Loud pipes save lives-my ass

[chacoguy]

Loud Pipes do not save lives; god damnit!

Loud fucking Harley assholes always claim that their bikes are loud as a safety feature. I call bullshit; the only time you can really hear them is when they're stopped or when they're going away. Otherwise, while they are loud, it's difficult to distinguish the source of the noise.
Stop being pussies and 'fess up. You have loud pipes because you are an obnoxious asshole that wants to be noticed. I'll bet your cap with a built in ponytail, your temporary tattoos, your gay ass chaps, your fake skank girl, your pot belly and graying beard save lives too. Bullshit.

[Dr. Drake]

Preach it. Painting the bikes day-glo orange instead of black would probably be more useful if saving lives were truly the goal.

[Bosstone]

Amen. I've got an uncle-in-law who rides motorcycles, and when I was telling him about my new bike, he recommended that I put loud pipes on it. Fuck that noise. (Pun intended.) Noise pollution is a pain even when it's not deliberate; when it is, it's completely assholish. I'll protect myself in other ways that don't cause hearing loss, thanks.

Interestingly, my boss gave me a motorcycle magazine with an article that says 'loud pipes save lives' is a myth. I'm definitely inclined to think it's a bad habit with a poor rationalization behind it.

ETA: Kawasaki offers their bikes in a bright neon green. It's awesome. I didn't see that the dealer had a Vulcan 900 in that color or I'd have gone for that instead of blue.

[Larry Mudd]

You have loud pipes because you are an obnoxious asshole that wants to be noticed.The most earnest argument I ever heard that "loud pipes save lives" came from a Hell's Angels associate that I had the misfortune to work with in the nineties.

He also argued, at the same sitting, that adherance to helmet laws constituted a safety hazard because (by covering the ears) helmets made it more difficult for a rider to hear vehicles approaching from behind.

I don't know how that stupid son-of-a-bitch expected hear anything with his head jammed so far up his ass.

[Bosstone]

He also argued, at the same sitting, that adherance to helmet laws constituted a safety hazard because (by covering the ears) helmets made it more difficult for a rider to hear vehicles approaching from behind.Who listens for vehicles coming up from behind anyway? The Doppler effect suggests that by the time you can hear a car approaching, it's already too damn close. It takes a tenth of a second to check your mirrors, and should be done as a matter of course in attentive driving.

All this of course ignores the stupidity of arguing for loud pipes while also arguing for needing to hear what's behind you. There's probably some dumbass rationale for those ridiculous handlebars that go up higher than your head, too.

[gonzomax]

I have had a motorcycle sneak into my blind spot, and I only knew it because I heard it. I swiveled around until I located it.

[lissener]

This kills me. I had a boyfriend in Chicago who lived down the block from a biker bar. Whenever we were out on his terrace we had to deal with these thunder-farting assholes and their obnoxious unmuffled pipes. "Loud Pipes Saves Lives" became derisive code for us for any manner of bullshit.

[Q.E.D.]

I have had a motorcycle sneak into my blind spot, and I only knew it because I heard it. I swiveled around until I located it.
There's no such thing as a "blind spot." There are areas you cannot see in your mirrors, but if you're turning or changing lanes, it's incumbent upon you to be sure it's safe to do so. That doesn't mean relying solely on your mirrors; you also have to turn to look at the areas your mirrors can't see.

[Bosstone]

I have had a motorcycle sneak into my blind spot, and I only knew it because I heard it. I swiveled around until I located it.So what? Your blind spot only matters if you're going to be changing lanes or merging, and you should be checking it then. If you're going straight and the motorcycle is going straight, it doesn't matter one bit if either of you know the other's there.

[Cluricaun]

Loud pipes dont' save a damned thing, and often times they put you right in the sights of John Q. Law, which is the last place any self respecting biker wants to be since those encounters tend to cost lots of money. Muffle that hog and let the cops chase down some other asshat and give him that ticket.

[Argent Towers]

If you ride a motorcycle and you don't want to die, it is YOUR responsibility to ride defensively all the time, as if nobody else can see you and every car is about to hit you. You can't rely on "loud pipes" or anything else to alert the "cagers" to you. They will not see you. Half of them are talking on their cell phones or listening to their music cranked all the way up anyway.

I gave up motorcycle riding because I found it to be more trouble than it was worth, with the risk greater than the reward. I was scared off by too many stories in the newspaper about guys my age getting killed by cars, even while wearing their helmets and everything. Maybe I'll pick it up again someday, who knows.

[Tenar]

Amen to all of the above. Deliberate assholish behavior on the part of both bikers and drivers causes a whole lot more motorcycle deaths than decent mufflers do. To me, loud pipes are the calling cards of idiots who feel they have carte blanche to weave in and out of traffic at high speeds while expecting others to adjust their driving to accomodate them.

And a special, heartfelt "thank you" to doper bikers who know how to ride like human beings and realize that my criticism is NOT directed at them.

[Santo Rugger]

The part that a lot of people don't realize is that Harley doesn't produce their bikes with loud pipes, and it's actually a dealer or aftermarket mod. In fact, Harley is one of the companies that pioneered exhaust systems to dampen exhaust noise. I can dig up a cite if I get called on it, but I've posted the cite to the Dope in a previous thread.I have had a motorcycle sneak into my blind spot, and I only knew it because I heard it. I swiveled around until I located it.How did he sneak into your blind spot if his pipes were so loud? :rolleyes: ETA: Kawasaki offers their bikes in a bright neon green. It's awesome. I didn't see that the dealer had a Vulcan 900 in that color or I'd have gone for that instead of blue.That's their trademark color. Honda's is red, Yamaha's is blue, and I'm sure there are others. Quite handy when trying to identify dirtbikes, especially.There's no such thing as a "blind spot." There are areas you cannot see in your mirrors, but if you're turning or changing lanes, it's incumbent upon you to be sure it's safe to do so. That doesn't mean relying solely on your mirrors; you also have to turn to look at the areas your mirrors can't see.Holy shit, Q.E.D said something I agree with in a pit thread... and one about driving, no less?! What is this world coming to? ;)

[Savannah]

Hear, HEAR!

We used to live near an intersection near where a Harley dealer was located. Those !@#$%^%^ bikers would REV up and explosively take off when the light changed, and the noise was deafening. You couldn't talk, couldn't hear the radio, couldn't talk until those sphincters on wheels passed by.

Although I'm opposed to the use of guns, I would have cheerfully taken up sniper activities against them.

[Merkwurdigliebe]

There's no such thing as a "blind spot." There are areas you cannot see in your mirrors, but if you're turning or changing lanes, it's incumbent upon you to be sure it's safe to do so. That doesn't mean relying solely on your mirrors; you also have to turn to look at the areas your mirrors can't see.
:rolleyes:

Really Q.E.D? Are you genuinely unfamiliar with the fact that the majority of people refer to blind spots as the areas that can't be seen while looking forward with the aid of mirrors?

Wikipedia seems to agree:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_spot_(automobile)

[50million]

There's no such thing as a "blind spot." There are areas you cannot see in your mirrors, but if you're turning or changing lanes, it's incumbent upon you to be sure it's safe to do so. That doesn't mean relying solely on your mirrors; you also have to turn to look at the areas your mirrors can't see.

When a dog or a kid jumps out in front of you do you first check your non-blind spot to see if it's safe to change lanes? Safe driving is the responsibility of all parties on the road, not just one. I check my mirrors and turn my head when I can. But, if you hang out in my blind spot all day and I have to swerve and brake at the same time to avoid a sudden hazard, then I'm not going to feel much remorse when you get run off the road.

[Q.E.D.]

Really Q.E.D? Are you genuinely unfamiliar with the fact that the majority of people refer to blind spots as the areas that can't be seen while looking forward with the aid of mirrors?
No, I'm completely unfamiliar with that usage which I even alluded to right there in the post you auoted. :rolleyes:

Look, retard, I put the words in "quotes" for reason. That reason being that the term is really a misnomer, common though it may be; there is nowhere around a typical vehicle that you can't see either with mirrors or by turning your head for a quick glance. That is, there's no area around your car that's truly blind. Gettit?

[Q.E.D.]

When a dog or a kid jumps out in front of you do you first check your non-blind spot to see if it's safe to change lanes?
Dogs, yes. If it's a choice between running down a dog or smashing into another car on the road, well, sorry Fido. Kids? It depends; I'll always try to swerve into an area I know is clear, but obviously that's not always possible. I generally know what's in my "blind spot" in any case since it's my habit to periodically glance around just for that reason. Result: I've only once hit someone in my blind spot, and that was admittedly my own stupidity.

[Santo Rugger]

When a dog or a kid jumps out in front of you do you first check your non-blind spot to see if it's safe to change lanes? Safe driving is the responsibility of all parties on the road, not just one. I check my mirrors and turn my head when I can. But, if you hang out in my blind spot all day and I have to swerve and brake at the same time to avoid a sudden hazard, then I'm not going to feel much remorse when you get run off the road.If you're paying attention, you should know that somebody is in your blind spot. They don't just teleport there.

I was actually checking this on my car today. On the left side, for a small car, there's about four feet of slop a driver can have and stay in my blind spot. On the right side, it's almost non existent, since I count looking at the front windshield post and seeing them in my peripheral vision as them not being in my blind spot. I estimate I spend 35% of my time behind the wheel looking at my mirrors. If somebody is in my blind spot and I don't know it, I'm doing something wrong. YMMV.

