Vladimir Klitschko is a horrible champion

[Frank]

I can't think of anyone who was a heavyweight champion for as long as he has been who would not have destroyed him. It's a commentary on the state of the division that he is the best out there.

[Busy Scissors]

Heavyweights do indeed suck at the moment. Didn't see the fight - What was so horrible about Wlad?

I don't follow the heavies too closely, but there's a guy called David Haye who gets a lot of coverage over here who is moving up. He was the world champion cruiserweight, and has the technique and personality to put some quality into the HW division. He's got good skills and speed, outstanding power and an awesome physique. Unfortunately, there's a question mark over his beard - he's been put down by cruiserweights once or twice. I guess you can't have everything.

Modern boxing being what it is, Haye will probably get a shot at Wlad in 2015 once they've both wended their way through an interminable series of safe journeymen, fighting once a year :(

[Frank]

Heavyweights do indeed suck at the moment. Didn't see the fight - What was so horrible about Wlad?
He was nothing but an awkward headhunter, and occasional wrestler. He had a cut and both his eyes were mousing. The beginning of the end for Thompson was when Klischtko stepped on his foot and tackled him, hurting his leg. Any quality opposition could have taken him. Honestly, I've only seen him twice, and I'm less than impressed. The other fight (which I also started a thread on, I think) was simply a "let's see who wins on jabs from four feet" contest.

[ivan astikov]

There's another guy boxing in the North West of England, with the wonderfully apt name of Tyson Fury, who is being touted as a GWH for the future HW scene. From the brief sights of him I've had, he seems far too crude to ever be a great HW, but he's young and massive, and who knows? David Haye looks a far more likely world champion.

[Frank]

He had a cut and both his eyes were mousing.
I should, in fairness, add that his corner did great work on these.

[Frank]

David Haye looks a far more likely world champion.
Never heard of him. His stats look good. Can he carry 220-230 pounds coming up from cruiser?

[Brandon]

Thompson lost the fight in his own mind way before Wlad did anything substantial to him. It was yawn-inducing watching that training session being passed off as a fight. In my opinion, the main things that were horrible about Wlad during that fight were his inability to finish off an already beaten opponent and his normal propensity for trying to induce a hug-fest.

[ivan astikov]

Never heard of him. His stats look good. Can he carry 220-230 pounds coming up from cruiser?

I really don't know, but he has big heart and big ambitions, and Holyfield and Tyson proved you don't have to be the biggest HW to be the best HW.

[Busy Scissors]

He probably would be OK, he was really killing himself to make weight for cruiser which was affecting his conditioning - he tired dramatically in fights. One of those examples of a chiselled, beautiful physique that seemed to have no stamina. Hopefully he'll be more comfortable at the higher weight.

Wlad has his limitations, but the few times I've seen him he's been an exceptionally conditioned athlete. Good stamina into the later rounds, which must be very tough at heavyweight.

[Frank]

Good stamina into the later rounds, which must be very tough at heavyweight.
Pshaw. It's not difficult at all to have stamina if you never exert yourself.

[Cisco]

You could switch to following MMA. It's young enough that it's free from most of the corruption, politics, and money-grubbing that has plagued boxing, but the heavyweight division also kind of sucks.

[ivan astikov]

You could switch to following MMA. It's young enough that it's free from most of the corruption, politics, and money-grubbing that has plagued boxing, but the heavyweight division also kind of sucks.

I know some will argue that he has avoided the real big guns in MMA, but that Fedor looks awesome in some of the fights I've seen him in. Do you rate the guy, Cisco?

[Frank]

You could switch to following MMA. It's young enough that it's free from most of the corruption, politics, and money-grubbing that has plagued boxing, but the heavyweight division also kind of sucks.
Y'know, this is probably the subject of a different thread, but the MMA is too much for me. I like the Queensberry rules.

[Cisco]

I know some will argue that he has avoided the real big guns in MMA, but that Fedor looks awesome in some of the fights I've seen him in. Do you rate the guy, Cisco?
Yes. Undoubtably #1 at heavyweight and real close to the top pound for pound. Probably only behind BJ Penn.

