KGS: sad. SDMB: sadder.

[Aswan]

I occasionally read the SDMB for its enlightened and energetic and frequently humorous discussions, but I have never posted to it because I typically don’t feel I have anything to further the conversation. But I am moved to do so today.

I am saddened by the board’s response to an obviously challenged (and uninformed) individual who, for whatever reasons, decided to publicly assert what he feels are legitimate arguments in a debate dedicated to that subject. The discussion was, after all, about a topic that holds no mainstream support to begin with. That KGS decided to take his ire when challenged out in the pit was questionable, but on review a decision that most right-minded, sincere, and sympathetic people would view as an unfortunate mistake. And let it go at that.

Der Trihs is completely correct in his observations about what science is and isn’t, however abrasively he chooses to convey them. His views on religion and the spiritual world (should there be one) are, however, not facts but personal opinions that he is welcome to, as are the opinions of others who may hold differing views. As a civilized society, we have come to tolerate these differing beliefs for the greater good.

We have rules, people. You can call them social conventions, etiquette, mores, whatever. But in the end, they are rules. They allow us to get along together despite our differences and make progress as a group.

Do you make fun of proud winners in the Special Olympics? “You moron, my grandmother could beat you in a race!” Do you disparage someone on crutches who isn’t moving quite as fast as you’d like in the checkout line at the grocery store? “Oh, get out of the way, you gimp!”

No. You demonstrate respect for someone who, despite obvious challenges, is soldiering on.

It appears that KGS has read a few authoritative scientific articles and some less so authoritative and some not so authoritative at all and has internalized a world view that many would find strange and difficult to support. To challenge these ideas calmly and rationally on their merits is acceptable, in fact the point of an SDMB discourse. To ridicule at great length and bait someone to further embarrass and humiliate themselves is not. It merely displays an ugly character and a lack of respect and decency. I hope you are all ashamed of your behavior.

You can argue all you want with a glacier, but it will continue to gouge out the Grand Canyon whether you like it or not. The wiser choice is to accept the fact of the Grand Canyon. And wonder at it, not judge it.

[askeptic]

he said oh so judgingly...

[Hamadryad]

I don't feel ashamed at all. There are plenty of places on the Internet - and in the real world, I'm sorry to say - where addlepated notions like aura-reading and crystal-gazing and spells and counterspells and spirits are all given the same careful consideration and rational discussion as chemistry, biology, or astrophysics. I am very, very happy to say that this is not one of them.

A Special Olympian would not enter a competition against a mainstream competitor, and a new-age yaboo shouldn't go throwing around the idea that he or she is performing "science" in a place where people actually know what science IS.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

link?

[Q.E.D.]

link?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=493099

Good luck wading through all that.

[Chimera]

While you may not like the "personal" manner in which such things are handled, I very much disagree with the idea that we must dumb down the conversation and accept another person's ill informed nonsense as if it is a valid opinion on a subject when it is clearly not so.

Not everything is equally true, all opinions are not equally valid, all ideas are not equally acceptable, all morals are not equivalent.

[mswas]

Aswan It falls on deaf ears. Everyone wants an underclass who they can kick. They like to talk about how backward people in India are for having a caste dedicated to that purpose, but ultimately it's all the same. Most of the time, most people just want to kick someone, as Hamadryad so eloquently displays here.

If you made fun of homosexuals, transsexuals or any other 'protected class' that the liberal PC elite has decided is verboten you would get piled on by the exact some people for your intolerance. It's funny, it's hypocritical and it's sad.

If I made fun of Der Trihs for having asperger's and being completely and totally socially inept, as he clearly is, that would get me a pile on. But of course it's ok because KGS personality quirks manifest themselves in the way that makes it ok to be totally nasty and mean on this message board.

When people here speak of tolerance, it's a complete and total sham. Tolerance is for things you have a problem with. There is no tolerance here. People who have no problem with homosexuality are not being tolerant of homosexuals. They don't need to be tolerant because they have no problem with it.

Let this Pit thread proceed apace and watch as all the equivocations as to why people don't need to be tolerant to 'certain people' come about.

I could list off which ones will jump on my directly for making this post, but I don't want to list them off in the off chance they'll surprise me and not respond to their Pavlovian triggers.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=493099

Good luck wading through all that.
Thanks for the link.

But after a brief scan of the first page, I think I'd be best served by continuing to avoid that particular thread.

I get enough craziness at work.

[mswas]

While you may not like the "personal" manner in which such things are handled, I very much disagree with the idea that we must dumb down the conversation and accept another person's ill informed nonsense as if it is a valid opinion on a subject when it is clearly not so.

Not everything is equally true, all opinions are not equally valid, all ideas are not equally acceptable, all morals are not equivalent.

Attacking an idea isn't the same as attacking a person. Something that certain people have never figured out.

[Aswan]

Askeptic: “he said oh so judgingly...”

Perhaps. But when a child misbehaves in public, often that’s the place to correct the behavior.

Hamadryad: “A Special Olympian would not enter a competition against a mainstream competitor, and a new-age yaboo shouldn't go throwing around the idea that he or she is performing "science" in a place where people actually know what science IS.”

But you don’t beat him senseless. In fact, you don’t beat him at all.

[Q.E.D.]

ut after a brief scan of the first page, I think I'd be best served by continuing to avoid that particular thread.

Can't say as I blame you.

[Aswan]

mswas: "Attacking an idea isn't the same as attacking a person. Something that certain people have never figured out."

I think the idea was attacked thoroughly. What bothered me was that the person was attacked even more thoroughly, humiliated and embarrassed. Bringing a knife to a gunfight is a serious mistake—this was the mistake KGS made. Decent people wouldn’t have shot him down in the street. This is something that other people apparently haven’t figured out as well.

[Aswan]

Chimera: “While you may not like the "personal" manner in which such things are handled, I very much disagree with the idea that we must dumb down the conversation and accept another person's ill informed nonsense as if it is a valid opinion on a subject when it is clearly not so.

Not everything is equally true, all opinions are not equally valid, all ideas are not equally acceptable, all morals are not equivalent.”

I never suggested that the conversation be “dumbed down.” Just that the song be separated from the singer.

If you had suggested a thousand years ago that the Earth revolved around the sun, you’d have been attacked, ideologically as well as physically. That’s what I saw happen to KGS, and I’d like to think we’ve evolved a bit since then.

All opinions are valid, subject to the social conscience. It’s okay to hate broccoli without explanation. But not people.

Perhaps I have an idea for a perpetual motion machine. You may laugh it off, but when I turn on my car and gasoline spills out of the tank…

Finally, if you choose to live among cannibals, better to not criticize dinner lest you become it.

[askeptic]

Askeptic: “he said oh so judgingly...”

Perhaps. But when a child misbehaves in public, often that’s the place to correct the behavior.



OOOOOh. Judgmental AND condescending and unintentionally ironic.

mswas: "Attacking an idea isn't the same as attacking a person. Something that certain people have never figured out."

I think the idea was attacked thoroughly. What bothered me was that the person was attacked even more thoroughly, humiliated and embarrassed. Bringing a knife to a gunfight is a serious mistake—this was the mistake KGS made. Decent people wouldn’t have shot him down in the street. This is something that other people apparently haven’t figured out as well.

One day maybe you'll learn the meaning of false equivalence. Calling an idiot an idiot is hardly the same thing as shooting him. People want to spout nonsense I see no reason we should treat them with kid gloves. After all it is just words on a computer screen if they don't like it they can surf somewhere else. Same goes for you. We are not here for any grand or important reason we are just wiling away some time, if it offends your sense of decency feel free to move on.

[Revtim]

I think the idea was attacked thoroughly. What bothered me was that the person was attacked even more thoroughly, humiliated and embarrassed. Bringing a knife to a gunfight is a serious mistake—this was the mistake KGS made. Decent people wouldn’t have shot him down in the street. This is something that other people apparently haven’t figured out as well.He started the pit thread himself, specifically to attack a person. Although I believe people should have backed off once it was obvious he had been diagnosed with mental problems, until that was known he could not have been more fair game. Plus, let's not forget we are only talking about a message board thread. Sounds like you might be taking that more seriously than you should.

[Aswan]

And perhaps one day you’ll learn what metaphorical speech is. And from what I’ve read, you DO feel that you are here for some grand important reason. At least, that’s what your attitudes and speech clearly communicate.

I’m relatively certain you know what the meaning of “fair game” is to the Mormons. Your use of it does not flatter you. After two pages, it was obvious what was happening and what was going to continue happen…for 15 more pages. Sad.

Oh, and welcome to America. I disagree with your opinions and I don’t feel that that compels me to “surf elsewhere.” Should I give you the same option?

[askeptic]

And perhaps one day you’ll learn what metaphorical speech is. And from what I’ve read, you DO feel that you are here for some grand important reason. At least, that’s what your attitudes and speech clearly communicate.

I’m relatively certain you know what the meaning of “fair game” is to the Mormons. Your use of it does not flatter you. After two pages, it was obvious what was happening and what was going to continue happen…for 15 more pages. Sad.

Oh, and welcome to America. I disagree with your opinions and I don’t feel that that compels me to “surf elsewhere.” Should I give you the same option?

You're kind of stupid aren't you? That's ok, you're the funny kind of stupid the kind that thinks they are not.

[Hamadryad]

I’m relatively certain you know what the meaning of “fair game” is to the Mormons. Your use of it does not flatter you. After two pages, it was obvious what was happening and what was going to continue happen…for 15 more pages. Sad.Are you sure you don't mean the Scientologists?

You know, if mercilessly mocking an aura-reading spirit-seer who insists he or she is a "scientist" is wrong, I'm willing to be the wrongest wronger who ever wronged, and you are more than welcome to feel morally superior to me all you like.

I didn't seek out the stupid, but when the stupid goes into a place MADE for flaming/arguing/mocking and then spreads its arms and says, "HELLO, I AM HERE" ..... well, I'm a Bad Person who shouldn't be allowed out with the Normal People, so I go ahead and mock/point/laugh/eviscerate.

[Rubystreak]

I’m relatively certain you know what the meaning of “fair game” is to the Mormons.

I had no idea that "fair game" had special meaning to Mormons. Care to explain?

