"Barack...he's talking down to black people...telling niggers how to behave"

[astro]

At what point does it beccome unacceptable for black leaders to use the N word? Do they get a pass along with the rappers?

Jesse Jackson: Yep, He Used the Other 'N' Word, But... (http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/media_people/jesse_jackson_yep_he_used_the_other_n_word_but_89408.asp)

So, our pals at TVNewser got their hands on the Fox News transcript from Jesse Jackson's appearance last week (the one where he was caught on a hot mic saying he wantes to cut Barack Obama's nuts off). After a lot of speculation about what else Jackson might have said, it turns out he did use the real 'N' word, just not quite in the context people had been assuming, i.e. he did not call Obama a "..."

Barack...he's talking down to black people...telling n-s how to behave.

[Argent Towers]

I thought Jesse Jackson was against the word nigger in rap music? Didn't he have some kind of campaign to try to discourage rappers from using it?

I'm very surprised to read this. I never liked Jesse Jackson but I would never expect him to use that word.

[Paul in Qatar]

This is almost on-topic.

A couple of years ago I was in the DC area when Mike Tyson (he lived locally) was arrested for some darn thing or another. They interviewed the imam of his mosque, who explained, "Oh, we don't tell out members how to live their lives."

My sort of mosque.

[Revtim]

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/jesse.jackson.michael.2.333693.htmlRev. Jesse Jackson is calling for entertainers to stop using the N-word.

He and other leaders held a news conference in Los Angeles Monday, calling for the voluntary ban.I guess maybe it could be argued he's not an entertainer....

But regardless, this accusation comes from FOX news. Before passing judgment, I'd like to hear from a more reliable source. Like, say, the random coincidentally word-sounding gurglings of my lower digestive systems after I eat habanero burritos.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Who cares if he did say it? So what?

[Koxinga]

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/jesse.jackson.michael.2.333693.htmlI guess maybe it could be argued he's not an entertainer....

But regardless, this accusation comes from FOX news. Before passing judgment, I'd like to hear from a more reliable source. Like, say, the random coincidentally word-sounding gurglings of my lower digestive systems after I eat habanero burritos.

Really? Cite? Where have you found that Fox News itself is making this "accusation" rather than a third party source? ("TVNewser", not that I've ever heard of them.)

I look forward to hearing you apologize to Fox News :D

[Czarcasm]

Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates.

[Rubystreak]

Is this the same thing as what they showed on The Daily Show? Jesse Jackson said that he wanted to cut Obama's nuts off (http://www.nypost.com/seven/07092008/news/nationalnews/jesse_jackson_sharply_criticizes_obama_119161.htm) because he was talking down to black folks. It was picked up on a hot mic by Fox News. You can watch the video via this link and see that, IMO, Rev. Jackson was not joking, esp. with that little "mmm!" and gesture after the castration threat.

I have to wonder if Jackson is going senile or something. He says this in a FOX NEWS studio? With a mic on? Bad enough, but to say it at all, when he claims he supports Obama... I don't know about you, but I don't joke about cutting my friend's nuts off if my support for him is "wide, deep, and unequivocal." A little unclear about the meaning of "unequivocal," Rev. Jackson?

Personally, I don't care what Jesse Jackson thinks of Barack Obama. I think it makes Jackson look like an asshole, though, and I have to wonder how closely Obama will want to work with him after this.

[Koxinga]

I think it's a bit of an echo of Rev. Wright: hurt pride, and maybe a bit of fear, because this young fellow doesn't genuflect before the political and cultural totems that have kept them in business for so long. Hearing about guys like Wright and Jackson make me think of some the older black antagonists in Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Is this the same thing as what they showed on The Daily Show? Jesse Jackson said that he wanted to cut Obama's nuts off (http://www.nypost.com/seven/07092008/news/nationalnews/jesse_jackson_sharply_criticizes_obama_119161.htm) because he was talking down to black folks. It was picked up on a hot mic by Fox News. You can watch the video via this link and see that, IMO, Rev. Jackson was not joking, esp. with that little "mmm!" and gesture after the castration threat.
It's the same video, but Fox claims to have edited out the N-word part.
I have to wonder if Jackson is going senile or something. He says this in a FOX NEWS studio? With a mic on? Bad enough, but to say it at all, when he claims he supports Obama... I don't know about you, but I don't joke about cutting my friend's nuts off if my support for him is "wide, deep, and unequivocal." A little unclear about the meaning of "unequivocal," Rev. Jackson?

Personally, I don't care what Jesse Jackson thinks of Barack Obama. I think it makes Jackson look like an asshole, though, and I have to wonder how closely Obama will want to work with him after this.
Guys talk like that all the time with and about their friends. "I'm gonna cut his nuts off" is actually kind of mild. I don't know what their relationship is like, but I know that a comment like that is not enough to judge it by. Guys use some very strong and hyperbolic language with each other. To me, that comment sounded like the kind of remark an older mentor would say about or to someone he was trying to advise or coach.

[Rubystreak]

Guys talk like that all the time with and about their friends. "I'm gonna cut his nuts off" is actually kind of mild. I don't know what their relationship is like, but I know that a comment like that is not enough to judge it by. Guys use some very strong and hyperbolic language with each other. To me, that comment sounded like the kind of remark an older mentor would say about or to someone he was trying to advise or coach.

Would you say it while mic'ed at a Fox News studio while your buddy was running for President? Seems totally idiotic to me. Jackson should know better. I think less of him, having seen that. What is wrong with him?

[DMark]

I think it's a bit of an echo of Rev. Wright: hurt pride, and maybe a bit of fear, because this young fellow doesn't genuflect before the political and cultural totems that have kept them in business for so long...

I agree. I think Jesse Jackson and Julian Bond and other Black leaders from the 60's are all kind of pissed off that Obama has basically ignored them from day one. They seem to think they should be treated as wise elders and included into Obama's inner circle...and Jesse has shown exactly why Obama has made sure that proverbial 10 foot pole does not touch any of them.

I think Jesse Jackson has just sealed his fate as a footnote in the Civil Rights Movement and might as well open a fast food restaurant somewhere and disappear. His comments will not soon be forgotten. It is going to be hard to find even a Black church that wants to hear him speak after this dumbass debacle, let alone a wider audience. Even Jesse Jackson's own son practically dis-owned his father after those comments.

