Relationship crisis - advice sought please! [Archive]

zhlf210

11-17-2008, 03:17 AM

I met a girl who we'll call Julie two months ago online. Things moved quickly, and she moved in after just two weeks. It was her idea to move in, but things were going well and I was happy to go along with it. She was living with her parents, an hour's drive from my house.

Very quickly, it's become apparent that she REALLY wants children! Within three weeks of meeting her, she's been telling me that I'm the one she wants to marry and have children with. This has been quite overwhelming for me - I really like this girl and think I can see myself getting to a point where I want to marry her and have children with her, but it's all moving a bit quickly. I want to have children within the next few years, but a) I want to take the time to get to know each other properly and b) finances are really tight atm, I have a small two up two down house with no room for a baby and a recession is on the way!

It's all moving too quickly for me. But I don't want to lose this girl as I truly believe that given time, really would want to marry her and have children with her. I also have a tendency to procrastinate by waiting for conditions to be perfect before making a big decision, so I need to filter my own responses and instincts against this somewhat.

But, we have like £250 spare after bills each month and we need to pay food out of this. The mortgage is on interest only and I don't have a pension.

I'm 31 and she's 22. Surely if anyone should be in a hurry to have children it should be me! She says that, if I really loved her then I would be ready. To which I counter, if she really loved me, she would wait.

Any advice / perspectives gratefully received!

Green Cymbeline

11-17-2008, 03:33 AM

I think you know that it would be a terribly irresponsible thing to bring a child into the world when you barely know this girl, and finances are tight. This girl's behavior should be sending up huge red flags... her young age, moving in after 2 weeks, her desperate desire to have kids with a guy she barely knows without the means to support it (does she have a job/make money?) What is going on with her to cause her to be acting so irrationally? How well do you really know her? And what is going on with you that you would have a girl move in after two weeks, and that you would seriously be considering this? Is this your first serious relationship or something?

Please please please don't bring a child into this situation! I am sure you know how incredibly irresponsible that would be. What is her hurry? She is extremely young.

My advice is to buy yourself some extra-strength condoms and don't let her get to them, or they'll likely be filled with pinholes.

pseudotriton ruber ruber

11-17-2008, 03:40 AM

Run.

ScareyFaerie

11-17-2008, 03:50 AM

My advice would also be to run. Very fast. And don't look back.

Someone of her tender years being so desperate to leave home, move in with someone she really doesn't know all that well, and then decide she's ready for the whole marriage and kids thing, well that just sets all the alarm bells ringing.

I predict you'll find in the next month or so that she's "accidentally" fallen pregnant and you'll be morally obliged to keep her and the kid.

Bear_Nenno

11-17-2008, 03:54 AM

Food is a bill. How much do you really have left over at the end of the month? You mention that you dont have a pension. I'm more interested in health care. Actually, I don't know what healthcare is like in the (UK?) but is it free, or does it cost you money? Can you afford the prenatal care, the delivery, and all the other bills that go along with just producing an offspring?

zhlf210

11-17-2008, 03:54 AM

I really wish I knew what was going on in her head :( She REALLY wants children and says that she has always known it. You know how some people are adamant that they will never have children and never do? My theory is that she is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. I think that some women have an overwhelming biological urge to have children maybe and everything else comes secondary? But I'm also concerned that there maybe some deeper seated psychological issues going on too. It seems a bit odd that she has fallen in love with me so quickly? I'm concerned that it might be obsession and not love. Or that she sees me as her means to the all-consuming end.

It was a bit wrong of me to let her move in so quickly, I guess. It raised a bit of a red flag but I just ignored it. It felt like we were hurrying things, but no real biggie at the time as I knew I liked her. But in retrospect I shouldn't have let it happen. As to why I ignored it - yes, I guess inexperience was a factor.

No worries on the condom thing. We've stopped having sex as says it causes her (emotional) pain each time, knowing that it won't result in a baby.

Writing all this down, it seems pretty clear that the only option is to end things before a difficult situation turns into a real nightmare. The only reason I'm not is that I do really like her, and I do believe I could come to want to marry her and have children with her given a bit more time. So I'm turning to you guys to see if you can see a middle way her?

zhlf210

11-17-2008, 03:59 AM

Bear_Nenno - you're right, food is a bill, I probably have about £100 spare each month then if truth be told. I'm in the UK, so we have the NHS is which is (generally) free, so no worries about healthcare bills.

ScareyFaerie

11-17-2008, 04:16 AM

No worries on the condom thing. We've stopped having sex as says it causes her (emotional) pain each time, knowing that it won't result in a baby.
This bit is what really worries me. I know you say she may be one of those people who know for sure they want kids, just as strongly as I know I don't want them, but this kind of thing is bordering on psychological problems.

Aside from that, a spare budget of £100 per month is nowhere near enough to cope if you have a baby - they are constantly in need of something, and you run the risk of resenting the child for the drain it places on your finances.

I'm afraid I still think that staying with this girl is going to bring you little else but pain.

Lars Aruns

11-17-2008, 04:16 AM

No worries on the condom thing. We've stopped having sex as says it causes her (emotional) pain each time, knowing that it won't result in a baby.
Run. She is trying to bully you into having children with emotional blackmail. Is this something you want out of a possible life partner?

Writing all this down, it seems pretty clear that the only option is to end things before a difficult situation turns into a real nightmare. The only reason I'm not is that I do really like her, and I do believe I could come to want to marry her and have children with her given a bit more time. So I'm turning to you guys to see if you can see a middle way her?
No, I don't see any middle way you can take. She's not amenable to compromise. Remember this wise advice I read here on the SDMB: don't stick your dick in the crazy. And she sounds a tad on the crazy side.

Martiju

11-17-2008, 04:17 AM

She says that, if I really loved her then I would be ready. To which I counter, if she really loved me, she would wait.

This is the scary bit I think - that's got manipulation written all over it! If she's really not willing to wait, based on your entirely rational cautiousness, then unfortunately she's not going to be the one for you. Trying to manipulate you over something as important as this is definitely not a great start to the relationship (and it is still early days of course) and I'd be tempted to tell her that.

If, on the other hand, it's the exuberance of excitement about the new relationship that is coming out, I'd be saying what you put above - yes, I think you're someone I could settle down with and have children...let's just make sure we both feel the same way in 12 months time then start planning properly for our future. Putting stress on such a young relationship is only going to break it.

Edit - I see others have said the same (and I missed the bit about 'no sex for you unless we're baby-making' The 'you're causing me emotional stress' argument is about as manipulative as it gets...Run - and run fast!

flyboy

11-17-2008, 08:10 AM

Kalhoun

11-17-2008, 08:21 AM

Cut and run. And do not go near her without triple-condoming. I'd suggest no sex at all, but I doubt that's realistic.

zhlf210

11-17-2008, 08:25 AM

Option A: string her along and ditch her later.
Option B: ditch her now.

There are no other options. That's the brutal truth. She's nowhere near ready to have kids and a meaningful relationship with you or anyone else no matter what she says. She's way too immature. This is why there's no "middle way" here. I highly recommend Option B, btw.

I'm just wondering if I can somehow reason with her and make her see that I'm just not ready to get married yet, let along have a baby. Any suggestions?
Attempts at reasoned logic have so far fallen completely short in the face of her emotionally charged behaviour. She knows she's not being reasonable - I've suggested chatting to someone about our problem or getting relationship counselling - but she always says they will take my side and say she is making unrealistic demands, too soon in the relationship.

TokyoBayer

11-17-2008, 08:30 AM

Sorry, couldn't read through all the advice because all I can think of to say is run, run and run.

discodancer

11-17-2008, 08:30 AM

Dump her.

Dangerosa

11-17-2008, 08:58 AM

ScareyFaerie

11-17-2008, 08:59 AM

I'm just wondering if I can somehow reason with her and make her see that I'm just not ready to get married yet, let along have a baby. Any suggestions?
I think you already answered that one in your following words. It's hard to see how there can be a middle way with someone who seems so fixated on having a baby. If you are determined to stay with this girl, then my only suggestion would be that you help her find alternative accommodation as soon as possible and tell her you need to 'date' for at least a year before your relationship becomes any more serious.

She moved in with you so quickly it sounds like she's had next to no experience of independent living - she needs to stand on her own two feet for a while and maybe realise what a responsibility it is to live by yourself first, before you consider the commitment of a partner and children.

So far you've not had the chance to have a real relationship, to have things develop in the way most other couples do - you've moved very far very fast and have barely had time to pause for breath.

Personally from what you've said, I don't think the relationship has much of a future but if you want to give it a try, you need to have that bit of space first.

