Do front-loading washers clean as well as top-loaders?

[Green Cymbeline]

I'm used to using a top-loading washing machine, but yesterday I did my laundry at my brother's house, where he recently got a new front-loading washer. I watched it work, and it seems to me that it can't possibly clean as well as a top-loader because the clothes are never fully immersed in the water.

It went like this: the clothes spun around while a meager amount of water spurted on them in periodic bursts. The clothes became damp, but never appeared to be fully soaked and were never fully immersed in water.

In a top-loader, the clothes are fully submerged in water and agitated briskly, which I would think would clean a lot more deeply.

So what's the straight dope on front-loaders?? Can they clean as well as top-loaders without fully submerging the clothes?

[DudleyGarrett]

We just got a pair of the Whirlpool Duets (washer and dryer), and the washer does better than our top loader, believe it or not. It's pretty weird though that your clothes will come out of it just damp due to small amount of water it uses.

[What Exit?]

Every report I read says they clean better while using less water and as they use less water and come out dryer, they also dry quicker and thus save you energy overall as the dryer is a big energy hog.

If you know anyone that gets Consumer Reports, see if you can get them to find the article that Consumer Reports did on front loaders.

Correction: I just found out that this year's report from February found some top loaders that were almost as good at washing as the $1500 top loaders.

[Green Cymbeline]

So, how does that work? How do they get clothes as clean by just spurting a meager amount of water on the clothes as opposed to submerging the clothes completely and agitating them?

Even though Consumer Reports is saying they clean even better... something in me likes to see my dirty clothes fully submerged in water, being agitated briskly.

[What Exit?]

Until an expert shows up on how they work, try here in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_machine#Modern_machines).
The front loading design, most popular in Europe and the Middle East, mounts the inner basket and outer tub horizontally, and loading is through a door at the front of the machine. The door often but not always contains a window. Agitation is supplied by the back-and-forth rotation of the cylinder and by gravity. The clothes are lifted up by paddles on the inside wall of the drum and then dropped. This motion flexes the weave of the fabric and forces water and detergent solution through the clothes load. Because the wash action does not require the clothing be freely suspended in water, only enough water is needed to moisten the fabric. Because less water is required, front-loaders typically use less soap, and the aggressive dropping and folding action of the tumbling can easily produce large amounts of foam.

Front-loaders control water usage through the surface tension of water, and the capillary wicking action this creates in the fabric weave. A front-loader washer always fills to the same low water level, but a large pile of dry clothing standing in water will soak up the moisture, causing the water level to drop. The washer then refills to maintain the original water level. Because it takes time for this water absorption to occur with a motionless pile of fabric, nearly all front-loaders begin the washing process by slowly tumbling the clothing under the stream of water entering and filling the drum, to rapidly saturate the dry clothes with water.

[Green Cymbeline]

Until an expert shows up on how they work, try here in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_machine#Modern_machines).
Thanks for that info. That explains it well.

Although I am still a bit skeptical... I want my clothes to be fully submerged and immersed in water! :dubious:

[What Exit?]

Thanks for that info. That explains it well.

Although I am still a bit skeptical... I want my clothes to be fully submerged and immersed in water! :dubious:
Personally I plan to wait until either my washer breaks or about 4 years as the improvements in washers seem to be moving fast these days and both Presidential candidates support but higher efficiencies in appliances. I have an mediocre Kenmore "Heavy Duty Super Capacity Plus"* top loader.


* I kid you not, that is really what Kenmore calls it.

[Napier]

>I want my clothes to be fully submerged and immersed in water!

What for? The water above them isn't even touching them.

You need water to provide attractive forces in all directions for particles, to dissolve the water soluble contaminants like salt from sweat, and as a vehicle for surfactant and other cleaning agents. You need surfactant to create rollup on the greases, and to act as a sequestrant. Sequestration might work better if you diluted the contaminants more, but because sequestrants are surfactants you really need more surface area, and the foam and all the surfaces of the water broken by fabric would provide that.

Everything I ever heard said that tumbling on a horizontal axis works way better than trying to achieve similar motions using a vertical axis. If you want to think of it this way, consider that the interface between air and water, which is a somewhat strong surface that you could actually move through your laundry, sits unused above the wash liquor in a top loader.

[miamouse]

I got a front loader a few years ago. The paddles described in the wiki article have jets that force water into the loads. My water bill went down drastically, about $1,000 in the first year, and my clothes look better: the color stays better, they look newer longer. I have three boys under the age of 13, and there is no problem getting their clothes clean, unless you overload, which you shouldn't do in a top loader either.

When you think about it, less water would cause more friction as the clothes rub/roll against each other.

[Anaptyxis]

We just got a pair of the Whirlpool Duets (washer and dryer), and the washer does better than our top loader, believe it or not. It's pretty weird though that your clothes will come out of it just damp due to small amount of water it uses.
I'm not a washing machine expert of any kind, but one of the reasons why clothes come out of a front-loader merely damp is because the spin cycle is far more vigorous. This is another way in which they save energy, because you then don't have to run the dryer for as long. Or, if you're me, you can just hang stuff up and it's dry within a few hours without expending any additional energy.

[Mangetout]

Thanks for that info. That explains it well.

Although I am still a bit skeptical... I want my clothes to be fully submerged and immersed in water! :dubious:
The way you've described front-loaders isn't really accurate - they may not fully immerse the clothing at all times, but they do more than just spraying them and getting them a bit damp.

The drum partially fills with water and the drum rotates - this means the clothes tumble in and out of the water - the tumbling and dropping motion of the clothes inside the drum is analogous to the kind of repeated soaking, draining and kneading that might occur during vigorous hand washing. - In a top loader where the clothes are fully immersed, the paddle can only really stir the contents all together - there isn't any time (apart from when the tub is emptied) when the clothes are lifted out of the cleaning solution for water and dirt to drain out of them - in a front loader, it happens on each rotation.

[Desert Nomad]

One other benefit is that the front loaders are much less stressful on your clothes and the fabric will last longer.

[amarone]

I got a front loader a few years ago. The paddles described in the wiki article have jets that force water into the loads. My water bill went down drastically, about $1,000 Wow - how do you get a water bill high enough to be able to reduce it by $1,000? We have two boys, a top-loader and a dishwasher and our combined water/sewage bill was less than $600 for the last 12 months (and yes, we do shower every day).

[What Exit?]

Wow - how do you get a water bill high enough to be able to reduce it by $1,000? We have two boys, a top-loader and a dishwasher and our combined water/sewage bill was less than $600 for the last 12 months (and yes, we do shower every day).
Water bills vary by area a lot. In the town I use to live in we had well water and septic and I was overjoyed. Friends down the road from us paid $2500 for city water and sewer on average. This was 8 years already. A $1000 sounds high, but I am sure my old town was nowhere near the worst in the country. By current water bills are so low that I barely worry about the cost, though I use low flow shower heads and I am somewhat careful with water use anyway. My water bills work out to only about $360 per year for a family of four.

[miamouse]

Wow - how do you get a water bill high enough to be able to reduce it by $1,000? We have two boys, a top-loader and a dishwasher and our combined water/sewage bill was less than $600 for the last 12 months (and yes, we do shower every day).Living here three years ago were me, my husband (who makes big messes), our three boys, my MIL and a foster child. The youngest was of an age where bed wetting was an issue.

One year's worth of water with just me husband and three boys last year was about $1,150.

[Tastes of Chocolate]

I've been using front load washers for about 14 years now. I've installed them in the last 4 houses/condos I've owned. I find that my cloths are at least as clean as the top loader. In addition the front loaders seem to do a better job of rinsing out the soap at the end of the run. Have you ever pulled a load of towels out of the washer and heard the soap still crinkling in the towels? I don't get that any more.

The only downsides I've found to front loaders are: You can't add that last sock, once you've started the load. If the washer isn't on the lowest level, you can get rattling when they start spinning. They are more expensive, but the difference is getting smaller.

[Joey P]

Thanks for that info. That explains it well.

Although I am still a bit skeptical... I want my clothes to be fully submerged and immersed in water! :dubious:
But the question is...do they need to be agitated briskly?

[seosamh]

Funny, you very rarely see a top-loader in Britain - the vast majority of washing machines these days are front-loaders.

[BaneSidhe]

We don't have a front-loading washer at home, but the next one we get will be.

I'll tell you all something, NOTHING gets horse clothing [blankets, sheets and so on] cleaner without using a ton of soap which takes forever to rinse out.

[MaceMan]

I read the review of washers and dryers in Consumer Reports awhile ago, and remember reading that even the more expensive newer-style, water-saving washers do not outperform some of the cheapest top-loaders available for purchase only a few years ago, before government regulations requiring reduced energy (= less agitation) and water usage crippled their washing capability. Because of these new energy regulations, the front-loaders work better now than many of the newer top loaders.

However, repair history isn't necessarily great for the front-loaders, and the time required to wash a load is a LOT longer. I recall seeing 45-60 minutes for a front-loaded wash cycle being compared to only 15 or less with a top-loader.

[Max Torque]

The only downsides I've found to front loaders are: You can't add that last sock, once you've started the load. If the washer isn't on the lowest level, you can get rattling when they start spinning. They are more expensive, but the difference is getting smaller.
Here's one solution to the "vibrating washer" problem, which my father tried with great success: put the washer on a "stall mat". A stall mat is a heavy-duty rubber pad that is usually put in horse stalls for added comfort, and they're made to withstand a full-grown horse standing on them all day without sliding around. I believe my dad got his on sale for around $30. The thick rubber padding pretty much eliminates any vibration noise, and his Whirlpool Duet on a ceramic tile floor used to make a pretty good racket. I've even heard it eliminates the noise you can get when your washer's installed on an upper story of the house.

