Giving up your seat to a woman--outdated?

[installLSC]

This weekend, I took an express bus (about an hour trip) from Tacoma to Seattle. The bus was full so many people ended up standing for the entire trip. I offered to several women to stand up so they could sit down, but they all said "I'm fine". I noticed this had happened several times in the past few years too. Am I the only person this happens to? And if not, why won't women take an offer to give up your seat? I was always taught to do this (I'm only 33) and wonder if women think this is outdated.

[matt_mcl]

I think modern etiquette is to give up your seat to people who need it, such as elderly people, disabled people, someone laden with packages, etc., regardless of gender.

[Zsofia]

Well, just speaking for myself, yes, I think it is. I certainly wouldn't look down on somebody for offering, but I wouldn't take it (assuming I'm myself, meaning a healthy non-pregnant 28 year old.) I have many times given up my seat for elderly people, or disabled people, or even people with little kids or a lot of packages, but as standing presents no hardship for me I wouldn't take an offered seat.

[Girl Next Door]

I think modern etiquette is to give up your seat to people who need it, such as elderly people, disabled people, someone laden with packages, etc., regardless of gender.

Seconded.

When I was pregnant I lived in Boston and took the T (subway) everywhere. Very seldom did people offer me a seat. When they did I was very grateful.

[Lakai]

My rules are pregnant women, women with kids and anyone that looks like they're having trouble standing up.

I not standing for an hour, on the NY subway, during rush hour, for anyone else.

[Alice The Goon]

We don't generally want, need, or expect a man to offer his seat if we are not extremely old, or very pregnant. No need to even give it a thought. I'm just as capable of standing as you are, and I'm not weak, so the seats should be first come, first served, as if we were equals. I do, however, expect you to open the door if you're there before me, which you should strive to be if at all possible. I'm finicky like that.



One time we had a discussion about offering pregnant women a seat, and it was surprising how heated that got, IIRC. I don't see how it could be controversial, but, of course, someone made it so.

[elfkin477]

If I'm not visably pregnant, on crutches/noticably ill, or over the age of 60, you shouldn't feel as though you need to offer me your seat. If you insisted anyway, I'd feel guilty for taking it.

[Leaffan]

I'd offer. I usually won't sit on crowded public transportation anyway. That way I avoid all possibly embarrassing scenarios.

[amarinth]

It's a very nice thing to offer. And it's nice to see someone thinking of someone else's comfort before their own. But I'm not going to take your seat unless I'm wrangling heavy packages or something and you're not. If we're both in the same situation, then you got there first. It's your seat.
But it's a very nice offer.
BTW, if you're wrangling heavy packages or a child or something - I'm going to offer you my seat.

[Johnny Q]

"are you doing this because I'm a lady?"
"No, I'm doing this because I'm a gentleman."

[Li'l Pluck]

I'd offer. I usually won't sit on crowded public transportation anyway. That way I avoid all possibly embarrassing scenarios.

Yep, ditto.

Unless, of course, I'm REALLY exhausted or otherwise not feeling well (graveyard shift + not a lot of sleep + days at school = it happens), in which case I might be a little less inclined to offer up my seat if you don't look like you need it (e.g., elderly, pregnant, little kids unaccustomed to subway surfing, or obviously physically impaired).

[Sampiro]

I'm always irritated riding the D.C. Metro or MARTA in Atlanta at able bodied young men who sit while much older or pregnant women stand. I've even seen blind women standing. It may be politically incorrect/condescending/old fashioned/whatever, but I will always give up my seat to a lady providing

1- she's older than I am (I'm not quite chivalrous enough to offer it to a teenager;)

or

2- she's pregnant or otherwise encumbered (bags, kids, etc.)

or

3- she seems like she'd be appreciative (as mad as I get at young men remaining seated I get just as irked when a lady doesn't say "thank you")

Unless it's a very close friend or super informal setting I also always stand when a lady enters the room and get irked with those who don't. For that matter I consider it bad manners not to rise when introduced to somebody of any sex (it seems too "royal" to shake their hand while they're standing and you're seated- though if they'd kiss my ring I might prefer to be seated). Childhood training dies hard.

[Quartz]

If someone's pregnant, carrying a toddler, elderly, or infirm, I'll offer my seat.

[mhendo]

I think modern etiquette is to give up your seat to people who need it, such as elderly people, disabled people, someone laden with packages, etc., regardless of gender.Exactly.

We have, i would like to think, moved past the time when simply being a woman was considered a disability necessitating a seat. Able-bodied, non-geriatric, non-pregnant women are just as capable as i am of standing on a moving train or bus.

[Kalhoun]

I offer it to those who are obviously in need of a seat, regardless of gender. Offering a seat just because someone is female is outdated, though I see nothing offensive about it if someone is simply being nice.

[Jragon]

Unless it's a very close friend or super informal setting I also always stand when a lady enters the room and get irked with those who don't.

Well times sure have changed, haven't even heard of that one. At a camp once we had a formal dinner where we had to stand if a lady at our table got up to get a drink or food (with the strict provision that the order is revoked if they abuse it by standing up and sitting down to annoy us), but I've never heard of standing when anyone short of Queen Elizabeth herself or the Bride to Be enters the room.

Then again my mother is the one who explicitly repeated to me when I was younger to not worry myself with putting the seat down, which from browsing the internet I can see is going to make for some lovely howls of furious anger at me some day.

As for the bus:
I give my seat up for most people unless it presents some sort of logistical issue (if it's packed and they're not in some way encumbered or disabled it's a pain to maneuver around tons of people just to switch seats). If anyone is close and the seats are filled but standing room is abundant a lot of times I'll say, male or female, "hey, want a seat?" But that's just me. I always give it up though if someone is pregnant or has a bunch of kids etc, oftentimes I've seen someone with four kids (or something) getting on and I just silently move before they even see me so they and/or their kids have a place to sit. No thanks necessary I'm just as happy standing and little kids are a bit rambunctious when they don't sit, it's better for everyone that way.