Karyn

11-17-2008, 09:00 AM

I would explain yourself as clearly as possible one more time since you seem like a nice guy who doesn't want to be cruel about it and make it clear that you have no intention of marrying or having a baby with someone that you just met. You might want to stop with the 'maybe someday' talk because it's only going to encourage her at this point. I'd say run but she's in your house so it isn't going to be that easy. If she's this manipulative and unreasonable about this issue you can bet it will become her SOP to get what she wants in the future. Don't you want a woman that's emotionally healthy enough to want to take it slowly also?

Good luck.

pbbth

11-17-2008, 09:00 AM

I'm just wondering if I can somehow reason with her and make her see that I'm just not ready to get married yet, let along have a baby. Any suggestions?
Attempts at reasoned logic have so far fallen completely short in the face of her emotionally charged behaviour. She knows she's not being reasonable - I've suggested chatting to someone about our problem or getting relationship counselling - but she always says they will take my side and say she is making unrealistic demands, too soon in the relationship.

You know why a counselor would tell her she is making unrealistic demands? Because she is. As a woman I understand the desire to get married and have a family and all that jazz (though I don't know that I would ever want kids it is not something I am saying will never happen either) but I must say that even though I think my boyfriend hung the moon if he asked me to marry him tomorrow that would be enough for me to break up with him. If he was willing to take such a big step without putting in the time and effort before hand to know for sure it was the right thing to do he wouldn't be the man for me and it sounds like this woman isn't the one for you.

She doesn't sound like girlfriend/wife/mother material to me. Someone who doesn't understand compromise or the importance of holding off on big steps until you are ready is not someone you want to be with in the long haul. Ship her back to her parent's house and don't look back. Seriously. Do it now.

Ferret Herder

11-17-2008, 09:03 AM

Very quickly, it's become apparent that she REALLY wants children! Within three weeks of meeting her, she's been telling me that I'm the one she wants to marry and have children with.
Normally I'm not too suspicious, but upon reading this and how you've already moved in with her, my first thought was that she was very newly pregnant by someone else (who doesn't have a good financial status) and was trying to set you up as the father - you would presumably be too trusting to request a DNA paternity test - while she kept you in the dark about the actual estimated date of conception.

That's probably a tad far-fetched, but still, she is being scarily manipulative, desperate, and otherwise way over the top in her behavior. Leave, don't take her back, don't have sex with her.

If you had been in a long-term committed relationship and she wanted a baby badly enough to insist no sex because otherwise she would be too depressed, then I would suggest counseling for the two of you and a doctor's appointment for her if this was new, out-of-the-blue behavior. But this is an entirely different situation.

Oh, and don't ever move in with someone that quickly again! :o If it's going really well living apart, it can continue to go well while you take more time to develop the relationship before making huge changes to your living situation.

DianaG

11-17-2008, 09:07 AM

Jeebus, does anyone date anymore?

You've known this girl for two months, and she's moved into your house and stopped having sex with you because you won't have a baby with her? You don't have a "relationship crisis". You have a home intruder. In some states you're allowed to shoot her for your own safety.

Get her out of there and next time, try getting to know someone BEFORE you let them live in your house.

dangermom

11-17-2008, 09:11 AM

Yeah, I have to say I agree. At this time in her life, she is simply not good partner material. She is being completely unreasonable and kind of frightening. Run.

A person who is ready to be a mother would not:

--rush into a relationship in order to have children right away with someone she doesn't even know
--attempt severe emotional manipulation
--decide to get pregnant without the least plan of how to support the child

If she does this to you now, what will she be like in a year or two, when she isn't on her best boyfriend-impressing behavior all the time? What will she be like as a mother? :eek: The idea scares me, frankly.

Agent Foxtrot

11-17-2008, 09:18 AM

Don't keep this girl just because you don't think you can do any better. You can.

She obviously has little care or concern for your welfare. Is she helping you pay your mortgage and other bills? Does she work?

Kicking her out will most likely result in a lot of screaming, crying, and illogical accusations (hell, she admitted that any counselor would take your side!), but it's damned better than the alternative she wants.

I think you answered most of your own questions in your OP. You don't need our advice; you already know what to do.

Good luck and keep us updated!

Frustrated Wonderer

11-17-2008, 09:26 AM

Yeah man, I´ll be the broken record and be the 20th person to say, get away, the faster, the better, the further, the better and do not look back upon this decision with remorse. The worse decisions are often made when heart interferes with the brain´s "red flags".

This does not look good.

tdn

11-17-2008, 09:42 AM

I'm just wondering if I can somehow reason with her and make her see that I'm just not ready to get married yet, let along have a baby. Any suggestions?

You're trying to reason with a big steaming bowl of chemical soup. Logic does not apply.

My suspicion is that you're not really the love of her life. You're a potential sperm donor. Any guy with a working pair of testicles could take your place. Go ahead and give her children, but be prepared to be the world's most miserable husband five years down the line.

Lars Aruns

11-17-2008, 09:46 AM

My suspicion is that you're not really the love of her life. You're a potential sperm donor. Any guy with a working pair of testicles could take your place. Go ahead and give her children, but be prepared to be the world's most miserable husband five years down the line.
Exactly. zhlf210, you might not even be needed as a husband later on. What if she decides you're not giving her space, or that she cares for you but doesn't love you any more, or that she's trying to get in touch with her lesbian side, or that you're not the best father for her children?

Leviosaurus

11-17-2008, 09:55 AM

What kind of a parent do you think she would be? Will she partner with you when raising your kids, or will she isolate you from them, keeping them all to herself, only turning to you when they need discipline or when they make a mess? If your children do require tough discipline, will she be supportive as you dispense it, or will she scream at you not to lay a hand on her precious snowflake, and call you 'abusive' while your brats run screaming into the street? If she ends up divorcing you, will she be understanding, and divide your belongings equitably, or will she try to soak you for every dime plus ginormous alimony, so she doesn't have to work while raising the kids?

There actually is a way to keep her. You need to take charge of the relationship, set hard boundaries, make some very specific responsibilities for her and ensure she follows up on them. You essentially would be a father figure to her. It would be a huge amount of work, and you will need to keep it up for the rest of your life. She still will divorce/dump/cheat on you/make life hell, but at least you get *some* of what you want. If you think about it, you will probably realize the benefit does not justify the cost.

You say you are new to this kind of thing. You should congratulate yourself on having learned some valuable lessons, and move on to apply them to a new relationship with someone else.

thirdwarning

11-17-2008, 10:04 AM

This one never should have been allowed out on her own. Send her back home to mama.

I can understand the intense desire for a baby, but she's nowhere near ready to be a mother, and you need to protect yourself before something happens you can't get out of.

The Great Sun Jester

11-17-2008, 10:28 AM

No worries on the condom thing. We've stopped having sex as says it causes her (emotional) pain each time, knowing that it won't result in a baby.AAAHHHHHH!!!! Run away! Run Away!!
But probably don't shoot her as DianaG suggests.

Lots of good advice in this thread, but I'd suggest you focus on the various flavors of, "Run AWAY!" Sounds like she's a head case. That's really sad and I wish her well, but it's also not your fault and so not your problem.

tdn

11-17-2008, 10:40 AM

Don't keep this girl just because you don't think you can do any better. You can.

Double plus true with whipped cream and a cherry on top. More relationship misery has resulted from a philosophy of scarcity than any other reason, I'm guessing. There are millions more nutcases out there for you to enjoy. Don't be selfish. ;)

zhlf210

11-17-2008, 10:44 AM

AAAHHHHHH!!!! Run away! Run Away!!
But probably don't shoot her as DianaG suggests.

Lots of good advice in this thread, but I'd suggest you focus on the various flavors of, "Run AWAY!" Sounds like she's a head case. That's really sad and I wish her well, but it's also not your fault and so not your problem.

Yes, all the advice seems to be pointing in one direction...which kind of confirms my own thoughts really.

I just hate thinking that this is a completely binary scenario, that there's no 'win-win' to be found. I really care for her and just can't see a way out of this without hurting her. I told her again last night that I wasn't ready for a child, and she drove to Mothercare and sat crying in the car park for half an hour...it just makes me really sad :( I will have to leave her, I think, but I can't just do it and leave her a mess and having to fend for herself, it's not my style. Aghhhh!

SmartAleq

11-17-2008, 10:44 AM

Dump the crazy bitch. Fast. Don't look back, don't take her phone calls. That is all.

On edit: Make that all of the above, squared! This is lunatic behavior--there is nothing normal about the way she's behaving.

DianaG

11-17-2008, 10:50 AM

Hey, I didn't suggest shooting her, I just mentioned that it's an option! For the record, shooting her will probably only add to your troubles.

zhlf210, normal people do not sit in the parking lot of Mothercare crying for half an hour. It shouldn't make you sad, it should make you either scared (because she's crazy) or mad (because she's manipulating you).