[Mosier]

Jackson didn't say he wanted to cut Obama's nuts off. He said that he expects Obama will get his nuts cut off, meaning that he's alienating his most loyal voter base.

[Drain Bead]

Jackson didn't say he wanted to cut Obama's nuts off. He said that he expects Obama will get his nuts cut off, meaning that he's alienating his most loyal voter base.

Having seen the video, I'd have to disagree with you on that interpretation.

[Paul in Qatar]

All in all, it was unethical for Fox to leak the footage. I have decided I will never appear on Fox and Friends because of this. I hope you will join me in my boycott.

[DSeid]

Far be it from me to defend Jackson, but there is a difference between using a word knowingly publicly (which this wasn't even though it was idiotic of him not to realize that it actually was) and in private conversation. I don't count this as hypocrisy, just stupidity.

Mosier hard to imagine how you can say that if you've actually seen the clip. "I wanna cut his nuts off." ... and the hand gesture at the time is priceless.

[Revtim]

Really? Cite? Where have you found that Fox News itself is making this "accusation" rather than a third party source?First sentence of the link in the OP. So, our pals at TVNewser got their hands on the Fox News transcript from Jesse Jackson's appearance last week (the one where he was caught on a hot mic saying he wantes to cut Barack Obama's nuts off).I admit I was overly harsh in my criticism of FOX though, if I had to bet money I'd bet the transcript was accurate.

[Johnny Angel]

This controversy came up long ago (in primary terms) when Obama was merely one of many contenders and none of the traditional black leaders were lining up to endorse him. Why not? One commenter on Salon noted, and I think this is probably right, that Obama got where he got without owing the black political establishment anything. You can characterize it as jealousy over burgeoning irrelevance, but people like Jesse Jackson got where they are playing in a political environment based on favors and clout, and in that environment they carried on a decades-long struggle to shoulder open the doors for people like Obama. You could call that a debt Obama owes to them, but he doesn't owe them anything in the sense of the favors that work a political machine, and he doesn't seem interested in getting caught in that machine either.

Furthermore, distance between Obama and the traditional black leadership has improved his chances, because many voters still have bone-deep grudges against that institution from back in the 80's for reasons they can't remember but will swear up-and-down had nothing to do with being racists. Obama does need to cut that ballast, but Jackson et al. still have the ear and not the antipathy of black voters.

[Marley23]

Who cares if he did say it? So what?
That's most of my reaction. "An elderly black man used the word 'niggers,' un-disparagingly, in taliing about black people? Holy shit, get me my pitchfork, torch and my good rioting pants!"

It's exceptionally stupid of Jackson to have said this around a live microphone, and especially one that said Fox News. I mean, holy crap- it's hard to imagine a more textbook example of something you shouldn't do. And it does make Jackson something of a minor hypocrite, but he's done worse there. And if you read between the lines, it was already clear he wasn't Obama's biggest fan, even if he does support him. This doesn't change that at all.

Since I think this is a non-issue that is going to get attention only as today's excuse to rehash all the old racial issues in this election, I have a different question: Why did Fox keep this quiet? It only would have amplified the story. Were they planning to hush it up entirely? If so, why? And if not, were they planning to use it this way and drag the story out a little longer? I just don't get it.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I think maybe they really did think it was irrelevant and really didn't want to make things worse than necessary, but then O'Reilly had to defeat that whole intention by opening his mouth and saying, in the most disingenuous way possible, "He said even WORSE stuff but we're not going to run it because we don't want to hurt him."

I think maybe Fox really was going to keep it under their hat, but O'Reilly, being the loud mouthed idiot that he is...

[Koxinga]

Maybe, like you, they didn't consider it newsworthy?

ETA: or, what he said.

[John Mace]

Who cares if he did say it? So what?
Can I quote you on that the next time someone on the right says something like that?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Can I quote you on that the next time someone on the right says something like that?
If they're black.

[John Mace]

If they're black.
What a crock. I don't know what world you live in, but in my world, the same rules apply to everyone. If we want to stop using "nigger", then everyone needs to stop using that word. If not, then so be it.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

What a crock. I don't know what world you live in, but in my world, the same rules apply to everyone. If we want to stop using "nigger", then everyone needs to stop using that word. If not, then so be it.
This, in my opinion, is the crock. I think there's a justified double standard.

[John Mace]

This, in my opinion, is the crock. I think there's a justified double standard.
Eh. If Blacks can use it in a non-offensive manner, than Whites can, too. That doesn't mean it's always non-offensive, but if we are all to live in the same society, then we need to all adhere to the same rules. Your kind of thinking is what led to separate but equal-- different rules depending on the color of one's skin.

[Magiver]

Guys talk like that all the time with and about their friends. "I'm gonna cut his nuts off" is actually kind of mild. None of my friends talk like that. Must hang with a different crowd.

When the Reverend Jesse Hymietown Jackson isn't busy banging out bastards he makes his money pimping the race card. His gravitas would fit in a thimble.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Eh. If Blacks can use it in a non-offensive manner, than Whites can, too.
No they can't.
That doesn't mean it's always non-offensive, but if we are all to live in the same society, then we need to all adhere to the same rules. Your kind of thinking is what led to separate but equal-- different rules depending on the color of one's skin.
We're not talking about laws here, just social perceptions of language.

[John Mace]

No they can't.
Why not?

We're not talking about laws here, just social perceptions of language.
Look up the meaning of "led".

[Mosier]

Far be it from me to defend Jackson, but there is a difference between using a word knowingly publicly (which this wasn't even though it was idiotic of him not to realize that it actually was) and in private conversation. I don't count this as hypocrisy, just stupidity.

Mosier hard to imagine how you can say that if you've actually seen the clip. "I wanna cut his nuts off." ... and the hand gesture at the time is priceless.

Yeah, I hadn't actually seen the video before I made that comment. I had read a Yahoo news article that implied the meaning I used earlier. It misquoted him as saying "Barack Obama is talking down to black people...he's going to get his nuts chopped off".