I do, however, expect you to open the door if you're there before me, which you should strive to be if at all possible. I'm finicky like that.

Can we please have an international conference or something about this? One day I open the door for someone and get yelled at because "they can do it themselves" (I was there first, and was being nice... not making any social statement sheesh), the next I don't and get ratted out for having no manners. I think we need a bill through congress to decide a provision here or something.

[Cicero]

I'm with Quartz and a few others above. However, sadly, people seem to offer me a seat these days.

[jali]

I don't think it's outdated. I think it's charming and I appreciate the offer every time. Have you seen my shoes? :p

[Kalhoun]

Can we please have an international conference or something about this? One day I open the door for someone and get yelled at because "they can do it themselves" (I was there first, and was being nice... not making any social statement sheesh), the next I don't and get ratted out for having no manners. I think we need a bill through congress to decide a provision here or something.

I didn't think "Yelling-at-the-nice-guy" was a real thing. I've never seen anyone do this. Those who do deserve to be locked out of the establishment they're trying to enter.

[mbh]

I will offer my seat to a female.

Not because I think she's weak. Because I'm hoping to score. :)

[overlyverbose]

I think it's charming when a man offers me his seat on a crowded subway. I probably won't take it unless I'm in one of the aforementioned circumstances (i.e., pregnant, with toddler in tow, carrying a whole lot of crap or otherwise uncomfortable standing), but I definitely appreciate it and don't take it as any sort of political statement.

I always offer my seat to people older than me or who are visibly uncomfortable due to standing (on crutches, very pregnant, carrying lots of stuff, not feeling well) and I really appreciate it when someone is nice enough to do the same thing for me. I think it sucks that so many women read other things into it - I sincerely doubt that any man who offers his seat to a woman, whether it's because they're a woman or not, is thinking, "Here's a way for me to PROVE that she's weak! This is the perfect opportunity to reinforce old stereotypes. Haha! [twirls mustache]" Offering a seat to a "lady" is probably a tad outdated, but as far as I'm concerned, manners never go out of style.

[Cicero]

I will offer my seat to a female.

Not because I think she's weak. Because I'm hoping to score. :)

You want to score with an old boiler? (Just joking- get the point).

[CalMeacham]

I still do it.

What surprises me is the number of women that won't take the seat. So several of us are left standing, with an unused vacant seat right there.

[overlyverbose]

I still do it.

What surprises me is the number of women that won't take the seat. So several of us are left standing, with an unused vacant seat right there.

Now that's just silly. Sheesh. What's even weirder about that is if the person you're offering an empty seat to would just sit down, there would be one less person in the way of other passengers. I guess one could argue that you ought to take the seat, but still...if you're nice enough to offer and the seat will otherwise be empty, I'm happy to take one for the team and sit down. :)

[Zsofia]

I've offered my seat to elderly gentlemen on crowded trains in the past only to hurt their feelings. I guess it must kind of bring home how old you've gotten when young women try to let you sit down, but I was only trying to be nice!

And, Christ, please do not scurry ahead of me to get the door. You can maneuver yourself gracefully ahead of me if you like, but it does annoy me if you make a break for it just to get there in front of me to hold the door when I don't have packages. What, am I defective?

[olivesmarch4th]

I always considered it outdated, but I was on the subway the other day staring off into space and a gentleman tapped me on the shoulder and offered me a vacant seat. Completely surprised me, but gave me a warm fuzzy feeling too.

I don't think women are any less capable of standing on a subway than men, though you may have a reasonable argument there considering the shoes some of us wear... :p

FWIW I always offer my seat to old or disabled or pregnant people. I'm surprised at the number of folks who don't.

[TheMerchandise]

I don’t expect men to give up their seat for me on the subway. But if men offer, I usually accept with a “thank you” and a smile. They’re trying to do a nice thing, it feels rude to decline that gesture. Plus, hey, sitting!

Sometimes I suspect men do it to “try to score,” but most of the time I suspect that they were just raised to be gentlemen.

[Harmonious Discord]

I will offer my seat to a female.

Not because I think she's weak. Because I'm hoping to score. :)

Would you like to sit here?
Thanks.
pause
Are you going to move?
That wasn't the deal mam.

[starryspice]

Why can't we all just use common sense about this? Offer your seat on the subway/bus to someone who needs it (see post #2). Why would you offer a seat to a woman if she is a healthy person who looks capable of standing? While I will sit whenever possible on the subway, I will not take offers from men to sit down. It is not directly insulting, because I think they are trying to be nice, but I wouldn't feel right taking their seat.


Can we please have an international conference or something about this? One day I open the door for someone and get yelled at because "they can do it themselves" (I was there first, and was being nice... not making any social statement sheesh), the next I don't and get ratted out for having no manners. I think we need a bill through congress to decide a provision here or something.

In the same vein, when you get to a door, just open it and hold it open for the person behind you, regardless of who that person behind you may be. There's no need to rush to a door or to hold it open for ladies first. Just follow some basic common sense and no international conference will be required.

(Note: My impression is that rules may be somewhat different in the South. Not sure why.)

[Caveat lector]

I tend to offer my seat because its what I was raised to do. It is pretty much ingrained into me as a sign of respect and what should be done. If I don't I end up with a running commentary in my head the whole ride about how I should be offering my seat. For this reason, if the train or whatever is at all crowded I just stand even if there are seats. It's easier.

[Foxy40]

I have to say that I am surprised at many of the above replies. When I see men sitting in a seat while ladies are standing my first thought is...how rude. Obviously they were not raised as gentlemen.

I will say that while visiting California this past weekend, I found myself on a very crowded bus. I already had a seat but I am pleased to say that every gentlemen on the bus offered up his seat to a lady or elderly gentlemen.

[Typo]

I will smile and say thank you, but unless I'm tired or wearing heels or otherwise burdened, I probably won't take it. I appreciate it, though.

