Who believes in "Creationism"?

[CannyDan]

In a recent conversation I maintained that "creationism" (meaning biblical literalism regarding Genesis as opposed to evolutionary science) is a minority position among Christians. And that it is primarily a fundamentalist Protestant American belief. But when challenged I find myself unable to offer any real proof. My google-fu apparently is insufficient.

Please help me -- on a worldwide basis, how many Christians are "creationists"? What denominations hold these beliefs, and which others do not? What are their actual numbers or percentages of Christians as a whole? I'm looking here for actual cites with numbers, not for widely held beliefs (that, like mine, I am embarassed to find are unsupported).

And also, please-- this is not a debate about the relative merits of these belief systems. Only a search for numbers holding them.

[yabob]

You're going to have a hard time getting concrete numbers because a large number of people probably don't actually give a crap about the issue one way or another, including people who count themselves "Christians". It matters very little to the average person's day-to-day life whether God waved a magic wand and created all the animals, or whether they evolved. Thus, they don't really think about it. But people don't really want to admit they don't think about it, so they will adopt some "belief" when asked on a survey. A belief which will probably come out different dependent on the context of the survey.

[Colibri]

At least in terms of official church doctrine, more than half of all Christians worldwide certainly belong to groups that do not require or stress Creationism. Slightly more than half of all Christians are Roman Catholic, and Catholicism is not literalist with regard to biblical creation accounts.

Now, I'm sure that there are many Catholics that do believe that the biblical account of creation is literal; however, this is not a matter of doctrine.

[Stranger On A Train]

If you go to the American Midwest you'll be astonished at the number of people who sincerely believe in dogmatic, by the book Creationism or some equally absurd interpretation thereof. The Catholic Church has long given up that position, but there are still groups of hard-core, pre-Vatican II Catholics who try to adhere to the literal interpretation of the Bible despite the paradoxes within.

Stranger

[CannyDan]

<snip>Slightly more than half of all Christians are Roman Catholic, and Catholicism is not literalist with regard to biblical creation accounts. <snip>

Thanks, that's a start. Who else is "non literalist"? European Christians? Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists? Some of each?

I doubt this is a random distribution. It seems there must be some "clumping" and those "clumps" can be at least approximated in names/denominations and numbers.

[Wendell Wagner]

Most "mainline" American protestant churches are non-literalist. This includes Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and some sorts of Baptists. Many of the members of these churches will say that they are creationists if they are asked on a survey. It's hard to say what they believe in, because the answers on the surveys change depending on what they ask.

[CannyDan]

When I wrote the OP I expected to be swiftly revealed as a fumbling incompetant, unable to do his own research. Now though (and I say this with all respect and gratitude for the submissions) I find that I am not alone. The responses above are identical to my own original statement, which is to say, long on supposition but short on citations.

When challenged, I was unable to support my assertions (that fervent creationists who outright reject evolution in favor of biblical literalism are a minority of Christians). I am still hoping for something more specific. Like, what is a "mainline" Protestant? What does a "mainline" Methodist call him/her-self? How many of them are there?

Perhaps this can be attacked from another direction. I seem to recall that these denominations have higher levels of organization. Don't individual Baptist churches 'belong' to some kind of larger association of Baptists? And the others, to their own? Like Catholic churches are part of worldwide Catholicism. Do these larger associations have position papers, or the equivalent? If so, is this a way to separate "mainline" from those who choose another interpretation?

Still just asking......

[thelurkinghorror]

I'll try to dig up a cite. At least in the US, Catholics have among the lowest amount of belief in creationism. Episcopalians/Anglicans are the same or just slightly more. Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Baptists follow roughly in that order.

Many religions aren't monolithic. You would find much higher belief in creationism among the Lutheran Missouri Synod than the ELCA.

[Johnny L.A.]

If you go to the American Midwest you'll be astonished at the number of people who sincerely believe in dogmatic, by the book Creationism or some equally absurd interpretation thereof.

