Honest question about "N" word

[ChiefScott]

What, if any, is the difference between the words "nigger" and "nigga"? Definition? Connotation? Spoken (written) by a Black? A white? The infusion of hip-hop words into the everyday vernacular leaves me confused and often offended.

[mr john]

southern accent . means the same. bein southern might add a bit more bite to it in certain situations. My high school principal had to deal with the first year of integration, he used the word 'nigruh' for months. Can't think of a wise crack that would be acceptable. To ME I mean. Sorry to let you down. The wise ass lobe of my brain is being niggardly I guess.

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"............"-Marx

[Babar714]

Niggardly. Another perfectly fine word we can't use. I saw a a black person (and several others in the proximity) get incredibly offended when someone used it. A shame, really.

[matt_mcl]

Especially since it is etymologically unrelated, coming from the middle English nigon from Scandinavian, related to niggle but not to the Spanish negro.

[Omniscient]

Anyone remember a year or two back when a politican on a national press conference used the word niggardly to the dismay of the resident moron press? Can't recall who, where, or what the press conference was about. IIRC it made the frontpage of most newspapers, even the small college town newpaper and the univeristy paper in my school.

[pluto]

He was a local politician for the city of Washington, D.C. He ended up resigning over the flap it created. Sad but true.

[ChiefScott]

Slowly, we're going akilter. John makes the point that the two words are the same and differ only in its pronunciation. But most hip-hop references I've seen are not southern in origin, yet are spelled "nigga". I get the impression that, in the black community "nigga" is less offensive than "nigger". I'm trying to find out if there is any veracity to that statement.

[dougie_monty]

Many years ago a scholarly writer named George Stimpson commented that the "r" sound requires the greatest flexibility of the mouth parts used to articulate words and so it is the sound most often dropped by slovenly speakers. Some of my (white) ancestors come from the South so I know it isn't restricted to blacks. And I have heard people elide the "r" at the end of other words, or before a consonant, so it isn't racism that prompts it, but simply careless speech.

[mr john]

Chief,neither is more or less offensive, it is the SAME word. Some people may pronounce it niggA on purpose at times."poeticly","artistically" and I use those loosely,to 'fit in'or to be offensive. What a lot of people consider a 'black' accent is a varient of southern accents.Especially the inner urban accent,don't get it confused with a dialect, listen to the sounds of the words not what words are used and how and where.
Dougie ,you watch it thar boy,yew don know whut yur tockin 'bout,sayin ah tock slobenly There is a real difference between an accent and slovenly or careless speech.

[Markxxx]

Odd but during the 40's the Chicago Tribune spelled it "Neggar"

[Lumpy]

Anyone remember a year or two back when a politican on a national press
conference used the word niggardly to the dismay of the resident moron press?

I "snigger" at political correctness gone berserk.

Anyway, I think "nigga" is used mainly by African-Americans. I don't think a white would get away with using it.

Incidently, I've also heard the word "nigger" used to refer to someone who does all the work and gets none of the credit: e.g. "He's the company nigger".

[handy]

I've seen black people on film sometimes call each other that. But white people can't, of course. Insult heirachy or something?

[mangeorge]

Come on, you guys. Quicher whining. It ain't like our language has suffered a great loss in the word "nigger". Or niggardly, for that matter.
White, not black, people made the word dirty.
Contrary to popular (white) belief, most black people I know find the word offensive and never use it. Nor do they use words like "honky" or "peckerwood" or such, esp. in my presence. If you show respect, you get respect.
Peace,
mangeorge

[Markxxx]

It's similar as you can complain and insult your mother or your kid, but get mad if a stranger said the exact same thing about your mother or your kid. That's why blacks can use it but not whites.

Which brings up another point. Some hate black prefering African American but some hate African American prefering black. I had a friend Jean he hated the African American term. She said "I was born her in America and I an in no way African I am black."

So goes to show you, you never know what upsets some people.

[DougC]

- - - I think it was either Walter Williams or Thomas Sowell (who are black) that said he thought the term "African-American" was phony. He ponted out that most people who use it weren't born in Africa, and have never set foot there. In addition, most African-born naturalized citizens refer to the country they were born in, not the continent. - MC

[RealityChuck]

Many years ago a scholarly writer named George Stimpson commented that the "r" sound requires the greatest flexibility of the mouth parts used to articulate words and so it is the sound most often dropped by slovenly speakers.

