Salutation - Is it legal to call yourself Dr. (X)?

[jrishaw]

Simple question to the teeming genii :-)

"Hi. I'm Dr. Smith."

Can you refer to yourself as Dr. (X), even if you have no doctorate? What are laws regarding this? Is it criminal?

Could one go to the DMV and say "I'd like my license to say dr. bob smith" (assuming your name is bob smith)? What proof do you need to show (if any)?

Curious!

[matt_mcl]

My guess:

1) In social use, you can assume any identity you want except in cases of fraud. Free speech and all.

2) Your license being an official document, authorities would frown on you getting yours under a title that could be misleading.

3) It is, of course, illegal to practice medicine without a licence. It is also illegal to practice law without a license, so I'll stop now.

[Ashleth]

HOw can it be illegal to practice law without a license... I thought you were allowed to defend yourself in court... If thats not practicing law, I'm not quite sure what is?

I've got a question relating to this whole Dr. thing... Why do biology PhD's often use the title doctor, while chemists use professor?

[friedo]

Originally posted by Ashleth
HOw can it be illegal to practice law without a license... I thought you were allowed to defend yourself in court... If thats not practicing law, I'm not quite sure what is?


You're not allowed to defend anyone else, however, unless you are a lawyer. That's why we have bar associations and stuff.

[stkelly52]

You cannot call yourself Dr. and then do anything that bennifits yourself from it or else it is fraud. There was even a court case several years ago where a person had earned a PHD and then opened a eyeglassed store. He was instructed that he couldn't advertise his name a Dr. Joe Smith (i don't remember his real name) because it would make all of the customers think that he had earned his MD. They ruled that this was fraud.

[jrishaw]

Originally posted by stkelly52
You cannot call yourself Dr. and then do anything that bennifits yourself from it or else it is fraud. There was even a court case several years ago where a person had earned a PHD and then opened a eyeglassed store. He was instructed that he couldn't advertise his name a Dr. Joe Smith (i don't remember his real name) because it would make all of the customers think that he had earned his MD. They ruled that this was fraud.

When I posed the question, I meant it purely as a form of artificially gaining respect.

For example, if you're presenting ID at a club, or being pulled over by police, or whatever, if a person is presented as "Dr. Bob Smith," he is generally regarded in a more respectful manner as just "Bob Smith".

...

I specifically meant, what are the legal issues of calling yourself "Dr. Bob Smith" if your name is Bob Smith and you only graduated high school?

To wit:

One of the definitions of "doctor" is "a person who has earned the highest academic degree" ..

It is also defined in the VERB 'doctor' as the process of "falsifying as to make favorable to oneself ... ".

** Assuming you do nothing related to the term "Doctor" other than to create a salutation of yourself: **

[b]Legally,[b]

What is to prevent Bob Smith from calling himself "Dr. Bob Smith"?

[SSgtBaloo]

Originally posted by jrishaw
What is to prevent Bob Smith from calling himself "Dr. Bob Smith"? If Bob Smith's conscience doesn't bother him about making fraudulent claims, nothing at all. Lots of sociopathic people make false claims to gain advantage over others. "Dr." Bob Smith could have a promising (literally!) career in car sales. Of course, there is the little matter that "Dr. Bob Smith may eventually be asked to produce credentials or display specialized knowledge in the area he received his doctorate in.

~~Baloo

Dr. J

I've never heard anyone ask for his credentials.

[Andy]

Originally posted by jrishaw

Could one go to the DMV and say "I'd like my license to say dr. bob smith" (assuming your name is bob smith)? What proof do you need to show (if any)?



Most driving licenses seem to just have a name and no indication of title. My bank and credit cards read doctor; I never had to provide any proof of attainment.

IRL though, it rarely comes up as I have never introduced myself as doctor as I'm sure it would sound pompous.

[CalMeacham]

I've got a "Ph.D" after my name on my business card -- that's an appropriate place for it. I never call myself "Doctor" in public because 1.) people mistake you for an M.D. 2.) It sounds pompous, as noted above. I certainly don't feel comfortable doing it, unless I'm trying to impress someone in business (and even then, it's basically shorthand for "I know this stuff because I spent an absurd amount of time in school learning it")

You should only call yourself "Dr.X" if you are in charge of the X-men, or if you're the villain in a 1930s Columbia movie.

[matt_mcl]

By the way, if you're asking for rules of etiquette, I have it on good authority that you never introduce yourself by any title at all, be it Mr., Ms., Dr., or His Excellency.