My feeling on KGS is that he's enjoying himself in that Pit thread and does not feel that he has been publicly humiliated. There is no way to tell at this point how much of what he's saying he believes and how much he's having all of us on. You give him too little credit IMO.

Also, I wonder if being mentally ill (which he swears he is not) disqualifies a person from also being an ass. I'm not qualified to say if he's mentally ill, though I have my opinion, but I am qualified to say that, whether or not he's crazy, he's definitely an ass. As such, he's going to get as good as he gives in the Pit. He dishes it out, he should be able to take it, and he has, as far as I can tell.

Surely KGS is an adult who is capable of understanding what's happening to him in that thread. You seem to be saying he is not, a proposition with which I'm pretty sure he'd disagree, and which sounds pretty damn patronizing actually. If your position is to be taken seriously, what are you proposing? That we all ignore him? That we humor him? That he be banned? I'm not sure what you want us to do, and also not sure how much KGS would want your help here anyway. Maybe he'll show up and tell us.

[Aswan]

Yes, I meant the Scientologists. Stupid, stupipd mistake made in haste. Mea culpa.

Perhaps a demonstration is in order. Rewind to Ptolemy’s front porch.

KGS: “The Earth is NOT the center of the universe!”

SDBM: “You can’t be serious. Don’t you see the sun rise in the east and set in the west?”

KGS: “That’s only what it looks like from here.”

SDMB: “Can you support that with scientific evidence?”

KGS: “Not yet. I waiting for Copernicus.”

SDMB: “Oh, so you’ve got proof but you can’t show it to us.”

KGS: “But it’s true, I tell you.”

SDMB: “Get the torches and pitchforks, guys. This is gonna be fun.”

[Malthus]

One day maybe you'll learn the meaning of false equivalence. Calling an idiot an idiot is hardly the same thing as shooting him. People want to spout nonsense I see no reason we should treat them with kid gloves. After all it is just words on a computer screen if they don't like it they can surf somewhere else. Same goes for you. We are not here for any grand or important reason we are just wiling away some time, if it offends your sense of decency feel free to move on.

To my mind, a poster who posts crazy or idiotic things is fair game for abuse, particularly of course in the Pit and especially when the 'Pit' someone else - but there comes a point where it is obvious that they actually *are* crazy or idiotic. After that point, it is I think somewhat bad form - it can easily be seen as the Internet version of the schoolyard game of 'taunting the retard'.

[askeptic]

Yes, I meant the Scientologists. Stupid, stupipd mistake made in haste. Mea culpa.

Perhaps a demonstration is in order. Rewind to Ptolemy’s front porch.

KGS: “The Earth is NOT the center of the universe!”

SDBM: “You can’t be serious. Don’t you see the sun rise in the east and set in the west?”

KGS: “That’s only what it looks like from here.”

SDMB: “Can you support that with scientific evidence?”

KGS: “Not yet. I waiting for Copernicus.”

SDMB: “Oh, so you’ve got proof but you can’t show it to us.”

KGS: “But it’s true, I tell you.”

SDMB: “Get the torches and pitchforks, guys. This is gonna be fun.”


There you go with that false equivalence again.

[mswas]

Aswan We have evolved. We've evolved from stoning heretics to berating them on message boards until they give up exasperatedly and stop posting. It is an improvement, but that's about the limit of it. The impulse is still the same, but the impulse control is better.

Townspeople with pitchforks will always be townspeople with pitchforks.

[Hamadryad]

Aswan We have evolved. We've evolved from stoning heretics to berating them on message boards until they give up exasperatedly and stop posting. It is an improvement, but that's about the limit of it. The impulse is still the same, but the impulse control is better.

Townspeople with pitchforks will always be townspeople with pitchforks.PALATR =/= stoning the heretic.

[DanBlather]

Yes, I meant the Scientologists. Stupid, stupipd mistake made in haste. Mea culpa.

Perhaps a demonstration is in order. Rewind to Ptolemy’s front porch.

KGS: “The Earth is NOT the center of the universe!”

SDBM: “You can’t be serious. Don’t you see the sun rise in the east and set in the west?”

KGS: “That’s only what it looks like from here.”

SDMB: “Can you support that with scientific evidence?”

KGS: “Not yet. I waiting for Copernicus.”

SDMB: “Oh, so you’ve got proof but you can’t show it to us.”

KGS: “But it’s true, I tell you.”

SDMB: “Get the torches and pitchforks, guys. This is gonna be fun.”There was much evidence of a heliocentric universe before Copernicus and many cultures knew and accepted it. Oh, and I don't think the Grand Canyon was created by glaciers.

[MrDibble]

The Grand Canyon isn't glacial in origin.

That's really all I have to say to the OP. KGS's own Pit thread speaks for itself, really. Did we really need another one?

[askeptic]

There was much evidence of a heliocentric universe before Copernicus and many cultures knew and accepted it. Oh, and I don't think the Grand Canyon was created by glaciers.


You haven't heard of the Great Colorado River Glacier?

I still don't think the Heliocentric Universe Theory has caught on....:p

[mswas]

PALATR =/= stoning the heretic.

Essentially it's the same impulse just toned down.

That being said, I don't know what PALATR stands for. I assumed it is some acronym meaning, "Abuse the heathen until he submits."

[Rubystreak]

Wow, is the OP comparing KGS to Galileo now? I just don't know what to say. Must be that Nathaniel got to him.

[runner pat]

Essentially it's the same impulse just toned down.

That being said, I don't know what PALATR stands for. I assumed it is some acronym meaning, "Abuse the heathen until he submits."

"Point And Laugh At The Retard"

[Aswan]

I voted for Reagan. You, sir, are no Reagan.

Apparently this is no place for imaginative speech either. If I refer to "sundown," must I also explicitly add that I realize that it is not the sun going down so much as it is the Earth revolving? Sheesh.

For a group that nominally claims to be unbiased and detached, the SDMB is remarkably not so.

Perhaps another example.

(The scene: a busy street corner. A shabbily dressed man with an ill kempt beard waves his hands and wails to passersby. “The world is coming to an end. Repent! Repent!”)

You:

A) Walk by peaceably.

B) Gather a group of your friends together and hound him mercilessly. “What is your proof?” “You’re crazy!” “Imbecile, shut up!”

If you invite someone from another culture to your home for dinner and they begin to eat with their hands, do you berate them? Or do you tap the fork and knife together and show them how you use them with a friendly smile?

All I’m saying is, if you smell blood in the water and chase it, what does that make you?

And Galileo is not a bad comparison, considering the not-so-happy ending.

[Half Man Half Wit]

You don't laugh at someone who can't sing; lots of people can't sing, really, nobody cares all that much. But if someone who can't sing decides themselves to be the greatest singer in the world, despite being told otherwise, then yeah, at some point his American Idol audition is going to dissolve in hopeless laughter.
It's not the inability to sing that makes it funny; it's the grandiose overestimation of one's own abilities and the self-aggrandizement that does.

[Darkhold]

If you made fun of homosexuals, transsexuals or any other 'protected class' that the liberal PC elite has decided is verboten you would get piled on by the exact some people for your intolerance. It's funny, it's hypocritical and it's sad.

If I made fun of Der Trihs for having asperger's and being completely and totally socially inept, as he clearly is, that would get me a pile on. But of course it's ok because KGS personality quirks manifest themselves in the way that makes it ok to be totally nasty and mean on this message board.

When people here speak of tolerance, it's a complete and total sham. Tolerance is for things you have a problem with. There is no tolerance here. People who have no problem with homosexuality are not being tolerant of homosexuals. They don't need to be tolerant because they have no problem with it.

Let this Pit thread proceed apace and watch as all the equivocations as to why people don't need to be tolerant to 'certain people' come about.

I could list off which ones will jump on my directly for making this post, but I don't want to list them off in the off chance they'll surprise me and not respond to their Pavlovian triggers.:rolleyes: Yeah god knows nobody has ever piled on Der Trihs for his bullshit.

I've also never understood the notion that tolerance has to be all encompassing in order not to be hypocritical. If I knew someone who occasionally made a semi racist comment I'd probably let it slide. If he did so regularly or made openly racists jokes I'll tell him to shut up about that around me. If he kept it up I'd probably stop being his friend. If he talked about kicking the shit out of a black person because he was black I'd call the cops. At what point did I become a hypocrite? Because I have a brain in my head I can tell the difference between tolerating a behavior I don't fully understand but has no real negative effect on myself or society (homosexuality for instance) but can choose not to tolerate a behavior I don't understand but is a hate filled stance that chooses to treat humans as lesser because of some minor difference in who they are or how they behave.

If you can explain to me how that makes it hypocritical please elaborate.

[monstro]

I agree with the major thrust of the OP, but I do wonder about something. I'd hate if claiming a mental illness (or development disability) was enough to give someone carte blanche around here. What if KGS had posted blatantly offensive beliefs? Like saying all white people were going to hell or that all Jews have horns and forked tongues? Would we be permitted to ridicule him in that case, or would kid gloves still be called for? Why should it matter? Mental illness can make a person say all kinds of wacky things.

I also don't like having different standards for different people. KGS's posts, while out in left field, aren't that much crazier that what other posters have said in the past. I'm thinking specifically of trolls. Yet no one ever begged for special treatment on their behalf. It just seems unfair to ask the more pugnacious Dopers to give special treatment to some posters but not others. And personally, I'd hate for someone to not engage me intellectually because they think I'm "tetched" in the head. What if I hold an opinion that, while unorthodox, is NOT the result of mental misfirings and yet no one bothers to take it seriously? That strikes me as condescending.

[Rubystreak]

And Galileo is not a bad comparison, considering the not-so-happy ending.

Except that Galileo was not crazy, he was right, and KGS is wrong and full of shit.

[jsgoddess]

Aswan, you are welcome to enter that thread and show the "person from another culture" how to eat with utensils. I'd be interested how long the smile stays on your face.

[TVeblen]

Just that the song be separated from the singer.

I just fwowed up.

I would have thought that particular puddle of sanctimony was just plain too shallow for wallowing but you managed, Awan. But perhaps you own magic Internet Diagnostic Glasses that gift you with ability to accurately diagnose total strangers' medical conditions by peering into the pixels they leave behind on computer screens.

