Could Kim Jong-il just be a body double?

[Swallowed My Cellphone]

There's a goofy hypothesis by a Japanese (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=627370) scholar, that claims the North Korean leader has been dead since 2003 and for the past five years it's been various body doubles standing in for him?

Looking at the pic in the links, I"m just thinking the guy's gotten a big more saggy in the face, but I was wondering... how feasible would this really be? Could a country that is so tightly controlled and secretive actually get away with having a doppleganger take his place indefinitely?

I'm not wondering so much about whether or not the Japanese scholar's claims are true, but whether or not it would be feasible for a nation to successfully have a double paraded around as their leader for 5 years.

[cmyk]

I have no idea if he actually died in 2003 due to diabetes as purported. Really, I just wanted to stop in and point to this awesome documentary (http://www.vbs.tv/video.php?id=1438428757) from vbs.tv about a couple journalists getting into North Korea. After watching that, I would think anything's possible.

It's a 14 parter, about 5 minutes to a part. Funny, mesmerizing, and sometimes sad and horrible.

[Bear_Nenno]

He took me to his palace and he told me his secret. 'I am not Kim Jong Il' he said. 'My name is Lee; I inherited the country from the previous Kim Jong Il, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from is not the real Kim Jong Il either. His name was Park. The real Kim Jong Il has been dead 15 years and hidden in a temple in Pyongyang.

[Chimera]

'I am not Kim Jong Il' he said.

Classic.

Now I'll have to call him the Dread Leader Kim Jong Il.

[Siam Sam]

There is a convoluted method I have to use to do a Search on this Board now, but I'm glad I took the trouble to do it this time, because I was about to start a thread on this very same topic. Just to throw it in, here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4692472.ece) is an article in The Times of London that gives some more information.

Excerpt: "Kim’s poor health has been the subject of speculation for decades. The professor’s contribution is to cite Russian and Chinese sources saying he had diabetes and illnesses of the heart, liver and lungs, with depression thrown in.

"There have been persistent reports that a stand-in appears for Kim at military parades and he is notoriously reclusive. He did not appear in public to receive the Olympic torch in Pyongyang on April 28.

"The professor argues that no substantive policy decisions have been taken since North Korea joined nuclear disarmament talks in 2003."

[Marley23]

with depression thrown in.
What do you get for the man who has everything?

I think it's widely agreed that Saddam Hussein had body doubles to throw off assassins, but even so, in almost any country but North Korea this would be totally absurd. With North Korea, it's more "that's bizarre, but it kind of figures." Although it looks like the same guy in both pictures to me.

[Siam Sam]

BBC TV speculated just a few moments ago about whether he'll show up today (Tuesday) for North Korea's 60th-anniversary parade. They're mentioning the death rumors.

[Swallowed My Cellphone]

"There have been persistent reports that a stand-in appears for Kim at military parades and he is notoriously reclusive. He did not appear in public to receive the Olympic torch in Pyongyang on April 28. "If he was just ill, could see using stand-ins for functions where all he does is stand there and wave. But if he's dead why would they keep the charade going?

[cmyk]

...with depression thrown in.

So ronery. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDBcGzHAt5Q)


.

[Kid_A]

Has N. Korean leader Kim Jong Il suffered a stroke? (http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/495872)

No real evidence but it's just something to throw out there.

[Musicat]

Who would succeed Him?

[Hockey Monkey]

He took me to his palace and he told me his secret. 'I am not Kim Jong Il' he said. 'My name is Lee; I inherited the country from the previous Kim Jong Il, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from is not the real Kim Jong Il either. His name was Park. The real Kim Jong Il has been dead 15 years and hidden in a temple in Pyongyang.

Can I get a franchise?

[Siam Sam]

If he was just ill, could see using stand-ins for functions where all he does is stand there and wave. But if he's dead why would they keep the charade going?

Why indeed. Remember, his father is still the official head of state even 14 years after his death. There's no accounting for what goes on in that country. It's like a black hole for logic.

[The Scrivener]

You'd think that careful analysis and measurements of facial features and ratios and the Dear Leader's height would produce a definitive answer.

If they use a body double with uncannily similar facial features but who is a couple of inches too tall, that'd be hard to consistently hide, wouldn't it? The regime would have to ensure that "Too-Tall Kim" isn't exposed, by similarly adjusting the heights of the top generals and advisors (with shoe lifts, probably) who stand next to him at these events.