[GameHat]

More than once I've become aware of a motorcycle near me on noise alone. I think that loud bikes probably do reduce the chance of a biker getting clipped because another driver didn't realize they were there.

But they are obnoxious. Also, I know a few "lifers" who have ridden Harleys their whole life; without fail they have significant hearing loss.

Hell, even in a car at 6-12 feet away those stupid bikes hurt my ears. It's no wonder that they damage the hearing of the riders.

[Askance]

The most earnest argument I ever heard that "loud pipes save lives" came from a Hell's Angels associate that I had the misfortune to work with in the nineties.

He also argued, at the same sitting, that adherance to helmet laws constituted a safety hazard because (by covering the ears) helmets made it more difficult for a rider to hear vehicles approaching from behind.

I don't know how that stupid son-of-a-bitch expected hear anything with his head jammed so far up his ass.I had a guy put the argument to me that bikes with headlights on in the daytime were a safety hazard. Why? Because if one came at you, over a hill, with the setting sun exactly behind him, why that dazzling headlight would look just like some more Sun and instead of seeing him in silhouette you'd just run over him. Seriously.

[Mr. Goob]

My favorite thing about a wide open exhaust is how it reduces the Horsepower.

[Dead Cat]

My favorite thing about a wide open exhaust is how it reduces the Horsepower.Do you have a cite for that? It's normally the other way round.

[slaphead]

And a special, heartfelt "thank you" to doper bikers who know how to ride like human beings and realize that my criticism is NOT directed at them.
Amusingly enough, sensible bikers not only wear helmets and have sensible exhausts, they also wear earplugs to prevent hearing loss and reduce fatigue.
http://www.inter-bike.co.uk/inter-bikeshop/default.asp?categoryid=182
.

[bdgr]

Do you have a cite for that? It's normally the other way round.

completely depends on the cam overlap...there is a brief time on most cams that the intake and exhaust valve are open at the same time...which if the cam overlap is too great the intake charge gets sucked right out the pipe. Having some backpreassure prevents this. cams are tuned to exhaust backpreassure....modern bikes this is significant, but years ago things were simpler and opening up your exhaust would indeed give you a little more oomph in certain rpm ranges. It was always a tradeoff.

When you change the exhaust, it is vital you work on the whole system, the exhaust, the cam, and the fuel system.

[Dead Cat]

completely depends on the cam overlap...there is a brief time on most cams that the intake and exhaust valve are open at the same time...which if the cam overlap is too great the intake charge gets sucked right out the pipe. Having some backpreassure prevents this. cams are tuned to exhaust backpreassure....modern bikes this is significant, but years ago things were simpler and opening up your exhaust would indeed give you a little more oomph in certain rpm ranges. It was always a tradeoff.

When you change the exhaust, it is vital you work on the whole system, the exhaust, the cam, and the fuel system.Thanks, that's very interesting. Another cup of water to help douse the fiery wasteland of my ignorance.

Presumably this is not an issue on most cars as the exhaust system is so much longer? I based my orginal post on my (extremely limited) knowledge of how car exhaust systems can affect performance.

[bdgr]

We've done the hell out of this before...but once again with feeling.

yes, loud pipes make a bike more obvious to automobile drivers. I've experienced this first hand many times. Someone trying to change lanes into you and you pull the clutch in and rev the motor and they veer off. I almost got run off a bridge once and was able to get the drivers attention over her stereo because I had very loud pipes on my BSA.

most of the bikers I rode with ran open pipes because of this. Some of the yuppie biker types run it because it sounds cool. Some bikers are assholes

Wearing ear plugs while riding is dangerous and not too bright. No sensible rider I have ever known, loud pipe or no would do something like that. Listening the radio while riding in traffic is dangerous. Mirrors on motorcycles are somewhat lacking and you need all the help you can get. Loud pipes act like sonar. When a car starts to pull up beside you on ether side you hear a distinct change in exhaust note and that lets you know that some idiot is getting to close so you can take appropriate action (speed up, change lanes, etc. Riders who ride every day for decades without getting hurt are the ones who know where everyone is around them at all times and take EVERY advantage....sometimes including loud pipes.


People do take it to extremes, and people do abuse it. But don't assume everyone who runs load pipes are just trying to be an asshole.

[bdgr]

Thanks, that's very interesting. Another cup of water to help douse the fiery wasteland of my ignorance.

Presumably this is not an issue on most cars as the exhaust system is so much longer? I based my orginal post on my (extremely limited) knowledge of how car exhaust systems can affect performance.
well, again it depends on the car. the effect isn't as dramatic on cars because of the long exhaust. And modern computer controlled emissions adjust the fuel system automatically to some extent. On a 67 camero, yeah, your gonna see a boost. On a honda accord, probably a loss or only more power in a limited range.

but I was a motorcycle mechanic, cars weren't my area of expertise...There's probably someone more knowledgeable about modern cars that can tell me I'm full of it.

[bdgr]

I had a guy put the argument to me that bikes with headlights on in the daytime were a safety hazard. Why? Because if one came at you, over a hill, with the setting sun exactly behind him, why that dazzling headlight would look just like some more Sun and instead of seeing him in silhouette you'd just run over him. Seriously.
there are some problems with running headlings on motorcycles all the time.

It is harder for a car driver to judge distance of a motorcycle at certain times of the day with the headling on, because the profile of an oncomming motorcycle is so small and a card driver will tend to focus on the light only...and its hard to judge how far away a headlight is.

This is probably offset by the bike being more visable in the first place.

Motorcycle safety is a complicated issue, and there are two sides to every argument.

[Spoke]

I'm trying to figure out just how it enhances the safety of the bikers at the intersection in front of my house when they pull up to the light in groups and all rev their motors at once while they wait for the light to change.

Are they afraid someone won't be able see the grinning wad of assholes?

[slaphead]

Wearing ear plugs while riding is dangerous and not too bright. No sensible rider I have ever known, loud pipe or no would do something like that.
Ah well, YMMV. All the people I know who ride motorbikes regularly wear them - and they are the kind of people who wear full leathers even in the height of summer. This might be just a US/UK thing, but a quick google shows lots of US articles recommending earplug use as well.

[svrider]

While I don't ride cruisers I do have aftermarked bolt-ons on my Suzuki (LeoVince SBK Carbon). They are louder than the original ones but still good enough that I can ride at the track without db-killer inserts. I know this is totally unscientific so take it as personal experience, but I have had less cars pull out in front of me from sideroads with the aftermarked cans as opposed to the original and very quiet ones.

I will say though that I agree lots of Harley and other cruiser riders over do it. My neighbour has a Harley that doesn't seem to do more than roll out to the curb where his friends come by and they all sit and idle and rev'it together. Even with windows and doors closed, it's so loud that I can't hear my tv.

[svrider]

Ohh earplugs bdgr, I always wear them, not doing so is a fast road to tinnitus. Not because of the exhaust noise, but because of wind noise. You can still easily hear cars and ambulances and at the same time I find that I'm more concentrated and less fatigued when I don't have an ear full of high pitched wind noise while I ride.

And yes, I always wear full leathers and a back protector, even in the middle of summer :)

[Bayard]

yes, loud pipes make a bike more obvious to automobile drivers. I've experienced this first hand many times. Someone trying to change lanes into you and you pull the clutch in and rev the motor and they veer off. I almost got run off a bridge once and was able to get the drivers attention over her stereo because I had very loud pipes on my BSA
I do that with a horn. I just googled, and it appears that you can buy motorcycle horns that go up to nearly 140 dB.

[Richard Pearse]

:rolleyes:

Really Q.E.D? Are you genuinely unfamiliar with the fact that the majority of people refer to blind spots as the areas that can't be seen while looking forward with the aid of mirrors?

What many people don't seem to realise is that you can set up your mirrors so you don't have any rear blind spots. Your side mirrors should be looking at the lanes to the left rear and right rear of you, not directly behind you. You already have a centre rearview mirror directed behind you. If you set your side mirrors so you can just see the side of your car then you'll find your blind spots have either gone completely or at least been minimised.

[Mellivora capensis]

I have had a motorcycle sneak into my blind spot, and I only knew it because I heard it. I swiveled around until I located it.

I have had a motorcycle sneak into my G-spot, and I only knew it because I.........holeeeeeeehotdammmmmmmmmm........felt it. I swiveled around, and around, and around........until I........holeeeeeeeehotdammmmmmmgawdallfuckinmighty........

[An Arky]

I don't necessarily begrudge motorcyclists' efforts not to be run over, and I know this is anecdotal, but a few months ago, we were on a long car trip, and my 3 yo daughter was cranky and letting making everybody else's live miserable. Luckily, she fell asleep. There was peace in the valley, so to speak. Then, 3 bikes with extremely loud mufflers passed us and woke her up, triggering another couple of hours of hell for me and the rest of my family. I wanted to run over them, then back up and do it again, just to make sure. Fuckers.

[Santo Rugger]

Wearing ear plugs while riding is dangerous and not too bright. No sensible rider I have ever known, loud pipe or no would do something like that. Sorry, buddy, but you're a fucking moron. Earplugs cut out wind noise, and make other vehicles easier to hear, not harder. Maybe you should try it sometime? Otherwise, you're not going to be able to hear shit in 20 years, even sans earplugs.

[buttonjockey308]

The loud-pipes contingent, even as adequately represented by bdgr, is consistently shot down by actual data:

77% of motorcycle accident hazards come from in front of the rider, while only 3% approach from the rear.