I daresay that this is utterly refuted today. There are just some subdialects that tend to stress the "r" (rhotic) and those that tend to skip over it (non-rhotic). The Boston accent, for instance, is non-rhotic.

The key test is the word "murderer." If you hear all three r's, it's rhotic. Many subdialects drop one or more of them.

It has nothing to do with laziness of slovenlyness (say what you will, I doubt JFK was either). People just tend to prounounce words they way they hear them.

As an aside toward the main topic, the word "nigra" -- highly insulting and rarely used today -- was originally the dictionary pronunciation of the word "negro." Back in the 50s and 60s, southerners were no doubt bewildered at being castigated for using the term that Blacks wanted to be used.

In one of the other threads, someone--sorry, can't recall who!--answered my own question about the phrase African-American, which is so often inaccurate (I have two white friends who are African-American!). He said it was invented by Jesse Jackson in the '80s, with no input from the black community, and that the press picked it up from "respect" for Jackson and fear of being un-P.C. Most blacks I know hate the term, especially as many are not of direct African ancestry.

I can recall my grandmother referring to "colored people," my mother to "negroes," and I of course to "blacks." It seems to change from generation to generation--no doubt to keep us on our toes . . .

[ChiefScott]

Good responses, all. Thanks for the enlightenment. I know other threads dealt with the "who called whom what" issue. Whites should use neither word. Blacks may use either, but "nigga" is more acceptable. This true?

[ChiefScott]

I know this is a gross generalization (and I tend to avoid them if at all possible). I guess we should be referring this question to the majority, or popular opinion of the Black community.

[mangeorge]

"The key test is the word "murderer." If you hear all three r's, it's rhotic. Many subdialects drop one or more of them."
---RealityChuck
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Moidah? :)
Peace,
mangeorge

[dasmoocher]

IIRC, the guy in D.C. wasn't a politician but something like the budget director and he was refering to how he had to spend the city's money. He was later given another city job. D.C. is so screwed up that the only thing that gets recycled is Marion Barry.

[Contestant #3]

Mangeorge said:

"Contrary to popular (white) belief, most black people I know find the word offensive and never use it. "

Maybe most of the black people that YOU know don't use it, but let me tell ya, it's very much in widespread use as a word that blacks call each other and they use the word quite frequently.

I listen to Rap and Hip Hop music and "Nigga" is used constantly. In addition, black people that I know use the term both affectionatly and with disdain...it's all in the context of how they use it.

A white person can acually get away with using the word in the presence of blacks if the white person is accepted and uses the word in an affectionate or kidding context.

Thing is though, that blacks seem to have the "right" to suddenly decide that the term is offensive and then throw into the faces of white people.

I think that a lot of this political correctness and racism stuff is hypocritical and I'm a little sick of it. Blacks use the term "Whitey" with impunity. Imagine if you will a major motion picture entitled "Black boys smoke crack"...imagine a National Caucasion College Fund...an affirmative action plan for the NBA...etc... Now who's laughing?

They are allowed to be proud to be black but I gotta be ashamed to be white?

No, I'm not buying that crap.

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Contestant #3

[dougie_monty]

A clarification: I probably should have included more from Stimp;son, in his book Book About a Thousand Things (1946). He added, at the end of this discussion, that "many educated Americans and British say "daw" for door (etc.)
You may also be interested to know that most of my own relatives--in Indianapolis but with roots in Kentucky and Virginia--speak in what sounds to me like a Southern accent! When I myself was a high school senior, in 1967, I commented in journalism class that "I don't speak with an accent." The journalism teacher (who is still alive todaym in her 90s), an English major at UCLA, said I am wrong--that I speak with what she called a "Midwestern twang." Well, so be it. I have no plans to change my pronunciation.
And I apologize to anyone who has read this and taken offense to my use of the term "slovenly speakers." Even George Stimpson did not imply any such thing.

