Son of SDMB Musicals - Chicago

[LurkMeister]

The first movie up for discussion is Chicago. Based on the Broadway musical which is based on a play written by Maurine Dallas Watkins based on her experiences as a Chicago Tribune crime reporter, is a retelling of two real life murder trials in 1924. The play had been made into a movie twice, in 1927 and 1942, the latter starring Ginger Rogers in the title role of Roxie Hart.

Without dwelling further on the history behind the musical, it must be said that the casting of the major roles in this movie was...interesting. Renee Zellweger, Catherine Zeta-Jones, and Richard Gere were not known for their singing or dancing ability prior to this. Queen Latifah was mostly known as a hip-hop singer and, while she had acted in a number of TV shows and movies, had not done any musical theater since high school. Yet Chicago won six Oscars, including Best Picture and Best Supporting Actress (Zeta-Jones) and had seven other nominations, including Best Director (Rob Marshall), Best Actress (Zellweger), Best Supporting Actor (John C Reilly), and Best Supporting Actress (Queen Latifah).

I watched the movie this afternoon, and was amazed at how many things about it I had forgotten. All of the musical numbers were shot as a blend of fantasy and "reality", cutting seamlessly back and forth between the illusion projected by the song and the events of the main story. Just a few examples: "When You're Good to Momma" has Queen Latifah doing a raucus, suggestive burlesque show with lines like "So boost me up my ladder, kid And I'll boost you up yours" while Roxie is being introduced to the realities of prison life. And then there's Billy Flynn as Ringmaster surrounded by acrobats interspersed with the courtroom scenes during "Razzle Dazzle".

And of course, we can't forget the Cell Block Tango, can we, Eleanor of Aquitaine? ;)

I'm sure everybody has their favorite scenes to discuss. And possibly even a few things that you think didn't quite work. So let's hear from you.

BTW, I have the two-disk "Razzle Dazzle" edition of the DVD, and when I get a chance later I'll be checking out some of the extras. If I find anything interesting in them, I'll let you know.

[lissener]

Haven't rescreened yet for this thread--will do so tonight--but wanted to add:

Ginger Rogers's Roxie Hart is a hoot; a very cynical dark comedy that seems decades ahead of its time. It was directed by one of the Hollywood greats, William A Wellman. Wellman also directed such masterpieces as Track of the Cat, The Story of G.I. Joe, The Oxbow Incident, Nothing Sacred, A Star Is Born, Female, Night Nurse, Public Enemy, and Oscar's first Best Picture, Wings. Even outside the context of this thread, I recommend it highly.

It should also be noted that the look and style of the Chicago under discussion is largely a tribute (though uncredited, IIRC) to the greatest Broadway choreographer of the 20th century, Bob Fosse. Fosse co-created, directed, and choreographed the 1975 musical Chicago, upon which the film is based.

[twickster]

ETA: lissener snuck in his post while I was writing mine -- apologies for any redundancies.


Yeah, I was also struck by the casting this time around. I hate hate hate Renee Zellwegger, but thought she was well cast in this -- and though I like Richard Gere and thought he did a pretty good job, I did spend some time thinking about who might have been a better choice. (Jerry Ohrbach had the role in the original B'way production.)

As you say, none of the stars were previously known as song-and-dance types -- and none will be moving forward, I don't think. Musicals for me are all about the dancing, so I was disappointed by the fact that they had choreographed this production to get around the fact that most of their stars couldn't dance, with the notable exception of Catherine Zeta-Jones (though I think both of her cartwheels were dubbed).

The third thing I was thinking about a lot while watching was the amount of distance/irony in the portrayal of the '20s. Visually I think they were pretty well on-target, but unlike some of the movies we'll be watching later on, it was clearly a take on the period that maintained a fair amount of psychic distance from the period. (Unlike, say, "Meet Me in St. Louis," which tried to be faithful to its period, or even "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers," which presented a style of dance that was anachronistic, but that didn't have the same level of .... I'm not sure what to call it. "Irony" isn't quite right.)

And the last thing I was thinking about was, how much was the story as story changed/added to/subtracted from as compared to earlier (non-musical) versions? Does anyone know?

A couple of interesting points from the "getting from B'way to screen" feature on the one-disk DVD I watched:

Bob Fosse, who (as we all know) was the main artistic visionary behind the original show, deliberately structured it as a "musical vaudeville," with different numbers reflecting acts that would have been presented in actual vaudeville -- including a ventriloquist act.

(Fosse also had an obsession with strippers, but we already knew that also.)

After seeing "Strictly Ballroom," they approached Baz Luhrman about making the film -- he'd just signed a three-picture deal with Fox, though, and had to turn them down. One of his three pictures, of course, was Moulin Rouge!, which came out at roughly the same time as Chicago and which played with many of the same themes and anachronisms.

They completly rechoreographed the show for the movie, retaining (IMHO) only an homage to Fosse in the opening number. It was rather odd choreographing it for so many non-dancers, as suggested above, esp. since the original cast had Gwen Verdon and Chita Rivera -- both amazing dancers -- in the two lead roles. I never saw the stage version -- did anyone else?

My favorite number: "Cellblock Tango." I loved the stuff with the red scarves, which I hadn't really noticed as much the other times I've seen this. I loved the cutting back and forth between the solos and the ensemble dancing -- I loved how it had a flavor of Fosse to it (esp. in the dominatrix-lingerie costumes) but had its own vibe as well.

I originally saw this on the big screen, and it, I think, works best on the big screen -- but I enjoyed watching it again.

[anyrose]

I'd never seen any of the movies made prior to the NYC Broadway production, so I've never seen any other telling of the story. And I've never seen the Broadway production, but I did have a passing familiarity with several of the numbers, including a barbershop arrangement of Razzle Dazzle.

At the time the film was released, my chorus was working on a barbershop arrangement of "All That Jazz" and the director recommended we all see the film. As I often do when watching a musical, I watched with an eye for which part would I have played had I stuck with my high school dream of making it as a stage Diva. The answer here? Mama Morton.

I thought it was brilliant casting because the surprise was in how well these Hollywood stars performed as singers and dancers. Richard Gere knocked me out of my seat with "All I Care About is Love" John C Reilly stole the film with "Mr Cellophane"
And did you notice? Just before Roxie meets Mama Morton? The broad next to her on the bench? Chita Rivera.