Lacking your piercing mystical insight, the rest of us pretty much have to take posters at their word(s). So if a poster writes flagrant crap he/she could be crazy, drunk, trolling, intellectually naive or just stupid as a box of rocks. See, we just don't know.

It's a burden we live with.

[askeptic]

I voted for Reagan. You, sir, are no Reagan.That figures.

Apparently this is no place for imaginative speech either. If I refer to "sundown," must I also explicitly add that I realize that it is not the sun going down so much as it is the Earth revolving? Sheesh. No but if you say that KGS is like some scientist you are full of shit.

For a group that nominally claims to be unbiased and detached, the SDMB is remarkably not so.

I don't think most people around here claim that. We are most assuredly biased against people talking out of their asses.



Perhaps another example.

(The scene: a busy street corner. A shabbily dressed man with an ill kempt beard waves his hands and wails to passersby. “The world is coming to an end. Repent! Repent!”)

You:

A) Walk by peaceably.

B) Gather a group of your friends together and hound him mercilessly. “What is your proof?” “You’re crazy!” “Imbecile, shut up!”

If you invite someone from another culture to your home for dinner and they begin to eat with their hands, do you berate them? Or do you tap the fork and knife together and show them how you use them with a friendly smile?

All I’m saying is, if you smell blood in the water and chase it, what does that make you?

And Galileo is not a bad comparison, considering the not-so-happy ending.

Man, if there is somebody worse than you at analogy I haven't seen them in a long time.

[mswas]

"Point And Laugh At The Retard"

Ahh right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybmo58bTRj0

Hhahahaa hilarious.

[mswas]

You don't laugh at someone who can't sing; lots of people can't sing, really, nobody cares all that much. But if someone who can't sing decides themselves to be the greatest singer in the world, despite being told otherwise, then yeah, at some point his American Idol audition is going to dissolve in hopeless laughter.
It's not the inability to sing that makes it funny; it's the grandiose overestimation of one's own abilities and the self-aggrandizement that does.

Yes, because posting in Great Debates is like auditioning for American Idol :D:rolleyes::smack:

[Half Man Half Wit]

But perhaps you own magic Internet Diagnostic Glasses that gift you with ability to accurately diagnose total strangers' medical conditions by peering into the pixels they leave behind on computer screens.
Probably just read KGS' aura.

[Fantome]

Perhaps another example.

(The scene: a busy street corner. A shabbily dressed man with an ill kempt beard waves his hands and wails to passersby. “The world is coming to an end. Repent! Repent!”)

You:

A) Walk by peaceably.

B) Gather a group of your friends together and hound him mercilessly. “What is your proof?” “You’re crazy!” “Imbecile, shut up!”
Comparing the SDMB where nitpicking words and ideas is the norm to behavior on a street corner? Really?

[mswas]

:rolleyes: Yeah god knows nobody has ever piled on Der Trihs for his bullshit.

I've also never understood the notion that tolerance has to be all encompassing in order not to be hypocritical. If I knew someone who occasionally made a semi racist comment I'd probably let it slide. If he did so regularly or made openly racists jokes I'll tell him to shut up about that around me. If he kept it up I'd probably stop being his friend. If he talked about kicking the shit out of a black person because he was black I'd call the cops. At what point did I become a hypocrite? Because I have a brain in my head I can tell the difference between tolerating a behavior I don't fully understand but has no real negative effect on myself or society (homosexuality for instance) but can choose not to tolerate a behavior I don't understand but is a hate filled stance that chooses to treat humans as lesser because of some minor difference in who they are or how they behave.

If you can explain to me how that makes it hypocritical please elaborate.

If someone's being wrong leads to them hanging black people, you ridicule it because it needs to be ridiculed. If someone's being wrong leads to them taking photos with a Kyrlian camera, you respectfully disagree and remain cordial.

If you can't see the difference perhaps it is you who is retarded.

[Half Man Half Wit]

Yes, because posting in Great Debates is like auditioning for American Idol :D:rolleyes::smack:
Yes, because the American Idol thing was the vital part of my post :D:rolleyes::smack:

It's a common misconception, but high horses don't help you any in navigating the obstacle course of cogent argumentation.

[Aswan]

As these things sometimes do, the conversation has devolved from the original observation into theatrical asides and minor equivocations. Was the Grand Canyon created by a glacier? Don’t look at this hand, look at this one. See? Here’s the penny.

My point, and it must be my fault for not having communicated it more clearly, is merely this: there is a time and a place for holding people accountable for their statements. However, when it becomes apparent that the speaker is not accountable—for whatever reason—it is unseemly, in fact disrespectful of human dignity, to continue to taunt and humiliate him. Only those of us with the basest of instincts will poke the caged animal with a stick for our amusement. If that’s you, then you have my condolences.

You may do it lying to yourself that you’re “fighting ignorance,” but deep down, we all know better.

Oh, and Rubystreak, you speak with the authority of several centuries of support. I wonder how enthusiastic you’d have been to drink the hemlock yourself back then. Crazy was nothing compared to heretic.

And I don’t “own magic Internet Diagnostic Glasses that gift (sic) you with ability to accurately diagnose total strangers' medical conditions by peering into the pixels they leave behind on computer screens.”

Nah. Never claimed to. Just a sense of moral decency and the ability to invoke it.

[tomndebb]

And Galileo is not a bad comparison, considering the not-so-happy ending.Do you really think that we are going to set up KGS in his own private palace with his own servants for his retirement?

[SmartAleq]

For a group that nominally claims to be unbiased and detached, the SDMB is remarkably not so.

Cite that anyone has ever said this? Check the banner at the top of the page, it says, "Fighting ignorance since 1973." Hard to fight ignorance when you stand there and allow it to be flaunted with indulgent smiles all around.


Perhaps another example.

(The scene: a busy street corner. A shabbily dressed man with an ill kempt beard waves his hands and wails to passersby. “The world is coming to an end. Repent! Repent!”)

You:

A) Walk by peaceably.

B) Gather a group of your friends together and hound him mercilessly. “What is your proof?” “You’re crazy!” “Imbecile, shut up!”

Looks like somebody's never spent any time in Hyde Park at Speaker's Corner. Yes, that is EXACTLY what goes on there, and I'd say the Dope is a close Internet analogue to Speaker's Corner.


If you invite someone from another culture to your home for dinner and they begin to eat with their hands, do you berate them? Or do you tap the fork and knife together and show them how you use them with a friendly smile?

Do you still keep smiling and tapping when your obstreperous guest gets up on the table, pulls out his dick and pisses in your food? My, such a saint you must be, I bet your mother is just loving her halo.


All I’m saying is, if you smell blood in the water and chase it, what does that make you?

Smart.


And Galileo is not a bad comparison, considering the not-so-happy ending.

Nope, on account of Galileo was right, and had science on his side. I have to agree, you really suck at analogies. Don't quit your day job.

[jsgoddess]

My point, and it must be my fault for not having communicated it more clearly, is merely this: there is a time and a place for holding people accountable for their statements. However, when it becomes apparent that the speaker is not accountable—for whatever reason—it is unseemly, in fact disrespectful of human dignity, to continue to taunt and humiliate him.

So, what precisely makes him not accountable? I think he'd be offended at the suggestion, though you're welcome to make it.

Indeed, as I already said, you're welcome to take part in that thread, steering it in whichever way you think it needs steering. You're welcome to, in short, take responsibility for your ideas and put them right into motion. No one is stopping you.

[Chimera]

For a group that nominally claims to be unbiased and detached, the SDMB is remarkably not so.

I'm not so sure that this group or this board has ever claimed to be unbiased and detached.

That being said, I have a serious issue with people who tell others to keep an open mind when what they're really saying is: "Believe everything I say without questioning any of it."

Engaging one's skeptical mind and questioning what one is being told is not necessarily "biased" any more than failing to do so is unbiased. Failing to question what you're being told is simply "incredibly stupid".

So when you come at me with an idea that I find unlikely, counter-indicated or just plain silly; it doesn't help your case to attack me for being biased or intolerant. That only works with weak willed patsies who want to be friends with everyone and have no mind of their own for fear of being wrong or of offending someone with their own beliefs.

[askeptic]

Nah. Never claimed to. Just a sense of moral decency and the ability to invoke it.

Dude, your sense of self righteousness and holier than thou attitude is pretty amusing. It's like watching a guy throwing stones from a glass house. You really need to get over yourself. And if I was KGS I would tell you to go fuck yourself for being a condescending ass. You are more dismissive and giving him less respect than the worst flamer in that thread.

[Hamadryad]

You may do it lying to yourself that you’re “fighting ignorance,” but deep down, we all know better.No, I'm doing it because KGS is a stupid, addle-pated nincompoop who insists beyond all reason that the plural of "anecdote" is "data," and that scientists are "out of touch" for using the correct terminology for their research.

Since the whole giant pile of shit is in the Pit, I haven't felt any need whatsoever to be calm or considered in my criticism of the aforementioned buffoon. Fuck you right in your stupid neck for comparing this putrid stoma to Galileo.

[Autolycus]

The religion discussion between Voyager and myself was pretty good, even if it was hardly anything new for these boards. Now I feel bad for losing interest and letting the spotlight go back onto KSG.

[mswas]

Yes, because the American Idol thing was the vital part of my post :D:rolleyes::smack:

It's a common misconception, but high horses don't help you any in navigating the obstacle course of cogent argumentation.

You're the one who made the stupid analogy.

Well chosen nickname, kudos.

[mswas]

No, I'm doing it because KGS is a stupid, addle-pated nincompoop who insists beyond all reason that the plural of "anecdote" is "data," and that scientists are "out of touch" for using the correct terminology for their research.

Since the whole giant pile of shit is in the Pit, I haven't felt any need whatsoever to be calm or considered in my criticism of the aforementioned buffoon. Fuck you right in your stupid neck for comparing this putrid stoma to Galileo.


Why does simply being wrong offend you so deeply?

[Hamadryad]

Why does simply being wrong offend you so deeply?It doesn't offend me that deeply. Well, misrepresenting the entire discipline of science IS pretty goddamned offensive - but really, I'm just in love with the sound of my own voice.

