Gee, you're the neighbors I want!

[MissTake]

I posted here (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9846903&postcount=90) about my moms neighbors.

She did call the city about the garbage stench - they came out and ticketed the neighbors. I called child protection on the toddler sleeping in the shed, but at this time they can't do anything but note it. If anyone calls CPS again they will investigate. (Note: I am a mandatory reporter. The peeing in the yard I can overlook. Sleeping in an unventilated shed? No).

Sunday afternoon Mom was mowing her back yard when she was yelled at to shut it off. Thinking it was my nephew still in his guard uniform she glanced at the guy, nodded, and kept mowing. The guy came closer and she realized it was not nephew coming to help, but rather a cop with his gun drawn. Turning off the mower she realized there was six cops, guns drawn, yelling at her to not move.

Let me note: Mom is a tiny thing. 5'1", maybe 100#, and 70 years old. She's also starting to deal with senility issues.

Someone called 911 and reported a fight and shots fired at her address. She asked who reported such a thing - they said someone on a card phone - does she have one? She had NO idea what a card phone is (still doesn't). They ended up going through every room and closet in her house to make sure everything was kosher.

While she was waiting for the police to tromp through her house - "AND THEY HAD THEIR SHOES ON!! - she looked out the kitchen window to see one of the neighbor kids looking at her and laughing. She pointed that out to one of the police, but by the time he got outside, the kid had taken off.

When Mom was telling me about that she mentioned her mailbox was open on Saturday, which confused her ("I'm sure I closed it"). She has some OCD issues, which leads her to checking everything 2 - 3 times to make sure its' closed/locked. Her leaving a mailbox open is tantamount to my leaving a cheesecake untouched. Usually she is there when the mail carrier arrives, but Saturday she wasn't. She has no idea whether they have been taking her mail, but she did say that over the past few months a few letters she was expecting have "disappeared" and a gift from her brother-in-law never showed up. Because of the senility issues which she knows she has, she didn't want to say anything.

I know it's just conjecture on our behalf. But the mail missing started not too long after the last time Mom told them to quit urinating against her fence.

So a huge fuck you, neighborinos. 12 against 1. Mom has been in her house for 26 years, and thanks to you and your residing next door for less than a year she is afraid. She can't enjoy the yard she and Dad worked so hard on due to the stench of unrine and garbage. She can't relax in her front yard because the eldest woman will come out and screech at her. Fuck you sideways.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Wife of veteran letter carrier here. Missing mail? Suspected thievery? Contact your local postmaster toot suite, who will sic the Postal Inspectors on your problem neighbors. They are now toast. You do not fuck with the U.S. Mails.

They can also assist your mom in getting a USPS-approved lockable mailbox, which work like this (http://www.seattleluxe.com/scstore/buyers-guide-mailboxes.php), or a PO Box.

[AuntiePam]

Sunday afternoon Mom was mowing her back yard when she was yelled at to shut it off. Thinking it was my nephew still in his guard uniform she glanced at the guy, nodded, and kept mowing. The guy came closer and she realized it was not nephew coming to help, but rather a cop with his gun drawn. Turning off the mower she realized there was six cops, guns drawn, yelling at her to not move.


Ferchrissake! She could have gotten hurt! Can you go to the police station and explain what's going on so the cops have a heads-up? Or write them a letter -- something.

It sounds like your mom could use a housemate, or a health aide, or someone checking on her regularly. Who knows what those fuckwad neighbors will try next?

Damn!!!

[KneadToKnow]

Contact your local postmaster toot suite, who will sic the Postal Inspectors on your problem neighbors. They are now toast. You do not fuck with the U.S. Mails.
Seconded. It's time to introduce these asshats to the meaning of the words "federal offense."

[Harriet the Spry]

That sucks. The fraudulent 911 call may be some kind of offense, too. And with the calls on tape it's not like it would be impossible to investigate and trace it to the neighbor kids, if that's who it was.