Now that I've actually seen the video I realize my mistake. That really was a monumentally stupid thing to say.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Why not?
Because it's racist when white people say it and it's not racist when black people say it. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

[Koxinga]

Because it's racist when white people say it and it's not racist when black people say it. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

I had a friend while I was in college, a white girl, who would call her black friends "nigga" all the time. She wasnt racist. I understand that it's not all that unusual, if you're kind of accepted into the crowd.

Oh, unless you meant it's racist when white people say it except when they aren't.

[John Mace]

Because it's racist when white people say it and it's not racist when black people say it.
Says you. You're not the authority on what is or what is not racist. In fact, that "rule" is itself racist, by the standard definition of the term.

I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
Because it's wrong.

[Marley23]

Eh. If Blacks can use it in a non-offensive manner, than Whites can, too. That doesn't mean it's always non-offensive, but if we are all to live in the same society, then we need to all adhere to the same rules. Your kind of thinking is what led to separate but equal-- different rules depending on the color of one's skin.
We could go about this until the cows come home... mmm, black cow (http://www.drinksmixer.com/drink1279.html)... but I don't agree with that description of what Dio said. The bottom line is this, in my view - and this is how it's always been - is that context matters, and the identity of the person speaking is part of context. You can say that's unfair, but I don't think it really is.

[John Mace]

We could go about this until the cows come home... mmm, black cow (http://www.drinksmixer.com/drink1279.html)... but I don't agree with that description of what Dio said. The bottom line is this, in my view - and this is how it's always been - is that context matters, and the identity of the person speaking is part of context. You can say that's unfair, but I don't think it really is.
Of course context matters. But the color of one's skin isn't the only context.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Of course context matters. But the color of one's skin isn't the only context.
It's the most important one, and honestly, I think complaining about the N-word double standard is just gamesmanship.

[Marley23]

Of course context matters. But the color of one's skin isn't the only context.
It certainly isn't, which is part of why I say the identity of the speaker - which can include skin color but is a much, much bigger category. I'm sure you have seen other threads on this board where this issue was broached. Almost invariably, a white Doper will say something about how it's okay for black people to call each other [nigger/nigga], and a black Doper will come along to explain that actually, plenty of black people are not okay with being called either term, particularly in polite conversation.

[mswas]

People don't know how to use curses effectively. I think this comes down to the fact that most people are ignorant of the art of cursing. Jesse Jackson was being sarcastic. That's not the same thing as glorifying the word in rap music. He's making a point about Obama looking down on 'niggers'. You know like Chris Rock's "There are black people and there are niggers.", kind of thing.

The thing about Hip Hop is a complete and total misdirection of the issue. They are completely unrelated. Jackson wasn't glorifying the term, he was using it to denote derision.

[John Mace]

It certainly isn't, which is part of why I say the identity of the speaker - which can include skin color but is a much, much bigger category. I'm sure you have seen other threads on this board where this issue was broached. Almost invariably, a white Doper will say something about how it's okay for black people to call each other [nigger/nigga], and a black Doper will come along to explain that actually, plenty of black people are not okay with being called either term, particularly in polite conversation.
I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. All I'm saying is that the word "nigger" is not automatically racist if it is uttered by a White person. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. Context matters.

[Bryan Ekers]

Jackson wasn't glorifying the term, he was using it to denote derision.

Uh-huh... and has he at any time muttered that he was gonna cut Chris Rock's nuts off (*hmmph!*) ?


Anyway, I (though white) reserve the right to say "nigger" or anything else, and I'll face the repercussions, if any, on an incident-by-incident basis.

[Marley23]

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. All I'm saying is that the word "nigger" is not automatically racist if it is uttered by a White person. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. Context matters.
I guess I agree with that on a case-by-case basis. If a white guy said, "Barack...he's talking down to black people...telling niggers how to behave," I think it would be pretty hard to read his intent.

Overall I'm not sure if I agree with you- but I read your comment about "We all have to adhere to the same rules" in a different way than you intended.

[sqweels]

Who cares if he did say it? So what?

Because it's fun to make a huge stink when famous people behave inappropriately.

[mlees]

I'm curious.

Jesse Jackson said that Barack was "talking down to black people... telling niggers how to behave".

Is there a chance that Jackson sees Barack as something outside of the black community? Is that why Jackson phrased it that way?

Barack was raised by his white grandmother, right? Is it assumed, then, that Barack did not "live the urban black experience"? (I haven't read Barack's book, so I don't know exactly what racism Barack has had to deal with while growing up.)

If a black baby was adopted and raised in a white upscale family, I assume that baby would grow up with the cultural quirks of it's adopted parents. Would that baby not be seen as "really black" by Jackson?

Could Jackson define black as more than just skin color, but a shared cultural experience, as well?

[Frylock]

People don't know how to use curses effectively. I think this comes down to the fact that most people are ignorant of the art of cursing. Jesse Jackson was being sarcastic. That's not the same thing as glorifying the word in rap music. He's making a point about Obama looking down on 'niggers'. You know like Chris Rock's "There are black people and there are niggers.", kind of thing.

The thing about Hip Hop is a complete and total misdirection of the issue. They are completely unrelated. Jackson wasn't glorifying the term, he was using it to denote derision.

I think this is about right. I read Jackson's statement not so much as using the word Nigger to denote black people, but rather reading the concept of "Nigger" into Obama's sentiments. In other words, Jackson is saying that Obama is showing that he regards the black community as worthy of the epithet "nigger."

Like if I said to a black person, "Oh, I guess you're going to show the cracker how it's done?" (Where "the cracker" refers to me.) I'm not using the term "cracker" to disparage white people, but rather, I am ascribing to the black person I'm talking to the sentiment that leads to the use of the term "cracker."

-FrL-

[Ludovic]

I think this is about right. I read Jackson's statement not so much as using the word Nigger to denote black people, but rather reading the concept of "Nigger" into Obama's sentiments. In other words, Jackson is saying that Obama is showing that he regards the black community as worthy of the epithet "nigger."

Like if I said to a black person, "Oh, I guess you're going to show the cracker how it's done?" (Where "the cracker" refers to me.) I'm not using the term "cracker" to disparage white people, but rather, I am ascribing to the black person I'm talking to the sentiment that leads to the use of the term "cracker."