I'll tell y'all this: if you're looking to upgrade your washer and dryer, keep your eyes peeled for good sales. My parents and I got ours at a Best Buy appliance sale where they were giving 10% off if you bought two appliances, 15% for three, and 20% for four. So, we pitched in together and bought a washer and dryer for each of us on the same ticket, and with 20% off, it was just about like getting one for free.

[Mr. Moto]

I'll tell y'all this: if you're looking to upgrade your washer and dryer, keep your eyes peeled for good sales. My parents and I got ours at a Best Buy appliance sale where they were giving 10% off if you bought two appliances, 15% for three, and 20% for four. So, we pitched in together and bought a washer and dryer for each of us on the same ticket, and with 20% off, it was just about like getting one for free.

We bought ours at the Sears scratch 'n dent. Who cares if your washer is scratched? And in our case, the defects were barely noticeable anyway.

We bought a front loading washer and matching dryer, and paid about what the washer would have cost new - plus we claimed the tax credit that year on our return.

[Patty O'Furniture]

>I want my clothes to be fully submerged and immersed in water!

What for? The water above them isn't even touching them.

I suspect it's the satisfied feeling that the clothes are "taking a bath" when they are submerged, instead of just being tossed around with a few cups of water.

But we don't clean dishes that way, why should we do it with clothes?

Makes me wonder, was there ever a time when the very first dishwashers filled a drum with water and then agitated to jostle the submerged dishes around?

My LG front loader does both wash and dry in the same drum and I've noticed less laundry related wear & tear on my clothes. It just seems like the front loading machine treats them better.

[elelle]

I've had a front-loader for about 6 months, when the old top loader broke down, and it would have cost more to fix than replace. It gets the clothes just as clean, and uses way less water. One thing, though, I notice; Using a liquid fabric softener doesn't quite do the job like an agitating machine. The clothes aren't as light and fluffy, which I miss. Anyone know the reason for that???? Perhaps a liquid fabric softener innovation will come in due course.

An additional reason in saving energy is that less, or perhaps just more concentrated, detergent is used. Those bottles on the soap aisle at the store have now shrunk down, so, less plastic packaging, and space used in shipping.

[What Exit?]

... One thing, though, I notice; Using a liquid fabric softener doesn't quite do the job like an agitating machine. The clothes aren't as light and fluffy, which I miss. Anyone know the reason for that???? Perhaps a liquid fabric softener innovation will come in due course.

You could try switching to dryer sheets. I found they work almost as well as the softener in the top loader, so they might prove more effective in your case. They soften and cut down on static as a bonus.

[gaffa]

One additional fact: virtually all washers in commercial coin laundries are front loading. They have to wash clothes thoroughly and well (to ensure repeat customers) yet use as little energy as possible (to remain profitable). Most of the laundromats I've been in have a few top loaders, but the majority will be various sizes of front loader.

I use a Whirlpool Duet, and it is very effective in spite of my habit of shoving all my clothes - no matter what color, material or degree of soil - in and washing it all on warm. My clothes get no coddling!

[Green Cymbeline]

I suspect it's the satisfied feeling that the clothes are "taking a bath" when they are submerged, instead of just being tossed around with a few cups of water.Yes, this describes my feelings perfectly.
But we don't clean dishes that way, why should we do it with clothes?I don't have a dishwasher, so I wash my dishes in a filled sink. Same idea - they get to soak fully submerged in water. I like it.

I'm still not sold on the front-loaders, despite all the raves in this thread. One reason is that the wash cycle seems to take much longer. Why is that? Is it because it takes longer for the clothes to soak up the meager amount of water used?

[WhyNot]

...the time required to wash a load is a LOT longer. I recall seeing 45-60 minutes for a front-loaded wash cycle being compared to only 15 or less with a top-loader.
This was my biggest complaint using my mother-in-law's super duper new HE washer. A regular "normal wash, warm/cold" cycle is 51 minutes! An "extra dirty" cycle was an hour twenty!!! And my teenager's socks were still vaguely grey, just like at home with the 20 minute wash cycle of the 10 year old top loaders we have downstairs in our apartment building.

The dryer cycle was the same, no shorter than mine, about 45 minutes. Hers said 41 minutes, but it had that "Approx." in front of it, and the last 15 minutes took more like 25.

[What Exit?]

This was my biggest complaint using my mother-in-law's super duper new HE washer. A regular "normal wash, warm/cold" cycle is 51 minutes! An "extra dirty" cycle was an hour twenty!!! And my teenager's socks were still vaguely grey, just like at home with the 20 minute wash cycle of the 10 year old top loaders we have downstairs in our apartment building.

The dryer cycle was the same, no shorter than mine, about 45 minutes. Hers said 41 minutes, but it had that "Approx." in front of it, and the last 15 minutes took more like 25.
That's odd, the front load washers clearly take longer, but the dryer should be faster. She might have a problem with her dryer. If the exhaust hose is partially blocked it can add a lot of time to the drying. I clean my hose out about once a year as it is a long one and with two kids we use the dryer a lot. My drying time is usually around 60+ minutes with my top loader.

I am surprised you can dry a load in 45 minutes. What dryer do you have, it sounds like a good model.

Another thought, is yours gas and your MIL's electric?

Jim

[WhyNot]

That's odd, the front load washers clearly take longer, but the dryer should be faster. She might have a problem with her dryer. If the exhaust hose is partially blocked it can add a lot of time to the drying. I clean my hose out about once a year as it is a long one and with two kids we use the dryer a lot. My drying time is usually around 60+ minutes with my top loader.

I am surprised you can dry a load in 45 minutes. What dryer do you have, it sounds like a good model.

Another thought, is yours gas and your MIL's electric?

Jim
Y'know, I'm not sure if ours is gas or not. Hers is gas. Hers is (was, at the time of washing) 8 days old, so if there's something wrong with the exhaust hose, there's An Issue.

Our dryer at home is a Speed Queen Commercial Dryer (to match the Speed Queen Commercial Washer). They're not mine, they belong to the landlord, of course. My only real complaint about them is that they're coin operated. Oh, to have my very own washer and dryer someday! :D They're the same brand of machines that have been in my last three buildings. They're not really "Commercial" any more than a Kenmore range is a "Commercial grade stovetop!" They're just your generic "large" capacity machines. (Not really large at all - about 6 pairs of jeans, tops.)

Looks like this (http://www.speedqueen.com/route/products/prod_dryer.htm) although I have no idea if it's the same model or not. I know I've been here 3 years and it's not newer than that.

[What Exit?]

Y'know, I'm not sure if ours is gas or not. Hers is gas. Hers is (was, at the time of washing) 8 days old, so if there's something wrong with the exhaust hose, there's An Issue.
...
Thank you.

I wonder if they cleaned out the exhaust before hooking up the new dryer. That could be a problem. If the dryer is new, maybe it is some sort of new lower heat model to save energy. :confused:

When I buy my next dryer, I need to shop more carefully. We got the current Washer & Dryer without shopping around as we were too busy with everything else needed for the move.

[Cillasi]

I've been researching washers and dryers for the past year while formulating remodeling plans, and American front loaders typically have a problem with mold. Front loaders should remain open after use to allow the insides to dry out. This is important for me because I don't have much room and where I'm planning to put the washer, it would be imprudent to leave the door hanging open.

It's not advisable to use liquid fabric softeners in front loaders because they can coat the outside of the drum creating a nice medium for mold to grow. You should use the high efficiency detergents if indicated because again, the soap scum may provide a medium for molds to grow.

Front loaders also seem to be more expensive to fix. The rubber seals on some brands seem to deteriorate rather quickly and they are quite expensive to replace. One company even allowed dissatisfied customers to trade in their front loaders for a top loader (I think it was Sears, but I'm not certain).

So, even though a front loader would allow me to stack and save space, unless I read something that seriously tips the scales in favor of front loaders, I think I'll be getting a top loader.


That's odd, the front load washers clearly take longer, but the dryer should be faster. She might have a problem with her dryer. If the exhaust hose is partially blocked it can add a lot of time to the drying. I clean my hose out about once a year as it is a long one and with two kids we use the dryer a lot. My drying time is usually around 60+ minutes with my top loader.

I am surprised you can dry a load in 45 minutes. What dryer do you have, it sounds like a good model.

Another thought, is yours gas and your MIL's electric?

Jim

[elelle]

You could try switching to dryer sheets. I found they work almost as well as the softener in the top loader, so they might prove more effective in your case. They soften and cut down on static as a bonus.

Using dryer sheets with a top loader was less than satisfying for me. I think that liquid fabric softener does a better job. And, I hafta say, it appears that LFS is better when saturated in solution, as in an agitating machine. And, I am pretty sad and picky when it comes to fabric softeners, will open up and smell every damn bottle, and only a scant few pass my nose test. It's a luxury I like...

Cillasi sez not to use liquid fabric softeners, but my machine has a dispenser for them. Gonna have to look into the absolute physics of fabric softeners, then.

And. WhyNot, my experience is that the longer wash time is well made up by the quicker drying time. Mine's an electric.