A summary here (http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html)


Even the American Motorcyclist Association has taken a position against loud pipes (http://www.amadirectlink.com/legisltn/positions/noise.asp)

I now live 18 floors above downtown Chicago, and the only things I can hear with any regularity through the 2.75" of glass and structural steel that keep the city out of my living room is the siren of the ambulance that's pulling out of the firehouse a block away, the fireworks at Navy Pier, and some asshole with a noisy hog on Lake Shore Drive.

I've ridden on and off for a long time and of the bikes I've had, none have had loud pipes, and I'm still around. Defensive riding, paying attention to your surroundings and the task at hand and having a bike that people can see is going to save your life a dozen times each before loud pipes do once.

I know plenty of guys who overpay for the brand and mod the exhaust so that no matter what time of the day or night it is, you always hear them thundering through the neighborhood. It's unnecessary nonsense.

[buttonjockey308]

Sorry, buddy, but you're a fucking moron. Earplugs cut out wind noise, and make other vehicles easier to hear, not harder. Maybe you should try it sometime? Otherwise, you're not going to be able to hear shit in 20 years, even sans earplugs.

Amen. Six months back into it I started having hearing trouble, I plugged the ears and viola! All better. Further, the important things (car horns, sirens etc) all happen at a higher place on the dB scale than most earplugs block anyway. You'll hear em, trust me.

[NurseCarmen]

I would be careful. You know the kinda reputation those Harley riders have.
Lawyers and doctors. The whole lot of them.

[Bosstone]

Amen. Six months back into it I started having hearing trouble, I plugged the ears and viola! All better. Further, the important things (car horns, sirens etc) all happen at a higher place on the dB scale than most earplugs block anyway. You'll hear em, trust me.When I was getting kitted out for riding two months ago, I hadn't even considered earplugs. Based on this thread, I plan to pick some up on the way home today.

[Edward The Head]

What many people don't seem to realise is that you can set up your mirrors so you don't have any rear blind spots. Your side mirrors should be looking at the lanes to the left rear and right rear of you, not directly behind you. You already have a centre rearview mirror directed behind you. If you set your side mirrors so you can just see the side of your car then you'll find your blind spots have either gone completely or at least been minimised.

That may work ok for cars but bikes can fit into those little areas mirrors will miss. One must always turn their head to make sure you haven't missed something. Even bikers will miss other bikes. I almost learned this lesson the hard way when I didn't check my mirrors and thought no one was there and damn near creamed another biker. As I've been told before

Mirrors tell us what we can't do, not what we can do.

As for loud pipes they piss me off as well. They, along with the fucking idiots who squeeze in and out of traffic make it worse for people like me who obey the fucking law and keep up with traffic. Half the driving public hates motorcyclists because of them, the other half totally ignores us. The majority of motorcyclists are normal non asshole people but we get tainted by the rest of the stupid fuckers.

[Santo Rugger]

Amen. Six months back into it I started having hearing trouble, I plugged the ears and viola! All better. Further, the important things (car horns, sirens etc) all happen at a higher place on the dB scale than most earplugs block anyway. You'll hear em, trust me.They're a higher dB, and also a higher frequency, which earplugs have a harder time blocking.

I also like them because you can hear your own engine when you're going faster than 35mph, instead of just the wind noise.When I was getting kitted out for riding two months ago, I hadn't even considered earplugs. Based on this thread, I plan to pick some up on the way home today.You'll have an epiphany, I can all but promise you.

I've been thinking about getting some of these, (http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0037460227874a.shtml) taking the silicon off my earphones, and making a hybrid. If I do it this weekend, I"ll post back to this thread and let you guys know how it went.

[Richard Pearse]

That may work ok for cars but bikes can fit into those little areas mirrors will miss. One must always turn their head to make sure you haven't missed something. Even bikers will miss other bikes. I almost learned this lesson the hard way when I didn't check my mirrors and thought no one was there and damn near creamed another biker. As I've been told before

The point is that it's possible to set up your mirrors so there are no "little areas mirrors will miss", most people just don't know how to. I totally agree that this is no substitute for an over the shoulder check though.

The "blind spot" I'm most weary of is the one created by the front windshield pillars. A car or a motorcycle can easily hide behind those pillars particularly if you're gradually turning at a T junction as you check for traffic.

[Edward The Head]

The point is that it's possible to set up your mirrors so there are no "little areas mirrors will miss", most people just don't know how to. I totally agree that this is no substitute for an over the shoulder check though.


No, there are little areas that you will miss unless you have huge mirrors. I've had my mirrors set up this way for years and still sometimes miss bikers. While cars can come through some bikes are so thin that it is possible to totally miss them. Even the car talk (http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/mirrors/CarTalkMirrors.pdf) (pdf) guys show there is some small blind spots. While they maybe small it is possible for bikers to fit into them.

[Bosstone]

I think the blind spot discussion is overlooking a simpler point. Unless you're in bumper-to-bumper traffic, a good motorcycle rider shouldn't BE in your blind spot anyway! It's not hard to understand where the major blind spots are on a car, and it doesn't take much effort to position oneself out of them. A rider should damn well be aware they're on a little vehicle and not a big honkin' Hummer.

The only person that can keep a motorcycle rider safe is the rider, by being aware of their surroundings and reacting appropriately. Loud pipes defer this responsibility by banking on the notion that other drivers will hear and behave accordingly. That's not safe riding, and that's why accidents happen.

Obviously I'm not saying drivers have carte blanche to run over idiot riders. But their safety is their responsibility.

[Richard Pearse]

Even the car talk (http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/mirrors/CarTalkMirrors.pdf) (pdf) guys show there is some small blind spots. While they maybe small it is possible for bikers to fit into them.The blind spots as shown in the PDF are far too small to hide a motorcycle, however I accept that not all vehicles can be setup with no significant blind spots.

Bosstone, agreed. It is the responsibility of a driver to know where their blind spots are and check them, it is also the equal responsibility of other drivers and riders to know where other vehicle's blind spots are and actively avoid being in them.

[Don't fight the hypothetical]

I have had a motorcycle sneak into my blind spot, and I only knew it because I heard it. I swiveled around until I located it.
If you are arguing that this makes the whole effect worthwhile, it makes about as much sense as abolishing seatbelts because one person drowned while wearing them.

[Wheeljack]

I've always been of the opinion that the problem is not that loud pipes don't save lives, it's that they save the lives of the kind of annoying assholes who don't mind disturbing (among other things) the sleep of literally HUNDREDS of people who they pass by on their way to the 7-11 at two in the morning; which isn't to say that I think they should all go die under the wheels of a bus, but rather that it's a bit like insisting that my assistant's obnoxious gong-banging is the only thing keeping away the horseflies while I grease up our tandem unicycle in the middle of the suburbs, because Lord knows there aren't any other non-horsefly prone hobbies/means of transportation for us to choose from.

[Bosstone]

All the sound in the world can't help you if other people can't see you. Loud pipes might alert someone to your presence, but if you're sitting right where they have a hard time seeing you, it doesn't help anything.

The trade-off just isn't worth it. Loud pipes occasionally help get you noticed in situations where visibility alone doesn't cut it, but at the cost of constantly causing an ear-shattering noise. You'd probably get as much of an increase in presence wearing reflective or bright clothing (I have a reflective LED light on the back of my helmet) as well as riding more sensibly, and it wouldn't disturb folks who aren't in your immediate riding space.

(Granted, I understand folks ride for fun, not to be sensible, but in my so-far-limited experience the motorcycle is fun enough even when you are riding defensively.)

[gonzomax]

So what? Your blind spot only matters if you're going to be changing lanes or merging, and you should be checking it then. If you're going straight and the motorcycle is going straight, it doesn't matter one bit if either of you know the other's there.
Thats exactly what I was going to do. Because I heard him I waited until I located him. Bikers should know better than to ride in blind spots but we all mess up a little now and then.

[Q.E.D.]

Thats exactly what I was going to do. Because I heard him I waited until I located him. Bikers should know better than to ride in blind spots but we all mess up a little now and then.
You've missed the point entirely. Regardless of whether he's riding your blind spot or not, YOU are responsible for ensuring the way is clear when changing lanes, merging or turning. You should look around and check your blind spots whether or not you hear someone there.

[Bosstone]

Coming back from lunch, I was driving alongside a big, old truck with an extraordinarily loud exhaust pipe that roared unpleasantly every time the driver gunned the engine.

Sure enough, there was a Harley-Davidson badge on the side of the truck.

I'm willing to accept not all HD zealots are pricks, but the ones I see sure don't do anything to defuse the stereotype.

[Dinsdale]

Of course most cars have blind spots, either they way they and their mirrors are configured or the way their users use them. Hell, I remember the first time I was surprised by a car on a cross street at a 4-way stop, because if timed just right a crossing car will be obscured by my rear-view mirror. But of course that is no insurmountable problem - all I have to do is make sure the mirror isn't obscuring a crossing car. Same way I check my mirrors AND shoulder check EVERY time I change lanes, NEVER rely on mirrors to back up, etc.

Re: loud bikes, it always seems to me that they should be liable to citations for violating noise ordinances. Same way that I believe many overloud car stereos can lead to a ticket. I'd think police departments would look to that as a source of revenue.