-FrL-Speaking as someone who has had the N-word used against me that way multiple times, it, while perhaps not being racist, is still very offensive.

[mlees]

I think this is about right. I read Jackson's statement not so much as using the word Nigger to denote black people, but rather reading the concept of "Nigger" into Obama's sentiments. In other words, Jackson is saying that Obama is showing that he regards the black community as worthy of the epithet "nigger."

Like if I said to a black person, "Oh, I guess you're going to show the cracker how it's done?" (Where "the cracker" refers to me.) I'm not using the term "cracker" to disparage white people, but rather, I am ascribing to the black person I'm talking to the sentiment that leads to the use of the term "cracker."

-FrL-

But both men are black.

A closer analogy would be where you said "cracker" (refering to yourself) while talking to another white person. (Maybe that other person is a dreaded "Yankee".)

[Dumbguy]

Eh. If Blacks can use it in a non-offensive manner, than Whites can, too.You’re right John, this is racism. A black man in America can call another black man a nigger and get away with it. Jay-Z and Kanye West can even sell a couple million albums doing it. You and I, as white men, are discriminated against in this instance, and perhaps this is wrong. On the other hand, a typical black family in America makes about 60% as much, on average, as a typical white family. Given the opportunity to choose between these two forms of discrimination, which would you rather endure?

I'd be willing to bet that if and when we overcome real racism the symbolic nonsense will work itself out.

[buttonjockey308]

I'm curious.

Jesse Jackson said that Barack was "talking down to black people... telling niggers how to behave".

Is there a chance that Jackson sees Barack as something outside of the black community? Is that why Jackson phrased it that way?

Barack was raised by his white grandmother, right? Is it assumed, then, that Barack did not "live the urban black experience"? (I haven't read Barack's book, so I don't know exactly what racism Barack has had to deal with while growing up.)

If a black baby was adopted and raised in a white upscale family, I assume that baby would grow up with the cultural quirks of it's adopted parents. Would that baby not be seen as "really black" by Jackson?

Could Jackson define black as more than just skin color, but a shared cultural experience, as well?

Interesting take, though I think Koxinga was closer. I think Jesse will try (or is trying) to "get behind" some "real niggas" who ain't into "the man" tellin them how to behave.

Facts seem to be that Jesse Sr. isn't comfortable because Barack won't kiss his ass and won't kow-tow to the politics of hate that made JJ that big pile of cashola he's sitting on. Same goes, I think, for Wright. Both of them are insignificant against Baracks' campaign and against what he claims to stand for, so the only way to make the waves and rise above it is to say outlandish and outrageous things, even things that are the opposite of what you claim to stand for.

[descamisado]

Facts seem to be that Jesse Sr. isn't comfortable because Barack won't kiss his ass and won't kow-tow to the politics of hate that made JJ that big pile of cashola he's sitting on. Same goes, I think, for Wright. Both of them are insignificant against Baracks' campaign and against what he claims to stand for, so the only way to make the waves and rise above it is to say outlandish and outrageous things, even things that are the opposite of what you claim to stand for.One question: would the fact that Jackson apparently didn't know the microphone was on and thought it was a private exchange, then when this came out, immediately tried to re-spin what he had said change your interpretation of this particular event?

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you here.

[buttonjockey308]

One question: would the fact that Jackson apparently didn't know the microphone was on and thought it was a private exchange, then when this came out, immediately tried to re-spin what he had said change your interpretation of this particular event?

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you here.

I don't buy it. I think Jackson knows when the mic is hot and when it's not, he knows where he is and what he's up to all the time. A person in his position has to. So I don't think this was a "private conversation on a mic he didn't know was hot" I think it was something he came up with before hand (though I think the content was on the spur of the moment) knowing he would get attention just because he was at Fox.

My guess is that if this were at CNN, we'd never have heard it.

[Rubystreak]

I don't buy it. I think Jackson knows when the mic is hot and when it's not, he knows where he is and what he's up to all the time. A person in his position has to. So I don't think this was a "private conversation on a mic he didn't know was hot" I think it was something he came up with before hand (though I think the content was on the spur of the moment) knowing he would get attention just because he was at Fox.

My guess is that if this were at CNN, we'd never have heard it.

I have to agree with 5-4-Fighting and, in a way, Diogenes. I think it was intended to be a personal exchange between Jackson and the other man. However, it turned out not to be. Jackson should know better, but he had a critical discretion failure here (not his first, nor most egregious). I'm sure his words were meant colloquially, and in a crude but jocular way, out of frustration and annoyance and not true anger. It definitely was not meant to be publicized as it has been. Sure, Jackson supports Obama, but Obama also ticks him off, and he doesn't agree with everything he says, despite his public face of "unequivocal support." I'm sure this is true of a lot of candidates' high profile supporters, but not all of them shoot their mouths off in a stage whisper in front of a hot mic on FOX.

Bottom line: Jackson was an idiot in this situation, and no amount of spinning after the fact is going to change that everyone knows what he said now. As much as I am not a fan of FOX, seriously, how could they, especially, but any network not run this? It's as newsworthy as any of the crap that's making the rounds these days, and more titillating than most.

[descamisado]

Given Jackson's demeanor during the exchange and extreme efforts at re-spinning what he said, I think the more likely scenario is that Fox deliberately left the mike on to see if they could catch something that they could make hay with and use to create a few days' worth of headlines.

This seems especially true because of the way they released part of it, teased us with the rest and then somehow the true transcript of what was said got leaked.

Jackson has said many intentionally headline-grabbing things in the past with no hesitation. Why not just come and say he disagreed with Obama's Father's Day speech?

Even if this was something he believed about Obama and wanted to get attention with by going "public" instead of privately telling him, why go through all the sotto voce subterfuge, back-pedaling and loss of face? He's been sullied by this; so if he was going to be sullied anyway, why conduct himself in such a slithery way for nothing?

[Bryan Ekers]

Given Jackson's demeanor during the exchange and extreme efforts at re-spinning what he said, I think the more likely scenario is that Fox deliberately left the mike on to see if they could catch something that they could make hay with and use to create a few days' worth of headlines.