The amazing thing about Fedor is that he brings people's strengths to them and beats them at their own game. He outstrikes the best strikers and outgrapples the best grapplers.

I can't think of anyone who deserves him that hasn't got him, except maybe Tim, who is fighting him next week, and Randy, who should get the greenlight to fight him in October. If he gets past those two (and let's face it - he will), I don't see how anyone could question his status as heavyweight king.

[Cisco]

Y'know, this is probably the subject of a different thread, but the MMA is too much for me. I like the Queensberry rules.
Sorry. I won't derail any further, but a final comment in case you're interested in discussing it anymore: MMA is far safer than boxing. There has never been a serious injury and only 1 death* in over 15 years of the sport. Boxing, IIRC, averages one death per year, and has serious injuries out the wazoo.

*the guy had a pre-existing bloodclot

[ivan astikov]

Y'know, this is probably the subject of a different thread, but the MMA is too much for me. I like the Queensberry rules.

Sorry for the hijack Frank. What is your fave division then? I know all the romance and the glory goes to the big boys, but you can't beat the middleweights, and downward for all-round action. Have you seen anything of the Brit prospect Amir Khan, yet?

[gonzomax]

Heavyweights do indeed suck at the moment. Didn't see the fight - What was so horrible about Wlad?

I don't follow the heavies too closely, but there's a guy called David Haye who gets a lot of coverage over here who is moving up. He was the world champion cruiserweight, and has the technique and personality to put some quality into the HW division. He's got good skills and speed, outstanding power and an awesome physique. Unfortunately, there's a question mark over his beard - he's been put down by cruiserweights once or twice. I guess you can't have everything.

Modern boxing being what it is, Haye will probably get a shot at Wlad in 2015 once they've both wended their way through an interminable series of safe journeymen, fighting once a year :(
Wlad is huge. He is 6-6 1/2 . A cruiserweight might have trouble handling his size. He leans on his opponent and lets his weight wear them down. He is a ugly,clumsy fighter. In last nights fight he wore his opponent down by hanging on him.

[Frank]

What is your fave division then?
Well, heavys, obviously. :p I don't mind watching the lower weights from time to time, but I prefer good heavyweights. There just aren't any right now. :(

[ivan astikov]

Well, heavys, obviously. :p I don't mind watching the lower weights from time to time, but I prefer good heavyweights. There just aren't any right now. :(

Are you willing to humour my Heavyweight Conspiracy Theory, Frank? :) How about the idea that Mike Tyson was told by the Mafia to throw his Buster Douglas fight, so that he could not challenge Marciano's 49 - 0 record? Watching that fight in slo-mo, it sure looked as if he might have held his guard low for Douglas's right. Am I speaking out of my ass again, or what, Frank? :D

[Frank]

Are you willing to humour my Heavyweight Conspiracy Theory, Frank? :) How about the idea that Mike Tyson was told by the Mafia to throw his Buster Douglas fight, so that he could not challenge Marciano's 49 - 0 record? Watching that fight in slo-mo, it sure looked as if he might have held his guard low for Douglas's right. Am I speaking out of my ass again, or what, Frank? :D
No, sorry, definitely talking out of your ass again. I'll vaguely agree that the ref gave Tyson a slow count, or possibly I'll vaguely agree that the ref gave Douglas a fast count the round or two earlier, or possibly I'll vaguely agree to both, but I'll definitely state that Douglas won. Tyson crawling around on the canvas looking for his mouthpiece tells the story.

[ivan astikov]

No, sorry, definitely talking out of your ass again. I'll vaguely agree that the ref gave Tyson a slow count, or possibly I'll vaguely agree that the ref gave Douglas a fast count the round or two earlier, or possibly I'll vaguely agree to both, but I'll definitely state that Douglas won. Tyson crawling around on the canvas looking for his mouthpiece tells the story.
I know James Douglas went into that fight fearless and looking to win, and in the best shape of his career, and I also know Tyson went into that fight with a lot of outside of the ring problems, but perhaps his real problem wasn't the ones being reported? Maybe the reason the count went on so long was because Tyson couldn't win, even if he tried.... barring knocking him out? There's no doubt his appetite for the contest rapidly disappeared after that moment!?