[Mangetout]

I'm still not sold on the front-loaders, despite all the raves in this thread. One reason is that the wash cycle seems to take much longer. Why is that? Is it because it takes longer for the clothes to soak up the meager amount of water used?The wash cycle typically consists of a few different actions, often repeated more than once (i.e. fill-agitate-soak-agitate-drain-rinse fill-agitate... etc. I don't think it takes longer for the water to soak through clothing just because the drum is on its side (this seems to indicate you're still under the impression that the clothes only get damp).

They're automatic washing machines - you can leave them unattended and do something else while they wash the laundry - does the cycle time matter all that much?

[Omniscient]

I'm still not sold on the front-loaders, despite all the raves in this thread. One reason is that the wash cycle seems to take much longer. Why is that? Is it because it takes longer for the clothes to soak up the meager amount of water used?

I think the point is that effective cleaning isn't really about the amount of water, it's about the amount of agitation. Front loaders agitate much more efficiently, top loaders compensate for less agitation with more water. You just need to have enough water to dissolve anything, once you get to that critical point adding more water doesn't have any benefit chemically.

[Green Cymbeline]

They're automatic washing machines - you can leave them unattended and do something else while they wash the laundry - does the cycle time matter all that much?Definitely. It's much more convenient to have a load of laundry washed and dried in 1.25 hours (what my current top-loading w&d does) as opposed to 3 hours. A lot of times, I will wash an outfit that I want to wear that same day, so it needs to be done quickly.

[miamouse]

Definitely. It's much more convenient to have a load of laundry washed and dried in 1.25 hours (what my current top-loading w&d does) as opposed to 3 hours. A lot of times, I will wash an outfit that I want to wear that same day, so it needs to be done quickly.I noticed this too when I first got the machine, now I always use the quick cycle button, and the time is 28 minutes. Little boy clothes still come out clean. Every once in a while I have to wash the whites on a normal cycle which is 51 minutes. I did this too when I had a top loader, but it was in the form of letting it soak with the lid open.

[Mangetout]

Definitely. It's much more convenient to have a load of laundry washed and dried in 1.25 hours (what my current top-loading w&d does) as opposed to 3 hours. A lot of times, I will wash an outfit that I want to wear that same day, so it needs to be done quickly.
Are you talking about a garment you've only just taken off? In that case, I guess you'd need a faster turnaround time. <shrug> I can't say I've ever found myself in that situation - my clothes get washed and dried after I've worn them, then they're stored in the wardrobe and I take them from there to wear them.

Quick wash cycle on my automatic washing machine takes a little over half an hour, including the spin - this is with a reduced load, but I can't imagine a situation where I'd want more than a couple of garments washed straight away.

[Max Torque]

I've been researching washers and dryers for the past year while formulating remodeling plans, and American front loaders typically have a problem with mold. Front loaders should remain open after use to allow the insides to dry out. This is important for me because I don't have much room and where I'm planning to put the washer, it would be imprudent to leave the door hanging open.

It's not advisable to use liquid fabric softeners in front loaders because they can coat the outside of the drum creating a nice medium for mold to grow. You should use the high efficiency detergents if indicated because again, the soap scum may provide a medium for molds to grow.
The Whirlpool Duet I have (which seems like a popular model, based on this thread) has a "Clean Washer" cycle on the dial. About once a month, when you're not using the washer for anything else, you run that cycle with about 2/3 of a cup of bleach in the dispenser, with no other detergents or clothes in the machine. The machine runs a special cycle with hot water and bleach to clean out the drum thoroughly. They say that'll keep any nasties from invading. And of course leaving the door open to allow the innards to dry between laundry sessions is a big help, as well.

As for the fabric softener, I've never heard of a problem with it, and there's a special compartment in the detergent dispenser drawer just for liquid fabric softener (there are three separate compartments, for detergent, bleach, and softener), so it seems odd that they'd advise against it while providing a convenient means to use it. One thing that people apparently have to adjust to is that front loaders are very efficient, and therefore they use less of everything. If you use as much detergent, bleach, and softener as you used to use in your top-loading machine, you'll be using too much, and that, I would imagine, could indeed cause a problem.

As far as the speed issue goes, I think that the ability to wash larger loads makes up for the slower wash cycles. The instructions for my washer say you can fill the drum completely full, as long as you don't "pack" it. Top-loaders need extra room to work, so even the larger tubs need some overhead.

[Nava]

I do hope they clean as well, given that front-loaders are the most popular choice in a lot of Europe...

Moving to the US, one of the tricky parts was figuring out how to dose the soap etc etc in a top-loaders.

The mold thing can happen in any machine that gets wet; you do leave the top-loader open after use, don't you? So do the same with your front-loader!

[Tastes of Chocolate]

Another money saving idea.
If you aren't going to stack them, don't buy the driers that go with a front-loading washer.
We recently bought a new washer and drier at a scratch-n-dent store.
We found the washer we wanted and were looking at the driers. The salesperson mentioned that the drier that matched the front-load washer was about $150 more then the same drier that goes with a top-load washer. The only only difference is the placement of the controls. Frontloader gets controls on the front, toploader gets the controls on the top. But because frontloader washers are more expensive, manufacturers have priced the driers to match.

[islandmom]

I'm used to using a top-loading washing machine, but yesterday I did my laundry at my brother's house, where he recently got a new front-loading washer. I watched it work, and it seems to me that it can't possibly clean as well as a top-loader because the clothes are never fully immersed in the water.

It went like this: the clothes spun around while a meager amount of water spurted on them in periodic bursts. The clothes became damp, but never appeared to be fully soaked and were never fully immersed in water.

In a top-loader, the clothes are fully submerged in water and agitated briskly, which I would think would clean a lot more deeply.

So what's the straight dope on front-loaders?? Can they clean as well as top-loaders without fully submerging the clothes?

I've recently purchased a front loading set and have had the same question, although, I can attest to my laundry smelling and appearing cleaner since using the front loading machine.

[islandmom]

I think the point is that effective cleaning isn't really about the amount of water, it's about the amount of agitation. Front loaders agitate much more efficiently, top loaders compensate for less agitation with more water. You just need to have enough water to dissolve anything, once you get to that critical point adding more water doesn't have any benefit chemically.

I've recently purchased a set of front loading machines, and I agree that the longer wash cycle is annoying! Of course, I have no choice but to live with that now. In defense of the frontloader, my clothes definitely smell and look cleaner since using it, and my water and electric bill (?shorter drying time?) have decreased dramatically.

[islandmom]

I've been using front load washers for about 14 years now. I've installed them in the last 4 houses/condos I've owned. I find that my cloths are at least as clean as the top loader. In addition the front loaders seem to do a better job of rinsing out the soap at the end of the run. Have you ever pulled a load of towels out of the washer and heard the soap still crinkling in the towels? I don't get that any more.

The only downsides I've found to front loaders are: You can't add that last sock, once you've started the load. If the washer isn't on the lowest level, you can get rattling when they start spinning. They are more expensive, but the difference is getting smaller.

My Whirlpool Duet frontloader allows me to pause it to add clothes, as long as it is near the beginnng of the cycle when the "add a garment" light is illuminated. Not sure of the time frame that I have to add something, but I frequently hit the pause button at the beginning of the cycle to add that "last sock". Not sure if other models have this feature.

[islandmom]

The Whirlpool Duet I have (which seems like a popular model, based on this thread) has a "Clean Washer" cycle on the dial. About once a month, when you're not using the washer for anything else, you run that cycle with about 2/3 of a cup of bleach in the dispenser, with no other detergents or clothes in the machine. The machine runs a special cycle with hot water and bleach to clean out the drum thoroughly. They say that'll keep any nasties from invading. And of course leaving the door open to allow the innards to dry between laundry sessions is a big help, as well.

As for the fabric softener, I've never heard of a problem with it, and there's a special compartment in the detergent dispenser drawer just for liquid fabric softener (there are three separate compartments, for detergent, bleach, and softener), so it seems odd that they'd advise against it while providing a convenient means to use it. One thing that people apparently have to adjust to is that front loaders are very efficient, and therefore they use less of everything. If you use as much detergent, bleach, and softener as you used to use in your top-loading machine, you'll be using too much, and that, I would imagine, could indeed cause a problem.

As far as the speed issue goes, I think that the ability to wash larger loads makes up for the slower wash cycles. The instructions for my washer say you can fill the drum completely full, as long as you don't "pack" it. Top-loaders need extra room to work, so even the larger tubs need some overhead.

I have the bad odor problem with my front loading machine. I find I need to use the Whirlpool Duet "Clean Washer" feature twice a month, at least. The stores sell a special cleaner (Affresh or Tide are two brands I've seen) that seems to work better than the bleach, I've found. Of course, the special cleaners are another expense. I always leave my washer door open when not in use; wide open until it's dry, then just ajar a couple of inches after that. I use liquid fabric softener, per the instructions on the machine. I might try using less as suggested to avoid the odor build up, but I dont really like the idea of using less softener because I like the way it makes the clothes smell. The long length of the wash cycle and the odor issues are the two things I do not like about the front loaders. In their defense, however, my clothes are cleaner, I can wash very large loads, and my water and electric bills are significantly reduced.

[islandmom]

Living here three years ago were me, my husband (who makes big messes), our three boys, my MIL and a foster child. The youngest was of an age where bed wetting was an issue.

One year's worth of water with just me husband and three boys last year was about $1,150.

We are a family of 6 who average 6 showers and 2 loads of laundry/day, have a dishwasher run twice daily, a swimming pool which needs partial filling in the spring, I water outdoor flowers in the summer months, and we occasionally(couple times a month) run the sprinkler system in the months of July/Aug. Previously our yearly water bill approached $2000, and have noticed it reduced by about a third since weve had the front loading washer.
Also, perhaps water costs vary depending on the part of the country you reside in?

