Would you sneak into a teenage girl's bedroom at 2AM if it was for The Greater Good?

[Arnold Winkelried]

Background:

One of our neighbours is a single mother with two kids living with her. The two kids are a girl aged six and a boy aged four. I have never spoken to the mother and barely seen her. (For clarity, we will call the mother Susie, the six-year old Jill, and the four-year-old Johnny - names changed to protect the innocent.) Jill and Johnny run around the neighbourhood in the evenings until it's late, with Susie nowhere to be seen. One of our other neighbours further down the street (also a mother with two children - let's call her Cindy) once called the police when Jill and John were still playing outside after dark and Susie was presumably somewhere inside the house. I thought Cindy should have just banged on Susie's door but she wanted to make more of an impression and so called the police - Cindy said she was tired of feeling like she needed to keep an eye on Jill and John. This happened several months ago. BTW I also have two children aged five (almost six) and two and a half.

Last week-end a big U-Haul moving truck was outside Susie's door all Sunday so I assumed that they were moving. Sunday night / Monday morning at 2:00 AM I hear a child crying in the street. (This is a Southern California housing tract where houses are within spitting distance of each other.) I look out our second-story bedroom window and see a car nearby with the inside light on so I figure someone came home late and the child woke up. But 10 minutes later I hear again some child screaming "Mommy! Mommy!" I can't see anything through the window so I go out on the sidewalk to verify. I see Johnny on the sidewalk crying out for his Mommy. Then Jill comes out of the house and says that her mother left at midnight with the moving truck and isn't back yet. At the same time a young couple from the house on the other side come out and we confer. The young couple (new to the neighbourhood - I had never met them yet) said that they thought they had seen an older girl around today. I start questioning Jill who answers a lot of questions with "I don't know" but the short answer is that she doesn't know where to reach her Mommy but her sister is in the house. Her sister is older but Jill doesn't know the sister's age. Is your sister a lot older then you? I don't know. Is she in high school? 6th grade? I don't know. I ask her if she can go get her sister and Jill wanders in and comes out after 30 seconds by herself. We are standing in front of Jill's house, the front door is open, the lights are on so I can see in the hallway. I've never been in Jill's house before. My first reaction is that Susie probably has a teenager staying with the kids and I should just barge in there and wake that lazy young girl up. The neighbours are saying we should call the police. I'm thinking that this is probably going to be a waste of a policeman's time.

Q: What would you have done? Gone inside the house to check or call the police? Pros to calling the police: There is less of a chance that I will be eaten alive by a zombie hiding inside the neigbour's house. Cons: Why should I need to call the police for every little thing that happens in the neighbourhood? I'm sure they have bigger fish to fry.

You can skip the rest since it's not relevant to the question, but here's how it ended.

I go to get my cellphone, confirm again with Jill that she doesn't have a phone number for her mother, and call 911. Eventually a police car shows up while the neighbours, Jill, Johnny and I are standing in front of the house. (I tried to talk to Johnny but he doesn't say a word - he stopped shouting for Mommy when the adults showed up.) The police officer tells Jill to go get her sister and tries to talk to Johnny but Johnny still doesn't say a word. Jill again comes out by herself. The police officer goes in the house (I hear him shouting "Police! Anyone home?") and after a couple of minutes comes out and waits. After another few minutes a 17-year-old girl wanders out.
Policeman: Who are you? How old are you?
17-year-old: Their sister. 17 years old.
Policeman: Why are Jill and Johnny wandering outside by themselves?
17-year-old: I don't know.
Policeman: Where's your Mom?
17-year-old: They're with the moving truck at the new house in (next town.)
Policeman: Can you call her? (17-year-old has a cell phone in her hand.)
17-year-old: (looks at her phone) No, their phone is turned off. (How can she tell this just by looking at her phone? Those young 'uns sure do understand technology better than I.)
Policeman: What about your dad? Does he have a cell phone?
17-year-old: My dad or (indicating Jill and Johnny) their dad?
Policeman: Which one is with your mother right now?
17-year-old: Neither.
Policeman: Is there someone with your mother right now?
17-year-old: Yes.
Policeman: Who?
17-year-old: Her boyfriend.
Policeman: What's his name?
17-year-old: Biff.
Policeman: His last name?
17-year-old: I don't know.
( I am thinking of telling the policeman that this is starting to sound like a comedy routine but from his scowl I figure maybe now is not the time to point out the humour in the situation.)
I'll skip the part where the 17-year-old knows her Mom's name but doesn't remember her Mom's birthdate or exactly how old her Mom is.
Policeman: (not in a good mood) So tell me, can you think of a reason why I shouldn't call Social Services right now seeing as how your brother and sister are wandering the street in the middle of the night?
17-year-old: (shrugs) I don't know.
Policeman: (he's red in the face by now) OK here's what you're going to do. You're going to take your brother and sister into the house and you're going to sleep in the same room with them and you're going to lock the door so that they don't wander out and you're going to try to show that you care a little bit about your brother and sister and you're going to have your mother call me tomorrow... (added indignation omitted for the sake of brevity)
Kids go back in and policeman is muttering "Unbelievable. Unbelievable." He emphasizes with us (the neighbours and I) to be sure and call him if we hear anything else in the night but he didn't want to have to send the kids to social services if he didn't absolutely have to. I go home. Of course my wife has slept through the whole thing - and then she accuses me of being impossible to wake up!

The next day I saw the mother, boyfriend, Jill and Johnny leaving in her car. I was going to stop her to tell her (in case she didn't know) that the police came by but there were gone before I had the chance to.

[Silver Tyger]

I think calling the police was probably the best thing. You don't want to get into that kind of trouble and you don't have the authority a police officer does.

[Asimovian]

No, I think I would have waited outside since you knew the children were safe and right in front of you, and I would have allowed the police to handle the rest (as you did).

I can understand your temptation, but I can envision an unpleasant lawsuit stemming from your entering the home.

[DianaG]

Call the cops. You don't get to go barging into another person's house, or decide the greater good.

[Quartz]

Asimovian has it. Besides, what if the girl thought you were an intruder intent on raping her and slotted you?

And you should email the police thanking the officer.

[WhyNot]

Yep, you did good, and exactly what I would have done. What a bunch of fuckwits.

(Not re the scenario, but just the question in the OP, I'd sneak into a teenage girl's bedroom at 2AM if the next building over was on fire and I couldn't wake her by shouting, but that's about as clear cut a Greater Good as I can come up with to justify trespassing and scaring the bejeezus out of the girl - especially if I was a man. Even if she is a fuckwit.)

[Arnold Winkelried]

What could I possibly be sued for? I can't think of anything. Granted, I'm not a lawyer. I understand that their are reasons for me not to go in there, but on the other hand the police officier didn't do anything I couldn't have done - get the sister/babysitter up and tell her the kids got out of the house. I wouldn't really have burst into the room, but I could have entered the hallway and start shouting "Anybody home? It's 2 AM - do you know where your kids are?"
What does "slotted you" mean?

[RickJay]

What could I possibly be sued for?
Trespassing, obviously.

Your ethical duty was to ensure the immediate safety of the children, which you did by waiting and calling the police. You did the right thing. Entering the house was not necessary to accomplish that, and may have subjected you to danger - what if the girl had had a knife or a gun and thought you were an intruder?

[Arnold Winkelried]

I understand about the possibility of a trespassing charge, but I can't believe that any court would find me liable considering the circumstances.
How many 17-year-olds actually have a knife or a gun in their bedroom? We live in the suburbs here. It's another possibility but it seems awfully remote to me.