[LurkMeister]

I've never seen the play or the movie (although I'm going to see if Netflix has Roxie Hart now), but I did see the stage musical when one of the touring companies had been in Chicago about ten years ago. Unfortunately, I'm drawing a complete blank as to who was in the production I saw, but I remember being very impressed by it.

twickster, does your DVD include the one song that they filmed for the movie but reluctantly cut, "Class"? It was a duet for Mama and Velma, sung during the scene when they were listening to the trial on the radio. A very nice song, and well done, but I do agree with the commentary for it (which I also listened to); as it was filmed it breaks up the flow of the story a bit, and unlike most of the other songs does not have Bob Fosse's vaudeville feeling that you referred to in your post.

And I can't believe that I had never noticed the use of the red scarves during "Cell Block Tango" before today's viewing.

And on preview:

anyrose, I loved the way they did "All I Care About is Love" in the movie, too. And I can't believe I missed Chita Rivera - I guess now I have another excuse to watch it again.

[anyrose]

I believe the main reason for cuttng "Class" from the movie was in the lyrics. There is an extremely offensive female epithet in the song.

[Eureka]

I saw Chicago on Broadway eleven and a half years ago, with my parents. We enjoyed it, but I think it was a little more sultry than any of us had expected. Joel Grey played Mr. Cellophane--which reminded my mother in particular of what a good dancer he was in his youth (Cabaret--which I saw sometime after Chicago on Broadway, probably 3-4 years after). If any other roles were played by people of significance, I don't recall.

I remember being a little confused by the musical, and the movie made more sense to me, but that's because of my greater familiarity with the material and not a better structured performance.

The biggest thing I recall about what I saw on Broadway was that the costume designer's theme was "How many different ways can I dress people in see-through black fabric?" In that respect, I felt the costuming for the movie was more believable/more representative of the time period. (Although not neccessarily less revealing).

I was a little dissappointed in both Chicago and Smokey Joe's Cafe (the other musical we saw that week) because neither struck me as being Big Broadway Spectacle, the way "real musicals" are. Some of it was the music, a lot was the staging and the general absense of a big dancing chorusline.

Uncharacteristically, I saw Chicago the movie in the movie theater at the time of its release. I enjoyed it, mostly, although the need to frame all the musical numbers as fantasy irritated me--not least because it made it harder to tell what was going on. I have not re-viewed it lately, and probably won't, but that's due to life issues, not due to hatred of the movie.

[Barrett Bonden]

I enjoyed the movie a lot, especially Catherine Zeta Jones and John C. Reilly. The opening scene, with CZJs shoes hurrying into the theater and then beckoning the spotlight to focus on her were pure magic. I also had a few complaints, mostly about the direction.

As twickster mentioned, a lot of the joy of musicals is in the dance. Zellwegger was so bad at moving it was painful for me to watch. She couldn't even keep time. Her singing was nothing to write home about, but Kander and Ebb scripted Roxie to be a second-rate performer (like Sally Bowles) so that didn't bother me as much.

"When You're Good to Mama," is chock full of gleeful girl-on-girl inuendo, which was thoroughly stomped out of the movie scene.

"Cell Block Tango" was milked so hard for sexy and dangerous, that they completely missed how damn funny the number is. "And then he ran into my knife! He ran into my knife TEN TIMES!"

The thing that people love and hate about K&E shows is that K&E totally didn't buy into the premise of musicals. They knew that audiences loved song, dance, and scantily clad women, but also knew that in real life those were hard to come by. So they carefully constructed their premises to make the song, dance, and skimpy clothing plausible. The "reveal" in Chicago is that we, the audience, are watching a revue version of the story staged by the protagonists. The revue setting excuses the unrealism AND makes us, the audience, uncomfortably complicit in the action.

This was totally tossed out of the movie. Instead, the excuse for the huge production numbers was that Roxie had an overactive imagination. Why not use the new medium and make it a movie retelling, a la Hamlet? I thought that was kind of lame. YMMV.

[twickster]

twickster, does your DVD include the one song that they filmed for the movie but reluctantly cut, "Class"?
Yes. I was pretty "meh" about it, and agreed with the decision to cut it.

[LurkMeister]

I believe the main reason for cuttng "Class" from the movie was in the lyrics. There is an extremely offensive female epithet in the song.

After reading this I pulled out the DVD and listened again to the deleted scene with and without the commentary by Rob Marshall and Bill Condon (who wrote the screenplay) and they said that the only reason the scene was cut was because it was the only song that didn't have the vaudeville feel of the rest of the songs. The only mention in their commentary to the offensive female epithet (which was in the song as filmed) was to say that in the original 1975 show the line was changed because it was deemed too offensive (according to the Wikipedia article it was Fosse that made the change).

[Eleanor of Aquitaine]

And I can't believe that I had never noticed the use of the red scarves during "Cell Block Tango" before today's viewing.I hadn't noticed before that Hunyak (the "Uh-uh" woman) pulled a white scarf, because she was the only one who was innocent.

According to IMDB trivia, here's what she's saying, in Hungarian, during her dance number: "What am I doing here? They say my famous tenant held down my husband and I chopped his head off. But it's not true. I am innocent. I don't know why Uncle Sam says I did it. I tried to explain at the police station but they didn't understand."

I didn't realize that the show was based on real murder trials - I wonder if her case is real, too? The applause at the end of her hanging/disappearing act was disturbing. I guess that's the point of the movie, that innocent but boring people like Amos and Hunyak are disregarded while guilty but flashy people get all of the attention. Hunyak only became worthy of attention, briefly, when they hung her.

When he was singing "All I Care About is Love", I thought Richard Gere sounded kind of like Jeremy Northam singing in Gosford Park. The DVD extras had a clip of Jerry Orbach singing it, which was fun because I've never seen him in anything except Law & Order.

[twickster]

I hadn't noticed before that Hunyak (the "Uh-uh" woman) pulled a white scarf, because she was the only one who was innocent.
Totally missed that -- cool.

And missed the Chita Rivera cameo also. :smack:

Unfortunately, I've returned the disk to Netflix already, so I can't rerun it to check these two points ...

[Eonwe]

Bob Fosse, who (as we all know) was the main artistic visionary behind the original show, deliberately structured it as a "musical vaudeville," with different numbers reflecting acts that would have been presented in actual vaudeville -- including a ventriloquist act.