I can't think of anything I do that is as loud as many of the motorcycles I hear. Probably operating a circular saw or something. But I do that only rarely, and usually inside of my house - not down some strangers' street in the middle of the night. Just takes different types, I guess - and one type has absolutely zero qualms about being an asshole to countless strangers on a regular basis. It would bother me not a bit if they died.

[Santo Rugger]

... NEVER rely on mirrors to back up, etc.I get a lot more information from my mirrors backing up than I would from turning around and looking. When I was learning to back up a trailer, the guy I worked with wouldn't even let me turn around, he said it was 'cheating'. In a pickup truck with no trailer, I'll still turn around, because I get a wider field of view, but there's no reason one can't rely on mirrors alone when backing up.

[Dinsdale]

I get a lot more information from my mirrors backing up than I would from turning around and looking. When I was learning to back up a trailer ...

I must not have read the thread carefully enough, because I did not realize we were talking about trailers. I think the last time I pulled a trailer was 20 years ago.

Many people seem to feel it is adequate to rely on mirrors along when backing a car/van out of a parking space into traffic. :rolleyes:

[Lanzy]

I ride and apparently do a lot of really bad things. I have super quiet mufflers, less noise than any bike I've ever ridden. I do have a really loud horn if I need to get your attention. I wear ear buds, connected to an MP3 player/FM radio/Phone and wireless intercom to talk to my passernger. The player does cut off or lowers vol when I get a call or when the rider in back (wife) talks to me. My mirrors are below the handlebars and are very large compared to most I've seen but I pay real close atttention to where I am in relation to where YOUR blind spots might be. But since I'm accident free for almost 30 years, maybe I'll just keep doing what I do.

[RogueRacer]

Amen to all of the above. Deliberate assholish behavior on the part of both bikers and drivers causes a whole lot more motorcycle deaths than decent mufflers do. To me, loud pipes are the calling cards of idiots who feel they have carte blanche to weave in and out of traffic at high speeds while expecting others to adjust their driving to accomodate them.Not that I disagree with you on assholishness causing biker deaths, but I think you're mixing up stereotypes here. From my experience, the riders zipping in and out of lanes are generally on crotch rockets. While they may also have loud pipes, the OP seemed to be calling out Harley riders. I just don't see that much out of them.

For the record, I do have a Harley. It has stock pipes. In most situations, it's not all that loud. Also if it's after about 8:00pm, I'm generally very light on the throttle when taking off to keep it as quiet as possible. I've never had a complaint from a neighbor. I have had self-absorbed dickweeds in cars do plenty of dumb shit around me though to the point where I have considered louder pipes.

[bdgr]

Ohh earplugs bdgr, I always wear them, not doing so is a fast road to tinnitus. Not because of the exhaust noise, but because of wind noise. You can still easily hear cars and ambulances and at the same time I find that I'm more concentrated and less fatigued when I don't have an ear full of high pitched wind noise while I ride.

And yes, I always wear full leathers and a back protector, even in the middle of summer :)
Strange...after 25 years of riding no Tinnitus. but I can hear cars around me.

There is plenty of mesh armor you can wear in summer now. It's a better choice.

[bdgr]

I do that with a horn. I just googled, and it appears that you can buy motorcycle horns that go up to nearly 140 dB.
Yeah, but you cant drive down the road blasting a horn all day. The cops frown on that. It just makes cars aware of you.

[bdgr]

Sorry, buddy, but you're a fucking moron. Earplugs cut out wind noise, and make other vehicles easier to hear, not harder. Maybe you should try it sometime? Otherwise, you're not going to be able to hear shit in 20 years, even sans earplugs.

Did I insult you? Yeah it's the pit, but that doesnt mean you can't show some self control.

No, it doesn't make cars easier to hear. Yes I have tried it. And no you don't go deaf from ridding motorcycles. I've been riding for over 25 years, I know people who have been riding for 50. None of us are deaf....seriously. Never met one person who is deaf from riding a motorcycle. ever.

[bdgr]

The loud-pipes contingent, even as adequately represented by bdgr, is consistently shot down by actual data:

.
Not really. The bad motorcycle accidents I've seen friends and customers get into (one of them fatal) involved a car turning in front of the bike. That does fit your stats, and thats how it usually happens. And the excuse the car drive always gives is that they didn't know the bike was even there. With loud pipes you know a bike is there blocks away. People look for the source of the loud noise.

THE AMA is more concerned with public image than anything else and always has been. I don't really pay much attention to them.

[Bosstone]

With loud pipes you know a bike is there blocks away.I guess it depends on whether or not you think this is a bad thing.

Hell, even ambulances and fire trucks drive me nuts, because I can hear them but I can't see them and I don't know where the hell they are. And, again, because of the Doppler effect, if they're coming up behind you the sound waves don't get to you very much earlier than the vehicle itself does. I once heard a fire truck approaching, and when I looked in my rear view to see where it was it was less than a car length behind me.

In any case, pipes that are loud enough to be heard blocks away are LOUD when they're in the next lane over. Incomparably, ear-shatteringly, unnervingly, undesirably LOUD. The few situations where it might be helpful do not justify the 95% of the time you're just making a god damned racket. Practice better riding to deal with that 5%; it ain't hard to put yourself so the cars around you can see you. If you have to ride in their blind spot, you damn well better be aware they may turn in front of you.

[Q.E.D.]

And no you don't go deaf from ridding motorcycles. I've been riding for over 25 years, I know people who have been riding for 50. None of us are deaf....seriously. Never met one person who is deaf from riding a motorcycle. ever.
You've been extremely lucky (http://news.ufl.edu/2004/09/01/motorcycle-noise/):
In an informal survey of 33 motorcycles, UF audiologists at the College of Public Health and Health Professions have found nearly half produced sounds above 100 decibels when throttled up — equivalent in intensity to a loud rock concert or a chainsaw....

The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health cautions that exposure to noise at 100 decibels is safe for only 15 minutes. Permanent hearing loss can occur with prolonged exposure to any noise measuring 85 decibels or above.

“Almost all of the motorcycles we tested reached action-level noise, which in the workplace would require ear protection,” said Joy Colle, one of the study’s researchers. “The loudest bike we tested measured 119 decibels with the engine revved, and the recommended exposure time at that level is only 11 seconds.

Emphasis added.

[DoctorJ]

You could make up some bumper stickers that say "LOUD PIPES MAKE MY BALLS FEEL BIG" and apply them to offending bikes.

[bdgr]

I guess it depends on whether or not you think this is a bad thing.

Hell, even ambulances and fire trucks drive me nuts, because I can hear them but I can't see them and I don't know where the hell they are. And, again, because of the Doppler effect, if they're coming up behind you the sound waves don't get to you very much earlier than the vehicle itself does. I once heard a fire truck approaching, and when I looked in my rear view to see where it was it was less than a car length behind me.

In any case, pipes that are loud enough to be heard blocks away are LOUD when they're in the next lane over. Incomparably, ear-shatteringly, unnervingly, undesirably LOUD. The few situations where it might be helpful do not justify the 95% of the time you're just making a god damned racket. Practice better riding to deal with that 5%; it ain't hard to put yourself so the cars around you can see you; if you're riding in their blind spot, you damn well better be aware they may turn in front of you.
Well, that is a subject of debate. Here's a few real world examples of what I'm talking about.

I had just finished doing a carb job on a customers bike in Utah and he was driving to work. it was stock Suzuki 4 cyl, with stock exhaust and car driver turned in front of him approaching from the opposite direction. He left a wife and 4 kids. The driver said he didn't hear or see the motorcycle. Now if he had a loud exhaust system the auto driver would have heard him, and would have looked...hopefully. We're not talking about something fool proof here but something increase the odds for the rider.

another mechanic friend of mine did a long stint in the hospital when a lady without insurance pulled off of a side street in front of him. he was riding a honda sport bike he was road testing for a customer. The lady pulled all the way out in front of him before she noticed there was a motorcycle even there, then stopped in a panic right in front of him. Her excuse was she didn't even know he was there. Again, load pipes would have made her look.

And I've know a lot of other nearly identical situations with friends and customers.

as for if its a good thing or not? Well, I think it is. it isn't the motorcycle coming up from behind, like was pointed out above. most bad motorcycle accidents are because of people who are looking right at the bike head on and still dont see it.

[Santo Rugger]

Did I insult you? Yeah it's the pit, but that doesnt mean you can't show some self control.I tend to get a bit on edge when people authoritatively spout so much incorrect information in a single post. And besides, you're of the group that is being pitted. :p Don't take it personal. Perhaps I should have said, "This statement is fucking moronic."I must not have read the thread carefully enough, because I did not realize we were talking about trailers. I think the last time I pulled a trailer was 20 years ago.

Many people seem to feel it is adequate to rely on mirrors along when backing a car/van out of a parking space into traffic. :rolleyes:I mentioned the trailers as an aside, but I was imagining backing into the parking space.
And, again, because of the Doppler effect, if they're coming up behind you the sound waves don't get to you very much earlier than the vehicle itself does.That's not what the Doppler effect describes at all. Sound travels at about 750 miles an hour through air. If a bike is going, say, 50 miles an hour, the sound is still going 700 miles an hour faster than the biker. The Doppler effect describes the frequency shift, so the compressed waves will have a higher frequency as they approach you, but their speed will still be at least 600 miles an hour faster than the bike. Similarly, the waves will be longer as the object travels away from you, giving a lower frequency sound.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

[Bosstone]

Fair enough, I'll shut up about it. :o

[bdgr]

You've been extremely lucky (http://news.ufl.edu/2004/09/01/motorcycle-noise/):


Emphasis added.
No, it's not luck, its just that the noise levels that high don't generally occur at the riders position but occur behind the bike. You can still hear it mind you, but those ear shattering engine noises aren't as loud where the rider is sitting. Source: my DB meter.