I suppose from a legal point of view it's wise to call the police, but I think it's a sad commentary on the state of modern society that it's considered dangerous to walk into a neighbour's house in these kinds of circumstances. I know that back home in Switzerland I would not have hesitated to go in and try to wake someone up from the entrance hall.

[Caffeine.addict]

Not to mention that sneaking into her bedroom could get your charged with breaking and entering. You did exactly the right thing.

[Arnold Winkelried]

Caffeine.addict: the front door of the house was wide open. That wouldn't be breaking and entering, would it? I'm not trying to be difficult here, just wondering about what the law would say.

[Sunrazor]

Well, at my age I'm not sneaking, barging or waltzing into any teen-age girl's bedroom without fire trucks, police cars and black helicopters already on the way. You done good, Arnold, and I commend your reluctance to call the police unless absolutely necessary. In this case, it was necessary ... that's what they're trained for, and they'll the be the first to tell you that. I like your inclination to handle it quietly as a neighbor who cares; fortunately, your better judgement prevailed. Good job.

[WhyNot]

I know that back home in Switzerland I would not have hesitated to go in and try to wake someone up from the entrance hall.
Well, that's a different scenario now. If the family in question was a good one, if their kids had not been neglected before, if, frankly, I liked them, I'd have no problem sticking my head in the open door and yelling my throat hoarse. If I'd ever been invited over for tea and been inside, I might even feel confident enough to walk inside as far as the bottom of the stairs or end of the hallway containing the bedrooms. I still wouldn't go into a bedroom without invite, short of a physical danger that was unavoidable any other way.

But you had the immediate danger alleviated and, honestly, this wasn't the first time. The police needed to be called, if for no other reason than to maintain a case file so IF something terrible happens next time, they've got a history of neglect to use as leverage to keep those kids safe.

[DianaG]

I understand that their are reasons for me not to go in there, but on the other hand the police officier didn't do anything I couldn't have done - get the sister/babysitter up and tell her the kids got out of the house.
The reason to call the police is that while he may not have done anything differently than you would, he is an authority entrusted with the public safety and you are the random guy next door.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I'd go in the house. I don't give a shit.

[Caffeine.addict]

I've never been in California and I know little of California law.

Every person who enters any house, room, apartment, tenement, shop, warehouse, store, mill, barn, stable, outhouse or other building, tent, vessel, as defined in Section 21 of the Harbors and Navigation Code, floating home, as defined in subdivision (d) of Section 18075.55 of the Health and Safety Code, railroad car, locked or sealed cargo container, whether or not mounted on a vehicle, trailer coach, as defined in Section 635 of the Vehicle Code, any house car, as defined in Section 362 of the Vehicle Code, inhabited camper, as defined in Section 243 of the Vehicle Code, vehicle as defined by the Vehicle Code, when the doors are locked, aircraft as defined by Section 21012 of the Public Utilities Code, or mine or any underground portion thereof, with intent to commit grand or petit larceny or any felony is guilty of burglary. As used in this chapter, "inhabited" means currently being used for dwelling purposes, whether occupied or not. A house, trailer, vessel designed for habitation, or portion of a building is currently being used for dwelling purposes if, at the time of the burglary, it was not occupied solely because a natural or other disaster caused the occupants to leave the premises.

To me it looks like the entry is all that is required. While you know that you were going in to tell her that her siblings were outside, the cop might not know. Why take chances.

From here. (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=458-464)

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

Why are you phrasing it as "sneaking" anyway?

[Freudian Slit]

Why are you phrasing it as "sneaking" anyway?
Yeah, it would have been less sneaking, more pounding down the door, right?

[Snarky_Kong]

This thread is way more boring than I had hoped.

No, I wouldn't have gone in.

[dangermom]

You did exactly right. You simply cannot go into a house to look for an unknown sleeping teenage girl, unless it's on fire. And the family now has a history with the police, which may be a good thing later on.

[lobotomyboy63]

Judging from your spelling (neighbour, humour), you're not a native of the U.S.

I applaud your concern for the children. I would have called the police, but not 911 (which is strictly for emergencies). Look up and use the "regular" number, since nobody's bleeding or anything.

If you're feeling altruistic, I'd gently let the mother know that the teen was asleep (literally) at the switch and that, not knowing the score, you called the police to make sure the kids would be okay. But really, if you don't go out of your way to tell her, I'm okay with that too.

IMO there's no good reason for a young child to be on the street late at night. There's the child's safety, the fact that neighbors have to work the next day, yadda. If their mother doesn't like it that you called the police, tough buns. It's incumbent on her, not you, to entrust them to someone whom she trusts to be responsible and mature.

[Dangerosa]

I applaud your concern for the children. I would have called the police, but not 911 (which is strictly for emergencies). Look up and use the "regular" number, since nobody's bleeding or anything.

That isn't universal. Years ago I arrived home to discover my door broken and my TV gone. Not an emergency, so I call my local precinct. Who tells me to call 911, they take all calls through 911.

[DrDeth]

You did right. Now, if there was screaming like a murder was being commited, then you can run in. Otherwise, call the cops.

[lobotomyboy63]

That isn't universal. Years ago I arrived home to discover my door broken and my TV gone. Not an emergency, so I call my local precinct. Who tells me to call 911, they take all calls through 911.

Judgment call, I suppose. In more populous areas, I'd call a local number but in smaller towns, 911 might be the default in the wee hours. Touché.

[StGermain]

I'd probably stand at the door and yell, but if I'd gotten such unsatisfactory answers I'd've still called the police. Does anyone know if the poor kids were fed?

StG

[clairobscur]

Background:

:eek: :confused: :mad: :(



Q: What would you have done? Gone inside the house to check or call the police?


FWIW, I would have done both.

[eleanorigby]

Poor Jill. Poor Johnny.

I would have done what you did do, but I think I would have waylaid the "mom" the next day and told her. I hope their new neighbors in their new neighborhood are as kind as the ones they left behind.


I still say there should be a license to breed.

[Rick]

I've never been in California and I know little of California law. Every person who enters any house, room, apartment, tenement, shop, warehouse, store, mill, barn, stable, outhouse or other building, tent, vessel, as defined in Section 21 of the Harbors and Navigation Code, floating home, as defined in subdivision (d) of Section 18075.55 of the Health and Safety Code, railroad car, locked or sealed cargo container, whether or not mounted on a vehicle, trailer coach, as defined in Section 635 of the Vehicle Code, any house car, as defined in Section 362 of the Vehicle Code, inhabited camper, as defined in Section 243 of the Vehicle Code, vehicle as defined by the Vehicle Code, when the doors are locked, aircraft as defined by Section 21012 of the Public Utilities Code, or mine or any underground portion thereof, with intent to commit grand or petit larceny or any felony is guilty of burglary. As used in this chapter, "inhabited" means currently being used for dwelling purposes, whether occupied or not. A house, trailer, vessel designed for habitation, or portion of a building is currently being used for dwelling purposes if, at the time of the burglary, it was not occupied solely because a natural or other disaster caused the occupants to leave the premises.



To me it looks like the entry is all that is required. While you know that you were going in to tell her that her siblings were outside, the cop might not know. Why take chances.

From here. (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=458-464)
Read for detail. It is only burglary if you enter with intent to steal.

[ready29003]

I would walk into the house and wake up that 17 year old girl...

...but only if I was in a situation where there was no such thing as a police force, like a warzone, or in the middle of a zombie attack, ..or alien attack...or something like that..

Otherwise, I do exactly what you did and call the police.

[Acid Lamp]

I would have called, and asked permission of the police to yell in the doorway for the girl, thus covering my ass, and hopefully resolving the situation without needing to hang around for the cops. Chances are they would probably tell me no, but it doesn't hurt to ry and save some time all around.