And yes, you CAN leave her to fend for herself with her own mess. The alternative is taking her mess on as your responsibility, and it's not. Please try to remember that nothing she's saying or doing is about YOU. She doesn't even see you. She's just looking for someone, anyone, to fix her shitty life. Don't be her anyone.

flyboy

11-17-2008, 11:12 AM

zhlf210, normal people do not sit in the parking lot of Mothercare crying for half an hour. It shouldn't make you sad, it should make you either scared (because she's crazy) or mad (because she's manipulating you).

And yes, you CAN leave her to fend for herself with her own mess. The alternative is taking her mess on as your responsibility, and it's not. Please try to remember that nothing she's saying or doing is about YOU. She doesn't even see you. She's just looking for someone, anyone, to fix her shitty life. Don't be her anyone.Focus on this, repeat a few times, take a deep breath, and get it over with. This chick is not looking for help--she is ruining her own life by her own actions. Get yourself out of frag zone and remain clear.

tdn

11-17-2008, 11:22 AM

there's no 'win-win' to be found.

There is, but it might look like a lose/lose at first glance. Consider the possibility that the most compassionate thing you can do for her is to not give in to her.

overlyverbose

11-17-2008, 11:25 AM

No worries on the condom thing. We've stopped having sex as says it causes her (emotional) pain each time, knowing that it won't result in a baby.

Writing all this down, it seems pretty clear that the only option is to end things before a difficult situation turns into a real nightmare. The only reason I'm not is that I do really like her, and I do believe I could come to want to marry her and have children with her given a bit more time. So I'm turning to you guys to see if you can see a middle way her?

Good grief. I think you've got your answer. At first, I would have said that, given the age difference between the two of you, she just sounds really immature and probably has romanticized the idea of children and that, if you love her too much to leave her, you should talk to her first. But this is ridiculous. Get out of this situation NOW. She's pulling some serious mental strings and you don't deserve that. Plus, do you really want to deal with hystrionics like this later in life? She drove to Mothercare and cried because you said you might not be ready? Sheesh - she sounds like a spoiled little girl to me putting on a show.

With respect to leaving her in the lurch, well, she can move back into her parents' house if necessary. If she didn't burn her bridges on the way out, the most she'll suffer is hurt pride. But having a baby because your girlfriend wants to play house (and that's what it sounds like to me) even though you don't know whether or not you can afford it is a disservice to both of you and your potential kid.

Good luck.

tdn

11-17-2008, 11:30 AM

your girlfriend wants to play house (and that's what it sounds like to me)

It sounds like a whole lot more than that. There's something serious going on with her.

overlyverbose

11-17-2008, 11:42 AM

It sounds like a whole lot more than that. There's something serious going on with her.

You're probably right. However, the girlfriend's behavior reminds me a lot of my mother's. She'll romanticizes a notion in her head and, when we don't cave, she'll throw a tantrum or tell me about something dramatic she's done (similar to driving to Mothercare) over and over, whether or not she's actually done it - the way I look at it, for all the OP knows, the girlfriend drove to Mothercare with a paperback, shed a tear or two, then sat there and read for a half hour. I guess I've dealt with behavior like this most of my life, and after talking with a professional about it, I tend to roll my eyes and ignore it like I would my toddler's tantrums (until he calms down), whereas the OP's girlfriend might require more careful handling.

Didn't mean to oversimplify.

The Great Sun Jester

11-17-2008, 11:44 AM

...but I can't just do it and leave her a mess and having to fend for herself, it's not my style. Aghhhh!Dude, if you had romantically seduced her on her 18th birthday with promises of 80 years of flowers, servants and timeless love then I'd count you a heel for ditching her. But try to think of it another way. try to think of it as ... well, like an Indian woodcutter breaking a tigress' heart by not caving in to her rather one-sided desires.

Being able to hurt someone on purpose doesn't make you a bad person if doing so keeps them from making things worse. at 22 she's still just a kid and you're having to play the role of 'parent' and deny her this obsessive whim. Also, anyone can maintain the charade and make someone else think "Wow, she really loves me" for a few months if that's what it takes to achieve an end.

phouka

11-17-2008, 11:45 AM

Mister, this is not a whole human being you're dealing with. She's broken, and she's missing big, gaping chunks.

The problem is, she's trying to solve this by stuffing other people into those holes - you and whatever potential baby she can create.

This is not going to work.

You don't have to make any moral judgments on her. She's not evil, she's not a bitch, and she's probably not even crazy. What she is, is UNHEALTHY, and you cannot fix her.

Repeat after me:

YOU CANNOT FIX HER.

The only way she's going to get better is if she's forced to live like a whole, adult human being, and she cannot do that if you are around trying to fix her.

For your sake and hers, get away from her.

Dangerosa

11-17-2008, 12:07 PM

There is, but it might look like a lose/lose at first glance. Consider the possibility that the most compassionate thing you can do for her is to not give in to her.

And probably to leave very quickly. She needs help, but she needs help from someone who CANNOT give her the thing she thinks she wants - because as long as the person trying to help her can give her what she thinks she wants, she isn't going to accept the help - she will fixate on 'it will all be better if you marry me and have a baby.' The faster she gets help from her family, her girlfriends, the people in her life that are not going to be husband and father to her kids EVER - the faster she will figure it out. The longer you remain in the picture, the longer she will cling to the fix she has determined on.

PeskiPiksi

11-17-2008, 12:18 PM

Okay, like everyone else, I agree you need to get out of this situation pronto. This girl sounds extremely immature, and more than that, crazy and manipulative. Nothing good is going to come out of this.

That said, I know people often stick it out longer than they should contrary to all advice. So if you decide to stay with her for the time being, try this. Do a little research, and put the reality of the situation in black and white for her. Lay out the expenses of the following (and these are the bare basics...):

Initial expenses:
Crib (and sheets and blankets to go with)
Receiving blankets
Changing Table
Car Seat
Stroller
Breast pump
High chair
Clothes (You'll need 4 sets just for the first year, to keep up with a baby that grows incredibly fast...possibly 5 if she has a preemie)
socks and hats and jackets
Bottles and nipples (She'll say she's going to breastfeed, and that's great, but the reality is that there's a possibility she won't be able to, so you need to account for the cost. You need bottles for pumped breast milk, anyway.)

Ongoing expenses:
Formula (see above about breastfeeding)
Diapers (I don't know the prices where you are, but we spend $150/mo just on these two items.)
Wipes
Baby food (when the baby hits around 6 mos)
Toys

I've left out a lot of the extra "fun" expenses for that go along with having a baby (like decorating a nursery), but these are the essentials. If she sees two numbers, like, "Currently we are bringing in X amount each month. To have a baby, we'd need to be bringing in Y amount," maybe it will sink in. I doubt it, but maybe.

Also, do you have access to any small children? A colicky baby or a bratty two-year-old would work best. Take them for a weekend. That might make her lose her delusions right quick. It's one thing to hold a sweet baby for fifteen minutes and then hand it back to the mother when it starts to cry or gets a dirty diaper. But when it's 2:00 AM and the baby just won't.go.to.sleep, or when it poops in the crib and uses it to fingerpaint the wall, or when it throws up all over your cell phone and ruins it (like what just happened to me), reality sinks in fast. Be careful, though. There's a danger if you only take a baby for a couple of hours, and she doesn't get to have real, extended access, she could get baby fever worse than ever.

Whatever you do, DON'T give into her crazy desire for a baby. Not only for yourself, but for the kid. I hate to say it, but think of the children!

Best of luck to you!

thirdwarning

11-17-2008, 12:37 PM

Yes, all the advice seems to be pointing in one direction...which kind of confirms my own thoughts really.

I just hate thinking that this is a completely binary scenario, that there's no 'win-win' to be found. I really care for her and just can't see a way out of this without hurting her. I will have to leave her, I think, but I can't just do it and leave her a mess and having to fend for herself, it's not my style. Aghhhh!

There is a win-win here. You get out of this destructive dangerous relationship and she faces what's really happening in her life. You know, the things she's trying to fix with her "happy-ever-after-family" scenario.

As for not leaving her to fend for herself, as long as she thinks she has someone else to fend for her, she won't even try. She needs to get healthy and you need to let/help her do that by getting out of the way.

You can't fix this for her, and you can't fix her.

Kythereia

11-17-2008, 12:52 PM

I'm seconding/eighthing/whatever-ing the advice to run like a bat out of a very fiery hot painful place.

If you really do care for her--it sounds like you do, and if you still care about her after all she's putting you through here it says something really positive about you--you can still try to remain friends, as horrible as the cliche sounds. Hopefully you can be there for her in a constructive way, no strings of possible children attached.

buttonjockey308

11-17-2008, 12:55 PM

Take the day off when she won't be home, gather up her belongings and put her out. There is nothing but danger and drama in your future. If you're worried about her, call her parents and tell them she's moving out. Mom will probably reach out, maybe not, but in any case, she needs to go.