[Frank]

... and I also know Tyson went into that fight with a lot of outside of the ring problems, ...
He went into that fight with a lot of inside the ring problems too. His corner was not prepared for him to get clocked. Tremendous difference from Klitschko's corner; they were ready. Look at the balloon being used on his (back to Tyson) swelling, for example. As far as "couldn't win", as I recall - could be wrong - HBO reported that Tyson was winning on the scorecard.

[ivan astikov]

Come on Frank, it's a Conspiracy Theory...it's bound to be full of holes. I did say humour me! :)

[jimmmy]

I am hopeful that these Olympics will re-energize boxing - including the Heavys

[gonzomax]

He went into that fight with a lot of inside the ring problems too. His corner was not prepared for him to get clocked. Tremendous difference from Klitschko's corner; they were ready. Look at the balloon being used on his (back to Tyson) swelling, for example. As far as "couldn't win", as I recall - could be wrong - HBO reported that Tyson was winning on the scorecard.
Douglass beat Tyson to the punch over and over. It was not even close. But Tyson was a money maker and Douglass was not going to help the sports popularity .

[pravnik]

I know some will argue that he has avoided the real big guns in MMA, but that Fedor looks awesome in some of the fights I've seen him in. Do you rate the guy, Cisco?Undeniably the best heavyweight and arguably the best pound for pound fighter in the world. One of the most well rounded fighters the sport has ever seen.

[ivan astikov]

Undeniably the best heavyweight and arguably the best pound for pound fighter in the world. One of the most well rounded fighters the sport has ever seen.

The way he survived this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtFvR7QRmow to win with a tap-out, was amazing, and shows pure determination! Wow!

[mazinger_z]

Fedor is not a man. He is an arm bar machine.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I haven't watched boxing seriously since Prince Naseem lost to Marco Barrera.

[ivan astikov]

I haven't watched boxing seriously since Prince Naseem lost to Marco Barrera.
Why's that then, RNATB? Any particular reason.

Naseem really got bullied in that fight, didn't he! Barrera totally knocked the stuffing out of him.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Why's that then, RNATB? Any particular reason.

Naseem really got bullied in that fight, didn't he! Barrera totally knocked the stuffing out of him.
He was the only boxer since Tyson got sent away who I enjoyed watching. All that style and there really was substance underneath it all. When he fought Tom Johnson, Johnson landed one good cross, and Hamed hopped back, pantomimed getting punched in the mouth, waited for a moment to soak up the applause and laughter, and promptly waded back in and knocked Johnson down with one shot.

I was happy to see another British champion when Lennox Lewis won his belts, but god he was boring to watch.

[Dumbguy]

Klitschko is a lousy champion, and Larry Holmes would mop the floor with him, but if you've only seen his last few fights it's really not a fair measure of Klitschko's ability. He looked beautiful destroying Ray Mercer (who was admittedly washed up at the time) a few years back. Klitschko hasn’t been the same since Sanders knocked him out. He’s stiff and tentative and doesn’t let the combinations flow like he was once able to. He really did look like a stronger Lennox Lewis at one point, and most of his remaining celebrity is lingering hope that he’ll find his way again.

But if you want good boxing, screw the heavyweights. Catch a fight with Manny Pacquiao or Miguel Cotto or Kelly Pavlik or Juan Manuel Marquez or any number of fantastic fighters in the middle weight classes.

[pravnik]

But if you want good boxing, screw the heavyweights. Catch a fight with Manny Pacquiao or Miguel Cotto or Kelly Pavlik or Juan Manuel Marquez or any number of fantastic fighters in the middle weight classes.What he said. The heavys are in a slump, but the lower classes have some dynamite fighters.

[Gukumatz]

Interesting.

What odds are MMA enthusiasts giving for a match between Cro Cop and Fedor? :) (I've no idea what sports they're both in, I've just watched some Youtube videos. The only conclusions I've drawn so far is that I'd rather give Fedor thirty seconds with a set of brass knuckles than get in the way of one of Cro Cop's kicks)

[ivan astikov]

Interesting.