[Darkhold]

If someone's being wrong leads to them hanging black people, you ridicule it because it needs to be ridiculed. If someone's being wrong leads to them taking photos with a Kyrlian camera, you respectfully disagree and remain cordial.

If you can't see the difference perhaps it is you who is retarded.Whoa where's this hostility come from? I asked a specific question about where not tolerating behaviors became hypocritical. From the content of your post (mentioning liberal PC elite and homosexuality) it went far wider then anything KGS had touched on in that thread so I was asking you to clarify. Clearly you're dealing with enough issues of your own and I'll leave you to it.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Like saying all white people were going to hell

You mean, they're not?

The rest of your post, I agree with. I don't like the idea of special treatment in special cases unless they ask for it.

Reminds me of a story I like to tell. I used to run a daycare center out of my home with my best friend Xina. We used to have races and games and stuff with the kids all of the time. I used to always let the kiddies win and say, "Aww, you beat me again, little Keisha!"

But not Xina. Oh, no. When Xina heard "GO" in the phrase "Ready...set...GO!", she took off like a shot! She pumped her stallion like legs with all of her might and she crushed those kids! Left them choking on her kicked up dust! Used to crack me up every time. She also did this in checkers, coloring, whatever! If the kids asked her to play, she put in her 100%.

One day, one of the kids said to her, "Could you play checkers with me, but take it easy on me! I'm just a kid." And Xina said, "Ok", and she let the kid win that time.

A rambling pointless story maybe, but I think my point is, if a person thinks they can stomp with the big dogs, they gotta be ready to stomp.

[askeptic]

Clearly you're dealing with enough issues of your own and I'll leave you to it.

That's why many people don't respond to his BS.

[Half Man Half Wit]

*on second thought, it's not worth it*

[Aswan]

Just to be clear.

At no point did I endorse the science or conclusions of KGS.

At no point did I suggest that the logical arguments brought against his views were less than cogent and accurate.

I made it clear that I thought his OP in the Pit was a mistake.

That said, I do think that his subsequent taunting and humiliation for 15 pages was nothing short of degrading and a poor reflection of the SDMD. Let us suppose that he imagined his wit was rapier sharp and that he was tilting at windmills and winning. We all could see the obvious truth, and it was saddening. Prolonging it for someone’s amusement was an abuse. If that makes me sound superior, well, I can live with that.

But I have to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

[jsgoddess]

That said, I do think that his subsequent taunting and humiliation for 15 pages was nothing short of degrading and a poor reflection of the SDMD. Let us suppose that he imagined his wit was rapier sharp and that he was tilting at windmills and winning. We all could see the obvious truth, and it was saddening. Prolonging it for someone’s amusement was an abuse. If that makes me sound superior, well, I can live with that.

I think it's a hell of a lot more vicious starting a thread where you're telling the board how pathetic he is than engaging him as a presumed equal in the thread would ever be.

[Rubystreak]

Oh, and Rubystreak, you speak with the authority of several centuries of support. I wonder how enthusiastic you’d have been to drink the hemlock yourself back then. Crazy was nothing compared to heretic.

At the risk of belaboring a very obvious point (though you seem to be missing it), Galileo had gathered concrete data that he could show people who were interested. His evidence was based on not only personal observation but also mathematics and physics, and could be reproduced by others. He was not making extraordinary claims without offering any proof at all. Many people have offered to look at KGS' evidence, but he has none to offer. That is only the most empirical difference between him and Galileo.

[mswas]

Whoa where's this hostility come from? I asked a specific question about where not tolerating behaviors became hypocritical. From the content of your post (mentioning liberal PC elite and homosexuality) it went far wider then anything KGS had touched on in that thread so I was asking you to clarify. Clearly you're dealing with enough issues of your own and I'll leave you to it.

I'll admit I got carried away with the gestalt of the moment. ;)

The point it becomes hypocritical is when you try to conflate simply being wrong with some sort of social ill.

[ToeJam]

I made it clear that I thought his OP in the Pit was a mistake.


This is perhaps the biggest point.
If he had made his ideas known in GD or MPSIMS or IMHO, it would be a civil, though strained and still argumentative discourse.
But this is the Pit.

This is the one forum area where people feel a great expectation that they should live up to the Pit Moniker of being flaming arseholes and all. The Pit is the one place that I do not judge the rest of the boards by, because it's an entirely different attitude here. If KGS had made a post ANYWHERE else, I doubt we'd see the vitriol we are seeing here (though he probably would have eventually been pitted and we'd be back here again).
So to say that people aren't acting proper and it's cruel and unfair and demeaning and what not- I'd agree with you... IF IT WERE POSTED ANYWHERE ELSE.

In the Pit? I'm sorry, the pit is the worst of what we Dopers have to offer, and to try to judge Dopers simply by the Pit is to paint broad stroke. I will give them credit- when KGS said to please stop talking about his mental health issues, most of the Dopers obliged and have resorted to insulting him in other ways. That's a modicum of respect, it's not much, but it's SOMETHING. But I think you're pointing out something that everyone else knows.

[mswas]

That's why many people don't respond to his BS.

Fortunately for me the bulk of them are people I don't want to hear from.

[Aswan]

Rubystreak, it is an obvious point and you are belaboring it—it was never the point to begin with. I never suggested a scientific parallel between Galileo and KGS. In fact, I never defended his “science.” I merely alluded to the “not-so-happy ending” which KGS seems to have suffered in this virtual reality. (Just by the way, no one wanted to see Galileo’s work for fear of suffering his fate as well. The Pope was not someone to trifle with.)

And it is faint praise to suggest that the SDMB should be commended when it stopped insulting KGS for his mental illness by finding other ways to insult him.

It does irritate me that I am somehow painted as suggesting that the SDMB give people free passes for disabilities (either real or imagined) or condone or enable people with crazy ideas. I dislike that as much as any other sane person. But I don’t taunt and humiliate and belittle them in public. Their problems are bad enough as it is. If that’s how you make yourself feel better when you fall asleep at night, please continue with my condolences.

I’m not superior to you, but perhaps a tad more forgiving. It’s actually a weakness. I wish I had your steely resolve.

[Idle Thoughts]

Why do I get the sense that the OP is either:

1. A troll
2. A sock puppet
3. Someone here only to stir up shit or
4. Possibly all of the above three


I mean really, who makes their first topic/post in the Pit? While I've known some to do that before, I don't recall them ever either staying very long or lasting very long.

What's your beef here? Why do you care? I don't get it. Is this something that would effect your willingness to pay for charter membership or is this just something you wanted to get off your chest that you noticed?

In any event, why not branch out a bit? I understand you say you've been lurking for awhile but there's other forums and great places on here then just the Pit....Besides, I think it's frowned upon (or so it used to be) to have all (or the majority) of your posts be in the Pit, especially if you're a new person ("new" person?), although IANAM (OJM :) )

[Rubystreak]

Rubystreak, it is an obvious point and you are belaboring it—it was never the point to begin with. I never suggested a scientific parallel between Galileo and KGS. In fact, I never defended his “science.” I merely alluded to the “not-so-happy ending” which KGS seems to have suffered in this virtual reality. (Just by the way, no one wanted to see Galileo’s work for fear of suffering his fate as well. The Pope was not someone to trifle with.)

You did compare him with Galileo and it was a stupid comparison. KGS is spouting nonsense and he attacked people who disagreed with him. Galileo did no such thing but suffered a much worse fate that KGS ever did or would. And by the way, you're not teaching me anything about Galileo. I know what happened to him and why. There is no parallel to be made here. KGS is not a hero or a victim. Give it a rest.

It does irritate me that I am somehow painted as suggesting that the SDMB give people free passes for disabilities (either real or imagined) or condone or enable people with crazy ideas. I dislike that as much as any other sane person. But I don’t taunt and humiliate and belittle them in public. Their problems are bad enough as it is. If that’s how you make yourself feel better when you fall asleep at night, please continue with my condolences.

He is not being taunted or humiliated any more than anyone whose Pit thread backfires on them ever is in the Pit. He also has done his own share of taunting and ridiculing people. He's a big boy and can take care of himself. What would you have people do? Do you want special treatment for him because you think he's mentally ill, overriding his own stated wishes? Please, be prescriptive, because unlike KGS, we aren't mind readers and when we try to infer your intention, you get irritated.

[Heffalump and Roo]

I mean really, who makes their first topic/post in the Pit? While I've known some to do that before, I don't recall them ever either staying very long or lasting very long.
Oooh. . . thanks. I didn't notice that. Good point.

But I'll post what I was going to say anyway. I think that KGS is having a good time and is having a little fun with y'alls. I looked back randomly at a few of his previous posts and they were cogent, coherent and one was hilarious.
Here's one (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10326608&postcount=34) that had me laughing and here's another (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10325859&postcount=17) that seems pretty coherent.
And to some of the posters who say that KGS is the stupidest poster on the internet, they must not see much of the internet.

[KGS]

No, I'm doing it because KGS is a stupid, addle-pated nincompoop who insists beyond all reason that the plural of "anecdote" is "data," and that scientists are "out of touch" for using the correct terminology for their research. Ignoring anecdotal data is stupid, especially when the vast amount of this type of data is overwhelming. And to insist your particular terminology is "correct" is equally stupid, inherently biased, and only serves to deepen the abyssal gulf of ignorance separating the lay person from the so-called "scientist." Mark my words -- if you could convince scientist to exchange the word "theory" for something else, such as "process" or "design", it would go a long way towards convincing lay people of the truth behind scientific method. It would certainly deflate the ammunition of anti-evolutionists who twist the meaning of that word!

You did compare him with Galileo and it was a stupid comparison. KGS is spouting nonsense and he attacked people who disagreed with him. Galileo did no such thing but suffered a much worse fate that KGS ever did or would. Galileo was a pussy. :cool:

I don't know where all this "humiliation" nonsense comes from, except as acknowledgement of certain people's true (yet failed) intentions. Right now, I'm just standing aside in awe of my creation -- a 14 page (!) Pit Thread, plus a sequel semi-Pit Thread, all triggered solely because I wanted to call somebody an asshole. Ain't it curious how the tiniest, simplest interactions can have such dramatic results...and the vampire novel I'm writing is coming along quite nicely, too. ;)

[Measure for Measure]

If someone's being wrong leads to them hanging black people, you ridicule it because it needs to be ridiculed. If someone's being wrong leads to them taking photos with a Kyrlian camera, you respectfully disagree and remain cordial.