I can check it when I get home, but the title of the show has a sub-title on the script along the lines of "Chicago: A Broadway Vaudeville."

[twickster]

I can check it when I get home, but the title of the show has a sub-title on the script along the lines of "Chicago: A Broadway Vaudeville."

Oops. You're right, I'm wrong. Sorry.

[Eonwe]

Oops. You're right, I'm wrong. Sorry.

You were wrong about . . . what? :) I was agreeing, and pointing out that the script to the stage show even states it explicitly (though from an audience perspective you don't ever see that subtitle).

[twickster]

I quoted it as "musical vaudeville" instead of "B'way vaudeville."

What, you weren't trying to split hairs with me? Oh, right, we're not in GD.

Never mind.

[Eureka]

I can check it when I get home, but the title of the show has a sub-title on the script along the lines of "Chicago: A Broadway Vaudeville."

Hmm, I wonder if I would have appreciated it more if I'd known that at the time I saw it . . .

Actually, I suspect the answer is no, but I would appreciate the musical more if I saw it now because I've got a lot more knowledge of and appreciation for stuff like vaudeville than I did a decade a go.

And it's not that I didn't enjoy it, it's just there's a part of me which will always be sad I didn't argue harder for going to see Les Mis, even if I had seen it on Broadway before.

[anyrose]

Kander and Ebb's (mild?) disdain of the traditional musical is very apparent in the score of Curtains.

Eureka - I enjoy non traditional formats as much as the big budget Bernstein or Rodgers/Hart, Rodgers/Hammerstein ones, maybe more.

Eleanor of Aquitaine - I have the original Off Broadway cast recording of The Fantastiks from the early 60s in which Orbach played El Gallo (The Cat) a combination narrator/villian. He also starred in Promises, Promises (based on the Lemmon/Maclaine movie The Apartment) in 1966. He was a song and dance man for many years before Angela Lansbury gave him a recurring role in Murder She Wrote.

[araminty]

Eleanor of Aquitaine - I have the original Off Broadway cast recording of The Fantastiks from the early 60s in which Orbach played El Gallo (The Cat) a combination narrator/villian.

Nitpick: Gallo = rooster. Gato = cat.

We just saw The Fantasticks last weekend, I thoroughly enjoyed it :)

Oh, and my Chicago input - my sister and I went to see it once in London, mostly to see what Van Outen (Van Outen, Van Outen! She's a Nether-regioner! Sorry, channeling my inner Dawn French...) could do with the role - she was only known as a newsreader at the time. We got the understudy! Boo! Fun show, though, and a good production. Enjoyed the movie too.

[anyrose]

Nitpick: Gallo = rooster. Gato = cat.
Thank you for the correction. I actually knew what the Spanish word for cat is, but when Dad told me (when I was 6) that El Gallo was The Cat, I believed him. He was right about so many other things after all... :rolleyes: :D

[lawoot]

The thing that sticks out for me from the only stage production I've seen was that the part of Mary Sunshine (the gossip reporter played by Christine Baranski in the movie) was cast as a man, who was revealed to be a man in one of the songs that Billy Flynn sings - so was this part of the original show, or something unique to the one I saw?

[LurkMeister]

Yes, in the original production of Chicago, and traditionally in all stage productions of it, the part of Mary Sunshine is played by a man in drag. Usually in the cast listing only the first initial of the person playing the part is shown, to keep from giving away the "secret" until it is revealed during the performance. I believe there's another play that does the same thing, but I can't remember it at the moment.

anyrose, I think I have a CD of The Fantasticks with Jerry Orbach, too. That was one of my wife's favorite shows; I also have a DVD of the movie that was made of it, with Joel Grey, Barnard Hughes, and Teller (playing Mortimer).

[Lamia]

I wasn't able to re-watch Chicago this time around and don't at the moment have a whole lot to add to the analysis, but I did want to point out that this was the first musical to win the Academy Award for Best Picture since Oliver! in 1968, and only the third musical to even be nominated for Best Picture since All That Jazz in 1979. (The other two were Disney's Beauty and the Beast and Moulin Rouge!.)

I don't have a cite for this, but I remember reading that there were plans for a film version of Chicago in the 1990s but it was abandoned because the studio didn't think there was a market for musicals.

I'll introduce a little film class jargon here that might be useful in future discussions. There are two basic types of musicals or musical numbers, "integrated"/"straight" (characters suddenly start singing and dancing on the street or wherever they are) and "unintegrated"/"staged" (characters only sing and dance if they're performers within the context of the story).

Chicago opens with a staged number, where Velma Kelly is singing and dancing because she's a professional singer and dancer who is onstage at a nightclub. The other musical numbers in the movie are presented in the style of staged numbers (see "When You're Good to Mama (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikz9fLl1BYQ)", where Queen Latifah is shown onstage, interacting with an audience, and sneaking behind the scenes for a smoke) but are not actually supposed to be "real" performances within the world of the story. I consider these numbers to be examples of a third style of musical number, the fantasy or dream number, but I can see how they'd arguably be straight numbers instead.

I differ from most critics and I believe even the filmmakers in that I don't think that all of the fantasy numbers in Chicago represent Roxie's fantasies. I think several work better if they're the fantasies of other characters, such as Amos with "Mr. Cellophane", Velma with "I Can't Do It Alone", and Mama with "When You're Good to Mama".

As you can see in the YouTube clip, immediately after a musical number in which Mama makes it very clear that she believes in "the system called reciprocity", Roxie attempts to get Mama to do a favor for her for nothing. Did Roxie imagine a number that explained something she didn't yet understand herself? Maybe the fantasy numbers are supposed to be something Roxie imagined after the fact, but my interpretation of Chicago is that not just Roxie but almost everyone likes to sometimes imagine being a star and expressing themselves on stage. It's not Roxie but Mama herself who fantasizes about Mama being a glamorous, sexy cabaret performer who's applauded for explaining her "one hand washes the other" philosophy in song.

[Homebrew]

Yeah, I was also struck by the casting this time around. I hate hate hate Renee Zellwegger, but thought she was well cast in this -- and though I like Richard Gere
I also dislike Zellweger; but she was good for this role. Roxie had limited talent and was over her head. Zellweger portrayed that well (all she had to do was act naturally).

