So you think you're a damn POET too?

[Sake Samurai]

Why does everyone think they can write poetry? Most people are barely literate, walking around with their knuckles scraping the ground and communicating by means of grunts, but yet they think they can eloquently express their thoughts in verse!

Please people, leave the poetry to the poets!

I apologize to any actual poets on this board, but I was just trying to find some poetry resources on the web, and. . .

[Byzantine]

Hmmmm

Poetry is like an asshole; everyone has one. Share what builds up behind you or you will explode!

IMHO: I think Walt Whitman can just roll in his grave but apparently, for reasons that escape me, other people like him. Okay, I can tolerate him. I don't like him but if you do..... okay. I don't like snails but if YOU do.... as long as I don't have to kiss you later or listen to you read Walt's drivel then I'm a happy camper!

This leads right into the CRITIC: they are the hemorrhoids on assholes; not every hole has them but enough of them do or they wouldn't have created Preparation H.

I don't like Walt but hey, that's just me. If you don't like a poet (or a writer, or a movie mogul) then yeah, that's just you. Don't read them, shun their books and point out to others as often as you can just how much that person sucks (like Walt Whitman). Share your own works but if you really find someone you don't like (Walt Whitman) be sure to make your personal (WALT SUCKS!) Feelings known.

Oh, yeah, BTW... what is YOUR poetry like?



------------------
The moon looks on many flowers, the flowers on but one moon.

There once was a Samurai near Seattle
Who hated my poorly-metered prattle.
No Wordsworth, I:
A turd's worth! (sigh)
But love to hear Sake-breath's saber rattle!

[Byzantine]

My big sugar loaf you are near!
around me all this word play so queer!
words so hard pressed
my words more meaningless
hell, I'm just glad that you are still here!

[ChrisCTP]

In the style (sort of) of S. Plath

Night befalls me
And restlessness abound
That quasi-cult draws me in...

Powerless
Driven to Debate
Or simply lurk

Unbeknownst to "they"
And sneak up with the Mundane.

Traipsing and
Tromping through Query
I've little to say
Yet oft reply.

Unbreakable bindings
Innumerable hauntings
I am part of The Ultimate System

Chained: almost, yet
Wonderfully so.

...ah, who'm I kiddin'... Sylvia Plath is way outta my league.

In the style (sort of) of TennHippie

I refer to myself as a poet.
But am rarely inclined to show it.
I write verse after verse,
But just seem to get worse,
So into the garbage I throw it.



------------------
"ChrisCTP-...the sweetheart of the SDMB..." --Diane
Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss (http://www2.crosswinds.net/~domesticbliss/)

[GuanoLad]

He don't like them poems, so I thought I'd show him,
I mix with the best of them, just tell me I don't.
If the muse hits I'll write 'em, and kick scratch and bitin,
I'll publish it, damn all those fools say I won't.




------------------
"Waheeey! 'Duck!' Get it?"
"Errr.... No..."
"Duck! Sounds almost exactly like fu-"

[Nickrz]

As bad as most poetry is, poorly written doggerel is even worse. This forum should be renamed "The Shithouse Wall."

[moriah]

Don't get me started...

Too late.

FREE VERSE IS NOT POETRY!!

God, can there be anything more idiotic than some dolt writing what is in essence flowery prose sentences and then calling it poetry simply because of erratically placed carriage returns?

Nope.

Art without constraint is just self-indulgent literary masturbation.

And now, for the high-school literary yearbook free verse parody:


My toenail clippings
were once
part of me but then I
cut off
the yellowed
crescent piece of dead
skin and flushed them down the
toilet
gone

[Sake Samurai]

...the CRITIC: they are the hemorrhoids on assholes; not every hole has them but enough of them do or they wouldn't have created Preparation H.

That's mighty funny! I'm with you on W.W. - what a hack!

ChrisCTP: That's more Anthony Robbins than Sylvia Plath.

The "Shithouse Wall" indeed.

I have no problem with free verse, in fact in some cultures it is the traditional norm. It's true, the majority of people abuse it (moriah's example and of course, e.e.cummings), but there's nothing that says you must rhyme and use copiuos puctuation.

Whatever best conveys your thoughts. Language must not get in the way.

[ChrisCTP]

Re: Free Verse is not Poetry...

Just outta curiousity, if you want to read a book of words by any one of the writers who do "free verse", what section of the bookstore or library do you think you'll find it in?

Poetry.

Don't be such a snob. How interesting would poetry be if all poems were the same?

------------------
"ChrisCTP-...the sweetheart of the SDMB..." --Diane
Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss (http://www2.crosswinds.net/~domesticbliss/)

Okay, you've opened the can-o-worms.

What is poetry? If somebody writes something and calls it a poem, or anybody else calls it a poem, it is a poem. It may be bad poetry, but it is poetry nevertheless.

Likewise, if somebody paints, draws, sews, sculpts, nails together, or otherwise assembles mediums and calls it art, or anybody else calls it art, it's art. It may be bad art, but it is art.

Sorry, but that's just the way it is. Great Danes are dogs, Chihuahuas are dogs, Labrador Retrievers are dogs, mongrels of all kinds are dogs, even (cringe) toy poodles are dogs. The beauty of the dog is in the eye of the beholder, but they are all dogs.

[Polycarp]

Free verse is worth what you pay for it. ;)

[Imthecowgodmoo]

Poetry is what you make of it. I like things that rhyme, it just seems to flow better then irregularly placed ramblings. You can take just about any piece of literature and make it poetry, it all depends on what the author of the piece thinks of calling it. I for one hate free verse, just doesn't do it for me. I consider myself a very weak poet, I don't try and make very inciteful, deep, layered poetry, I go for funny. I also think that if you spend more than 30 minutes a month on poetry, you have serious problems.