This thread reminded me of a time I regularly rode a city bus on a route which passed by a high school, so lots of teenagers and SRO for several blocks. As we pulled up, I saw the usual crowd of kids and an older lady waiting. I remarked casually to the driver "I'll bet none of those kids think to let her on first." He shot me a surprised look, and when he stopped and the kids swarmed for the door, he hollered at them to back up and let the lady on. He said it wouldn't have occurred to him if I hadn't said something.

[Skald the Rhymer]

I don't necessarily give my seat up to ANY woman. But if she's appreciably noticeably older than I am -- in her fifties, say -- or visibly pregnant, she gets my seat, or seems to be in any physical distress, she gets my seat.

That said, back when I was riding buses in Memphis regularly (ended about '05) there was fairly reliable pressure from other bus riders for young men to give up their seats for older women. It was expected.

[MLS]

I would also offer my seat to someone who looked like he or she needed it more than I do. However, I would also graciously accept -- with thanks -- a seat from anyone who offered it. I don't look really old, nor do I think I look especially disabled, but I do have arthritis in my spine and it hurts increasingly the longer I have to stand.

Courtesy is never outdated. If a woman doesn't want a seat all she has to do is say "No, thank you."

[Jragon]

Why can't we all just use common sense about this? Offer your seat on the subway/bus to someone who needs it (see post #2). Why would you offer a seat to a woman if she is a healthy person who looks capable of standing? While I will sit whenever possible on the subway, I will not take offers from men to sit down. It is not directly insulting, because I think they are trying to be nice, but I wouldn't feel right taking their seat.



In the same vein, when you get to a door, just open it and hold it open for the person behind you, regardless of who that person behind you may be. There's no need to rush to a door or to hold it open for ladies first. Just follow some basic common sense and no international conference will be required.

(Note: My impression is that rules may be somewhat different in the South. Not sure why.)

Well, to clarify when I got yelled at I was first, unless I'm really in a hurry I'll hold open the door for whoever is behind me (or in front of me should the case permit), when I got yelled at I wasn't first and was expected to rush ahead to open the door for an unfamiliar perfectly healthy girl who couldn't have been older than 20.

I didn't think "Yelling-at-the-nice-guy" was a real thing. I've never seen anyone do this. Those who do deserve to be locked out of the establishment they're trying to enter.
It's rare, but seems to be more common in college-kid heavy areas (like where I moved a couple months ago). If I had to guess it's from the girls who JUST discovered there's something called feminism and decided to take it to its "fullest" without bothering to analyze the underlying philosophy first. (No, I'm not bashing feminists, just people who decide to get worked up in a philosophy without actually understanding what the movement is about).

Door opening wars are fun though. At band camp once (and this one time... at band camp), I got into a silent battle with the danceline captain as to who could get to the door and hold it open for our group first. "Thank you" roughly meant "YOU'VE WON THIS BATTLE!" I managed to hold the door and beat her to the next one once even! :p (I think I won by that one door, actually)

[grimpixie]

Re: Pregnant women

My wife told me that the time she really needed to be offered a seat was in the first few months of pregnancy, before she began to show. Then and in the last few weeks - most of the time while she was visibly pregnant, she actually didn't need the seat, which is not to say she turned down the few offers she got. :)

Fortunately, she didn't need to use public transport all that often.

[KarlGrenze]

We don't generally want, need, or expect a man to offer his seat if we are not extremely old, or very pregnant. No need to even give it a thought. I'm just as capable of standing as you are, and I'm not weak, so the seats should be first come, first served, as if we were equals.

You should've started your paragraph with "I" instead of "we", woman! I don't expect a guy to give up my seat (and usually, they don't), but if someone does, I say thanks and accept it.

As a woman, I also give up my seat for those mentioned earlier (disabled, people who look older than me, pregnant women, women with small kids). So, after a guy giving me his seat, someone else comes that I think deserves the seat more, I will give it up.

[Cicero]

You should've started your paragraph with "I" instead of "we", woman! I don't expect a guy to give up my seat (and usually, they don't), but if someone does, I say thanks and accept it.

As a woman, I also give up my seat for those mentioned earlier (disabled, people who look older than me, pregnant women, women with small kids). So, after a guy giving me his seat, someone else comes that I think deserves the seat more, I will give it up.

How can a guy give up your seat?

[Ruken]

A vagina is not an infirmity. I give up my seat to people who look like they need it.
I do, however, expect you to open the door if you're there before me, which you should strive to be if at all possible. I'm finicky like that.Can we please have an international conference or something about this? One day I open the door for someone and get yelled at because "they can do it themselves" (I was there first, and was being nice... not making any social statement sheesh), the next I don't and get ratted out for having no manners. I think we need a bill through congress to decide a provision here or something.Perhaps Alice The Goon has no arms :eek:

[mbh]

Originally posted by Cicero
Originally Posted by mbh
I will offer my seat to a female.

Not because I think she's weak. Because I'm hoping to score.

You want to score with an old boiler? (Just joking- get the point).
The old boiler might have a cute daughter. The battle-axe might have a cute sister. The mother-of-ten might have a friend who is single. It's not just about the here-and-now. You also want to get good references in the future!

Seriously, though, Dave Barry once offered this advice to his daughter: A man who is nice to you, but rude to the waitress, is not a nice person. Pay attention to this. It never fails.Good advice, and it applies to more than just restaurants.

[Shodan]

I do this automatically.

I was in New York City once, and I offered my seat on the subway to a lady. She accepted, once she got the idea that I wasn't hitting on her or trying to steal her purse.

She then sat down. looked up at me, and said, "You're from out of town, aren't you?"

:D

Regards,
Shodan

[R. P. McMurphy]

Re: Pregnant women

My wife told me that the time she really needed to be offered a seat was in the first few months of pregnancy, before she began to show. Then and in the last few weeks - most of the time while she was visibly pregnant, she actually didn't need the seat, which is not to say she turned down the few offers she got. :)

Fortunately, she didn't need to use public transport all that often.