[boozilu]

I can't use a front-loader due to space constraints -- do the HE top-loaders work as well? Or are they a marketing gimmick?

[gotpasswords]

Which is better at washing braaaiiinnnnnnnss?

I thought most zombies did their laundry at the all-night laundromat, rather than buying their own washer and dryer.

[Mijin]

I think the image some have of a front loader just spraying the clothes with water or using "just a couple of cups" is misleading.

If, for whatever reason, you ever need to interrupt a wash cycle, you'll find the clothes are dripping wet; as if they were completely immersed.
Because they were, just not all of the time.

[Broomstick]

I'm used to using a top-loading washing machine, but yesterday I did my laundry at my brother's house, where he recently got a new front-loading washer. I watched it work, and it seems to me that it can't possibly clean as well as a top-loader because the clothes are never fully immersed in the water.

It went like this: the clothes spun around while a meager amount of water spurted on them in periodic bursts. The clothes became damp, but never appeared to be fully soaked and were never fully immersed in water.
I have been using front-loaders for years, and on two occasions had to have my clothes "rescued" mid-cycle from a malfunctioning washer. They're wetter than you think they are. The spin cycles really do remove a lot of the water.

So what's the straight dope on front-loaders?? Can they clean as well as top-loaders without fully submerging the clothes?
My perception is that front-loaders actually clean better, and are less likely to damage my dedicates.

[Patty O'Furniture]

Although I am still a bit skeptical... I want my clothes to be fully submerged and immersed in water! :dubious:

I assume you never take showers, always baths?

[No umlaut for U]

I would never go back to a top loader. I couldn't believe how clean the first load of towels I did in the front loader was, and how grey the expelled water was. (To be fair, the top loader had had a declining spin cycle.) To use up the stock of detergent we had (not recommended) I used 5 ml/per load. I still have nearly a full bottle!
It doesn't seem like my colors run the way they used to, and I can actually do my lingerie in the machine rather than by hand. I think the longer cycle inconvenience is more than overcome by the slightly larger capacity. I just had to plan a little better.

[Louize]

NO - Front Loaders DO NOT clean well or work well. DO NOT BUY ONE! Its a fad and will fizzle out! We have had a pair for 3 years.http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/smilies/smack.gifWe too bought into the "Green" explanation and are always ready to save a buck on utilities. Of course Consumer reports would be in favor- the Green explanation is a convincing one! And enthusiastic NEW owners REALLY BELIEVE the front loader cleans better, they have to - they just spent big bucks on such products! I too was in denial for a while! Are new owners going to report to friends that they made a BIG mistake, rarely, because pride is a powerful thing. Think about it. Common sense tells us, more water means more clean! Soaking clothing, towels, sheets etc deeply immersed in hot water is condusive to the best cleaning. When consumers are considering buying a front loader, most everyone's first thought is- HOW can a front loader with a small amount of water clean as well compared to a top loader? Unbelievable right?http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/smilies/dubious.gif Well your first thoughts are correct, duh!http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/smilies/smack.gif Do you really think most store owners or Salesmen in a store are going to tell you what they "might" know as the truth? No, the store owner has to move his inventory and the salesman has to make a commission!

1) Front loader washers do not spin well. Think about it - spinning of a top loader centered ON TOP of gravity's pull as compared to the spinning of a front loader. The front loader is constantly working against gravity. The whole drum is literally hanging from its mounts while it spins in opposition to gravity - which we have learned a) accounts for the constant re-occuring imbalance during large loads like towels or jeans. b) Clothes still being heavy and wet at the end of the cycle rather than damp as they should be.

2) They use too little water for effective cleaning. The clothes often still smell dirty and so we literally must wash a lot of loads twice! Its the only way to compensate! So I do it!

3) They do not drain well, again its the fact that the drum is hanging instead of centered on top of gravity. This factor causes leaves sitting water at the bottom of the drum which stagnates and smells, molds etc, after use and we have to always leave the front loader washer's door open so this un drained water can dry up. This causes the wide open washer door to stick out in the pathway to the garage- always in the way of people traffic!

The whole green thing sounds good in theory! Saving on water and power sounds good too. But front loader washers are just not for home use. The BIG front loading washers in laundry mats and hospitals and hotels are "industrial" for sanitation purposes using heavy chemicals and I doubt they use less water.

Also manufactures of washers/dryers need to revitalize their business and create "new improved products" with the popular sell tactic label of "high-tech" which is popular for lots of NEW products today. Most everyone wants to sport "the new improved high tech versions of everything", again a pride thing. Unfortunately many of us fall into these traps which manufactures and advertisers devise for we the trusting consumers to fall in and they smile all the way to the bank!

Somethings simply cannot be improved upon since our ancestors - like the spoon AND needless to say, using of lots of water to effectively clean our clothing and textile products adequately! [/B]As in the long standing use of top loading washing machines! I am looking forward to my next new washer- a good reliable deep top loading washer with lots of settings!THE SMART BUY - A TOP LOADING WASHER!

[Candyman74]

NO - Front Loaders DO NOT clean well or work well. DO NOT BUY ONE! Its a fad and will fizzle out! We have had a pair for 3 years.http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/smilies/smack.gifWe too bought into the "Green" explanation and are always ready to save a buck on utilities. Of course Consumer reports would be in favor- the Green explanation is a convincing one! And enthusiastic NEW owners REALLY BELIEVE the front loader cleans better, they have to - they just spent big bucks on such products! I too was in denial for a while! Are new owners going to report to friends that they made a BIG mistake, rarely, because pride is a powerful thing. Think about it. Common sense tells us, more water means more clean! Soaking clothing, towels, sheets etc deeply immersed in hot water is condusive to the best cleaning. When consumers are considering buying a front loader, most everyone's first thought is- HOW can a front loader with a small amount of water clean as well compared to a top loader? Unbelievable right?http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/smilies/dubious.gif Well your first thoughts are correct, duh!http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/images/smilies/smack.gif Do you really think most store owners or Salesmen in a store are going to tell you what they "might" know as the truth? No, the store owner has to move his inventory and the salesman has to make a commission!

1) Front loader washers do not spin well. Think about it - spinning of a top loader centered ON TOP of gravity's pull as compared to the spinning of a front loader. The front loader is constantly working against gravity. The whole drum is literally hanging from its mounts while it spins in opposition to gravity - which we have learned a) accounts for the constant re-occuring imbalance during large loads like towels or jeans. b) Clothes still being heavy and wet at the end of the cycle rather than damp as they should be.

2) They use too little water for effective cleaning. The clothes often still smell dirty and so we literally must wash a lot of loads twice! Its the only way to compensate! So I do it!

3) They do not drain well, again its the fact that the drum is hanging instead of centered on top of gravity. This factor causes leaves sitting water at the bottom of the drum which stagnates and smells, molds etc, after use and we have to always leave the front loader washer's door open so this un drained water can dry up. This causes the wide open washer door to stick out in the pathway to the garage- always in the way of people traffic!

The whole green thing sounds good in theory! Saving on water and power sounds good too. But front loader washers are just not for home use. The BIG front loading washers in laundry mats and hospitals and hotels are "industrial" for sanitation purposes using heavy chemicals and I doubt they use less water.

Also manufactures of washers/dryers need to revitalize their business and create "new improved products" with the popular sell tactic label of "high-tech" which is popular for lots of NEW products today. Most everyone wants to sport "the new improved high tech versions of everything", again a pride thing. Unfortunately many of us fall into these traps which manufactures and advertisers devise for we the trusting consumers to fall in and they smile all the way to the bank!

Somethings simply cannot be improved upon since our ancestors - like the spoon AND needless to say, using of lots of water to effectively clean our clothing and textile products adequately! [/B]As in the long standing use of top loading washing machines! I am looking forward to my next new washer- a good reliable deep top loading washer with lots of settings!THE SMART BUY - A TOP LOADING WASHER!

A fad? I don't think I've ever used a top loader. I certainly don't know of anyone with them. Washing machines have been front loaders all my life.

I don't think it's a "fad".

Also, I and everyone I know don't walk round in dirty smelly clothes.

I'd suggest dialling the hyperbole and CAPS back a bit. Clearly both work just fine. It's not that bug a deal; calm down.

[aceplace57]

The big capacity washers at Laundromats have always been front loaders (going back to the late 70's in my experience). I still go twice a year to wash my blankets and bedspreads.

Those huge capacity washers seem to do a great job on my blankets.

[naita]

Every washing machine sold in Norway for the last couple of decades is a front-loader, and no, we're not all walking around in dirty clothes or washing our clothes twice. Even my ancient washing machine, bound to be more than 40 years old, has a drum with a horizontal axis even though it loads from the top.

[Louize]

A fad? I don't think I've ever used a top loader. I certainly don't know of anyone with them. Washing machines have been front loaders all my life.

I don't think it's a "fad".

Also, I and everyone I know don't walk round in dirty smelly clothes.

I'd suggest dialling the hyperbole and CAPS back a bit. Clearly both work just fine. It's not that bug a deal; calm down.
If you dont know anyone owning them or using them or have never used them yourself HOW do you know enough to be objective? Yes they are a FAD for home washers recently! People asked a litigimate question and have gotton a lit answer because I care about others who might buy these products for the home. To be fore-warned is to be fore-armed! Consumers looking for input before purchasing are wise.