------------------
"I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information."-- Calvin and Hobbes
(__)
`\/-------\
`| |-----| |\
..c.c......c.c....

[Sake Samurai]

A blue urinal may be art and "There once was a man from Nantucket..." may be a poem, but that doesn't make their creators artists and poets.

Just like putting the Pet-of-the-month on the garage wall doesn't make you an interior designer and making a wooden box for Spot to sleep in doesn't make you an architect (and if Spot is a Shih Tzu, it doesn't make him a dog).

There is an elment of craftmenship in art (poetry, music, et al) - it's more than just throwing something together and selling it. Sure, someone may buy the vacuum-cleaner-on-a-pedestal for $202,000 because the "art" world is more about marketing than art these days.

Not everyone thinks they have the talent to paint or write a great short story, but when it comes to poetry - they're suddenly Paul Celan. I hate it, and I hate when they ask my honest opinion about their drivel. No one really wants to hear it, so they're surprised as hell when I tell them that it's "very simian" and "very simian, indeed!"

What do we do when even the damn Poet Laureate of the country is a huge hack?

[Drain Bead]

Just to ask, is there anyone writing today who you consider to be GOOD?

(I'll offer my list when I can think of more than Sharon Olds and Margaret Atwood)

[ChrisCTP]

The MW Online Dictionary had two entries for "poetry":

po*et*ry (noun)
First appeared 14th Century
1 a : metrical writing : VERSE
b : the productions of a poet : POEMS

2 : writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and rhythm

3 a : something likened to poetry esp. in beauty of expression
b : poetic quality or aspect <the ~ of dance>

...and...

concrete poetry (noun)