Musicals for me are all about the dancing, so I was disappointed by the fact that they had choreographed this production to get around the fact that most of their stars couldn't dance, with the notable exception of Catherine Zeta-Jones (though I think both of her cartwheels were dubbed). She was preggers during production, so that may have limited her abilities.

[twickster]

She was preggers during production, so that may have limited her abilities.
Okay, she's off the hook for the cartwheels, then. Overall, though, I was impressed at her dance skills -- I thought she was clearly the best of the four main stars.

[anyrose]

Yes, in the original production of Chicago, and traditionally in all stage productions of it, the part of Mary Sunshine is played by a man in drag. Usually in the cast listing only the first initial of the person playing the part is shown, to keep from giving away the "secret" until it is revealed during the performance. I believe there's another play that does the same thing, but I can't remember it at the moment.
Might you be thinking of M.Butterfly?
anyrose, I think I have a CD of The Fantasticks with Jerry Orbach, too. That was one of my wife's favorite shows; I also have a DVD of the movie that was made of it, with Joel Grey, Barnard Hughes, and Teller (playing Mortimer).The movie was horrid.

[LurkMeister]

Yes, in the original production of Chicago, and traditionally in all stage productions of it, the part of Mary Sunshine is played by a man in drag. Usually in the cast listing only the first initial of the person playing the part is shown, to keep from giving away the "secret" until it is revealed during the performance. I believe there's another play that does the same thing, but I can't remember it at the moment.Might you be thinking of M.Butterfly?

Yes, I think that's the one.
anyrose, I think I have a CD of The Fantasticks with Jerry Orbach, too. That was one of my wife's favorite shows; I also have a DVD of the movie that was made of it, with Joel Grey, Barnard Hughes, and Teller (playing Mortimer).
The movie was horrid.

Oh, I agree. Even my wife said so. I think we only watched it once. She was particularly annoyed that they had dropped one of her her favorite songs, "It Depends on What You Pay" and replaced it with something called "The Abduction".

We managed to see a live production of it shortly before she died, which wiped the taste of the movie from our minds.

[twickster]

Anyway, back to Chicago -- our current theme is "period and nostalgia" -- what did you think of it as an evocation of the 1920s? Did it seem like an actual portrayal of the period to you, or more of commentary that didn't particularly care about being accurate?

Plus -- how would the movie have been different if Mary Sunshine had been played in drag? Would it have been better? worse?

Hate to post questions and run, but I've got an appt. -- will be back later with my thoughts on this --

[Sigmagirl]

Re period: I noticed that when Roxie was being booked, she was measured according to the Bertillon scale: There's a very short glimpse of Zellweger topless, back to the camera, with her arms spread against a measuring device. Nice touch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_Bertillon

It seems period that Taye Diggs would have played the piano player in the club where Roxie goes for her audition, but I find it highly unlikely that Mama Morton would have been a black woman in the 1920s. Prison matrons were civil servants; would a black woman have gotten the job?

I loved the casting except for Richard Gere, which I am lukewarm about. My husband thought John C. Reilly has too much presence, but was unable to come up with an alternative.

[Skammer]

I hadn't been exposed to Chicago before the movie came out, although I was familiar with some of Fosse's other stuff. I loved the movie, since it couldn't suffer in comparison to the stage show for me.

I was pleasantly surprised with Gere's singing, and tap-dancing. Ditto for Reilly.

I think my favorite numbers are "All that Jazz" and "Cell Block Tango." I like the ventriloquist scene too... actually it's hard to pick a favorite.

About a year and a half ago I was visiting NYC and decided to see a Broadway show. I wanted to do Wicked, which I had just read, or Spamalot. Chicago was playing, but I wasn't planning on seeing it since the movie was so fresh in my mind.

Until I saw the cast. Starring as Billy Flynn... Joey Lawrence! How could I not see that?

He wasn't bad, but I probably should have held out for Wicked tickets.

[LurkMeister]

Re period: I noticed that when Roxie was being booked, she was measured according to the Bertillon scale: There's a very short glimpse of Zellweger topless, back to the camera, with her arms spread against a measuring device. Nice touch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_Bertillon

It seems period that Taye Diggs would have played the piano player in the club where Roxie goes for her audition, but I find it highly unlikely that Mama Morton would have been a black woman in the 1920s. Prison matrons were civil servants; would a black woman have gotten the job?

I loved the casting except for Richard Gere, which I am lukewarm about. My husband thought John C. Reilly has too much presence, but was unable to come up with an alternative.

IIRC, in the original stage musical the Taye Diggs character served as a sort of narrator (rather like the emcee in Cabaret or, more closely, Everyman in A Man for All Seasons), so you saw a bit more of him than you did in the movie. Also. Mama Morton was also played by a black actress in the original stage musical, but I can't say how period that would have been.

I wish I could remember who I had seen play the leads in the touring company I saw in the 90s. I know Joel Grey had played Amos in the 1996 Broadway revival, and I have the CD of that show and he really nailed the part.

I'm not sure how well having Mary Sunshine in drag would have worked in the movie. Trying to cast any "name" actor for the part would have been difficult without giving away the secret. In the revival the part was played by D(avid) Sabella, Ernie Sabella's brother, in what I believe was his only Broadway appearance.

[Lamia]

I've seen on here before people questioning the plausibility of a black prison matron in 1920s Chicago, but given what we know of Mama's character I didn't find it hard to believe. The film doesn't require the audience to think that it would be common for a black woman to have a cushy civil servant job, only that a particularly shrewd black woman managed to get herself in the position of being owed favors by the right people. And Queen Latifah was great in the role, reason enough to suspend a little disbelief.

I'm not sure how well having Mary Sunshine in drag would have worked in the movie. Trying to cast any "name" actor for the part would have been difficult without giving away the secret. In the revival the part was played by D(avid) Sabella, Ernie Sabella's brother, in what I believe was his only Broadway appearance.I've never seen Chicago onstage, but I take it that it's supposed to be a surprise that Mary Sunshine is played by a man? Even if a relatively unknown actor had been cast in the part, I'd think it would be a lot more difficult to find an actor who could "pass" in close-up on the big screen. If the audience is thinking "Mary Sunshine looks like a drag queen" or "Mary Sunshine sure has a mannish face" then it wouldn't be all that surprising when she's revealed to be a man.