[MsWhatsit]

I'll third sic'ing the postal inspectors on these jokers. Also, this sounds like the kind of thing that the local news media might be interested in doing a story on. Ours seems to eat up this sort of "elderly woman minding her own business wronged by neighbors; police do nothing!" story.

[E-Sabbath]

Card phone: Prepaid minutes, no account linked. Possible to trace it to the 7-11 it was bought at, but if the kid paid cash...

Of course, that's only if that's the only call made on that phone.

[JustAnotherGeek]

OK. I think you need to get some help for your mom. I would be very afraid for her. Not that the neighbors will do something directly to her; from your description, they seem too sneaky to try anything overt. But I would bet that they will absolutely continue the little games that they can get away with. If you call CPS, they'll make a false 911 call. It's not going to get better, EVER, as long as they are there. You and your mother are going to have a fight every time you turn around.

Please call in the big guns now. The police have been there once for a false call. I don't know what kind of burg you're in, but if there's anyway to get to know them better, I certainly would. I'd start by going in and complaining about the mail / mailbox issue. Yeah, I know, it's the wrong place. But they'll have a record of you on hand for the next time they get a false call. Establish a rapport. The police will come to know what's going on and who is responsible for it.

As for the mail; once you talk to the police, and they send you to the postal inspectors, follow up that day. Do not delay. I'd seriously think about taking tomorrow off, even at the cost of a day's pay (if that applies).

These folks have already given you the absolutely clear signal that they will do anything in their power to harass you. The only good news is that their power is limited; the only hope for the future is that their power will become more and more limited the quicker you act.

Good luck,
-Geek

[Harriet the Spry]

Card phone: Prepaid minutes, no account linked. Possible to trace it to the 7-11 it was bought at, but if the kid paid cash...

Of course, that's only if that's the only call made on that phone.

If you have no idea who made the call, I agree, it's a stumper. But if you are pretty sure it's the neighbor's 12 year old, and the call on tape sounds just like him, it's not such a mystery.

[Shayna]

They can also assist your mom in getting a USPS-approved lockable mailbox, which work like this (http://www.seattleluxe.com/scstore/buyers-guide-mailboxes.php), or a PO Box. Make sure she tests every single option she looks at by sticking her own hand in the opening to see if she can reach the bottom. If she can, pass it up. I tested more than a dozen and could get my hand all the way inside almost every single one, which makes the locking feature completely useless. This (http://www.mailboxes.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Mailboxes&category%5Fname=Mail+Houses&product%5Fid=374&parent%5Fcategory%5Fname=Residential+Mailboxes&Related_Product=&sCondition=&Previous=yes) is the one we ended up with (though we bought it locally, not through that online vendor).

I'm so sorry she's going through this. Is there a homeowner's association? If so, perhaps a call to them is in order, too. I wish her the best of luck. Keep us posted so we know when the rotten neighbors are forced to move out!

[Shayna]

Please call in the big guns now. The police have been there once for a false call. I don't know what kind of burg you're in, but if there's anyway to get to know them better, I certainly would. I'd start by going in and complaining about the mail / mailbox issue. Yeah, I know, it's the wrong place. But they'll have a record of you on hand for the next time they get a false call. Establish a rapport. The police will come to know what's going on and who is responsible for it. This made me think of something -- to really get to know the local police officers and build a rapport with them, your mom could look into whether her local police department offers a "Citizens Police Academy" and sign up for the next session. Here are some examples from the Minnesota area:

Rochester Citizen Police Academy (http://www.rochestermn.gov/departments/police/crimeprevention/academy.asp)
Sartell Metro Citizens Police Academy (http://www.sartellmn.com/police/police_citizens_academy.htm)
Prior Lake Citizens Police Academy (http://www.cityofpriorlake.com/police_citizens_police_academy.shtml)
St. Paul Citizen Police Academy (http://www.stpaul.gov/index.asp?NID=589)

Don't be intimidated by its title -- it's primarily classroom study. Ours also offered a ride-along and an evening at a real firing range, but every activity is voluntary and can be sat out if one isn't comfortable with it. It's a wonderful program. Something like this could be of great benefit to her on any number of levels.