[threemae]

Read for detail. It is only burglary if you enter with intent to steal.

And, as stated in the original quote, the doors are locked, or it's an airplane or mine (which presumably don't have locks). I'm not a lawyer either, but the relevant code to me seems to point to the opposite interpretation from Caffeine.addict in that it only counts if the thing is locked and you're doing it for a naughty reason.

[John Carter of Mars]

I'd go in the house. I don't give a shit.

After all these years, I finally agree with Doggy Knees about something. Unreal!

Out here where I live, people still handle things like this themselves. You only call The Law if somebody's already dead.

[Wile E]

Although I think what you did was fine, I wonder why no one rang the doorbell to try to get the teenager out. No doorbell? How about knocking? How about going around to her bedroom window and pounding on it?

[Santo Rugger]

That isn't universal. Years ago I arrived home to discover my door broken and my TV gone. Not an emergency, so I call my local precinct. Who tells me to call 911, they take all calls through 911.Hell, I've lived in a town small enough that you called 911 to get your water turned off it was leaking, or back on if you didn't get it fixed until after the city offices shut down.

[Magiver]

Trespassing, obviously.

Your ethical duty was to ensure the immediate safety of the children, which you did by waiting and calling the police. You did the right thing. Entering the house was not necessary to accomplish that, and may have subjected you to danger - what if the girl had had a knife or a gun and thought you were an intruder?I agree. I can't believe society has degenerated to the point that the kids weren't immediately taken into custody as well as the 17 year old for failure to take care of them. Clearly she was left in charge. AFAIC the teenager was negligent (fill in your best guess as to why). The police had no business leaving her in charge.

Unf***ing believeable.

[Magiver]

After all these years, I finally agree with Doggy Knees about something. Unreal!

Out here where I live, people still handle things like this themselves. You only call The Law if somebody's already dead. The mother is 0 for 2 with this problem and you have no idea who or what is in the house. Getting into a pissing match with a hill-jack is a waste of time. Been there, done that. If it was someone I knew and their teenager was screwing up I would trespass but chances are you will be dealing with someone who accuses you of trespass. I'll only do that if I hear someone screaming for help or there is some indication a person is in distress.

[elbows]

I'm with Wile E and StGermain, you go ahead, call 911, but no way am I standing quietly by, that's just not going to happen.

I'd be up at that door opening it and closing it, loudly, and calling out, loud enough to wake the dead.

[Lobelia Overhill]

What does "slotted you" mean?

WAG shot, or possibly, stabbed.

I'd had thumped on the door and yelled till someone came out of the house, then told them I was calling the police/social services if they didn't take care of the two smaller kids.

Then I'd have run away and hid

[lieu]

I think I would have asked the new neighbor wife if she was comfortable going into the house and calling out to the sister while you and the new neighbor husband stood there with the kids. If that didn't rouse her, then call the police.

Regardless, this situation is going to play out over and over again wherever they move to in one incarnation or another. Sad.

[Dung Beetle]

Aw fuck. Good luck, kids.

[gigi]

Policeman: Can you call her? (17-year-old has a cell phone in her hand.)
17-year-old: (looks at her phone) No, their phone is turned off. (How can she tell this just by looking at her phone? Those young 'uns sure do understand technology better than I.)
Maybe she meant their service was terminated.

[Atrael]

A few years ago one of our cats got out. My wife was very upset, so I spent an hour or so making a flyer out with a reward notice and our telephone number. I placed a few on some telephone poles around the neighborhood. While I was doing that I noticed that a bunch of middle school kids were waiting for the bus. I handed out a few of the flyers and asked the kids to call if they found out cat.

Later than night I recieved a call from the local police asking why I had been approaching young girls on the street. I explained the situation to the officer who then told me that I should stick to the telephone poles and not ever hand out stuff like that again. Now this was a sub-division...so while it was a "leave it to beaver' type neighborhood, it was still a fairly close community.


So, take of that what you will when considering going into someone else's house and talking to a teenager with nobody else present. It doesn't matter what your intent is, or even what you do, what matters is "Can someone take your actions the wrong way"?

[Cat Fight]

A few years ago one of our cats got out. My wife was very upset, so I spent an hour or so making a flyer out with a reward notice and our telephone number. I placed a few on some telephone poles around the neighborhood. While I was doing that I noticed that a bunch of middle school kids were waiting for the bus. I handed out a few of the flyers and asked the kids to call if they found out cat.


In all fairness, the 'Help me find my lost pet' is a pretty common cover for kiddie diddlers.

The OP did the right thing, but my god, those poor fucking kids. And the cop – he must see that, and worse, all the time, knowing that it's 'best' to keep kids with their parents whenever possible.

[Wile E]

A few years ago one of our cats got out. My wife was very upset, so I spent an hour or so making a flyer out with a reward notice and our telephone number. I placed a few on some telephone poles around the neighborhood. While I was doing that I noticed that a bunch of middle school kids were waiting for the bus. I handed out a few of the flyers and asked the kids to call if they found out cat.

Later than night I recieved a call from the local police asking why I had been approaching young girls on the street. I explained the situation to the officer who then told me that I should stick to the telephone poles and not ever hand out stuff like that again. Now this was a sub-division...so while it was a "leave it to beaver' type neighborhood, it was still a fairly close community.


So, take of that what you will when considering going into someone else's house and talking to a teenager with nobody else present. It doesn't matter what your intent is, or even what you do, what matters is "Can someone take your actions the wrong way"?

Unfortunately, the "help me find my lost pet" ploy is a popular child molester trick. I don't think the situations are the same though, but I still think that it might have been possible to rouse the teenager without entering her room.

Although since she didn't seem intimidated by the police I doubt she would have given much thought to a couple soon-to-be-ex neighbors telling her she was doing a crappy job babysitting. So calling the police was probably the best solution in this situation. If there hadn't been a history of bad parenting with these neighbors though I might have tried a little harder to get the teenagers attention without actually entering the house.

[Dangerosa]

Judgment call, I suppose. In more populous areas, I'd call a local number but in smaller towns, 911 might be the default in the wee hours. Touché.

Minneapolis isn't generally regarded as a smaller town. They just do all their calls requiring dispatch through 911 or did at that time, regardless of hour of the day. You can call the precinct if all you need is a case number for insurance on a lost cell phone.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Well, on the one hand, I'm evil, so I try to avoid doing things for the greater good simply on principle.

On the other hand, while there are evil reasons to sneak in a teenage girl's bedroom at 2 am, I don't do THAT kind of evil. (Yes, we in the Evil Community do classify our evil. I'm only into conquest, social oppression, and rape of the EARTH, thank you very much.

On the other other hand, calling the police would lead to an amusing situation that would compensate me for being annoyed by the urchins.

So all three hands agree. No, I wouldn't.

[Vihaga]

Minneapolis isn't generally regarded as a smaller town. They just do all their calls requiring dispatch through 911 or did at that time, regardless of hour of the day. You can call the precinct if all you need is a case number for insurance on a lost cell phone.


Same with Philly; I got my purse snatched a couple years ago, called the precinct, and got (gently) chewed out for not calling 911 instead. The cops who showed up said there were enough cruisers in the area that they might have caught the thieves as they ran off and that 911 is appropriate for anything like that, even if I don't think it's an emergency.

[Jelymag]

I am usually very hesitant to call 911 since I don't want to keep them away from a worse emergency. But if it involved unsupervised young children on the street at night I would definitely have called also. I wouldn't ever go into a neighbor's house myself, being the wuss that I am, unless I was sure that there was someone actually in the house needing help. FWIW, it looks like if you had gone into the house without calling, the girl would not have been much help anyway. She was pretty surly to the policemen, so I doubt she would have been very helpful to you.