First appeared 1958
: poetry in which the poet's intent is conveyed by the graphic patterns of letters, words, or symbols rather than by the conventional arrangement of words

~~~~~~~~

Hm. I saw the word "rythm", but not "rhyme".
Personally, I've always thought "poetry" was a general term, with little subclasses (lyrical poetry, free verse poetry, haiku, etc.)

I use many different writing styles, including free verse (thankfully, nothing as atrocious as that awful attempt at imitating Ms. Plath) and I consider it poetry. When I write said poetry, I am a poet. When I'm writing prose, I am an essayist.

In general, I call myself a writer, and the reader can judge for him/herself whether or not I'm any good. I'm still going to write, because it's therapy for me. And I'm still going to call free verse "poetry".

[Sake Samurai]

Drain Bead: Alas, most of the poets I admire are dead. Among the living I like Lucien Stryk and Octavio Paz. Atwood is very strong. I have a friend whom I admire as well.

Chris: I understand very well writing for therapy - although sometimes it just makes things worse for me. Some things are best left unwritten!

[Melatonin]

Whoa, kids, don't go throwing those pointy technical terms around like that, you might put someone's eye out.

As the self-designated inserter of semi-off-topic snotty intellectual asides, I feel compelled to imform y'all that free verse has nothing to do with rhyme.

Free verse is the opposite of metrical verse. It can be rhymed or unrhymed.

Scientific surveys has proven the the vast majority of very bad poetry is, in fact, rhymed poetry written by 14-yr-old girls suffering from crushes on celebrities named Corey.

My favorite poets are Shel Silverstein and Daniil Kharms, BTW.

------------------
"There is nothing you ought to do, for the simple reason that you know nothing, nothing whatever- make a mental note of that, if you please."
-V. Nabokov

[TVeblen]

Sake: the good news is, I won't try for poetry/doggerel.
The bad news: I agree w/ TennHippie.

There are taste and preference and good and bad in any art. But I'd far rather people love language, use it, even badly, in an honest pursuit of expression. That's why, as much as I personally loathe rap music, it still has it's own integrity of purpose: people playing with language, experimenting, making mistakes, but *using* it.

Could this difference of opinion be part of your contempt for Pinsky? Completely leaving aside taste preferences, I greatly admire his passion for poetry and his drive to share that love with everyday people. He strives to give Americans a love of poetry and language like the Welsh and Russians have. He's trying to share a passion for the texture and rhythmn and sounds and richness of our language.

Hey, people *learn*, okay? Everybody is a beginner at something. If someone is still under construction as a poet, then it seems to me the criticism should be constructive, too.

It's patently unfair, and rather vicious, to condemn honest efforts that don't match an arbitrary opinion of what perfection should be.

Cut people some slack, already. So you don't like their efforts. They TRIED, damnit, and the least you can do is give them a kindly and *constructive* analysis of your thoughts.

Bad at a lot of things,
Veb

[TVeblen]

Forgot to add that, of course, that this is merely the opinion of a barely literate, grunting dolt who wishes she could bandage her bleeding knuckles.

It's so annoying when the masses insist on bleeding on the pavement just because they're too insensitive too notice pain and
not literate enough to get the box of BandAids open.

(Grunt!)
Veb

[GuanoLad]

Well, I'm no fan of poetry, or prose (which is what I call a-rhythmic rhymeless 'poetry') which is why my little piece of nonsense above is so awful.

I find a lot of it either to be pretentious, or incomprehensible, and when it's without rhyme I can't figure out why write it in all those broken lines and crap. What's wrong with just making it a paragraph like any other writing?

Oh well. Like anyone's gonna change their artistic endeavours on my account.



------------------
"Waheeey! 'Duck!' Get it?"
"Errr.... No..."
"Duck! Sounds almost exactly like fu-"

[Sake Samurai]

TVeblen brings up some good points (and well put). The only thing I have to add is that I have no problem with people trying to express their thoughts and emotions in poetry. I just have a problem with them forcing it upon others.

Now if you can use words well. . .then it's a different story. I'm not that arrogant that I won't listen to a new voice.

GuanoLad, what poetry do you appreciate?

[GuanoLad]

I don't really like any poetry. Sometimes I might read something and it's kind of nice, but really I just don't get into it at all.



------------------
"Waheeey! 'Duck!' Get it?"
"Errr.... No..."
"Duck! Sounds almost exactly like fu-"

[kellibelli]

I personally really like the poetry of Leonard Cohen.

[Sake Samurai]

Off the top of my head I don't recall Cohen's poetry - do you know of any good web respources for his writings(or should I do the work)?

GuanoLad: Poetry's not for everyone. Schools should really stop shoving it down the throats of students. A huge amount of it (e.g., most of Browning, T.S.Elliot, Longfellow, etc.) is pretentious, self-indulgant drivel. There are, however, many poets who do not suffer from an overdeveloped ego.

There are few pleasures greater than discovering a suberb, new poet.

[Atrael]

This could almost be a Great Debate about the pros/cons of poetry in general. Now to the issue at hand...a few thoughts I have.

Prose (free verse, or whatever you call it) has to me always seemed to be written in a way as to suggest how it should be read aloud. I used to hate free verse with a passion...then I read a poem in that style from a friend...the more I read it, the more the breaks made sense...as I would have paused had I been reciting it. True, it's not for everyone, and sometimes I think the writers get carried away, but I understand the validity of the breaks and spaces. We're so used to the written word, that some of the punctuation we use has lost it's emphasis. Commas are a perfect example...I've had proffesors from my speach classes that debated with me about the placement of my commas when I would hand my papers in....almost always, I'd have to actually read it to them..with the emphasis where I wanted it, for them to understand.

Sake--
So you think that great artist/writers/poets/athletes/actors/etc. just spring out of their mothers naturally great at what they do?....I challenge you to name one person...anywhere...at any time that is/was considered great at what they do/did that didn't spend some time perfecting their abilities.

Words are an expression of thought...and emotions....and shouldn't be limited to what you think is valid. If I play softball with my company, then I'm an athlete...I'm an amature athlete, but still an athlete. Perhaps you think that those people that are "professional" poets take offense at those of us that strive to express ourselves in the same medium. I write poems occasionally..usually to express some emotion..(i.e. death of a relative)...by taking the time to write down what I feel, I also leave something that I can look back on. To remmeber how I felt at that time.

It seems to me that you are a lover of fine poety...much like some people are lovers of fine wines....and thats great, but something is keeping Bartles and James in business....


------------------
I haven't lost my mind, I have a tape backup around somewhere.

Haiku: Recipe

steam-weeping windows
kitchen smells
pregnant cook pause
sweet stirring in

[kellibelli]

http://redfrog.norconnect.no/~poems/poems/04585.html