If you can't see the difference perhaps it is you who is retarded. Oh, I can see the difference. But I would suggest that once the nooses are pulled out, the time for ridicule is long past.

Perhaps you need to rework your analogy.
---

mswas: Ridicule is a useful rhetorical tool and I for one would need additional persuasion before setting it aside. (For example, I ridicule Der Trhis' ideas and presentation somewhat often.) But I have to agree with you that the practice appeals to less attractive side of human nature.

One possible filter: never ridicule before other methods have been tried first. This isn't part of my code of conduct: I'm just stating a possibility.

More restrictive: first try to teach the listener proper methods of using utensils. Unfortunately, most will resist such instruction.
---

The OP: pretty odd. If he was linking to a GD thread it would be one thing. But Aswan objected to the treatment of KGS, in a Pit-thread that KGS started to attack Der Trihs. Jeez. All the same, I see from the post above that KGS seems to have taken everything in stride which is reassuring.

[mswas]

It doesn't offend me that deeply. Well, misrepresenting the entire discipline of science IS pretty goddamned offensive - but really, I'm just in love with the sound of my own voice.

LOL aren't we all.

I dunno that someone CAN misrepresent science. Either they are right or they're not, no?

[supergoose]

I agree with the major thrust of the OP, but I do wonder about something. I'd hate if claiming a mental illness (or development disability) was enough to give someone carte blanche around here. What if KGS had posted blatantly offensive beliefs? Like saying all white people were going to hell or that all Jews have horns and forked tongues? Would we be permitted to ridicule him in that case, or would kid gloves still be called for? Why should it matter? Mental illness can make a person say all kinds of wacky things.

I also don't like having different standards for different people. KGS's posts, while out in left field, aren't that much crazier that what other posters have said in the past. I'm thinking specifically of trolls. Yet no one ever begged for special treatment on their behalf. It just seems unfair to ask the more pugnacious Dopers to give special treatment to some posters but not others. And personally, I'd hate for someone to not engage me intellectually because they think I'm "tetched" in the head. What if I hold an opinion that, while unorthodox, is NOT the result of mental misfirings and yet no one bothers to take it seriously? That strikes me as condescending.

Uh, guys? Can we (and by "we" I mean "you") argue this for a while, please? Monstro brings up very good points that I think get to the heart of the issue, and I'd really like to hear a debate about them. Sadly, I'm not smart/experienced/thought-out/informed/some-combination-thereof enough to jump in myself, but plenty of you are. Pretty please?

As a sidenote, don't you just love it (and by "love it" I mean "find it :smack:-ingly frustrating") when really intelligent, thoughtful posts seem to just get lost in the fray? Or am I just in the wrong forum for this?

[ToeJam]

As a sidenote, don't you just love it (and by "love it" I mean "find it :smack:-ingly frustrating") when really intelligent, thoughtful posts seem to just get lost in the fray? Or am I just in the wrong forum for this?

This.

Sometimes its better just to start a new topic elsewhere and link to the pit thread's post that shone out to you. Which you might want to considering doing if you really want to continue the debate, civilly at least.

[Zoe]

From Rubystreak:

KGS is not a hero or a victim. Give it a rest.

He's a big boy and can take care of himself.

I seem to remember that you suggested that he might want to seek outside help.

Sometimes you are so lacking in basic psychological skills and insight that I wonder how you ever ended up in a classroom.

Monstro, your comments do need to be addressed. People are equal in someways and unequal in others. They should be equal in the eyes of the law and have equal rights and privileges. For example they should have equal access to the best education available to them. But that doesn't mean that they should have the same education. Children learn in different ways and each child should be taught beginning at the level where she or he is and in the way that (s)he learns best.

Some people who are mentally ill will need to be treated differently at differently times in their lives. It would be cruel not to recognize that that person's brain is functioning under a diminished capacity for which he is not to blame. We don't treat Alzheimers patients the same as we always have. It isn't condescending to expect someone in chemotherapy for cancer not to have much energy. Even when a friend has a bad day, we cut them some slack.

Is it condescending to be kind or to give someone the benefit of the doubt?

People can't will themselves out of mental illness. If they "can," then it wasn't a mental illness to begin with. Meanwhile, there are things that some can do to make life more bearable.

[mswas]

One law for the lion and the ox is oppression. - William Blake (some idiot who believed in spirits probably auras too.)

[Rubystreak]

I seem to remember that you suggested that he might want to seek outside help.

Sometimes you are so lacking in basic psychological skills and insight that I wonder how you ever ended up in a classroom.

I take the man at his word. He says he's not mentally ill, then it doesn't matter what I think. It is indeed my lack of psychological skills to diagnose someone over the internet that cause me to take him at his word. Do you think you know better than he does? He IS a grown man and he CAN handle some ribbing on a message board.

And making cracks about how I do my job because we disagree on a message board is a cheap shot and just proves what a mean-spirited bitch you are. I do so wish you could just put me on your IGNORE list rather than making comments like this, which show you for what you are.

[Baldwin]

Galileo was a pussy.Galileo continued advancing science even after he was mostly blind. (Can you explain Lunar libration to me, you New Age genius? Incidentally, this "New Age" stuff was ancient bullshit in Galileo's time.)

And he had a Venetian mistress named Maria Gamba, which by itself makes him cooler than you'll ever be.

You, as far as I can tell, are just dumping your own little load on an already huge pile of useless shit. Punk. (That's not an ad hominem attack in lieu of argument; it's just an insult, intended to be taken personally. Because I don't like you.)

[KGS]

Galileo continued advancing science even after he was mostly blind. (Can you explain Lunar libration to me, you New Age genius? Incidentally, this "New Age" stuff was ancient bullshit in Galileo's time.)

And he had a Venetian mistress named Maria Gamba, which by itself makes him cooler than you'll ever be. Really? I thought he was gay.

[Jackmannii]

The OP is a concern troll.

If concern for KGS's welfare was the major issue, it is counterproductive to stir up a dead "debate", attract KGS into posting again and draw the ire of other posters once more.

[CircleofWillis]

Why do I get the sense that the OP is either:

1. A troll
2. A sock puppet
3. Someone here only to stir up shit or
4. Possibly all of the above three



Why does it always come down to this? WHy is virtually every poster who is NOT a long-time, already dismissed user that posts something not popular immediately labeled a troll or a sock?

In his (or her) own half-assed way, the OP is right. If a topic is an SDMB "sacred cow", no matter how obviously wrong or obviously right the post is, it is inceredibly easy to predict how the posting user will be recieved based on which side of the fence the post falls.

If the post falls on the SDMB-positive side (GLBT tolerant, atheistic, pro-Dem/liberal, pro-Princess Bride, etc. etc.), users here will fall all over themselves to equivocate the posting and spin it to a coherent and logical thoght process. If however it is a post NOT generally accepted, the poster is abused, excoriated and pilloried with such a vengeful and personal force that it is sometimes scary for the well-being of the ATTACKER in terms of their mental well-being.

There are many many people who have to get over themselves in this place. The talk of tolerance and respect for opinions and lifestyles of others is NOT just for your side. We have thread after thread talking of bigotry and intolerance while that same intolerance continues post after post, just for the things with which the majority (or perhaps vocal minority) here opposes.

[Hamadryad]

The talk of tolerance and respect for opinions and lifestyles of others is NOT just for your side. We have thread after thread talking of bigotry and intolerance while that same intolerance continues post after post, just for the things with which the majority (or perhaps vocal minority) here opposes.I oppose navel-gazing crap-peddlers calling themselves "scientists." I oppose new-age bullshit being treated as seriously as molecular theory. A person persists in doing these things which I oppose - loudly and publicly - in a place designed for being obnoxious and loud, publicly. I respond by being obnoxious and loud publicly back.

If these things I oppose are themselves not worthy of opposition, please explain why. If there is another forum in which I should have expressed my loud, obnoxious opposition to this fruitbat, please point me in its direction.

This isn't taking up a lot of my time or energy or anger; I enjoy getting my hate on occasionally, love the sound of my own voice (as I have previously noted), and really, really enjoy swearing. It's a shame how heinously unevolved I am.

But I still think KGS is worse.

[Bryan Ekers]

Really? I thought he was gay.

Well, we can't prove he didn't engage in homosexual activity, but there are clear indications of heterosexual activity - to wit, his three children.

[CircleofWillis]

I oppose navel-gazing crap-peddlers calling themselves "scientists." I oppose new-age bullshit being treated as seriously as molecular theory. A person persists in doing these things which I oppose - loudly and publicly - in a place designed for being obnoxious and loud, publicly. I respond by being obnoxious and loud publicly back.

If these things I oppose are themselves not worthy of opposition, please explain why. If there is another forum in which I should have expressed my loud, obnoxious opposition to this fruitbat, please point me in its direction.

This isn't taking up a lot of my time or energy or anger; I enjoy getting my hate on occasionally, love the sound of my own voice (as I have previously noted), and really, really enjoy swearing. It's a shame how heinously unevolved I am.

But I still think KGS is worse.

Well at least you're honest with yourself. My problem is not necessarily with the "opposition to this fruitbat", but with the vitriol for someone who's views "isn't taking up a lot of my time or energy or anger".

The crowds here get stirred up into a frenzy with the sight of a "heretic". It's both amusiing and concerning to see the self-righteousness of some of these self-professed evolved, critically thinking,absurdly intelligent posters devolve into a braying jack-ass within a post or two.

[Idle Thoughts]

Why does it always come down to this? WHy is virtually every poster who is NOT a long-time, already dismissed user that posts something not popular immediately labeled a troll or a sock?

In his (or her) own half-assed way, the OP is right. If a topic is an SDMB "sacred cow", no matter how obviously wrong or obviously right the post is, it is inceredibly easy to predict how the posting user will be recieved based on which side of the fence the post falls.