My wife said the same thing. She told me that the first few months during morning rush hour were brutal. She was fighting morning sickness. During the last trimester she was getting offered a seat all of the time but it didn't matter so much because she wasn't going to get comfortable anyway. Of course, an hour ride would be a different matter.

[starryspice]

Well, to clarify when I got yelled at I was first, unless I'm really in a hurry I'll hold open the door for whoever is behind me (or in front of me should the case permit), when I got yelled at I wasn't first and was expected to rush ahead to open the door for an unfamiliar perfectly healthy girl who couldn't have been older than 20.


That girl sounds quite rude, and you were not in the wrong. Some people just like to yell, I guess.

What's funny is that if a male colleague (or my husband or whoever) makes a show of holding a door open for me, I will generally hold the next one open for him. It's not even on purpose, I just tend to walk fast and make it to the door first.

The mentions of "gentlemen" and "ladies" in this thread are fairly amusing to me. I do not own a parisol, I do not wear a bustle, and I usually wear pants. I am strong and do not tend to faint or require the use of smelling salts. (I also don't usually wear heels, but that's a personal choice.) None of the men I know wear fancy hats, carry canes, or discuss politics in men-only smoking rooms. Some of them do smoke, but generally in mixed groups.) By all means, stand on the subway during rush hour if you would rather that someone else sit down. But start saying things like, "gentlemen should give up their seats to ladies" and I can only laugh.

[Annie-Xmas]

Offering a woman your seat solely because she's a woman? Definitely outdated.

Like the others said, offer your seat to anyone who looks like they need it. The only seat not having a penis qualifys the need for one is in the bathroom.

[Antinor01]

I still do it.

What surprises me is the number of women that won't take the seat. So several of us are left standing, with an unused vacant seat right there.

I offer, but I don't stand first. That way if they say no I still have my seat.

[pbbth]

I have had men offer me their seat on the subway several times. Most of the time I don't accept but it is nice to know that they would be so kind as to give me their seat. I have offered my seat to pregnant/injured/elderly people several times and have often been turned down as well. Sometimes it has nothing to do with whether or not you want/need the seat but with the fact that you are only going 2 stops or something like that.

On another note, my former roommate would get on the train pushing out her stomach and walking like she was about 4-5 months pregnant to trick people into giving up their seats. It was all I could do not to punch her in the face for that.

[shy guy]

My rules are pregnant women, women with kids and anyone that looks like they're having trouble standing up.

I not standing for an hour, on the NY subway, during rush hour, for anyone else.
Agreed, completely.

I will say that Shodan's experience surprises me. I've found New York City subway riders to be extremely eager to give up their seats to the elderly, pregnant women, etc. Perhaps things were different when he visited.

At any rate, no, I don't give up my eat to someone just because she is a woman. That's silly.

[Clothahump]

Basic courtesy is never outdated. That is why I give my seat to a woman or open the door for her (if I get there first).

[Interconnected Series of Tubes]

No way. Have you seen the way they drive?

[rolandgunslinger]

Yes, I will give up my seat for anyone who needs it.

I also open the car door for my wife and daughter to get in/out.

[mutantmoose]

What about the scenario where you both get on the train/bus at the same time and there's an empty seat there?

Who gets first dibs on the seat - the man or the woman?

Personally (as a male), in that scenario, I just stay standing and don't even go for the seat. If the woman wants it, fine. If she doesn't, fine. No way am I going to sit on it though and look like a complete heel.

[KarlGrenze]

Cicero, I don't understand your question (or I'm being whooshed). Clarify, please?

What I am surprised is the women in this thread that have said they regularly decline the sits being offered. I don't think I remember offhand being a seat and (gracefully or not) declining it.

[Cicero]

Cicero, I don't understand your question (or I'm being whooshed). Clarify, please?

.

Not being whooshed. This part:

I don't expect a guy to give up my seat


I don't quite follow. I am probably not grasping your phrasing.

[starryspice]

<snip>
I also open the car door for my wife and daughter to get in/out.


This is the strangest thing I've ever heard. Am I misunderstanding this? Do your wife and daughter just sit there while you walk around the car to let them out?

Does your wife (or daughter if she's old enough) ever drive the car? What do they do then? Does she let you out if she's driving with you in the passenger seat?

[amarinth]

This is the strangest thing I've ever heard. Am I misunderstanding this? Do your wife and daughter just sit there while you walk around the car to let them out?

Does your wife (or daughter if she's old enough) ever drive the car? What do they do then? Does she let you out if she's driving with you in the passenger seat?I've seen people do that - it strikes me as slightly odd to sit there when I can open the door myself ... but whatever floats their boats.

Once, I was in a parking garage and the door openers weren't quite working correctly if you were sitting in the car - you had to get out and go to the other side to click it open. My sister and I had only managed earlier that afternoon when one of us opened it and the other drove through before it closed again.
I was walking through with my arms full and saw a man struggling. He had gotten to the stage where he'd finally gotten the door to open, but it didn't look like he'd get back into his car and get it moving before it started to close on him again. On my way back, I saw him getting out of the car again. I was going to offer to help, when I saw his girlfriend/wife, sitting on her butt in the passenger seat, waiting to be driven somewhere. I figured they deserved to be trapped in the parking garage for that.

[KarlGrenze]

Not being whooshed. This part:

I don't expect a guy to give up my seat


I don't quite follow. I am probably not grasping your phrasing.

:smack: Didn't pick it up. I meant give up his seat, or give me his seat. Apparently I confused pronouns there.

I don't expect a guy to give up his seat, but if he does I thank him and take it. Like I said, it doesn't happen too often.

[overlyverbose]

This is the strangest thing I've ever heard. Am I misunderstanding this? Do your wife and daughter just sit there while you walk around the car to let them out?

Does your wife (or daughter if she's old enough) ever drive the car? What do they do then? Does she let you out if she's driving with you in the passenger seat?

My husband opens my door for me to get in, even if I'm driving, though I usually get to it before he does when we've arrived at our destination and it's time to get out. When we were first dating, he'd offer me a hand to get out of the car - then again, I wore a lot more skirts back then, so it was useful, especially getting out of a low car.