try that one

[Sake Samurai]

Great refrain
Take this longing from my tongue,
all the useless things
my hands have done;
let me see your beauty broken down,
like you would do
for one you love
I really like how it works out loud. Even the meter seems longing.

[kellibelli]

Please see my thread "Beautiful.." in MPSIMS. I tear up every time I read those poems...of course I can hear them in my head with Cohen's gravelly voice ...I cant describe it. :)

[andros]

This is the important bit:

What I didn't do, is practice for
those first few years in front of people. I didn't place wave samples of my
mediocre fills on the Internet for all to download and I sure as hell didn't consider
myself a drummer until I had a command of the basic rudiments

And I'm sure you didn't consider yourself an artist until then, either. But Joe Blow writes one lame verse and is immediately a Poet.

Practicing poetry is fine. Trying to get better is fine. Even just writing to express emotion or to vent is fine. Just keep it to yourself!

You're right, Sake--putting up a web page of crappy first attempts is nothing more than electronic masturbation.

-andros-

------------------
"Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None!
-Doc Bronner

[Sake Samurai]

Woops! anders: agreeing with me - and over on the Rosenbaum thread I just accused you of lacking a brain altogether.

Chaulk it up to the duality of man.

Next time, please summarily disagree with all of my posts so I can let the hatred slowly build into a mighty Tower of Babel which towers over the landscape of the petty and mundane only to rain terrible insults and crafty witticisms upon the ignorant, scrambling masses!

[Sake Samurai]

Atrael: I practiced drums for years before I became competent enough to play in front of a crowd.

Practice is essential for artistic development. What I didn't do, is practice for those first few years in front of people. I didn't place wave samples of my mediocre fills on the Internet for all to download and I sure as hell didn't consider myself a drummer until I had a command of the basic rudiments and started playing with bands writing original music.

Poetry is no different. My first batch of poetry in high school was as bad as everyone else's. I didn't even think of poetry as something elevated until I won some poetry and short story contest the school was running. Only then did I take it seriously.

[Brithael]

I think some of us are missing the point. The fact that a human being feels something that he/she HAS to express in some way OTHER than in nicely punctuated paragraphs and no run on sentences is the art. Joe Blow sees something so beautiful in the landscape or in some idea he has that he writes a terrible poem...THERES the art. Feelings experiences
And as far as Rhyme vs. Reason goes, I use Both. Sometimes i dont WANT to express my visions with meter and rhythm...sometimes my feelings are bent and misshapen therefore my poetry will be Asymmetrical..Its not about whether you liked my work or didnt like it.. the fact taht you read it is enough. If it makes you see SOMETHING ANYTHING in your minds eye...then it has served its purpose.
But thats just me.
The whole CONCEPT of creativity is NOT following rules. If every friggin poet used Iambic pentameter as the SOLE framework for his poem..then ANYONE could do it. Formulas and structures are great..but so is freedom to just dip your pen in the inkwell of your soul and FLING that stuff on the page...

Do we need examples,class?

[andros]

Yeah, look at all the people since Shakespeare who managed to write as well as he did. Since playing by the rules is formulaic and easy.


Firstly, I agree that it's ok to throw out the rules, Brithael. But if you never play by the rules your rebellion loses its meaning. There's much more challenge in creating something within a framework. Splattering words onto paper is easy. Making iambic pentameter beautiful is not.

Secondly, please correct me if I misunderstood, but it sounds like you're writing poetry specifically to be read and to evoke a response. Is an audience always required, or do you ever write for yourself?

-andros-



------------------
"Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None!
-Doc Bronner

[tracer]

Melatonin wrote:

Whoa, kids, don't go throwing those pointy technical terms around like that, you might put someone's eye out.

I believe the phrase you are looking for, Mel, is "you might put someone's eye out with an iambic pentameter."

------------------
Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.

[Sake Samurai]

The whole CONCEPT of creativity is NOT following rules No, that's the whole CONCEPT of rebellion.

You needn't rebel to create (although it often helps, 'tis true). At least two of the sources that wrote the bible were following explicitly the rules of the early Catholic Church - wouldn't you say they created something wonderful?

Same thing with "creating" a baby.

(Boy, don't I sound wholesome!)

Within the bounds of tradition and laws one can still create.

[C K Dexter Haven]

A CAUTION TO EVERYBODY

Consider the auk;
Becoming extinct because he forgot how to fly and could only walk.
Consider man, who may well become extinct
Because he forgot how to walk and learned how to fly before he thinked.

-- Ogden Nash

[andros]

roflmfao!

Thank you Dex!

-andros-

------------------
"Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None!
-Doc Bronner

[kellibelli]

Is it just me, or did Brithael just contribute a well thought out, well written coherent post?

Well done Brithael.

[Atrael]

Sake Samurai
Member posted 10-13-1999 09:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The whole CONCEPT of creativity is NOT following rules
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, that's the whole CONCEPT of rebellion.
You needn't rebel to create (although it often helps, 'tis true). At least two of the sources that wrote the bible were following explicitly the rules of the early Catholic Church - wouldn't you say they created something wonderful?


Depends on what you mean by "wonderful"..If you mean as a guide to the human soul, and a referance to moral uprightness, then sure, I'll give you that one. If you're talking about a well written, stiring book, then no, they didn't create something wonderful. While there are parts of the Bible that are very well written, there are by far many more sections that are extreamly difficult just to read, much less be moved by.

andros
Member posted 10-13-1999 05:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, look at all the people since Shakespeare who managed to write as well as he did. Since playing by the rules is formulaic and easy.



Yeah, and a lot of his Sonnet's suck....And what makes you think he was playing by the rules then?....Hell, he might have been going against the type of writting style he had been taught....after all, we're teaching our children writing skills based on styles that were popular a couple hundred years ago....Just because he wrote great stuff, doesn't mean that his is the only style worthy of merit.

As far as improving before you share, how do you know if your writting is imporving unless you get feedback?...Further, I know there is much ado sometimes about discovering a known writers earlier works....seeing how he developed, and matured as an artist. And lastly, if ya don't want to read it....don't. Just like if you don't like a particular author's writting style, you don't have to buy his book. If you don't like someone expressing poetry on their web page, hit that damn "back" button....I'm sure they won't miss you.

------------------
I haven't lost my mind, I have a tape backup around somewhere.