[Candyman74]

If you dont know anyone owning them or using them or have never used them yourself HOW do you know enough to be objective? Yes they are a FAD for home washers recently! People asked a litigimate question and have gotton a lit answer because I care about others who might buy these products for the home. To be fore-warned is to be fore-armed! Consumers looking for input before purchasing are wise.

I know I don't stink. I know that CAPS and over-excitement is not appropriate. And if it's a "FAD!!1!one" then it's a 30 year "FAD!!!!one!!11" which hardly qualifies as "recently" in my eyes.

It's just a washing machine. Calm down. Did a washing machine kick your puppy or something?

[aceplace57]

I plan to purchase a new top loader in the next year or so. I need to soak heavily soiled clothes in water with bleach. That's the only way to remove sweat stains from my t-shirts and underwear after working or hiking outdoors.

How do people wash diapers in a front loader? They have to be soaked in bleach to get the piss & poop stains out. We always soaked our kids diapers a full half hour before turning the cycle back on.

AFAIK you can't soak clothes in a front loader.

[TriPolar]

One big advantage of a front loader is that you can stack a dryer on top of it and use less floor space.

[kayT]

I am on the third front loader. First one was Kenmore and failed after less than three years; another black mark for Sears. Second one was Samsung and we left it in California for the person who bought our house. This one is also Samsung. I have never had mildew, never had a bad odor, and almost never remember to leave the door open when finished. My clothes are way cleaner than they were in a top loader and they dry in about half the time. I love the Samsung and would never dream of going back to the old tub full of dirty water sloshing around. Furthermore, things last longer as the washer isn't wearing them out with pointless "agitating". The front loader lifts your clothes from the water then drops them back in: much like washing by hand; much gentler. Besides, this machine plays a little tune for me when it's done. How cool is that?

[postcards]

One big advantage of a front loader is that you can stack a dryer on top of it and use less floor space.
You can do that with top-loaders (http://stacked-washerdryer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/General-Electric-Unitized-Spacemaker.jpeg), too.

[Pai325]

NO - Front Loaders DO NOT clean well or work well. DO NOT BUY ONE! Its a fad and will fizzle out!

You may or may not like them, but they're certainly not a fad. My mother had one when I was growing up, and I'm in my sixties.

[Candyman74]

You may or may not like them, but they're certainly not a fad. My mother had one when I was growing up, and I'm in my sixties.

I'm not that old (approaching 40) but they've been popular all my life. Certainly not a fad. Or, indeed, a "FAD!!!!!1".

[Eliahna]

I hate my front loader but I've been forced to begrudgingly admit it cleans better. I pulled my daughter's baby clothes out to give away and found many, many stains on them - even on the smallest items from the days when she was exclusively breastfed and therefore not spilling formula or food on herself. All were washed in my old top loader. My son's baby clothes have no stains whatsoever. Front loader.

I hate the increased washing time (a ludicrous 2.5 hours on the "quick cotton" setting), I hate being unable to add that one forgotten sock to the load, I hate when it unbalances or something and I have to wait 2 minutes for the door to unlock so I can rearrange the load (washing blankets or similar is a frustrating experience, especially when it repeatedly unbalances, @#$!%&), I hate that it frequently flicks baby socks into the lint catcher so they come out sodden and linty, I hate that everything comes out so creased that just putting things though the dryer isn't enough to "iron" them and I have to use the actual iron (like a common washerwoman!). If I wasn't forced to have a front loader by the layout of the laundry, I'd never have stopped using my faithful old top loader... but bah, crap, it's true. It does wash better.

[kayT]

I don't know what brand you have, Eliahna, but my Samsung does the quick wash in 43 minutes and that's with an extra rinse. I have not noticed the creasing but if it's that bad try turning the spin speed from high to medium. My machine doesn't "lock" the door once you stop the machine. It also lets you add things in for the first few minutes and also during spinning, by just putting the cycle on pause. And Samsung has a self balancing system; it slows the spin and sprays in some water to rebalance itself. Granted, this does make the load take longer than the 43 minutes but I never have to get in there and rebalance a load.

ETA sorry if I sound like a Samsung commercial!

[Eliahna]

I don't know what brand you have, Eliahna, but my Samsung does the quick wash in 43 minutes and that's with an extra rinse. I have not noticed the creasing but if it's that bad try turning the spin speed from high to medium. My machine doesn't "lock" the door once you stop the machine. It also lets you add things in for the first few minutes and also during spinning, by just putting the cycle on pause. And Samsung has a self balancing system; it slows the spin and sprays in some water to rebalance itself. Granted, this does make the load take longer than the 43 minutes but I never have to get in there and rebalance a load.

ETA sorry if I sound like a Samsung commercial!

Mine's an LG. The quick wash (not quick cotton) for lightly soiled clothing is done in 30 minutes, or 36 if you want to spin enough water out so it won't take 5 hours to go through the dryer, but that still makes me grumble because the heavy duty cycle on the top loader takes about 45 minutes. I could spin at a lower RPM but the increased drying time probably takes longer than ironing, and definitely consumes more power.

My SO is from the UK and he claims front loaders (and everything else for that matter, but that's another story) are of better quality over there. He was shocked by how crappy a reasonably expensive front loader was over here compared to those he'd had in the UK.

Most recently we had a fault with our machine - fixed, rapidly and in our own home under warranty by LG's local service people, no real complaints there - but while we were trying to figure out the source and cause of the noise, we had to wait three or four times for that blessed door to unlock. Frustrating.

[Terry Kennedy]

NO - Front Loaders DO NOT clean well or work well. DO NOT BUY ONE! Its a fad and will fizzle out! We have had a pair for 3 years.
I switched to a Samsung front loader (and matching dryer) well over 4 years ago. The only issue was that the light bulb in the dryer burned out once, and was easily replaced.

I do think that the washer takes longer than my old top loader, but it mostly makes up for that in added capacity.

It also does a much better job on things like pillows and comforters - in the top loader, they would just float on top of the water and not get cleaned.

Somethings simply cannot be improved upon since our ancestors
My grandmother refused to use anything except a tub, washboard and stick for all of her days. Me, I like the modern conveniences.

There are certainly awful front loaders out there. Just as there are awful top loaders. It is probably easier to make a bad front loader than a bad top loader because they're more complex. But that's no reason to dismiss the technology out of hand.

[Patty O'Furniture]

<snipped>

There is a lot of misinformation in your post and I don't really feel like picking through all of it. Suffice it to say that professional/industrial machines are almost always front-loaders - especially the high capacity ones. That should tell you right there that the design is sound.

]The whole drum is literally hanging from its mounts while it spins in opposition to gravity

No it's not. It rides on wheels or rollers while the motor provides the turning force.

The clothes often still smell dirty and so we literally must wash a lot of loads twice!

You're probably packing it too full.

I'd like to know what specific brand and model you're complaining about.

[Mangetout]

Sounds to me like Louize just bought a dud, or is otherwise a statistical outlier, in terms of user experience.

All* washing machines in the UK are automatic front-loaders, and as with any other category of electrical goods, there are really good ones, and not-so-good ones. Louize's criticisms don't make sense in this context (or in some cases, in general - I mean, just because something is a horizontal drum doesn't make it impossible to drain efficiently)

*nearly all. The only new machines I've ever seen that aren't front-loaders, in the last 20 years, are weird compact/student-type things that aren't really ordinary top-loaders either.

[jabiru]

They're automatic washing machines - you can leave them unattended and do something else while they wash the laundry - does the cycle time matter all that much?

It matters if you have several loads to wash. I had a front loader when my boys (now nearing 30) were small and I couldn't wait to get rid of it. Apart from the very long cycle, I found that the machine didn't hold nearly enough, so I ended up doing even more loads. And then there's the not-being-able-to-add-another-item problem - perennial when you have small children.

[jabiru]

I hate that everything comes out so creased that just putting things though the dryer isn't enough to "iron" them and I have to use the actual iron (like a common washerwoman!). If I wasn't forced to have a front loader by the layout of the laundry, I'd never have stopped using my faithful old top loader... but bah, crap, it's true. It does wash better.

I was considering going back to a front loader, despite my previous experience because I'd heard there'd been improvements since I last had one (in the '80s). Your post has convinced me otherwise.

[Louize]

That's a good point to make about which brands are going to work the best. The 3 yr old GE front loader Duet I have simply does not work well. It seems that newer front loader users find a happy medium and learn HOW to use their machines to get the results they want, as I had to. It has to do with how heavy or soiled a load is in accordance with which setting to choose. And as several already pointed out, you cannot soak or immerse clothing etc in the front loaders which I miss very much for reasons I already mentioned in my previous post. Incidentally, the instructions that came with my front loader DID say to leave the door open to dry out collecting water which may become sour or stagnate and also to do a regular 'washer cleaning' to kill what builds up from this leftover standing water after a wash. Water just does not drain out well enough in a front loader. For the quibblers, I think there is a misunderstanding about what a FAD can be. Of course front loaders have been around for ages but the newest new HE front loaders, HE detergent and all etc has been hyped the last 4-5-6 years. This Going Green hype or passing fancy (fad) will pass. I guess some haven't noticed or actually shopped for a new washer or dryer for a while. As for the Candyman's comments, well, they speak for themselves. I bet he kicks little puppies for fun, just by the way he is kicking around others legitimate comments on this message board. Anyway, since others have asked, I simply want to inform others of my experience with my newer GE Duet front loader washer as I too have heard complaints and thought I should look it up my self online and so here I am and thought it would be nice to also help others if possible to answer their questions and sort out their reasons for considering new front loaders. My machine is not a 'dud' it just doesn't do as good a job as a good top loader. I can only speak for the brand I purchased, however I would never again buy a front loader of any brand knowing what I know now firsthand and after also hearing from others who have started using front loaders in general. Only a strong large capacity top loader has ALL the water levels and cycle settings one could need from delicates to heavy work clothes. Live and learn! To each his own - choice!