Anaamika

11-17-2008, 12:56 PM

tdn

11-17-2008, 01:11 PM

Good luck. I'm afraid merely breaking up with her might not be the end. I feel like you have genuine crazy on your hands. Change your locks and stuff, you know.

I hope it's not as drastic as all that, but if it were me, I'd keep my pet bunny in plain sight.

Cat Whisperer

11-17-2008, 02:22 PM

I'm going to say something I've heard on this very board, from people who have experienced it - if you walk through a field of red flags to get to someone, you will be beaten by every one of them on your way out.

Yeesh, I'm not even in the relationship and I have this strange desire to run away.

Good luck. I'm afraid merely breaking up with her might not be the end. I feel like you have genuine crazy on your hands. Change your locks and stuff, you know.
Completely agree. I don't have to squint much to see suicide threats from this girl when she doesn't get her way. There are any number of posters here who have actually married and had kids with women (or men) as troubled as this woman - just ask them if they wish they had run far and fast at the first signs of trouble (and before the expensive, bitter divorce and the 18 years of child support).

Foxy40

11-17-2008, 02:54 PM

Run.

Darn..that was mine. Run, hide, change your number and perhaps go into the witness protection program.

Grapefruit

11-17-2008, 03:44 PM

As someone who had issues being manipulative and entered into relationships expecting others to save me from my life, I concur with the rest of the people here: run run run far away!!!

It wasn't until I went into counseling that I realised how entirely messed up my expectations of others were. There is just no talking sense into someone who is using not only her emotions but your emotions as well to manipulate situations to her liking. Any logic will just be thrown away and turned into an incessant whine of "Why don't you looooove meeeeee?" And honestly, it's not your place to love her. She has to love herself before she can expect others to feel the same. Oh yes, it will hurt when you end it. Crazy people have feelings too... but don't let yourself be tricked into thinking that the pain is your responsibility. It's up to her to learn how to deal with relationships that don't work out. Taking rejection is just a part of growing up.

I've suggested chatting to someone about our problem or getting relationship counselling - but she always says they will take my side and say she is making unrealistic demands, too soon in the relationship.

This is the biggest red flag of all your posts. She doesn't want a third party's opinion because she knows they will count against her. Essentially, she is saying that other people's sane, logical reasoning doesn't count and it's her emotions that you should focus on. Even if it's unreasonable, you should do what she says because you supposedly care about her, right? And if you don't, it just means that you don't love her... and I'm not proud to say it, but this is exactly the type of manipulation tool I used to use. It's always a tactic of the manipulative to try to dissuade others' opinions because "they just don't know what goes on between us! They're outsiders to the relationship! I know us better than they do."

Run run RUN!!!

Hockey Monkey

11-17-2008, 03:57 PM

You are going to be beaten with every single red flag that you ignored if you don't get this girl out of your house and out of your life. (Shamelessly stolen from Anaamika). Two weeks is too soon to be moving in together and certainly too soon to be talking about children and marriage. You've only known the girl for two months. You don't know her well enough to love her yet. Even if you have spent every minute of the day with her for the last 60 days. If she's giving you the "If you loved me you would" line, cut your losses as soon as possible. I mean like pack her shit and have it at the door when she comes home.

tdn

11-17-2008, 04:08 PM

zhlf210, there's been a lot of talk about Julie being crazy in this thread. I hope you don't take it personally. It's kind of disrespectful to the woman you love. And (AFAIK) none of us are psychologists and none of us has examined her. So take it for what it's worth.

But I think you owe it to yourself (and her) to get an objective opinion, and weigh your options carefully (as you've been doing). It's a really bad idea to get into an 18+ year commitment just to get someone to stop crying, I'm sure you'd agree.

Autolycus

11-17-2008, 04:17 PM

Run. Run far and fast. You're not the bad guy here. Sometimes you have to hurt the ones you love in order to help them. The best thing you can do for this girl is to dissolve this relationship. You sound like you really care for this girl, but you have to understand that it's not your job to fix her. The fact of that matter is her behavior is unhealthy, and your actions up until now were misguided at best. Why did you let this girl into your house so soon?

Look, I'm not trying to be judgmental, it's just that I've had my own share of fucked up relationships, and this whole incident screams 'RUN' to me so loudly that I almost feel like typing in all caps.

The Great Sun Jester

11-17-2008, 04:20 PM

...I mean like pack her shit and have it at the door when she comes home.How can he ... oh nevernmind.

lobotomyboy63

11-17-2008, 04:26 PM

Chiming in here to nth the advice to get away from her. Many possibilities could be driving her behavior, and none of them are good.

@tdn, while I understand we can't say she's crazy, we do have to recognize the potential. These aren't issues ppl are supposed to have to deal with in the first few months of a relationship. There's enough smoke that I don't need to see the fire.

OP, much like the Olympic gymnasts, I think you need to stick the dismount. E.g. don't break up with her and leave her alone at your place with your stuff. You may come home to find she has disappeared everything, shit on your TV, etc. Hell hath no fury, and with her current state of mind, I would watch my back.

I'd be thinking about changing locks. I'd be careful not to be alone with her in case she decides to call the cops and claim you've been beating her or something. You might also look into prevailing laws, rights, etc. in your area. Good luck!

supergoose

11-17-2008, 05:52 PM

I hope (and it seems) that you're getting the message here regarding how scary-bad relationship material she is and that you need to break it off to protect yourself if for no other reason, but I just wanted to chime in with another rebuttal of the "it's only because of her intense desire to have children that she's behaving this way" idea.

This is something I've never told anyone and am kind of ashamed of because I know how abnormal it is, but I've really wanted a baby pretty much since hitting adolescence. I've never acted on it, though, because I know it isn't reasonable to do so given the reality of the situation, which is that to date, I have never been in a position to be able to provide a good, stable home for a child. (I'm 24, by the way.)

Your girlfriend may indeed also have a strong urge to have a child, but her behavior is driven by a great deal more than that, none of it pleasant. She seems like a very unstable person, and you need to extradite yourself from this situation. Good luck. I hope it goes well for you.

Linty Fresh

11-17-2008, 06:06 PM

I did the whole sexual-politics-with-a-manipulative-girlfriend thing once in college. When I clawed my way out of the wreckage a year and a half later, I was emotionally devastated, mentally exhausted, and if I wasn't psychologically unstable before I started dating her, I sure as shit was afterwards. At the time, I thought I had reacted extremely poorly, shaming us both, and I felt terrible about it.

All these years later, I now realize I did very well, considering the circumstances. I didn't knock her up, I didn't move in with her, and I didn't marry her. That's about as good as you can expect to end this sort of thing.

Don't worry about losing. You've already lost. Run. Right. The. Fuck. Now and cut your losses.

(Looking at myself now, it's kind of odd to think about how there ever was a time when someone would actually take the trouble to manipulate and politick me into bed. Part of me is flattered, but a much larger part thinks the whole thing was kind of creepy.)

cerberus

11-17-2008, 07:01 PM

I'd add in a red flag on any situation where she's moving in directly from the parents. It's a good thing to live for a time on your own.

Quasimodem

11-17-2008, 07:06 PM

Run. Leave skidmarks. You're being used.

Q

DubsyUin

11-17-2008, 07:10 PM

Sleeps With Butterflies

11-17-2008, 07:11 PM

Part ways with a quickness. A woman who wants to bring a child into the world with a man she barely knows without a solid plan for the future is no kind of mother. A child would bond you to this kind of instability for the rest of your life, not just 18 years.

I would also suggest that you look into counseling. I say that with all sincerity and without judgment. Personally, I think most people could benefit from counseling. At 31 you were willing to allow a woman you knew for two weeks to move in with you. Add that to the situation you find yourself in and the fact that you don't see how clearly bad this is and I think that's a good recipe for perspective. I applaud you for asking for advice, but as obvious as this is... the answer should be crystal clear.

Good luck and keep us posted!

tdn

11-17-2008, 07:22 PM

A child would bond you to this kind of instability for the rest of your life, not just 18 years.
It looks like you're better at math than I am. This is a lifetime decision.

Recently, my GF's son has gotten into his first real crush. GF, being the open-minded type that she is, strongly emphasized condom use. The son turned it down. His thinking is that pre-marital sex is a bad thing. Not because of any reasons of morality, but because he knows that no form of BC is 100%. One slip-up, and he's bound to this girl for life.

Smart kid.

lavenderviolet

11-17-2008, 07:25 PM

Let me add yet another voice to the chorus: No, she is not acting this way just because her desire to have kids is just so strong. Normal women don't act this way just because they really want a baby. SHE IS ACTING THIS WAY BECAUSE SHE IS CRAZY.

While obviously I can't diagnose her over the internet, a lot of what she is doing sounds reminiscent of borderline personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder#DSM-IV-TR_criteria). The deeper involved you get with someone like that, the more painful it ends up becoming.

