Should I vote in November?

[Alessan]

[Mods - this may be better fit for IMHO. Your call]

Of course you should vote, I hear you saying. What kind of stupid question is that? Voting is a sacred duty... and I agree with that.

But it's a bit more complicated than that.

I am a U.S. citizen from birth. My parents are both natives of New Jersey, and I grew up in an English-speaking household. I speak perfect English, and I make an effort to keep up with American politics and culture, in no small way through the SDMB. I hold a U.S. passport an I have no intention of returning it.

However:

I was born here in Israel and have lived here for 27 of my 34 years, have served in the military, have married and raised a child here. I do not have divided loyalties - I am an Israeli first, and an American a distant second. While I am very, very fond of America, I don't believe a citizen may serve two flags.

Now let me ask you again - in a world where so may people don't get to vote even once, should I allow myself to vote twice?




On, and before you ask - I'm registered to vote in New York; and I haven't decided who to for for yet, if I do vote.

[Grumman]

That depends. Who are you considering voting for? :p

If there's no question of whether you're allowed to vote, I would. "Serving two flags" is a non-issue to me, if you can do your part to make sure the best possible candidate is the next U.S. President, you should.

[cckerberos]

I wouldn't.

[Revenant Threshold]

No, i'd say not.

[leander]

I do not have divided loyalties - I am an Israeli first, and an American a distant second. While I am very, very fond of America, I don't believe a citizen may serve two flags.

Therein lies your answer. Regardless of your passport, if you do not believe yourself to be a citizen of the US, then you should not vote.

(Alternatively, how would you feel about an American-Israeli in the opposite position voting there?)

[sailor]

IMHO if America gives you the right to vote that is all that counts. Furthermore, I do not believe in nationalities, I believe in humankind. If you can affect the world for the better then you should.

[Jack Batty]

If you're allowed to, and you want to, where does "should" enter the picture.

No one can tell you not to.

[PaulParkhead]

I'd say leander has it: if your belief is that you cannot serve two flags, and can't be a citizen of two countries in a meaningful way, you should not vote.

I'd vote, though. I've never served any flag, and I don't believe that I exist to serve nation states.

[Alessan]

First of all, I can vote - I voted in 1992, 1996 and 2000 (although I was living in New York in 2000, so there was less of a dilemma then). I forgot to apply for an absentee ballot in 2004, and I'm quickly approaching the cutoff date for 2008.

So yes, legally speaking, I have as much a legal right to vote in the Presidential elections as anyone here. The fact that I have a legal right to do something doesn't mean I should do it, though.

Second of all, supposing I do vote - should I vote based on my own interests, and support the candidate I feel is best for Israel? Or, as I am voting as a U.S. citizen, should I vote for the candidate I feel would be best for the U.S.? This is assuming that they are not the same person, of course, which may well be the case.

[Oy!]

I think sailor summed it up perfectly. Vote not as an American, but as a citizen of humanity. Vote for the candidate you believe best for the world in its entirety.

Apply for that absentee ballot. You always have the option of not using it.

[leander]

First of all, I can vote - I voted in 1992, 1996 and 2000 (although I was living in New York in 2000, so there was less of a dilemma then). I forgot to apply for an absentee ballot in 2004, and I'm quickly approaching the cutoff date for 2008.

So yes, legally speaking, I have as much a legal right to vote in the Presidential elections as anyone here. The fact that I have a legal right to do something doesn't mean I should do it, though.

Second of all, supposing I do vote - should I vote based on my own interests, and support the candidate I feel is best for Israel? Or, as I am voting as a U.S. citizen, should I vote for the candidate I feel would be best for the U.S.? This is assuming that they are not the same person, of course, which may well be the case.

Ok, first off -- since you're voting in NY, then practically speaking your vote won't matter. Not one bit.

Ethically, your vote will matter, mostly to you and others who may be in your position (or the exact opposite position).

So consider this -- an American citizen who has lived in the US most of their life, but who just so happens to have an Israeli passport. What if at some point they have to choose between a candidate who takes a hard-line approach to Israel (and a sympathetic approach to Palestine) but who also agrees with them on most domestic issues? And Israel is only a small matter to the bigger picture? How would you want them to act?