[pldennison]

The whole CONCEPT of creativity is NOT following rules.

Yeah, that lousy Beethoven, and Bach, and Mozart, and Tchaikovsky . . . what did they know about creativity?

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

Aren't the Bible and Qu'ran (in the original Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic) written in the form of poetry?

I don't know who is credited with the format of written prose, but I was under the impression that most literature in history was written as verse, and that rhyme patterns were not necessarily a primary concern.

[andros]

Atrael: guess I touched a nerve. I certainly didn't mean to. I was directing my question mostly at Brithael.

But I'll ask you, then: Is showing off all you're interested in? Do you have to have people ooh and aah over your work to be validated as a person? Or can you be happy creating for yourself?

-andros-

------------------
"Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None!
-Doc Bronner

[Atrael]

andros--
You see the obviouse flaw with that last statement don't you?...I'll take it in the spirit it was meant though.

No, you don't have to have people ooo and ahhh over you...but if you are trying to improve your style, feedback is helpful.
Perhaps these people just want to share something with others. If I write a poem about a loved ones death, and it helped me deal with the emotion that ensued, maybe those same words would help others deal with their pain. Would I do it?...nope...anything I write to express me emotions, I keep private....but if someone else want's to post it out there for everyone to read...more power to them.

------------------
I haven't lost my mind, I have a tape backup around somewhere.

[Sake Samurai]

Aren't the Bible and Qu'ran (in the original Hebrew, Greek, and Arabic) written in the form of poetry?
I'm not sure about the Qu'ran but the original aramaic scrolls of the OT are absolutly poetry. And they are stunning. The King James version is a total piece of shit.

By no means is the whole bible written in verse, though. The majority (especially the Greek NT) is narrative prose.

No one knows who the first writer of prose was, but one of the very first (perhaps the first) cohesive prose narratives (i.e., novel) was The Epic of Gilgamesh, an ancient Sumarian masterpiece written in cuneiform. This epic, incidently, has many included Sumarian myths which mirror and predate those told in the Hebrew bible.

It really depends on the culture. Most of the early Greeks (from Homer to Socrates) wrote nothing down, while the earlier Indian (the sub-continent), Egyptian, and Sumerian cultures left extensive records.

[andros]

Atrael, you're right--the only way to improve is to practice and receive feedback. I would add that the feedback should be from someone who knows quality, but otherwise, you're 100%. If someone wants to post their dreck, more power to them. It may, as you say, stimulate someone. It certainly does not mean I have to read the shit.

That said . . . no, I don't see the "obvious" flaw. Elucidate?

-andros-

------------------
"Listen Children Eternal Father Eternally One!" Exceptions? None!
-Doc Bronner

[ChrisCTP]

This is exactly why I don't hang out with POETS.

------------------
"ChrisCTP-...the sweetheart of the SDMB..." --Diane
Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss (http://www2.crosswinds.net/~domesticbliss/)

[Atrael]

But I'll ask you, then: Is showing off all you're interested in? Do you have to have people ooh and aah over your work to be validated as a person? Or can you be happy creating for yourself?


Well sure you can....but do writers have to share their stories?...or Artist their paintings?.. musicians their music?..IMO, most people that try to express themselves in some manner do want some attention...For example, if I were an artist (sorry other thread is stuck in my head) and I just hung my work around my house for my enjoyment...'cause I liked it, and you stopped by for a visit, am I looking for praise?...Rather difficult area to speculate.

------------------
I haven't lost my mind, I have a tape backup around somewhere.

Sake, would you post some of your poems so we can all see what is good poetry?

[Sake Samurai]

so we can all see what is good poetry? Yeah, sounds like you'd be real objective about poetry right now.

I didn't open this thread with the intent of shoving my poetry down anyone's throat, especially not those who clearly don't give a damn.

[meredith]

Oh, my! This is certainly getting nasty! Who is to say what 'good' poetry is? It seems to me that it is completely subjective, unless you are trying to write a haiku or other poem with a specific set of parameters. Even then, whether the subject is worthy of a poem, or whether the poet chose the 'best' words to describe said subject are things that are, shall we say "in the eyes of the beholder". (I didn't want to say 'subjective' and make this post into a tongue- twister ;)

[Sunflower18]

Quick question, would you rather discourage new potes from emerging becasue their intial poem wasn't "perfection", or encourage them so they get better?

I am sick and tired of more experianced poets belittleing beggining poets. I am 15 years old, and just starting out, and I find it amazingly soothing and enjoyable. I don't need 500 older poets to cut me down. I love it when people will give me an honest critiqe ( sp? ) But I don't see the need to call a piece of writing " garbage"

If it it comes from the heart, and is an honest expression of an idea, then beauty can be found in it. If only because it released an idea that was welling up inside sombody. ( IMHO )

------------------
Give these * *
* * clay feet
wings to fly * * *
* * to touch
the face of the stars *

~*~*Loreena Mckennitt*~*

[ChrisCTP]

Sunflower, don't let anyone try to convince you that, for whatever reason they've managed to concoct, your brand of poetry isn't good enough. Anyone who tries to do such a thing is a foolish snob and not worthy of the gift that you would give them by allowing them to read what you've written.

Read the poetry of others, listen to what your teachers have to tell you about celebrated poets, learn the different "accepted" styles of poetry. But don't forget that your stuff is just that...yours. Unless I've missed something, it's still legal (in this country, anyway) to write however you wish, about whatever you wish.



------------------
"ChrisCTP-...the sweetheart of the SDMB..." --Diane
Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss (http://www2.crosswinds.net/~domesticbliss/)

[Triskadecamus]

<p align="center">Haiku: brief poem. </p>

<p align="center">Before you notice it’s crap,</p>

<p align="center">The damn thing is done.</p>

[AuraSeer]

Am I the only one here who thinks that haiku is missing a syllable in the first line?

[JBENZ]

Am I the only one here who thinks that haiku is missing a syllable in the first line?

It's Japanese. You pronounce the colon.



------------------
JB
Lex Non Favet Delictorum Votis

[OpalCat]

To the "free verse isn't poetry" person: Hahaha.

Just had to say that. Me, I can't stand rhyming poetry; 99 times out of 100 it sounds like nursery rhymes.

Anyway, good poetry is in the eye of the beholder. if you like it, great. If you don't like it, great. Who cares? My mom is a published poet, as is my godmother. I was raised around a lot of poetry. I have written poetry that a lot of people seem to like (won contests and stuff, too) and a lot of people also think it's total crap. Fine. I don't really care. Writing it helps me express my feelings and I'll do it if I please.

------------------
--