I joked that I'd forget how to operate door handles or fall over attempting to get out of the car if he kept doing that. He replied that his intention was to let me know how special I am to him, not to make me feel in any way incompetent. So I let him open the doors - and it does make me feel special. (Though he doesn't hand me in and out of the car very often anymore - usually he's occupied strapping our son into his car seat.) And apparently he feels good about it, too, because it allows him to do something to make me feel good. Of course, if anyone other than a valet or my husband attempted to open my car door for me, that'd feel a little strange.

And for what it's worth, I can't speak for the previous poster, but I don't just sit there and wait for him to open the door once the car has stopped, but if I'm gathering stuff (my purse, our kid's things), he'll usually open the door for me.

[Shodan]

My wife told me that the time she really needed to be offered a seat was in the first few months of pregnancy, before she began to show.
Old joke -

Young woman says to an old man on the bus, "May I have your seat? I'm pregnant."

THe old man stands up and gives her his seat. She sits down. The old man notices that she is quite slender in the waist. "So," he asks, "how far along are you?"

"About half an hour - and I can still hardly walk!"

Regards,
Shodan

[gigi]

Yes, I will give up my seat for anyone who needs it.But why would it follow that a woman would need it any more than a man?

My wife told me that the time she really needed to be offered a seat was in the first few months of pregnancy, before she began to show. Then and in the last few weeks - most of the time while she was visibly pregnant, she actually didn't need the seat, which is not to say she turned down the few offers she got. :) This makes me feel the tiniest bit better about one of those incidents that still make me cringe. I was standing on the train and had of course trained myself to dive for any seat that became available. This guy gets up a little early and heads for the doors and I quickly slide into his seat. Only to look up and see the pregnant woman he had clearly left it early for. (no words were exchanged so I wasn't that bold-faced) To this day I don't know why I didn't get back up--part of the reason I left NYC was I got ruthless like that and could have gotten myself in a lot of trouble.

[jackdavinci]

guy here, I might offer my seat to someone who might need it regardless of gender (see above examples). if i'm tired though, I might not offer, but I 'll give it up if asked, without any attitude.

[rolandgunslinger]

This is the strangest thing I've ever heard. Am I misunderstanding this? Do your wife and daughter just sit there while you walk around the car to let them out?

Does your wife (or daughter if she's old enough) ever drive the car? What do they do then? Does she let you out if she's driving with you in the passenger seat?

Sometimes they get out before I get a chance to open the door for them.:)




I'm a gentleman. What can I say?

[Bobotheoptimist]

"are you doing this because I'm a lady?"
"No, I'm doing this because I'm a gentleman."
Well put.

[Cicero]

Sometimes they get out before I get a chance to open the door for them.:)




I'm a gentleman. What can I say?

It seems strange to me that others find it strange that this is done- it has always been standard in my life. (Though I do wonder if it is still polite to light a cigarette for a female companion).

[Jenaroph]

My boyfriend has bad feet. He's neither old nor disabled; it's just that after walking all day, his feet will hurt a lot. Mine won't. So when we're on a bus or subway, if one of us offers a seat to a stranger, it'll be me, and a lot of people in this thread would write him off as "not a gentleman."

For those who find it strange that people find the idea of gentlemen standing for ladies strange - in my case, I find the implication that any man is better off standing than any woman false and condescending. Seats should be offered for those who look like they could use them, of course; but which is more rude: to assume need or lack of need? A hard and fast social convention of "men give their seats to women" is unflattering to both genders. I don't expect any fellow passenger to give up a seat for me, because they might have a reason not to that isn't visible, and it's none of my business or anyone else's.

[Rodgers01]

This is the strangest thing I've ever heard. Am I misunderstanding this? Do your wife and daughter just sit there while you walk around the car to let them out?

Does your wife (or daughter if she's old enough) ever drive the car? What do they do then? Does she let you out if she's driving with you in the passenger seat?
When I'm going to go somewhere with my dad and we're heading to the car, he always goes to the passenger side and unlocks and opens the door for me first, and then go to the driver's side and lets himself in. And I'm a guy. (Of course, when we're getting out of the car it's each man to himself.) I've always thought it was strange and have told him multiple times it's not necessary, but he still does it!

We don't generally want, need, or expect a man to offer his seat if we are not extremely old, or very pregnant. No need to even give it a thought. I'm just as capable of standing as you are, and I'm not weak, so the seats should be first come, first served, as if we were equals. I do, however, expect you to open the door if you're there before me, which you should strive to be if at all possible. I'm finicky like that.Like some others, I'm perplexed at how the first part of this paragraph and the second paragraph fit together. You're perfectly capable and independent when it comes to seats, but when it comes to doors I'm expected to run ahead so I can open it for you...? Huh? I'll hold it open if I'm in front of you naturally (as I'd expect you to do for me), but no way am I going to go out of my way to jump ahead of you to do it! (Unless, of course, you're particularly old or frail, etc. etc...)

[Rodgers01]

What about the scenario where you both get on the train/bus at the same time and there's an empty seat there?

Who gets first dibs on the seat - the man or the woman?

Personally (as a male), in that scenario, I just stay standing and don't even go for the seat. If the woman wants it, fine. If she doesn't, fine. No way am I going to sit on it though and look like a complete heel.

I'd say very rarely do two people arrive at a seat at exactly the same time. If I do arrive at a seat exactly as someone else is going for it, I'll defer to the other person, regardless of their gender. But if, for example, I'm getting on a bus and I'm ahead of a (healthy, unencumbered) woman in line at the bus stop, I will definitely take the empty seat instead of standing or offering it to her.

[Cicero]

My boyfriend has bad feet. He's neither old nor disabled; it's just that after walking all day, his feet will hurt a lot. Mine won't. So when we're on a bus or subway, if one of us offers a seat to a stranger, it'll be me, and a lot of people in this thread would write him off as "not a gentleman."