My guess would be that the true reason she is so obsessed with having a baby is because she thinks that a baby will love her and won't be able to leave her because of her crazy behavior like everyone else (rightfully) does. Thank God you didn't get her pregnant and leave your kid trapped with a mom like this.

You cannot reason with her to get her to stop acting this way. The only thing that might actually help her is professional psychological help.

Bam Boo Gut

11-17-2008, 07:59 PM

zhlf210? zhlf210? ...... I think he's run! I hope so. I can't help but notice that no one in this thread thinks this person is a good idea for you - me included. I've had enough friends bewilder themselves (at best) for years with people like this. You're not even getting any sex? Ouch.

lobotomyboy63

11-17-2008, 08:16 PM

I'm feeling bad b/c I think the OP genuinely cares about this woman. It isn't easy to push someone away when you're still dealing with loads of warm fuzzies from the early relationship. Sorry your heart is being ripped out, OP.

Maybe it would serve the OP to enumerate some of the reasons this woman may have for doing what she's doing. Some of these have already been cited.

1) She's pregnant with someone else's baby, looking to pin the paternity on him.
2) She wants to avoid moving back home at all costs and figures pregnancy will shame him into making this arrangement permanent, also giving her legal recourse.
3) She's emotionally needy and desperately wants to entrap him.
4) She thinks a baby will be someone who will love her and can't leave her.
5) She's a victim of some abuse in her past, looking for a protector.
6) She's got some huge debts for you to pay off.

Other dopers may be along to add others.

The manipulation is, at best, a sign of emotional immaturity...love is supposed to be freely given and adults recognize that. At worst, it's conniving to set you up. Either way, I'm a big believer in operant conditioning: if you cave in to her, it will only reinforce the behavior. She'll know she can get her way and push the boundaries every time, a little further and then a little further.

Moving in together so early, while your brains were in the throes of endorphins, was a mistake for both of you. Some things can't be rushed...you can't be in love with someone you don't really know, although infatuation can mimic the effect.

Freud said something to the effect that we're never so vulnerable as when we love. Maybe you've been alone awhile, just pining for someone who you could share your life with...she may have been in a similar situation. In the best of circumstances, people on first dates project the best self to the potential partner---that's just normal. But when people are needy, they don't see flaws in the other person; it's like a mirage in the desert. And others can spot that and manipulate it to their advantage; they will project anything that will get them what they want or need.

OP, let's turn the tables. If you wanted to marry her and/or have a baby right now and she said she wasn't ready, would you react as she has? From what I'm reading, it sure doesn't sound like you. That, I think, means that her attitude doesn't come from a healthy place of understanding, give-and-take, patience and so on.

All that said, please watch your back. Unstable people are capable of many things. A lawyer I know was telling me about some divorces he'd overseen. He mentioned some movie he'd seen where the character said, "This is either going to end badly or not at all." Be prepared for her to go nuclear when you drop the news on her---and remind yourself that the alternative is years and years of the same and worse.

dgrdfd

11-17-2008, 08:41 PM

Don't even have sex with a condom on. She will dig it out and inject it in herself. I wouldn't even masturbate in the shower with her around.

I am sorry you have had to hear everyone here, but no way. Man you have known her for 3 weeks and she obviously is very manipulate. Those first few weeks should be her best face so-to-speak.

while(true)
{
std::cout<<"RUN!"<<std::endl;
}

I wouldn't be surprised if she was already pregnant (not necessarily by you) and sees you as financially stable to take care of the baby. Get a paternity test ASAP when she tells you she's pregnant.

tdn

11-17-2008, 09:04 PM

1) She's pregnant with someone else's baby, looking to pin the paternity on him.

I don't think that that's the case. If it were, she wouldn't be refusing him sex. She'd be hedging her bets.

lavenderviolet, interesting guess on the BPD. We, of course, can't know for sure. But from the information given, it's a safe bet that she's trying to plug up some deep psychological hole. It may be as simple as her just needing validation as a person.

I once lived with someone who ached for a child. She begged me on a number of occasions to marry her and get her pregnant. Her biological clock was ticking like Big freakin' Ben. You could feel the homones when you walked in the room. I sometimes felt so bad for her that I was tempted to cave in. I felt even worse when I asked her to move out. But being that she died a few years later, poor thing, I would now be the widowed parent of a ten-year-old. I'm glad I did what I had to do.

elbows

11-17-2008, 09:32 PM

If you truly do care for her, learn this;

"You cannot help someone by doing for them what they could or should do for themselves."

Learn it here and now, or take an object lesson, you get to choose.

Everyone is telling you to run because the God's usually send you a pebble, right before they smite you with a boulder. Ignore the pebble at your peril.

I wish you good luck my friend, I have a feeling you're going to need it.

kittenblue

11-17-2008, 11:07 PM

No one has yet mentioned what might become a possible scenario with this girl....she gets pregnant, you guys stay together...and as soon as the child becomes a child, and no longer a cute,cuddly infant, she suddenly loses that maternal instinct, blames you for getting her pregnant when she was too young and not ready (yes, to HER this will be logical) and runs off (most likely to some other guy she's been seeing for a few months already) leaving you to raise the baby on your own, alone.

Even if you stay together, get married, have a baby...she'll still stop having sex with you. She really doesn't like sex. You won't get any, ever again, unless she decides she wants a second child, or a third.....

This girl has problems that are too big for you to fix. It's nice that you are so big-hearted that you actually feel bad for her being in so much "pain"...but she's not, not really. The pain is just her way of manipulating her. I'll bet if you went and had a long talk with her parents, they could tell you tales about this girl that would show that this has been a pattern for a long time. And she will tell you that they abused her and are lying about her.

Run. Pack her stuff up, ship it home, buy her a bus ticket and change your locks. Today.

Eliahna

11-18-2008, 01:27 AM

Hey! I know you! Well, I know a guy who you're going to be if you get the crazy pregnant.

The only person I know who was eager to get pregnant in the first months of their relationship (actually the very first month) was secretly planning to be a single mother. She admits now that she just wanted a baby, saw him as a means to that end and worked on convincing him that she wanted to be with him forever with the intention of booting him out when she got her baby. However, he's the only functional parent in the pair so she wound up sticking with him so he could take care of the children and housework while she did whatever the hell she wanted. She's since had three more babies on her own timetable - once she lied about taking contraception because he didn't think they were ready for another baby, another time he looked like he might finally leave but they were still having a sexual relationship so...

Anyway, he takes care of her and the kids, and he's unable to work because she flips out if he leaves her to take care of those babies that she wanted so badly. She starts messing with him while he's at work - threatening suicide, staging dramas, demanding he drop everything and rush home because she can't handle the children. Simultaneously, she also belittles him for being unable to support his family and uses that to justify "separating" from him every few months and screwing around (she manipulates the situation so he won't move out, so she still gets the benefit of having him as a live-in nanny/chef while she gets to go out and fuck around).

Don't worry about what will happen to her if you dump her; I'm tipping that inside of three months she'll have found another sperm donor and be well on her way to her happily ever after. And you will have had a narrow escape but have lived to tell the tale.

drachillix

11-18-2008, 02:04 AM

Normally I'm not too suspicious, but upon reading this and how you've already moved in with her, my first thought was that she was very newly pregnant by someone else (who doesn't have a good financial status) and was trying to set you up as the father - you would presumably be too trusting to request a DNA paternity test - while she kept you in the dark about the actual estimated date of conception.

Even if she was not, someone so whacked out and determined to have a baby will probably have little difficulty finding a sperm donor or two and still do her best to make it yours.

zhlf210

11-18-2008, 04:54 AM

Quasimodem

11-18-2008, 05:19 AM

Good luck, Kiddo, but I can't help thinking you "dodged" a potential life-sinking bullet here.

Youe "Uncle" Quasi:)

lobotomyboy63

11-18-2008, 05:27 AM

Well, last night I got home and she apologised for all the baby / marriage stuff she was ranting on about on Sunday night. I've been telling her we need to enjoy the 'here and now' of our relationship before we look to the future, and she had done some things round the house (like painting the kitchen) to show that she was making an effort. We had sex last night for the first time in three weeks too.

So, we've kind of rebooted the relationship and I ducked the difficult conversation. The only glimmer of hope is that at some level she does know she is being irrational and tries to suppress it. Hopefully she can truly suppress it - the next time it happens, I am going to try and end things with her.

I shuddered when someone mentioned 'border line personality disorder' - my brother's a doctor and he's already suggested it :(

Wish me luck please dopers!

I can't wish you luck with the relationship...I'm sorry. I think that would be like wishing a gambler luck when he's already lost more than he can afford---yet he thinks rolling the dice "just one more time" is going to win it all back.

I get it, btw: there's a notion that love believes, love presses on through difficult times, etc. But I think you're fooling yourself here. And I empathize: the biggest distance in the universe at times may be between the heart and the head. The heart remains a child, but the head is the older and sadder-but-wiser adult who keeps the child from getting into too much trouble. Usually. I hope.

