card? Is that justice, that the rich and powerful can do so, but the rest of the world has to answer for our "mistakes?"I think the overwhelming majority of us would use whatever resources we had at our disposal to reduce our punishment. If you hire a good lawyer who can get you a lighter sentence than the overworked public defender, is that morally wrong? Because that is using your superior resources to mitigate your punishment.

Kennedy paid out nearly $100,000 to the family, lost his chance to ever be President (which was a good one), and has spent nearly forty years being called a murderer. I don't think you can say he wasn't punished; he just never went to jail.

Serious question: had the serious taboo attached to drunk driving by that point? My understanding was that it has been illegal for a long time but that it wasn't a huge deal to drive after you'd had a few until MADD's efforts made it so. Had that happened by then? Not that it makes things better or worse; just curious.

[What Exit?]

Serious question: had the serious taboo attached to drunk driving by that point? My understanding was that it has been illegal for a long time but that it wasn't a huge deal to drive after you'd had a few until MADD's efforts made it so. Had that happened by then? Not that it makes things better or worse; just curious.
Good points and to answer your question, the drunk driver taboo did not become serious until later. I would say late 70s early 80s. Bush had his own non-lethal incident in the early 70s and the stories of Mickey Mantle wrecking his car and the cops just driving him home to sleep it off are fairly well known for the 50s and 60s.

Jim

[Shodan]

Sorry I missed this earlier. Just to focus the discussion, could someone cut and paste the places where I mentioned that I was happy that Ted was sick?

Most of my posts to the thread were about the other Kennedys in and out of Congress.

Regards,
Shodan

[Cheesesteak]

Well, you know, I don't see Shodan doing any of that in that linked thread. He doesn't seem to me to be hating, or rejoicing, or wishing anyone anything. He's just not acting all that sorry...I don't think you are characterizing his reaction accurately. Agreed, I'm seeing more of a non-reaction than a hateful or gleeful reaction. Shodan was speaking about Ted and the family in the same manner as he would have before the illness was made public.

Brain cancer is bad, certainly, but the initial prognosis is 1-5 years survival. Heck, he's already 76 years old, you can practically give a 1-5 year survival rate based on nothing but his age and overall health. Maybe it's unseemly to take shots at someone who has just gotten this news, but I don't think all TK discussion now needs to be sunshine and puppydogs.

[Omegaman]

Sorry I missed this earlier. Just to focus the discussion, could someone cut and paste the places where I mentioned that I was happy that Ted was sick?

Most of my posts to the thread were about the other Kennedys in and out of Congress.

Regards,
Shodan

Why do you even bother? Those that wish to label and judge you have already done so despite their own shortcomings. I'm sure your more than aware of your own intentions despite others attempts to inform you of such. Just stand tall and bear it. The hyenas will skulk off once the flesh is rendered from the bone. Remember the Samurai my friend.

[Sarahfeena]

If Shodan feels the need to defend himself, it's partially my fault. I should not have projected my feelings or opinions onto him with my semi-hypothetical question in my first post here. As I said later, I see no hatred, glee, or any other such emotion from him in that thread.

Shodan, I'm sorry about my own mischaracterization of what you said.

[BobLibDem]

Sorry I missed this earlier. Just to focus the discussion, could someone cut and paste the places where I mentioned that I was happy that Ted was sick?

Most of my posts to the thread were about the other Kennedys in and out of Congress.

Regards,
Shodan

When one of your acquaintances in real life is seriously ill, do you rush to their hospital bed to let them know how rotten you think their family is? That's how you came across in the other thread, from my point of view.

[chela]

Being born in the early 60s I always thought that the stories friends (even Republican ones) told me about how people said they didn't care or even approved of when JFK or RFK were murdered must have been misremembered. I see that once again I am probably wrong. I'm going to download this whole thread and save it. This thread is the saddest thing I have ever read about my country.

Every piece of legislation that Edward M. Kennedy authored and got passed and signed into law, and he did that more than any other legislator in this nation's history, was passed by a majority of the House, a filibuster-secure majority in the Senate and signed by the President into law. A piece of legislation secure from filibuster represents a super-majority of at least 60 or 66 percent of the States, and often a great deal more of the population. To see people be so contemptuous of all the people's representatives as to say that Kennedy did great damage to this country through his service to use as a Senator is most unfortunate. As for his most unfortunate accident in which Mary Jo Kopechne lost her life and Kennedy failed to report for far too long, the story related above that he never was convicted is untrue, he pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident and received a two month suspended sentence. I hope that this never happens to anyone we know. It is also untrue that he has never apologized to the public or the family, he has done both as reported in the New York Times on July 18, 1994. The Kopechne family also received a settlement. Yes, Kennedy's disease of alcoholism caused this accident in my opinion. I suppose what really disappoints me the most is that I get the distinct feeling that people who dislike Kennedy's politics relish that this tragedy happened.

When a certain conservative writer died earlier this year, I certainly did not relish that he had a long heroin habit (which he was perfectly happy with having and as he and I might both have agreed is none of my business), but I gave him the respect that a learned opponent who contributed (in ways I wish no one had contributed) to our political process.

Are we really so immature that we do not give room for differences of opinion and for real human nature? Apparently so. And it bespeaks the danger to our republic when we cannot acknowledge when the other side has won majority votes, or when an opponent is mentioned the ad hominem is the first counter mention, even though four long decades have passed, and it truly was an incident as tragic to Kennedy as the murders of his brothers.

I continue to be nonplussed by not just the lack of charity by people allied politically with Christians in situations like these, but it shocks me to see the lack of civilized behavior by and large. When Nixon died, I reflected on his accomplishments and what could have been for such a gifted man, I certainly did not go out and publicly post for the world to see my lack of manners in mentioning how much I disagreed with his politics -- after a civilized mourning period, I have the rest of my life to do that if I feel the need.

It's not that I didn't know that people felt this way about Kennedy, I always have. I am just so disappointed that so many of my fellow Americans are so poorly raised.

Welcome to the straight dope message board and thank you for posting that thoughtful reply. But when you mentioned a conservative writer w/ a heroin habit, who are you talking about? Though I might have an idea. Not that it matters, much. but still... wow.

[El_Kabong]

A bunch of you guys need to lighten up. You guys are the kind of douchebags that are trying to shit all over the cafe society threads "Obama/McCain looks like the kind of guy who..."

ANYTHING can be funny. Even dead babies, holocaust victims, rape, and Ted Kennedy having a brain tumor. Shodan's remarks were sarcastic, and sometimes funny, and even if you don't agree it certainly isn't worth it to get all righteous and bent out of shape for a pitting.

