Going digital on 2/17/2009

[evilCozPoetry]

Hello People,

I am curious to know, if anyone (especially conspiracy theorists) knows why the "LAW" was passed, to go digital, for receiving broadcast air waves from/for free TV? (In the US of A)

Is there some kind of hidden agenda???
Other than just the promise of better reception...

I mean... Why on earth does it have to be a LAW?

Aren't there way too many laws already?

Your knowledge and thoughts will be appreciated!

Thank You.
evilC from evilCozPoetry.

[John Mace]

Besides better signal quality, you can squeeze more channels in the same amount of bandwidth.

Read about it here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_television)

[friedo]

I am curious to know, if anyone (especially conspiracy theorists) knows why the "LAW" was passed, to go digital, for receiving broadcast air waves from/for free TV? (In the US of A)


The reason is because digital encoding provides for far greater bandwidth and more features than analog over-the-air transmission. This means that broadcasters can provide simulcasts in multiple languages, alternative programming, HD and SD transmissions at the same time, and a multitude of other options.


Is there some kind of hidden agenda???


Possibly. But if it was hidden, how would we know about it?


Other than just the promise of better reception...


Not just better reception -- see above.


I mean... Why on earth does it have to be a LAW?


Terrestrial airwaves are considered to be public property in the United States, and that's why the federal government set up the FCC and charged it with promulgating technical regulations and standards for how the airwaves are used. I'm not sure if the mandated switch is due to FCC regulation or an actual new statute (or both) but that's the reason the government is involved.


Aren't there way too many laws already?


Damn straight.

[Schnitte]

I mean... Why on earth does it have to be a LAW?

Aren't there way too many laws already?


Of course it's a viable standpoint to say that certain areas in modern societies are overregulated and should be left to themselves, instead of imposing restrictions on them. OTOH, there are certain areas which need to be regulated in the interest of the public as a whole, and also in the interest of actors on the regulated market. Broadcasting is such a field: There are plenty of entities interested in suing certain bandwiths of frequencies: Cellphone operators; TV and radio stations; the military; air traffic; CB radio operators; scientists scanning the skies for signals; and many more. Radio frequencies have become a scarce commodity, so their allocation has to be regulated - if everybodycoudl freely use any frequency he likes to, there'd be chaos. That's why there are authorities like the Federal Communications Commission in the U.S. regulating it. They decided to swicth to digital broadcasting because it allows more information to be transmitted via the same bandwidth, which obviously serves the common good.

[BJMoose]

The problem the FCC has always faced is that if they wait for the "marketplace" to get things done, it'll never happen.

Part of the HDTV plan is to move all TV stations to UHF channels. The FCC has plans for the VHF spectrum now occupied by TV channels 2-13. If they simply wait for the existing stations to take the financial plunge, move to HDTV and scrap their VHF transmitters, they'll have a long wait ahead of them. If I remember right, this is why they set the "drop dead" date for NTSC broadcast television.

The FCC has found it necessary to step in in the past. UHF TV, for example. They ran out of available VHF channel assignments in the early '50s, and soon added the UHF channels. But for some reason manufacturers were loathe to make VHF/UHF sets. This put UHF stations sharing a market with VHF stations at quite a disadvantage - no one could pick them up. The FCC's first attempt to fix this was "deintermixture" (count on the gov to find an ugly word for what it does): they changed channel assignments so TV markets were either all-VHF or all-UHF. Still no UHF sets being made. Finally they said the hell with it and required manufacturers to include UHF receivers in all TV sets. Problem solved.

And FM radio didn't take off until the FCC set a requirement that all radio receivers retailing for more than ten bucks (mid-60s money) be able to receive FM as well as AM.

The marketplace may be efficient, but sometimes it is damned slow.

[Derleth]

The marketplace may be efficient, but sometimes it is damned slow.It’s only efficient at responding to pressures. The FCC has to exert effective pressures for the market to respond to, that’s all.

evilCozPoetry: There are already laws about everything that is broadcast in this country.* The switchover, to my knowledge, does not involve any new laws at all. It is just the consequence of the laws we already have and the increasing maturity of digital TV technology.