At the forum attached to a gun auction site it's frightening to see the number of posters who believe in Creationism. It's almost as frightening as their spelling! :p

[dangermom]

I think you would have to do a very detailed survey, with people describing their own beliefs, to really find out. A lot of people will say 'creationism' to mean all sorts of different ideas--

--YEC of 7 days of 24 hours
--Creation took a long long time
--God guided everything from behind the scenes, but not so you can tell
--I haven't thought about it at all, nor do I care, but I believe in God, so that's creationism right?
--God started everything, let it all work itself out, and then put souls into Adam and Eve

There isn't a nice neat little list of 3 options where you can check one off and count exact numbers. People have all sorts of ideas, and a lot of them aren't worried about it at all.

[Captain Carrot]

When I wrote the OP I expected to be swiftly revealed as a fumbling incompetant, unable to do his own research. Now though (and I say this with all respect and gratitude for the submissions) I find that I am not alone. The responses above are identical to my own original statement, which is to say, long on supposition but short on citations..Keep in mind that it can take several hours for an expert to notice a thread in GQ, and this subject does not lend itself as well to definite answers as many others do.

[Jman]

Raised presbyterian, currently a practicing Lutheran.

I don't believe in the biblical creationism story. I do believe that God set in motion the chain of events starting with the big bang (or whatever preceded even that), and created the universe that way. Scientific discovery is more a 'how' it happened than anything. I believe in evolution, and none of the scientific discoveries conflict with my religious beliefs, as I have a very loose interpretation of the bible as far as how mysterious things were described.

This should probably be an IMHO question, though.

[CannyDan]

Captain Carrot, welcome back! Yes, I am patient.

dangermom, I agree it is (or can be) a complex issue with multiple nuances. But I suspect somebody somewhere has already done such a survey. After all, we all seem agreed that 'creationism' (loosely defined) is a minority position. thelurkinghorror even provides a ranking. We all must have some reason for this belief. But none of us can (yet) provide a cite for it.

Thanks again. Off to work now, will check back later.

[thelurkinghorror]

I can't find the original paper that ranked them, but here's a similar one (pdf (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~evansem/JCC_Pol_Evans.pdf)). It rolls Protestants into either Fundamentalist or Nonfundamentalist. It divides general belief in evolution into specific beliefs.

Wikipedia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution#Support_for_evolution_by_religious_bodies) has a good summary on specific religions.

[Northern Piper]

religioustolerance.org has an essay on this topic: Beliefs within Christian Faith Groups about Origins (http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_denom1.htm).

[Jophiel]

Polling Report (http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm) has some data regarding beliefs in this subject. Somewhere between 40-50% of those polled (this is US only, not globally) believe that God created man in our present form sometime in the last 10,000 years. The last poll in the section states that 44% believe that God created the world in six days, as per a literal interpretation of Genesis. Note that they were given an option to say "Well, God was involved in the creation of the universe..." but only 13% took that option vs 44% for a strict approach.

As noted, there's no strong Catholic push for "Creationism" in the strict sense. The Vatican runs some observatories and is quite open in saying that the universe is billions of years old. They seem open to the idea (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19961025/ai_n14084429) of evolution for the animal kingdom. However, the Vatican maintains that mankind's development (and our being imbued with a soul) is a direct result of divine intervention (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html) in the evolutionary process.With respect to the immediate creation of the human soul, Catholic theology affirms that particular actions of God bring about effects that transcend the capacity of created causes acting according to their natures. [...] Catholic theology affirms that that the emergence of the first members of the human species (whether as individuals or in populations) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention. Acting indirectly through causal chains operating from the beginning of cosmic history, God prepared the way for what Pope John Paul II has called “an ontological leap...the moment of transition to the spiritual.” While science can study these causal chains, it falls to theology to locate this account of the special creation of the human soul within the overarching plan of the triune God to share the communion of trinitarian life with human persons who are created out of nothing in the image and likeness of God, and who, in his name and according to his plan, exercise a creative stewardship and sovereignty over the physical universe.

[Mahaloth]

Is any time frame given in the Bible for how long Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden? I believe there is none in Genesis, but does the Bible indicate elsewhere how long they lived "pre-sin"?

I'm asking because I have heard the assertion that Adam and Eve could have lived there "zillions" of years, so to speak, with evolution and speciation(is that the right word?) going on around them.