About three weeks ago, my mother died of a brain tumor similar to that diagnosed in Kennedy, one that was originally diagnosed in August 2007. She had her ups and downs during her last few months, and was not in great pain during most of that time, but things were not particularly easy for her, nor for her three children (including me) who had to take care of her during that time. The last week was especially difficult: having to pick her up by myself and help her to the bathroom after falling down; changing her after she became bedridden and could no longer move, feeding her morphine drips when she was clearly in distress but could no longer speak; and, in particular, the last few hours, when some reaction related to one of her medications caused her to start spewing foam everywhere every time she breathed out. My poor sister threw up twice while trying to deal with this. It was pretty gross, frankly.


Sorry, maybe it's just my mood, but I don't find anything particularly funny about Kennedy's brain tumor. And I don't much like the guy either. But hey, if that's what gives you the chuckles, knock yourself out.

[smiling bandit]

Shodan, I am specifically speaking of this: Cripes, no wonder I can't keep them straight. The speed with which they go cycling in and out of Congress and rehab and court and traffic school is enough to give anyone a brain tumor.

So, in other words, with general ignorance and a gleeful tone of mocking cruelty, you despite to crack sicky jokes about his family. Please don't insult me by pretending you didn't intend it. Your tone and joy in his misfortune is clear. And I find it morally intolerable.

[Shodan]

When one of your acquaintances in real life is seriously ill, do you rush to their hospital bed to let them know how rotten you think their family is? No. But then again, Ted Kennedy is not my acquaintance, and I rather doubt he reads the SDMB or ever will.

If you are suggesting that Ted Kennedy's brain tumor means none of the rest of the public figures in his family can be criticized for their behavior, I disagree. This is especially true if they may run for public office.
Shodan, I'm sorry about my own mischaracterization of what you said.No problem, of course.
Why do you even bother?Because I am an attention whore. :D

Regards,
Shodan

[muttrox]

The immigration "reform" that he sponsored and pushed through in the 60s has done more damage to this country than eight years of George W Bush's freespending idiocy. The list goes on from there.

I'd be curious to know more of the list. I'm a Kennedy fan, I confess I'm not familiar with the case against his policies on balance.

[Jodi]

How is it basic human decency to pretend to be sorry that someone you hate is dying?

No one's talking about pretending anything, but it is basic human decency in those circumstances to keep your big yap shut. (General "you," not your personal yap, C.A..) A report of someone's terminal illness is the perfect opportunity to apply Thumper's Axiom.

[NinetyWt]

Basically I just feel like celebrating the death or affliction of those you disagree with basically makes you a dick (even if those disagreements come down to actions that are atrocious in your, or most people's, views). I'm probably just weird though. I guess I'll be 'weird' with you. I can't understand this and it looks like I never will.

[Shodan]

Shodan, I am specifically speaking of this:

So, in other words, with general ignorance and a gleeful tone of mocking cruelty, you despite to crack sicky jokes about his family. Please don't insult me by pretending you didn't intend it. Your tone and joy in his misfortune is clear. And I find it morally intolerable.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Regards,
Shodan

[elucidator]

You've just described Elucidator...
What? What I do to you? OK, I said your dog was ugly, but, hell, Lib a rottwieller-chihuahua blend? What were you thinking? And I may be a slut for the snarky one-liner, but are you really the one to say so? 'Cause, you know, just between us girls, you're no better than you should be....

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

Why do you think there is no statute of limitations on murder?
Since nobody with more than two brain cells to rub together would think that Kennedy murdered anybody--a point I thought you had accepted upthread, but I guess I was wrong--this comment is well beside the point.

[NurseCarmen]

There is no place in the SDMB where we should rejoice in the ill health of others.

Well. Except for the dead pool thread. It totally belongs there.

[Omegaman]

No problem, of course.Because I am an attention whore. :D

Regards,
Shodan

How does that old saying go, any press is good press?

[The Understander]

Oh, ok, I see what you are saying now. You are right that many people get away with drunk driving, but I fail to see how that excuses anyone else. Anyway, as I mentioned before, it's not so much the fact that it happened, but what he did about it afterwards that I think it inexcusable. As far as I know, Laura Bush did not run from the scene of the accident, preventing her friend who was killed a chance to be saved. Also, if I recall correctly, the police report did not say she was under the influence. <snip>


This one just makes me grind my teeth.

Know what? Despite lovely Laura's saintly reaction, the victim was just as dead as if he had been drowned in the Chappaquiddick River.

So the reaction afterward is what was important? Not the death? Really?

Bullshit. Obviously, your mileage varies, and takes a sharp detour onto Missing Point Boulevard.

[Sarahfeena]

I think the overwhelming majority of us would use whatever resources we had at our disposal to reduce our punishment. If you hire a good lawyer who can get you a lighter sentence than the overworked public defender, is that morally wrong? Because that is using your superior resources to mitigate your punishment. I think that the fact that outcomes depend on one's resources is morally problematic, although certainly it is a fact of life. I think that in the broad range of punishments one might expect receive for this particular event, he got off easily in the extreme.

Kennedy paid out nearly $100,000 to the family, lost his chance to ever be President (which was a good one), and has spent nearly forty years being called a murderer. I don't think you can say he wasn't punished; he just never went to jail. $100,000 is a drop in the bucket to Ted Kennedy. It would be like me paying out $1000 or even less. I don't think I'm going to lose much sleep over his not becoming President...that's a privilege few enjoy, and most folks get along just find without it. And I'm sure he doesn't like being called a murderer, but when you live in the public eye, people say all kinds of things. It's kind of the price you pay.

Serious question: had the serious taboo attached to drunk driving by that point? My understanding was that it has been illegal for a long time but that it wasn't a huge deal to drive after you'd had a few until MADD's efforts made it so. Had that happened by then? Not that it makes things better or worse; just curious. Oh, yeah, I do think that people didn't give it nearly the same kind of thought then that they do now.

But all of this is irrelevant, really...I'm not glad that he's sick, and I hope he doesn't suffer. I just am not going to pretend to admire him. Which is why I haven't posted in any of the threads about his situation, actually.

Since nobody with more than two brain cells to rub together would think that Kennedy murdered anybody--a point I thought you had accepted upthread, but I guess I was wrong--this comment is well beside the point. It's not beside the point I was trying to make. The point I was making was that when someone is killed prematurely, the effects on those around them last a long, long time. While I agree that this case can't be called murder, I don't think that the mere passage of time is sufficient reason to forgive and forget that someone was killed.