[Harmonious Discord]

A surveillance camera would so help because of the habitual problem behavior. I would try to set one up covering the mail box and the yard to record the defecation, peeing, and theft that goes on. Call the cops when you have enough evidence spanning days of these activities. You don't want to alert them right off the bat that their illegal activities are being recorded. look into local ordinances defining quantity and relationship of house occupants that can live in a single family residential home. I'll bet they are housing too many people. It sounds like the kids might eventually do something they would get away with back home that is dangerous to your mother.

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

This is horrible. I wish I had some good advice, but it looks like you've got some here to work with. I hope you keep up up to date.

[Tristan]

You are a far better person than I.

Mysterious house fires happen to trashy neighbors all the damn time, imo.

[Wile E]

I second everything that has been said, rapport with the cops, report to post office, get a locking mail box and get a surveillance camera. They have many inexpensive cameras these days, there's nothing like catching the little twerps on films.

[Wile E]

Oh, and put in a privacy fence and grow a nice fragrant vine on it.

[KneadToKnow]

You are a far better person than I.

Mysterious house fires happen to trashy neighbors all the damn time, imo.
I've said it before ... if arson weren't such a great solution to so many problems, it wouldn't be illegal.


:)

[Sunspace]

Oh, and put in a privacy fence and grow a nice fragrant vine on it.Not a vine. Plant rosebushes. Rosebushes with exquisitely-beautiful blossoms... and nice long thorns.

[Morgyn]

Not a vine. Plant rosebushes. Rosebushes with exquisitely-beautiful blossoms... and nice long thorns.Many years ago, a friend told me that he'd read an article (Scientific America? Popular Science? something like that) saying that the Japanese had developed a bush for planting around their secure installations (they wanted something that looked nicer than chain link fence with razor wire). According to him, the thing grew very, very fast, had long (6 inches or so) and very sharp thorns, and the canes were so strong and tangled that a chainsaw was required to cut it back. Wish I knew what it was (or whether it actually exists), because it sounds like it would be an ... interesting solution. Not as fragrant as the roses, but pointer.

[Shayna]

Not a vine. Plant rosebushes. Rosebushes with exquisitely-beautiful blossoms... and nice long thorns. No, no; poison ivy. That'll teach 'em to whip their little dicks out against her fence! :D

[MissTake]

She stated she was going to go look into getting a PO Box today. I went to the USPS website and they're pretty affordable for what she needs. Originally I had suggested just making sure she stops mail when up at the cabin, but after the hoohah Sunday - no. I haven't spoken with her tonight, but presume I will in the morning and will double check whether she made the switch or not.

When the neighbors first moved in they seemed pretty decent. Mom welcomed them, always said hello, was actually quite interested in learning about their culture. However, at that time there were only 5 people living in the three bedroom house. As noted in the OP there are now 12, we think. Mom stated this afternoon that is supposedly a newborn, but she hasn't heard/seen her in a week. The baby's mother is the chronic urinator and for the first two weeks the baby was always in a sling on her back. She and the little boy are still sleeping in the shed.

Mom does have a very nice 6' privacy fence, which works when she's in the basement. The house is a split level and her kitchen window overlooks their entire backyard and side of the garage/garbage area. The deck also overlooks their backyard. The kitchen is the heart of her home. We *used* to go over and just sit at the kitchen table all night, playing cards and yammering. Much to her dismay we're now having to sit on the "company" sofa (IOW only company can sit there).