*(Yes, even the ‘unregulated’ bands are regulated to the extent the law says they are largely unregulated. And I do not know of any bands that are completely unregulated.)

[mks57]

Part of the HDTV plan is to move all TV stations to UHF channels. The FCC has plans for the VHF spectrum now occupied by TV channels 2-13. If they simply wait for the existing stations to take the financial plunge, move to HDTV and scrap their VHF transmitters, they'll have a long wait ahead of them. If I remember right, this is why they set the "drop dead" date for NTSC broadcast television.


That part of the plan is no longer operative.

The FCC is allowing stations to move back to the VHF bands. This is important for many stations that would face high energy costs in replicating their current coverage with a UHF transmitter.

[mks57]

The original agenda, many, many, years ago, was to keep television spectrum out of the hands of heathens like Motorola and the two-way radio industry. The idea was that utilization of the television spectrum could be doubled by having each television station assigned a high-definition augmentation channel. A high definition receiver would take information from the two channels and produce a high definition image. Sort of like how color was added to NTSC.

See Joel Brinkley's book "Defining Vision".

[beowulff]

That part of the plan is no longer operative.

The FCC is allowing stations to move back to the VHF bands. This is important for many stations that would face high energy costs in replicating their current coverage with a UHF transmitter.
Cite?

[Colophon]

Besides better signal quality, you can squeeze more channels in the same amount of bandwidth.
I think you mean: "By sacrificing better signal quality, you can squeeze more channels in the same amount of bandwidth."

Seriously, digital TV sucks compared to a decent quality analogue signal. True, with digital you get either a reasonable picture or nothing, rather than a continuum from excellent to fuzzy to unwatchable, but the pictures are so horribly overcompressed. Anything that involves steam or smoke, e.g. cookery shows or music concerts, is full of horrible JPEG artifacts. Okay, MPEG artifacts, I suppose, if you want to be fussy.

[N9IWP]

Got to antennaweb.org and enter a location (example 54650)
You will see that WKBT-DT is currently on channel 41.
But it will be back on channel 8 post transition (its on the lsit)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13509002#post13509002

I can't find a primary cite though

Brian

[mks57]

Cite?

Digital Television Information, Office of Engineering and Technology, Federal Communications Commission (http://www.fcc.gov/oet/dtv/)

[Captain Amazing]

Part of the reason was so that they could auction off the analog channels, and thereby make money.

[Dewey Finn]

Exactly. I thought the not-so-hidden agenda was the desire to reap billions by auctioning off the analog spectrum.

[mks57]

Seriously, digital TV sucks compared to a decent quality analogue signal. True, with digital you get either a reasonable picture or nothing, rather than a continuum from excellent to fuzzy to unwatchable, but the pictures are so horribly overcompressed. Anything that involves steam or smoke, e.g. cookery shows or music concerts, is full of horrible JPEG artifacts. Okay, MPEG artifacts, I suppose, if you want to be fussy.

Most problems with digital video can be traced to inadequate bit rates and transmission errors. Even with analog television, many of the distribution links are now digital. Analog video is not long for this world.

I see a lot of crappy digital video on my local cable system. Much of it can be blamed on the operator's lack of interest in fixing non-catastrophic problems in their system, and their willingness to trade quality for additional channels.

[Rysto]

The frequencies used for analog transmission penetrate tinfoil hats better.

[mks57]

Exactly. I thought the not-so-hidden agenda was the desire to reap billions by auctioning off the analog spectrum.

That became an issue after they discovered that an all-digital television broadcasting system could make more efficient use of the broadcast spectrum.

[friedo]

Part of the reason was so that they could auction off the analog channels, and thereby make money.

Exactly. I thought the not-so-hidden agenda was the desire to reap billions by auctioning off the analog spectrum.