[psychonaut]

I can only speak for the brand I purchasedThen you should stop making unqualified statements that front-loading washers are inferior to top-loading washers.

[psychonaut]

Although I am still a bit skeptical... I want my clothes to be fully submerged and immersed in water! :dubious:Get over it. There is now a washing machine which uses only one cup of water (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/greenerliving/5597786/Washing-machine-that-uses-one-cup-of-water.html) for the entire cycle.

[Dereknocue67]

I've been using a front loader for about 12 years and have found that the front end purchase price of the machine is offset by the savings recovered by reduction in detergent and water use along with dryer run time.

You're saving $ by using less water and less detergent. Since the drum spins about about 1,000 rpm, the clothes contain less water at the end cycle meaning less drying time and electric/gas usage. Run your own calculations based on your detergent and utility costs but you should realize a savings.

On cleaning ability, the machine performs equally to a top loader.

[Hermitian]

What happens if you just need a bunch of water to really dilute the stuff you are trying to get rid of?

Suppose I just ended up with a ton of mud all over my clothes. Or what If I am washing cloth diapers and there is a lot of urine and some fecal matter? Just getting the clothes "damp" isn't going to cut it.

Does anyone know how front loaders deal with this?

Is there an immerse and dilute option?

[psychonaut]

What happens if you just need a bunch of water to really dilute the stuff you are trying to get rid of?

Suppose I just ended up with a ton of mud all over my clothes. Or what If I am washing cloth diapers and there is a lot of urine and some fecal matter? Just getting the clothes "damp" isn't going to cut it. As has already been explained repeatedly in this thread, it is not the case that front-loading washers merely get the clothes "damp".
Does anyone know how front loaders deal with this?They deal with them just fine. I have washed plenty of dirt- and fæces-encrusted fabrics in various front-loading washing machines, and they clean them just fine.

[WhyNot]

I think there's an assumption in wet climates that water is the only way to clean things. It's not. Ask someone who lives in the desert how to wash clothes (or pans, or hands) and you're going to get lots of advice, little of which involves water, or very much water.

Water is nice because it's, as our high school chemistry teachers taught us, "the universal solvent". It works to get out most common gunk, most of the time. Where most of us live, it's fairly cheap and plentiful and we haven't needed to find other ways to clean. But agitation works, brushing mud off words, scouring with sand works, leaving things out in the sun to lighten stains and odors works. It's just not what we're used to, because we're spoiled with plentiful water for washing.

[Pixel_Dent]

Even top loaders these days are moving toward high efficiency models that don't have an agitator and use much less water. The days of clothes floating around in a pool of dirty water are likely numbered.

[gotpasswords]

Which is better at washing braaaiiinnnnnnnss?

I thought most zombies did their laundry at the all-night laundromat, rather than buying their own washer and dryer.
Maybe double-zombies need a double shot of bleach? :confused:

[Deegeea]

I had a top loader for nine years (before that, just used laundromats) and now I've had a front loader for six years. (So it's 15 years or so since I went to a laundromat =D )

They wash equally well. I still have the same dryer. It's been deteriorating the entire time, and now barely heats up, but it's still enough to dry clothes from the front loader so I don't bother to replace it.

The front loader is good because the clothes are not as wet, and also because it uses less soap. We do need to put borax into every load - both to eliminate the pet odors and to help it wash better with so little soap - but not any more borax than we did before just for the odor reduction. In the top loader we could substitute ammonia for the borax, which was a bit cheaper and reduced odors almost as well, but ammonia does not work in the front loader.

The front loader cost a little bit more but probably about the same given inflation in the interim (500$ for the top loader 15 years ago and 650$ for the front loader six years ago). They were both discounted some amount or other and reviewed for being decent quality in Consumer reports, but I don't even remember the brand names.

[Candyman74]

As for the Candyman's comments, well, they speak for themselves. I bet he kicks little puppies for fun, just by the way he is kicking around others legitimate comments on this message board.

Wow.

[Colibri]

As for the Candyman's comments, well, they speak for themselves. I bet he kicks little puppies for fun, just by the way he is kicking around others legitimate comments on this message board.

Moderator Note

Louize, insults are not permitted in General Questions or most other forums on this board. Since you are new here, I am making this a note instead of a formal warning. However, don't do this again.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

PS. You might consider hitting the Enter key every once in awhile to break up your paragraphs. It would make them easier to read.

[sachertorte]

What happens if you just need a bunch of water to really dilute the stuff you are trying to get rid of?

Suppose I just ended up with a ton of mud all over my clothes. Or what If I am washing cloth diapers and there is a lot of urine and some fecal matter? Just getting the clothes "damp" isn't going to cut it.

Does anyone know how front loaders deal with this?

Is there an immerse and dilute option?

Mine has a SOAK option.
I also have a RINSE option.

I guess if I had something especially muddy or gross, I would put it in and use the SOAK option. Then RINSE it, then do a normal wash.

Or I'd just wash it twice.

[suranyi]

Even top loaders these days are moving toward high efficiency models that don't have an agitator and use much less water. The days of clothes floating around in a pool of dirty water are likely numbered.

That's what I was going to say (and yes, I know this thread is a Zombie). We just bought a new washing machine a few months ago. It's a top-loader, but it has no agitator. It can hold far more than older top-loaders while using much less water.

(We were thinking of getting a front-loader but upon measuring we discovered that there wouldn't be room to open the door.)

[Mangetout]

It sounds like maybe the prevalence of (and in some cases, preference for) top-loading machines in America is leaving room for apathy in the supplier market and a general lack of drive towards excellenceIt has to do with how heavy or soiled a load is in accordance with which setting to choose. And as several already pointed out, you cannot soak or immerse clothing etc in the front loaders which I miss very much for reasons I already mentioned in my previous post. Mine has a prewash/presoak function, with a separate compartment in the detergent drawer for prewash solution. Every machine I've seen in the UK for the last 20 years had this - it's just a missing feature on your machine, I'd say.

Incidentally, the instructions that came with my front loader DID say to leave the door open to dry out collecting water which may become sour or stagnate and also to do a regular 'washer cleaning' to kill what builds up from this leftover standing water after a wash.I remember hearing about problems with water trapped in the folds of the door seal on older machines, and this causing it to perish if left standing, but that doesn't seem a problem any more.

Water just does not drain out well enough in a front loader. No reason why it shouldn't - the drum has to be symmetrical along the axis of spin, or it would be a very bad thing, but the vessel in which the drum spins can be any shape, and can include a funnel-shaped or sloped bottom to facilitate (pumped) drainage. If yours doesn't drain, it's just bad product design, not a fundamental failing of the concept of front loaders.

This Going Green hype or passing fancy (fad) will pass.It's never been a question of going green, for me. I did choose an energy/water-efficient model last time I had to replace the washing machine, but that was a choice between different kinds of front loaders - that's all there is on the market here.

My machine is not a 'dud' it just doesn't do as good a job as a good top loader. I can only speak for the brand I purchased, however I would never again buy a front loader of any brand knowing what I know now firsthand and after also hearing from others who have started using front loaders in general. Only a strong large capacity top loader has ALL the water levels and cycle settings one could need from delicates to heavy work clothes.
None of the issues you've described is a fundamental flaw of front loaders. Your machine (and maybe most machines in your market area, for all I know) must just be poorly designed - because none of the issues you describe are common complaints here, ever.

[Mangetout]

It matters if you have several loads to wash. I had a front loader when my boys (now nearing 30) were small and I couldn't wait to get rid of it.Machine capacities vary quite widely - the bigger ones cost more. Given that there's usually a need to separate colours and whites, and that the machines run unattended, it just isn't a problem to do multiple washes (unless you have a shortage of spare clothes, I guess)

And then there's the not-being-able-to-add-another-item problem - perennial when you have small children.That's another name for the not-wanting-water-all-over-the-floor problem. You can't open the door when the machine is mid-cycle, for the same sorts of reasons you can't get off a train between stations. I've never found it a problem, really - anything that gets dirty just after the start of the current wash just has to wait for the next one.

[Omar Little]

I bought a front loading Kenmore HE3 washer and dryer about 10 years ago, and it's still working. Never have had to have it serviced. Probably need to upgrade soon, but they clean the clothes great haven't had a single problem. Hardly a fad.

[flodnak]

Sounds to me like Louize just bought a dud, or is otherwise a statistical outlier, in terms of user experience.Since she's only commented on this thread, and her opinions have been so extremely strong, I'm half-expecting her to come back and shill for her "favorite" top-loader brand. But maybe I am just getting cynical.... (Colored diamonds, anyone?)

As for myself, I've washed the same clothes in my front-loader here in Troll Country, and my mother's top-loader in Pennsylvania, and while I'm grateful to have the chance to do laundry for free while we're in the States, there's no doubt in my mind that the clothes get cleaner and are rinsed more thoroughly in the front-loader. Of course, it also takes four times as long, but one learns to plan ahead....