WRT the Sunday episode - I was talking to a friend whose hubby is a cop in a neighboring city. He also suggested she call and talk to the lead cop that was at her door and further explain the situation. He wants her to take the initiative, but stated he would also put in a word. My sister and her husband are fairly active in another neighboring city police force (as reserves) and stated they would get the word out. My eldest nephew lives less than a mile from her and is over almost every day, as she babysits his kids. He stated he would make more of an effort to swing by when he's not working. My youngest nephew also stated he would be more of a presence. AND mom confirmed she paid up the security company for another year.

When Dad died she promised to stay in the house a year. It's almost a year and a half. The neighborhood is changing and she believes she cannot trust any neighbors (there are a few who will step in if need be, I know, but she doesn't believe it). The only place she wants to move to is the cabin, but how the hell will she fit a 2500 square foot home into a 1000 square foot cabin? Thats beside the fact that it would need a lot of work to be year around livable and she would be an hour away. She is not wealthy, the housing market sucks, and she doesn't want to be forced out of her home.

There is a community action group - I will call them tomorrow. For the most part they tend to deal with the other side of the city which is well known for it's gang activity. Adding to it all, Mom feels that because the neighbors are relatively recent immigrants much of what she complains about is explained as "cultural differences". When I was talking to the social worker (when I called CPS), she confirmed that some issues get explained away in that manner.

Yanno, my mom is a tough old bird. She's been through quite a bit in the past 5 years. Granted, the neighbors have been through a hell of a lot, leaving a war torn country, attempting to assimilate to an extent, learn the language, but I guess I don't really give a rats' ass about what they've been through. They're fucking with my mom.

[SomeUserName]

It is sort of hard to feel sorry for them as immigrants if they can make illegal 911 calls.

I hope the police and the community action group can help her.

[Nava]

Peeing on the fence isn't a cultural difference :(

[Surly Chick]

I don't understand why CPS won't do anything about a child sleeping in a garden shed! :confused:

[lobotomyboy63]

A surveillance camera would so help because of the habitual problem behavior. I would try to set one up covering the mail box and the yard to record the defecation, peeing, and theft that goes on. Call the cops when you have enough evidence spanning days of these activities. You don't want to alert them right off the bat that their illegal activities are being recorded. look into local ordinances defining quantity and relationship of house occupants that can live in a single family residential home. I'll bet they are housing too many people. It sounds like the kids might eventually do something they would get away with back home that is dangerous to your mother.

I was going to post that you should get a surveillance cam, too. Thing is, let's say your mom actually *sees* them take the mail one day. 1) It's her word against theirs, and 2) she's a questionable witness because of the senility issue.

Likewise, I think it would be good to get her a simple-to-use camera because you can't have a (fixed) camera pointed at every spot where they might do something.

I'd be sly and surreptitious about it...you wouldn't want them to take it as a challenge because they outnumber her. Catch them dead to rights, with ample evidence, before putting the smackdown on them.

Finally, if possible, could you sound out the other neighbors? If it isn't only your mom they're hassling (and it probably isn't), then it isn't just her word against theirs.

[Jurph]

Adding to it all, Mom feels that because the neighbors are relatively recent immigrants much of what she complains about is explained as "cultural differences". When I was talking to the social worker (when I called CPS), she confirmed that some issues get explained away in that manner.

Fuck their differences: pissing on a fence and putting your kid out in the shed at night isn't "culture" and it's against the laws here in America. Japanese immigrants don't commit seppuku if they are embarrassed by their boss; Chinese immigrants don't go around building giant stone walls around their property; Celtic immigrants don't make a Wicker Man every solstice and burn their undesirable neighbors.

America sets the bar pretty fucking low for what is and isn't acceptable behavior. The neighbors need to meet the rest of us halfway, or go home.

[Eutychus]

Celtic immigrants don't make a Wicker Man every solstice and burn their undesirable neighbors.

Well ... MOST of us don't. :D

[phouka]

When it comes to conflicting cultural differences, I like General Napier's take on it, when he was stationed in colonial India and came up against the practice of sati (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutee):

You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.

[Caffeine.addict]

If there are twelve people living in that house, that may be a violation of a housing code. I know that some of the Virginia counties were cracking down on people for doing that.