My interpretation of these events? She realizes she pushed you too hard and doesn't want you to get away. She gave you sex to resuscitate your need as well as to deflect the difficult conversation. You can sweep the dirt under the carpet for awhile, but it will resurface as soon as she thinks the relationship is stable enough to handle it, or until she can't suppress it.

If possible, why don't you have dinner with her and your brother the doctor? If she doesn't know he's a doctor, don't tell her...let her act as naturally as possible around him.

1) A guy I know his got mixed up with a borderline pd and when she got pissed, she had someone cut down all the trees in his front yard. :eek::confused::smack:

2) I was taking a psych course in college and someone asked the prof (also a therapist) if he had difficulty with any particular type of patients. "Borderlines," he said. "They just wear me out."

I will wish you luck, however, with picking up the pieces if it all goes bad. Keep us posted!

Quasimodem

11-18-2008, 05:40 AM

Too late to edit my previous answer, but just wanted to let you know that the woman you do finally wind up with, will be very fortunate to have you as a husband.

Quasi

Ferret Herder

11-18-2008, 06:40 AM

I can't wish you luck with the relationship...I'm sorry. I think that would be like wishing a gambler luck when he's already lost more than he can afford---yet he thinks rolling the dice "just one more time" is going to win it all back.
I snipped this post but I pretty much agree with the whole thing. An exception might be the dinner with your brother, as I think she'll be on her best behavior at first for meeting one of your family.

She apologized for Sunday, but that doesn't change the three weeks of no sex, and the other "baby now!" demands. Three weeks is a really long time in a two-month-old relationship, of which you've been living together for 6 weeks, to be stonewalling you there - and not even for "we're moving too fast" reasons, but for "I really want to have a baby and sex makes me sad if we're not going to" reasons!

If she can be mad at you for weeks about something like this, about demanding a baby only two months after meeting, what will it be like down the road when you're not making enough money or she wants another baby or she thinks you're talking with your friends too much? What else will she demand when she doesn't think your life revolves enough around her wants and needs?

Good luck, I think you'll need it. If I were you, I'd make your own luck by leaving now.

DianaG

11-18-2008, 06:43 AM

We had sex last night for the first time in three weeks too.
Heavily protected sex, I hope. Because if not, you're crazier than she is. :smack:

Dangerosa

11-18-2008, 07:18 AM

Heavily protected sex, I hope. Because if not, you're crazier than she is. :smack:

I have a now divorced friend who was in this pretty much same situation.

Started dating a girl

She moved in with him from her parents after only a few weeks - she got "kicked out" of her parents house and had no where to go......(Really!!!!)

She wanted to get married and have kids, NOW.

She withheld sex to get her way.

He started making breakup noises

She started putting out to keep him from dumping her.

"Oh, I guess I'm pregnant....pill didn't work!"

I'm also not going to wish you luck. I will try very hard to actually feel sorry for you when you end up a miserable creature for being this stupid despite overwhelming signs.

zhlf210

11-18-2008, 07:36 AM

Too late to edit my previous answer, but just wanted to let you know that the woman you do finally wind up with, will be very fortunate to have you as a husband.

Quasi

That's really kind of you Quasi, thank you.

Thanks to everyone else for their advice and support too. I know we've only temporarily 'rebooted' the relationship and I need to find the right time to end it completely, aiming for the minimum of pain and hurt all round.

Current thinking is - after Christmas? We've got loads of interwined social engagements between now and then, don't want her to be in tears on Christmas day, etc. But maybe I'm just being cowardly and procrastinating :confused:

DianaG

11-18-2008, 07:40 AM

If you KNOW that you need to end it, why on earth would you put it off? This won't be easier after Christmas.

And no, you have not "rebooted" your relationship. She has simply realized that she came perilously close to driving you over the edge, and backed off a little. Nothing has actually changed.

ScareyFaerie

11-18-2008, 07:52 AM

I know we've only temporarily 'rebooted' the relationship and I need to find the right time to end it completely, aiming for the minimum of pain and hurt all round.
Even if you understand nothing else, understand this - there is no simple, easy or painless way to end it, just as there is no "right" time. Do it now. Do it quickly, and make sure you're very definite in what you say to her. It's over, she has no claim on you now or in the future and she has no right to make you feel guilty for being the one to end things.

Leaving it any longer will not make things easier or less painful. You are dragging out the hurt and prolonging the inevitable. If you break up now, you are giving her a month to get herself sorted out for christmas plans. You'll be giving her time to get over the break-up and time to start getting her life in order. Just as you will have time to work out what you're going to do and how to avoid running into her.

Just don't put it off any longer!

pseudotriton ruber ruber

11-18-2008, 07:53 AM

Heavily protected sex, I hope. Because if not, you're crazier than she is. :smack:

There's really no protection heavy enough to qualify this sex as "safe sex" other than the protection of being on different coasts. Think of each spermatozoa as being a separate notarized statement of your intent to marry her, or at least to be responsbile for any children she bears, because it is.

kittenblue

11-18-2008, 08:02 AM

No, if you wait until after Christmas, then you'll wait until after New Year's because you have parties to go to...then, it wouldn't be kind to break up before Valentine's Day, why, that could send her over the edge. Then Easter...why, that's a time for new beginnings, right? Then it would be cruel to break up before Mother's Day, because she might go cry outside Mothercare again...so by Father's Day...you may be one.

badbadrubberpiggy

11-18-2008, 08:24 AM

Current thinking is - after Christmas? We've got loads of interwined social engagements between now and then, don't want her to be in tears on Christmas day, etc. But maybe I'm just being cowardly and procrastinating :confused:

The longer you wait, the harder it will be for you to get out & the more painful it will be for her.

If you spend the next few months ACTING like you're happy & want to be with her, she's going to believe that you ARE happy with her. And what's going to happen when you break up with her - to her, it's going to seem sudden & without warning.

Rick

11-18-2008, 08:37 AM

Red Alert! Red Alert!
Run.
Run fast, run far. Do not look back. I don't care how good she is in bed, run.

Dangerosa

11-18-2008, 09:21 AM

That's really kind of you Quasi, thank you.

Thanks to everyone else for their advice and support too. I know we've only temporarily 'rebooted' the relationship and I need to find the right time to end it completely, aiming for the minimum of pain and hurt all round.

Current thinking is - after Christmas? We've got loads of interwined social engagements between now and then, don't want her to be in tears on Christmas day, etc. But maybe I'm just being cowardly and procrastinating :confused:

Gah! Why do people think that the "right time" is anytime but "right now." I mean, its probably not a good idea to leave your terminally ill spouse of many years, but a girl you've been dating for a few months should take one hour as soon as possible. Every moment you do not set her free and intend to is a moment she could be off finding the next sucker/sperm donor/ perfect guy for her.

Trust me on this, from both ends. You do her no favors to try and find the right time or to try and minimize hurt. This is a great time where acting like a complete and total asshole actually can minimize hurt - in two weeks or two months she should (if she were a normal person) say 'that God I'm not with THAT asshole any longer!" Being a nice guy means two weeks or two months from now you are still "talking it over" - still having pity sex (where she will try and get pregnant), still making her think that because you say you care about her, it will all work out in her white picket fence and pram fantasies. She continues to hurt. You continue to hurt. You dig deeper. You invest more time in each other. It makes it more painful.

ZipperJJ

11-18-2008, 09:36 AM

He can't leave her right now because not only are they having sex but she also just painted his kitchen!

...

Dude, why do you think she had sex with you and painted your kitchen? Just dump her right now. She's manipulative to the hilt.

I've been dumped around plenty of holidays and around my birthday. I figured most guys do their dumping then because it saves them a few dollars in gifts. I am not dead yet - she'll be fine.

pbbth

11-18-2008, 09:37 AM

*sigh*

Buy a helmet. Those flags are going to hurt.

Agent Foxtrot

11-18-2008, 10:03 AM

Cat Whisperer

11-18-2008, 11:30 AM

So you started a relationship advice thread, then ignored all of our advice. What was the point of this thread then? Bragging?

zhlf210

11-18-2008, 11:35 AM

zhlf210, you never quite answered my question: Does she work? Is she helping you pay your mortgage and/or your bills? Are you giving her a free ride because she "needs some time to get back on her feet"?

Another question, and I don't mean this with any disrespect whatsoever, but have you generally had difficulty with women in your life? It sounds to me that you're compromising on a lot of serious issues because you're afraid you might not find a girl like this again. Right now you're working the nice guy angle, but that leaves you wide open to being a doormat and really will end up leaving you emotionally drained with little self-esteem intact.