Their ages(900+ years) would have started counting from the moment they sinned.

Is this a common view? Does the Bible contradict it?

[Una Persson]

Related column from Cecil: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2680/nearly-half-the-u-s-population-believes-the-earth-is-less-than-10-000-years-old

[Colibri]

This should probably be an IMHO question, though.

Not really, since we are looking for facts about percentages of religionists who ascribe to certain beliefs, not the opinions of particular individuals such as your post.

[CannyDan]

Thank you all.

Excellent cites, these really help to flesh out the discussion. (thelurkinghorror, Jophiel and Una Persson especially) The polling data itself serves to support the premise (creationism is a minority view) although narrowly. If nothing else, we can at least separate out Catholicism. What about its derivative, the Church of England?

And still no numbers of Christians of other specific denominations, USA and elsewhere. Merely further reinforcement of the discussion relating to "mainstream" versus non-mainstream views.

I'd like eventually to be able to provide an analysis like:

total Christians worldwide = X number
of X, Z% are Roman Catholic, viewpoint is 'Genesis is not literal history'
of X, Q% are "Liberal Lutheran", viewpoint is 'Genesis is not literal'
of X, R% are "Fundamental Lutheran", viewpoint is 'Genesis is literal' (I'm making these up for illustration)
etc, etc, etc to summarise at least most of X.

I'll do some more googling of my own and see what we can all find.

[Bobotheoptimist]

At the forum attached to a gun auction site it's frightening to see the number of posters who believe in Creationism. It's almost as frightening as their spelling! :p
Some people would loose there mind trying to read that stuff. Youd think their was noone that got passed third grade over their.

I don't know which forum Johnny is talking about, but one of those I frequent really does have way too many people like above. A few grammar nazi's fighting a losing battle (or "loosing", as they'd say), and I'd guess at least a quarter are literalistic in their interpretation of the bible. Young-earth creationists, that is. Another quarter are agnostic/atheist, and probably half are just there to talk about guns and shooting sports so I've no idea what their beliefs might be. That's not a representative sample of the general population, I hope.

[CC]

Does it seem self-evident that gun nuts and creationists and poorly educated people should show up in the same place?

[Una Persson]

Does it seem self-evident that gun nuts and creationists and poorly educated people should show up in the same place?
No.

[Colibri]

Does it seem self-evident that gun nuts and creationists and poorly educated people should show up in the same place?

[Moderating]

Let's not continue with this particular hijack, please. That goes for everyone. Let's stick to the issue of belief in creationism.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[Cyberhwk]

I can't find the original paper that ranked them, but here's a similar one (pdf (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~evansem/JCC_Pol_Evans.pdf)). Check out page 36. He cites Jack Chick. :D

[Švejk]

Thanks, that's a start. Who else is "non literalist"? European Christians? Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists? Some of each?

Do note that to speak of 'European Christians' is as ludicrous as speaking of American Christians, if not more so. That said, I'd venture that literal belief of the bible, or belief in miracles, for instance, is probably lower amongst most groups of Christians in Europe when compared to similar groups in the US.

[Northern Piper]

If nothing else, we can at least separate out Catholicism. What about its derivative, the Church of England?

The CoE has recently set up a series of webpages on Darwin, to commemorate the bicentennial of his birth: Church of England marks Darwin’s contribution to science as bicentenary approaches (http://www.cofe.anglican.org/news/pr6808.html). One of those pages is entitled: Good religion needs good science (http://www.cofe.anglican.org/darwin/malcolmbrown.html):In science, hypotheses are meant to be constantly tested. Subsequent generations have built on Darwin’s work but have not significantly undermined his fundamental theory of natural selection. There is nothing here that contradicts Christian teaching. Jesus himself invited people to observe the world around them and to reason from what they saw to an understanding of the nature of God (Matthew 6: 25–33). Christian theologians throughout the centuries have sought knowledge of the world and knowledge of God. For Thomas Aquinas there was no such thing as science versus religion; both existed in the same sphere and to the same end, the glory of God. Whilst Christians believe that the Bible contains all that we need to know to be saved from our sins, they do not claim that it is a compendium of all knowledge.

