fiercest warriors in history

[prei]

who were the toughest, fiercest warriors of all time? spartans? romans? vandals? huns? mongols? nazi stormtroopers?

by fierce, i mean brave, disciplined, ferocious, tenacious, undaunted by superior forces.

[glee]

it's probably not the answer you want, but a lot of (mainly English) troops died in WW1 charging out of trenches across muddy fields towards fortified machine-gun posts.

As someone said about those troops and their leaders:

'lions led by donkeys'.

[aesop]

You'll probably get a lot of opinions on this subject. History is full of incidents of isolated small groups of people succeeding against overwhelming odds. But if it's a martial culture your after, I'd give the nod to the Gurkhas of Nepal.

The Gurkhas are renowned for their ferocity, fearlessness, and "enjoyment" of hand-to-hand combat, even in modern warfare. The weapon most often associated with them is the khukuri knife, a wicked, heavy blade with a dog-leg bend in it.

Interesting OP. I'm curious to see other opinions.

[mipsman]

For general, endemic pugnaciouness, I vote for the medieval West European "Frank" and his near contemporary, the Japanese samurai.

[Arnold Winkelried]

The Fremen of Arrakis.

[Tristan]

Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried
The Fremen of Arrakis.

Yeah, but Montanans are a naturally ferocious bunch anyways... oh, wait... nevermind...

[Sofa King]

From what I've learned about the Maoris, they were some tough customers. Their descendants gave the Kiwi divisions a much-deserved reputation in WWs one and two.

The Watusi were pretty bad-ass. A combination of remoteness and utter commitment to the warrior life has allowed them to keep their tribal identity to this day. My vote for greatest small-army commander of the last half of century twenty is Paul Kagame, the man who not only stopped the Hutu massacre of the Tutsi people, but kicked the ass of a far larger and better equipped army to boot. (Note: that doesn't make Kagame a good person, just a baaaad mother-shutyourmouth.)

John Keegan has coined a term: "warrior mountain peoples." These peoples, from Gurkhas to Chechens to Afghanis to the various Balkans have proven to be the most dangerous and tenacious fighters, still largely unbeatable even in modern warfare. I'll try to find some of his writing on that.

[Gunslinger]

For modern times:
I'll second the Gurkhas. Nasty SOBs, those mercenary types (and I mean that in a good way). I'll also nominate the French Foreign Legion...they give up any life they may have had before on joining, y'know.

[DrDoom]

If proven results count versus subjective opinions, then the answer would clearly be the Mongols led by Temuchin.

-- DD

[Torgo]

The 1977 Philadelphia Flyers.

[wolfman]

Well I have always been impressed by what I have heard of the Picts, but They were Berserkers, so the disciplined part doesn't really apply. In order to fit in all of your categories I would say the Knights Templar.

[JRDelirious]

Hard to peg, in an across-history type of comparison.

Someone already pointed out the Gurkhas and other mountain-peoples in the sense of living cultures.

From those mentioned in the OP, in antiquity I think the Spartans led the culturally purest warrior lives, but the Mongols the best ones at being warriors (and on the vastest scale). The Romans at the top of their form were the finest *soldiers* and quite capable of unspeakable ferocity (as Larry Gonick wrote: How many languages even need to coin a word for "killed every tenth person" [decimate]?) plus, they kept it up successfully for 8 centuries -- the Huns and Vandals were ferocious but they were up against the Romans at their lamest and half the time were actually fighting the Goths anyway.

The OP mentions "Nazi stormtroopers", but proper storm troops were a late part of a fierce mainstream Germano/Prussian military tradition, and the "nazi" element was just an added pathological factor.

The mentioned-elsewhere Franks and Samurai were "pugnacious" and fierce, but tended to get their shorts up in a knot if someone didn't "fight fair" i.e. their way.

If I were to go to recent historic time (20th. C.) and move away from a classic "warrior culture" towards folks who just did and endured what they had to do and endure under the circumstances, I'd have to also nominate the (North)Vietnamese.

jrd

[DrDoom]

Originally posted by Torgo
The 1977 Philadelphia Flyers.