(hijack)My sister has TWICE found the same little boy wandering the street in her neighborhood, once maybe a year ago and then again maybe six or seven months ago. The first time she just happened to look out the window and saw him toddling down the road. She went out and watched him to see if an adult would come looking for him. No one came so she approached the child and asked him his name and where he lived. He was either scared or didn't know so she ended up calling the police. She thinks he was probably about two years old!! (Didn't speak well, still wearing a diaper, small and still baby fat) The police came but after a while no one showed up so they ended up taking him with Social Services people. I have no idea how they ended up returning him, but imagine my sister's shock when she found the same little boy. The police came again, but were able to return him to his home, which was apparently on the next street over. I can't believe there are people out there that are this irresponsible with their children! (end hijack)

[Thalion]

Arnold, you definitely did the right thing. The cops (I'm one) really don't have better things to do than make sure that children are safe.

I agree that you probably wouldn't have to worry about being charged with anything if you went in the house, but why risk that or a violent response? That's why you pay taxes to employ cops - to do stuff like this.

In addition, this has now been documented in case something else happens with these kids in their new how.

Good job!

[Thalion]

Oh, about 911. Yeah, it can be better to use the non-emergency number, but it really isn't that big a deal to use 911 if you're in a hurry. Most dispatch centers can switch a call over to a non-emergency line if it's appropriate.

The police response isn't based on what number you call - after the dispatcher gets the details they assign a priority to the call and the officers know which ones to handle first. They aren't going to skip an armed robbery for this call, but they will divert from something less important.

It really bothers me when people don't call when they should, because they don't want to bother us or think we have better things to do. Call!! If we do have something else that's more important, we will take longer to get to your call. But we'll never get there if you don't report the problem.

(OK, I'm a small town cop who really believes in public service. Cops from large, super-busy jurisdictions may not agree, but this is how it should work).

[Gorsnak]

No comment on how best to proceed, but I'm not sure I'd have been able to resist adding a little something to the dialogue....

Policeman: Is there someone with your mother right now?
17-year-old: Yes.
Policeman: Who?
17-year-old: Her boyfriend.
Policeman: What's his name?
17-year-old: Biff.
Policeman: His last name?
17-year-old: I don't know.
[Gorsnak: THIRD BASE!]

[muldoonthief]

The cops (I'm one) really don't have better things to do than make sure that children are safe.


Beautifully phrased.

[Magiver]

The more I think about it the more I think the police should have taken the kids away at that point. It was obvious from the conversation with the teenager that she was a complete cunt and entrusting her with the kids after the confrontation was a newspaper headline waiting to happen.

[Freudian Slit]

On the devil's advocate side, what was the girl supposed to do? I mean, it seems like the kids have gotten used to wandering around at night from the mother--so if she's watching them and it's past midnight and she is sleeping, how is she supposed to stop them from getting out if they've already learned that it's cool to wander around?

[katpohl]

Calling the police was your only choice.

The way things are these days when minor children are involved .

A police officer or a CPS person are trained and authorized to deal with any thing that may come up when minor children are involved.

Also the officer's and CPS reports will stand up in court ,if it were to go that far ,where a non family members word just becomes part of the whole issue needing to be sorted out .

That 17 year old sister could have said any number of thins to try and 'cover' her own lack of responsibility and attention to those little kids in her care. And the teenager would have been believed just because it would have been her word against your word.

[WhyNot]

On the devil's advocate side, what was the girl supposed to do? I mean, it seems like the kids have gotten used to wandering around at night from the mother--so if she's watching them and it's past midnight and she is sleeping, how is she supposed to stop them from getting out if they've already learned that it's cool to wander around?
Lock the door. Sleep in front of it, if she has to. And if she can't keep them safe, refuse to babysit or call the police herself.

[Freudian Slit]

Lock the door. Sleep in front of it, if she has to. And if she can't keep them safe, refuse to babysit or call the police herself.
Well, yeah, locking the door is probably the most obvious solution, but I was assuming that the kids were just unlocking it (since it would be unlocked from the inside).

[Sarahfeena]

Lock the door. Sleep in front of it, if she has to. And if she can't keep them safe, refuse to babysit or call the police herself. Not to mention at least acting like she has some concern for them when the police bring them home in the middle of the night.

[WhyNot]

Well, yeah, locking the door is probably the most obvious solution, but I was assuming that the kids were just unlocking it (since it would be unlocked from the inside).
My kid's best friend was one of those toddler wanderers. They'd lock the deadbolt, he'd unlock it. They'd use the chain lock, he'd figure out how to open it. The put a hook and eye up about 7 feet up, kid dragged over a stack of boxes to stand on. He never met a lock he couldn't figure out - until they installed a dead bolt backwards so you needed a key to get out.

Kids are ingenious, no doubt. But we have power tools. :p

[threemae]

He never met a lock he couldn't figure out - until they installed a dead bolt backwards so you needed a key to get out.

And then there's a fire and your kid burns to death because he can't get out...

I agree that Arnold did the right thing by calling the cops on this situation, but the children were at no imminent risk of dying. Sometimes kids will wander off and I'm not sure there's too much to reasonably be done about it. They could probably hope for a better babysitter than their 17 year old sister, but kids can wander out of a house with most any babysitter if they want to. Depending on their predilection for doing this in prior circumstances, perhaps the 17 year old should have done more to anticipate the possibility, but we really don't know enough from this thread to schedule her burning at the steak just yet.

Removal from the home by CPS? Because being carted off in the middle of the night to stay with strangers for a week is a fun, non-disruptive activity for children as evidenced by the shining emotional health of the graduates of our foster care system. :rolleyes:

I don't know, The Dope can be a funny place. Suggest that kids ought to wear bike helmets because a lot of them get head injuries or worse every year and people stare at you as if you've grown a third eye or they regard you with contemp; "back in my day, we would jump off five-foot ledges on our mountain bikes with no helmets on and intentionally land face-down just because we liked the sound it made on the asphalt and we turned out just fine." But kids outside at night? "That isn't a home! Better to have them living with strangers!"

[Magiver]

On the devil's advocate side, what was the girl supposed to do? SAY WHAT? a 17 year old isn't suppose to know what to do? Are you kidding me. Seriously, are you kidding me? This goes without saying but she was supposed to keep an eye on the kids. Any normal person would have responded to the police in a more positive and responsible manner.

The only way she could have made it worse was to drop them off next to a freeway.

[Magiver]

until they installed a dead bolt backwards so you needed a key to get out. they're called double deadbolts. I have them on all my exterior doors. And I seriously doubt a child would wander outside twice if I was watching then.

[Sarahfeena]

they're called double deadbolts. I have them on all my exterior doors. And I seriously doubt a child would wander outside twice if I was watching then. This seems like a theme on those nanny reality shows on TV. I can't tell you how many times I've seen one where the family had a 2 or 3 year old who was just wandering around the neighborhood. When the nanny confronts the parents about it, invariably they say something to the effect of "What can we do? He lets himself out." Seriously? You can't figure out a way to be sure a 3-year-old stays inside the house? Heaven help you when he's in high school!

ETA: I'm not saying I know where my older child is every second (she's 4 now, so she has a little more leeway to play somewhere in the house where I can't see her), but I have a pretty general idea of what she's doing, and if I can't hear her for a few minutes, I go to investigate. If I found her outside in the street, I would FREAK OUT, and you can be sure I would figure out how she managed to get out there and fix the situation so it didn't happen again. It's not that I'm the most cautious mother around (I'm one of the few parents at preschool who has not provided a helmet for her kid to wear while riding the tricycles), but some things just frankly scare me, and the thought of one of them getting hit by a car is pretty far up on the list!