Are they renters or owners? That could make a difference as the landlord or owner could be fined for violations of zoning. If they are using the yard as a toilet, it would be a safe bet to assume that they are probably trashing the property, os it could be in the landlord's interest to come in and check.

[Dinsdale]

We've had neighbor and neighborhood problems - tho nowhere near as bad as your mom's. It can be a really REALLY tough situation. As I see it, you basically have 3 options:
1. Figure out how to live with it, making reasonable changes as necessary. This would involve getting a locking mailbox/PO Box, installing a security camera or 2, and basically turning a blind eye to that whole side of your property. Your ability to enjoy your home on your own terms will be somewhat reduced, but dealing with the neighbors will not become the defining aspect of your life.
2. Go to war. The goal here is to try to get the neighbors to change their behavior, and to allow you to continue living as you had, and wish to continue. Call the cops/authorities every time there is a problem. Get a PO Box, install cameras and motion detectors. Some people may get some satisfaction out of this approach, by feeling they are not allowing themselves to get pushed around. But it requires a constant effort.
3. Move. Many folk oppose this route, thinking "But they will have WON!" I say, who cares? No one is keeping score. And if you end up in a situation that is just as good or better, then aren't you the one who will have won?

We'll be moving next year after my youngest finishes HS. It doesn't seems as tho your mom has any such impediments. IMO it is time your mom started thinking about how she wishes to style her future years. Does she want to keep fighting with the neighbors in an attempt to hold on to memories in a changing neighborhood? Or does she want to take positive steps to create the best possible future for herself?

[Wile E]

The problem with moving is that she's not likely to sell or get a good price on the house due to the neighbors. If she abandons the property before selling it it is guaranteed they will trash it.

[Dinsdale]

The problem with moving is that she's not likely to sell or get a good price on the house due to the neighbors.

Yeah, none of the options are without cost - either monetary or emotional.

Sometimes crappy things happen to you through no fault of your own, and you do not have the option of simply having it "go away" at no cost to you. And tho there are remedies available, they generally do a pretty poor job of "making you whole" in terms of putting things back "as they were before."

[NurseCarmen]

Robbinsdale? Brooklyn Center? If it is Anoka County a good friend of mine is a cop up there.

[MissTake]

Robbinsdale? Brooklyn Center? If it is Anoka County a good friend of mine is a cop up there.
It's one of the Brooklyns.

I called the police as a follow up this morning, but the incident has not been entered into their system yet. I guess Sunday was hopping. I asked the desk clerk "You mean the tale of 6 police against an old lady with a lawn mower hasn't made the rounds?" *cough*

Talked to Mom - she has not gone to the post office yet, but swears she will get to it. I asked if, on Sunday, she let the police know what was going on with the neighbors, but they wouldn't listen to her ("He just kept harping on my having a phone card! I have no need for a phone card!")

WRT video cameras - the VCR still blinks 12:00. Yes, I said VCR. She would either lose entire days just watching it, or would never turn it on.

On the positive side, Mom says since Sunday the police have been driving past a few times a day. This morning, around when the bus comes for the neighbor kids, a squad parked between her and the neighbors and just waited for the kids to come out. After the kids got on the bus, he pulled away.

There is a community action group in her city run in conjunction with the police department and housing. I gave Mom the number, and will follow up again in a few days.

[NurseCarmen]

Hennepin county then. Bummer. Were the cops plugging their ears and saying "LA-LA-LA-LA" when she spke with them?