Even my BWM R80 would have been uncomfortably loud if you put your ear right behind the exhaust....and that was one quiet bike when Riding.

[bdgr]

I tend to get a bit on edge when people authoritatively spout so much incorrect information in a single post.

Except it wasn't incorrect.

And besides, you're of the group that is being pitted. :p

I'm not, in fact. I don't currently ride a motorcycle with loud pipes. I'm speaking to the issue at hand.

Don't take it personal.

I don't, it just speaks volumes about your lack of character and real argument.


Perhaps I should have said, "This statement is fucking moronic.

You should have. It would have been incorrect, but it would definately been a more civil approach.

[Bosstone]

Well, that is a subject of debate. Here's a few real world examples of what I'm talking about.The two anecdotes you provide are ifs. "Now if he had a loud exhaust system the auto driver would have heard him." That's nothing but speculation. If he had loud pipes, the driver might still not have noticed. He was inattentive enough not to see the bike, he may well have been inattentive enough not to hear it either.

When I'm riding -- or hell, just driving down the road in my car -- I'm watching for hazards. I see a car in the left turn lane coming down the opposite direction, I'm eyeballing it until I've passed it. I don't know if he's going to swing out in front of me or not, so I want to be ready if he does.

Again, pipes defer the responsibility of your safety onto other people. I've ridden as if I were invisible ever since I got my first car, and I've never gotten in an accident that I caused. (Even the ones I got into were still minor fender benders.) When you act as if you're invisible, then any time someone does see you is simply a bonus and not something you have to count on. Sure, there's times when something happens that you can't avoid, but like as not you couldn't avoid it in a car either.

ETA: Okay, that's not entirely true. Once I made a move thinking an oncoming car could see me. We missed each other by inches. I don't do that any more.

[Q.E.D.]

No, it's not luck, its just that the noise levels that high don't generally occur at the riders position but occur behind the bike. You can still hear it mind you, but those ear shattering engine noises aren't as loud where the rider is sitting. Source: my DB meter.
Um, your dB meter sucks or you don't know how to use it. Also, read the rest of my cite which I didn't quote:
In the UF survey, noise levels were tested at riders’ ear levels from stationary motorcycles when idle and throttled up. Formal research should include measurement of noise levels when the motorcycles are driven at cruising speeds to account for the effects of wind noise, Colle said.

[Muffin]

Loud pipes are very useful in identifying which way and when the car should swerve when tryng to take out the asshole-flute.

[bdgr]

The two anecdotes you provide are ifs. "Now if he had a loud exhaust system the auto driver would have heard him." That's nothing but speculation. If he had loud pipes, the driver might still not have noticed. He was inattentive enough not to see the bike, he may well have been inattentive enough not to hear it either.

Sure. Like I said, it's not a foolproof cure, just something to increase the odds in the riders favor.

When I'm riding -- or hell, just driving down the road in my car -- I'm watching for hazards. I see a car in the left turn lane coming down the opposite direction, I'm eyeballing it until I've passed it. I don't know if he's going to swing out in front of me or not, so I want to be ready if he does.

Absolutely. I always assume the other guy doesn't see me. I'm the most paranoid rider in the world, and the only times I've ever been hit it's been stopped at a light and hit from behind..(it's happened twice). Neither time loud pipes would have made a difference. All I'm saying is that it gives you an added edge. in some situations. It's not a excuse for poor riding.

[bdgr]

Um, your dB meter sucks or you don't know how to use it. Also, read the rest of my cite which I didn't quote:

Or I was doing a test on a different bike than they were. I do know how to use a DB meter, and it was functioning properly.

[Bosstone]

All I'm saying is that it gives you an added edge. in some situations. It's not a excuse for poor riding.Fair enough. Now: is that added edge worth waking up a block's worth of neighborhood at night, or disrupting them during the day? Is it worth putting adjacent drivers' and your own hearing at risk? You may not have lost yours, but I don't think the probability is debatable, especially given QED's link.

[Q.E.D.]

Or I was doing a test on a different bike than they were. I do know how to use a DB meter, and it was functioning properly.
Ah, a unity sample size. How scientific.

[bdgr]

Fair enough. Now: is that added edge worth waking up a block's worth of neighborhood at night, or disrupting them during the day?

I think that as long as you don't go out of your way...like really reving the bike up going through a neighborhood at night...sure, I do.


Is it worth putting adjacent drivers' and your own hearing at risk?

I don't agree that this is the case.
[/quote]
You may not have lost yours, but I don't think the probability is debatable, especially given QED's link.[/QUOTE]
If you are running a bike that is putting out 120 db at the rider position...No, thats not a good idea at all. But most bikes don't do that. My harley didn't, and it was fairly loud...when I had it. My guzzi may have, and I put quieter exhaust on it because it was too loud.

[bdgr]

Ah, a unity sample size. How scientific.
well...I had a fairly loud harley, I took a reading, and it was not nearly that high of a DB reading...not high enough to be a risk (it's been a few years, I don't remember the exact specs but not so loud as to require hearing protection.). Every other bike I've riden since then has been quieter by a good bit(my first guzzi was louder, but that was before I got the meter).

So, No, we're not talking a scientific sampling here but enough to know that if your cite is saying every bike is that loud they are testing the wrong kinds of bikes.

[Q.E.D.]

So, No, we're not talking a scientific sampling here but enough to know that if your cite is saying every bike is that loud they are testing the wrong kinds of bikes.
Look, I know you can read, so you know perfectly well that it doesn't say that.

[bdgr]

Like I said...we've done this one before, and it's something that people get emotional about and besides....it's really really really fun to imagine that the reason someone is doing something is because they are an asshole and/or stupid and not because they honestly think it's the best thing to do. Demonizing people who dissagree with you is not fighting ignorance, even if you are right.

but reality is that a lot of people (most in my experiance) that run loud pipes do so so that they can feel safer....not because they are trying to annoy people or compensate for something. The last few bikes I've owned have been european and pretty stock and I've found that I have more people who don't know I'm there because of it. Luckily, I ride taking that into account and so I still have all my parts.

[bdgr]

Look, I know you can read, so you know perfectly well that it doesn't say that.

Your post said

In an informal survey of 33 motorcycles, UF audiologists at the College of Public Health and Health Professions have found nearly half produced sounds above 100 decibels when throttled up — equivalent in intensity to a loud rock concert or a chainsaw....

You implied that I've been lucky riding my muffled bmw motorcycle and not loosing hearing because of it.

I didn't bother to read the rest of the cite you quoted because the part you quoted was nonsense.

If you meant something different, you didn't say so.

[Q.E.D.]

You implied that I've been lucky riding my muffled bmw motorcycle and not loosing hearing because of it.
Actually, what you said was:
I've been riding for over 25 years, I know people who have been riding for 50. None of us are deaf....seriously. Never met one person who is deaf from riding a motorcycle. ever.
See where I quoted that earlier? The "you've been lucky" remark applies to that, too.
I didn't bother to read the rest of the cite you quoted because the part you quoted was nonsense.
Ok, maybe I was wrong about you. Evidently, you can't read, after all. Which part did you think was nonsense, so that I might explain it to you?

[Bosstone]

but reality is that a lot of people (most in my experiance) that run loud pipes do so so that they can feel safer....not because they are trying to annoy people or compensate for something.I can accept that. Really, I can. I just don't agree that a perception of safety that may or may not exist shouldn't hold up to disturbing the peace. Sure, the people who put loud pipes on their bike may do it with good intentions...but when they're told it disrupts and annoys people, then they get defensive and their pipes become a point of pride in retaliation.

I mean, if you can deal with being near-universally hated, there's little convincing to be done.

[bdgr]

Actually, what you said was:

See, we were talking about wind noise there. Try to keep up with the conversation.
Your post was about engine noise. but even still, your quote implied that most motorcyles are dangerously loud. Thats not the case.

See where I quoted that earlier? The "you've been lucky" remark applies to that, too.

Ok, maybe I was wrong about you. Evidently, you can't read, after all. Which part did you think was nonsense, so that I might explain it to you?
[/quote]
Actually, I can read, and apparently you're running out of rope because you have to try insults to make your point. you posted a link to an article with a quote from it indicating tha tmost motorcycles are dangerously loud.

Since I worked on, ridden and been around thousands of motorcycles that do rise the noise levels as indicated in your quote, I didn't need to read further. It showed me the article you linked to was flawed and I do not need to waste my time with it.

if someone posts an article with a quote saying that drinking coffee will cause all your hair to fall out I don't need to read that article. I drink coffee, I know a lot of people who do and have lots of hair. I have considerable experiance in the coffee industry. and a good deal of expertese in coffee. I can say it's nonsense without having to bother with it.

[bdgr]

I can accept that. Really, I can. I just don't agree that a perception of safety that may or may not exist shouldn't hold up to disturbing the peace.

I think there's a line to be drawn there. Some are too loud, I agree.

I'm mainly arguing towards intention and to some degree, effect.

[Q.E.D.]