What odds are MMA enthusiasts giving for a match between Cro Cop and Fedor? :) (I've no idea what sports they're both in, I've just watched some Youtube videos. The only conclusions I've drawn so far is that I'd rather give Fedor thirty seconds with a set of brass knuckles than get in the way of one of Cro Cop's kicks)

They've already fought, and Fedor won with a unanimous decision. You can watch the whole fight here... http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7636500840086556141&q=fedor+crocop+video&ei=ZzSCSLHxKZa8igLRjamLDw

[Cyberhwk]

What odds are MMA enthusiasts giving for a match between Cro Cop and Fedor? :) (I've no idea what sports they're both in, I've just watched some Youtube videos. The only conclusions I've drawn so far is that I'd rather give Fedor thirty seconds with a set of brass knuckles than get in the way of one of Cro Cop's kicks)Fedor won before, and he'd do it again. Crocop is good, but was extremely underwhelming in his stint in UFC. So much so, that many are starting to wonder if the lack of success by old Pride fighters and UFC's inability to get Fedor under contract is (at least in part) due to more stringent drug and steroid testing in the US.

[Cardinal]

Fedor PWNED Tim Sylvia. Now I just want to see Fedor vs. Randy Couture while Randy is still young enough for it to matter. That would seriously be the biggest fight of all time in MMA. Fedor is essentially undefeated (his one loss was in a tournament that did not allow for No Contest outcomes, so he lost by an illegal head butt). Couture is the UFC phoenix, winning multiple titles in two weight classes, getting the nickname "Captain America". He's a two time Olympic Roman-Greco alternate, so he's totally legit in wrestling.

I would be bouncing in my seat at the start of that fight. Someone HAS to make it happen, just for the money available to everyone.

[ivan astikov]

Fedor PWNED Tim Sylvia. Now I just want to see Fedor vs. Randy Couture while Randy is still young enough for it to matter. That would seriously be the biggest fight of all time in MMA. Fedor is essentially undefeated (his one loss was in a tournament that did not allow for No Contest outcomes, so he lost by an illegal head butt). Couture is the UFC phoenix, winning multiple titles in two weight classes, getting the nickname "Captain America". He's a two time Olympic Roman-Greco alternate, so he's totally legit in wrestling.

I would be bouncing in my seat at the start of that fight. Someone HAS to make it happen, just for the money available to everyone.

Actually, it was an accidental head butt
that resulted in a 'no contest' against Noguiera, who he then went on to beat in his next fight. His 'loss' came from an accidental cut by his opponents elbow, whilst fighting Tsuyoshi Kohsaka. He also went on to beat him in their rematch. Apart from that, I agree with everything you say. ;) Fedor is certainly gonna take some beating, but I can't see it coming any time soon.

[davidw]

But if you want good boxing, screw the heavyweights. Catch a fight with Manny Pacquiao or Miguel Cotto or Kelly Pavlik or Juan Manuel Marquez or any number of fantastic fighters in the middle weight classes.

I'm guessing the upcoming Cotto-Margarito fight is gonna be a great one.

[Yorikke]

He went into that fight with a lot of inside the ring problems too. His corner was not prepared for him to get clocked. Tremendous difference from Klitschko's corner; they were ready. Look at the balloon being used on his (back to Tyson) swelling, for example. As far as "couldn't win", as I recall - could be wrong - HBO reported that Tyson was winning on the scorecard.

At the time, my mom and I had the conspiracy theory that Tyson was drugged before the fight. He wasn't doing the head bob-n-weave on his walk to the ring, just seemed lethargic. It's been ages since I've seen the fight, but that's what we thought at the time...

Joe

[Chefguy]

I don't like either of the brothers. It's a toss-up as to which one has the bigger glass chin, and Vlad's technique of throw a punch, then lay on his opponent is just plain boring to watch. Give me a good scrap with the likes of Manny Pacquiao any day.

[Sequitorian]

www.BoxingArts.com

[pravnik]

www.BoxingArts.comFrom the link:

"But most significantly, if it weren’t for the decline of boxing as a prime influence on the behavior of Americans and its replacement with martial arts and eventually mixed martial arts, Abu Ghraib would never have happened."