[Sarahfeena]

This one just makes me grind my teeth.

Know what? Despite lovely Laura's saintly reaction, the victim was just as dead as if he had been drowned in the Chappaquiddick River.

So the reaction afterward is what was important? Not the death? Really?

Bullshit. Obviously, your mileage varies, and takes a sharp detour onto Missing Point Boulevard. Please don't damage your teeth on my account...I think you missed what I was saying. What I was referring to was his IMMEDIATE reaction, which, if it had been different, Mary Jo might be alive today. Don't know for sure, but she might be. All of the recountings of that night, as I recall correctly, involve some kind of explanation of he and his friends trying to rescue her, but none of it involves any call to the authorities.

[Polycarp]

You know what, Sarah? Now that I've thought about it, I don't hope you get gang-raped and then have your erstwhile conservative friends saying that you asked for it. But that was my initial emotional reaction to your posts.

Which might say two things: 1) it's a good idea to slow down and think things over before acting. But 2) all of us have had enough regrets in our life to be able to sympathize with someone who made the wrong choice in a crisis situation.

[Sarahfeena]

You know what, Sarah? Now that I've thought about it, I don't hope you get gang-raped and then have your erstwhile conservative friends saying that you asked for it. But that was my initial emotional reaction to your posts.

Which might say two things: 1) it's a good idea to slow down and think things over before acting. But 2) all of us have had enough regrets in our life to be able to sympathize with someone who made the wrong choice in a crisis situation. On that note, see y'all later.

[Jodi]

You know what, Sarah? Now that I've thought about it, I don't hope you get gang-raped and then have your erstwhile conservative friends saying that you asked for it. But that was my initial emotional reaction to your posts.

Which might say two things: 1) it's a good idea to slow down and think things over before acting. But 2) all of us have had enough regrets in our life to be able to sympathize with someone who made the wrong choice in a crisis situation.

Neither of those choices is the chief thing that your post says. I expect vicious and meanspirited here in the Pit, Poly, but I'm very surprised to see it from you.

[Miller]

Regarding his apology, mea culpa on my forgetting about his speech (I was born at the time, Zoe, but I was very very young!) Being sorry isn't just about apologizing, though. It's about repentancy and retribution. Who of us would be able to use a speech on television as a "get out of jail free" card? Is that justice, that the rich and powerful can do so, but the rest of the world has to answer for our "mistakes?"

Assuming you haven't quit the thread for good, may I ask, what could Kennedy have done after the fact to redeem himself in your eyes?

[sqweels]

He's the conservative gadfly who pricks the hypocrisy of the liberal elitists. Maybe "prick" isn't the exact word. On second thought, yeah, it is.

If you're a conservative, you're better off arguing that hypocrisy is a good thing.

And who are the liberal "elitists" as opposed to the rank-and-file liberals?

[wring]

Oh, ok, I see what you are saying now. You are right that many people get away with drunk driving, but I fail to see how that excuses anyone else. Anyway, as I mentioned before, it's not so much the fact that it happened, but what he did about it afterwards that I think it inexcusable. As far as I know, Laura Bush did not run from the scene of the accident, preventing her friend who was killed a chance to be saved. Also, if I recall correctly, the police report did not say she was under the influence.
Never claimed Laura was under the influence, however, she drove negligently, causing another's death, was never prosecuted at all You'd linked negligent driving w/drunk driving. Kennedy was in fact prosecuted for leaving the scene of the accident. It seems to me that of the two, Laura was (by far) the least punished for her act.

You also miss my point about the drunk driving aspect of it. anyone who drives drunk runs the risk of causing another's death. So, if one were being non partisan about it, one would harbor the same level of bile for Bush and Cheanys' actions. Of course, collectively society has changed since way back then. Driving under the influence was not the high level societal faux pas it is now.


Regarding his apology, mea culpa on my forgetting about his speech (I was born at the time, Zoe, but I was very very young!) Being sorry isn't just about apologizing, though. It's about repentancy and retribution. Who of us would be able to use a speech on television as a "get out of jail free" card? Is that justice, that the rich and powerful can do so, but the rest of the world has to answer for our "mistakes?"

Why do you think there is no statute of limitations on murder?

Anyhow while we're at it, how about a cite for Kennedy being under the influence. Not rumor, not "he had to have been" but "he was shown to be" And unless you can demonstrate that as a fact, you probably shouldn't continue to assert that he was.

What he did was drove off a dark narrow bridge in the middle of nowhere. He was able to get out of the car, the other person was not. It's likely that unless there had been a gaggle of rescue folks on site, that poor woman would have drowned. This was prior to cell phones - Kennedy would have had to find his way to a phone in the middle of nothing in the middle of the night, and rescue folks would have had to get there immediately. People can't survive underwater for any long length of time. REgardless of his post accident actions, it's likely she'd have died.

You keep hollaring about murder. Frankly it's a rare case, even today, that some one who drives poorly resulting in a death is prosecuted for murder. It was almost unheard of then.

[Bridget Burke]

Assuming you haven't quit the thread for good, may I ask, what could Kennedy have done after the fact to redeem himself in your eyes?

Since she appears to have flounced off permanently, let this extremely lapsed Catholic voice her opinion. He could have gone to Confession (we still called it that, back in my day) & been absolved from his sin. That would have redeemed him in God's eyes--for that sin, at least. If you're a believer, that is....

[Shodan]

And who are the liberal "elitists" as opposed to the rank-and-file liberals?Obama. Duh.

;)

Regards,
Shodan

[The Second Stone]

Do you feel that George W Bush has done great damage to this country during his public service as President? After all, everything he has done has been vetted and passed by those same men and women in Congress. Just curious.

Also, since I am the one who spoke of the damage that Kennedy has done to our nation, I assume that these comments are at least tangentially addressed to me, so I would ask you this: I clearly differentiated between Kennedy-the-man suffering from a deadly disease (unlike our friend Brain Glutton who gleefully posted how he would wish pain and death upon someone he differed with politically), and Kennedy-the-politician who doggedly pursued laws and policies that I believe have been detrimental to the United States. Is it your expectation that because he is ill I should refrain from criticizing his politics? If so, why?