[enipla]

I think the image some have of a front loader just spraying the clothes with water or using "just a couple of cups" is misleading.

If, for whatever reason, you ever need to interrupt a wash cycle, you'll find the clothes are dripping wet; as if they were completely immersed.
Because they were, just not all of the time.I agree with this. We have a front loader and the clothes get completely soaked. Not just 'damp'

[Mangetout]

I agree with this. We have a front loader and the clothes get completely soaked. Not just 'damp'

Quite - dunno where people were getting this 'damp' notion from. In every front loader I've seen, the thing fills up to something like 1/3 or halfway full of water/detergent, then the drum does its thing - the clothes are being lifted/sloshed in and out of the wash water repeatedly - so water is alternately soaking into/draining out of the fabric, and carrying dirt out with it.

[Mangetout]

Of course, it also takes four times as long, but one learns to plan ahead....

This is interesting. What's a typical wash-spin cycle time for a standard wash on American front loaders? Mine takes about 45 minutes, I think - it has a 'time remaining' countdown, which is reasonably accurate - changes a bit as it goes, subject to fill times (varies subject to water pressure) and water heating times (varies subject to temperature of mains water)

[Great Antibob]

How do people wash diapers in a front loader? They have to be soaked in bleach to get the piss & poop stains out. We always soaked our kids diapers a full half hour before turning the cycle back on.

AFAIK you can't soak clothes in a front loader.

You don't need to cover your clothes in water to soak them, and bleach still works in a front loader (though I'm thinking you might be using a bit much, even so).

I've got friends who regularly clean diapers in their front loader. It just involves using the right settings and also using bleach.

My folks ran a dry cleaning business, and it was never an issue with their industrial sized washers (always front loaders). But you can't wash that stuff like normal clothes, either. Temperature settings and pre-washing (i.e. getting most of the "solids" off first and spot treating the worst stains) are always going to be important.

The truth is, most people know just enough about how to use their washing machines to get reasonably clean clothes. But most people still don't actually use them properly.

The worst sin seems to be too much detergent. I know the temptation is "more soap = cleaner clothes" but after a certain amount, you're actually making things worse. Top loaders are great for demonstrations of this. Try putting your clothes in a wash cycle without any detergent. Most people will start to see suds forming from all the detergent residue from previous washes. In the worst cases, my folks sometimes got clothes that hardly needed any detergent from all the residue and had to go through 2 cycles - one to remove the residue and one for the actual wash.

This is interesting. What's a typical wash-spin cycle time for a standard wash on American front loaders?

The "four times as long" was a bit of an exaggeration, I'm guessing. A top loader might take 20-30 minutes, while a front loader might take around 45 (longer depending on the setting and load, of course). That's compensated a bit by the shorter drying time.

Many complaints about front loaders end up being "it's different than what I'm used to, therefore it's bad".

[flodnak]

This is interesting. What's a typical wash-spin cycle time for a standard wash on American front loaders? Mine takes about 45 minutes, I think - it has a 'time remaining' countdown, which is reasonably accurate - changes a bit as it goes, subject to fill times (varies subject to water pressure) and water heating times (varies subject to temperature of mains water)The shortest cycle on my mother's top-loader, a fairly standard American washer, is just a hair shy of 30 minutes.

The typical cycle on a front-loader for the Norwegian market, which takes in cold water only and heats it to the desired temperature, is about two hours, depending on the temperature you select. Mine does have shorter cycles, but I don't really trust them for normal laundry. (Well, the cycles for woolens and delicates are shorter, and I do use those.)

Still, in two hours, my washer is using less electricity and water than my mother's machine does for a half-hour cycle. I don't grok.

[suranyi]

It sounds like maybe the prevalence of (and in some cases, preference for) top-loading machines in America is leaving room for apathy in the supplier market and a general lack of drive towards excellence.

That's ridiculous. There's been tremendous innovation in washing machines in recent years, both among front-loaders and top-loaders. I just mentioned that I bought a new high-efficiency top-loader earlier this year. It has no agitator -- it uses a completely different washing mechanism than older top-loaders, so it uses much less water.

[BwanaBob]

Our top loader does a full load in under 20 min. Time is more precious to me than the price of water. I cannot see how barely making something damp can get something clean. Suppose I have a sweat soaked t-shirt. It's already damp. Is your 2 gallons of water from front loader magically going to substitute clean water for my sweat? Or rinse away the salt?

Someone said their front loader fills up 1/3 to 1/2 of the drum; I'd like to know the brand/model because all the one's I've looked at while shopping seem to brag about how little water they use (seeming less than an 1/8 of the drum).

[BwanaBob]

That's ridiculous. There's been tremendous innovation in washing machines in recent years, both among front-loaders and top-loaders. I just mentioned that I bought a new high-efficiency top-loader earlier this year. It has no agitator -- it uses a completely different washing mechanism than older top-loaders, so it uses much less water.

We tried one of those and dumped it in a week. They're just as slow as the front loaders, and also try to get away with using 3 gallons of water in what appears to be a 30 gallon drum. The worst of both worlds. Not drinking the kool-aid.

[Procrustus]

I cannot see how barely making something damp can get something clean. Suppose I have a sweat soaked t-shirt. It's already damp. Is your 2 gallons of water from front loader magically going to substitute clean water for my sweat? Or rinse away the salt?

.

Many have pointed out that clothes in a front loader get soaking wet. I will add my humble voice to that chorus. It's really really true. Wet.

[Candyman74]

Our top loader does a full load in under 20 min. Time is more precious to me than the price of water. I cannot see how barely making something damp can get something clean. Suppose I have a sweat soaked t-shirt. It's already damp. Is your 2 gallons of water from front loader magically going to substitute clean water for my sweat? Or rinse away the salt?

Someone said their front loader fills up 1/3 to 1/2 of the drum; I'd like to know the brand/model because all the one's I've looked at while shopping seem to brag about how little water they use (seeming less than an 1/8 of the drum).

Yep, the whole of Europe stinks. 400 million reeking people in filthy stained clothes. Me? I smell of sweat, and wee, and poo, and my clothes stand up all by themselves. I gave three people cholera last week just by driving past the on the street. They didn't mind, though, because they were filthy and reeking and already had every disease known to man.

Or, alternatively: obviously they work just fine.

[suranyi]

We tried one of those and dumped it in a week. They're just as slow as the front loaders, and also try to get away with using 3 gallons of water in what appears to be a 30 gallon drum. The worst of both worlds. Not drinking the kool-aid.

It is slow, I grant you that, but it does work. It's slow because there is a process by which it gets every part of the clothes wet, despite how little water there is in the tub. Essentially within the wash cycle there are multiple agitation cycles separated by mixing cycles, in which the tub is spun at a low speed to mix the clothes around.

[Mangetout]

Our top loader does a full load in under 20 min. Time is more precious to me than the price of water. I cannot see how barely making something damp can get something clean. Suppose I have a sweat soaked t-shirt. It's already damp. Is your 2 gallons of water from front loader magically going to substitute clean water for my sweat? Or rinse away the salt?

Someone said their front loader fills up 1/3 to 1/2 of the drum; I'd like to know the brand/model because all the one's I've looked at while shopping seem to brag about how little water they use (seeming less than an 1/8 of the drum).

Actuallyt it *is* less than 1/3 of the drum for modern machines, but it's enough for the clothes to slosh and splash around in.
This 'barely damp' nonsense is just wilful ignorance that has already been corrected several times in this thread. If the clothes were just getting 'barely damp', they wouldn't be washed. *Everyone* would be wearing dirty clothes. They're not.

[Fake Tales of San Francisco]

Suppose I have a sweat soaked t-shirt. It's already damp. Is your 2 gallons of water from front loader magically going to substitute clean water for my sweat? Or rinse away the salt?

Well no, but I don't think your top loader substitutes water for sweat either. It's not like water actively pushes the sweat out of the clothes. But if it did, where would it go? Does that mean your clothes swim around in sweaty water for 20 minutes? How does that make it clean?

Clearly it's rather easy to make nonsense criticisms for processes that clearly work.

The one thing that bothered me about having to use a toploader when I lived out of Europe for a while was how long it took to dry the clothes. Talk about a job and a half.

[Eliahna]

I agree with this. We have a front loader and the clothes get completely soaked. Not just 'damp'

Agree. Not wetting the clothes is not one of the crimes my front loader commits. Dragging saturated sheets out the other week when it broke down mid cycle was no different to dragging saturated sheets out of my top loader in a similar situation. While it is washing, everything is as thoroughly wet as it would be in a top loader.

It does spin them harder so at the end of a wash cycle they come out with less water in them but that's a good thing because of the reduced drying time.

Also, it has a soak option.

[GreenTreeFrog]

Used both front loaders and top loaders (a few different brands) and have found that in some respects, top loaders do wash better... Especially when there is dog hair present. We have always had pets and I find that our front loader has trouble getting rid of it all. Seems to build up in the machine and I have to do an empty wash with hot water & vinegar just to "clean" it out. Not sure if a bit less dog hair is worth the cost of using a top loader though.

[Canadjun]

I'll add to the chorus - if one of the front loaders in the apartment building I live in decides it doesn't want to spin properly, the clothes come out WET, not damp!

[Mangetout]

I'll add to the chorus - if one of the front loaders in the apartment building I live in decides it doesn't want to spin properly, the clothes come out WET, not damp!