[rjk]

Re: niggardly

I don't know if it's the same case mentioned above (there are probably quite a few :( ), but I saw a press report a while back of a university professor who ended up having to resign after using that other N-word. I think (and hope!) it was some administrator who objected, rather than faculty.

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Bob the Random Expert
"If we don't have the answer, we'll make one up."

[mangeorge]

"No, I'm not buying that crap."
---Contestant #3
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Well, Connie, I've lived most of my life (54 years) in predominately black neighborhoods. A lot of black people do use the word nigger, just as you say. But most of the people I've known don't.
Who asked you to be ashamed of being white? Do you live in a small town? What I'm trying to find out is if your rage comes from personal experience or from the media.
I just find it ironic when people cross their fingers and say "kings" when the game is no longer so heavily weighed in their favor.
BTW; I doubt that many athletes have been exckuded from the NBA because they were white.
Peace,
mangeorge

[RavingMad]

Mr. John says "nigger" and "nigga" are the same word. I disagree.

Nigger is an offensive term used disparagingly toward a black person. The speaker can be white, brown, red, yellow, or even a fellow black. The word originally was, and continues to be, highly offensive.

Nigga, on the other hand, is an almost affectionate term a black person uses toward a black peer. The word means brother, friend, and compatriot. I'd say it's almost like the Soviet "comrade" in that it's used by members within a group to show their loyalty to, and affection for, others in that group.

Of course "nigga" sprung from "nigger," but the word has taken on a meaning almost diametrically opposed to its original one.

Once the word was embraced by the black community - and slightly altered - it was stripped of its hateful connotations and ceased to have any power over them. The same sort of thing has happened with the gay community and the word "queer." Once used in derision of gays, they've now adopted it as their affectionate buzz word.

Words are no more than sounds falling out of one's mouth. They have no intrinsic power to hurt; instead they have only the power people choose to imbue them with. Steal an offensive word from a group, use it affectionately toward yourself and your brethren, and you've robbed the word of any power to hurt.


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~ Complacency is far more dangerous than outrage ~

[Brother Haus]

STARK, you have put everything in the right category. Beautiful Job!
Brother Haus notes:
If someone not of my complexion (that I do not know) called me a "cracker", I would wonder what their intentions were. Now if I said to one of my "white" friends, "What's Up Cracker?", there is no offense being given or taken. It's like saying, "What's New Buddy?"


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"What it is, is what it is. And what it should be is a lie someone gave to the people a long time ago." No one said it better then Lenny Bruce.

[UncleBeer]

How about pickaninny. Would that be more acceptable? Just kidding here. I don't care what it means; it just sounds funny.

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Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure.
- Ambrose Bierce

[mr john]

Well ,yall come on down here and test out your theories.Just let me get out of the way.
I here the word pronounced between blacks with the r more often than the other way, probably because nigguh is the way 'others' down here pronounced it. It isn't the pronunciation, it is the tone of voice and expresion.Read the Virginian ,"smile when you call me that." I have sen two guys laughing and calling each other nigger and nigguh an dboy and all kinds of stuff, next thing you know there at each others throats over something and using the exact same words but they sure don't mean the same. My wife teaches at an inner city predominantly black high school, this is mild stuff compaered to what you'll hear in the halls in casual conversation. I am not 'into' hip hop, but that is a specialized culture with its own rules of syntax,vocabulary,etc.thats what I meant by 'poetic license' In some ways this is beginning to sound familiar "You all jist don't understand our black folks the way we do down here." I am not quite as elderly as man but I too have spent most of my 49 years, amongst,betwixt,around, and..( better not use any more adjectives, though I have had black bosses and subordinates) Stark I am agreeing with you generally,but there are subgroupings in subgroupings.The people i know, of any color, who have any pretensions to any kind of 'class' don't use certain words.Among them selves or with others. 'Downhere' if there is any difference NigUH with the stess is worse. Niguh is a natural pronunciation. (See dogie's post) BTW around here we say muRdeReR but drop the r in other words.Nice thing about Texas is theys a bunch a native accents

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"Something inciteful that some one else once said"- Suhm Wonn (1397-1334)

[Big Iron]

[[I think that a lot of this political correctness and racism stuff is hypocritical and I'm a little sick of it. Blacks use the term "Whitey" with impunity. Imagine if you will a major motion picture entitled "Black boys smoke crack"...imagine a National Caucasion College Fund...an affirmative action plan for the NBA...etc... Now who's laughing?]] C3


Well, for starters, I'm laughing at you.