See, we were talking about wind noise there. Try to keep up with the conversation.
No, you weren't.
Your post was about engine noise. but even still, your quote implied that most motorcyles are dangerously loud. Thats not the case.
No. What the article said was that half of the 30 randomly-selected bikes the study evaluated, almost half (that's not "most" no matter how much you stretch the definition) had a decibel reading well above the level where the potential for cumulative hearing loss from chronic exposure exists. Just because you have not experienced such any such hearing loss (or have you--in all likelihood, you don't know) doesn't mean that's the general case for the average rider. You analogy is stupid, because there exists no scientific evidence that that coffee causes hair loss; however, we have copious evidence that chronic exposure to sounds above 85 dB can lead to progressive, permanent hearing loss. We also now have at least some (and reasonable people may disagree as to the reliability) that a significant number of street bikes may expose riders to such levels. You may feel free to ignore this information, but pretending it's "nonsense" is simple willful ignorance.

[bdgr]

No, you weren't.


Yes...We were. We talking about ear plugs being used on normal motorcycles to combat wind noise. The quote of mine that you took was talking about that.


No. What the article said was that half of the 30 randomly-selected bikes the study evaluated, almost half (that's not "most" no matter how much you stretch the definition) had a decibel reading well above the level where the potential for cumulative hearing loss from chronic exposure exists.

You said I was lucky because this study said ...ok..a large amount were above safe levels. I responsded that I knew what safe levels sounded like because I had done my own tests on my own bike. the bikes I have been around have not been that loud at the rider position, with few exceptions.


Just because you have not experienced such any such hearing loss (or have you--in all likelihood, you don't know)

Sure I do, I had my hearing tested...Turned out I was having an ear wax build up problem.

doesn't mean that's the general case for the average rider.

You analogy is stupid,

So is your cite

because there exists no scientific evidence that that coffee causes hair loss;
however, we have copious evidence that chronic exposure to sounds above 85 dB can lead to progressive, permanent hearing loss. We also now have at least some (and reasonable people may disagree as to the reliability) that a significant number of street bikes may expose riders to such levels.

No, we have your cite that shows that there exist some bikes at this levels. Not that I or my friends or customers who have not experianced hearing oss from riding are of that level (which you implied, no matter how much you try to change that)

You may feel free to ignore this information, but pretending it's "nonsense" is simple willful ignorance.

Nope. it doesn't. I means you grabbed some information that you thought said something that it didn't, and now are all bent out of shape because I didn't except it so you are resorting to insults.

[Q.E.D.]

We talking about ear plugs being used on normal motorcycles to combat wind noise. The quote of mine that you took was talking about that.
No one made the claim that wind noise causes hearing loss, so your protestation is baseless. All you said was you hadn't gone deaf from riding, full stop. Nothing about wind noise.
I had done my own tests on my own bike. the bikes I have been around have not been that loud at the rider position, with few exceptions.
How do you know? You said you've only taken a reading on your own bike.
Sure I do, I had my hearing tested...Turned out I was having an ear wax build up problem.
Convenient.
So is your cite [stupid]
Saying it doesn't make it so. Not even if you keep saying it.
No, we have your cite that shows that there exist some bikes at this levels. Not that I or my friends or customers who have not experianced hearing oss from riding are of that level (which you implied, no matter how much you try to change that)
Nor did I claim otherwise. You seem to not understand the principle of random sampling. In any case, even if you are certain you're experience no significant hearing loss as a result of riding loud bikes, you can't possible know if all the other bikers you know have. Claiming you do only makes you a liar.
Nope. it doesn't. I means you grabbed some information that you thought said something that it didn't, and now are all bent out of shape because I didn't except it so you are resorting to insults.
Huh? It says exactly what I think it says. It will continue to do so despite your assertion to the contrary.

[gonzomax]

The part that a lot of people don't realize is that Harley doesn't produce their bikes with loud pipes, and it's actually a dealer or aftermarket mod. In fact, Harley is one of the companies that pioneered exhaust systems to dampen exhaust noise. I can dig up a cite if I get called on it, but I've posted the cite to the Dope in a previous thread.How did he sneak into your blind spot if his pipes were so loud? :rolleyes: That's their trademark color. Honda's is red, Yamaha's is blue, and I'm sure there are others. Quite handy when trying to identify dirtbikes, especially.Holy shit, Q.E.D said something I agree with in a pit thread... and one about driving, no less?! What is this world coming to? ;)
I only knew he was there because I heard him. Sometimes a lot of traffic will cause you to concentrate on other things. If people infront slow down for no apparent reason ,you have to pay a lot of attention to them. At least i do.

[Q.E.D.]

I only knew he was there because I heard him.
Let's say you hadn't heard him. What would have happened?

[bdgr]

No one made the claim that wind noise causes hearing loss, so your protestation is baseless. All you said was you hadn't gone deaf from riding, full stop. Nothing about wind noise.

scroll up and read a bit. there was a conversation about it.


How do you know? You said you've only taken a reading on your own bike.

As I explained, I took a reading on my bike, and know what it sounded like. I've ridden and worked on quite a few since then. they were not as loud. seriously, you critize my reading skills?

Convenient.

Actually it wasn't. Ever had them scrape your ears out and use a water jet thing? It's unpleasant really.


Saying it doesn't make it so. Not even if you keep saying it.

Right back at you.


Nor did I claim otherwise. You seem to not understand the principle of random sampling.

I do, in fact, do you? Do you understand that 30 bikes or so is a small sample?


In any case, even if you are certain you're experience no significant hearing loss as a result of riding loud bikes,

I didn't say that. I said I experianced no hearling loss as a result of riding bikes period. Most of them are not loud.



you can't possible know if all the other bikers you know have. Claiming you do only makes you a liar.

If the bikers I know can hear a conversation just fine, then it's a reasonable assumption.

Huh? It says exactly what I think it says. It will continue to do so despite your assertion to the contrary.

It will in your mind at least.

[bdgr]

Ohh earplugs bdgr, I always wear them, not doing so is a fast road to tinnitus. Not because of the exhaust noise, but because of wind noise.:)
For QED, so he wont have to strain himself.

This is what lead up to my coment about not going deaf. You can read that, I'm sure.

[Q.E.D.]

As I explained, I took a reading on my bike, and know what it sounded like. I've ridden and worked on quite a few since then. they were not as loud. seriously, you critize my reading skills?
No, but your understanding of human sensory perception is lacking. Your ears are no substitute for a meter and are simply not capable of making the kinds of accurate comparisons you claim you are.
If the bikers I know can hear a conversation just fine, then it's a reasonable assumption.
No, it isn't. Subjective impressions are never a basis for factual assertions. That's why science doesn't rely on them.

Also, tinnitus isn't deafness. I infer your comment, which was made in the larger context of a discussion of loud pipes, was meant as a blanket statement that bike riding doesn't lead to deafness or hearing loss, whether from wind noise or any other cause. Funny you didn't object that you really meant wind noise until you painted yourself into a corner.

[bdgr]

No, but your understanding of human sensory perception is lacking. Your ears are no substitute for a meter and are simply not capable of making the kinds of accurate comparisons you claim you are.

Nonsense. Nobody is talking about laboratory measurements. Well, maybe you are, but you're grasping at straws. is bike a or b louder can be pretty well determined by just listening.


No, it isn't. Subjective impressions are never a basis for factual assertions. That's why science doesn't rely on them.

Ok...If you can hear a conversation your not deaf. Period. My statement was that nobody I knew was deaf from riding a motorcycle. I stand by that. if you need more than that you have problems I cant help you with.

Also, tinnitus isn't deafness. I infer your comment, which was made in the larger context of a discussion of loud pipes, was meant as a blanket statement that bike riding doesn't lead to deafness or hearing loss, whether from wind noise or any other cause. Funny you didn't object that you really meant wind noise until you painted yourself into a corner.

geez man, DO YOUR OWN READING. At first someone mentioned tinitus, then someone else mentioned going deaf. I made a simple statement that nobody I new went deaf from riding. We were talking about wind noise. You jumped to a big ole conclusion and were wrong, and starting with the insults and nitpicking. I'm not even close to being "painted into a corner'...what a goofy thing to say.

Give it a rest...you are just making yourself look foolish at this point.

[bdgr]

Earplugs cut out wind noise, and make other vehicles easier to hear, not harder. Maybe you should try it sometime? Otherwise, you're not going to be able to hear shit in 20 years, even sans earplugs.
Here ya go QED, wouldn't want you to strain yourself. Here's where the deaf thing came in....again, talking about wind.

[chacoguy]

As penance for starting this thread, the "Banditos" motorcycle gang has come to town. Google them if you want to see what nice boys they are. There are hundreds of them. Our town has six stop lights. They've brought in 150 rent-a-cops to keep an eye on them. What I have seen has only reinforced my views on loud pipes. There's a direct correlation between the loudness of their ride and their appearance. If they don't have a helmet, are wearing their 'colors' vest and no shirt, have tricked out facial hair and a ponytail, torn jeans and 'I'll stomp you to death' boots; their bike will be deafening. If they have a helmet and are dressed 'normally' their bike will have stock pipes. It's all about image. None of these sumbitches gives a shit about safety.