Barring a statement from a Fox employee to that effect, I call bullshit. I've done wiring jobs with microphones and it's always easier to leave the mike on (and turned down) than risk shutting it off and not being able (for some pain-in-the-ass reason) to get it started again. Also, you don't want the guy giving the presentation to start talking into a dead mike when you're not watching, because he'll start fucking around with it, trying to make it work, and screwing it up in the process.

[tomndebb]

You’re right John, this is racism. A black man in America can call another black man a nigger and get away with it. Jay-Z and Kanye West can even sell a couple million albums doing it. You and I, as white men, are discriminated against in this instance, and perhaps this is wrong.I do not see that there is any true discrimination, (using your phrase as a starting point for my comments and not challenging you, particularly).

I would agree with John Mace that the rules should be "the same" for everyone, but I think many folks are looking at the rules in the wrong way. The rules are based in "in group" and "out group," not on race. Race is an inadvertant set of baggage based in American history that confuses the issue.

It is not true that if it is OK for a black person to use the word "nigger," then it is OK for a white person to use the word "nigger." However, it is also true that it is not automatic racism for a white to use the word "nigger."

Let's step away from race for a moment. In the 1960s in Detroit, the ethnic groups in the white community that were the butts of the most jokes were the descendants of Italian and Polish immigrants. I had lots of classmates whose parents or grandparents were immigrants from Italy or Poland. The derogatory "Wop" and "Polack" were the most frequent ethnic slurs for those people. Now, you could get a fight going pretty easily by calling someone "Wop" or "Polack," whereas calling me (or anyone sharing my ethnic background) "Kraut" or "Mick" would get no more than a shrug and a "Yeah, I am, so what?" response.
So, there are some ethnic terms that can rile up people because they have current meaning as slurs while other ethnic terms carry no such baggage.*

Within those communities, a number of people used the terms as friendly insults, employing the logic and practice of drawing the sting from a weapon by employing it as a joke. Occasionally they were employed ironically. At other times they were used as actual insults in the sense that You are so bad/dumb/messed up that you actually provide evidence for those outsiders who regard us in this hateful way. Others within those communities always regarded such terms as insults, regardless who used them or why, and treated the words as taboo, prohibited from any use.

Given that, it was still true that I could get away with calling Stan or Luigi "Polack" or "Wop" as long as they knew and I knew that it was intended as friendly banter. (They had no ethnic slur to use against me, so they were liable to resort to questioning my intelligence or parentage or sexual identity, but within the realm of friendly banter, I had an insult that I could employ without serious offense.)
Thus, we do need to consider context as a mitigating factor. I might call Stan a dumb Polack, but I had better not call him that in front of his Dad (unless I had also established a similar level of friendship and respect with his father). I would certainly have been excoriated had I referred to Polacks or Wops if I was making a speech or being interviewed. Such general slurs would have been considered grossly rude behavior in any context outside the friendly banter of established friendships. Similarly, if I used such a slur to a friend (acceptably to them) in a locale where it would have been overheard by some person outside our cohort, I would have been perceived to have been rude. When a new person entered our class, I often saw situations where the use of such slurs, long accepted by the principals, was hostilely challenged by a newcomer.

Bringing it back to "race" and "nigger," we see the same rules. Some significant number of persons (of all ethnic backgrounds) look at the history of the word "nigger" and consider it outside the pale on every occasion. Some others, mostly within the population of blacks, but occasionally including a non-black who has established a friendship with some number of blacks, employ it as a way to display the comfort level of their friendship (we are such close friends that I can even call you a terrible name without giving offense). On the other hand, no one outside the group--or who has not been admitted to some small, friendly subset of the group) can employ thwe word without giving offense.

Diogenese is wrong when he insists that no white person may ever use "nigger" without being racist, but all the calls for "equality' or "the same rules" are really pretty dumb unless one has actually established a relationship with a particular set of individuals who accept one's use of the term. (And, if there does not happen to be a reciprocal slur that people can employ against the speaker, that just demonstrates that there is not perfect reciprocity in the world.)

* It is quite possible that "Mick" or "Kraut" might have been an insult in another locale--meanings do have geographic boundaries--but they bore no such stigma in 1960s Detroit.

[Dumbguy]

I agree Tom. My point was simply that discussions of race and discrimination in this country are pretty much always about language and never about actual disparities in quality of life. As long as our focus is on the symbolism of the issue and not the issue itself, it seems unlikely that anything will change.

If I have an education and a job, I don’t really give a damn what you call me.

[mswas]

Uh-huh... and has he at any time muttered that he was gonna cut Chris Rock's nuts off (*hmmph!*) ?


Anyway, I (though white) reserve the right to say "nigger" or anything else, and I'll face the repercussions, if any, on an incident-by-incident basis.

Yeah, there are about 100,000,000 more linguistic travesties I care more about than this one. Use the word however you want, etiquette has always been governed by social convention. If you want to rebel against social etiquette I think you should march into a restaurant shirtless and demand to be served. Etiquette really only matters based upon who hears you say it and speaks up to object. Lots of white people use the word nigger when surrounded by other white people, whether they have an affinity for it or not. I don't know why this double standard even bothers people. Who cares?

[Koxinga]

What about when Chinese people (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EbeLGqvpQDw) say "nigga"? (Video.)

[What the .... ?!?!]

Because it's racist when white people say it and it's not racist when black people say it. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

How black do you have to be? Is it ok for Obama to say it? Could I get a pass too if I could prove a drop of black blood?

[9thFloor]

At what point does it beccome unacceptable for black leaders to use the N word? Do they get a pass along with the rappers?

Jesse Jackson: Yep, He Used the Other 'N' Word, But... (http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/media_people/jesse_jackson_yep_he_used_the_other_n_word_but_89408.asp)

Check out http://youtube.com/watch?v=3HWXej9N8Vg snippet they had an entertaining argument with Whoopi and that other woman whose name I don't know saying that it's okay for black people to use the word but not white people.

As far as I'm concerned, Jackson was expressing his anger and frustration.

Obambi didn't use the word in his "should" speeches...he just treats the listeners as n-words by lecturing them.

It's not just black people though. He does it to everyone, it's who he is. He recently lectured folks to stop worrying about immigrants learning English and instead focus on them learning Spanish and their kids.

How many languages does Obama speak again? How many do his kids speak?