It's not an easy answer. As I said, practically, your vote won't matter. But what will matter is how you -- and others like you -- consider your positions in the future.

[akennett]

The first thing I would do, if I were in your shoes, is apply for the absentee ballot. That way, you have time to decide whether or not you want to use it.

After that, comes the decision making. You obviously are entitled to vote. Personally, I see nothing wrong with someone with dual loyalties voting in both places -- you still seem to have some attachment to this country, even if it is less than to the other, and your vote here could have a big effect on policies dealing with the region of your stronger loyalties.

I think my final question would be this: are you now, or could you become, knowledgeable enough about the candidates, issues, and their stances to make an informed choice? If so, then I would more than welcome your vote as one of an unfortunate few cast that way.

[magellan01]

I think sailor summed it up perfectly. Vote not as an American, but as a citizen of humanity. Vote for the candidate you believe best for the world in its entirety.

Apply for that absentee ballot. You always have the option of not using it.

I couldn't disagree with this more. The vote is to elect the President of a particular country. If you do decide to vote, it seems to me that you have a responsibility to do so in a way that would most benefit that country. If you cannot do that, I don't think you should vote. If you can, I see nothing wrong with it. Of course, if you believe that the person who would most benefit the U.S. would also most benefit the world at large, then the calculation becomes easier. But you indicate that that might not be how you view things.

But I, for one, do commend you on taking your voting so seriously.

[Oy!]

I couldn't disagree with this more. The vote is to elect the President of a particular country. If you do decide to vote, it seems to me that you have a responsibility to do so in a way that would most benefit that country. If you cannot do that, I don't think you should vote. If you can, I see nothing wrong with it. Of course, if you believe that the person who would most benefit the U.S. would also most benefit the world at large, then the calculation becomes easier. But you indicate that that might not be how you view things.

But I, for one, do commend you on taking your voting so seriously.

And that's one of the ways you and I differ most profoundly, magellan. I view myself as a human first, an American second, and a New Jerseyan (or -ite) third. I will admit that I value my immediate family more than humanity at large.

ETA: But I agree with your commendation. :)

[Captain Amazing]

If I were you, in those circumstances, I wouldn't. I don't know about some of the other people in this thread, but I'm not a citizen of humanity. I'm a citizen of the United States. And while you are too, like you said, you're an Israeli first, and an American second.

But it's your decision, of course.

[magellan01]

And that's one of the ways you and I differ most profoundly, magellan. I view myself as a human first, an American second, and a New Jerseyan (or -ite) third. I will admit that I value my immediate family more than humanity at large.

You are a human residing in a particular place on the globe. You are subject to its rules and laws. Those rules and laws will affect you and your neighbors much, much more than they will affect someone living in Chad, New Zealand, or China.

[Influential Panda]

Ok, first off -- since you're voting in NY, then practically speaking your vote won't matter. Not one bit.
If by practically speaking you mean standing a chance to change the outcome of the election, no one's vote matters. Not one bit. You don't vote to affect the outcome, you vote to have your voice heard, to send a message to Washington. There's power in numbers--just think if Bush had gotten 80% of the vote in 2000; the outcome wouldn't have changed, but the would would be very different today.

[Oy!]

You are a human residing in a particular place on the globe. You are subject to its rules and laws. Those rules and laws will affect you and your neighbors much, much more than they will affect someone living in Chad, New Zealand, or China.

I agree. Nonetheless, my first concern is for the welfare of humanity at large, then for the welfare of the nation. ETA: That doesn't mean I am able to influence them equally.

Influential Panda, in what way do you think things would have been different if GWB had been elected with an 80% majority? From where I sit, it looked like he behaved as if he had been.

[Noone Special]

Data point: I'm in exactly the same situation as the OP (American born, hold a US passport, living in Israel for over 40 of my nearly 45 years. Army, friends, wife, kids....)

I asked myself this very same question some years ago, and I've settled this question with myself, deciding not to vote in US elections, for the reason outlined by many -- I will not necessarily be able to bring myself to vote for the candidate who is, IMO, best for the US.