To any of you that took offense to this thread, Staaaart yourrrrr gloating! I live about fifty feet from Main St., there's probably five bikes a minute going past. The foundation of my home is shaking. Fuck, fuck, fuckity fuck. These guys go to bed early right? :rolleyes:

[bdgr]

As penance for starting this thread, the "Banditos" motorcycle gang has come to town. Google them if you want to see what nice boys they are. There are hundreds of them. Our town has six stop lights. They've brought in 150 rent-a-cops to keep an eye on them. What I have seen has only reinforced my views on loud pipes. There's a direct correlation between the loudness of their ride and their appearance. If they don't have a helmet, are wearing their 'colors' vest and no shirt, have tricked out facial hair and a ponytail, torn jeans and 'I'll stomp you to death' boots; their bike will be deafening. If they have a helmet and are dressed 'normally' their bike will have stock pipes. It's all about image. None of these sumbitches gives a shit about safety.

To any of you that took offense to this thread, Staaaart yourrrrr gloating! I live about fifty feet from Main St., there's probably five bikes a minute going past. The foundation of my home is shaking. Fuck, fuck, fuckity fuck. These guys go to bed early right? :rolleyes:
The Bandidos are fine upstanding gentlemen (remember those colors are red and gold, not yellow) and I have nothing bad to say about any of them. Ever...not even in jest.

And thats club, not gang. It's important you remember that.

[Q.E.D.]

The Bandidos are fine upstanding gentlemen (remember those colors are red and gold, not yellow) and I have nothing bad to say about any of them. Ever...not even in jest.
It's official, you are an idiot. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandidos)

I think I'm done here. Someone else can thump on your thick skull for a while.

[chacoguy]

It's official, you are an idiot. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandidos)

I think I'm done here. Someone else can thump on your thick skull for a while.



Q.E.D. is faster than me. I'm sorry for you if you cannot disagree with gentlemen that traffic in Meth, tamper with witnesses, have gun and drug violations AND murder their own members. I'll bet they're real nice.

Thanks for fighting my ignorance. :smack:

[bdgr]

It's official, you are an idiot. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandidos)

I think I'm done here. Someone else can thump on your thick skull for a while.
it's official...you lack a sense of humor too. see...one does not talk bad about bandidos, because they tend to take offense....it was joke, dumbass..

[Q.E.D.]

Oh, of course. I get jokes.

[bdgr]

Q.E.D. is faster than me. I'm sorry for you if you cannot disagree with gentlemen that traffic in Meth, tamper with witnesses, have gun and drug violations AND murder their own members. I'll bet they're real nice.

Thanks for fighting my ignorance. :smack:
See above....if you are around a bunch of Bandidos, you show them respect and dont talk bad about them....that is another kind of motorcycle safety entirely.

I guess people who havent grown up around them wouldn't pick up on that.

[bdgr]

Oh, of course. I get jokes.
Apparently not. At least not that one.

[Larry Mudd]

Apparently not. At least not that one.Pssst... that's a Homer Simpson quote. Now you're even. :)

[chacoguy]

See above....if you are around a bunch of Bandidos, you show them respect and dont talk bad about them....that is another kind of motorcycle safety entirely.

I guess people who havent grown up around them wouldn't pick up on that.


You've lost me, the reason that I'm supposed to show respect and not talk bad is......



Oh, right! The threat of physical violence! I guess I'm supposed to respect and not talk bad about Islamic terrorists. Believe me, I have a lot more to fear from your Bandido buddies than Bin Laden right now; I'll bet you are proud to be an American.

Fuck you and the company you keep. If you're a 1% biker, you're either a pathetic wannabe or an actual criminal, either way, fuck you and your fucked up world view. I hope you end up in a cage getting corn holed by truly evil men.

[Q.E.D.]

Fuck you and the company you keep. If you're a 1% biker, you're either a pathetic wannabe or an actual criminal, either way, fuck you and your fucked up world view. I hope you end up in a cage getting corn holed by truly evil men.
You don't think that's juuuuust a tad over the top? :dubious:

[bdgr]

Pssst... that's a Homer Simpson quote. Now you're even. :)
Doh

[bdgr]

You've lost me, the reason that I'm supposed to show respect and not talk bad is......



Oh, right! The threat of physical violence! I guess I'm supposed to respect and not talk bad about Islamic terrorists.

If you're in a town with a few hundred if them running around...yeah...pretty much.


Believe me, I have a lot more to fear from your Bandido buddies than Bin Laden right now; I'll bet you are proud to be an American.

i don't have any bandido friends...or enemys, and I plan to keep it that way on both counts.

Fuck you and the company you keep. If you're a 1% biker, you're either a pathetic wannabe or an actual criminal, either way, fuck you and your fucked up world view. I hope you end up in a cage getting corn holed by truly evil men.
Me? i'm not a 1%er, nor do I agree with their world view. See, i was making a joke up there....about not saying bad things about big violent people who outnumber you....geez, lighten up.

[bdgr]

You don't think that's juuuuust a tad over the top? :dubious:
I knew we could find common ground on SOMETHING....

[Bosstone]

If chaco's having to deal with them in his town, and if they're as bad as they appear to be, then a little over-the-top-ness wouldn't go awry, I think. That's a nervous situation.

[bdgr]

If chaco's having to deal with them in his town, and if they're as bad as they appear to be, then a little over-the-top-ness wouldn't go awry, I think. That's a nervous situation.
In all seriousness...
Generally, from my personal experiance, if you don't get involved in their business or say something stupid to them then you are generally ok. it's not like the old bikers take over the town b movies...

[buttonjockey308]

aa

[GusNSpot]

Idle points.

Safety:
A BIL is a big wheel in insurance. I had him do a check. The highest risk for insurance companies is 18-35 year olds on sport bikes. Lowest - Goldwings + elderly, then 'all others'. <--- approximations.

The biggest cause of motorcycle deaths (US) is cars pulling out in front of or turning in front of motorcycles.

I live next to a State Park in AR. Great ridding area. Got a gazzilion (approximate) bikers through here any time the weather is not miserable. The only individual riders I ever hear at distance is the lone sport bike exceeding the speed of sound. I never hear Goldwings even in groups of 50. Groups of sport bikes with riders under 25 can not go through the park less that 2X the speed limits. Even if they have to pass cars on blind hills. (Only very slight exaggeration) Twice a year I will hear a solo cruiser with PIPES at distance. (More non-Harley cruisers on the road than Harleys now and over 50% have nasty pipes on their wing ding ding buzz engines.... *snerk*

At distance, the same size groups of sport riders are 3X as fast and 2X as noticeable as groups of HD wanna bees bad boys. Just a higher pitch and carries better. Big group of cruisers at a distance sounds pretty good IMO. They just have to get closer to hear them. At legal speeds in the park, the HD riders get waved at and the sport riders get the one finger salute. They are not liked by experienced campers in state parks cause they are very dangerous to little kids and people walking along.

I have a 77 KZ 1000 and two homebuilt. 1200 cc and about 1800 cc.

I want to hear what -- No, I want a video of chaco going out and being as 'get in your face ballsy' with those noisy bikers as he is with us in here.

I wonder why the people who get so upset with people on motorcycles don't get out and do something about it? I stop police officers and report bad driving of all kinds, I use my cell phone to do the same, I'm a real asshat about stupid and inattentive people driving dangerous things that can get to me and hurt me through no fault of my own. I earned this 'tude' with my SS arm bone prostheses and loss of my lively hood and 90% of the strength and usefulness of my right arm. I'm right handed. The police report specifically stated that I was no no way responsible for any part of the accident that took me out. I almost got away from her but she gunned it at the last moment and got me. I have ridden a mile or three and the only other bikes to cause me trouble were sport bikes that were trying to harass me. Never had a 1% or cruiser bike act that way around me.

I can ride an HD with straight pipes and not bust the DB meters. I know lots of HD guys that do that very thing. Most have performance pipes that are not really 'straight' pipes. I see hundreds of bikes a week up here, sometimes thousands and the number of asshats is very small really. So, I wonder where all the 99% of cruiser riders with loud pipes that rack them off at 2 am and at every corner and every one that ends up beside your car, (what are you doing in a car anyway?) at 1out of 2 stoplights and all the HD dealers that you all live by...... Could there be some stretch in these frames ya think?

I have been glared at because of my sound and I have had it help. Nothing helps with 82 year old little ladies that should not have driver licenses.

We had a group of BMW riders camping a month ago or so. Not a one complained or criticized any of the bikes I rode up on (KZ & chopper) when I went to visit just cause. Of course not a one of them was on a 'sport' bike in full out racing gear and ear plugs either. Dangerous and stupid bunch that BMW group. You'd think they would be better than that, more like you guys in here.

[Joey P]

To any of you that took offense to this thread, Staaaart yourrrrr gloating! I live about fifty feet from Main St., there's probably five bikes a minute going past. The foundation of my home is shaking. Fuck, fuck, fuckity fuck. These guys go to bed early right? :rolleyes:
As someone who lived in Milwaukee (on a main road to boot) for the 95th, 100th and soon to be 105th Harley Davidson Anniversary, I can tell you that no, they do not go to bed early. Though the noise does become more of a dull hum after around 3:00am.

[Q.E.D.]

I want to hear what -- No, I want a video of chaco going out and being as 'get in your face ballsy' with those noisy bikers as he is with us in here.
:rolleyes:

He's angry (and justifiably,) not stupid.

[svrider]

There is plenty of mesh armor you can wear in summer now. It's a better choice.

I don't think so. I ride trackdays all year round and no way would I do that without full leathers and with the weather we have here, ventilated leather is just fine for the street too, even in the middle of summer we don't often see more than 30c.

[Bosstone]

That post made...no sense at all, GunsNSpot. If you had a point somewhere in there, it's lost like a lead brick in quicksand.