Even if it's not supposed to be a big shock to the audience, I think that's the sort of thing that works well onstage but is difficult to pull off in a movie. A theater-going audience is going to accept that some of the performers may not be the same age, race, or sex as their characters, but this isn't how casting is usually handled in movies.

[anyrose]

Also, Mama Morton was also played by a black actress in the original stage musical, but I can't say how period that would have been. No, the original Mama Morton was Mary McCarty (http://www.ibdb.com/person.php?id=52125). However, at one point in 2001, during the revival, Mama Morton was played by Jennifer Holiday (of Dreamgirls fame)


eta -
re the period of the piece - I cannot say much for the historucal accuracies, but the costumes and sets were certainly authentic. Well, except for the fantasy costumes in Cell Blck Tango, of course. I especially loved Mama's dress in When You're Good to Mama and Roxie's dress in Roxie.

[twickster]

Ooh, my first "multi-quote" post -- neato!

Lamia -- I missed your post #23 when you first made it -- I'm gonna blame the malfunctioning "view first unread" settings -- I go to the end and scroll up when I can't do "first unread."

Anyway -- helpful post, thanks. I specifically wanted to respond to the following:
...I differ from most critics and I believe even the filmmakers in that I don't think that all of the fantasy numbers in Chicago represent Roxie's fantasies. I think several work better if they're the fantasies of other characters, such as Amos with "Mr. Cellophane", Velma with "I Can't Do It Alone", and Mama with "When You're Good to Mama".

...my interpretation of Chicago is that not just Roxie but almost everyone likes to sometimes imagine being a star and expressing themselves on stage. It's not Roxie but Mama herself who fantasizes about Mama being a glamorous, sexy cabaret performer who's applauded for explaining her "one hand washes the other" philosophy in song.

That makes a lot of sense, and I agree with you. The "it's all about Roxie's fantasy life" explanation doesn't entirely make sense when you apply it to just about any number that she's not in. "Mr. Cellophane," could only be her fantasy if she were capable of a great deal of empathy, whereas she obviously had no empathy at all.

Re period: I noticed that when Roxie was being booked, she was measured according to the Bertillon scale: There's a very short glimpse of Zellweger topless, back to the camera, with her arms spread against a measuring device. Nice touch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_Bertillon


Very cool -- I remember that shot but didn't really think about the significance of that. Thanks for the info.

I've never seen Chicago onstage, but I take it that it's supposed to be a surprise that Mary Sunshine is played by a man? ... Even if it's not supposed to be a big shock to the audience, I think that's the sort of thing that works well onstage but is difficult to pull off in a movie. A theater-going audience is going to accept that some of the performers may not be the same age, race, or sex as their characters, but this isn't how casting is usually handled in movies.

Agree -- I thought about this between posting the question and getting back to the thread. It's possible to "pass" onstage in a way you just can't onscreen -- there's both a literal and figurative distance between the actor and the audience in live theater that makes such a masquerade possible.

re the period of the piece - I cannot say much for the historucal accuracies, but the costumes and sets were certainly authentic. Well, except for the fantasy costumes in Cell Blck Tango, of course. I especially loved Mama's dress in When You're Good to Mama and Roxie's dress in Roxie.
Agree -- gorgeous costumes, slinky and sexy and (as far as I can tell) authentic. Very glamorous.

[Eleanor of Aquitaine]

Anyway, back to Chicago -- our current theme is "period and nostalgia" -- what did you think of it as an evocation of the 1920s? Did it seem like an actual portrayal of the period to you, or more of commentary that didn't particularly care about being accurate?I liked the admonition to "stay away from jazz and liquor".

[Sampiro]

I hadn't noticed before that Hunyak (the "Uh-uh" woman) pulled a white scarf, because she was the only one who was innocent.

I didn't catch that either when I first saw it. I think a lot has to do with the white scarf reflecting some of the red lights around it.

Favorite part of that song: "he ran into my knife... he ran into my knife ten times!" followed by the really long red scarf pull. I also loved way "Pop" (the one who fired two warning shots into her husband's head)- the way she's always striking matches- just a nice little "pscyho!" touch.

Latifah's "Just a touch of lesbian" was great also ("ain't you the pretty one?" and then the man's tux at the end). When You're Good to Mama is my favorite number by far. She said in an interview at the time she based it on a Bessie Smith song. Particularly love the green scarf she pulls from her cleavage after stuffing in a dollar. (That's not a cigarette her character's smoking backstage, incidentally.)

Does anyone know in which scenes Catherine Zeta Jones was pregnant? One of my favorites of her moments is the casual "on me" signal to her sister's spotlight in "All that Jazz". And why is it that she's a thoroughly selfish double murderer but you still feel sorry for her when you see her 'holey' stocking at the end?

Christine Baranski made an interesting comment (and incidentally I totally agree the Mary Sunshine would not have worked on screen): she said that she had trouble getting into character until it dawned on her that in spite of the name her character's a total cynic who knows damned good and well both girls are guilty and is writing them as victims (well, Roxy anyway) to get readership. Loved her floating dance with Richard Gere in the press conference/ventriloquist number.

Another favorite moment is during the Razzle Dazzle number: "I OBJECT!" "Sustained!" "I hadn't asked a question..."

[twickster]

I'm still brooding about Richard Gere. I've got two problems with him as Billy Flynn:

First, he's too good-looking. [Full disclosure -- though I thought Gere was too much a pretty-boy to be sexy as a young man, once his hair went gray -- mwrrr!] I think it would be more effective if Billy Flynn were a little scruffier, more obviously a hustler. Jerry Orbach was about right -- he's not attracting all these female clients because he's a studmuffin, but because he's really good at what he does.

Second, he's not much of a dancer. God bless him for learning a few steps and doing them well, but you can only master so much in your first year of tap. Real speed only starts to come after about a year, and the fancy stuff takes longer than that. Wouldn't it have been cool if the "Razzle Dazzle" number had involved some seriously flashy tap-dancing?

That said, I'm not sure who I'd put up for the role instead. The combination of dancing with also some singing and acting ... and white (looks longingly at Savion Glover) .... hmmm.

[choie]

I love Chicago despite really really disliking the stage musical. It's a rareity that finds me preferring a filmed version to the original.