What a n-word (nincompoop, that is :D )

P.S. You have no idea if it's racist when a white person says it or not. You'd have to know what's intended and felt by the white person saying it. You don't.

[What the .... ?!?!]

You must have missed it ......... white people are presumed to be racist; black people cannot be racist.

[Koxinga]

You must have missed it ......... white people are presumed to be racist; black people cannot be racist.

I've heard people argue this in all earnestness.
ETA: Actually, in all vehemence might be a more accurate modifier.

[spifflog]

Given Jackson's demeanor during the exchange and extreme efforts at re-spinning what he said, I think the more likely scenario is that Fox deliberately left the mike on to see if they could catch something that they could make hay with and use to create a few days' worth of headlines.

This seems especially true because of the way they released part of it, teased us with the rest and then somehow the true transcript of what was said got leaked.

5-4, I know you lean way left and hate Fox, but you are now blaming Fox for this, and letting Jesse off the hook? That is some quality spin!

And even if it's true, which is a ridiculous assertions without some proof, Jackson still said it.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

How black do you have to be? Is it ok for Obama to say it? Could I get a pass too if I could prove a drop of black blood?
Let's just say if you're black enough to get pulled over for a DWB, you can say it.

Why do you care, about this double standard? Do you really want to be able to say the N-word? Does it really make your heart break for black people when Chris Rock says it?

It's always such bullshit when white people whine about this.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

You must have missed it ......... white people are presumed to be racist; black people cannot be racist.
No one in this thread has said that. What I've said is that it's not racist for black people to use the N-word.

[What the .... ?!?!]

Let's just say if you're black enough to get pulled over for a DWB, you can say it.

Why do you care, about this double standard? Do you really want to be able to say the N-word? Does it really make your heart break for black people when Chris Rock says it?

It's always such bullshit when white people whine about this.

Don't worry...I still use it whenever it seems appropriate to me.

What I really want is for those who like to speak for black people to quit wanting it both ways.

Suck it up and really want total equality......... or not.

[Bryan Ekers]

Do you really want to be able to say the N-word?

I dunno about him, but I certainly want to be able to say "nigger" or anything else that comes to mind. I have no illusion that I can say anything I want without repercussion, but I don't recognize that a dislike for prior restraint proves racism.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Don't worry...I still use it whenever it seems appropriate to me.
I have no doubt.
What I really want is for those who like to speak for black people to quit wanting it both ways.
Who's trying to speak for black people?
Suck it up and really want total equality......... or not.
What the fuck does equality have to do with it?

[Marley23]

Who's trying to speak for black people?
I suspect he meant Jesse Jackson.
What the fuck does equality have to do with it?
Yeah, I'm stumped on that one too.

I dunno about him, but I certainly want to be able to say "nigger" or anything else that comes to mind. I have no illusion that I can say anything I want without repercussion, but I don't recognize that a dislike for prior restraint proves racism.
I like the way you put this. I'm not going to worry much about it until racism is eliminated, but I'd like to be able to say "Nigga please! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Dragon)" once in a while without fearing for my life/job/reputation.

[Koxinga]

but I'd like to be able to say "Nigga please! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Dragon)" once in a while

:confused:

[John Mace]

Let's just say if you're black enough to get pulled over for a DWB, you can say it.

Why do you care, about this double standard? Do you really want to be able to say the N-word? Does it really make your heart break for black people when Chris Rock says it?

It's always such bullshit when white people whine about this.
White people are "whining" over this because you are making up arbitrary rules about we can and cannot say without being labeled a racist. Stop generalizing and we'll stop "whining".

[Marley23]

:confused:
It's a quote from the bad movie I linked to, but I probably should've linked to IMDB's quotes page instead. I think Wu Tang clan made that line - and another line about the villain, Sho'Nuff - into something of a catchphrase for a while.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

White people are "whining" over this because you are making up arbitrary rules about we can and cannot say without being labeled a racist. Stop generalizing and we'll stop "whining".
I'm not making rules, I'm making an observation about how things actually are. You're the one who wants to impose rules.

[Sarahfeena]

I think this is about right. I read Jackson's statement not so much as using the word Nigger to denote black people, but rather reading the concept of "Nigger" into Obama's sentiments. In other words, Jackson is saying that Obama is showing that he regards the black community as worthy of the epithet "nigger."

Like if I said to a black person, "Oh, I guess you're going to show the cracker how it's done?" (Where "the cracker" refers to me.) I'm not using the term "cracker" to disparage white people, but rather, I am ascribing to the black person I'm talking to the sentiment that leads to the use of the term "cracker."

-FrL- I think this is exactly right. And, in the way I'm interpreting it, it doesn't matter that they are both black, because I think part of Jackson's implication is that Obama is not quite Black...or that he's "not Black" enough to think he's better than or holds himself above Blacks as a group.

[The Controvert]

I'm not making rules, I'm making an observation about how things actually are. You're the one who wants to impose rules.Please let us know your first reaction to someone who posts the following on a message board:Hi Diogenes, what's up nigger?What's the correct rule?
According to your worldview, which of the following is the most correct reaction? :o :dubious: :confused: :eek: :mad: :( :) :rolleyes: :p ;) :D :cool:

Assume if you ask the person's race, they respond with "I am of the race that I believe is appropriate for me to use the n-word".

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Please let us know your first reaction to someone who posts the following on a message board:What's the correct rule?
According to your worldview, which of the following is the most correct reaction? :o :dubious: :confused: :eek: :mad: :( :) :rolleyes: :p ;) :D :cool:

Assume if you ask the person's race, they respond with "I am of the race that I believe is appropriate for me to use the n-word".
I wouldn't care at all. Why should I?

[descamisado]

Barring a statement from a Fox employee to that effect, I call bullshit. I've done wiring jobs with microphones and it's always easier to leave the mike on (and turned down) than risk shutting it off and not being able (for some pain-in-the-ass reason) to get it started again. Also, you don't want the guy giving the presentation to start talking into a dead mike when you're not watching, because he'll start fucking around with it, trying to make it work, and screwing it up in the process.You've heard of a mute button, right? Most sophisticated audio systems have them. Even people who talk through live mikes all the time for a living and take commercial breaks have been known to say things that got recorded or went out untintentionally. It's really not that farfetched if you try hard and think about it.