And what of fingerprints? You'd think the Japanese, South Koreans or Americans could manage to get their hands on a current print (from a drinking glass, pen, document) and compare it to one collected years ago. Surely someone in one these countries' intel services is doing this!

[Tom Tildrum]

Who would succeed Him?

Matt Cassel. The worrisome thing is that he hasn't ruled a country since high school.

[The Scrivener]

Let's hope that "Kim Matt Cassel" isn't so reckless as to lob the long bomb, 'cause that'd be a problem.

[Cluricaun]

He's not dead, he's just been playing a lot of poker over at Castro's place.

[straight man]

To speculate on an answer, probably not. The BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7607513.stm) is reporting that Kim Jong-Il was notably absent from the largest (i.e. most important to attend) military parade ever, and that various intelligence services believe he has had a stroke. I have a hard time believing that a body double wouldn't be used in such a circumstance; hence, if there was no sign of Kim Jong-Il yesterday, there probably is no body double. My $.02.

[Siam Sam]

To speculate on an answer, probably not. The BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7607513.stm) is reporting that Kim Jong-Il was notably absent from the largest (i.e. most important to attend) military parade ever, and that various intelligence services believe he has had a stroke. I have a hard time believing that a body double wouldn't be used in such a circumstance; hence, if there was no sign of Kim Jong-Il yesterday, there probably is no body double. My $.02.

Ah ha! But then, with all the recent talk about body doubles, they may not have allowed a body double to appear, knowing that people would take that as proof of no body doubles.

[DocCathode]

So ronery. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDBcGzHAt5Q)

Rice a ronery?

Bear Nenno Where is that bit from? I can't place it.

[straight man]

Ah ha! But then, with all the recent talk about body doubles, they may not have allowed a body double to appear, knowing that people would take that as proof of no body doubles.

Sure, but a body double would have to be more for the benefit of the North Korean people than for internationals, who don't really give a damn about Kim either way. And your theory is headed toward CT-range; it's a bit over the top, even for North Korea. (And if that's what they were trying to do, their timing clearly was off – it appeared from the article that the reports of a stroke were more than speculation.)

[Johnny L.A.]

Bear Nenno Where is that bit from? I can't place it.

Team America: World Police.

[Siam Sam]

Sure, but a body double would have to be more for the benefit of the North Korean people than for internationals, who don't really give a damn about Kim either way. And your theory is headed toward CT-range; it's a bit over the top, even for North Korea. (And if that's what they were trying to do, their timing clearly was off – it appeared from the article that the reports of a stroke were more than speculation.)
I accuse you, sir, of being a North Korean disinformation agent.

[straight man]

I accuse you, sir, of being a North Korean disinformation agent.
Oh my.
Now it's time to go participate in some political GD threads. Tee hee hee.

[Rick]

Team America: World Police.

Better go back and look at that again Johnny.
He took me to his palace and he told me his secret. 'I am not Kim Jong Il' he said. 'My name is Lee; I inherited the country from the previous Kim Jong Il, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from is not the real Kim Jong Il either. His name was Park. The real Kim Jong Il has been dead 15 years and hidden in a temple in Pyongyang. This is a riff on the Dread Pirate Roberts speech from The Princess Bride

ETA:cmyk posted the clip from TAWP

[Marley23]

Ah ha! But then, with all the recent talk about body doubles, they may not have allowed a body double to appear, knowing that people would take that as proof of no body doubles.
Nah, I have to agree with straight man. Whenever Kim dies, the world's going to find out relatively fast. The only people who might not find out are the North Korean people because their media is so tightly controlled. And if there really was a Kim body double for the last five years, or any time in the future, the most likely reason would be the country's unsettled succession - he's never picked a successor, at least since disowning one of his sons for sneaking into EuroDisney or whatever that was about - and not convincing the outside world Kim was in control.

[DeadlyAccurate]

I just finished that documentary cmyk linked to, and I was wondering about something. How did they manage to film without getting arrested?

[cmyk]

I just finished that documentary cmyk linked to, and I was wondering about something. How did they manage to film without getting arrested?

They didn't really say, other than they only allowed him a simple video camera (and a still camera?). I think, to a certain extent, N. Korea wanted the tour to be documented, since they go through all that trouble of putting on pretenses that the country is enjoying prosperity. They want the ruse to get out, not the reality. They're just stupid enough to think the rest of the world is buying it.

[Starving Artist]

What do you get for the man who has everything?

Penicillin?