Mixed martial arts is responsible for Abu Ghraib? :dubious:

[gonzomax]

A champion needs a big time adversary to measure himself against. Ali had Frazer and Foreman. Vlad has no one to gather interest. At least he did not to a Roy Jones and turn a fight into a dance show.

[Cisco]

Fedor won before, and he'd do it again. Crocop is good, but was extremely underwhelming in his stint in UFC. So much so, that many are starting to wonder if the lack of success by old Pride fighters and UFC's inability to get Fedor under contract is (at least in part) due to more stringent drug and steroid testing in the US.
"More stringent"? Drug testing is non-existant in Japan.

That being said, CroCop and Fedor are not two that have really been under suspicion for steroid use. They are skill fighters, known for their strategy, technique, and heart. People like Wanderlei Silva and Shogun Rua are much more suspect.

Cro Cop's problems the UFC came from, I think, fighting down to the level of his competition (he did not respect Gonzaga, only had his eyes on the belt), and not training in a cage. Cheick Kongo was a successful kickboxer and, being bigger and stronger, was basically just a bad matchup from Crocop.

Fedor won both of his fights that took place in the US, so I don't see any reason to question his supplementation habits. The UFC doesn't drug test fighters - the state athletic commissions do, so if he's willing to fight in the US there's no reason he wouldn't be willing to fight in the UFC. The reason he didn't sign is because his management wanted him to be a package deal with other Red Devil fighters and he wanted to be able to compete in sambo tournaments outside of the UFC.

That being said, 2 of the UFC's 5 champions - and 3 of 5 until this month - are old Pride fighters. The "lack of success" has not been as widespread as it seemed at first. Most of it can be attributed to confirmation bias, luck of the draw, ring rust, bad matchups, etc, etc.

There's also stories that seem pretty reliable about some Pride fights being worked, shady bonuses to lose, creative and freakshow matchups, etc, but isn't this thread about boxing?

[ivan astikov]

I'm guessing the upcoming Cotto-Margarito fight is gonna be a great one.

Was you surprised by the outcome, david? I've only seen highlights of it, but Cotto looked pretty roughed up at the finish. And that Margarito looks massive for his weight.

[pravnik]

Was you surprised by the outcome, david? I've only seen highlights of it, but Cotto looked pretty roughed up at the finish. And that Margarito looks massive for his weight.I was a little surprised, I'm sorry I didn't see it. I probably would have put money on Cotto if I was the gambling type.

As long as the thread is bumped, I'm interested to see if Sequitorian is going to come back and elaborate on his Boxing v. MMA manifesto.

[ivan astikov]

I was a little surprised, I'm sorry I didn't see it. I probably would have put money on Cotto if I was the gambling type.

As long as the thread is bumped, I'm interested to see if Sequitorian is going to come back and elaborate on his Boxing v. MMA manifesto.

It was an interesting link, wasn't it. The Abu Ghraib comparison at the end was obviously for effect, and seemingly a little over the top, but I tended to agree with the general gist of the article. I've always been a fan of boxing and even did a little bit in my younger days, so appreciate how hard it is to be good, in what is a very unforgiving sport. I've also been in a few one on one street fights, and can appreciate the sort of abilities a good MMA fighter needs to have. From a purely aesthetic pov, I'd prefer to watch boxing, but MMA contests still have their appeal.

[Frank]

... but MMA contests still have their appeal.
In a different thread, perhaps, devoted to MMA. I would have hoped that another bump here would be talking about boxing. So I was wrong.

Mods, please close.

[ivan astikov]

In a different thread, perhaps, devoted to MMA. I would have hoped that another bump here would be talking about boxing. So I was wrong.

Mods, please close.

And what about this bit, Frank? I'd prefer to watch boxing :confused:

[Frank]

And what about this bit, Frank? :confused:
This thread has turned out to be somewhere about 50% about MMA. I'm not interested in continuing to check back in only to find that the bump is about the MMA. You want to talk boxing, fine. You want to talk MMA, start a new thread, please.

Not you personally, but the general you.

[ivan astikov]

I promise I won't mention it again after this post, Frank...in fact, I won't even mention it by name now. Do you not like it at all, and have you ever discussed it in any other threads?

[fluiddruid]

All right, probably best for everyone involved if we close this puppy.