Seriously, bud, cut the crap. You know the problems. Stop thinking that she'll change, because she won't. The problems won't go away with time. And even if she sucks it up and goes to therapy, she'll come out of it healthier and realizing that she used you and doesn't need you anymore. Don't sit there and accept her table scraps of sex and household favors. She is using them to keep you on a leash.

Take it from someone who's been there many times. Please take a moment to read this (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=480847) thread I started not very long ago about a manipulative woman who I fell very, very hard for (some of the content was lost during the boardtest weekend, but not too much). It's a lot easier to be objective in relationships when looking at it from the outside.

Sorry, you are right, I didn't come back to you on those points. She's been unemployed for the last three months since she graduated so I haven't asked her for rent. Instead, she paid for all the groceries for the first month or so. But she hasn't had any income or savings and was putting it all on credit. So we've been going halves lately. She has also bought me a refrigerator and er, a cat (by her own admittance, something to care of in lieu of a baby). She will be starting a job in December and she knows and has agreed to pay rent from there.

I don't have problems really meeting women and dating them & stuff. I am keen though to settle down and meet the right girl, I've had enough of casual dead-end relationships. To be honest, when I first met this girl I thought she was really cool with long term potential, and we had a lot of shared values. This is probably why I supressed the red flags which are lining up to smack me now :(

I'll go away and read your thread. Sounds like you've been through the mill a bit yourself!

lobotomyboy63

11-18-2008, 11:45 AM

kittenblue, you forgot St. Patrick's Day!

Ahem. She may be hoping to gain squatters' rights or something by virtue of living there. Or maybe she'll get your bank account information etc. As bad as it is now, it's only going to get worse. She's going to feel more used, you're going to feel more guilty about dropping her...you'll have makeup sex and the cycle will continue.

Nah. Time to man up, I think---for both your good and hers.

zhlf210

11-18-2008, 11:48 AM

So you started a relationship advice thread, then ignored all of our advice. What was the point of this thread then? Bragging?

That's a bit harsh! I started the thread because I thought that the answer was to leave her but wanted to do a bit of a sanity check and see if everyone else thought the same, to see if there was some way out.

I'm not ignoring everyone's advice, believe me. I'm having a failure of courage to implement the advice which is a different thing. (Although admittedly the practical result is the same.) I just need to man up. I am also desperate not to hurt her but it's looking like that's unavoidable.

I am going to wait for her period to start later this week (to avoid a pregnancy 'scare') and then end it. It feels incredibly cruel and uncaring to write those words but I think it's for the best.

lobotomyboy63

11-18-2008, 11:55 AM

You have to be cruel to be kind. Good luck, OP! And watch your back.

pseudotriton ruber ruber

11-18-2008, 11:55 AM

I am going to wait for her period to start later this week.

I just hope that wait doesn't last the rest of your life.

badbadrubberpiggy

11-18-2008, 12:05 PM

I am going to wait for her period to start later this week (to avoid a pregnancy 'scare') and then end it. It feels incredibly cruel and uncaring to write those words but I think it's for the best.

So you're going to stay with her longer & have more sex with her, thus increasing the likelihood of her getting pregnant?

Do not wait. Seriously, you want to avoid hurting her, but the longer you wait, the more she gets hurt. She's going to get hurt anyway, and she'll probably be angry with you, but she'll get over it eventually.

DianaG

11-18-2008, 12:13 PM

If you really didn't want to hurt her, you'd stop stringing her along. What you don't want is to be the bad guy. Too bad. No matter when you do it, you're going to be the bad guy. Suck it up and get it done.

kittenblue

11-18-2008, 12:24 PM

Is she going to cry when her period starts? Sigh.

Ann Onimous

11-18-2008, 12:40 PM

Run. The sooner, the faster, the better. It's possible she is now using you to have the one thing she seems to really want - a baby. Then you'll be hooked for the rest of your life, whether you want to be or not.

Listen to these fine folks. Do not wait. Do not pass Go, but take the $200 if you can find it.

overlyverbose

11-18-2008, 12:59 PM

I don't have problems really meeting women and dating them & stuff. I am keen though to settle down and meet the right girl, I've had enough of casual dead-end relationships. To be honest, when I first met this girl I thought she was really cool with long term potential, and we had a lot of shared values. This is probably why I supressed the red flags which are lining up to smack me now :(

Okay, here's a huge cliche, but don't let something like this get in the way of your long-term happiness. I know that things seem to have suddenly gotten better, but they're going to get bad again - really, really bad. If she went off the deep end because you nicely told her you didn't think now was the right time for a baby, she's going to go off the deep end again, whether for this reason or another.

I'm glad you said that you're getting out. But what the heck does her period have to do with it? Are you waiting to make sure you didn't get her pregnant? Does she get really emotional or something? What's the deal?

OpalCat

11-18-2008, 12:59 PM

I'm seconding/eighthing/whatever-ing the advice to run like a bat out of a very fiery hot painful place.

Maybe I'm evil, but I'm giggling insanely picturing a poor little bat, panicked and worried for its life, trying to escape quickly... by running. Mental picture = awesome.

That said, I agree with the rest... this situation has bad written all over it.

tsarina

11-18-2008, 01:08 PM

Reading the BPD description, I suddenly had a name for how my boyfriend acts.

I'm in the exact same position you are, dude, albeit with the genders reversed and a full year into the relationship. And I'm telling you, IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER. The same crazy, manipulative shit my boyfriend pulled a year ago, when I could've safely gotten out without too much fallout, is the same shit he's pulling now, and I wish like hell I could go back in time and end it when I had the opportunity.

I know what you mean about it being hard. Like you, I realize that I'm doing the cowardly thing and just dragging it out, but I honestly don't know how to end the relationship without him flipping out and saying or doing something crazy.

I feel so bad about lying to him, and about wasting my time and his time when I know we'd have a rotten life together, but I don't know what else to do.

This thread has been educational, guys - thanks for everyone's replies.

Cat Whisperer

11-18-2008, 01:18 PM

That's a bit harsh! I started the thread because I thought that the answer was to leave her but wanted to do a bit of a sanity check and see if everyone else thought the same, to see if there was some way out.

I'm not ignoring everyone's advice, believe me. I'm having a failure of courage to implement the advice which is a different thing. (Although admittedly the practical result is the same.) I just need to man up. I am also desperate not to hurt her but it's looking like that's unavoidable.<snip>
Perhaps I was a bit harsh. You're probably getting the fallout from years of people asking for advice and then arguing with everyone giving them advice or just flat out ignoring it (and, my personal favourite, continuing to post and complain about the situation or ask for more advice to ignore). It's your life to live as you choose, of course, and you know the situation far better than we do.

Karyn

11-18-2008, 01:57 PM

SmartAleq

11-18-2008, 02:22 PM

Well, last night I got home and she apologised for all the baby / marriage stuff she was ranting on about on Sunday night. I've been telling her we need to enjoy the 'here and now' of our relationship before we look to the future, and she had done some things round the house (like painting the kitchen) to show that she was making an effort. We had sex last night for the first time in three weeks too.

My guess is you don't do much fishing--you have to keep paying out line to make the fish think it's getting away and swim faster, thereby tiring it out so you can bring it in and gaff it good. Don't wait for anything, just get her the hell out.

I know what you mean about it being hard. Like you, I realize that I'm doing the cowardly thing and just dragging it out, but I honestly don't know how to end the relationship without him flipping out and saying or doing something crazy.

Just. Get. The. Fuck. Out. Don't have a big "discussion," don't let him get wound up, just pack your shit and GTFO. Go stay with your parents or a friend or whatever, leave a letter telling him "it ain't working, I'm done, there is no discussion to be had, don't contact me" and if he bugs you get a restraining order. I know women who ended up in the hospital because they were "too nice" to just cut and run and felt they "owed it to him" to give him the opportunity for drama--and it turned very ugly, very fast.

At this point, all you should care about is that he doesn't flip out and do something crazy TO YOU. He can do anything he wants to himself--if you're feeling really guilty go ahead and make the mental hold call and get him a little vacation in a quiet place where he cant' harm himself. It has the added benefit of teaching the overly dramatic that there are mechanisms in place to control their behavior that they don't have any say in, and people who just don't give a shit about their craziness, except insofar as controlling it.

I'm serious as a heart attack, girl, don't fuck about with this, just go.

lobotomyboy63

11-18-2008, 03:55 PM

I hope we've hashed out the reasons why this situation is unacceptable and dangerous for the OP. Maybe we could provide him with suggestions of the best way to handle things or things to watch out for?

I think it would be good to stash any valuables you have lying around, as well as personal information like bank account numbers, credit cards, and so on.

I think it would be good to change the locks before dropping the bomb. Her stuff should be outside and this conversation can take place, safely, over the phone or in a very public place. Don't expect that she'll cooperate and go quietly.

IANAL and IIRC you mentioned pounds in the OP, so you're in England where the laws are different anyway. It wouldn't hurt to talk to the police or someone over there who can tell you your rights, her rights, etc.