If the post falls on the SDMB-positive side (GLBT tolerant, atheistic, pro-Dem/liberal, pro-Princess Bride, etc. etc.), users here will fall all over themselves to equivocate the posting and spin it to a coherent and logical thoght process. If however it is a post NOT generally accepted, the poster is abused, excoriated and pilloried with such a vengeful and personal force that it is sometimes scary for the well-being of the ATTACKER in terms of their mental well-being.

There are many many people who have to get over themselves in this place. The talk of tolerance and respect for opinions and lifestyles of others is NOT just for your side. We have thread after thread talking of bigotry and intolerance while that same intolerance continues post after post, just for the things with which the majority (or perhaps vocal minority) here opposes.

I don't think he/she/it is any of those things because of being new or holding an unpopular opinion. As I said in the rest of my post, he/she/it gives that vibe off (at least to me, YMMV) somewhat because of posting their first post in the Pit and (so far) ONLY posting in the pit and creating another topic out of a matter that could have just been added to the already existing topic.

To me, this topic isn't any different than the usual "This board is too strict, why should I pay?" or "Man, this board sucks, give me one reason why I should stay." topics. My way of thinking is, if you're really going to judge the whole board on one or two topics, then maybe the place isn't for you after all.

[jsgoddess]

Sometimes you are so lacking in basic psychological skills and insight that I wonder how you ever ended up in a classroom.

And the winner for unintentional irony goes to Zoe!

[CircleofWillis]

I don't think he/she/it is any of those things because of being new or holding an unpopular opinion. As I said in the rest of my post, he/she/it gives that vibe off (at least to me, YMMV) somewhat because of posting their first post in the Pit and (so far) ONLY posting in the pit and creating another topic out of a matter that could have just been added to the already existing topic.

To me, this topic isn't any different than the usual "This board is too strict, why should I pay?" or "Man, this board sucks, give me one reason why I should stay." topics. My way of thinking is, if you're really going to judge the whole board on one or two topics, then maybe the place isn't for you after all.

But see the thing is its not the judging the whole board on one or two topics, but its the reception one gets when one crosses the groupthink of those one or two topics.

Are we saying if you aren't with us, you're agin us and therefore get to stepping?

[Idle Thoughts]

And to me, that's all well and good if someone thinks or feels that way. That's not the issue for me here.

The issue is the fact that this guy/girl registered yesterday. Yesterday. Been here a little over 24 hours now and they have 10 posts...and all ten posts are in the Pit.


There used to be a rule here that if all of your (or a majority of your) posts were in the pit (and held in comparison for how long you've been registered), that your membership would or might be in jeopardy. And for good reason, I feel.

Now right now it seems to be fine...but what about if the OP has 20 or 50 or 100 posts and they're all just in this topic alone and no other forum or topic? I mean, already it's ten.

Me, I'd think s/he'd want to branch out a bit. :) Explore the finer things that the board does have to offer. So s/he's pitting the groupthink. Cool. That's his/her right. Meanwhile, why not talk about some other things in other topics like CS or GD? The more he/she just posts in here, the more he/she just looks like a one-trick pony.

[Bryan Ekers]

There used to be a rule here that if all of your (or a majority of your) posts were in the pit (and held in comparison for how long you've been registered), that your membership would or might be in jeopardy. And for good reason, I feel.
I thought it was more specifically if the majority of your posts to the board consisted of complaints about the board, but no matter.

[Idle Thoughts]

Hm, you know, you could be right.

[CircleofWillis]

And to me, that's all well and good if someone thinks or feels that way. That's not the issue for me here.

The issue is the fact that this guy/girl registered yesterday. Yesterday. Been here a little over 24 hours now and they have 10 posts...and all ten posts are in the Pit.


There used to be a rule here that if all of your (or a majority of your) posts were in the pit (and held in comparison for how long you've been registered), that your membership would or might be in jeopardy. And for good reason, I feel.

Now right now it seems to be fine...but what about if the OP has 20 or 50 or 100 posts and they're all just in this topic alone and no other forum or topic? I mean, already it's ten.

Me, I'd think s/he'd want to branch out a bit. :) Explore the finer things that the board does have to offer. So s/he's pitting the groupthink. Cool. That's his/her right. Meanwhile, why not talk about some other things in other topics like CS or GD? The more he/she just posts in here, the more he/she just looks like a one-trick pony.

Why? Why does a person have to post in other forums to ameliorate the concerns of other posters? What business is it of yours WHERE a person posts? I don't post in GQ or CCC. Most of my posts, or a goodly percentage thereof, are here in the Pit.

Why? Because that's where my interests lie. That's where the threads that catch my attention are. MPSIMS is a perfect name, mundane and pointless. CS and TGR are light and fluffy, like a Krispy Kreme, fun but not entirely satisfying. GD is a complete oxymoron. It is neither great nor a debate. The other ones that I am missing.. well they don't seem to have much to them.

I have been called a sock and a troll from the beginning though I have stated that I have lurked for a LOOOONG time and thus have some of the backstory on some things. If I were to have started my first post with Bush sucks and fuck the Christians, I would've been prolly more warmly received (not that I give a rat's ass)

But what does it matter to you what forums a person posts to? YOU would like to think he/she would want to branch out, but what is to you if they don't? Doesn't make them a troll or a sock or a one trick pony. Jesus H Christ, how many tricks can a pony have in less than 24 hours and ten posts? This may be his or her gored ox. Maybe this is what got the person to actually sign up and post.

..and as is karmic, this prolly WILL be a one trick troll and thus fuck it up for new posters thereafter.

[Bryan Ekers]

GD is a complete oxymoron. It is neither great nor a debate.

Discuss.

[KGS]

discuss.
+1

[Idle Thoughts]

Why? Why does a person have to post in other forums to ameliorate the concerns of other posters? What business is it of yours WHERE a person posts? I don't post in GQ or CCC. Most of my posts, or a goodly percentage thereof, are here in the Pit.

Why? Because that's where my interests lie. That's where the threads that catch my attention are. MPSIMS is a perfect name, mundane and pointless. CS and TGR are light and fluffy, like a Krispy Kreme, fun but not entirely satisfying. GD is a complete oxymoron. It is neither great nor a debate. The other ones that I am missing.. well they don't seem to have much to them.

I have been called a sock and a troll from the beginning though I have stated that I have lurked for a LOOOONG time and thus have some of the backstory on some things. If I were to have started my first post with Bush sucks and fuck the Christians, I would've been prolly more warmly received (not that I give a rat's ass)

But what does it matter to you what forums a person posts to? YOU would like to think he/she would want to branch out, but what is to you if they don't? Doesn't make them a troll or a sock or a one trick pony. Jesus H Christ, how many tricks can a pony have in less than 24 hours and ten posts? This may be his or her gored ox. Maybe this is what got the person to actually sign up and post.

..and as is karmic, this prolly WILL be a one trick troll and thus fuck it up for new posters thereafter.

You seem to be assuming a lot of things about me. I don't care where anyone posts. I just saw that this guy/girl has only posted in the Pit so far and displayed my own opinion about it: That it looks weird. I then gave my opinion of what I've seen it usually meant. If you don't share that opinion or disagree....more power to you.

[Don't fight the hypothetical]

(The scene: a busy street corner. A shabbily dressed man with an ill kempt beard waves his hands and wails to passersby. “The world is coming to an end. Repent! Repent!”)

You:

A) Walk by peaceably.

B) Gather a group of your friends together and hound him mercilessly. “What is your proof?” “You’re crazy!” “Imbecile, shut up!”

In that case, (B)

But what happened here was:

(The scene: My house. A shabbily dressed man with an ill kempt beard waves his hands and beats on my front door then enters my house yelling “The world is coming to an end. Repent! Repent!” over and over and won't stop regardless of what I say)

Now what to do?

[CircleofWillis]

In that case, (B)

But what happened here was:

(The scene: My house. A shabbily dressed man with an ill kempt beard waves his hands and beats on my front door then enters my house yelling “The world is coming to an end. Repent! Repent!” over and over and won't stop regardless of what I say)

Now what to do?

Surely you are not implying this is your house....

[Cervaise]

This is not my beautiful stapler.


Oh, and KGS is not a poor mentally ill victim being assaulted by a mob. He is a garden-variety dipshit whose curb-kicking is entirely deserved.

[Jackmannii]

WHy is virtually every poster who is NOT a long-time, already dismissed user that posts something not popular immediately labeled a troll or a sock?Cite?We have thread after thread talking of bigotry and intolerance while that same intolerance continues post after post, just for the things with which the majority (or perhaps vocal minority) here opposes.Virtually all here would agree that credulous spouters of woo have the right to their opinions, to live in the community, work in jobs whose output is not adversely affected by their beliefs, marry other credulous spouters of woo and spout woo at their unfortunate offspring.

On the other hand there is no agreed-upon right to spout woo in a public forum aimed at fighting ignorance and be gratified by a respectful reception.

[CircleofWillis]

Cite? Your post is my cite

[KGS]

He is a garden-variety dipshit whose curb-kicking is entirely deserved. I fail to discern what "curb" you are talking about. Unlike you, I don't care about the constant popularity contest going on here. (Coward.)

[Ensign Edison]

Oh, and KGS is not a poor mentally ill victim being assaulted by a mob. He is a garden-variety dipshit whose curb-kicking is entirely deserved.

Has he said he's a he? I would bet female otherwise.

[DocCathode]

As a raving loon myself, I object to the idea that we need special treatment. KGS posted an OP in the Pit and should face the consequences. Speaking for myself, I find the way his mind works fascinating.

[KGS]

Speaking for myself, I find the way his mind works fascinating. Thanks, mad scientist. That's all I ask of anyone. :cool:

[Jackmannii]

I have lurked for a LOOOONG timeYour post is my citeIf you've lurked here long enough to remember Aldebaran (of "my post is my cite" fame), you should know enough not to channel his less attractive tendencies (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5664873&postcount=139).

Do try to keep the wild generalizations and persecution complex under control.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Do try to keep the wild generalizations and persecution complex under control.
Are you saying the Circle of Willis has a leaky berry? :eek:

[Cervaise]

(Coward.)Hey, you remembered! Way to go.