[even sven]

Peeing on the fence isn't a cultural difference :(

Uh, yes it is. In Cameroon, at least, you are allowed to pee pretty much wherever. People are supposed to go off the beaten track to poop, although sometimes this just means the side of the road, and babies poop wherever, though it is promptly cleaned up. Even among Americans it's pretty common at parties or when having friends sleeping over to say "oh, go ahead and pee in the yard if you like." There are cockroaches and snakes in latrines at night and you probably don't want to go there. And for many people used to outdoor latrines, doing your business indoors feels dirty. Because of the climate there is no stink from these practices. I knew a guy working for a dollar a day in Mali who visited Amsterdam and could have moved there. He chose not to because he couldn't deal with the "you can't piss just anywhere" thing. Luckly he didn't have people trying to kill him, so he could choose to stay home.

You'd be in the same problem in their country. In Cameroon, I could not bring myself to sweep my yard every day. Even a sprinkle of fallen leaves is seen there like a pile of festering garbage. But fuck, I just can't bring myself to spend half an hour sweeping when more leaves are just going to fall in a few minutes. This upset people so much they'd come in when I wasn't home and sweep it. But it was one of my few "I'm an American and I'm gonna act like one" moments.

Sleeping in the shed also has some explaination. Where I was the head of household lives in the main house, wives live in single detached rooms (much like sheds- down to the "no windows", ventilation is thought to make you sick) with their children and sometimes there is another room for any young men in the family. There are also certain times when a woman is supposed to go back to her family home for a time (for example, after childbirth.) A woman may feel more comfortable with the privacy that a detaced room would give. A garden shed with a concrete floor and tin roof might even be seen as deluxe accommodations compared to the normal gravel floor and straw roof.

I'm sure Cameroonians thought I was nuts when I used my storage room as an indoor kitchen. Why didn't I just cook outside like a normal person instead of over a gas stove that could blow up the whole neighborhood any minute? And how did I think I was going to survive dry season without a storeroom full of millet?

The bigger question is, why is your mom paying this much attention to where her neighbors are sleeping? Peeing on fences is one thing, but peeping into people's yards at night and noting where they choose to sleep is not really needed.

Anyway, at some point they will need to learn American practices (and obviously they've gone way over the line with their retaliation). But I don't know that calling the police and trying to get their kids taken away was the way to do things. You've got yourself in a little war here over some simple culture problems. And at this rate it's just going to get worse and nobody wins.

There are organizations in most cities dedicated to helping refugees get the hang of their new culture. I know some people who have worked for groups like this, and they do a lot of good- they help people figure out how to get their kids in school, deal with a new culture, learn the language, see their new country, etc. I bet if you contacted them, they could come down and help you resolve this in a way that isn't about attacking each other and leads to everyone understanding where the other is coming from and finding a way that people can be happy.

Anyway, I don't mean to say the complaints aren't valid- they are. Just that there may be better organizations than the police for fixing this. Really, please look into this.

[FriarTed]

Well ... MOST of us don't. :D

The Lord will smite your orchards!!!

[D_Odds]

Anyway, I don't mean to say the complaints aren't valid- they are. Just that there may be better organizations than the police for fixing this. Really, please look into this.Yes, you may want to ring 362-436
You got a lady and you want her gone
But you ain't got the guts
She keeps naggin' at you night 'n' day
Enough to drive you nuts
Pick up the phone, leave her alone
It's time you made a stand
For a fee, I'm happy to be
Your back door man, hey
Sorry even sven, this was this first thing that came to mind when I read your next to last sentence.

[AuntiePam]

There are organizations in most cities dedicated to helping refugees get the hang of their new culture. I know some people who have worked for groups like this, and they do a lot of good- they help people figure out how to get their kids in school, deal with a new culture, learn the language, see their new country, etc. I bet if you contacted them, they could come down and help you resolve this in a way that isn't about attacking each other and leads to everyone understanding where the other is coming from and finding a way that people can be happy.

Anyway, I don't mean to say the complaints aren't valid- they are. Just that there may be better organizations than the police for fixing this. Really, please look into this.

even sven, I don't have any Somali neighbors and probably never will, but thanks for sharing your experience. Ignorance fought.

I wouldn't sweep leaves either. Or wash my stoop. Isn't it the Dutch who are fanatical about clean stoops?