For those who find it strange that people find the idea of gentlemen standing for ladies strange - in my case, I find the implication that any man is better off standing than any woman false and condescending. Seats should be offered for those who look like they could use them, of course; but which is more rude: to assume need or lack of need? A hard and fast social convention of "men give their seats to women" is unflattering to both genders. I don't expect any fellow passenger to give up a seat for me, because they might have a reason not to that isn't visible, and it's none of my business or anyone else's.

I think this is aimed at me, and I don't feel it is "false and condescending". No more so than paying for a restaurant on a date, or arranging to pick you up on that date.

[Quartz]

My boyfriend has bad feet. He's neither old nor disabled; it's just that after walking all day, his feet will hurt a lot. Mine won't. So when we're on a bus or subway, if one of us offers a seat to a stranger, it'll be me, and a lot of people in this thread would write him off as "not a gentleman."

If he's got bad feet, maybe he should use a walking stick to transfer some of the weight? It would also indicate that he's infirm.

[Jenaroph]

I think this is aimed at me, and I don't feel it is "false and condescending". No more so than paying for a restaurant on a date, or arranging to pick you up on that date.
It was not intended personally but generally, though I used your phrasing. Sorry about that.

I do however also think that paying for the restaurant and doing the driving are perfectly gender-neutral gestures.

Does a woman ever get to be a gentleman, if being a gentleman means performing some small act of good manners and responsibility for a companion's or stranger's well-being? I like doing such things. Should that pleasure belong to men alone, and if so, why? What does gender have to do with good intentions?
If he's got bad feet, maybe he should use a walking stick to transfer some of the weight? It would also indicate that he's infirm.
Maybe in his case, he should. But that's not my point. What about the guy with perfectly good feet who had a rough day at work and wants to sit down for a while? What visual cue should he carry to show that "hey, I'm a gentleman, really, I just need this seat today"? People shouldn't have to make a case to be allowed to sit without appearing rude. Women usually get a free pass on this, and men don't. Again, why? What does gender have to do with need?

[Caveat lector]

My boyfriend has bad feet. He's neither old nor disabled; it's just that after walking all day, his feet will hurt a lot. Mine won't. So when we're on a bus or subway, if one of us offers a seat to a stranger, it'll be me, and a lot of people in this thread would write him off as "not a gentleman."


I never expect anyone to offer up their seat for the most part. If there is some extreme case like some obviously infirm person and no one offers them a seat I may be annoyed at the bus (or whatever) in general because the odds are that someone needs the seat less than the infirm person, but not at someone in particular.

It is entirely my own code and world view and today's society is so blasted confusing with what is expected and what is offensive I'm not going to think badly of someone for not doing something like offering his or her seat in most cases.

[levdrakon]

I avoid the issue by just getting up and standing whenever things get crowded. I don't feel like dealing with the stink eye looks because I'm either not a gentleman or I'm a chauvinist pig.

I *don't* think my status as a gentleman has anything to do with giving my seat to a woman. I stand, because I can, and I don't like stink eye.

[light, sweet, crude]

Giving up a seat or opening a door are both nice gestures, but not required (for me). And if offered a seat, unless I was particularly tired or sick, I would probably refuse politely. After all, I don't see that I'm more deserving of a seat than anyone else.
Once I was walking into the library, and had a couple of books in my hands. Just as I got to the door a guy reached the door also and said 'oh, I got it'. So he opened the door, I said thanks and walked through. This library has a large foyer type area, so in about 15 feet there is another set of doors to get into the library itself. Well, I walk pretty fast, and when I reached the second door the guy was behind me, but I heard a distant 'I can get it!' I would have felt like an idiot waiting for someone to come open a door for me when I was already there and perfectly capable, so I half laughed and said 'that's OK, I got it'. I sit down to start reading, and a minute or two later this guy walks up and chews me up for not letting him open the door for me. Something about 'if someone is trying to be nice you should let them'. I think I was kind of taken aback at the time and gave a puzzled apology, but whenever I think about it now I get a bit indignant about that. I think as long as I am polite in the refusal, I shouldn't *have* to let anyone do anything for me!

[tiger lily]

Does a woman ever get to be a gentleman, if being a gentleman means performing some small act of good manners and responsibility for a companion's or stranger's well-being? I like doing such things.

I like doing those things too, and as a woman, I obviously don't feel it should be restricted to men - really, it just seems common decency, regardless of who offers and who accepts.

I always hold doors open for people coming in behind me, unless they are taking enough time that I'd end up looking like an unofficial doorperson. I think it's nice when someone holds the door for me, but that doesn't seem to happen as often. If offered a seat by a man on the train or some such, I'm not offended, but sometimes I'll say no - especially if I won't be on for many stops, or if the train is still filling up, since there's a chance that someone with kids/packages/etc. will be getting on after me. It's not meant in any bad way toward the man who offered.

As to waiting for a man to open a car door for me, well... back when I was a teenager, the father of a girl I babysat used to insist on doing this for me. It felt kind of silly to me, overly chivalrous considering I really needed no help, so one time I went ahead and got out of the car without waiting for him. You would have thought I'd committed a major crime, by his reaction. I'm sorry to say that freaked me out so much that if a man offered to do that nowadays, my first reaction would be major discomfort.

[levdrakon]

Does a woman ever get to be a gentleman, if being a gentleman means performing some small act of good manners and responsibility for a companion's or stranger's well-being?I like that. It seems that being a gentleman is reserved for men to do, and women to be the recipients of, and of course a true gentleman would never acknowledge a lack of reciprocity. The idea of women basically being "gentlemen" in return is nice. Especially since "being a lady" has apparently taken on negative connotations.

[constanze]

To those posters who claim that manners or good behaviour never go out of style (or that they do it because they are gentlemen), I'm confused: to what kind of ladies does it apply? Are all women automatically ladies to those self-professed gentlemen, or only those who dress daintly? Because I wear jeans and sensible shoes, and I can't remember anybody offering me a seat on a subway or bus because of my gender. I do however get up to offer my seat to elderly looking people (of both genders), and to handicapped*.