Unfortunately, this is yet another indication that you have a functioning brain, and that all your supposedly-inscrutable spiritual gesticulation is an attention-seeking put-on.

So you'll have to forgive me for not withering in the face of your dull-scissor wit.

Turd.

[MrDibble]

Has he said he's a he? I would bet female otherwise.

If he/she has Asberger's, you're playing something like 3-1 odds.

[Ensign Edison]

If he/she has Asberger's, you're playing something like 3-1 odds.

Those aren't terrible odds. I already know a woman with (real) Aspberger's; I don't feel it would require a strike of lighting. But anyway that's one of the reasons I think female. The speech patterns are much more effervescent, effusive and demonstrative than I usually see in male Aspies. Doesn't mean anything really, a male could easily be that way, I was just surprised to see everyone defaulting to a different assumption. Guys of any kind of neurostatus don't generally call people stuff like "my dear" when angry with them, do they? The tendency to become condescendingly maternal in response to criticism is one I associate with women, I suppose.

[Aswan]

Okay, I give. I’m tapping out. Uncle.

KGS is filled with awe and glee. The music has stopped, I’m standing here, and there is no chair. So I’m out.

I am reminded of an episode of Law and Order in which McCoy prosecutes a case against some teenage boys who have obviously raped a mentally challenged girl. The twist comes at the end (where else?) when during her testimony she angrily denies being raped, asserting that she wanted to feel love like everyone else. Case closed.

I didn’t see that coming. I didn’t see this coming either…

My apologies.

[KGS]

Hey, you remembered! Way to go.

Unfortunately, this is yet another indication that you have a functioning brain, and that all your supposedly-inscrutable spiritual gesticulation is an attention-seeking put-on.

So you'll have to forgive me for not withering in the face of your dull-scissor wit. Sorry you feel that way. If I'm really not that important to you, why do you keep responding? Or is Hamadryad's wife pissing in your coffee, without you even knowing it?

Turd. Twat.

[kaylasdad99]

Hamadryad has a wife?

Interesting.

[DocCathode]

KGS For the record Hamadryad is a woman.

[KGS]

KGS For the record Hamadryad is a woman. She is? Hmm...she argues like a man. Oh well, it happens.

(And she could still have a wife, you know.)

[Bryan Ekers]

I am reminded of an episode of Law and Order in which McCoy prosecutes a case against some teenage boys who have obviously raped a mentally challenged girl. The twist comes at the end (where else?) when during her testimony she angrily denies being raped, asserting that she wanted to feel love like everyone else. Case closed.

Actually, the boys were convicted but the judge set aside the jury's verdict; correctly, I thought. I'm somewhat skittish over the idea that because of Skoda's evaluation of her mental state, this girl (18 years old, incidentally) can apparently never give informed consent to sex, even if it's with some creeps from her high school.

[Jackmannii]

I'm somewhat skittish over the idea that because of Skoda's evaluation of her mental state, this girl (18 years old, incidentally) can apparently never give informed consent to sex, even if it's with some creeps from her high school.Fortunately, Skoda is working for the C.I.A. now.

[wring]

Fortunately, Skoda is working for the C.I.A. now.

He only did that 'cause of a failed presidential bid by his idol.

[Bryan Ekers]

He only did that 'cause of a failed presidential bid by his idol.

I heard part of it was also the public getting sick of pictures of Spider-Man.

[Czarcasm]

She is? Hmm...she argues like a man. Oh well, it happens.Please tell me you forgot to add a "smiley".

[Bryan Ekers]

Please tell me you forgot to add a "smiley".

I read his aura - he said what he meant.

[Zoe]

Zoe (to Rubystreak):

Sometimes you are so lacking in basic psychological skills and insight that I wonder how you ever ended up in a classroom.

Rubystreak: I take the man at his word. He says he's not mentally ill, then it doesn't matter what I think.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

[Sr Siete]

Meh. Although there are posters who actually get crossed at KGS (Something quite futile, as it's obvious that the man lives in his own particular universe), most people on that thread are just using KGS as an excuse for some good ol' General Belief Bashing / Defending. And those are always fun.

[TwistofFate]

Yes, I meant the Scientologists. Stupid, stupipd mistake made in haste. Mea culpa.

Perhaps a demonstration is in order. Rewind to Ptolemy’s front porch.

KGS: “The Earth is NOT the center of the universe!”

SDBM: “You can’t be serious. Don’t you see the sun rise in the east and set in the west?”

KGS: “That’s only what it looks like from here.”

SDMB: “Can you support that with scientific evidence?”

KGS: “Not yet. I waiting for Copernicus.”

SDMB: “Oh, so you’ve got proof but you can’t show it to us.”

KGS: “But it’s true, I tell you.”

SDMB: “Get the torches and pitchforks, guys. This is gonna be fun.”


This might have some relevance to KGS if anything KGS said actually was true.
And to compare it to Fair Game shows a lack of understanding of what Fair Game actually is. Noone from the SDMB is turning up at KGS';s house and telling his neighbours he's a pedophi;le or trying to sue him to bankrupcy.

[Cervaise]

Well, almost no one.

[Ensign Edison]

Given the "inside joke" from before, I'm curious now whether KGS is not commenting on KGS' gender because there are too many different KGSes in KGS' head to come to a consensus.

[Rubystreak]

Thank you for illustrating my point.

And your point is...? That I should be diagnosing KGS over the internet and then treating him according to my opinion, disregarding his stated wishes? You don't find your way of doing things just a little bit patronizing? Are you so 100% certain that YOU know what's best for him, or even what's really going on with him? It seems entirely possible to me now that he's just having all of us on, but I am not sure. You, I bet, are sure you know exactly what's going on. Because you're an idiot, among other things.

[KGS]

Given the "inside joke" from before, I'm curious now whether KGS is not commenting on KGS' gender because there are too many different KGSes in KGS' head to come to a consensus. Come to think, Nathaniel does have an older sister...

Dunno which "inside joke" you're referring to, though. :confused:

[Zoe]

Rubystreak: And your point is...? That I should be diagnosing KGS over the internet and then treating him according to my opinion, disregarding his stated wishes? You don't find your way of doing things just a little bit patronizing? Are you so 100% certain that YOU know what's best for him, or even what's really going on with him? It seems entirely possible to me now that he's just having all of us on, but I am not sure. You, I bet, are sure you know exactly what's going on. Because you're an idiot, among other things.

Actually, I've made several points. The most recent is this: There is a middle ground between diagnosing KGS and being cruel to him. I have never suggested that anyone but an MD such diagnose him. He was admitted to a hospital for several days and when he left, he had a prescription. Both admission and the release and prescription require a doctor -- although he doesn't remember seeing one upon release.

If KGS is a troll, then paying him negative attention with cruel remarks is feeding his need for attention. If KGS is not a troll, then it doesn't take a specific diagnosis by a physician to see that he is not well. And it doesn't take a classroom teacher to see that human kindness is never inappropriate -- but takes many forms.

Humiliation is never a good teacher, Rubystreak.

[Rubystreak]

Humiliation is never a good teacher, Rubystreak.

What are you attempting to use on me, Zoe? Deriding my capacities as a teacher as a way of shaming me for not treating poor KGS as you wish me to treat him, despite his own express wishes to the contrary? You are a hypocrite, Zoe. And please point to any instance of me trying to humiliate him, though I'm sure you cannot. I argued with him and treated him as an equal. You patronized and condescended to him. Yet somehow you find yourself to be superior here. You're a piece of work.

[Zoe]

Rubystreak: And please point to any instance of me(sic) trying to humiliate him, though I'm sure you cannot. I argued with him and treated him as an equal.

KGS may not consider these statements to be humiliating, but teachers should recognize them as unprofessional and unethical because they are intended to humiliate:

Post 19:
I'm not qualified to say if he's mentally ill, though I have my opinion, but I am qualified to say that, whether or not he's crazy, he's definitely an ass.

Post 35:
KGS is wrong and full of shit.

Post 68:
KGS is spouting nonsense.

Naturally these comments are normal for the Pit. But you have said that you take him at his word. I take it that you have read his original posts about being admitted to the hospital recently for several days and given medication which he was told would be needed for the rest of his life and which he is not taking.

Under those circumstances, I think your words were designed to humiliate him. There is the possibility, of course, that you see him as your equal, but you did not make it clear that you see yourself as "an ass," one who is "wrong and full of shit," and one who is "spouting nonsense."

[Rubystreak]

KGS may not consider these statements to be humiliating, but teachers should recognize them as unprofessional and unethical because they are intended to humiliate:

Wait a second: it's unprofessional and unethical for me, as a teacher, to post in the Pit? How is anything in this or the other thread in any way related to my job as a teacher? Please, I'd like a justification for your illusory linkage between this thread and my job as a teacher, about which you know nothing. You're way out of line in making this completely spurious ad hominem attack. You've set the bar pretty damn low for "humiliation." Don't get out much, do ya? Please, wag your Pit Nanny finger in someone else's face. Your attempts to humiliate me are only serving to make you look foolish.

[Zoe]

Wait a second: it's unprofessional and unethical for me, as a teacher, to post in the Pit?

No. It's unlikely that someone with as much training in psychology as a teacher would have would fail to see those statements as being over the line for someone just out of a mental hospital.

How is anything in this or the other thread in any way related to my job as a teacher? Please, I'd like a justification for your illusory linkage between this thread and my job as a teacher, about which you know nothing.

Remember the Code of Ethics of the Education Profession -- the Preamble and Principle II?

You're way out of line in making this completely spurious ad hominem attack.

You asked me to "...Please point to any instance of me(sic) trying to humiliate him, though I'm sure you cannot." So I did that. The fact that you do not see these as inappropriate for someone who just got out of a mental hospital speaks for itself.

You've set the bar pretty damn low for "humiliation." Don't get out much, do ya?

I'm not certain how one sentence necessarily follows another. I didn't get out much for many years because of my own mental illness. I've become more and more active over the past few years as the mood has struck me. In the last year i have been unusually active.

Please, wag your Pit Nanny finger in someone else's face. Your attempts to humiliate me are only serving to make you look foolish.