FWIW.

[DocCathode]

My parents are both natives of New Jersey,

I'm so very sorry.

[Oy!]

I'm so very sorry.

Why? I've always rather liked it. I grew up in dairy farm country in NW New Jersey. It was lovely. Now I'm in Trenton, which isn't scenic, but has some beautiful architecture, and the least expensive real estate in conjunction with some of the hottest job market in the country. This is a good place to live.

[leander]

If by practically speaking you mean standing a chance to change the outcome of the election, no one's vote matters. Not one bit. You don't vote to affect the outcome, you vote to have your voice heard, to send a message to Washington. There's power in numbers--just think if Bush had gotten 80% of the vote in 2000; the outcome wouldn't have changed, but the would would be very different today.

I don't think you understand the US electoral process.

[sailor]

You are a human residing in a particular place on the globe. You are subject to its rules and laws. Those rules and laws will affect you and your neighbors much, much more than they will affect someone living in Chad, New Zealand, or China.Those rules and laws says he is entitled to vote and that is all that matters. If America did not want him to vote the law would reflect that.

And again, I think it is the duty of all of us to make the world a better place and not to make a choice which might benefit a certain nation in the short term but make the world a worse place for everybody in the longer term.

[BrotherCadfael]

I think sailor summed it up perfectly. Vote not as an American, but as a citizen of humanity. Vote for the candidate you believe best for the world in its entirety.Somehow, I seriously doubt that Oy! would say this if he (or she) thought that Alessan was likely to vote for McCain...

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

<ahem>
If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for ... but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong. If this is too blind for your taste, consult some well-meaning fool (there is always one around) and ask his advice. Then vote the other way. This enables you to be a good citizen (if such is your wish) without spending the enormous amount of time on it that a truly intelligent exercise of franchise requires.The above quotation is from Robert A. Heinlein.

[foolsguinea]

You know, Alessan, you & I don't see eye to eye on some issues. I have no particular faith that you would vote with or against my choices. But I think perhaps there's a point here you haven't considered.

The USA is a superpower. It's hegemonic. Even your country is under its wing. There are literally a billion people who will be affected by its decisions that can't vote at all. Never mind taxation without representation, how about embargoes (e.g., Cuba), intimidation (throw a dart at the globe--aim roughly at South America), interference in one's land's border policy (e.g., Mexico/Guatemala), even basic freedom of movement (e.g., unintended consequences of the Iraq invasion).

Why should you be concerned that you're not really an American in your heart when this decision will affect a billion others who are even less American?

[leander]

Those rules and laws says he is entitled to vote and that is all that matters. If America did not want him to vote the law would reflect that.

And again, I think it is the duty of all of us to make the world a better place and not to make a choice which might benefit a certain nation in the short term but make the world a worse place for everybody in the longer term.

I don't want people whose loyalties lie with another country to be influencing our politics. I simply do not think it is ethical. And I think it is too much of a slippery slope.

Imagine if several million dual citizens decided to influence the vote in a small country like Israel, where a few million votes could make a significant difference. Would you be okay with that?

[DocCathode]

consult some well-meaning fool (there is always one around) and ask his advice. Then vote the other way.

According to that logic, you should vote. Cuz I think you shouldn't.

[sailor]

I don't want people whose loyalties lie with another country to be influencing our politics. I simply do not think it is ethical. And I think it is too much of a slippery slope. As I said, I believe our first loyalty should be to humanity. And whether you think it is ethical or not is irrelevant. If you think it is unethical then you can work to change the law but for now he has the right to vote and I would even say a certain duty.
Imagine if several million dual citizens decided to influence the vote in a small country like Israel, where a few million votes could make a significant difference. Would you be okay with that? I would be fine with that if the Israeli people decided that is what they wanted and it probably IS that way as many Israelis hold other nationalities as well.

Furthermore, if more people could vote in more than one country I can ssure you that would be a good thing because it would contribute to defusing tensions and avoiding wars.

European countries are gradually giving voting rights to other EU citizens and even to non-EU citizens and I think it is a very good thing.