* Although people who wear the three dots or have some other handicap not related to standing often say "no, thank you" at this offer.

Or maybe people over here are more emanicapted from old-fashioned notions of gender behaviour. While in the 60s, men were expected to pay the restaurant bill, nowadays nobody bats an eye when I pay the bill instead of my fiance, or if we split it (depending on how much money we can afford at the moment).

On the old homepage, there was in the "Teeming Millions" - the irregular journal - a very thought-provoking article by one of the female dopers about why so-called chivalry is wrong, by going to the basics of it. The gist as I remember it was that by holding doors open, paying the restaurant bill and bringing flowers, women are reduced into a role where they can only pay with one currency - sex - because that's how it fits into that system. Not that everybody who acts like a "gentleman" and is chivalrous is activly thinking of having sex with that particular woman, but that no other way of payback is acceptable under that code.

That's why I think it's better - as many of the previous posters have indicated - to only look at real disabilites that make sittting down preferable. Just turn off your inner monologue: your are a real gentleman if you treat all *people* nicely, not only women.

And as woman, I don't feel special when people open the car door or the restaurant door. (I do appreciate it at work when my arms are full or I'm pushing a cart - but that's not gender. I also sometimes hold doors open for my male superiors - out of politeness, or because I'm first.) I feel as if they think I'm infirm/weak or something which is old-fashioned. As an earlier poster said, having a vagina is not an illness.

This thread reminded me of a charming story by the old-fashioned writer Jo Hannes Roessler (written in the 50s, when times still were old-fashioned), where he explained how, when riding the street car, he gives up his seat for a young 20sth. woman, while letting the old white-haired woman stand, and gets the evil eye for it: because he knows the young woman works in shop standing on her feet all day and therefore, really needs to sit down, while the old woman works part-time at the cinema and sits all the time anyway, so she can stand a short time.

[alexandra]

I don't think I've ever been offered a seat because I'm a woman. Nor do I remember witnessing it. It strikes me as odd.

I've often wondered how people can be so selfish as to not give up their seats to a pregnant woman, and felt rather guilty the other day when I failed to do so inadvertently (along with a bunch of other people). Just the tendency to block out everyone else on the train/bus I guess....

[Jragon]

I don't think I've ever been offered a seat because I'm a woman. Nor do I remember witnessing it. It strikes me as odd.

I've often wondered how people can be so selfish as to not give up their seats to a pregnant woman, and felt rather guilty the other day when I failed to do so inadvertently (along with a bunch of other people). Just the tendency to block out everyone else on the train/bus I guess....

Once I didn't give up my seat to a pregnant woman on the bus. I must've had a look of abject horror on my face or something when I realized it, because when I got up (to leave) and looked at her trying to get comfortable standing she said "it's okay, you were reading!" really cheerfully, I still felt so bad though.

[rowrrbazzle]

I sit down to start reading, and a minute or two later this guy walks up and chews me up for not letting him open the door for me. Something about 'if someone is trying to be nice you should let them'. I think I was kind of taken aback at the time and gave a puzzled apology, but whenever I think about it now I get a bit indignant about that. I think as long as I am polite in the refusal, I shouldn't *have* to let anyone do anything for me!I agree with you. Most of the time I've offered people seats or other assistance I've been turned down. I never objected, although I was puzzled the first few times. But I finally realized that if they specifically said they didn't need help, ignoring or dismissing that would be patronizing.

[jsgoddess]

I'm hardly the most experienced person at riding on public transport, but I like to stand, generally. I get motion sickness, so I don't like to ride sideways or backward and standing seems to keep me feeling better.

As for the door situation, what I hate is when someone will hold open a door from the inside so you have to squeeze past them. It's always men, it seems, and they just won't go out the door to get out of your way, noooo, they have to push it open really awkwardly while you're trying to go through.

If you do that? Don't do that!

[1010011010]

What about the scenario where you both get on the train/bus at the same time and there's an empty seat there?In this scenario, I'd probably give the other passenger a chance to take the seat. If they don't take it, I'll sit in it.

As for already having a seat...
Ascribing infirmity is not manners or gentlemanly. If there's someone I think might prefer to have a seat, I might attempt conversation, see if they indicate interest in my seat, and then offer.

Someone who just looks like they've had a tiring day may qualify.
If your supposed claim is girly bits, probably not going to happen.When I'm going to go somewhere with my dad and we're heading to the car, he always goes to the passenger side and unlocks and opens the door for me first, and then go to the driver's side and lets himself in. And I'm a guy. (Of course, when we're getting out of the car it's each man to himself.) I've always thought it was strange and have told him multiple times it's not necessary, but he still does it!He's putting you out as bait for any crazed axe murderers in the back seat.

[KarlGrenze]

To those posters who claim that manners or good behaviour never go out of style (or that they do it because they are gentlemen), I'm confused: to what kind of ladies does it apply? Are all women automatically ladies to those self-professed gentlemen, or only those who dress daintly? Because I wear jeans and sensible shoes, and I can't remember anybody offering me a seat on a subway or bus because of my gender. I do however get up to offer my seat to elderly looking people (of both genders), and to handicapped*.


Must be location, as I've been offered seats even though I usually wear jeans and T-shirts (female). And I generally accept them, of course. Only if my stop is coming soon or I see someone immediately around me that I think deserves it more do I refuse.

Which is why I'm a bit confused at the number of women that say that unless they're with their arms full/really tired/pregnant, something along those lines, they politely refuse. Huh?

Again, it's probably related to upbringing, but if someone offers me a seat (which I don't think most people deny it is more comfortable than standing, usually) I will not turn it down... nor start thinking about deep sociological implications. I just smile, thanks, and take it. After all, it is not something that happens too often, and sometimes it makes my (otherwise tired and crappy) day.

[starryspice]

It seems strange to me that others find it strange that this is done- it has always been standard in my life. (Though I do wonder if it is still polite to light a cigarette for a female companion).