Indeed - and that's why they can't be opened mid cycle (apparently perceived as a flaw or shortcoming by some in this thread ). They can't be opened because the water would flood out

[MarcusF]

Indeed - and that's why they can't be opened mid cycle (apparently perceived as a flaw or shortcoming by some in this thread ). They can't be opened because the water would flood outActually no. Don't get me wrong. Being a Brit we have always had front loaders and they work just fine but but the door lock is to prevent you sticking your arm into a moving drum. As Eliahna has found out you can open the door - after a delay - even when there is water in the drum.

[Mangetout]

That's interesting - it does make perfect sense as a safety interlock, but I'm not sure they all do release after a delay - or at least, I've encountered those that remained locked after being stopped mid cycle (haven't tried it lately/on a modern machine though)

[MarcusF]

That's interesting - it does make perfect sense as a safety interlock, but I'm not sure they all do release after a delay - or at least, I've encountered those that remained locked after being stopped mid cycle (haven't tried it lately/on a modern machine though)Um. Come to think of it it may be after turning off the power as well. Not sure how the interlock works...

[suranyi]

Actually no. Don't get me wrong. Being a Brit we have always had front loaders and they work just fine but but the door lock is to prevent you sticking your arm into a moving drum. As Eliahna has found out you can open the door - after a delay - even when there is water in the drum.

My new top loader also has a safety interlock that locks the lid for the whole cycle. Even in the wash cycle it moves very fast during certain points. As I said above, it doesn't have a agitator so it alternates "agitating" cycles with "mixing" cycles during the wash cycle. It moves quite aggresively during the mixing cycle.

ETA: You can disable the interlock by pushing the "pause" button. This stops the machine and unlocks the door.

[Mangetout]

Um. Come to think of it it may be after turning off the power as well. Not sure how the interlock works...

In any case, I think we're agreed that, should you contrive to open one mid-wash, it's wet floor time, therefore, the clothes inside are not just 'damp'.

[AaronX]

Do all front loaders adjust the water level automatically to suit the amount of laundry? My front loader didn't have a size setting, which I thought was quite important.

[Eliahna]

Do all front loaders adjust the water level automatically to suit the amount of laundry? My front loader didn't have a size setting, which I thought was quite important.

Mine does. The first 20 or 30 seconds after I push start, it shows the "weighing" icon as it sizes up the load. Then it starts filling.

[Mangetout]

Do all front loaders adjust the water level automatically to suit the amount of laundry? My front loader didn't have a size setting, which I thought was quite important.

Some have sensors (per post above), some rely on the user indicating the load size via set of buttons, or as part of the washing program selection.

[kambuckta]

One tip I heard (fairly) recently to help alleviate mildew problems in front loaders was to cut down the amount of washing powder to one-eighth of the recommended dose, and supplement this by adding two tablespoons of baking soda.

I wasn't quite game to try the 1/8th bit, but I use a quarter of a scoop now with the baking soda, and it cleans the clothes even better than before.

And whilst I don't really understand how the baking soda works, at the end of the spin cycle the clothes are even drier than with detergent alone: I guess this helps remove the dampness in the machine itself and thus deters mildew issues.

[psychonaut]

Actually no. Don't get me wrong. Being a Brit we have always had front loaders and they work just fine but but the door lock is to prevent you sticking your arm into a moving drum. As Eliahna has found out you can open the door - after a delay - even when there is water in the drum.Yeah, but there's rarely any reason for doing so. Every front-loader I've used has a button for draining the water in case it's been stopped mid-cycle.

[BwanaBob]

Obviously the whole of Europe doesn't have stinky clothes.

My suspicions are rooted in our horrible experience with a low-water top loader. First off, it's largest recommened load was about 1/2 of what I consider a full load. So that's now doubling the number of loads needed. Then there's the abysmal slowness of a full cycle, also 2 - 3x what a standard top loader takes. Now we're talking 4 to 6x the time I need to get all the clothes done. My dryer runs very hot so we rarely have to wait very long for the dryer to finish before we can put in the next load. Also we sometimes use (gasp) a clothes line for towels because we like the feel and smell they get from the sun.

Water is dirt cheap here. Average water bill is $50/month. Average electrical $165/month.

So why would I want to switch to a low-water front loader?

[Great Antibob]

One tip I heard (fairly) recently to help alleviate mildew problems in front loaders was to cut down the amount of washing powder to one-eighth of the recommended dose, and supplement this by adding two tablespoons of baking soda.

Part of the reasoning behind this recommendation is, as I noted above, that people usually use too much washing powder normally. Using a smaller amount later for a cycle will suck some of the residue out. The baking soda will, of course, help with the odor.

Too much detergent can have a deleterious effect on cleaning clothes.

My suspicions are rooted in our horrible experience with a low-water top loader. First off, it's largest recommened load was about 1/2 of what I consider a full load. So that's now doubling the number of loads needed.

Well, odds are actually you're probably also overloading the top loader. As I noted earlier, most people don't use their washers according to the directions anyway.

Overloading your front loader will have the same effect as overloading your top loader - your clothes will get cleaner but you may not get the best results. It's hardly the front loader's fault if you scrupulously follow the directions for it while ignoring optimal use of your top loader. Also, have you checked that the capacities for both were the same? If you're comparing a 3 cubic foot front loader with a 4 cubic foot top loader, that's also a bad comparison.

Other than using too much detergent, another thing to note is that in the US, except for clothes used in physically demanding situations, most people's clothes are already pretty darned clean (even those stinky towels aren't really all that fouled up). So, overloading a washer still does a reasonable job, which I'm 80% sure is the case with your top loader.

So why would I want to switch to a low-water front loader?

To each his own. It still uses less water and electricity. They're still more efficient and effective.

If that's not a sufficient reason, then don't use them. We're not forcing you to.

Just don't spout BS about front loaders, such as the idea they barely get clothes damp. A preference for top loaders is no reason to make stuff up that just aren't true.

[PattiCake]

Weighing in on the things said in this thread.

I just read a very detailed account of how the HE washers and the HE detergents work. If you are not using HE detergent, your HE washer will not clean effectively. Why? Because the HE washer will create more suds than one that fills with water. Too many suds will keep the wash from tumbling properly by cushioning the wash and not allowing it to drop into the water and wet clothes. Also, I've noticed people saying you use less soap. Read the directions on your HE detergent bottle. You still need to fill the cup to the correct line. I use Tide, and the line is the same place as the old non HE bottle cap. This could be a reason why your clothes do not seem to be clean.

Why does the load take longer? A few reasons: 1. it takes time for the washer to determine how much water to add. It adds some, tumbles, measures, adds more, tumbles, measures, etc. until the washer has the exact right amount of water to clean your clothes. 2. an old top loader (non HE) doesn't take long because once the water is dirty, you aren't doing anything to clean the clothes any better in 20 minutes than if you let it go 30 or 40 minutes. Agitating your clothes in dirty water is just simply agitating your clothes in dirty water. Plus, since agitating with a center spindle is hard on your clothes, washing them longer is just simply wearing them out.

So, what is the difference between your clothes agitating in dirty water or tumbled in dirty water with an HE? answer: HE detergents are designed to hold dirt and oils instead of allowing them to get deposited back onto your clothes. Also, the HE washers use multiple rinse cycles. On my old top loader, I used the only cycle that gave me 2 rinse cycles, and there was still soap left in my clothes when it was done.

My personal experiences: Towels - I can now do 2 loads of towels in my washer instead of one. I could force 2 loads in before, but because of the design of the drum, the towels were being forced to the top of the washer, and rubbing against the top edge of the drum. I had a bed spread ruined because of this. It came out torn up. I have far less lint in my dryer now because my clothes aren't getting beat up. Doing 2 loads of towels at the same time decreases my overall time spent doing laundry, despite the actual load being completed in more time.

My husband had complained that the towels coming out of the old washer smelled musty. The whole washer smelled musty, and the rinse water was enough to gag you - it permeated the entire downstairs. Now, no smells, and my washer has a self-clean cycle that doesn't require any additives including bleach. The towels are softer since there is no build up of soap residue, and they smell clean instead of musty.

I have a quick wash cycle that does a load in 30 minutes. I'm not sure about these 20 minute loads people are talking about with their top loaders, since my top loader took 30 minutes minimum. And, it constantly became unbalanced. So far, my new Samsung has not become unbalanced at all.

Now, my old pair was over 25 years old. We bought a matching set of the Samsung steam machines. Not sure how often I'll use the steam wash, but the steam in the dryer is wonderful for freshening up something that doesn't need to be washed.

One more thing before I get off my soapbox - people talk about the water savings, and the electric savings of the shorter dryer cycle, but another consideration is hot water. I have oil heated hot water. Oil is very expensive any more. Having to heat less water means a huge savings in my oil bill. So, water, oil, electric - all will be cheaper.

Technology has certainly improved in the last 25 years. These new washers and dryers are great. It takes longer? That doesn't bother me. I put my laundry in and set the washer. It tells me when it's done, and I put it in the dryer. I typically don't do all my wash in one day anyway. If you do, well, I can see where you might be a bit irked. But really - 4 loads of wash might take the washer a total of an hour or so longer depending on the cycles you choose, but I would always have to wait for the dryer to stop before I could get the next load in anyway. My dryer typically took an hour to dry a load of jeans or towels. Now, If I do multiple loads, I can have the dryer finish the previous load, and have enough time to fold it before the next load is ready for the dryer. I like that better than having to wait for the dryer while the wash sits in the washer.

Oh, and I do love the little song they play instead of that buzzer that makes me jump out of my skin!

Sorry this was so long, but there was a lot to comment on!