Well, I'll accept the invitation to go off topic and talk about Bush, and this other things. If I am still around when George Bush passes, I'll keep my mouth shut for a week and find something nice to say. He did, after all, sign the no call list bill, for which I am grateful. I am well aware that Congress as gone along with virtually everything he has done, most of which seemed to me at the time of passage would result in huge deficits and neverending war and civil war in Iraq. From where I was standing, these mistakes were obvious at the time they were made and my frustration at Congress abandoning it's obligation to check and balance the President may be even greater than my frustration at Bush. He is just one person who clearly doesn't have an alternate viewpoint available in his inner circle. Congress, with the exception of Robert Byrd and Barbara Lee stood by idly.

My comments are not directed at any one person. The whole tone of the thread together has a "ding-dong the witch is dead" attitude from many posters. It comes off as evil.

I also rambled a bit because I truly do not understand the viewpoint that Kennedy's work has been bad for the country. But my education on that is for another thread I suppose.

[Sarahfeena]

Since she appears to have flounced off permanently I'm not flouncing off in the sense that I think you mean it. It's just that when someone I have always respected tells me that what I've said was so awful that his first thought is that he hopes I get gang raped, it's time to reflect a little bit, that's all.

[smiling bandit]

I guess we will have to just disagree then. I don't think much of Ted Kennedy, maybe, but I can't encourage hate.

[Captain Amazing]

No one's talking about pretending anything, but it is basic human decency in those circumstances to keep your big yap shut. (General "you," not your personal yap, C.A..)

It seem like it's not, because all throughout history, you see examples of cultures where things like revenge are important cultural traits. A lot of societies would agree with Ghenghis Khan (and Conan the Barbarian) that what is best is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their woman." The idea that one should be magnanamous toward an enemy isn't a human trait, it's a trait in our culture.

[muttrox]

Assuming you haven't quit the thread for good, may I ask, what could Kennedy have done after the fact to redeem himself in your eyes?

Maybe devoting the rest of his life to improving the lot of those who weren't born with his wealth, status, and name.

Oh wait, he did that. Never mind. (That's addressed to SarahFeena, not Miller.)

Also I hope WeirdDave does give the list -- I really am geniunely curious to know what he's talking about.

[Shayna]

El_Kabong, my deepest condolences for your loss. I can't imagine your heartbreak. May your grief be tempered by loving memories of your mother.

As to the subject of this thread, all I'll say is that I'm never surprised by Shodan's trollish thread-shitting in GD. Par for the course. 'Nuf said.

[Ghanima]

Shodan, I rarely agree with you, but you are almost always entertaining. I don't think you deserved a pitting for your comments in the other thread, and many other Dopers would have totally blown a fuse in this thread. Bravo, sir.

[smiling bandit]

El_Kabong, my deepest condolences for your loss. I can't imagine your heartbreak. May your grief be tempered by loving memories of your mother.

Likewise. Condolences and warmest wishes.

[elucidator]

Still trying to imagine Sarahfeena "flouncing" at all, permanently or otherwise. Can't do it. Nope.

[Shodan]

Shodan, I rarely agree with you, but you are almost always entertaining. I don't think you deserved a pitting for your comments in the other thread, and many other Dopers would have totally blown a fuse in this thread. Bravo, sir.
Thanks! Maybe I can blow a fuse later - that might be entertaining too.

Regards,
Shodan

[Jodi]

It seem like it's not, because all throughout history, you see examples of cultures where things like revenge are important cultural traits.

Who cares what were "important cultural traits" to Ghengis Khan? Even if I were to concede that basic human decency is not a "human trait" but rather a "cultural trait," you concede it is in fact a trait of our culture. How is that an argument for disregarding it?

[Guinastasia]

A bunch of you guys need to lighten up. You guys are the kind of douchebags that are trying to shit all over the cafe society threads "Obama/McCain looks like the kind of guy who..."

ANYTHING can be funny. Even dead babies, holocaust victims, rape, and Ted Kennedy having a brain tumor. Shodan's remarks were sarcastic, and sometimes funny, and even if you don't agree it certainly isn't worth it to get all righteous and bent out of shape for a pitting.


Well, then he should have started a new discussion-THAT was not the thread to make jokes in.

[elucidator]

Or raise an ironic and skeptical eyebrow while maintaining a bemused but dignified silence. That would work.

[Omegaman]

Thanks! Maybe I can blow a fuse later - that might be entertaining too.

Regards,
Shodan

Well I have a wide selection of goats available it that doesn't work out for you.
You just let me know. Where did that brown one go...........

[Rubystreak]

You know what, Sarah? Now that I've thought about it, I don't hope you get gang-raped and then have your erstwhile conservative friends saying that you asked for it. But that was my initial emotional reaction to your posts.

This sentiment is going to pass with nary a comment, except to accuse Sarahfeena of "flouncing off" after reading it? Unfuckingbelievable.

[Shodan]

[punchline to the ventriloquist joke]

"Before we go any further, that sheep on the end's a liar!"

[/plttvj]

This sentiment is going to pass with nary a comment, except to accuse Sarahfeena of "flouncing off" after reading it? Probably better that way.

Regards,
Shodan

[elucidator]

Damn! I forgot to buy some Scotch....

[Jodi]

This sentiment is going to pass with nary a comment, except to accuse Sarahfeena of "flouncing off" after reading it? Unfuckingbelievable.

I commented, but I think the microphone was off.

[Lemur866]

You know what, Sarah? Now that I've thought about it, I don't hope you get gang-raped and then have your erstwhile conservative friends saying that you asked for it. But that was my initial emotional reaction to your posts.

Which might say two things: 1) it's a good idea to slow down and think things over before acting. But 2) all of us have had enough regrets in our life to be able to sympathize with someone who made the wrong choice in a crisis situation.
The thing I can't understand Polycarp, is why you don't have the human decency to be ashamed of yourself for writing the above. Better to have hung a millstone around your neck and cast yourself into the sea.

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you, that you actually typed that, and clicked "submit reply"?

[Shodan]

Hey! No hijacking my Pitting!

I think you mean "better to have been driven over a bridge with Teddy Kennedy hanging around your neck".

Regards,
Shodan

[guizot]

The immigration "reform" that he sponsored and pushed through in the 60s has done more damage to this country than eight years of George W Bush's freespending idiocy. Yeah. When the floodgate of the Chinese was opened, their dry-cleaners mafia completely ruined the economy. It destroyed my childhood dream of washing clothes for a living, because my Cantonese is so poor. But as a result, I had to deliver food for a Chinese restaurant all night during college because of financial aid cuts. It affected my grades, but now I have an "in" with dry-cleaning mafia.

[Rubystreak]

I commented, but I think the microphone was off.