Who's "they?" The proceeds from FCC spectrum auctions, like nearly any government sale, go directly to the general fund of the US treasury. It's not like some mustache-twirling FCC commissioner has it stashed in his Swiss bank account.

[Captain Amazing]

Who's "they?" The proceeds from FCC spectrum auctions, like nearly any government sale, go directly to the general fund of the US treasury. It's not like some mustache-twirling FCC commissioner has it stashed in his Swiss bank account.

They being the government/Congress. I'm not saying it's particularly sinister. Here's a Congressional Research Serrvice about the transition (in PDF)

http://italy.usembassy.gov/pdf/other/RL31260.pdf

[Dewey Finn]

From their perspective, it's great. They raise billions without raising anyone's taxes.

[J Cubed]

About those free billions of dollars, I remember reading that those auctions were being fixed. And if some poor company couldn't manage to pay its billion-dollar winning bid, by golly, it could just have that dadgum band of the spectrum anyway. Any truth to that?

[IAmNotSpartacus]

About those free billions of dollars, I remember reading that those auctions were being fixed. And if some poor company couldn't manage to pay its billion-dollar winning bid, by golly, it could just have that dadgum band of the spectrum anyway.
No. And not only that, if the winner doesn't pay the bid, they are required to pay a steep penalty and get nothing in return.

[mks57]

About those free billions of dollars, I remember reading that those auctions were being fixed. And if some poor company couldn't manage to pay its billion-dollar winning bid, by golly, it could just have that dadgum band of the spectrum anyway. Any truth to that?

I think the question came up with one of the auctions of what to do when when the successful bidder went bankrupt before having completed its payments to the FCC. Did the FCC get to reclaim the spectrum for nonpayment or was it an asset of the bankrupt company. I don't remember what was decided.

[Captain Amazing]

That was the Nextwave case, and it didn't deal with analog tv spectrum, but with another auction.

Back in 1996, Nextwave Telecom won a bunch of licenses at auction. For that auction, the FCC had an installment payment system. Auction winners, instead of paying the full amount within a few weeks of when they've won the licenses (like they have to do today), could pay a small amount up front and then pay the rest in a series of installment payments spread out over a number of years.

Anyway, in 1998, Nextwave filed for bankruptcy. They also stopped making installment payments to the FCC. In response, the FCC cancelled their licenses and reauctioned them. Nextwave sued the FCC, claiming that their debt to the FCC was protected by the bankruptcy, and therefore the FCC shouldn't have revoked their licenses.

This worked its way up to the Supreme Court, and in 2003, the Court ruled for Nextwave, and made the Commission reinstate the licenses, and refund the money paid by bidders in the reauction.

[ralph124c]

This is a windfall for conmen, scam artists, rip-off experts. A sample dialogue:
(Bell rings at door of elederly ladie's home):
(Old lady): "Who is it"?
(ConmNa): Shows FCC "Badge";"Ma'am, we're from the FCC, you have an old set, it needs to be modified to accpet the new signals-otherwise it'll be dangerous!"
(Old lady)"Oh my, will it cost a lot of money"?
(Conman): "No, only about $800 for a converter module"
(Old lady);"Oh dar, i can't find that kind of money"
(Conman): "No problem-just sign this loan application (at 78% APR)
(Old lady)"Thank you so much!" :confused:

[Ignatz]

Wilmington NC is going to be switched on 9/8/08.
Can they buy portable digital tvs to watch the hurricane news when their power is off?



http://www.wwaytv3.com/dtv

[beowulff]

That part of the plan is no longer operative.

The FCC is allowing stations to move back to the VHF bands. This is important for many stations that would face high energy costs in replicating their current coverage with a UHF transmitter.
What do you mean by this? Are you saying that full-power stations will still be able to broadcast in analog (NTSC)? Because, that's not what it says here: http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/digitaltv.html

[mks57]

What do you mean by this? Are you saying that full-power stations will still be able to broadcast in analog (NTSC)? Because, that's not what it says here: http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/digitaltv.html

No. They will be transmitting in ATSC. Channel assignment and modulation mode are distinct and independent. Both NTSC and ATSC were designed for the American system of 6 MHz channels. There is no difference between an analog channel and a digital channel. With a properly engineered station, it only takes a flick of a switch to change from NTSC to ATSC.