A host or sound person not using the available features on sophisticated audio/recording equipment because one might not be able to turn it back on or one fears the novice guest might mess with the equipment sounds more clearly like bullshit to me.

[descamisado]

5-4, I know you lean way left and hate Fox, but you are now blaming Fox for this, and letting Jesse off the hook? That is some quality spin!

And even if it's true, which is a ridiculous assertions without some proof, Jackson still said it.Re-read my post, you're putting words in my mouth.

Yes, Jackson did say it. And the words he said were awful and should never have been uttered, even if he thought he wouldn't be heard. If you read my post, I even expressed that given his emotion, there might have been some feeling which he could have expressed directly to Obama, as the speech rankled him so.

And, if you actually read my post, you'll see that I have agreed Jackson has said some pretty out-there things in the past just to capture headlines and grab attention, I just don't believe this is one of them. I actually lost respect for Jackson a long time ago.

Can you explain why they played this out as I described? I do believe Fox left the mike on and I blame them for that. I don't blame them for Jackson's words. He deserves full blame for those.

Read my previous post -- the full post.

[mswas]

"Nigga please! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Dragon)" once in a while without fearing for my life/job/reputation.


I've heard lots of white people say, "Nigga Please", in the presence of black people no less generally with no greater repercussion than a raised eyebrow saying, 'Oh boy there's another white boy trying to act black.' or 'Nigga please' for short. I really don't think it's as big a deal as many people think it is.

[Bryan Ekers]

Even people who talk through live mikes all the time for a living and take commercial breaks have been known to say things that got recorded or went out untintentionally.And this time, it was Jackson.A host or sound person not using the available features on sophisticated audio/recording equipment because one might not be able to turn it back on or one fears the novice guest might mess with the equipment sounds more clearly like bullshit to me.Well, I've been a sound person, and the rule was once everything was set up and tested, screw with it as little as possible because every adjustment you make increases the chance of something going wrong. You want to assert Fox left a hot mike for the purpose of catching Jackson saying something embarrassing, prove it.

[mswas]

I'm not making rules, I'm making an observation about how things actually are. You're the one who wants to impose rules.

I think most people are aware if what someone is saying is racist. As I pointed out above I've heard plenty of white people say, "nigga please", with no repercussions. I hear white people say, "My nigga", to their black or white friends. I wouldn't say it, not because I'm afraid of appearing racist, but because it just doesn't sound right coming from my mouth. I think the only people who really care about this are over 30 white dudes who are mildly socially awkward.

[descamisado]

And this time, it was Jackson.Well, I've been a sound person, and the rule was once everything was set up and tested, screw with it as little as possible because every adjustment you make increases the chance of something going wrong. You want to assert Fox left a hot mike for the purpose of catching Jackson saying something embarrassing, prove it.Even though this is GD, you know I can't prove what I'm saying -- any more than you can. All I can say is that when I was in college broadcast booths and sound engineer panels had mute buttons.

Also, I was responding to those who were saying Jackson was trying to sneak something in about Obama and get attention. It just doesn't make sense given (i) that he's already proven himself capable of making direct utterances to get in the spotlight and (ii) that he bothered to backpedal as hard as he could away from this.

If you read my post to spifflog, I'm not defending him or his words. It's just that it doesn't make sense that being sly was what he was trying to do.

[descamisado]

Even though this is GD, you know I can't prove what I'm saying -- any more than you can. All I can say is that when I was in college broadcast booths and sound engineer panels had mute buttons.Meant to write I was at times a d.j. and a newsreader.

And I must say it was a major assumption that I was defending Jackson* and simply looking at the logic of the thing.

* Especially since I don't think Obama -- or Cosby -- are too far off the mark in the issues they're trying to get black people to pay attention to.

[Bryan Ekers]

If you read my post to spifflog, I'm not defending him or his words. It's just that it doesn't make sense that being sly was what he was trying to do.
I don't care if you were, or if you agree with Jackson or think Jackson is an idiot, or think Jackson did it on purpose or if you think Jackson is an undercover Martian. I respond only to the ignorance expressed about the use of microphones and the suggestion that leaving a hot mike is a deliberate act of looking for something embarrassing, rather than a straightforward SOP.

But I have stated the standard of evidence that would convince me otherwise - a Fox employee admitting the intent.

[descamisado]

I don't care if you were, or if you agree with Jackson or think Jackson is an idiot, or think Jackson did it on purpose or if you think Jackson is an undercover Martian. I respond only to the ignorance expressed about the use of microphones and the suggestion that leaving a hot mike is a deliberate act of looking for something embarrassing, rather than a straightforward SOP.

But I have stated the standard of evidence that would convince me otherwise - a Fox employee admitting the intent.I don't care if you're convinced or not. I know what my experience has been. And this is Fox we're talking about. Since you're defending them, I'll have onsider the source and leave it alone at that wall.

And for someone who claims he knows something abuot sound, well . . . .

[Bryan Ekers]

If you're done editing...And this is Fox we're talking about. Since you're defending them, I'll have onsider the source and leave it alone at that wall.Yes, that's right, I'm defending Fox. This clearly proves that I'm in on the conspiracy to keep the black man down. I personally invented crack and AIDS back in the late seventies. Here's a heads-up: my newest project is codenamed "Moon" - it turns welfare queens into werewolves. The plan is to release it wide-scale at Hallowe'en so Bush can cancel the election and stay in office.And for someone who claims he knows something abuot sound, well . . . .Yes, that ellipsis is the perfect refutation of my experience. :rolleyes:

[descamisado]

If you're done editing...Yes, that's right, I'm defending Fox. This clearly proves that I'm in on the conspiracy to keep the black man down. I personally invented crack and AIDS back in the late seventies. Here's a heads-up: my newest project is codenamed "Moon" - it turns welfare queens into werewolves. The plan is to release it wide-scale at Hallowe'en so Bush can cancel the election and stay in office.Yes, that ellipsis is the perfect refutation of my experience. :rolleyes:Yeah, and putting words in my mouth proves me wrong? Point to and quote where I, or anyone else in this thread, ever said this was done to keep the black man down or anything like that. Those shibboleths you brought up keep only you awake at night and, note, you're the only one in this thread who brought them up.