Maybe I'll have to reconsider my answer ... Dave Schultz vs the Mongols? hmmmm

[Sofa King]

Here's a choice quote from John Keegan's A History of Warfare, page 189:

"...Genghis Khan, questioning his Mongol comrades-in-arms about life's sweetest pleasure and being told it lay in falconry, replied, 'You are mistaken. Man's greatest good fortune is to chase and defeat his enemy, seize his total possessions, leave his married women weeping and wailing, ride his gelding [and] use the bodies of his women as a nightshirt and support.'"

Schwartzenegger fans, take note.

[Arnold Winkelried]

Originally posted by Sofa King
John Keegan has coined a term: "warrior mountain peoples." These peoples, from Gurkhas to Chechens to Afghanis to the various Balkans have proven to be the most dangerous and tenacious fighters

You forgot the swiss mercenaries during the middle ages.

[DrDoom]

Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried
You forgot the swiss mercenaries during the middle ages.

Is Winkelried a Swiss name? Ich weiss nicht?

[woolly]

Originally posted by glee
charging out of trenches across muddy fields towards fortified machine-gun posts.

Very true, courage takes many forms. In much the same manner you could nominate any number of repeated charges against entrenched positions during the American Civil War e.g. Marye's Heights at Fredericksburg.

By all reports that I have seen, the Gurkas are ranked so highly because their reputation doesn't depend on where they are in action. Many heroic stands against numerically or technically superior opposition are "home town players" being able to exploit to full effect their intimate local knowledge of the terrain.

One group that hasn't been mentioned are the Maori of New Zealand who came into conflict with the British late in the colonisation phase. With stone age technology (didn't even have bows and arrows) and captured muskets, they fought the British to a stalemate and negotiated the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840.

[casdave]

The Pathan tribesmen must be worthy of mention here along with the Indian and Pakistani army units involved in last years hand to hand combat in the Himalayas.

I think you have to be able to draw a distinction between the fearsome reputation of the Mongols, which was due largely to their sheer brutality on non-combatants, and the proffessionalism and courage of such as the Ghurkas.

The Romans were better organised than everyone else and one could say they were courageous but this is more than outweighed by their bestial savagery.

Perhaps one should note that the Scots were about as able as any warrior ever was, so effective was their method of attacking massed ranks it took the English years to defeat them and then they adopted the Scottish charge along with Scottish regiments which were used to such devastating effect in the Napoleonic wars.

The Scottish charge was to run at the massed ranks of the enemy but instead of marching in all neatly lined up they went in as a huge informal crowd which made picking out individulas with musket fire difficult, they would stop maybe fifty metres away and fire one round of small arms and while their ememies were still reeling from the shock of it would storm into their ranks windmilling their swords.
It's effect was not just ability to take out the opposition but also the terror and fear that was sent out to observers in other units who would break up and lose good order when their turn came to face the Scots.

The English eventually did learn how to deal with this form of attack by using soldiers who were better trained and had more trust in their fellows to look after each other but the Europeans never did manage to work it out.

[Johanna]

An anecdote about the bravery and discipline of the Gurkhas:

One British commander was asking his Gurkha troops to volunteer for a mission that involved jumping out of a plane. Three of them volunteered.

As he was talking to them, it became clear that they didn't know of the existence of parachutes. Imagine--they were ready to jump without parachutes!

[Zenster]

Originally posted by casdave
Perhaps one should note that the Scots were about as able as any warrior ever was, so effective was their method of attacking massed ranks it took the English years to defeat them and then they adopted the Scottish charge along with Scottish regiments which were used to such devastating effect in the Napoleonic wars.

Seeing as how the Highlander Scots were one of the few people anywhere who were able to repel the the Vikings there may be a grain of truth to what you say.