[whitetho]

Wilmington NC is going to be switched on 9/8/08.
Can they buy portable digital tvs to watch the hurricane news when their power is off?There was a short special report on the Wilmington situation on the local PBS station. Because of the concern about the hurricane season, it turns out the commercial analog signals will remain on after 9/8/08 with a limited service. Normally they will just transmit information telling people they need to buy digital sets or converters, but in case of emergency prior to 2/09 they will return to full programming. Also, the local PBS station will not be participating in the early switch-over. They also said they hoped that portable digital sets would be readily available by next summer. However, one side effect of the digital switch is that afterward it will no longer be possible to pick up audio from local channel 6 at 87.7 on an FM receiver.

[notlikely]

Digital broadcasting has it's roots in high def. The Japanaese first started high def in analog with great results. Trouble was in analog high def would take about 6-8 TV channels to broadcast one high def channel. Obviously this wouldn't take.

By the 90s, technology came about to make high def possible using a digital format, which you can compress and use algorithms. Then about 1995 some broadcasters were upset with paying a lot of money for something the public didn't want high def. FOX in fact said it wouldn't show high def but merely upconvert. Then when FOX got football they went to high def.

Then in 1997 it was decided that broadcasters could use their channels anyway they wanted, not just for high def. This allows for one high def channel or up to six standard channels on what used to be one analog channel.

(Yes some broadcasters try broadcasting high def and subchannels but it looks bad)

Of course high def is useless for pretty much everything but nature shows. Is Seinfeld anymore funnier if it's clear. Will Eli Manning throw a football better? No pehaps maybe in hockey you can see the puck better in high def, but really it's a waste of money.

So a lot of broadcasters simply are upconverting and people are thinking they are getting high def when they are not. Actually most cable companies compress their high def. If you look at Comcast and it's network high defs and see those same network channels in high def over the air. The over the air is better.

Once again big business is taking advantage of the confusion to sell people things they don't need.

Want a high def screen? The human eye cannot preceive the difference between standard and high def in screens smaller than 30" but people will swear they can.
Consumer testings show while most everybody can tell standard def from high def it they are side by side, but if you can't compare only about 25% of the people can tell. Yet people believe.

The government has made this an emergency thing but it's not true. There are plenty of ways to get info around.

Broadcasters did not want to change channels so the FCC mandated PSIP which will map a channel to it's analog channel. For instance WGN-TV broadcasts digitally on channel 19 but you won't know it cause it's maps on digital TV's to it's analog channel which is 9.

VHF channel 2-6 are horrible for digital TV, subject to much electrical interference.

VHF channels 7-13 are perfect. UHF works well too but it costs a LOT more to broadcast in UHF in terms of power, so most analog TV stations are choosing high VHF (7-13) (See http://dtvallocations.com for a map of where the digital channels are located)

After Feb 17, 2009 low power TV stations will still be able to broadcast in analog if they choose to.

Also the Wilmington test market is a joke as too many people have cable. You'll still get TV if you have cable. See cable uses QAM not analog or digital. Cable takes analog signals and retransmits them as QAM, so the cable company will do the same for digtial signals.

[mks57]

Also the Wilmington test market is a joke as too many people have cable. You'll still get TV if you have cable. See cable uses QAM not analog or digital. Cable takes analog signals and retransmits them as QAM, so the cable company will do the same for digital signals.