Cocky idiots on sports bikes are just as much assholes as people who purposely buy loud pipes and rev their throttle every chance they get. Nobody in this thread has even come close to making a blanket statement that cruiser riders are assholes. I ride a Kawasaki Vulcan myself. I just don't have any inclination to put aftermarket pipes on them.

What's your point?

ETA: Oh yeah, and anecdotally? About 9 in 10 sports bike riders I see on the road have at least a helmet on. Maybe 1 in 10 cruiser riders wear anything more than tattered jeans and wifebeaters. I'm exaggerating, but I seriously feel out of place wearing a helmet and jacket on my cruiser. It's rare that I see anyone make any kind of nod toward safety. You wanna know why there's so many motorcycle deaths? Because people don't give a shit about things like that.

[gonzomax]

If you are arguing that this makes the whole effect worthwhile, it makes about as much sense as abolishing seatbelts because one person drowned while wearing them.
Not true. I am merely relating an incident in my experience. I do not agree that the super loud bikes should be allowed. I think there should be limits. Some of the bikes are ridiculously loud and should be ticketed. Some idiots make their bikes so loud they wake up the whole neighborhood. that should be stopped.

[Vinyl Turnip]

I can ride an HD with straight pipes and not bust the DB meters. I know lots of HD guys that do that very thing.
So... you have a motorcyle with an exhaust system deliberately designed to be loud, and yet you can drive it in such a way that it's perfectly quiet?

I'm curious: a) how is this possible, and b) why would you bother installing loud, after-market pipes if you want to be courteous about noise levels?

(And let's please dispense with the "loud pipes save lives" thing—first of all it's bullshit, and second of all, any loud-pipe aficionado with enough candor will admit that they have loud pipes because they like the image/enjoy pissing people off, and that the "save lives" mantra is just an excuse they give to the uninitiated who don't share the same mindset.)

[GusNSpot]

Bawahahaha

The amount of mis read or unread or plain out ignoring going on in this thread is a h00t....

Have fun out there and be as safe.

Always remember and never forget, safety comes from what is in your head, not what is on your head.

[Argent Towers]

About 9 in 10 sports bike riders I see on the road have at least a helmet on. Maybe 1 in 10 cruiser riders wear anything more than tattered jeans and wifebeaters. I'm exaggerating, but I seriously feel out of place wearing a helmet and jacket on my cruiser. It's rare that I see anyone make any kind of nod toward safety. You wanna know why there's so many motorcycle deaths? Because people don't give a shit about things like that.

The full-face helmet fits with the "image" of riding a sportbike. But it does not fit with the "image" of riding a Harley. I think everyone agrees that a full-face helmet is the safest type of helmet, but I don't think I have ever seen anyone on a Harley (or any other type of cruiser bike) with a full-face and rarely even a 3/4. If a cruiser guy is wearing a lid, it's usually the half-helmet kind, which covers only the top of the head. But it's far more popular to just not wear a helmet at all, on a Harley. I mean, it's part of the appeal of that specific bike.

On the other hand - while there are lots of frat guys out on CBRs and 919's, wearing flip flops and tank tops and basketball shorts - really serious sport-bike guys will wear full leathers and full face helmets, and they never have to feel self conscious about it because 1. they know that they have the maximum amount of protection, and 2. it's the mark of a serious sportbike rider.

[phil417]

I hear you all complaining/bitching about loud pipes. How do we counteract the problem?

Contact the authorities? DIY (aka hammer & big nails)? We've figured out the problem, now how do we solve it?

Love, Phil

PS Is the BBQ Pit just about bitching, or can we actually do some good? I'm new to this forum.

[Bayard]

Yeah, but you cant drive down the road blasting a horn all day. The cops frown on that. It just makes cars aware of you.
Blasting a horn all day is bad. Blasting an engine, which is loud enough to serve the purpose of a horn, all day is OK?

[brewha]

Wow, this thread is fucking hilarious.

OK, so the point of this thread was to dispute that loud pipes save lives. Then, for 3 pages, posters come in and complain about how annoying those pipes are. If the point of loud pipes is to get noticed, and being annoyed by = getting noticed, I don't see where the failure is.

From my own experience, I'll say that loud pipes are beneficial. I used to have a Honda CX500. It was very quiet. I'd get a car pulling out in front of me at an intersection at least once a week. This is not an exaggeration. I replaced that bike with my current one. It's a Honda Shadow - which is a V-twin cruiser much like a Harley. It had aftermarket pipes on it when I bought it. It is louder than stock, but certainly not ear-shattering.

Since I've been riding the Shadow, it is a rare occasion that I have to avoid a car that didn't see me. To be fully honest, the Shadow is physically bigger than the CX500 and it has more chrome which could add to the visibility. So it could be those factors that add to my noticeability. It could be the loud pipes. It could be a combination of all three.

But, it is my life I'm worried about. And if it's only one time that my loud pipes caught an inattentive driver's attention than it is worth it.

Oh, and for the poster that said that they had never seen a cruiser rider with a full face helmet, I rode my Shadow to work today and my full face helmet is sitting here next to me.

[Bosstone]

So going without a helmet is done for style, but loud pipes are done for safety? Obviously this doesn't apply to you, brewha, but I rather doubt that there's only a little overlap between the riders who go without a helmet and those who put on loud pipes.

Oh, wait. Helmets obstruct sound, constrict vision, or are too hot, so it's better not to wear them. Also, headlights are dangerous in the day, because if you have the sun behind you you're not a silhouette but part of the light instead. There's plenty of rationalizing going on, but I don't really buy any of it. 'Loud pipes make people more aware of you' is just the baton twirler in that long parade of justifications for acting like a dumbass on a bike.

[brewha]

Ya know who I hate. Those fucking Honda Civic drivers. Every last one of those inconsiderate pricks should be drug out in the street and shot. What, with their coffee can mufflers, low profile tires and flashy, annoying paint jobs. They are always racing around the streets and driving like jackasses. I hate them all - I hate them almost as much as I hate those fucking Impala drivers. Those inconsiderate pricks with their booming system and hydraulic suspensions. All of those stupid fucking Impala drivers are always bouncing their cars down the street and blaring that annoying gansta rap. I hate those guys.

[Bosstone]

I think I've only made one stereotyped anti-Harley post in this thread, and that last one wasn't it. I for one am not talking about those damn Harley riders with their loud pipes, I'm talking about those damn loud pipes. Show me a riced-up Civic and I'll laugh at it too, but I've got nothing against non-dumbass motorcycle riders or Civic drivers.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Obviously this doesn't apply to you, brewha, but I rather doubt that there's only a little overlap between the riders who go without a helmet and those who put on loud pipes.
One of my brother's friends---a leathery hick who appears to be somewhere between 50 and 110 years of age---proudly rides a loud-pipe Harley with "ape hangers." He wrecked a previous Harley in a near-fatal, single vehicle accident on the interstate that left him in a coma for several days. Despite nearly dying (or perhaps because he didn't quite die), he rails against helmet laws and insists that one day he's going to move to another state where he can putter around with what's left of his brain fashionably unshielded.

I have paradoxical feelings about helmet laws: I think choosing to ride without one is the absolute nadir of human stupidity, and yet I firmly believe that the type of people who think it's a swell idea should be encouraged to ride helmetless, as often as possible, preferably at dangerously high speeds on slick, steep, mountainous roads.

[Bosstone]

Ape hangers. That's beautiful. I didn't know how to describe those ridiculous-looking handlebars.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Ape hangers. That's beautiful. I didn't know how to describe those ridiculous-looking handlebars.
That's actually what they're called, not just an apt description.

[zenith]

Ohh earplugs bdgr, I always wear them, not doing so is a fast road to tinnitus. Not because of the exhaust noise, but because of wind noise. You can still easily hear cars and ambulances and at the same time I find that I'm more concentrated and less fatigued when I don't have an ear full of high pitched wind noise while I ride.

And yes, I always wear full leathers and a back protector, even in the middle of summer :)

As someone who has spent most of his working life in ear protectors of one sort or other, I've never failed to hear audible equipment alarms.

Muffling the normal background makes it easier to hear the abnormal and many times you can hear something going bad long before it gets to the alarm stage.

BTW, with two loud AC chillers going, I can still hear sirens and car horns on the street outside my building while on the operating floor in my ear plugs.

If I might be allowed a slight hijack here, I'd include in this pitting the unnecessarily noisy pickup truck diesel exhaust. The noise level of a large Cummins-powered, trailer-mounted emergency generator at load is about half that of the average Cummins-powered Dodge Ram at idle. In fact, the generator's cooling fan is noisier than the the engine exhaust in many cases.

[Procrustus]

We've done the hell out of this before...but once again with feeling.



People do take it to extremes, and people do abuse it. But don't assume everyone who runs load pipes are just trying to be an asshole.


Yes, that's what I assume.

[Larry Mudd]

Yes, that's what I assume.That's not entirely fair -- some of them manage to be assholes without really trying.

[Askance]

OK, so the point of this thread was to dispute that loud pipes save lives. Then, for 3 pages, posters come in and complain about how annoying those pipes are. If the point of loud pipes is to get noticed, and being annoyed by = getting noticed, I don't see where the failure is. Because the loud pipes are annoying to those beside the road, or on the road beside or behind the rider. Ahead of the rider, not so much - and as quoted earlier in the thread that's where almost all the danger comes from.