Catherine Zeta Jones cemented my girlcrush with this role. Yowsa! And I'm not usually a big fan of Renee Zelwegger, but I think she acquitted herself (ha! pun not intended) admirably. Her voice was a little shaky, but hey, so was Gwen Verdon's. Of course, Verdon could dance rings around Zelwegger, but Zelwegger's the stronger actress, and in general I thought her performance won me over. Same for Richard Gere, whom normally I'm not gaga over, but he surprised me. If all my girlcrush points hadn't been taken by La Catherine, Queen Latifah would've gotten those left over. She's luscious, in looks and vocals. And of course, John C. Reilly was heartbreaking playing the only sympathetic character in the bunch.

The one downside was, as others have said, the quick cuts that took focus away from the dancers. The only people who may have needed this sort of 'cheat' were Zelwegger and Gere, but Zelwegger didn't really benefit from it (her "Roxie" number was one of the few that didn't cut all over the place) and Gere, according to the director's commentary, didn't require it. The style seems to have been counter-intuitive, resulting in people assuming the performers weren't doing their own dancing. Indeed, the director seemed kinda surprised that audiences had this reaction; his seemingly not realizing how his own style would affect the audience is a bit depressing. This is why it's a shame that there are so few directors left who know how to shoot choreography anymore.

I'm just relieved Baz Luhrmann didn't get his manic, sugar-high hands on this, as I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to stomach his cartoony style and my appreciation for this musical would've remained stillborn.

That said, I'm not sure who I'd put up for the role instead. The combination of dancing with also some singing and acting ... and white (looks longingly at Savion Glover) .... hmmm.

IMO Kevin Spacey was born for this role. He sings beautifully, has the perfect 'charming carny/huckster' persona, and I'm pretty sure I've seen him tapdance.

[twickster]

IMO Kevin Spacey was born for this role. He sings beautifully, has the perfect 'charming carny/huckster' persona, and I'm pretty sure I've seen him tapdance.

Yeah, he'd be good -- and your suggestion reminds me: Christopher Walken is actually a pretty good dancer, as we'll see in December when we get to Pennies from Heaven. He'd be good too.

[Sampiro]

Travolta was supposedly the first choice for Billy Flynn, but obligations and salary demands led to Gere.

[Zebra]

I remember a big deal when the film was being made that one of the Weinsteins wanted to get Britney Spears a part, so she could sing an original song on the end credits for a potential Oscar.


The only role I could see Ms. Spears for is one of the two women that Go To Hell Kitty guns down.

[twickster]

Travolta was supposedly the first choice for Billy Flynn, but obligations and salary demands led to Gere.

Ugh. Between those two, Gere was the better choice.

[choie]

Ugh. Between those two, Gere was the better choice.

For realsies. Ugh is right.

I don't know why Spacey wasn't considered; 2003 would've been a good time for him to get back in the spotlight, too. Maybe he was too busy with the Old Vic. Then again, if Travolta and Gere were the top choices, they seem to have been going for hunky types.

[Velma]

I own this movie and it is probably my favorite musical-made-movie. (Hence my name here...:) ) I already lean towards this style musical though, as I am not a fan of Webber type musicals. I will usually choose a play over a musical anyway, but there are a few I really love, like Chicago.

I appreciated how carefully this musical was made into a movie, and that the theatrical touches were kept, like the staging, (and details like the scarves mentioned previously by others) I really enjoyed. I thought it was visually very well done, and costuming was great.

John C Reilly - I ADORE him in this movie. Mr. Cellophane is my favorite number, his characterization is perfect. The way he shuffles and ducks his head. Hard to believe now as he is known more for his more full-on comedy in popular movies with Will Ferrell. He has much stage experience though, IIRC. and that comes through.

Also, I believe Catherine Zeta-Jones has quite a bit of stage musical experience, and helped teach Renee in the ways of singing and dancing for this movie. She is obviously the stronger performer of the two, but as she is supposed to be the experienced one, it works.

I liked Richard Gere but I could definitely see Spacey in this role.

[Sampiro]

So do you think the final number (Velma and Roxie at the Chicago Theater) is fantasy or real?

[ivylass]

My daughter and I love this movie...every so often, we'll do the opening lines to Cellblock Tango "Pop Six Squish Uh-Uh Cicero Lipshitz!" with one of us doing one of the words with the other doing the next word, alternating.

I did read somewhere that Britney Spears was considered for the role that Lucy Liu played, of the pineapply heiress who shot her husband and his two lovers. I wonder how her case turned out?

I thought this movie flowed very well, especially when Roxie fires Billy, then gets a wake-up call when the Hunyak hangs, and rehires him.

I didn't get right away that Roxie wasn't pregnant, I thought she had a miscarriage. Then someone pointed out she performed a sexual favor to the doctor, who was then told by Billy to zip up his pants. :smack:

Sampiro, I think the final number is real. The movie is about scoundrels who get away with murder, so I think it's real.

[Lamia]

So do you think the final number (Velma and Roxie at the Chicago Theater) is fantasy or real?I think it's a fantasy, albeit one that might come true later on. I take it as Roxie and Velma imagining what a hit their show is going to be.

A big part of why I feel this way is the way that other characters (Flynn and Mama, IIRC) are shown in the audience applauding. Sure, these people might have come to the real show, but it seemed like a typical "Everyone we know will be there to see how great we are!" fantasy.

[Eureka]

I've never seen Chicago onstage, but I take it that it's supposed to be a surprise that Mary Sunshine is played by a man? Even if a relatively unknown actor had been cast in the part, I'd think it would be a lot more difficult to find an actor who could "pass" in close-up on the big screen. If the audience is thinking "Mary Sunshine looks like a drag queen" or "Mary Sunshine sure has a mannish face" then it wouldn't be all that surprising when she's revealed to be a man.

Even if it's not supposed to be a big shock to the audience, I think that's the sort of thing that works well onstage but is difficult to pull off in a movie. A theater-going audience is going to accept that some of the performers may not be the same age, race, or sex as their characters, but this isn't how casting is usually handled in movies.
Yes--I recall noticing that Mary Sunshine was played by D. Sabella (I recall the initial D. , and am assuming that the person who provided the name is accurate). I don't recall why I was looking for the person who played Mary Sunshine, maybe I was just reading everything in the program during intermission.

At any rate, looking at the picture or reading the bio, I suspected that D. was male--which didn't compute because Mary Sunshine was female. Heavyset, not particularly feminine, but a woman none-the-less.