However, lets talk about a bunch of guys who would sail across oceans in open boats. These same people were also known for burning their boats upon arrival on enemy shores. Talk about motivational training! If you wanted to see home again, you'd better frickkin' win!

Considering the wide range of territory the Vikings prowled and the considerable amount of @ss that they kicked, my vote goes with them.

Me being half Danish has nothing to do with it.

[Guinastasia]

My vote goes to the Celts and the Cossacks.

[Chronos]

Might I also make mention of the Apaches? I don't know if they're number one, but they're certainly up there.

And DrDoom, Winkelried is about as Swiss a name as Washington or Revere is American. The namesake of my fellow moderator was one of the greatest heros of the Swiss war of independence, who "made way for Liberty" by gathering the enemy's spears into his own body. Understandably, Arnold's a bit biased in this matter.

[Dignan]

Navy SEALs. Those guys are BAD ASSES, I saw this guy on the history channel telling a story about how they were on patrol or something, they ended up shooting at someone. The guy got shot in his hand and looks down at the bloody mess that was his hand. He thinks he sees the bullet sticking out of his hand still, so he decides to pull it out with his teeth. Turns out it wasn't the bullet but a bone, it caused him a lot of pain, but he just kept on fighting. Maybe that's just stupidity, but I think you have to be a total bad ass and adopt the bad asstic mentality to be a SEAL.

[Alessan]

Fierceness is highly overrated. Professionalism, motivation and brains is what ultimately wins battles.

[douglips]

Originally posted by Alessan
Fierceness is highly overrated. Professionalism, motivation and brains is what ultimately wins battles.

Which of course reminds me (coming as it does from Alessan) of the Israeli armed forces. Talk about motivation! They seem to have done OK against the Arab nations massed against them in the past. I don't know if that qualifies as 'fierce', though.

[DrDoom]

Originally posted by Chronos
And DrDoom, Winkelried is about as Swiss a name as Washington or Revere is American. The namesake of my fellow moderator was one of the greatest heros of the Swiss war of independence, who "made way for Liberty" by gathering the enemy's spears into his own body. Understandably, Arnold's a bit biased in this matter.

Chronos .. deepest apologies to Arnold .. his posts are great! But something just struck me as terribly funny for some reason ... "swiss mercenaries - fiercest warriors in history" ... sorry

-- DD

[Arnold Winkelried]

And what's so funny about that, pray tell? :mad:

My esteemed and loyal friend Chronos has accurately described the great Winkelried. You can read a touching account of his story, guaranteed to bring tears to your eyes, here:
THE BATTLE OF SEMPACH (http://www.digital.library.upenn.edu/women/yonge/deeds/sempach.html)

And swiss mercenaries were amongst the most prized soldiers in Europe from approx. 1515 (the defeat at Marignan that marked the beginning of the de facto policy of neutrality of the Helvetic confederation) to 1874 when the Swiss constitution forbade recruitment of Swiss by foreign powers (volunteering in a foreign army was made illegal in 1927), with the exception of course of the fearsome swiss guards of the Vatican who have struck terror in the hearts of many pizza-eating tourists in the capital of Catholicism since their inception in 1505.

__________________
It did depend on one indeed;
Behold him, -- Arnold Winkelried!
There sounds not to the trump of fame
The echo of a nobler name.
(James Montgomery, The Patriot's Password)

[casdave]

Part of the effectiveness of the Swiss Army was their willingness to equip their soldiers with crossbows.

Many European nations outlawed them as their leaders saw the potential for assasination and did not trust their subjects.

Even when the musket was invented the crossbow had a higher rate of fire, was silent and more accurate.

They could take down the enemy hundreds of yards away with an accuracy that longbows could not match.

[DrDoom]

Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried
My esteemed and loyal friend Chronos has accurately described the great Winkelried. You can read a touching account of his story, guaranteed to bring tears to your eyes, here:
THE BATTLE OF SEMPACH (http://www.digital.library.upenn.edu/women/yonge/deeds/sempach.html)

The prose in the above referenced article was great and you are right, I was definitely tearing up! I'm sure Khan would have too if he had had a chance to read it.