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com (http://www.opalcat.com)

[Rousseau]

Gee, I really hope that my little haiku about bj0rn didn't start this whole argument.

If I've offended the poets on this site by my lame attempt at a joke, I truly am sorry.

Sake: You are a drummer too? We truly are brothers, man.


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The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.

[ChrisCTP]

Aura: The haiku is even (5-7-5). I'm assuming you mispronounced "po-em" as "pome".

Happens all the time.

------------------
"ChrisCTP-...the sweetheart of the SDMB..." --Diane
Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss (http://www2.crosswinds.net/~domesticbliss/)

[Sake Samurai]

Rousseau: My OP was not a response to anyone's posting on the SDMB. While it's true there's a lot of bad poetry scattered throughout the forums, there's also a lot of funny ones. I can take a joke. I only cringe at bad poetry that was intended seriously. BTW, I truly LOVE drumming - what else do we have in common??

Sunflower: You are, of course, free to write poetry. Please don't interpret what I'm saying as "Only established, older poets should be heard and published." I don't think that. I have even stated that the BIGGEST poet in our nation (Robert Pinsky) is overrated.

(a Pinsky tangent - It's great that he's enthusiastic about poetry. It's great that he's a very good translator [although I still haven't found out if he is truly fluent in Italian - does anyone here know?]. What's not great is that he is a poor, unoriginal poet and he holds the highest honor in the nation. It just reinforces that it's a purely political position and not about the actual poetry - which is sad.)

Poetry is a gift which is scattered all around us. Gather it whenever possible.

------------------
Hell is Other People.

[Sunflower18]

Sake Samurai...I know you didn't mean that only older established poets should be published. I am only speaking of the experiances I have had, and what I have seen happen to other young poets.

------------------
Give these * *
* * clay feet
wings to fly * * *
* * to touch
the face of the stars *

~*~*Loreena Mckennitt*~*

[Rousseau]

Well, for one, we basically warded off a rabid group of pro-choicers single-handedly.

And I have yet to read a post of yours that I really disagree with.

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The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.

[Drain Bead]

Well, for one, we basically warded off a rabid group of pro-choicers single-handedly.

That's funny...last I saw, that thread was still going on strong.

[Rousseau]

Then update it to the present tense. You know what I mean. I swear, sometimes the semantical arguments on this list are just plain mind-numbing.

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The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.

[Rousseau]

P.S.- Flaming bj0rn's unintelligible posts does NOT constitute a "semantical argument."

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The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.

[Spiritus Mundi]

For my first ever post, please allow me to present a large target. It appears that some contributers to this thread have made sweeping pronouncements based upon a limited exposure to English language poetry in this century (or last, for that matter). While I agree that much drivel has been inflicted on the world in the name of free verse, I do not agree that that fact implies that free verse itself it therefore without merit. Condemning an art form due to the mediocrity of the majority of its practitioners would lead to thing like the blanket condemnation of pop music, rap music, and every movie made in Hollywood since 1939. hmmmmmmmm -- maybe the idea has merit after all . . .

Those of you who are even moderately read in modern poetry will no doubt infer from my handle and sig how I feel about the potential of a poetic form that moves beyond the structure of hard rhyme and meter. Those who are not might like to sample one of the finest lyric poems of the last 5 centuries before entrenching too deeply behind the fortifications of hard rhyme and even meter.
To some, poetry is the aural expression of the language of symbol, a medium of sound and metaphor that holds beauty and power in the echoes of memory and emotion. It can be aided by the structures of rhyme and rhythm, but it can also be trapped by them.

On a side note, ee Cumming was actually a very traditional poet. Much of his work was strictly formal in all things except typography. If you look closely, you will see quatrains aplenty and more than a few sonnets among his body of work. It is only on the page (superficial appearance, anyone?) that his poems appear to lack structure.

On a central note--young poets, let no one dissuade you from where your heart leads. Young critics -- if you surf to a person's website and see an expression of personal import that is "offensively" framed in free verse (or doggerel, for that matter) a number of options are open to you.
1) realize that you are a guest (invited or not) and smile at your hosts earnest effort -- been there done that.
2) smile smugle and feel secure in the skill of your OWN artistic efforts -- done that too, never claimed I was a saint
3) Flame the poor bastard for daring to not live up to your artistic standards in all expressions that have any chance of passing before your exalted eyes and ears -- nope, that means you're an asshole and on your own as far as I'm concerned.

Newbie season is now open

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The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity

[ChrisCTP]

Spiritus: I like you.

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"ChrisCTP-...the sweetheart of the SDMB..." --Diane
Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss (http://www2.crosswinds.net/~domesticbliss/)

[Spiritus Mundi]

Thanks Chris.

Wow, being flamed doesn't hurt nearly as much as I thought it might.


------------------
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity

[Rousseau]

ee Cummings has nothing on my haiku about bj0rn.

Spiritus: Speak when you're spoken to, you ugly smelly piece of trash. God, I can't stand you. You make me sick. Go to hell. Go to hell and die.

(For the sake of being PC, I will herein indicate that I am kidding. It's not that I don't trust your ablility to understand this fact, but believe me, there are people around here who don't.)

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The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.

[Spiritus Mundi]

Kidding!! How dare you kid with me you monolobed, hypocephalic, metrically challenged, non-rhyming dude!

hmmm, wonder if I should include a disclaimer here?

Haiku is a pome
A bit like a metronome
All meter, no rhyme

[Rousseau]

hmmm, wonder if I should include a disclaimer here?
For your information, the correct way to say that is "hmmm, I wonder if I should include a disclaimer here."
Stop butchering my language, communist.


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The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.

[Spiritus Mundi]

hmmmm, wonder of all monolobes are incapable of appreciating the implied subject.


Phillistine!!

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[i]The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity

[Rousseau]

There's only one "l" in Philistine, you flat-headed troglodyte.

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The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.

[Spiritus Mundi]