And then there was the scene where Mr. Lawyer rips off the wig, and the shirt, and exposes a very male looking undershirt, and it becomes clear that Mary Sunshine was a man in disguise. Lightbulb moment about the oddities in the program, for me at any rate.

I think the big thing which makes this work onstage is just the scale. Admittedly, I didn't have a front row seat--more likely a first row of the whatchamacallit (not balcony, exactly), but the people were small and far away and lit mostly by spots.

In movies, it is normal to see people in close-up, which requires a lot more subtlety than the stage does.

I'm not sure that Mary Sunshine couldn't have been a man, but it's harder to pull off well.

(note: I got interrupted before the last two-three paragraphs, I may have lost my train of thought.)

[anyrose]

IMO Kevin Spacey was born for this role. He sings beautifully, has the perfect 'charming carny/huckster' persona, and I'm pretty sure I've seen him tapdance.Yeah, he'd be good -- and your suggestion reminds me: Christopher Walken is actually a pretty good dancer, as we'll see in December when we get to Pennies from Heaven. He'd be good too.Travolta was supposedly the first choice for Billy Flynn, but obligations and salary demands led to Gere.Can Spacey sing? I've never heard him. Walken can dance well, but his singing voice leaves much to be desired. Travolta would have been interesting in the part, certainly he has the feet and voice for the role, but I'm not sure he's the right type - like Gere, he lacks the "scruffy" quality.
The only viable alternative would have been to take "unknowns" from Broadway and have them reprise their roles.

eta - by the way - before hitting Hollywood in the early 70s, Gere had a lot of stage musical experience - so he was, at one point, able to dance quite well.

[twickster]

Can Spacey sing? I've never heard him.

Yes, and quite well, actually -- he did his own singing when he played Bobby Darrin in Beyond the Sea.

[choie]

Wow, to be honest, Sampiro, I never even thought about whether that "Nowadays" finale was real -- I took it as a given that Roxie and Velma were really on stage. Fits the theme for them to not just get away with murder (literally), but to become the toast of Chicago. But it's a very interesting question, and I can now see it working either way. Still, the arc works best if it's not a fantasy; this way, Roxie has successfully crawled her way to the top and partnered with the woman she so admired right at the beginning.

Can Spacey sing? I've never heard him.

That's All (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9P8pnVyIOs) (from his Beyond the Sea Bobby Darrin biopic); very Billy Flynn-esque, even with the showgirls yet!

That Old Black Magic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUHhe8D-YA8) (he undersings a bit here -- his style is very casual -- but he sells it at the end)

[Clothahump]

Zellweger's scene in that silver outfit was incredibly erotic, and quite possibly the best scene in the whole show.

[anyrose]

Yes, and quite well, actually -- he did his own singing when he played Bobby Darrin in Beyond the Sea.

That's All (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9P8pnVyIOs) (from his Beyond the Sea Bobby Darrin biopic); very Billy Flynn-esque, even with the showgirls yet!

That Old Black Magic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUHhe8D-YA8) (he undersings a bit here -- his style is very casual -- but he sells it at the end)
Thank you both. I'd always thought he just lip sync'ed to Darrin's original vocals.

[Velma]

I think the final Velma/Roxie song is purposefully done so as to be ambiguous, and a good case could be made either way. I like to take it as their real act, because it sums up the glorification and exploitation of crime/ruthlessness in Chicago during that time. They are celebrated because of their crimes, as they dance along the stage with prop machine guns.

[Eureka]

I think the big thing which makes this work onstage is just the scale. Admittedly, I didn't have a front row seat--more likely a first row of the whatchamacallit (not balcony, exactly), but the people were small and far away and lit mostly by spots.


whatchamacallit=mezzanine, I remembered as soon as I walked away from my computer, but didn't have a chance to type it until now.

[DesertDog]

DesertRoomie was working at the local movie house when this came out. They had a pretty generous refund policy; someone could go to the box office with no more than an "I'm not liking it" and get a pass for another movie (short of the credits rolling, of course).

Chicago by far had the most walkouts, generally about twenty minutes into the film. We were thinking it was Cell Block Tango that did it. Might have been Annie ("One of those Mormons, you know.") was the final straw.

[twickster]

So do you think the final number (Velma and Roxie at the Chicago Theater) is fantasy or real?

I think it's a fantasy, albeit one that might come true later on. I take it as Roxie and Velma imagining what a hit their show is going to be.

A big part of why I feel this way is the way that other characters (Flynn and Mama, IIRC) are shown in the audience applauding. Sure, these people might have come to the real show, but it seemed like a typical "Everyone we know will be there to see how great we are!" fantasy.


The "people in the audience" element reminded me of the end of Fosse's All That Jazz -- another film that mixed fantasy and reality. I assume Marshall did that as a deliberate homage.

Of course, Joe Gideon ended up flatlining at the end of that number, so I'm not sure how far the comparison works.

[DesertDog]

The "people in the audience" element reminded me of the end of Fosse's All That Jazz -- another film that mixed fantasy and reality. I assume Marshall did that as a deliberate homage.

Of course, Joe Gideon ended up flatlining at the end of that number, so I'm not sure how far the comparison works.Hmmm. How about the people in the audience reflected in a distorted mirror at the very end of Cabaret? We may be onto something. No flatline for the MC, though. He just whisked through the curtain.

[Sigmagirl]

Speaking of the MC, was being the Master of Ceremonies at a posh club the piano player's fantasy? Everything else was somebody else's fantasy, and his real gig was in a two-bit dive.

[DesertDog]

Speaking of the MC, was being the Master of Ceremonies at a posh club the piano player's fantasy? Everything else was somebody else's fantasy, and his real gig was in a two-bit dive.I wondered about that, too. Maybe at the auditioning club he was moonlighting -- um, daylighting.

[Sampiro]

Speaking of the MC, was being the Master of Ceremonies at a posh club the piano player's fantasy? Everything else was somebody else's fantasy, and his real gig was in a two-bit dive.

Have you seen the revamped Cabaret? The ending is a bit more disturbing.