[Maxwell Edison]

There's Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, although you should be cautious taking anything he prescribes.

[KellyM]

It is not illegal, in the general case, to call yourself "Doctor". The title itself enjoys no legal status whatsoever.

It is illegal to call yourself "Doctor" if you do so for the purpose of deceiving someone as to your skills, qualifications, or credentials, where such deception would amount to fraud. The optometry case mentioned previously falls into this category: consumers would be likely to be misled as to the actual credentials of the proprietor. It is also illegal to falsely claim to be a medical doctor in order to gain some privilege reserved by law to medical doctors.

The law prohibiting the practice of law by non-lawyers prohibits a person not admitted to the practice of law from either (a) appearing before a court as the attorney for some person other than himself or (b) holding oneself out as an attorney. Generally, the latter covers both offering legal advice for a fee, and stating that one is an attorney; it does not cover offering unpaid legal advice. Having an opinion as to a matter of law and expressing that opinion is not, by itself, "holding oneself out as an attorney".

It is not illegal to "represent" someone in a hearing other than in court when the law specifically says that you can have a non-attorney represent you (e.g. welfare appeal hearings, IRS audits) and can even be legal in court under certain circumstances (e.g as a "next friend" for an incompetent party).

Offering unpaid legal advice or generic legal advice (such as this message) is not (except in Texas, and that is under dispute) the unauthorized practice of law; it is, however, potentially unwise conduct because of the risk of civil liability, since if your advice is wrong you might get sued. Hence the "IANAL" disclaimer: by stating that you are not a lawyer you place the recipient of your "advice" on notice that you are not competent to give that advice.

As a final aside, it is considered improper for an attorney to use the title "Doctor" even though attorneys (in most states) hold a doctorate. An attorney should not use the title doctor unless the attorney holds a second doctorate in some other field.

[retsin2000]

Originally posted by Maxwell Edison
There's Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, although you should be cautious taking anything he prescribes.

I don't know about that. I mean shouldn't personal experience count for something? He has lots of personal experience. After all, he who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man. I would say that if you take anything prescribed by the good doctor that it would then probably be a good idea to get away from him as soon as possible, especially if you are at his Colorado compound where there is an ample supply of firearms and explosives.

[cher3]

Someone asked about Dr. versus Professor. A professor is someone who is employed in that capacity by a college or university. He/she usually has a Ph.D. as well.

[Chegg]

According to Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, Hunter S. Thompson is a doctor of journalism -- i.e, he has a PhD.

No clue about Julius Erving.

[retsin2000]

HST may have an honorary doctorate but he hasn't earned one. It's been awhile since I read The Proud Highway, a collection of HST's letters, but I believe he learned journalism in the military and does not have a college degree. I think he attended Vanderbilt for a time. This is from memory so caveat emptor.

[Una Persson]

If you want to see another thread now over in Great Debates about misuse of a professional title, then click here:

Why Can't Engineers Like Anthracite Get No Respect (wait, that's not the title...) (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=37020&pagenumber=1)

[Ukulele Ike]

I personally feel that really smokin' bluegrass fingerpickers should be allowed and even encouraged to call themselves "Doctor."

"...on mandolin and vocals...Doctor Samuel Bush! On banjo...Doctor Bela Fleck! On dobro...Doctor Gerald Douglas!"

[Orshee]

Originally posted by KellyM
It is illegal to call yourself "Doctor" if you do so for the purpose of deceiving someone as to your skills, qualifications, or credentials, where such deception would amount to fraud.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. So why does Dr. Laura get away with it? She has a PhD in physiology but she represents herself as a therapist. Isn't that fraud?

[zen101]

Originally posted by Maxwell Edison
There's Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, although you should be cautious taking anything he prescribes.

"I'm a doctor of journalism god dammit and I demand some respect!"

-Hunter.S,

[KellyM]

Originally posted by Orshee
Originally posted by KellyM
It is illegal to call yourself "Doctor" if you do so for the purpose of deceiving someone as to your skills, qualifications, or credentials, where such deception would amount to fraud.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. So why does Dr. Laura get away with it? She has a PhD in physiology but she represents herself as a therapist. Isn't that fraud?
I have to understand that Dr. Laura has some state certification as a mental health professional, although not as a psychologist or psychiatrist. While I have not personally confirmed this or seen it from a source I would consider authoritative, if this is true then she would be entitled to call herself a "therapist".