This is fun -- but I fear we have lost sight of the original thread. (Or maybe no body else cares about poetry.) Perhaps they are all happily immersed in The Second Coming or perhaps Great Limericks of the Western world[\i].

Regardless, you have decimated my position with your uncanny focus on typography. (A closet cummings fan, perhaps?) I wither before a gaze blank and pitiless as the sun.

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[i]The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity

[Triskadecamus]

Insult can have a passion, and depth, which gives it the rank of true poetry. To reach those levels one must feel the disdain deeply, and give free reign to the urge to achieve the ultimate in insult: The insult that must be explained! How sweet it is to lead some blithe free spirit back around the verbal battle ground, and point out the sharp nick which they had not noticed, and the blood trail of their incompetent rejoinder, the clumsy knot they tied into their own intellectual entrails, as they searched for a hiding place.

On other matters:

Most people are not poets. Sadly, most poets are not poets either. But write your poetry, by all means. The great value of it is not in the renown you receive from others, but in the passion you feel as you express yourself. Avoid the mistake of thinking that your work is something a whole lot of other people need, or in any way would like to read. Sharing ones poetry is even more intimate than sex. Yes, the great works of the language have enriched us all, but we are talking about you, and your work. Write it down, and put it away, read it in a few decades. If you don’t throw up, save it. Hell, save it anyway, “Listen to the Trifid” was the best selling book of poetry in the history of the English language, go figure.

<p align="center">Tris</p>

[matt_mcl]

I'm sorry, but you simply are not going to tell me that "There was a young lady named Bright" is a poem and that the works of Sylvia Plath are not. Anyway:

TVeblen brings up some good points (and well put). The only thing I have to add is that I have no problem with people trying to express their thoughts and emotions in poetry. I just have a problem with them forcing it upon others.

I do too! How dare someone grab you, strap you down, and read poetry aloud to you while keeping you awake with amphetamines? Oh, wait. I suppose that's not your problem. In which case I would say, don't buy the damn book, espece de con.

[moriah]

OpalCat: To the "free verse isn't poetry" person: Hahaha. Just had to say that. Me, I can't stand rhyming poetry; 99 times out of 100 it sounds like nursery rhymes.

{shrug} Hey, if you think W. Shakespeare and J. Keats sounds like M. Goose, that would certainly be your opinion. Don't know anyone else who would share it, la belle dame sans merci.

{NB: For those who'd like to check out one of the finest poems in the English language that -- shock!! -- rhymes, check out http://hem.passagen.se/jonnyl/keats/autumn.htm }

{NB iter.: For a good rhyming poem that is nursery-rhymish, and yet, excellent literature, check out: http://members.tripod.com/lostsoul/lamb.HTM }


Melatonin: As the self-designated inserter of semi-off-topic snotty intellectual asides, I feel compelled to imform y'all that free verse has nothing to do with rhyme. Free verse is the opposite of metrical verse. It can be rhymed or unrhymed.

Well, sure, I knew that. But when was the last time you saw someone eschew the hegemony of meter, cadence, and verse and yet remained enthralled to the suffocating straightjacket of rhyme?


Now let me illustrate another point about free verse with a free verse poem by RW Emerson:

But in other hours Nature satisfies by its loveliness,
And without any mixture of corporeal benefit. I see the spectacle of morning from the hill-top
over against my house
From day-break to sun-rise
with emotions which an angel might share.

The long slender bars of cloud
float like fishes in the sea of crimson light.
From the earth, as a shore, I look out into that silent sea.
I seem to partake its rapid transformations:
the active enchantment
reaches my dust,
and I dilate and conspire
with the morning wind.

How does Nature deify
Us with a few and cheap elements!
Give me health and a day,
and I will make the pomp of emperors ridiculous.

The dawn is my Assyria;
the sun-set and moon-rise my Paphos,
and unimaginable realms of faerie;
broad noon shall be my England of the senses and the understanding;
the night shall be my Germany of mystic philosophy and dreams.


So, what do you think of RWE's free verse poem? Seems to me like just prose with too many carriage returns. This is poetry just because the language is flowery and high-falutin'? Just because it's 'imaginative'? Just because it's emotional. Give me a break. How is this a poem?

Peace.

[ChrisCTP]

I'm sorry, but you simply are not going to tell me that "There was a young lady named Bright" is a poem and that the works of Sylvia Plath are not.

Beautiful.

Moriah, Sake, other Poetry Snobs: I chose my new sig line just for you.

------------------
"Excrement. That is what I think of J. Evans Pritchard, PhD." --Robin Williams, Dead Poets Society

Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss (http://www2.crosswinds.net/~domesticbliss/)

[OpalCat]

{shrug} Hey, if you think W. Shakespeare and J. Keats sounds like M. Goose, that would certainly be your opinion. Don't know anyone else who would share it, la belle dame sans merci.

What part of "99 times out of 100" did you not comprehend? Sheesh! LEARN TO READ.

------------------
--
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com (http://www.opalcat.com)

[Sake Samurai]

So, who here is up for a little good natured poetry contest right here on the SDMB?

Let's draw up some real basic rules and some sort of reward for the top three poems. I, for one, am very interested to see what kind of poetic talent is lurking out there.

Maybe we should link this thread and start a new one over in GD or MPSIMS.

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Hell is Other People.

[ChrisCTP]

I find it a bit difficult to believe that a poetry contest run by you would be anywhere near "good-natured".



------------------
"Excrement. That is what I think of J. Evans Pritchard, PhD." --Robin Williams, Dead Poets Society

Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss (http://www2.crosswinds.net/~domesticbliss/)

[Sake Samurai]

Who the hell said I was going to "run" the contest? I invited the posters here to draw up some rules.

Please try real hard to read the posts and respond on topic, Chris!

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Hell is Other People.

[Spiritus Mundi]

I'm afraid I lack all interest in battling couplets with anyone, Sake. As has been mentioned on this thread more than once, writing and sharing poetry can both be intensely personal acts. I might share some poems with those who truly wish to read them. But "contesting" my verse against someone else's strikes me as futile and absurd. It's bad enough to do it for purposes of publication. I won't do it to score "points" on a message board.

Besides, up to now we haven't even been ab;e to reach a consensus on Keats vs Yeats. And they're only different by one letter.

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The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity

[ChrisCTP]

Like I haven't been throughout the entire thread.

Pardon me, but I think it's a little funny that you would criticize and belittle people who "think" they're poets and then suggest that we have a "contest."

It sounds to me like you just want people to open themselves up for more of your insults.