QAM is digital. The analog video is converted to MPEG-2 digital video encoding. At a digital television station, the MPEG-2 video is used to modulate a carrier with 8-VSB modulation. At a cable system head-end, the MPEG-2 video is used to modulate a carrier with QAM modulation. 8-VSB was intended for use "over the air", while QAM was optimized for use on a cable system. It's the same MPEG-2 digital video. An 8-VSB channel can carry approximately 19 megabit/s. A QAM channel can carry approximately 38 megabit/s. Both use 6 MHz of spectrum. Many digital TV tuners can receive both ATSC (8-VSB) and unencrypted digital cable (QAM). Internet cable modems also use QAM for their downstream link.

Analog cable uses NTSC (VSB), just like current analog over-the-air television broadcasters.

A digital cable box receives a QAM signal, demodulates it and extracts the MPEG-2 digital video. It then decodes the MPEG-2 digital video and converts it into NTSC analog video for output to the customer's television.

[Frylock]

Influence my ignorance. Do I have to buy a new TV?

-FrL-

[Westrogothia]

Influence my ignorance. Do I have to buy a new TV?

-FrL-

Probably not. Just a digital box. the antenna goes into the box then you plug the box into the tv via scart.

at least that how it was done in sweden (all digital now).
the boxes are pretty cheap too.

if you buy a new tv then you can get one with a digital tuner in it but you dont have to.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Influence my ignorance. Do I have to buy a new TV?

-FrL-

No, just a converter box. In the US you can get $40 off the cost of the box buy getting a coupon directly from the government (https://www.dtv2009.gov/)

The boxes should only cost around $40 each (http://www.google.com/products?q=digital+converter+box&oe=utf-8&price1=30.00&price2=40.00&lnk=prsugg)*, anyway

*random google results

[dougie_monty]

Something I'd like to know:
We have three TVs, manufactured in 2004, 1995, and 1988 (B&W). We have bought converter boxes for all three. Do we have to wait until next February to test the boxes with the sets?

[mks57]

Something I'd like to know:
We have three TVs, manufactured in 2004, 1995, and 1988 (B&W). We have bought converter boxes for all three. Do we have to wait until next February to test the boxes with the sets?

No. The vast majority of digital stations are already on the air. The deadline is for the cessation of analog broadcasting.

[Martini Enfield]

Probably not. Just a digital box. the antenna goes into the box then you plug the box into the tv via scart.

Digital Set-Top Boxes can also be plugged in using RCA, Component, and (on Hi-Def models) HDMI or DVI cables.

They've set a date of around 2014 to switch off analogue TV here- penetration of Digital TV is still relatively low and, since most people have CRT TVs, there's no real benefit for them to spend $70-odd on a DSTB to receive an extra ABC channel and another channel of The News In Latvian/Greek/Kalahari Tongue-Click courtesy of SBS...

Almost all new LCD TVs here have digital tuners in them, usually HDTV, FWIW.

[dougie_monty]

Digital Set-Top Boxes can also be plugged in using RCA, Component, and (on Hi-Def models) HDMI or DVI cables.

They've set a date of around 2014 to switch off analogue TV here- penetration of Digital TV is still relatively low and, since most people have CRT TVs, there's no real benefit for them to spend $70-odd on a DSTB to receive an extra ABC channel and another channel of The News In Latvian/Greek/Kalahari Tongue-Click courtesy of SBS...

Almost all new LCD TVs here have digital tuners in them, usually HDTV, FWIW.
Your signature (last line) reminds me of a line in an old Disney comic book involving an attempt by a non-Indian to make smoke signals, which an Indian reads as:
"Baby fires...fall up to deer...with horse...in pocket!"
:D hee hee :D

[B_A_Bay]

In Chicago I went from getting 16 TV stations, three of which are near perfect (7, 9 and 26) and Two low power stations (23 and 48 near cable perfect) with analog. When I bought my digital TV I now get three stations (7, 9 and 32).

And 9 and 7 are pixilated to the hilt. Of course the answer is "Get an antenna." That is fine but going from rabbit ears with a UHF loop and picking up 16 watchable stations to one watchable station is progress? I know an outdoor antenna would help but that's not always an option.