I never said I believed it was to keep the black man down. I said they did it create headlines! Please, read for comprehension.

You post are beginnign to resemble the act of a persecuted white man. It's not becoming.

[Bryan Ekers]

Yeah, and putting words in my mouth proves me wrong? Point to and quote where I, or anyone else in this thread, ever said this was done to keep the black man down or anything like that. Those shibboleths you brought up keep only you awake at night and, note, you're the only one in this thread who brought them up.
Hey, if you're going make up crap about me, I may as well make up crap about me, too. I personally shot Martin Luther King, though it wasn't about race - it was because he'd dinged my car. And that whole slavery thing? Stemmed from a report I wrote in my AP economics class. It only got a B, though.
I said they did it create headlines!
Well of course they reported it to create headlines. I mean, that's a big fat "duh". Your assertion, though, was that Fox "deliberately left the mike on to see if they could catch something". The more likely reason is they deliberately left the mike on because it's a normal practice to do so.
You post are beginnign to resemble the act of a persecuted white man.
Well, I was hanged in Indianapolis for killing an Indian...

[descamisado]

Well, I was hanged in Indianapolis for killing an Indian...Excuse me, I getting bored. I need to leave this debate thread and go take up the challenge of arguing with a sack of hair.

[Bryan Ekers]

Excuse me, I getting bored. I need to leave this debate adn go take up the challenge of arguing with a sack of hair.
Going back to your roots, huh?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

None of my friends talk like that. Must hang with a different crowd.

When the Reverend Jesse Hymietown Jackson isn't busy banging out bastards he makes his money pimping the race card. His gravitas would fit in a thimble.
Yeah. I can't stand that self-aggrandizing, grandstanding idiot either. I think guys like him do more harm than good by perpetuating the victim mentality amongst minorities, in this case, African Americans.

[descamisado]

deleted.

[descamisado]

Going back to your roots, huh?No, just wanted to raise the level of discourse higher than what it has devolved to here.

At least I tried to honestly respond to the actual issues raised.

[Bryan Ekers]

No, just wanted to raise the level of discourse.

Hair-raising, huh?


If I'm going too fast for you, let me know.

[descamisado]

Hair-raising, huh?


If I'm going too fast for you, let me know.No, it just wasn't clever enough to commit on, nor on-topic.

Now my six-year-old neighbor, she might giggle at such a punny.

[Bryan Ekers]

No, it just wasn't clever enough to commit on, nor on-topic.

Now my six-year-old neighbor, she might like it.

Well, bring her by. Maybe she has a better handle on technical matters.


Couldn't be worse than yours, anyway.

Should I wait at least five minutes after each of your posts so you can get all the edits out of your system?

[tomndebb]

I respond only to the ignorance expressed about the use of microphones and the suggestion that leaving a hot mike is a deliberate act of looking for something embarrassing, rather than a straightforward SOP.And you think that that was sufficiently important, (even IF accurate), that we need to derail this thread with half a page of personal sniping on the topic?

Both you and 5-4-Fighting would be much better off simply dropping the subject (or taking it to e-mail or the Pit).

Let it go.

[ /Moderating ]

[mswas]

Bryan Ekers however, is correct. Anyone who has ever done sound knows that leaving it on is SOP. Jesse Jackson is a seasoned political operative, he should've known better. He's an idiot, the sound techs did their jobs the way they normally would. Just chiming my agreement here hoping it might help put it to rest.

[tomndebb]

Bryan Ekers however, is correct. Anyone who has ever done sound knows that leaving it on is SOP. Jesse Jackson is a seasoned political operative, he should've known better. He's an idiot, the sound techs did their jobs the way they normally would. Just chiming my agreement here hoping it might help put it to rest.Given that the disagreement has already gottern personal, is not really relevant to the topic, and has already caught the official attention of a Mod, was there a desperate need to chime in at this point?

I understand the argument. I also recognize that it will not carry forward the actual point of the OP to worry it to death.

Let it go.

[ /Modding ]

[What the .... ?!?!]

Maybe we can learn something about the acceptable use of the word "nigger"........

What if JJ had said that "he's talking down to niggers ...telling black people how to behave" ??

[tomndebb]

Maybe we can learn something about the acceptable use of the word "nigger"........

What if JJ had said that "he's talking down to niggers ...telling black people how to behave" ??You seem to be playing word games, here. Regardless of the construction, some posters will find the word nigger unacceptable by all speakers on all occasions, some posters will find the use of that word unacceptable when employed by various sub-divisions of the population and given a pass when employed by others. Changing the word order is really not going to change the opinions of those posters, so there does not appear to be anything to be "learned" simply by haggling over whether using the insulting term in the first or second clause is more or less acceptable--particularly since there will be no authority to whom to appeal to settle the disagreement.

[elfkin477]

I think this is exactly right. And, in the way I'm interpreting it, it doesn't matter that they are both black, because I think part of Jackson's implication is that Obama is not quite Black...or that he's "not Black" enough to think he's better than or holds himself above Blacks as a group. I think it's the latter. It seems as though Jackson thinks Obama holds himself apart because he considers himself above it all. I interpreted Jackson's statement to mean something along the lines of "Just who does this uppity elitist think he is to look down on people and think they need him to tell them how to behave properly?"

[ElvisL1ves]

Chris Rock has had one hell of a lot more to say about "how black people should behave" than Obama has. Is Jackson pissed at him, too?

Looks like simple jealousy to me - Jackson's long, lucrative, and ego-stroking run as the media's favorite Spokesman for the Black Community is at an end, and he's having trouble dealing with it.

[Rubystreak]

Can I ask maybe a dumb question? Are Obama and Jackson friends? Do they seem to like each other and truly be allies? Could Jackson have just been graphically bitching about what he perceives as an obnoxious comment by someone he otherwise likes and respects? Or was he really being nasty and hateful? I just cannot tell. When I first saw it, I thought Jackson was actually angry at Obama and was expressing dislike. Then Diogenes mentioned that maybe he was speaking crudely and harshly about a friend. I don't have enough information to decide which it was.

Either way, saying it in front of a camera was stupid.