[muldoonthief]

they're called double deadbolts. I have them on all my exterior doors. And I seriously doubt a child would wander outside twice if I was watching then.

In a lot of places (like Massachusetts), it's illegal (or at least a building code violation) to install double deadbolts in a residence, for the whole "trapped in a burning building" problem.

[photopat]

they're called double deadbolts. I have them on all my exterior doors. And I seriously doubt a child would wander outside twice if I was watching then.

Sure but that's because you'd figure out a way to lock them down with duct tape, a broken broom handle and half a deck of cards. You're Magiver, damn it!

As for the OP, you definitely did the right thing by calling the police and not going into the house. There certainly are situations in which running into somebody's house is justified, but whenever possible call for help.

[Sarahfeena]

In a lot of places (like Massachusetts), it's illegal (or at least a building code violation) to install double deadbolts in a residence, for the whole "trapped in a burning building" problem. My house had them when I was growing up, and my mom made us keep the key in the lock at all times, for that reason. I think the house had them because the door had decorative windows, so it prevents someone from busting the window, reaching through, and turning the lock. My best girlfriend's house had the same thing, and when I went over, she would look, verify it was me, and then go to the kitchen drawer to get the key. I guess her family was more afraid of being murdered by a home invader, and mine was more afraid of being killed in a fire!

[katpohl]

SAY WHAT? a 17 year old isn't suppose to know what to do? Are you kidding me. Seriously, are you kidding me? This goes without saying but she was supposed to keep an eye on the kids. Any normal person would have responded to the police in a more positive and responsible manner.

The only way she could have made it worse was to drop them off next to a freeway.


Look at the 'role model' she has had to learn about responsibility for anything or any one else.
I am not trying to excuse the teenager for not taking better care of those little ones.

[Arnold Winkelried]

Sleeps With Butterflies, Freudian Slit: I used the expression "sneaking" in the thread title because I had a longer expression before but then part of the thread title was being cut off and so I had to shorten my sentence somehow. Also it gives the whole adventure more cloak and dagger feel and makes it sound more exciting. As Snarky_Kong realized to his disappointment. I couldn't really say "break in" since the door was open.

StGermain: the children never looked underfed to me. I don't think food is the problem in that household.

clairobscur: I see that you would have gone in also. But then you (like I to a certain extent) might have the European point of view. It seems that most people in the US are thinking differently.

lobotomyboy63: I grew up in Europe (even though I was born in the USA) and the dictionary I had at home was British which is why I got into the habit of spelling some words in the British way. Even though I live in the US now. I'll have to check with my local police department if they want calls to the ordinary number. I remember reading the same thing in the novel "Confess, Fletch" by Gregory McDonald, staring investigative reporter Fletch - Fletch finds a dead body in his vacation exchange home and calls the regular police number instead of 911, which makes the police suspicious of him - wouldn't someone usually call 911 when they find a dead body? Fletch says "why the hurry? he's already dead."

Acid Lamp - not a bad idea, ask the 911 person if it's OK for me to go into the house. But I'm sure she would have said no.

Diogenes the Cynic and John Carter of Mars are the two votes for going in. But so far the vast majority say "don't go in". Diogenes - are you an act first and damn the consequences kind of guy? :)

Wile E made an astute comment (similar to what elbows and Lobelia Overhill suggested) - why didn't we at least ring the doorbell or knock on the open front door? I feel stupid now for not thinking of it. Trying to think back to my state of mind that night, I guess I would say that I wasn't sure that there really was an older sister in the house. The neighbours suggested the idea since they had seen an older girl around during the day, and it seemed very unlikely to me that the mother would have left a 6 and 4-year-old at home by themselves, but the mother does have a history (see the OP). When I asked Jill "is your sister here?" she said yes, when I asked if the sister was older she said yes, but then she was saying yes to almost everything I asked and she looked a little scared of me (I haven't spoken to her much before.) I was figuring that maybe she was just saying yes to every question. I did send her in the house to get her sister and while we were talking she went inside several times and came out without anybody being with her. It seemed to me very odd that the sister could've been asleep the whole time - Johnny woke me twice by his crying (2:00 and 2:10) and my house is not right next door, it's one over.
I wouldn't go around the house knocking on windows. For one thing, their house (like mine) is two stories and the bedrooms are probably upstairs. Secondly, I would go in the open front door sooner that I would go into someone's back yard. Getting in the back yard at night would seem to the occupant to be more of a suspicious activity than walking in the front door, I would think.

lieu, the new neighbour wife expressed no desire to go into the other house. Especially since I seemed to know the kids more than she did. She was the one who was most keen on calling the police.

Thalion, thanks for the law enforcement point of view. I'm in the greater Los Angeles area but in a suburban town so maybe the police have more time than I think. About a month ago my wife called the police about some kids in the park (another story) and they showed up in less than 10 minutes.

Gorsnak: I don't get it. Something to do with having sex with the mother?

Freudian Slit: the children getting out is one thing. The older sister not hearing the child crying loudly in the street is another. Like I said, there is one house between my house and Jill and Johnny's house and Johnny woke me up - twice!

[Arnold Winkelried]

A friend of mine gave me once another reason for double deadbolts. If a thief goes into your house through a window, and he can open the door from inside, he can carry things out through a door. If he can't open the door from the inside, then he has to carry things out through the window which
a) would be more suspicious to anyone seeing him and
b) would be harder so he's less likely to take your big-screen TV for example.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Gorsnak: I don't get it. Something to do with having sex with the mother?






I'm pretty sure it was a "Who's on First" joke.

[Arnold Winkelried]

Not to mention at least acting like she has some concern for them when the police bring them home in the middle of the night.In the teenager's defense, when the policeman at one point asked her "Don't you care about your brother and sister?" she answered "Yeah, I care." I was waiting for the " :rolleyes: whatever" to finish the sentence but it didn't appear. I can't wait till my boys are teenagers.

[Shodan]

The cops (I'm one) really don't have better things to do than make sure that children are safe.Quoted for truth, and thank God for it. And thank you, Thalion, for your service.

Arnold (I hope you don't mind my using your first name), you did exactly the right thing. Susie is a woman doing everything in her power to ensure that her children wind up just as fucked-up and irresponsible as she is, and has done yeoman's work on her seventeen year old daughter already. I suspect if you added the IQ of the whole family together with Susie's boyfriend's added in for bonus points, you wouldn't reach triple digits.

But if there is anything in the world people like this can see, it is an opportunity to shift the blame. And you can bet your sweet Aunt Fannie that if you were able to cause a synapse to close in that pint of sludge on top of Susie's brain stem, she would shift to insisting the police arrest you for endangering her precious brood with the well-practiced ease of a hooker slipping out of her underpants.

I look forward to an appearance of Jill and Johnny on The Jerry Springer Show, Susie and her boyfriend on Cops, or the whole fucking family to run for public office.

Regards,
Shodan

[Arnold Winkelried]

I'm pretty sure it was a "Who's on First" joke. :smack: How could I miss that? That's exactly what I was thinking when the police and the 17-year-old were having their verbal sparring exchange.

[Skald the Rhymer]

But if there is anything in the world people like this can see, it is an opportunity to shift the blame. And you can bet your sweet Aunt Fannie that if you were able to cause a synapse to close in that pint of sludge on top of Susie's brain stem, she would shift to insisting the police arrest you for endangering her precious brood with the well-practiced ease of a hooker slipping out of her underpants.