I live in an apartment with no master antenna so my only option is cable. We can't get a dish do to the other buildings.

I realize analog is outdated technology but really if I live 5 miles from the Sears Tower and digital is the fussy a signal they should've thought of something better, they've had over 10 years now to improve this.

Of course the FCC says "We need to free up bandwidth for emergencies, look at Katrina and 9-11." Yet they fail to say "We could take the frequencies from cell phones after all a cell phone isn't necessary." But the attitude is more cell phones for rich people and less TV for poor people.

[Max Torque]

Of course the answer is "Get an antenna." That is fine but going from rabbit ears with a UHF loop and picking up 16 watchable stations to one watchable station is progress? I know an outdoor antenna would help but that's not always an option.
If you're still using old-fashioned rabbit ears with a UHF loop, the old girl might just not be up to the task. Odds are you'll see vast improvement if you just upgrade your indoor antenna. This Winegard antenna (http://www.winegard.com/offair/ss-3000.htm) is, as I understand it, pretty much the gold standard for indoor reception. Something along those lines will probably improve your situation immensely.

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

We have another anachronism in the making. This means the end of "channels" as we used to know them. The word will have no meaning anymore.

I suspect local TV channels will try to keep the same numbers, as they have with cable boxes, e.g. NBC on "4" in L.A. So people will probably still speak of channels the way they do of "dialing" phones.

[Derleth]

If we're lucky, there will be some extra information added to the signals Teletext (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext)-style, like current weather and correct time and road conditions and so on (but probably not software (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telesoftware)). Sending the equivalent of a few pages of text a second shouldn't strain any part of the system.

In any case, GNU Radio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Radio) is looking more and more interesting.

[Martini Enfield]

Your signature (last line) reminds me of a line in an old Disney comic book involving an attempt by a non-Indian to make smoke signals, which an Indian reads as:
"Baby fires...fall up to deer...with horse...in pocket!"
:D hee hee :D

It's actually from Duckman, but I'm glad you liked it! It still makes me smile from time to time...

[Sunspace]

We have another anachronism in the making. This means the end of "channels" as we used to know them. The word will have no meaning anymore.

I suspect local TV channels will try to keep the same numbers, as they have with cable boxes, e.g. NBC on "4" in L.A. So people will probably still speak of channels the way they do of "dialing" phones.Explain, please? While we have OTA digital TV here in Toronto, everyone I know has an analogue set, has cable or satellite (and their receiver boxes), or doesn't have a TV.

[dougie_monty]

I went ahead and connected my new converter box (Radio Shack) to my TV (JC Penney, vintage 1995) and VCR/DVD player (Magnavox) and it didn't work. So now, tomorrow, I'm going to get an A/B switch at Radio Shack so I can get the digital TV reception and watch my DVDs and videotapes, but I won't be able to record tapes anymore. :(

[Martini Enfield]

I went ahead and connected my new converter box (Radio Shack) to my TV (JC Penney, vintage 1995) and VCR/DVD player (Magnavox) and it didn't work. So now, tomorrow, I'm going to get an A/B switch at Radio Shack so I can get the digital TV reception and watch my DVDs and videotapes, but I won't be able to record tapes anymore. :(

Plug your set-top box into the AV Input on your VCR/DVD player. Then plug your VCR/DVD into your TV however it's currently hooked up.

Plug the antenna lead from your wall into the Set-Top Box; NOT your TV or VCR/DVD.

Set your TV to whatever channel you currently use for VHS/DVDs. Then change the channel on your VCR/DVD player to "AV 1" or whatever the input your Set Top Box is plugged into is.

You should now A) Be able to watch digital TV and B) be able to tape same onto your VCR...

[SmackFu]

We have another anachronism in the making. This means the end of "channels" as we used to know them. The word will have no meaning anymore.What do you mean? There are still channels in digital, at least from the perspective of my convert box. I still tune to channel 30 to get ABC. Well, 30-1. Technically it's actually physical channel 10, but that's completely hidden away when you're surfing.