I do agree that it is somewhat dishonest of her to call herself "Doctor" while presenting herself as a therapist, since doing so tends to lead one to the conclusion that she is a psychologist or a psychiatrist. Whether this should be illegal probably depends on your opinion of Dr. Laura. :)

[Snooooopy]

I would like to refer to myself as "Dr. Love."

[Lynn Bodoni]

Originally posted by Maxwell Edison
There's Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, although you should be cautious taking anything he prescribes.

OK, I gotta know something that's been bothering me ever since I first saw your handle...ME, are you majoring in medicine? Should I never turn my back on you?

I believe (and here we're getting into IMHO territory) that "Dr." Laura is committing a fraud in practice, whether or not she's committing a fraud in the eyes of the law.

[SSgtBaloo]

Originally posted by Orshee
Originally posted by KellyM
It is illegal to call yourself "Doctor" if you do so for the purpose of deceiving someone as to your skills, qualifications, or credentials, where such deception would amount to fraud. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. So why does Dr. Laura get away with it? She has a PhD in physiology but she represents herself as a therapist. Isn't that fraud? Actually, Dr. Laura repeatedly reminds her listeners that her degree is in physiology, not psychology. Her program is about ethics and morals (her perspective -- not necessarily mine or yours), not psychology. I prefer to listen to Dr. Toni Grant (http://www.drtoni.com/). She's a real psychologist and doesn't jump down the throat of her callers, although she's not above telling someone they're manipulative (or controlling) if they come across that way.

~~Baloo

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Originally posted by Ashleth
HOw can it be illegal to practice law without a license... I thought you were allowed to defend yourself in court... If thats not practicing law, I'm not quite sure what is?

I've got a question relating to this whole Dr. thing... Why do biology PhD's often use the title doctor, while chemists use professor?
I was never aware of this difference between biology and chemistry professors. At UCLA and UCSD we addressed our
professors as "Dr X", unless, as very often was the case, they asked us to call them by their first names. This is California, after all.

We'd talk about them as "Professor X", but I almost never heard anyone address them as Professor X.

[galt]

I'm sure Mr. Pibb has occasionally been tempted to pretend he has a doctorate degree, but his conscience has held him back. One wonders whether his better-known colleague, Dr. Pepper, would be in the position he is without the title...

[DoctorJ]

Dr. J

I've never heard anyone ask for his credentials.
You rang? :)

There is considerable debate on this subject when it comes to medical students. Some people (mostly the younger folks) believe that you shouldn't call someone "Dr." until he has an M.D. There are others who believe that since we're wearing the white coat, performing in the capacity of a doctor, and just a year or two away from it, that it's OK.
My textbook on medical interviewing, in fact, says that it's OK for medical students to insist that patients call them "Doctor". I disagree--I would never insist on that, and I am always careful to tell patients that "I'm just a student" when they call me "Doctor". They usually shrug it off and call me that anyway. I don't mind--I kind of like the ego boost, really. (If they ask what to call me, I tell them, "Just don't call me late for dinner." That still slays the E. Kentucy folks.)

Ukulele Ike:
I personally feel that really smokin' bluegrass fingerpickers should be allowed and even encouraged to call themselves "Doctor."

"...on mandolin and vocals...Doctor Samuel Bush! On banjo...Doctor Bela Fleck! On dobro...Doctor Gerald Douglas!"
You mean like "Dr. Ralph Stanley"? He got an honorary Ph. D. from somewhere at some point, and actually uses the "Dr." title. He's a legend, but he's the most shameless self-promoter I've ever seen.

BTW, Messrs. Fleck, Bush, and Douglas, along with Bryan Sutton, Mark Schatz, and Stuart Duncan, are touring together briefly in the next few weeks. One of the stops is here in Lexington, as part of the folk music series that I volunteer for. I'll gloat all about it afterwards. :)

"Dr." J

[August West]

I demand that Dr. Demento produce credentials attesting to his professional standing immediately, or we force him off the air.

Hell, let's just force him off the air anyway.

[Mr. Sheepshead]

..but until then, I feel if you must give yourself a special title, you should try Reverend. I love getting mail addressed to the Reverend Joseph P. McKnight, Church of Joe. Makes the junk mail more interesting.

Plus when you look through the old high school student directory, you see "McKnight, Reverend Joseph P.". And it makes people think the kid who went around carving pentagrams into the heads of all the pictures of Einstein in the Physics lab has finally seen the light. heh heh heh...

[light strand]

I agree with CalMeecham Ph.D on my business cards. Dr. only to my (former) students and when I'm feeling pompous.