I'm game, though. I don't think it should be a contest, but I see no reason why not to start a new thread. I am very interested in reading the others' work...especially new writers like Sunflower, et al.



------------------
"Excrement. That is what I think of J. Evans Pritchard, PhD." --Robin Williams, Dead Poets Society

Chris' Homepage: Domestic Bliss (http://www2.crosswinds.net/~domesticbliss/)

[Sake Samurai]

There is nothing funny about what I suggested. In my OP I mentioned that my vitriol was not directed at serious poets. It was directed at those who would push their poetry on others. Having suggested a contest, I am basically asking to see your poetry, and would never attack you (or your poem) for granting my request.

Spiritus Mundi: What's so absurd about a forum in which we all share one poem? It need not be ultra-personal and emotional. The "contest" aspect is important so we have some honor-system rules to prevent the thread from degenerating into attacks and dirty limericks.

I'll open a new thread over in Great Debates, where we can either launch a contest or continue debating what poetry is and the relevance of certain poetic traditions and movements. Everyone is welcome and I promise not to be on the attack outside of the Pit.

------------------
Hell is Other People.

[Sake Samurai]

Well, the new Poetry Thread (http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000588.html) is open in GD. I hope to see you all over there!

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Hell is Other People.

[Rousseau]

Sake: How can you run a poetry contest when I've already won?

As for the free verse vs. rhyming people:
I'll be honest. I'm not much of a poet, and to tell you the truth, I don't like straight poetry that much. (I say "straight" in order to not contradict myself with my next statement.) One of my passions, however, is music. I actually find the relative lack of music-related threads on this board disappointing, as it is probably the topic that I know the most about. But I have gotten off track. My point is: lyrics don't have to rhyme. However, the greatest lyricist ever rhymed religiously. That's part of what made (makes) him so great. And the best lyricist of this decade, who never made a point of rhyming before, just released a third album in which he does it much much more. It only enhances his lyrics. The ability to rhyme lines while not sacraficing meaning is the mark of a great poet, at least in my narrow mind. Just my $0.02, folks.

By the way, I was referring to Dylan and Adam Duritz, respectively. Anyone who wishes to take this up with me (and lose) is free to open a thread where we can duke it out. Just make sure to let me know on this thread.


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The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.

[Lynn Bodoni]

{{quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TVeblen brings up some good points (and well put). The only thing I have to add is that I have no problem with people trying to express their thoughts and emotions in poetry. I just have a problem with them forcing it upon others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do too! How dare someone grab you, strap you down, and read poetry aloud to you while keeping you awake with amphetamines? Oh, wait. I suppose that's not your problem. In which case I would say, don't buy the damn book, espece de con.}}

Obviously, you don't have someone who considers him/herself a poet in your family. Every time I see a certain family member, I am forced to listen (in the name of family harmony) to this person's latest navel-musings, plus "classics". Either this person isn't picking up on the hints that everyone drops, or s/he just doesn't care. (Yes, this person has a gender. No, I'm not going to disclose it.)

I swear, I could survive a Vogon poetry reading now, thanks to my early training. I wouldn't ENJOY it, but I could survive it.



------------------
Lynn the Packrat

[Byzantine]

Sunflower18 – I'd love to read some of your work. You sound like you are working from the heart, no matter your age. FUCK what anyone says, even me. Write what fills you. Share it with folks that might understand (you'll probably find some good/bad/ugly here) but never, ever, let anyone tell you to stop. You have a voice, a part. Even if you find no comfort here, you will find it within the heart of at least ONE other person. That is a victory in itself. ChrisCTP summed it up very well in her post. All I can say is:

I love so deep so well
my heart explodes like
red ink on your heart
it's just my passion
going
over
edge.

You may not like it, others reading may not either. But one person in my life has liked it. That's all that matters to me.


------------------
Best!
Byz

[Sake Samurai]

That's exactly what I'm talking about Lynn. O' my sister, it was sharp pains to me gulliver, strapped into that chair, shot full of milkplus and forced to listen to the third worst poetry in the galaxy, me ears propped open with toothpicks. Let me tell you, your faithfull narrator was in pure misery, conditioned real horrorshow.

I can't hear Keats to this very day, without vomiting - but it was like that before, so it mightn't have had a thing to do with the old treatment.

------------------
Hell is Other People.

[Sunflower18]

Byzantine...I liked it :)

------------------
Give these * *
* * clay feet
wings to fly * * *
* * to touch
the face of the stars *

~*~*Loreena Mckennitt*~*

[tracer]

Gah, what's with all these "hearts" in poetry?! "My heart is heavy with remorse", "My heart sings like the nightingale", "My heart is uglier than a hat full of assholes", my heart this, my heart that, yadda yadda yadda! Pah!

Can't you brilliant poets out there use some other internal organ for a change? Like, "The love in my appendix knows no bounds", or "How foul and dark is a liver scorned"?! Geesh! I mean, sure, pumping the blood around is certainly a useful function, but it's not like that particular bloody fist-shaped boom-boom box in your chest is the cause of your emotions or anything. Most basic emotions come from the hypothalamus. How about an Ode to My Hypothalamus? Like this:

<BLOCKQUOTE>Ode to My Hypothalamus</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>O stem of nerve and power
Whose lightning strokes surge through me,
A director
Of the basest orchestra
That plays on my endocrine glands,
Ushering forth their fiery-hot and icy-cold chemical messengers
Into my blood like waves of cream or stinging swarms of wasps.
You play my body
Like the puppet it is,
Like the instrument I wish it were,
And all my joys and sorrows,
All the swells and falls that make like worth living,
Are entirely your fault.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Or how about a poem about the thyroid glands? Or the pancreas? Or -- all right, let's not hope for too much -- how about a poem with a kidney or two in it?

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Quick-N-Dirty Aviation: Trading altitude for airspeed since 1992.

[Manda JO]

Sunflower, the sad fact is that if you want your poetry to improve as you age, you have no choice but to listen when more experienced people tell you it is garbage and then listen when they explain why. All artists go through this their entire carrers--it is the only way to learn, because no one really has the objectivity to judge their own work, and to be able to pull the gold out of the dross all artists create.

This is my own number one beef with people who shove poems at me and ask me what I think. You hardly ever meet any one who really wants to know--instead they want pretty compliements. But the fact is, the great poets and writers are and were heavily edited. An artist needs the counter balence of an editor.