-- DD

[ExTank]

CasDave: a paraphrase lifted from Niel Gaimon's and Terry Pratchet's Good Omens: The Nice And Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch:

"...the Scots, locked in eternal combat with their mortal enemies, the Scots...'

[labdude]

Originally posted by Alessan
Fierceness is highly overrated. Professionalism, motivation and brains is what ultimately wins battles.

As a As a southerner I would also add money, food, water, bullets, steel, ...... Basic supply lines are the most important part of any military operation.

Douglips,
Before you praise the Israeli forces, and denigrate the Arab forces you need to consider the above.

[Scylla]

The Sacred Band of ancient Thebes is a pretty strong candidate for fiercest of all time.

[Alessan]

As a As a southerner I would also add money, food, water, bullets, steel, ...... Basic supply lines are the most important part of any military operation.


... and technological superiority, and efficient lines of communication, and a clearly defined chain of command, and proper Intelligence\counter-Intelligence, and effective implementation of combined armed tactics, and initiative, and competant leadership...

For sure - all those and much more. But I believe the OP referred to the level of the individual soldier, not the military as a whole.

[Tomcat]

A group not mentioned yet are the Kalistas from the Philipines. As the story goes, these are the ones that gave the US Marines their nick-name "Leather-Necks" because of their habit of jumping out of the jungle and slicing the throats of their heavily-armed enemies (this was during the Sapnish-American war I guess). So the Marines made leather collars for protection. The Kalista warriors would shave their bodies, dress in white, wrap wire around their arms, legs and testicles to prevent death by blood loss, take some funky drug, and then raid the camps using swords made from flattened oil barrels.

Going further back in time they proved to be a menace to Spaniards who laughed at the natives wanting to fight with sticks...up until the point where the Spanish sword was bent or snapped in two by said iron-wood stick (great stuff, they use it for axles these days, doesn't float and hurts like hell when accidentally dropped on one's foot).

Going further back than that we come to the most famous victim of Kalista wrath: Magellan. He raped and pillaged a village or three while the village men were off hunting. One singular returning hunter swam out to the boat, climbed on board, fought his way through the crew, and killed Magellan.

Kali is now being taught at various martial arts schools, primarilly along side Eskrima(which is pretty much the same as Kali I gather, but from a different region), JKD and other non-traditional martial arts. My instructor has taught Navy SEALS, Secret Service, FBI, body guards and the local police department. Its a neat weapons-based martial art, I recommend it!

How much of the above is fact vs. myth I honestly have no clue...It sounds plausible though.

[Johanna]

What's so funny about Swiss mercenary soldiers? Easy.

George Bernard Shaw's play Arms and the Man, that's what.

Shaw used the character of the Swiss mercenary Bluntschli, who carried nothing but "chocolate creams" in his ammo bag, to skewer the cult of the military hero. It was a profoundly pacifist satire. Bluntschli came across as an eminently sane individual doing whatever he could to survive in the madness of warfare -- by avoiding combat altogether and only pretending to be a soldier. By the end of the play, the prideful, preening macho soldier is disgraced and Bluntschli gets the girl, when he points out that he owns several hotels and holds the highest honor in the Swiss Republic -- that of a "free citizen." In the last line of the play, he is acclaimed:

"What a man!"

[Dinsdale]

Damn you, Tomcat. Here I wade through this whole post, and you trump me two posts from the bottom. Well, I guess I'll second your vote for the filipinos. I applaud you for noting the unduobtable mythological component of those stories, all of which I have heard often stated as fact. Also, as far as the effectiveness of the art, well, I think every fighter should train FMA to some extent.

Just curious, who do you train under and where?

[Tomcat]

USED to train...I live in Prague now where I do Thai boxing.
Long story in different places, but...Robert Moore in Seattle, Jon Baklund under Rick Faye (under Dan Inosanto) from Minnesota, and Alan ??? for a brief period in Denver. Great stuff! You train too?