In addition I don't call myself Dr. because with the assumption of an M.D. also comes the invariable questions about health. Personally, I really don't care to hear about your hemorrhoids.

[Markxxx]

One might have to be careful. In some state, like Illinois, it is against the law to present yourself as something you're not. That is why you, for instance, can't wear a police uniform. It has been used in the past to prosecute cross-dressers (representing yourself as a woman-if you're a man)

But what if you change your first name to Doctor? Or if you're folks name you that?

[DrDoom]

This doctor vs professor thing is a little confusing to me. What does it mean in Germany if someone is refered to as:
Herr Doktor Professor Ing (whatever) vs Herr Doktor?

[KellyM]

Originally posted by Markxxx
One might have to be careful. In some state, like Illinois, it is against the law to present yourself as something you're not. That is why you, for instance, can't wear a police uniform. It has been used in the past to prosecute cross-dressers (representing yourself as a woman-if you're a man)
Most states have stopped enforcing or have repealed laws that are used in that general a way -- there are serious constitutional implications. The Stonewall riots resulted from NYPD harassment of crossdressers under a NY law which was interpreted to forbid crossdressing.

It is illegal to wear a police uniform because there are specific laws that prohibit impersonating a police officer. Laws which prohibit impersonation generally are probably unconstititional unless the statute requires proving an intent to defraud as part of the offense.

[Short]

Here is the great State of Washington, the law is as follows (RCW 18.71.021)

No person may practice or represent himself or herself as practicing medicine without first having
a valid license to do so.

it is also illegal to represent yourself as a naturopathic doctor (RCW 18.36A.030)

(1) No person may practice naturopathy or represent himself or herself as a naturopath without first applying for and receiving a license from the secretary to practice naturopathy.
(2) A person represents himself or herself as a naturopath when that person adopts or uses any title or any description of services that incorporates one or more of the following terms or designations: Naturopath or doctor of naturopathic medicine.


as well as a psychologist, an architect or (effect July, 2001) a geologist.

On the flip side, I did know someone here in WA who used to call himself on official documents the Reverend Doctor... MD, PhD, ThD. I don't think he had any of them, but was never prosecuted. My guess the only time you'd really get prosecuted is if you tried calling yourself "Doctor" in a hospital, accident scene etc.. That is use the title to pass yourself as a doctor. Anybody see Mr. Bean the movie?

I don't see anything forbidding the use of "Senator" or "the Honorable." In fact, I think I'll use one of them next time I make dinner reservations.

[Dr.Pinky]

My degrees are in disinformation (with a minor in forgery), crptozoology, and ancient Byzantine philately. I'm also a pope of the church of the visible pink foreskin, but I won't insist on the full "His High Holy Rev. Dr. Pinky Pope" title... no need to get *ludicrous* or anything...

[Stimpy]

How about 'Sir'? I get letters all the time that begin 'Dear Sir...'. Now, lets say I wanted an extra half hour in the swimming pool after my particular rubber band (blue) had run out. Could I not say my name was Sir Stimpy in order to swing some lee-way my way?

[Colibri]

Originally posted by DrDoom
This doctor vs professor thing is a little confusing to me. What does it mean in Germany if someone is refered to as:
Herr Doktor Professor Ing (whatever) vs Herr Doktor?

As someone else stated, "Doctor" merely indicates a professional (or honorary) degree: M.D., Ph.D., D.D.S., D.V.M., etc.

"Professor" is an academic rank at a college or university: full professor, associate professor, and assistant professor.

These days, vitually all professors also have doctorates, at least in the U.S., although that wasn't always the case. In many other countries one can be a professor without having a doctorate.

However, many doctors are not professors. I have a Ph.D., but since I don't work at a university, I am not a professor, and I have to correct people when they address me as such.

The only time I identify myself as "Dr." outside of professional contexts is when I'm having a dispute with a credit card company or the phone company, on the theory that they might actually take me more seriously.

I can't speak about the system in Germany, but I assume it's the same. But Germans like to lard on the honorifics, so they will address you by all the titles you are entitled to.

BTW, DrDoom, what's your doctorate in? Are you also Professor Doom?

As we used to say in grad school:
B.S. = Bull Shit
M.S. = More Shit
Ph.D. = Piled higher and Deeper

[(Tim)]

I can refer to myself as Dr. (X), where X=Tim, but I do have a doctorate. :)
But seriously, I tend to agree with Colibri; I'll answer to either Mr. or Dr. in practice. It's occasionally useful in knowing quickly if a phone call is unimportant, as friends/family will call me by my first name, professional contacts will use Dr., and people trying to sell me something or taking surveys will use Mr.