Sorry, I like to pre-disaster these things as much as possible. I predict she will demand "her" refrigerator back and possibly the food in it; the cat will be "yours." I'd also think about what kind of grief she could cause you. E.g. what if she shows up at your work and throws a flaming hissy fit? What if she melts down in front of your neighbors? If you're renting, what if she goes to your landlord---did you break any rules/laws by allowing another person to live there?

I'd be as decent as I could be, but firm above all else. Say you'd like to continue the relationship but not living together---she probably won't bite on that, but it's worth a try, I think. You were glad to provide her a place to stay but soon she'll be starting work and can start off in her own place. Offer to buy the refrigerator from her so she'll have some cash (if you can).

Is there *anybody* who has her ear? A friend, family, someone? If so, enlist that person's help; she'll be so pissed she probably won't listen to you, but a third party may be able to help.

I'm an American so legal things like this may make me way paranoid, but I wouldn't be alone with her...a witness is a marvelous thing to have on your side.

Put your guilt to some use. Maybe you can call around and find an inexpensive place for her to stay so she won't have that to deal with right away.

Quasimodem

11-18-2008, 05:21 PM

I totally concur with lobotomyboy. This is all very good advice, being that you don't wanna wind up like the Michael Douglas character in the film Fatal Attraction;)

Note to lobotomyboy: "Pissed" in England means "drunk".

Don't mind me, I'm anal (not retentive - explosive! :))

Quasi

Leviosaurus

11-18-2008, 05:28 PM

Hopefully you won't get dragged along with the "I need time to find a new place" excuse for not moving out. That happened to me once and it went on for almost 2 months until I finally had to pack his stuff up, put it outside and change the locks while he was at work. He found a new place that day. Your plan to end it needs to include how to get her out as quickly as you can. If you think this is bad, imagine breaking up with her and then spending another month or two living in a house with someone that's crying and begging incessantly for you to change your mind.I went through that one too - it was hell. Worse, because she was unemployed and refused to get a job, so I didn't have the opportunity to pack up her stuff when she wasn't there. I owned the house, so I couldn't move out. My father suggested moving outmyself and having all the utilities shut off. I did change the locks when she finally left after 3 months of utter hell.

You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free

Grapefruit

11-18-2008, 05:42 PM

Oh. My. God.

There is a definite pattern of manipulation here. Trust me, as someone who used to be that girl with that pattern of manipulative behaviour, you have to get out. The biggest worry is that you have a cat together!!! Before I went into therapy, there I was the girl in a relationship almost like this one (minus the baby drama). I convinced him to adopt a few cats together, pretended we were going to have this awesome wonderful life, threatened to kill myself when he suggested that we stop seeing each other. I didn't even want the cats after a while but used them to tie us together. I didn't even really take care of them or bond with them like a good owner should. When he finally got the guts to end it, I pleaded and whined about how much I was going to miss the cats and convinced him to let me keep the key to his place so I could visit whenever I wanted. It wouldn't be fair to the cats if I abandoned them, I said. You can imagine how imposing I was on him and his capability to move on, no? It's only fortunate for him that one day I did realise that I couldn't go on being a shell of a person that I was and sought some help. I can't say that the same happens to everyone who grew up in environments of manipulation and emotional blackmail.

For the love of god, get your act together, stop being a "nice guy" and boot her manipulative ass out!!!

Bam Boo Gut

11-18-2008, 05:59 PM

[QUOTE=lobotomyboy63;10465704] snip the cat will be "yours."

QUOTE]
So true - it will give her an excuse to keep "caring" about it and playing further games. Please please get her out. You truly seem like a nice bloke, and even if you were not, this is not a good situation. Don't drag it out - just do it - now, before Christmas, and every other reason.

A friend of mine married La Crazy. They had one kid. He didn't want any more - at least not for a while. Next thing oops the pill didn't work. Now he's got twins too. Three kids under the age of three. Crazy drinks and drugs. In the past year we've had her crash drunkenly into the back of a gas truck, she's spent a week in hospital following a suicide attempt. She's run two credit cards up to SIX THOUSAND quid. She's had an invervention done and managed one week in a rehab. A couple of months ago my friend had her committed to the mental hospital. She was picked up and dropped home after this, then her first action was to stop and buy six bottles of wine on the way to pick up the oldest kid - that kid is two and a half. Two days after release she was getting him to sign divorce papers. Hurrah! My friend is a quivering shell of his former self. He's lost his self esteem, his business is heavily in debt, he can't concentrate. It's pretty frightening to see a grown man cry as he does. Heart wrenching sobs. She plays head games with the kids. I can't bear to describe to you how the kids are suffering. He's a great dad and the kind of man who loves to give flowers and buy small gifts. She constantly tells him he's worthless. She'll give him a blow job if she wants something.

If only for the sake of the potential unborn child - please get out of this. Listen to your brother the doctor. Everyone has a down time in their lives where they think they'll settle for something - later much better things happen.

Bam Boo Gut

11-18-2008, 06:02 PM

j666

11-18-2008, 07:13 PM

zhfl, when I read that you'd stopped have sex, my first thought was, 'Well, that's not going to get her a baby'. Maybe one of her friend's pointed that out to her.

She doesn't sound crazy or abused or desperate for love to me; she sounds like a conniving little scam artist who is too stupid to wait for the right moment.

You, OTOH, are smart (this is the Lake Woebegone of message boards). You have to get rid of her, and protect your ass and your assets. You cannot break up gently and respectfully.

During the Christmas season, when she is waxing lyrical about your children playing under the Christmas tree in years to come, be bored and cruel. Tell her you don't want kids. Or, even better, confess you are infertile. When you get that feeling to succor and protect, do the exact opposite of what your heart tells you.

Basically, encourage her to hysterically threaten suicide; give her a few drinks to calm her down. Then call 999* and have her committed involuntarily. Mention in private to the police that she's threatened suicide before, but this is the first time she's threatened to kill you, too. Apply for a Restraining Order that night.

If I am wrong, she will hate you; if I am right, she will respect you. Either way, she'll be gone.

More advice?
Clear your internet history immediately after reading this post.
Have the house checked for monitoring devices before you con her.
Change all your passwords, to everything.
Do not discuss her on the phone or on your cell phone.
Put an inconspicuous mark on your cell so she can not switch it with another.
Spend all your savings immediately. (Ideally on new locks and window grates while she's locked up.)
Cancel all your current credit cards.
Prohibit any automatic or online transfers from your bank account.
Put everything you cherish in safe storage; hell, put your house in a family trust.
Tell every friend and your family that you are afraid of her.
Consult an attorney that specializes in divorce for more advice; if s/he thinks my advice is excessive, find another one.

I once worked with a divorce attorney; people really do horrible things, and the courts aren't very good at sorting it all out.

Do not trust in being right.
Do not be a nice person; nice people just enable people like her.
Do not believe she is motivated by love for you, or even the desire for a baby. She's pulling a con, and rather ineptly at that.
Do not worry about her.
Do not worry about her reputation.
Do not have potentially procreative sex with her again. (If you get the urge, check the condom with water first; a dress-makers pin can make an imperceptible hole.)

Do not be embarrassed that you fell for her. Con artists are usually persuasive and charming people; if they aren't, they have to get jobs.

Eliahna

11-18-2008, 07:53 PM

I am going to wait for her period to start later this week (to avoid a pregnancy 'scare') and then end it. It feels incredibly cruel and uncaring to write those words but I think it's for the best.

That's actually probably a pretty good idea. If she gets her period before you end it, you'll know it's less likely to be true if she tries to pull that "But I'm pregnant with your baby!" crap on you. Note: less likely, not impossible (you can still get your period when you're pregnant, particularly in the first month - and sometimes women get implantation bleeding which can be mistaken for a light period).

It hardly needs to be said but just in case... DO NOT have sex with her again!

Agent Foxtrot

11-19-2008, 08:47 AM

Any updates?

Karyn

11-19-2008, 08:58 AM

I went through that one too - it was hell. Worse, because she was unemployed and refused to get a job, so I didn't have the opportunity to pack up her stuff when she wasn't there. I owned the house, so I couldn't move out. My father suggested moving outmyself and having all the utilities shut off. I did change the locks when she finally left after 3 months of utter hell.

I was only renting but I couldn't leave either because I had a 6 month lease and I wasn't going to leave him there and get stuck with the bills for whatever damage he might do. I finally go so frustrated that I got a few big male friends to take turns staying with me until he had been gone for a week. He freaked out when he saw his stuff out there so I was scared to be there alone. The only funny part was one day when I picked up the phone after about the 20th call in 2 hours and just started screaming at him to leave me alone. Unfortunately it was my landlord on the phone that time. Luckily she had a sense of humor and some sympathy for the situation.