Like you, I'm also quoting for truth. I'm also quoting to let you know that I'll be stealing the bolded section. :)

[Arnold Winkelried]

Arnold (I hope you don't mind my using your first name)Anybody over 1000 posts can call me by my first name. :) Thanks for the support.

[Bosstone]

After reading this entire thread, all I can say is...

...There's Fletch novels? I had no idea!

*runs off to Amazon*

[Skald the Rhymer]

After reading this entire thread, all I can say is...

...There's Fletch novels? I had no idea!


But of course. They're like the Chevy Chase movie, only funny.

[mswas]

Yeah, this woman is Jerry Springer type, you don't want to get into any drama with her. She'll press every advantage and turn your life into a nightmare for pointing out her flaws. Definitely you handled it correctly.

[WhyNot]

And then there's a fire and your kid burns to death because he can't get out...
Yep, it's certainly a possibility. But the probability of a fire at that end of the apartment (away from the kitchen) was, let's say, n, and the probability of the kid wandering out of his apartment onto the busy City of Chicago street in front of the building (Devon Ave, for those in the know) was 99.9% in any one night. n<99.9%, so their choice wasn't that difficult.

Besides, when the kid finally did set fire to the place, it was when his uncle was recuperating from open heart surgery on the couch. So there was supervision present. ;) (Note to Og: thank you for my boring, well behaved children.)

[DrDeth]

Anybody over 1000 posts can call me by my first name. :) Thanks for the support.

Does that mean I can call you Arn? :p

[DrDeth]

In all fairness, the 'Help me find my lost pet' is a pretty common cover for kiddie diddlers. .

"Stranger Danger" is highly over rated.

[Freudian Slit]

SAY WHAT? a 17 year old isn't suppose to know what to do? Are you kidding me. Seriously, are you kidding me? This goes without saying but she was supposed to keep an eye on the kids. Any normal person would have responded to the police in a more positive and responsible manner.

The only way she could have made it worse was to drop them off next to a freeway.
At two in the morning? I mean, I'd be asleep, not taking care of kids. Plus if I'm their sister, I'd assume my mother was taking care of them, but then I was a lot younger when I had a sibling that young.

[susan_foster]

Does that mean I can call you Arn? :p

Not if you expect him to answer.

[Magiver]

At two in the morning? I mean, I'd be asleep, not taking care of kids. Plus if I'm their sister, I'd assume my mother was taking care of them, but then I was a lot younger when I had a sibling that young.
You're adding a bunch of "what ifs" which may or may not be true. Unfortunately we could do that all day long. So lets look at what we do know:

Teenage daughter was not remotely concerned about the children.

I would have freaked out because I would care about my brother and sister. Hell, I would freek out if I found anybody's kids were outside crying at 2 in the morning.

[Freudian Slit]

Yeah, I guess I'd be freaked out if there were kids out in the street at two. I just didn't know, personally, that you had to take care of them at all hours of the night...honestly, if I had to take care of kids in the house and it was the middle of the night, I'd just assume they would be asleep and I wouldn't have to do anything.

[Arnold Winkelried]

Does that mean I can call you Arn?No, but once you reach 100,00 posts you can call me Big A.

[Arnold Winkelried]

honestly, if I had to take care of kids in the house and it was the middle of the night, I'd just assume they would be asleep and I wouldn't have to do anything.You mean, like if they were crying in the hallway outside your room, you wouldn't need to do anything? If you heard them wailing in their crib, you wouldn't need to do anything? If they were pounding on your door and screaming "Help! There's a burglar in the house!" you wouldn't need to do anything? If someone came in your room and said "I just threw up in the bed" you wouldn't need to do anything? If your little sister came in your room and said "there's people in front of the house that want to talk to you because Johnny woke them up at 2AM by shrieking 'Mommy' on the sidewalk" you wouldn't need to do anything?

I would at least assume that my responsibilities include being able to hear if anyone crying. I.e. no noise-cancelling headphones, no being passed out drunk in the bathtub, no being in a coma from drug use.

[Freudian Slit]

You mean, like if they were crying in the hallway outside your room, you wouldn't need to do anything? If you heard them wailing in their crib, you wouldn't need to do anything? If they were pounding on your door and screaming "Help! There's a burglar in the house!" you wouldn't need to do anything? If someone came in your room and said "I just threw up in the bed" you wouldn't need to do anything? If your little sister came in your room and said "there's people in front of the house that want to talk to you because Johnny woke them up at 2AM by shrieking 'Mommy' on the sidewalk" you wouldn't need to do anything?
Yeah, but if I were asleep, then I probably wouldn't be able to hear them. Then again, I'm a light sleeper so I guess I'd probably hear crying in the hallway. I don't know--small children definitely make me uncomfortable, so I'm probably not the best person to sit for them.

[DrDeth]

No, but once you reach 100,00 posts you can call me Big A.

I have 13,30 more than that. :p

[Arnold Winkelried]

Yeah, but if I were asleep, then I probably wouldn't be able to hear them. Then again, I'm a light sleeper so I guess I'd probably hear crying in the hallway.IF someone was crying in front of the house loud enough to wake up the people in the house next door AND the house one past the house next door on the other side, do you think you would be able to hear that?

I mean, if you're the kind of person that would sleep through a murder with furniture being knocked over in the bedroom next to yours, then yeah, I wouldn't advise you to hang out a shingle advertising babysitter services.

[Freudian Slit]

IF someone was crying in front of the house loud enough to wake up the people in the house next door AND the house one past the house next door on the other side, do you think you would be able to hear that?
Yeah, I would hear that for sure...

[Arnold Winkelried]

And at that point, would you perhaps think that there's something you should do? I don't mean to belabour the point here, but this teenager was a doofus and one reason I regret calling the police is that I would have loved to be the one to give her a speech on responsibilities and why being an idiot should not be a badge of honour.

[Freudian Slit]

And at that point, would you perhaps think that there's something you should do?
Hey man, I watched sitcoms. I know the act.

"Stop crying before I give you something to cry about!"

Now, if I was only a sibling, I couldn't deliver this classic line:

"I brought you into this world, I can take you out."

[Sleeps With Butterflies]

IF someone was crying in front of the house loud enough to wake up the people in the house next door AND the house one past the house next door on the other side, do you think you would be able to hear that?

I mean, if you're the kind of person that would sleep through a murder with furniture being knocked over in the bedroom next to yours, then yeah, I wouldn't advise you to hang out a shingle advertising babysitter services.

You mean the way your wife slept through it all? Thank goodness she won't be caring for children, right!?

[Arnold Winkelried]

You mean the way your wife slept through it all? Thank goodness she won't be caring for children, right!?We were two houses over as I've said a couple of times before. If it was right in front of our house I'm sure she would have heard it. Our kids sleep in the same house as ours, not two houses down. When our children were babies and sleeping in a separate room, she would hear them crying. Also our kids know that if something is wrong they should come into our room and tell us. When we leave them with babysitters, we tell the children "if something is wrong you tell the babysitter and she will contact us."

[Sleel]

How many 17-year-olds actually have a knife or a gun in their bedroom? We live in the suburbs here. It's another possibility but it seems awfully remote to me.
I did, and I lived in the suburbs. Of course, I was a 17 year old boy and not a 17 year old girl, and I wouldn't have attacked someone without at least figuring out what the heck was going on, by screaming, "I'm armed. Who the fuck are you and what do you want?" If you got "perforated" you'd have to earn it by being dangerous.

No, I wouldn't go into someone else's house without either permission or an obvious need for immediate action. I seriously can't believe no one tried knocking on the door and ringing the doorbell before calling the cops. Is everyone completely incapable of resolving difficulties without appealing to authority anymore?