Again, I am a citizen of the world first and foremost and my priorities are for certain moral principles, not for any particular people. I believe those who vote for a people as opposed as for principles are doing the world a disservice.

[leander]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is fine by me as it appears no amount of arguing will sway you from your "citizen of the world" position.

I shall now find 4 million close friends to gain dual citizenship and take over Sweden. Pretty girls and nice summers and all.

[Measure for Measure]

Ok, first off -- since you're voting in NY, then practically speaking your vote won't matter. Not one bit. FYI: NY has more than one close race for the House of Representatives. It's not just about the Presidency.

[leander]

FYI: NY has more than one close race for the House of Representatives. It's not just about the Presidency.

You're right, I stand corrected. On the Congressional, State and Local level his vote may matter greatly.

[erislover]

Vote.

[Alessan]

Thank for the advice, everyone.

Now-

Let me address the whole "citizen of the world" thing.

I am not a citizen of the world. The world has not offered me citizenship, and I doubt I am high on its waiting list. Which is OK, because there are parts of the world I care about more than others. To be blunt, I the part of the world I care about more are the parts that care about me.

So yes, I will vote according to my own interests. I'm not ashamed of that.

However, Leander also made a strong point - I would not be happy if thousands of people outside Israel voted for Israeli elections (and indeed, Israel does not have an absentee ballot system). What right do people sitting comfortably overseas have to tell me how to run my country? If you want to get involved, come here and involve yourself, physically. Politics has no room for dilettantes.

In short, I still have a lot to think about.



Oh and DocCathode - you got a problem with New Jersey!?

(Actually, my dad is from Teaneck, which means that he thinks of himself as a New Yorker who happened to grow up outside of New York; while my mom is from Atlantic City, which is more of an alternate dimension)

[MOIDALIZE]

Given the bonds between the U.S. and Israel, I'd say you have more of a stake in the upcoming election than you seem to think.

[sailor]

Thank for the advice, everyone.

Now-

Let me address the whole "citizen of the world" thing.

I am not a citizen of the world. The world has not offered me citizenship, and I doubt I am high on its waiting list. Which is OK, because there are parts of the world I care about more than others. To be blunt, I the part of the world I care about more are the parts that care about me.

So yes, I will vote according to my own interests. I'm not ashamed of that.

However, Leander also made a strong point - I would not be happy if thousands of people outside Israel voted for Israeli elections (and indeed, Israel does not have an absentee ballot system). What right do people sitting comfortably overseas have to tell me how to run my country? If you want to get involved, come here and involve yourself, physically. Politics has no room for dilettantes.

In short, I still have a lot to think about.



Oh and DocCathode - you got a problem with New Jersey!?

(Actually, my dad is from Teaneck, which means that he thinks of himself as a New Yorker who happened to grow up outside of New York; while my mom is from Atlantic City, which is more of an alternate dimension) If that's the way you feel then the answer is clearly that you should not vote.

[foolsguinea]

consult some well-meaning fool (there is always one around) and ask his advice. Then vote the other way.According to that logic, you should vote. Cuz I think you shouldn't.*Ahem* :Points at own username: Perhaps rather he should not vote, since I think he should, & I am advertised as a fool. Admittedly, I am not reliably well-meaning, especially when it comes to Israeli interests.

[ElvisL1ves]

Alessan, you answered your own question. You said you consider yourself an Israeli first. I don't see more than one answer that can lead to.

[erislover]

However, Leander also made a strong point - I would not be happy if thousands of people outside Israel voted for Israeli elections (and indeed, Israel does not have an absentee ballot system). What right do people sitting comfortably overseas have to tell me how to run my country?If you are a citizen of the US, it is your country, for the purposes of voting. I suppose we could imagine fancy scenarios where millions of people have citizenship in some tiny country but live elsewhere, but that's not really the case here, and I find it 100% unlikely that it could ever, ever be the case; people would change the voting laws long before it became an issue.

Do you feel you have a horse in the race? If so, vote. If not, not. I don't think there's really a larger moral issue here.

[leander]

If I may add Alessan --

I find it entirely commendable that you would be so thoughtful and considerate in this matter. Speaks volumes, IMHO.