Sorry, I missed it. I agree with your sentiment to the letter, and Lemur866's. I hope Polycarp comes back to this thread and makes amends.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

This sentiment is going to pass with nary a comment, except to accuse Sarahfeena of "flouncing off" after reading it? Unfuckingbelievable.
FWIW, I just read it, and I'm both surprised and appalled. Polycarp, what on earth possessed you to make you think that was in any way an appropriate thing to say? Sarafeena's posts in this thread have been reasonable and appropriate; if your first instinct was to wish gang-rape on her, that says some pretty awful things about you, but nothing about her. She's not the one that needs to spend some time in deep reflection, IMO.

Daniel

[Rilchiam]

Waitaminut...POLYCARP said that shit? What would the Gay Teen Messiah think?

[Omegaman]

The thing I can't understand Polycarp, is why you don't have the human decency to be ashamed of yourself for writing the above. Better to have hung a millstone around your neck and cast yourself into the sea.

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you, that you actually typed that, and clicked "submit reply"?

Give him a break, please. It's not easy turning the other cheek all the time. You get tired of wiping the shit off of yourself.

[Autolycus]

Whether it's fair or not, in my eyes Polycarp (along with a few others) stands on this board as a representative of Christianity as it should be, and seeing such a comment is extremely jarring. From my perspective, Polycarp did not by any means wish any harm; he was stating his initial irrational opinion. Still, the fact that it comes across so passive-agressively mean and also seems so out of line with Sarah's comment is mystifying indeed.

I actually read this page before going back and reading the second half of page two, and I can't possibly understand what set Poly off like that. I didn't see Sarah gloating over Senator Kennedy's looming demise, only questions and concerns regarding justice. I join Ruby and Jodi in wishing for his return and an amicable ending.

[Rubystreak]

Give him a break, please. It's not easy turning the other cheek all the time. You get tired of wiping the shit off of yourself.

We are giving him a break. What he said deserves a much more extreme negative reaction, but everyone is so surprised that Polycarp would say something that mean-spirited and awful that we're just waiting for him to post that someone stole his login ID and it wasn't him, or some other rational explanation.

Bridget Burke's nasty comment, however, surprised no one. ;)

[Denis]

Polycarp, I hope you're OK. Rage like that sucks. It will fuck you over. For your sake, please try to make amends.


On topic : Well, I can't exactly cast any stones at Shodan for his posting on Kennedy, except to say that I don't think that was the thread to post them in.

[El_Kabong]

Likewise. Condolences and warmest wishes.

Thanks to you and Shayna for the kind words. I'm fine. Having now seen both parents go though long bouts with cancers (Dad passed in '01), however, I just really, really hope I don't have to go like that, and I've got no compelling reason to wish it on anyone else.

[Ensign Edison]

This sentiment is going to pass with nary a comment, except to accuse Sarahfeena of "flouncing off" after reading it? Unfuckingbelievable.

Let's be very clear for a moment.

Do you think being raped is worse than dying?

PS: I'm sure Polycarp never wished that on her for even a moment, and of course no one would. He was making a point.

[Rubystreak]

Let's be very clear for a moment.

Do you think being raped is worse than dying?

Oh, come on.

PS: I'm sure Polycarp never wished that on her for even a moment, and of course no one would. He was making a point.

I'm sure he did, because he himself said so.

[Weirddave]

Also I hope WeirdDave does give the list -- I really am geniunely curious to know what he's talking about.
I don't really feel like retracing Senator Kennedy's entire legislative career bill by bill and arguing weather his position was "good" or "bad" on each issue, I don't have the time nor the inclination. As far as the damage he's done, off the top of my head: I've already listed immigration, which is enough to damn him all by itself, he's also responsible for Title IX, which has lived far beyond it's original sports related function and is eagerly being used to gut higher education today, he supported the Nuclear Weapons Freeze Campaign, which would have given the Soviets a permanent military advantage over the US, he's continually pushed measures to expand welfare, extend benefits to illegal aliens, expanded affirmative action, continually tried to gut NSEERS, fought to curtail free speech amongst the serving military, supported an insane version of UHC and fought to keep individual citizens from being able to control their own retirement accounts. That's just off the top of my head.

[Una Persson]

You know what, Sarah? Now that I've thought about it, I don't hope you get gang-raped and then have your erstwhile conservative friends saying that you asked for it. But that was my initial emotional reaction to your posts.
Holy shit, that's really ugly. How very unfortunate.

[Zoe]

Title IX...That was about gender equality, right?

Sarahfeena: It's about repentancy and retribution. Who of us would be able to use a speech on television as a "get out of jail free" card? Is that justice, that the rich and powerful can do so, but the rest of the world has to answer for our "mistakes?"

Oh, I see your game. At first you claimed that he didn't even apologize or admit responsibility. When you are shown to be wrong, you claim that his apology is a "get out of jail free" card and that he did not have to answer for his mistakes like the rest of the world.

But he has. Again and again and again and again. Because of people like you who sit in judgment and call him a murderer when you know that he is a public figure and you can get away with it without charges of libel or slander being brought against you, he continues to pay for his mistakes. You ignore the fact that he did have a concussion. You claim drunkenness. You want him to have been guilty of more than leaving the scene. Why?

Is 46 years of service to his country in the United States Senate not enough?

How do you know what remorse he has felt about her death all of these years? What would remorse look like? What would sorrow look like? How wrong is it to accuse someone of murder for an accident? How much money would have been enough? How many good works does he have to do for those less fortunate?

You will not find one word of criticism from me on the SDMB about Laura Bush for the accident which took a life. I can't imagine how much pain that must have caused her. I don't have to hear forty years of continuous mea culpa to have some compassion for her and not just for the family of the young man who died.

That's a nice pile of stones you have, my dear.

[elucidator]

Still, gotta give points for hostility towards the privileges of the ruling class. Definite advancement in proletariat identification and revolutionary awareness.

[ManiacMan]

Shodan...

I think you are great!

:)

[Ensign Edison]

Oh, come on.

Come on what? It's okay to wish death on people but not rape? What the fuck kind of sense does that make?


I'm sure he did, because he himself said so.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you always this deficient at recognizing different rhetorical styles not meant to be taken literally? He was parodying the position that it's okay to wish bad things on someone as long as it's just your initial emotional response. Obviously, dipshit.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Hey! No hijacking my Pitting!
If you don't want your Pitting hijacked, next time say something Pitworthy...