All the people who were tearing into the girl for her responses to the police officer, 1) Do you not remember being a teenager? 2) Have you ever been woken up unexpectedly at 2:00? and 3) Have you ever had to deal with being lectured by a cop at 2:00 in the morning after being woken up unexpectedly when your parents aren't home, because your idiot little brother and sister did something un-fucking-believable like wandering around outside when they should have been in bed asleep like you were?

I wake up quickly, even when awakened under odd circumstances, and I'd still be a little incredulous and might not react "normally" in that situation. Anyone would naturally be defensive and not exactly forthcoming, even if they weren't a typical uncommunicative teenager. I'd also be absolutely LIVID with my siblings and trying to hold onto my temper long enough to not yell at them for doing something like that, especially in front of a cop who might decide to do something drastic that would land all of us in custody.

Some of the questions are weird anyway. I would have had no idea what my parent's birthdays are; we didn't really celebrate birthdays for several years due in part to religious beliefs, and my parents never celebrated their own birthdays that I can remember. If my mother was divorced twice, and dating a new guy, I wouldn't know or care what the hell his name was unless I knew he was going to be sticking around.

Glancing at the phone when asked about whether she could contact her mother is an unconscious tick. I've pointlessly glanced at my watch when I'm thinking about a future date. Useless, but I've done it. She probably tried calling earlier and went straight through to voicemail. That means either the phone is off or the battery is dead. I've been unable to contact my wife in exactly that way, and once you've tried a few times over a few hours, you have no expectation that anything will change, especially at that hour.

I can see from your comments that none of you have had much experience with the social services system. One of the worst things in the world to ever happen to a kid is to be taken out of their homes. You should be damn sure that the living conditions of the home are absolutely fucked up before making a decision to get the kids out. I worked as the executive assistant to the director of a social services program for a year and a half and often talked to the case workers there, so I kind of know what I'm talking about. Though it's been a while since I had any first-hand experience, I really doubt things have changed for the better all that much.

Official custody, even under the best circumstances, is hellishly traumatic for most kids. Even borderline hardcases come back from a brief stay in custody with a notably subdued attitude. Worse, when CPS gets involved there is usually a presumption of guilt against the parents no matter what happened. Have you guys not heard some of the CPS horror stories? Agencies can be almost unbelievably Kafaesque in how they deal with families once they've been involved in any capacity.

In circumstances like this, where the parent had a reasonable expectation that an older sibling would be sufficiently responsible to watch the younger ones, having the kids taken into custody would be the start of a parental nightmare. It could take days or even weeks to get your kids back. During that time, living conditions would be (vast understatement) less than ideal for the young ones, they might be separated from their siblings and children are not always kept informed as to what's happening or when they might be able to see their parents again. How is being removed from a parent's custody remotely helpful in this case? It's not, it would be a terrible experience for all the kids and the parents, including the non-custodial parents who might be dragged into the mess.

[susan_foster]

Hey man, I watched sitcoms. I know the act.

"Stop crying before I give you something to cry about!"

Now, if I was only a sibling, I couldn't deliver this classic line:

"I brought you into this world, I can take you out."

Ah, and now I will share the great words of the lullaby we sang to my oldest nephew (we being me and my cousins):

Jonathan, don't you cry
Jonathan, or I'll poke you in the eye
Jonathan, I'll give you something to cry about
Nothing to cry about oh no.

Susan
(That's actually the second verse. I'm still trying to remember the words to the first.)

[Magiver]

IF someone was crying in front of the house loud enough to wake up the people in the house next door AND the house one past the house next door on the other side, do you think you would be able to hear that?

I mean, if you're the kind of person that would sleep through a murder with furniture being knocked over in the bedroom next to yours, then yeah, I wouldn't advise you to hang out a shingle advertising babysitter services.
I once walked over a 1/4 mile because a dog was barking. It was like 20 below zero and 2 feet of snow. I had to put on a bunny suit to make the trip. I rang the doorbell and just stared at them. "dog", "barking", "too cold out". This was around midnight.

[Arnold Winkelried]

I seriously can't believe no one tried knocking on the door and ringing the doorbell before calling the cops.Yeah, now that I think back, that was pretty dumb, but I did send the little girl in to get her sister and no one came out.
All the people who were tearing into the girl for her responses to the police officer, 1) Do you not remember being a teenager? 2) Have you ever been woken up unexpectedly at 2:00? and 3) Have you ever had to deal with being lectured by a cop at 2:00 in the morning after being woken up unexpectedly when your parents aren't home, because your idiot little brother and sister did something un-fucking-believable like wandering around outside when they should have been in bed asleep like you were?I didn't expect the teenager to be happy, but I did expect her to at least talk to the four-year-old or say something to him like "It's OK" and ask the 6-year-old "what are you doing out? Why didn't you come and get me?" The 17-year-old is supposed to be more responsible than the four-year-old.
I'd also be absolutely LIVID with my siblings and trying to hold onto my temper long enough to not yell at them for doing something like that, especially in front of a cop who might decide to do something drastic that would land all of us in custody.If the teenager is worried about having the kids in custody, maybe she should answer with something else besides a shrug and an "I don't know" when the policeman asks her "why shouldn't I call Social Services right now."
Some of the questions are weird anyway. I would have had no idea what my parent's birthdays areThe policeman didn't want to send the mother a birthday card, he was trying to determine the answer to the question "How old is your mother?" - another piece of information that the teenager did not seem to have.
Glancing at the phone when asked about whether she could contact her mother is an unconscious tick.Nothing wrong with looking at the phone. I was just wondering how she would know her mother's phone was turned off by looking at her own phone. If there is some magic trick I'd like to know about it! She could have been checking for messages or maybe verifying that the service was terminated like gigi said on Page 1 of the thread.
One of the worst things in the world to ever happen to a kid is to be taken out of their homes. You should be damn sure that the living conditions of the home are absolutely fucked up before making a decision to get the kids out.If this is a common attitude in this country, then I'm not surprised anymore at reading these awful stories of children being horribly mistreated and still left with their parents after neighbours call the police and social workers come to visit.

[Arnold Winkelried]

I once walked over a 1/4 mile because a dog was barking. It was like 20 below zero and 2 feet of snow. I had to put on a bunny suit to make the trip. I rang the doorbell and just stared at them.Did they at least offer you a cup of hot cocoa and thank you for your trouble? Or bring the dog inside the house?

[Moirai]

Arnold, if I heard the kids crying out in the street at 2:00 am that mommy left at midnight and didn't come back, I am calling the cops first thing. Those poor kids. :( And fuck that teenager- those kids could have been hurt or gone, and she probably wouldn't have even noticed in the morning that they were missing... :mad:

You did the right thing. There are some good cops in CM.

[Sleel]

If this is a common attitude in this country, then I'm not surprised anymore at reading these awful stories of children being horribly mistreated and still left with their parents after neighbours call the police and social workers come to visit.

There have been many cases of CPS misconduct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Protective_Services#Cases_of_CPS_abuses_against_families[/url) and there are currently few protections for parents against CPS charges. Someone can bring out an unfounded accusation and the parents will need to defend themselves against it because officials will have to take it seriously. Yes, your kids could be taken away even if you have done nothing illegal, immoral, or even slightly wrong to them.

If you don't see the kind of emotional trauma that a 4 or 6 year old kid would have in being separated from their parents and siblings for at least a day or two while they go through the system, and possibly not even being informed about what's going on, then I don't know what to tell you. It's not a fun thing. Kids sometimes blame themselves for being taken away from their parents. And like I said, even problem kids are traumatized by simple separation. I think that you should do it only when absolutely necessary.