[Lemur866]

I think this thread should have been over the first time someone brought up the Mongols. Discussion over folks.

[Dinsdale]

I was recently in Seattle, and enjoyed the opportunity to train w/ Jesse Glover and Jim DeMile. I've got a good buddy in Milwaukee who is pretty tight with Rick Faye, and my instructor, Dion Riccardo, was up there for an Inosanto seminar just a couple of months ago. I've been neglecting my weapons work somewhat lately. Working more on my ground game and boxing/kickboxing. Gotta love that Thai boxing as well! Love them knees and elbows. Did you see Bart giving his mook jong a workout in yesterday's Simpsons?

[SuaSponte]

Originally posted by Tomcat
A group not mentioned yet are the Kalistas from the Philipines. As the story goes, these are the ones that gave the US Marines their nick-name "Leather-Necks" because of their habit of jumping out of the jungle and slicing the throats of their heavily-armed enemies (this was during the Sapnish-American war I guess). [snip]
This actually occurred after the S-A War. In one of the least known annals of U.S. military history, the Army and Marines to put down a several year long insurrection by Filipinos, who had expected the U.S. seizure of the Philippines to result in independence for the islands, not simply a change in the colonial master. IIRC, the insurrection went on until 1902, and was only halted after the U.S. resorted to (*sigh*) concentration camps.
Sua

[Arnold Winkelried]

DrDoom - I hope those tears weren't caused by excessive laughter! ;) The story at that web page is written in an emphatic style not popular nowadays, but the facts are true.

casdave - I'm not an expert on swiss mercenaries, so I suppose I will have to read more on them. All the descriptions I read are of their infantry and long pikes. Though William Tell (almost certainly a ficitional character) is of course famous for his crossbow shot, and crossbows were a traditional weapon in Switzerland, I didn't know that they were a habitual weapon of the swiss mercenaries.

ishmintingas - Thank you for the information! I never knew that GBS had written a play starring a swiss soldier. I'm off to the library today to find it!

[Dinsdale]

Howzabout them Spartans? I mean, remaining silent while foxes chew your entrails is some tough shit! Anyone know - any basis for the legend?

[Johanna]

How about them Plains Indian braves?

I mean, the Sun Dance where their breast muscles are slowly torn out and they remain silent and perfectly impassive throughout this ordeal for several hours, while staring into the sun, is some seriously tough shit. (And this is no legend, but documented fact.) They have my vote!

[zwaldd]

going by the op's definition of fierce, i'd have to say fire ants.

[Finagle]

Originally posted by Tomcat
A group not mentioned yet are the Kalistas from the Philipines. As the story goes, these are the ones that gave the US Marines their nick-name "Leather-Necks" because of their habit of jumping out of the jungle and slicing the throats of their heavily-armed enemies (this was during the Sapnish-American war I guess). So the Marines made leather collars for protection.


Going further back than that we come to the most famous victim of Kalista wrath: Magellan. He raped and pillaged a village or three while the village men were off hunting. One singular returning hunter swam out to the boat, climbed on board, fought his way through the crew, and killed Magellan.


Well, the "leatherneck" story is at the very least debatable. Marines (British and US) wore leather stocks long before the SA war. The phrase "leatherneck" dates back to at least 1890 in reference to British marines.
See: http://www.wilton.net/wordorl.htm

The Magellan story is just wrong. Magellan died in an ill-advised skirmish with natives on the island of Mactan, the primary lesson being that people in armor shouldn't trying fighting in thigh deep water.

http://marauder.millersv.edu/~columbus/data/art/WINCHE01.ART

[Sauron]

I was gonna mention the Amazons, but now I'd have to agree with zwaldd: fire ants. Nasty buggers.

[Nixon]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Red Army's performance on the Eastern Front once they recovered from the blizkrieg in 1941.

From December 1941 to May 1945, the commies kicked serious ass.

(Of course now, from Chechnya to the Kursk fiasco, they are a pale shadow of what they once were.)