Given all the replies in this thread, it is apparent that giving up your seat and holding open the door and all other "gentlemanly" actions are not standard at all. The second page of this thread seems to be pretty split down the middle as to whether it's even ok to continue to do these actions.

The thing is, I consider my husband to be a gentleman, in the sense of the word that means well-mannered. He does not open doors for me (unless he gets there first), he does not carry all the groceries, he does not pay the bill at dinner (we share a checking account anyway, but it's about half and half), he rarely buys me flowers or chocolates. These are all meaningless, outdated symbols. And quite frankly, if he did something like insist on paying the bill or insist on opening car doors, I would feel uncomfortable in my relationship with him, not special. My husband is a gentleman because he treats me as an equal - we make decisions together, we share our burdens with each other, we both work and we talk to each other about our work, and what is important to us. If we're going to bandy around the term "gentleman" as meaning "well-mannered" then let's have it mean treating all others with respect, rather than opening car doors for women.

Does a woman ever get to be a gentleman, if being a gentleman means performing some small act of good manners and responsibility for a companion's or stranger's well-being?

This says it all way better (and more succinctly!) than I could. Can I use this as a sig? :)

[Silver Fire]

Which is why I'm a bit confused at the number of women that say that unless they're with their arms full/really tired/pregnant, something along those lines, they politely refuse.
I am, too. I'm capable of standing, opening doors, pulling out my own seat at a dinner table, etc., but I still appreciate when a man offers his seat or grabs a door for me. I also wouldn't mind a date ordering for me (ordering to the waitperson; I assume there would be some discussion of what I actually wanted but I admit this hasn't ever happened), taking my coat, etc.

I'm sure there's a line where I'd start to think things were a little weird but I'm not sure where that line would be. A man draping his top coat over a puddle so I don't have to muddy my shoes? I dunno.

[kasuo]

It's outdated because chivalry has been killed off but I still do it anyway.

[amarinth]

Does a woman ever get to be a gentleman, if being a gentleman means performing some small act of good manners and responsibility for a companion's or stranger's well-being? I like doing such things.I also like doing such things, and when I do, I think of myself (or other women who do such things) as a "lady." I don't see that as a negative term at all and has nothing to do with . But, YMMV.

Which is why I'm a bit confused at the number of women that say that unless they're with their arms full/really tired/pregnant, something along those lines, they politely refuse. Huh?When it happens, I'm thinking "we're both equally tired, uncomfortable, and have to suffer through a long day. And he got there first. He wins." It seems more fair to me. Again, I appreciate the offer. But for me, taking his seat when I don't really need it would be inconsiderate of me.

[constanze]

Must be location, as I've been offered seats even though I usually wear jeans and T-shirts

Do you mind if I ask where you live? NRW? Because I'm in Munich, and newcomers (esp. from the Rhineregion) often complain how "cold" the natives are, esp. in the subway.

(female).

I wouldn't have guessed that based on your male username!

[constanze]

The thing is, I consider my husband to be a gentleman, in the sense of the word that means well-mannered. He does not open doors for me (unless he gets there first), he does not carry all the groceries, he does not pay the bill at dinner (we share a checking account anyway, but it's about half and half), he rarely buys me flowers or chocolates. These are all meaningless, outdated symbols. And quite frankly, if he did something like insist on paying the bill or insist on opening car doors, I would feel uncomfortable in my relationship with him, not special. My husband is a gentleman because he treats me as an equal - we make decisions together, we share our burdens with each other, we both work and we talk to each other about our work, and what is important to us. If we're going to bandy around the term "gentleman" as meaning "well-mannered" then let's have it mean treating all others with respect, rather than opening car doors for women.

Bolding mine.

Seconded. That's why I dislike these so-called acts of chivalry because they are only aimed at women, not at all humans. And the idea that women need to be put into a special class of their own apart from normal humans doesn't make me feel appreciated, it makes me feel patronized (which I dislike).
Just going by a feeling, not cites and proper comparision, my guess is that the history of human societies, and in cultures today, the more the guys proclaim to revere and "respect" the women, the less rights women have. So I prefer to be treated like a full adult human being and stand in the subway, instead of getting a seat but not all rights. (Yes, I know not everybody who offers me a seat wants to take my rights away...)

[KarlGrenze]

Do you mind if I ask where you live? NRW? Because I'm in Munich, and newcomers (esp. from the Rhineregion) often complain how "cold" the natives are, esp. in the subway.


Not even close. Caribbean (Puerto Rican) born and raised. ;) The last ancestors who came from Germany exchanged that cold country for sunshine over 150 years ago. Good idea, too. ;)

But yea, I second the "cold" comment sometimes. :)

amirinth, that makes some sense. At the same time, I know that for me at least, when someone declines an offer (of something, however small) that I give... well, I don't feel "right" either. And if it is done repetitively, I find it a bit inconsiderate, too.

Certainly, I feel that if someone gives up the seat that person is either not that tired or willing (for whatever reason) to stay standing for a while. So no, I don't feel inconsiderate taking his place (but I see your point better).

[Chronos]

I always figured the etiquette was to stand first, and if you say anything at all, say it while or after you're standing. But just standing up and perhaps a friendly smile should be enough.

And if it looks likely that all of the seats on a bus or subway will fill up, I'll stand anyway, regardless of who's waiting. Most of my work and leisure activity is done while sitting; I can afford to stand for an hour or less on a bus.

[Interconnected Series of Tubes]

If you're referring to offering a seat to a woman specifically because she's a woman than of course it's outdated. Chivalry is, at its core, a fundamentally sexist belief (behavior?) system. Some people are vehemently opposed to treating the genders differently, and I can understand the sentiment if not the vitriol. Others, myself included, do enjoy realizing some of the more traditional gender roles (it's a pseudosexual thing really, apron-clad housewives are just hawt) but I make an effort never to impose my personal ideals on the public at large.

That being said, if I'm going to offer my seat to somebody, it's going to be a female, or somebody obviously handicapped or senior. I'd never offer my seat to an able-bodied man.