[SuaSponte]

'Course, I have the opposite problem. If I were to refer to myself as Doctor, I would get weird looks, despite the fact that I hold a doctorate (and the three stripes on my robe to prove it).

SuaSponte, J.D.

[DrDoom]

Originally posted by Colibri
BTW, DrDoom, what's your doctorate in? Are you also Professor Doom?

Geez Colibri, I was lucky to get through high school!

The reason for my German analogy was that maybe they have been doing this for a longer time than us and might give us a clue as to the origin of salutations, particularly Doctor. As you said, the Germans are very much into this kind of thing. I may not understand their logic, but they seem to call M.S. and M.D.'s, Doktor, Ph.D.'s, at least in engineering, Doktor Professor, regardless of their university association. But I real don't know, just my recollection?

[Colibri]

Just kidding DrDoom. I wasn't sure whether you were an associate of Dr. Kevorkian or a super-villian.

I certainly can't speak from personal experience about German usage, but in a German course I took they did mention the German habit of piling on the honorifics. (Imagine addressing someone as Mister Doctor Professor Smith in English.) Certainly usage of Professor is loose in the U.S, and will often be used for anyone with an advanced degree or any higher academic position. But I would expect Germans to take a lot of care about that sort of thing.

[Jodi]

But, SUA, do you think as highly of your (Juris) Doctorate as you do of Ph.Ds? I mean in terms of effort in getting it, and prestige from having it. Just curious.

I'd only add that, in law, you get the Doctorate then the Masters (if you keep going) then the Ph.D. (for hard-core academics only). I've always considered my degree to be the functional equivalent of a Masters, but not on the same level as a Ph.D. in another subject. It certainly didn't take as long to get, and I didn't have to write a dissertation (neener neener neener). ;)

[Billdo]

Originally posted by Jodi
I'd only add that, in law, you get the Doctorate then the Masters (if you keep going) then the Ph.D. (for hard-core academics only). I've always considered my degree to be the functional equivalent of a Masters, but not on the same level as a Ph.D. in another subject. It certainly didn't take as long to get, and I didn't have to write a dissertation (neener neener neener). ;)

Actually, Jodi, that's because the J.D. is actually a renamed bachelors degree. Originally, the degree granted on the completion of law school was the LL.B. (bachelor of laws). If you look at the c.v. of some older lawyers or senior law professors, you will see that they often have a B.A. or B.S. and a LL.B.

I believe that this dates back to the period when an undergraduate bachelors was not required for law school. Because a law degree could be the initial academic degree granted, it was properly a bachelor's degree. The "advanced" law degrees, LL.M. (masters of law) and S.J.D. (doctor of juridical science) or LL.D. (doctor of laws, though I think I've only seen this as an honorary degree) were ones received after one's "bachelors."

The story that I've heard is that sometime in the 1950's or 60's some clever lawyers figured out that federal government employees that held a doctoral degree were paid much more than similarly-ranked ones with merely a bachelors. They convinced the law schools to award a J.D. (Juris Doctor) as their initial degree in lieu of the LL.B. I also understand that the schools allowed LL.B. holders to upgrade their LL.B.'s to J.D.'s if necessary.

The custom of not referring to J.D.'s as "doctor" probably stems from the historical basis of this doctoral degree. Also, it would have been anomalous for the younger lawyers with "doctoral" degrees to be called "doctor", while the more senior ones retaining their bachelors would not be entitled to such a title.

I understand that in Germany and many other continental European countries attorneys usually have a full-blown doctoral degrees and are usually referred to professionally as "Doctor."

In law school, we generally referred to our professors as "Professor," except for one particularly pompous fellow who had a Ph.D. as well as a law degree who was insistent that he be called "Doctor."

[Milton De La Warre]

Dr Doom:
I understand that one of the Nazis who was in charge of some nefarious activities on a section of the Eastern Front held two Doctorates and so was in German practice properly (and often) called "Doctor Doctor X."

[Billdo]

My understanding is that the Germans are quite careful and precise about academic titles.

I have an uncle that holds both M.D. and Ph.D. degrees. He was lecturing in Germany at one point. When his sponsors found out he had two doctorates rather than one, they felt compelled to reprint a bunch of materials to change his title from "Prof. Dr." to "Prof. Dr. Dr."