[muttrox]

I don't really feel like retracing Senator Kennedy's entire legislative career bill by bill and arguing weather his position was "good" or "bad" on each issue, I don't have the time nor the inclination. As far as the damage he's done, off the top of my head: I've already listed immigration, which is enough to damn him all by itself, he's also responsible for Title IX, which has lived far beyond it's original sports related function and is eagerly being used to gut higher education today, he supported the Nuclear Weapons Freeze Campaign, which would have given the Soviets a permanent military advantage over the US, he's continually pushed measures to expand welfare, extend benefits to illegal aliens, expanded affirmative action, continually tried to gut NSEERS, fought to curtail free speech amongst the serving military, supported an insane version of UHC and fought to keep individual citizens from being able to control their own retirement accounts. That's just off the top of my head.

Thanks for writing back. Funny how many of these I think of as good things. I guess we wouldn't need must political structure if everyone agreed on the right thing to do.

[Rubystreak]

Come on what? It's okay to wish death on people but not rape? What the fuck kind of sense does that make?


Please show where Sarahfeena wished death on someone. I don't see it anywhere. Offer a cite that would justify such a sentiment, even just rhetorically as you claim, or you really have no leg to stand on.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you always this deficient at recognizing different rhetorical styles not meant to be taken literally? He was parodying the position that it's okay to wish bad things on someone as long as it's just your initial emotional response. Obviously, dipshit.

Dipshit? Wow, you're quite the rapier-like wit today, aren't you? :rolleyes: He wasn't parodying shit, because Sarahfeena never wished bad things on Ted Kennedy, and you're dissembling if that's the case you're going to try to make. Unless all the people who have posted to this thread to say they found the comment inappropriate are dipshits and you, Bridget Burke, and Omegaman are the only ones who got it. Fine company to find yourself in, eh? You're contorting yourself to make excuses for a comment that was inexcusable. Deriding my intelligence and hurling gratuitous insults at me for pointing that out does nothing to help Polycarp's case.

[gonzomax]

I assume you hold the same contempt for Laura Bush. You are aware that she killed someone with an automobile, right? Drunk? No. Woefully negligent? You bet.

Or is that different? Would you mind if people attacked her, should she have the misfortune of developing brain cancer?
This is Shodanizing a pitt about Shodan. If you start a thread about Bush ,Shodan will say What about what Clinton did. It is not thread responsive and is diverting the thread. This is not about Laura or about Kennedys driving. It is about the total lack of empathy and humanity Shodan showed by enjoying the health problems of Kennedy. Classless and as base as it was..

[Ensign Edison]

Please show where Sarahfeena wished death on someone. I don't see it anywhere. Offer a cite that would justify such a sentiment, even just rhetorically as you claim, or you really have no leg to stand on.

Please show where I claimed she did. I said he was making a rhetorical point against a certain position, which the second half of his quote clearly demonstrates. I never claimed it was a position Sarahfeena was taking.

Dipshit? Wow, you're quite the rapier-like wit today, aren't you? :rolleyes:

Mocking someone else's lack of wit by demonstrating your own with a rolleyes smiley. That's comedy.

[Omegaman]

This is Shodanizing a pitt about Shodan.

Is this a new word I see? It's pretty rough when you have to come up with new words.

[Jodi]

Please show where I claimed she did. I said he was making a rhetorical point against a certain position, which the second half of his quote clearly demonstrates. I never claimed it was a position Sarahfeena was taking.

You do see that if Polycarp was in fact "making a rhetorical point against a certain position" that was not even one Sarahfeena was taking, then his incredibly vicious comment directed AT Sarahfeena is even less excusable. You get that, right?

[Shodan]

Shodan...

I think you are great!

:)
If you don't want your Pitting hijacked, next time say something Pitworthy...You people are completely missing the point!

This is supposed to be all about calling me a goat-felcher and talking about my inadequately sized penis and things like that.

Now somebody better start talking about my sexual inadequacies or I'm turning this Pitting right around and we are going home.

And I mean it, mister!

Regards,
Shodan

[What Exit?]

You people are completely missing the point!

This is supposed to be all about calling me a goat-felcher and talking about my inadequately sized penis and things like that.

Now somebody better start talking about my sexual inadequacies or I'm turning this Pitting right around and we are going home.

And I mean it, mister!

Regards,
Shodan
Well unless you plan to air your fantasies about gangraping other posters (and well liked ones no less) in OJ style, I don't think you can win this pitting back. The worst you do is threadshit sometimes.

[Rubystreak]

Please show where I claimed she did. I said he was making a rhetorical point against a certain position, which the second half of his quote clearly demonstrates. I never claimed it was a position Sarahfeena was taking.

The gang-rape comment was directed at Sarahfeena by name. If her position was not somehow worthy of such rhetoric, which it seems we agree on, then Polycarp's comment is even less excusable.

Mocking someone else's lack of wit by demonstrating your own with a rolleyes smiley. That's comedy.

I'm not trying to be witty. I'm also not trying to insult you. Your defense of Polycarp's comment just makes me roll my eyes.

[Otto]

Jeez, at least I waited until my guy was dead before pissing on his grave (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=255290).

[wring]

You people are completely missing the point!

This is supposed to be all about(snip) talking about my inadequately sized penis and things like that.

Now somebody better start talking about my sexual inadequacies or I'm turning this Pitting right around and we are going home.

And I mean it, mister!

Regards,
Shodan


Your wife posts here?




::rimshot::




(there, is that better? ;) )

[Shodan]

Much.

Thank you.

Regards,
Shodan

[Ensign Edison]

You do see that if Polycarp was in fact "making a rhetorical point against a certain position" that was not even one Sarahfeena was taking, then his incredibly vicious comment directed AT Sarahfeena is even less excusable. You get that, right?

Yeah, that's why I specifically said that in my last post. I thought it was pretty clear when I asked to be shown where I claimed Sarahfeena was taking that position, but I guess not.

[Autolycus]

Hey Shodan, while I got your attention, is your name from martial arts, System Shock, or other? Just curious.

[Shodan]

Martial arts - judo.

Regards,
Shodan

[Autolycus]

Martial arts - judo.

Cool! I'm a blue belt in Shotokan Karate. Kiah! :)

[Miller]

Funny, I always imagined Shodan as more of a Cobra Kai karate kind of guy.

[Club 33]

This is Shodanizing a pitt about Shodan. If you start a thread about Bush ,Shodan will say What about what Clinton did. It is not thread responsive and is diverting the thread. This is not about Laura or about Kennedys driving. It is about the total lack of empathy and humanity Shodan showed by enjoying the health problems of Kennedy. Classless and as base as it was..