Kids have also been sexually and physically assaulted by other kids while in CPS custody, which is something else you should take into consideration. Kids who were taken away from parents for relatively minor problems at home have ben put with foster parents who were abusive, making their new living situation much worse than when they were with their own parents.

I'm not seeing any abuse at all here, just some kids doing something dumb, and a teenager not even realizing how serious the situation could have become. None of us have any idea how the kids got out, but I'd be willing to bet that the door was locked, and they unlocked it and went out on their own. I don't see how anyone, parent, teenager, or otherwise, could have taken more stringent protections against such an odd occurrence. Frankly I find it very disturbing that so many people in this thread are clamoring for the kids to be taken away.

[WhyNot]

Frankly I find it very disturbing that so many people in this thread are clamoring for the kids to be taken away.
I'm sorry, I missed that part of the thread. "Clamoring"? Really? Or mentioning that if intervention becomes warranted in the future, the police now have a clear understanding and written documentation of this incident? World of difference. Wouldn't you be happier if more CPS cases had clear, long-standing documentation? Wouldn't that make it less likely for mistakes? Didn't the police officer in the OP basically agree with everything you're saying by working very hard to make sure the kids didn't end up with child services that night?

[lorene]

I can see from your comments that none of you have had much experience with the social services system. One of the worst things in the world to ever happen to a kid is to be taken out of their homes. You should be damn sure that the living conditions of the home are absolutely fucked up before making a decision to get the kids out. I worked as the executive assistant to the director of a social services program for a year and a half and often talked to the case workers there, so I kind of know what I'm talking about. Though it's been a while since I had any first-hand experience, I really doubt things have changed for the better all that much.

Official custody, even under the best circumstances, is hellishly traumatic for most kids. Even borderline hardcases come back from a brief stay in custody with a notably subdued attitude. Worse, when CPS gets involved there is usually a presumption of guilt against the parents no matter what happened. Have you guys not heard some of the CPS horror stories? Agencies can be almost unbelievably Kafaesque in how they deal with families once they've been involved in any capacity.


I think it's a big stretch to make that kind of statement about CPS agencies everywhere. I was a child/family mental health clinician and worked closely with CPS here in Massachusetts and there were plenty of times when the kids I worked with would have been well-served to be taken out of their homes but the system here favors family unification and didn't/wouldn't do so. IME, that was the true misconduct. None of the kids I worked with who were eventually moved to foster care ended up harmed in foster care. Usually they didn't want to go back to their parents. I'm not saying it's always like that, but that's a pretty broad brush you were painting with.

[Sleel]

I'm sorry, I missed that part of the thread. "Clamoring"? Really? Or mentioning that if intervention becomes warranted in the future, the police now have a clear understanding and written documentation of this incident? World of difference. Wouldn't you be happier if more CPS cases had clear, long-standing documentation? Wouldn't that make it less likely for mistakes? Didn't the police officer in the OP basically agree with everything you're saying by working very hard to make sure the kids didn't end up with child services that night?

I usually don't pay too much attention to user names, so I didn't realize that the same person, Magiver, posted a couple of times about having the kids taken away. Cat Fight's comment, "And the cop – he must see that, and worse, all the time, knowing that it's 'best' to keep kids with their parents whenever possible," implies that she thinks the kids should have been taken away too. Clamoring was an overstatement.

However, I think most of you have been ridiculously critical of the girl and her mother. It's hardly neglect when, as I and a few other people pointed out, everyone should have been asleep, and there's no indication that the older sister did anything really stupid like leave the front door hanging open. Maybe I'm an unusual kid, but I remember several times when I woke up in the middle of the night and wandered around the house, went out into the back yard, or messed around in the garage. We lived out in the country when I was really little, so it was black and scary out there, and I knew that there were dangerous animals, so I wouldn't have gone out.

When we lived in the city I was older and, though we lived in the "good" part of town, it had a high crime rate. My dad drilled into our heads the idea that you never leave windows or doors unlocked, and you never go out at night by yourself. Someone who wasn't quite so hardcore as my dad might not go that far. And I can easily see a 4 year old not getting it anyway, or letting the distress at not finding mom in bed when he woke up overriding any admonitions not to go out of the house.

I still disagree with most of the people who said that getting the police and CPS involved was the best thing to do. The first thing should have been to find out if anyone was home and let them know that there was a problem. It's not like the kids were starved, beaten, or abused in any other way. I mean, really, how are you going to guard against something like this without knowing in advance that your kid would so something so weird?

Documenting a history of problems is all well and good, but if you are a normally responsible parent who had a freak occurrence like this happen, how would you feel if the kids had actually been taken away? How victimized would you feel by the system? How upset would your kids be? How paranoid would you be in the future, knowing that this isolated incident was part of your case file? If you ever had an argument with your teenager about anything, that kid could just call CPS and probably have the younger ones taken away. If you had an argument with your SO and the neighbors call, there's another mark on your "permanent record" as it were.

Yes, I'm very glad that the police officer didn't have the kids taken away. By the way, the way his question was phrased, I doubt any of you would have had a very good answer if you were in the girl's position. Would she know what kind of answer would satisfy him? Would she know what calling CPS entailed? Would she know how serious of an issue this was? I wouldn't be particularly articulate in that situation, and I doubt my composure would be helped by the fact that he's a cop asking me question like that in a demanding way. Maybe you guys would be assertive and concise, but a 17 year old me in that situation would definitely not have been.

lorene, I acknowledge that any child care program is a challenging responsibility, and that you can't make sweeping statements about all of them, but there have been documented abuses, and the general procedures and policies themselves lend themselves to injustices. Just because it didn't happen in your area doesn't mean that CPS is always trustworthy. For the record, I lived in San Diego when I worked with that program around 1998. I dare say the Alicia Wade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Wade) case was still pretty fresh in people's minds, so if anything they were erring on the other side of things when I was there.

I didn't say that the kids would definitely be abused, or that there weren't cases where the kids are much better off not being at home, I said, "You should be damn sure that the living conditions of the home are absolutely fucked up before making a decision to get the kids out." In other words, taking the kids into CPS custody should not be a first step, it should be considered when the benefits outweigh the harm.

On the other hand, you were far more closely involved with the system than I was. Of course, in your position you'd be seeing the kids who actually did need to be out of their homes, because if they were getting counseling then that's a pretty good indication that there was a documented need for them to be removed from parental custody.

[lorene]

I didn't say that the kids would definitely be abused, or that there weren't cases where the kids are much better off not being at home, I said, "You should be damn sure that the living conditions of the home are absolutely fucked up before making a decision to get the kids out." In other words, taking the kids into CPS custody should not be a first step, it should be considered when the benefits outweigh the harm.



I absolutely agree with your last statement, and FTR, I don't think there was a need to get CPS involved in this particular case.

There's been a lot of questioning about why this girl didn't feel more responsibility for her (half) siblings, but it doesn't sound like she was living with them and may not have even known them all that well. It also sounds like the mother could conceivably have left the girl without explaining anything about their tendency to wander, etc. Sure, it would be nice if the girl had been better prepared and more willing to take responsibility, but responsibility doesn't appear (from what little I know) to be something that the mom is putting a high priority on and teaching her kids.

[glee]

I'm a teacher and we are warned to avoid being alone with pupils without clearing it first.

Consider your worst-case possibility:

- you go in and search the house, eventually finding a naked teenage girl in her bedroom
- your neighbours have taken the kids to their house to keep warm
- meanwhile someone has called the police
- as the police arrive, the girl starts screaming "Intruder! Help! Rape!"
- the police draw their guns and run in

...and what do you do now?