And a Times article on the purpose of the webpages: Anglicans back Darwin over 'noisy' Creationists (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4744194.ece).

See also this webpage of the Episcopal Church of the US: Science, Technology and Faith (http://www.episcopalchurch.org/19021_58398_ENG_HTM.htm):Has the Episcopal Church spoken on the creationists’ claims?

In 1982, General Convention passed a resolution (a) to “affirm its belief in the glorious ability of God to create in any manner,” (b) “and in this affirmation reject the rigid dogmatism of the ‘Creationist’ movement” and (c) further affirmed “our support of the scientists, educators, and theologians in the search for truth in this creation that God has given and entrusted to us.”

[CannyDan]

Excellent cites! Thanks to all. I'll attempt to synopsize.

My OP asked to support the contention that total rejection of evolutionary theory in favor of Biblical literalism (loosely described as 'creationism') is a minority belief among Christians. This appears to be confirmed.

Although adherents even within each denomination may vary in beliefs, thereby making it impossible to assign exact numbers to large groups, it still seems possible to reach some generalized conclusions.

Partial summary: (from http://www.strategicnetwork.org/pdf/kb16424.pdf - PDF!)
worldwide 2.1 billion Christians
breakdown:
1.1 billion Catholic
426 million "Independent" ("separated from, uninterested in, and independent of historic denominational Christianity")
375 million Protestant
219 million Orthodox
79 million Anglican
34 million "marginal" (Witnesses, Mormons, Theosophists, etc)

Catholicism and derivatives (Anglican, Episcopal) state that there is no conflict between science, including evolutionary theory, and faith. Therefore at least 1.2 billion of the 2.1 billion worldwide Christians are not 'creationists'.

It also seems likely that the Independents (as defined in the above paper) are unlikely to hold strong literalist views.

This leaves us with Protestants, some Marginals, and an unknown number of Orthodox. Taking them at 100% 'creationist' totals 628 million, or 30% of worldwide Christianity.

But this http://www.thearda.com/quickStats/qs_23_p.asp suggests that for American Protestants, when asked in a general social survey, at least 30% thought that evolution is either "definitely true" or "probably true".

A number of the citations upthread state that Protestants outside the USA have much lower adherence to 'creationist' views, but no data (that I could find or extract) proves this. But it seems reasonable to assign at least the same breakdown of belief as for the USA subset of Protestants. So let us remove 30% of the 375 million Protestants from the 'creationist' camp, leaving 263 million.

Now, again assuming 100% 'creationist' views although this is hardly likely to be true, we are left with 263 million Protestants, 219 million Orthodox, and 34 million Marginals, total 516 million or no more than 25% of worldwide Christians.

I fully admit that these figures are based upon a number of suppositions, and the level of uncertainty is high. And I recognize that we are glossing over differences between 'young earth', 'old earth', 'theistic', 'naturalistic', and a host of other nuances. However, I believe that sufficient actual data is present to affirm the OP.

(I apologize for the links-- I seem to have lost the ability to insert a word [like linky] instead of a complete URL. Mods are welcome to fix, and anyone can backchannel me to fight my ignorance for inserting future links.)

[scumbat]

Dear CannyDan;
Which biblical story of creation are you refereing to? Genesis 1 or 2?

I first discovered this when I studied Old Testament fir the first time. The homework question was

"Read creations stories in Genesis 1 & 2 and comment on differences"

Next week, I asked the lecturer about the question, asking "shouldn't that be singular?"

"No" she said. "Did you read them?" she asked. Somewhat embarrassed, I had to admit that I didn't. Lesson 1: never assume the Bible says what you think, just because of popular perception.

The story in Genesis 1 dates from about 500 BC. It has the six-day creation story; it is very ordered and neat. In it, God begins with nothing, and the creation culminates in the creation of humans.

The Genesis 2 story (verses 3 onward) dates much earlier. In this story, God creates the man first, the and then creates everything around him, including the woman.

Many fundamentalists have no inkling of these differences, and have a 'porridge mix' concept of the two stories.

As far as stats go, I can't tell.