Each time the MC comes out he's wearing a long leather jacket that he takes off at some point to reveal another outfit, whether the "naughty lederhosen" of the opening number or the nothing/mooning/swastika booty at the end of the first act or the underwear of Two Ladies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ivx6tNHfW4&feature=related). At the end of the show the stage goes "white" (theater jargon meaning all the sets recede and it's just basically a blank stage) and he's wearing a concentration camp uniform with a yellow star and pink triangle
Makes it kind of hard to leave humming "Wilkommen". But I managed.;)

The sexual orientation/nationality progression of Cabaret is interesting.

The novella Goodbye to Berlin: autobiographical story based on the experiences of Christopher Isherwood, a gay English writer (he'd had had experiences with women but counted himself gay) who lived in Berlin and was friends withwith an English lounge singer fictionalized as Sally Bowles. (I can't remember the real woman's name, but she received some notoriety from the book and its projects; she did not die in a concentration camp as is sometimes reported but returned to England, married, and settled down.) It was not a sexual relationship and the pregnancy she aborted was not by Isherwood's character.

I've never seen I Am a Camera, the play/movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048188/) based on the book from which Cabaret was adapted, so I'm not sure what nationalities they used or if they delved into orientation.

When Cabaret premiered on Broadway it featured Cliff (Bert Convy), an American writer in Berlin, involved with an English Sally Bowles (Jill Haworth). Cliff was hetero. Joel Grey played the MC and won a Tony.

In the film adaptation, which is basically a hybrid of the original source and the play, Cliff (Michael York) is a bisexual English writer living with Sally (Liza Minnelli), who is American. Joel Grey played the MC and won an Oscar.

In the 1980s revival Cliff's American and Sally's English again, but the story is basically the same as the original: they're straight. Joel Grey played the MC- rave reviews, won nothing (though Werner Klemperer received a nomination for the role of Schulz, the Jewish fruit seller in love with Fraulein Schneider).

In the revival, Cliff is American and Sally's English, but Cliff's now gay (or bisexual). Alan Cumming is a completely different from Joel Grey MC and wins the Tony. (There's been talk of a movie on and off; it'd be interesting to see if Cumming would reprise and win an Oscar.) Also the nightclub changes: Joel Grey's MC would be the toast of Berlin, while this one is set in the dingy transvestite dives of Isherwood's experience.

Perhaps in the next incarnation Cliff and Sally will both be English and Cliff will be gay. Not that it doesn't work the other ways.

Cool clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AxTKiVEadg) of both Cumming and Grey singing Wilkommen.

[anyrose]

Speaking of the MC, was being the Master of Ceremonies at a posh club the piano player's fantasy? Everything else was somebody else's fantasy, and his real gig was in a two-bit dive.
His character introduced every one of the fantasy numbers - maybe he was a figment of Roxie's imagination?

[DesertDog]

His character introduced every one of the fantasy numbers - maybe he was a figment of Roxie's imagination?But he was definitely playing piano the night Velma was arrested, and that was all real, save for the snippet of Roxie belting out "All That Jazz!" just before Casely taps her on the shoulder and they leave. The introductions, yeah, those were Roxie's fervid imagination

Speaking of which, when I was running that number to make sure, something dawned on me I hadn't noticed before. Velma sings All That Jazz! but Fred and Roxie leave before she finishes to go to Roxie's apartment. They are seen -- it looks like for the first time -- by the nosy landlady and do the two-backed beast with to cuts to Velma completing her song. Fred dumps Roxie, she plugs him and is arrested. I had the impression that was all on the same night, but no: Velma's been in jail for weeks and the D.A. tells Amos, "The landlady says [Casely]'s been burgling your place three times a week for the past month." Sometime between the landlady spotting and the plugging we jumped ahead a month.

[anyrose]

"The landlady says [Casely]'s been burgling your place three times a week for the past month." Sometime between the landlady spotting and the plugging we jumped ahead a month.My take on it has always been that the night they were in the club was the first time Casely & Roxie got together, and "a month later" he dumped her because she kept talking about meeting with his friend at the club who'd make her a star, and he couldn't (or didn't want to) keep up the lie any more.

[twickster]

What anyrose said. There's a bit in the dialog building up to the shooting where she says "Why did you take me to the club that night?" and he says "There was a guy in the band who owed me some money -- I don't know whatshisface." (paraphrasing wildly, obviously.)

[DesertDog]

Yup. I didn't mean to sound like I thought it was an error, but rather a deliberate skip ahead in the story line. One I was blind to until now.

[Eureka]

I watched Chicago last night. It was kind of fun to do so, although doing so reminded me of why I didn't particularly enjoy it the first time. Basically, I did not like all the cuts. twickster's big thing for watchig musicals is Dance, mine is Music. Music with catchy lyrics, zing-y tunes, something with character.

All the frantic cutting between reality and fantasy distracted from the music. It also confused me, especially the first time I saw it. This movie would have been far more to my taste if they had cut way back on the Razzle Dazzle.

I listened to 20 minutes of the commentary--not all back to back-- and was impressed by the description of "All That Jazz"--they deliberately choreographed the onstage dancing to parallel the off-stage stuff with Roxie and the guy. When I say I was impressed, it was in a "ooh, how clever" sense, not in a "Now I really appreciate this". They intended that Roxie and Velma's act be real, but were not upset that some found this more ambiguous.

My favorite song by far is "Cell Block Tango"--and part of that is because the choreography made sense to me--wasn't just flash-y stuff.

For a straight female with no interest in looking at boobbage--I was surprisingly annoyed by how flat Roxie's chest was--and I recall that from the first time I saw it, too.
I also didn't like how naive she was at the beginning.

My first exposure to Chicago was seeing it live, which I've talked about upthread, but I want to emphasize how minimalistic that production was--very little set, costumes were see-through black fabric, mostly, not particularly period, etc. I understand why some of that wouldn't have worked in a movie, but I'm not sure that the degree of flash and dazzle that they employed was either neccessary or desirable. I think they could have done a good movie without so much cutting by choosing either to emphasize the gritty realism (despite songs being sung and danced to) or emphasize the fantasy--you know, pick one--either show the disappearing act of the ballerina or show the Hungyak being hung for real, not both at almost once--it's distracting.

I heard a guy on NPR recently talking about some movie (oh, of course, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button ) which is "Life is like a box of special effects"[/end Forest Gump impression]. Chicago was rather like that--Life is not just a box of Razzle Dazzle, and too much razzle dazzle detracts from the music and the dancing--and those are what us true Musical Lovers look for in musicals.