Utter bullshit.

I was simply responding to a post made by Sarahfeena that stated that she could have no empathy for someone who had acted as recklessly as Kennedy had. My post was most certainly relevant in that regard. I did not post it to attack Laura Bush, but merely to point out that Sarahfeena's arguments could be easily applied to someone on the other side of the political spectrum as well. I was curious as to whether she held the same contempt for such recklessness when it didn't involve someone she had already made her mind up to despise.

[The Understander]

Funny, I always imagined Shodan as more of a Cobra Kai karate kind of guy.

Losing to the most bullshit kick ever?

Yeah, I could see that.

[Leaper]

Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you always this deficient at recognizing different rhetorical styles not meant to be taken literally? He was parodying the position that it's okay to wish bad things on someone as long as it's just your initial emotional response. Obviously, dipshit.

Actually, Polycarp admitted in this thread (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=469017) that it was intentional, not a parody at all.

He also apologized for it, Sarahfeena accepted, and we're all moving on.

Back to piling on Shodan. :D

[Zoe]

I do wish Sarahfeena had addressed Miller's question to her before she flounced out left in a snit. It was a good one:

...what could Kennedy have done after the fact to redeem himself in your eyes?

[Sarahfeena]

I do wish Sarahfeena had addressed Miller's question to her before she flounced out left in a snit. It was a good one: Zoe, fuck off.

[Shodan]

Geez, what the hell is it with this thread? First Polycarp, now Zoe.

My last Pitting didn't make all the normally nice Dopers sound like assholes.

Sheesh!

Regards,
Shodan

[Vinyl Turnip]

Obviously, sir, you have attained a level of assholery so rarified that your mere presence inspires assholery in all proximate initiates. I salute you.

It's good to sit atop the pyramid.

[NinetyWt]

My last Pitting didn't make all the normally nice Dopers sound like assholes.

Sheesh!

Regards,
Shodan

: puckers lips :

puh... puhrrr ....... phhhhhhhht....... psssssppptth.........


Hm.

What does an asshole sound like, anyway?? :dubious:


:p

[Don't Call Me Shirley]

Shodan, you are such a fucking moron in this post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9823633&postcount=46)- it doesn't deserve its own pitting but I couldn't say what I wanted to in that forum so I'm saying it here. Goddamn you are a stupid, thick, small-minded sack of monkey shit. How many times does it have to be explained to you that there is a difference between holding a view, and publishing said view in a fucking newspaper where you also happen to mention your place of work? It's not difficult, you stupid fuck. Either you're being deliberately obtuse as a brilliant parody, or you're the stupidest fucker on the planet. Guess where my money is.

What's the difference between Shodan's brain and a bag of shit?

The bag.

[Shodan]

: puckers lips :

puh... puhrrr ....... phhhhhhhht....... psssssppptth.........


Hm.

What does an asshole sound like, anyway?? :dubious:


:p
See the post above this one.

Regards,
Shodan

[Contrapuntal]

Shodan, you are such a fucking moron in this post (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9823633&postcount=46)- it doesn't deserve its own pitting but I couldn't say what I wanted to in that forum so I'm saying it here. Goddamn you are a stupid, thick, small-minded sack of monkey shit. How many times does it have to be explained to you that there is a difference between holding a view, and publishing said view in a fucking newspaper where you also happen to mention your place of work?According to the article in the thread you linked, she was fired for "her views." No mention of getting fired for publishing her views. So while there may indeed be a difference, it appears not to be germane.

[El Cid Viscoso]

Geez, what the hell is it with this thread? First Polycarp, now Zoe.

My last Pitting didn't make all the normally nice Dopers sound like assholes.

Sheesh!

Regards,
ShodanI don't think your pitting was warranted in the first place. Reading the thread that spawned this one, I just don't see the jubilation. It's a bum rap, Shodan.

Re: the odd occurrences in this thread, maybe you're like the Dope's own Dr Phil?

[Shodan]

I feel more like Jerry Springer.

Regards,
Shodan

[What Exit?]

I feel more like Jerry Springer.

Regards,
Shodan
Careful, many people consider Mr. Springer a professional real world troll and ass.


Come to think of it, still better than Dr. Phil I guess. ;)

[Zoe]

Amazing. It's considered inappropriate to refer to someone in the Pit as "being in a snit"? Wow. I'll have to remember that putdown. Maybe I'll become famous for my cleverness. I hope that's not considered jerkish behavior.

You know, Sarahfeena, that's the risk you take when you're on a message board -- especially when you participate in a place like The Pit. Somewhere, someday, someone may say that you're in a snit.

Don't let them see your chin tremble.

Or was your response just a way to dodge Miller's question again:

...what could Kennedy have done after the fact to redeem himself in your eyes?

[Rubystreak]

Amazing. It's considered inappropriate to refer to someone in the Pit as "being in a snit"? Wow. I'll have to remember that putdown. Maybe I'll become famous for my cleverness. I hope that's not considered jerkish behavior.

Will you just stop it already? She doesn't want to participate in this thread anymore. Do you think you're going to taunt and belittle her into arguing about with you? THAT is the jerkish behavior.

Don't let them see your chin tremble.

If someone you didn't like said to you what Polycarp said to Sarahfeena, your chin would not only be trembling, but it would be going up and down endlessly. Stop badgering Sarahfeena and walk away, will you?

[Leaper]

Amazing. It's considered inappropriate to refer to someone in the Pit as "being in a snit"? Wow. I'll have to remember that putdown. Maybe I'll become famous for my cleverness. I hope that's not considered jerkish behavior.


We went through this earlier in the thread with Bridget Burke. Saying that implies that you think that Sarahfeena was overreacting to someone telling her that he'd wished gang-rape on her.

[Zoe]

Rubystreak: Will you just stop it already? She doesn't want to participate in this thread anymore. Do you think you're going to taunt and belittle her into arguing about with you? THAT is the jerkish behavior.

<skip>

If someone you didn't like said to you what Polycarp said to Sarahfeena, your chin would not only be trembling, but it would be going up and down endlessly. Stop badgering Sarahfeena and walk away, will you?

But she likes Polycarp and her response to his post was to pause long enough to reflect on what he had said. That is what she posted about why she took a break after she saw his post.

And I've had much worse things said to me and I continued to teach my students after removing the offending student. It never entered my mind to cry or tremble.

I'm not "badgering" Sarahfeena. According to you, she isn't even participating here anymore. But even if she were, asking her a question relevant to her comments is hardly badgering.