[[They are allowed to be proud to be black but I gotta be ashamed to be white?]]


No, no, not because you're white ...

[Hazel]

Does anyone else remember the book "Manchild in the Promised Land" (Claude Brown)? I read it in the mid-60s. The black author, who grew up in an impoverished inner city neighborhood (in the 50s?), said that black people would call each other "nigger" -- but ONLY when there were no whites around.

This has changed in the last decade or so. I now hear black people calling each other "nigger" frequently, with no regard for who is present.

Re the Asian teens casually using the N-word, it seems to me that young people today work hard at being as vulger as possible, speaking gutter language in loud voices whenever there is anyone around to hear. To me, it seems both dumb and childish.

[Tony]

>>Anyway, I think "nigga" is used mainly by African-Americans. I don't think a white would get away with using it.<<

I cannot believe the variety of people who use this word, generally to refer to buddies or anyone else. It's not just black people. They are usually kids- *stupid* kids who think that they are somehow cool or "ghetto" or whatever by speaking this way. One time I was playing basketball with a Chinese man. Two Chinese kids step on the court and ask if they could play. Well, they didn't ask. They didn't understand proper manners. Me and the man played against these two nimrods, who at various points during the game lit up a cigarette. (What better time to light up than when playing a leisurely sport like basketball?). The two boys spoke to each other in Chinese or English during the game. And at one point, when my teammate blew past one of them, the other kid scolded him. "How could you let that nigga burn you like that?" I was left scratching my head. This is just one example. I've seen other kids of other ethnicities speak the same way. I'm not talking like they are in the Klan but they are casual about it. Personally, I don't believe that any word should be censored or removed from the language. I also don't think that anyone should be prohibited from saying any word. It bothers me when people are asked, like in court, if they have ever said the "N" word, as if they have then they are automatically hateful racists with no chance of redemption. Everyone has said every word. However, I also believe that words have their own special "powers" (for lack of a better word) and shouldn't be misused. "Nigger" is not on the same level as "dude," "guy," or "buddy." It's too bad that so many ignorant adolescents could care less.

[ChiefScott]

CMIIAW, the black community's casual, dare I say flippant, use of the word "nigger" and it's bastardized version "nigga", have slowly slipped from the domain of the black community into the mainstream. Right or wrong, Blacks' use of the word(s) tacitly "O.K.ed" its use by everyone else (though individuals may still be offended).

[palmolive]

well, in my experiance with the topic, it would seem that the "with it" black community has sort of taken what was once and insult and used it positively, much like what the gays have done with "queer". it's really annoying to me that every single race is allowed to have racial pride except the whites. for example, in my last year's yearbook a group took out and ad that had "persian pride" written all over it, while another group had a whole page of pictures with the words "latin style". yet another clique had a bunch of photos with the motto "alwaz smyle, azn style" (sorry, that is seriously how they spell asian these days). would i have been allowed to have an ad saying "white pride"? how about "alwaz smyle, caucazn style"? i think not. and they think i'm racist because my ancestors (not even *my* ancestors, they immigrated later) enslaved black people. sorry, but this really frustrates me and i had to rant somewhere.

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palmolive*

[Amazing Rando]

There are no such things as good and bad words. Only good an bad intentions.

Language is organic, it is a living thing. It grows, it changes, it mutates. Words change; word meanings change. Perhaps in 20 years, the "n" word will be commonly accepted and not seen as vulgar at all. Happens all the time.

Dont believe me? Look up the origins of the word "quaint".

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Niggardly. Another perfectly fine word we can't use. I saw a a black person (and several others in the proximity) get incredibly offended when someone used it. A shame, really.

Another word I've noticed you don't hear much anymore is
"renege", as in "reneging on an agreement". The correct
pronunciation actually is "re-NIG", which makes peoples' relunctance to use it understandable. Sometimes you hear people pronounce it "re-NEG".

[Fyodor]

And let us not forget "denigrate" -

"to attack the reputation" "to belittle"