If the word "snit" offends her, she shouldn't be using her own BBQ sauce in the Pit . Next time, I might insult her back.

[Rubystreak]

<But she likes Polycarp and her response to his post was to pause long enough to reflect on what he had said. That is what she posted about why she took a break after she saw his post.

I'm writing about YOU-- YOU would whine and moan about your hurt feelings ad nauseum if such a hateful thing were said to you. I don't want to beat up on Polycarp after he already apologized, but in light of his apology, her reaction could hardly be called a snit or flouncing. It was an appropriate reaction to leave the thread after some very negative words. Let her walk away from it without continuing to bring up her name and taunt her when you know she's not coming back to answer a pointless, needling question whose answer no one really cares about anymore anyway.

And I've had much worse things said to me and I continued to teach my students after removing the offending student. It never entered my mind to cry or tremble.

Nor was Sarahfeena crying, or trembling, or in a snit, or flouncing. Your totally made-up characterization of her that way and yourself as better than that is, well, par for the course.

If the word "snit" offends her, she shouldn't be using her own BBQ sauce in the Pit . Next time, I might insult her back.

It adds insult to injury and it's totally fucking inaccurate, but if you want to go on with this line of discussion, please do. You're only further harming your own image.

[Zoe]

Let her walk away from it without continuing to bring up her name and taunt her when you know she's not coming back to answer a pointless, needling question whose answer no one really cares about anymore anyway.

I have absolutely no control over whether she walks away or not. I don't "let" her do anything. I'm not "taunting" her -- especially since she's not here.

You have no way of knowing who cares about the question and the answer. I care about the answer to the question, but I concede that she won't answer it. Miller's question was neither pointless nor needling. I thought it bore repeating. It was in direct response to a series of disparaging comments that Sarafeena had made about Teddy Kennedy. When asked to make sense of her comments, she left the question unanswered even though she continued to participate in the discussion.

If Sarahfeena needs protecting in the Pit by someone else when she's not even here, she might want to think twice before she returns.

Rubystreak: I'm writing about YOU-- YOU would whine and moan about your hurt feelings ad nauseum if such a hateful thing were said to you.

Not in the Pit. Did you see me "whine and moan" about Sarafeena's "salute" to me as she left this thread? What would be the point of my being insulted by her words to me and about me? That's what you expect in the Pit.

At the moment, I see you trying to exercise control over whether I post or not and whether I mention her name even though she's not here. I'm not trying to curtail your posts. I'm just responding.

[Zoe]

I have an idea, Rubystreak.

You seem to have some pretty strong feelings about the way that Sarafeena is being talked about even though she is not here. Maybe you care about her personally even though you might not have met her face to face. It hurts you that she is hurting and you have a natural tendency to want to defend someone that you believe has been unfairly disrespected.

I can understand those feelings. I have them myself at the moment. Someone I care about has a brain tumor and I don't want anyone speaking ill of him right now. Maybe if you and Sarahfeena are a little more empathetic...

[Carson O'Genic]

Miller's question to Sarahfeena is a good one, worthy of response.
I would read it with interest; it may speak for many Americans.
Hopefully "murder" isn't among the metaphor.

[Rubystreak]

II can understand those feelings. I have them myself at the moment. Someone I care about has a brain tumor and I don't want anyone speaking ill of him right now. Maybe if you and Sarahfeena are a little more empathetic...

Don't accuse me of not being empathetic. You have no idea how I feel about Ted Kennedy. You do know that I think you're being awful to Sarahfeena, and it's to her I'm being empathetic here. If you think that what you're doing here is noble and empathetic to Sen. Kennedy, then I imagine you're perceiving yourself very differently from how you're actually coming across.

Miller's question isn't needling. You repeating it as if it's something of importance that Sarahfeena owes you an answer to is. Once a conversation gets to a point where your opponent wishes grave harm on you for your point of view, maybe that conversation has run its course. Maybe someone else willl answer it from their POV, but really, why not open a different thread then, not in the Pit?

[Miller]

Hey, Zoe, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop using my post to go after Sarahfeena. I don't like it when other people use me as a blunt instrument. She's under absolutely no obligation to answer my question. If beating that particular dead horse is so important to you, use your own words to do it. Just leave my name off of it.

[Zoe]

I'll try again, Rubystreak. You misunderstood.

You seem to have some pretty strong feelings about the way that Sarafeena is being talked about even though she is not here. Maybe you care about her personally even though you might not have met her face to face. It hurts you that she is hurting and you have a natural tendency to want to defend someone that you believe has been unfairly disrespected.

Surely there is nothing that you disagree with about what I have written thus far.

And I can understand those feelings because there are some parallels in what I have been feeling. Someone I care about has a brain tumor and I don't like it when anyone speaks ill of him at the moment. I wasn't saying that you are unempathetic altogether. But Sarahfeena has wanted people to be sensitive to her feelings without making an effort to be sensitive to ours. And you want us to be emphathetic to Sarahfeena also. And you claim that I would react the same way that she would. But I don't claim that privilege in the Pit.

I'm suggesting that if we both exercise a little of what we ask of the other, then the problem is resolved.

[Rubystreak]

I'll try again, Rubystreak. You misunderstood.

I understood perfectly but I think it's a stupid comparison. Sarahfeena was reading these words and she was affected by them because we all have a personal relationship. Ted Kennedy doesn't give a rat's ass what is said on the SDMB. See the difference? I hope so.

[Carol Stream]

Someone I care about has a brain tumor and I don't like it when anyone speaks ill of him at the moment.

Do you know the Senator personally? Is he a family member of yours?

Otherwise, this whole "I care" business is very vaguely creepy stalkerish. :dubious:

[Zoe]

No, just Rose and Eunice. And Bobby, but that one didn't count under the circumstances; he was campaigning.

(Carol, I'm on the first step...)

[Carol Stream]

No, just Rose and Eunice. And Bobby, but that one didn't count under the circumstances; he was campaigning.

Rose and Bobby are dead, Jim. What is your connection to the Kennedys that you "care" about the Senator?

[elucidator]

By God, I think she just made a funny! Carol Stream! You little scamp, you!

[What Exit?]

By God, I think she just made a funny! Carol Stream! You little scamp, you!
Confused the hell out of me at first, as I never expected Star Trek humor from Carol Stream. But then I can be a bit slow sometimes.

Jim

[Carol Stream]

But then I can be a bit slow sometimes.

Jim

Sometimes? :p