So if I criticize you, I'm a "Pit Nanny." If you criticize KGS, you are treating him as an equal. I can't roll my eyes back far enough. If you don't want to see my Pit Nanny finger, stay out of the Pit. My comments about you are only opinions and I will continue to express them. Just be glad that what I have to say about you is only serving to make me "look foolish," as you put it.

[jsgoddess]

No. It's unlikely that someone with as much training in psychology as a teacher

Oh goodie. It's Zoe again doing her psychic detective thing where she can tell, across the internet, what profession people are.

I would say it's delusions of grandeur, but I think it's more correctly called delusions of near competence.

[Hamadryad]

My god, Zoe, if everyone followed the code of ethics and conduct they're supposed to follow at work while they were on the internet, the internet would fucking DIE. Rubystreak needs to be nice to a nutjob in the Pit because she's also a teacher? In your world, doctors never swat bugs because they're supposed to "do no harm," authors never tell other people's jokes because that would be plagiarism, and no psychiatrist anywhere would ever under any circumstances call anyone else a "fucking loon," because they're PROFESSIONALS, damnit!

I can only imagine the sweltering genius you contain, which gives you the ability to determine the proper behavior for everyone else at all times. The pressure must be unbelievable for you to police the rest of us deluded assholes and help us tell Right from Wrong. If you castigate, like, 100 individual Pit posters, do you get a badge or something?

[Zoe]

If you were in one of the professions, other than being a goddess, of course, you might be able to form a reasonable opinion about whether someone is a little out of place in a classroom or not. And that is my opinion of Rubystreak.

Of course our schools are full of teachers these days that shouldn't have received a high school diploma. Standards have deteriorated terribly.

Now with the other person accused of not being a professor, that was not a matter of being psychic. That was a matter of not being ignorant.

You seem to have a burr up your butt about me lately. You've always got something to say about me. Are you just trying to get my attention? Is there something you need?

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you are a professional.

[Lobsang]

I wanted to point out somewhere that Atheism isn't a 'problem' or a defect as KGS seemed to imply.

I believed in ghosts when I was a little boy too. And God (who often liked to urinate on us)

[ivan astikov]

I wanted to point out somewhere that Atheism isn't a 'problem' or a defect as KGS seemed to imply.

I believed in ghosts when I was a little boy too. And God (who often liked to urinate on us)

Hang on? So God's not stamping his feet when it's thundering? Who's throwing those lightning bolts then?

[Lobsang]

Boringly: I never connected thunder and lightning with God. Just the 'rain'.

[Sr Siete]

Hang on? So God's not stamping his feet when it's thundering? Who's throwing those lightning bolts then?


Well, when ice forms inside a cloud, there's this separation of positive and negatively charged molecules that... uh... ahh...

Huh. Fine, I don't really know either. I'm saying that it's Thor.

[jsgoddess]

You seem to have a burr up your butt about me lately. You've always got something to say about me. Are you just trying to get my attention? Is there something you need?

Sure, Zoe. You are my life, my sun and my stars.

Or maybe you're just a vicious bitch who lies on the internet who deserves recognition for your batshittery. Brava, psychic detective. Brava.

[jsgoddess]

I can only imagine the sweltering genius you contain, which gives you the ability to determine the proper behavior for everyone else at all times.

Frankly, I'd like to see a grudge match between the Zoe, Psychic Detective and KGS, Aura Reader.

[Larry Borgia]

She is? Hmm...she argues like a man. Oh well, it happens.

(And she could still have a wife, you know.)Your aura reading ability can't suss out something so fundamental as a person's gender?

[Ensign Edison]

Not to harp on this, but how many dudes have imaginary magical friends named 'Nathaniel'?

[ivan astikov]

Not to harp on this, but how many dudes have imaginary magical friends named 'Nathaniel'?

What would you name yours then?

[Ensign Edison]

Sebastian.

[KGS]

It's unlikely that someone with as much training in psychology as a teacher would have would fail to see those statements as being over the line for someone just out of a mental hospital. How ironic -- I find your statement far more offensive and ignorant that anything Rubystreak ever said. Do you really think that someone from a so-called "mental" hospital is inferior by design? Because that's what you're implying.

Your aura reading ability can't suss out something so fundamental as a person's gender? Of course not -- auras are an extension of someone's psychology, not their biology. We all have masculine and feminine sides, after all.

[ivan astikov]

Sebastian.

Nice choice! Classy, with a touch of the rake about town.

I like Arthur, myself.*




* Me speaking, personally and such.

[Sr Siete]

Well, my dog calls me "Albert" sometimes.

But he's not crazy, that's just his sense of humor.

[Rubystreak]

If Hamadryad and jsgoddess, who are not charter members of my fan club, and KGS, whom I've supposedly humiliated, are defending me, Zoe, then I think perhaps a person possessed of as much wisdom as you claim to be might consider the wrongness of her position. I am able to separate my life in the SDMB Pit from my life as a teacher. You, however, cannot separate reality from your little grudge against me. You are making yourself look stupid. You can stop anytime.

[jsgoddess]

You are making yourself look stupid. You can stop anytime.

I have my doubts that she can.

[Rubystreak]

Of course our schools are full of teachers these days that shouldn't have received a high school diploma. Standards have deteriorated terribly

Wow, now I shouldn't have received a high school diploma, much less a teaching certificate, because I made Zoe mad on the SDMB. Thank god she's an irrelevant, bitter old nutcase whose only outlet is posting nasty shit on the internet, and not someone who gets to make these decisions out in the real world.

Now with the other person accused of not being a professor, that was not a matter of being psychic. That was a matter of not being ignorant.

Ah, but you WERE ignorant, because he IS a professor, and apparently you have chosen to remain ignorant and are still insisting that you're right about this. There's no hope for you, then, as you will ignore reality and distort it to suit your own uninformed opinion.

Turnabout is fair play: if you think you're conducting yourself up to snuff with professional standards based on what you've posted in the Pit, then you're just about as deluded as you claim KGS is. And I have to tell you, as much as I think he's full of shit, he's got a hell of a lot more class than you do.

[Zoe]

Originally Posted by Zoe
Of course our schools are full of teachers these days that shouldn't have received a high school diploma. Standards have deteriorated terribly.

Rubystreak: Wow, now I shouldn't have received a high school diploma, much less a teaching certificate, because I made Zoe mad...

Not everything is about you, Rubystreak. And I couldn't have been referring to you anyway. I was talking about teachers. I don't think of you that way.

And you haven't made me mad. Why would I be mad? Have I done any name-calling? It is just an opinion. If you will notice, I haven't asked you any of the questions that would separate the sheep from the goats. I'm not interested in proving my opinion to be a point of fact.

And you know that I bear you no ill will. The last thing that I said to you before you posted this was to wish you happy holidays spent with those that you love and I wished you peace.

You just want someone to batter around. That can be addicting, you know.

Standards for beginning teachers really are lower now. The National Teachers' Exam hasn't been required in decades. Standards for students are lower too. These facts don't mean that there aren't excellent teachers and students still found in public schools.

Rubystreak: ...then you're just about as deluded as you claim KGS is.

Where have I claimed that KGS is "deluded"?

Rubystreak: ...then I think perhaps a person possessed of as much wisdom as you claim to be might consider the wrongness of her position.

Where have I claimed to be possessed of this wisdom you refer to?

KGS: Do you really think that someone from a so-called "mental" hospital is inferior by design? Because that's what you're implying.

No, KGS. I don't think that people who have been hospitalized for mental illness are inferior. I didn't imply that; you inferred it. I don't have any idea what I said that you inferred it from. I have been an advocate for the mentally ill at the SDMB for the last six years. Most mental illnesses have physical causes anyway.

I am aware that for many patients (not all) the period shortly after they leave the hospital is a very vulnerable time. There is a higher incidence of suicide during that period than at other times. If you were offended, it is because you misunderstood.

Since Rubystreak knows that I'm not actually mad at her and since jsgoddess likes to snip at my heels wherever I go, but does no harm and I don't know most of the others, I'm not going to remain present in this thread to defend myself. I don't need to for those who matter to me. I love the holidays too much to ruin them with pretend battles.

As I've said to Rubystreak before, I think she places too much value on my opinion.

[aldiboronti]

I have a sinking feeling that this thread may extend to 15 pages too, just as its parent thread. The crux of the matter is that these braindead farts enjoy being pitted (see KGS's gleeful bragging upthread).

And the OP has sock written all over him.

[Aswan]

So I am a “sock” or a “troll” because I ask for common decency in what I see as brutish behavior on what is otherwise a fairly civilized message board. After two or three pages, everyone knew what was going to happen. Fifteen pages was an obscene orgy of self gratifying flagellation. It reflected poorly on the SDMB and I pointed that out. But apparently to this board, I was just trying to “stir things up” and bring attention to myself. Sad.

Full disclosure: had I seen the thread earlier, I would have posted to it directly. In hindsight, this would have been more appropriate.

And I do apologize for breaking the de facto rules of the pit. I did not resort to profanity, vulgarity, invective, personal attacks, name calling, or word twisting to suit my own purposes, as did most of the thread respondents. Someone states an opinion and is vilified because it does not fit the group mentality: this is fighting ignorance? I merely stated an observation and pointed out what might have been a more suitable response from the SDMB. My bad, I suppose, for misjudging the reaction.

[Frank]

So I am a “sock” or a “troll” because I ask for common decency in what I see as brutish behavior on what is otherwise a fairly civilized message board.
You're by no means the first new poster who has decided on a quixotic mission to improve the Pit. You won't be the last.

[TVeblen]

And I do apologize for breaking the de facto rules of the pit. I did not resort to profanity, vulgarity, invective, personal attacks, name calling, or word twisting to suit my own purposes, as did most of the thread respondents. Someone states an opinion and is vilified because it does not fit the group mentality: this is fighting ignorance? I merely stated an observation and pointed out what might have been a more suitable response from the SDMB. My bad, I suppose, for misjudging the reaction.
There, there, Aswan. I don't think you're a troll.

I think you're a sanctimonious ass.

You came blaring into the Pit, your major point being your own moral superiority. You flung yourself, metaphorical arms wide, in defense of someone who neither needed nor wanted it. You made a fool of yourself. Which would be okay because it goes along with being human.

Your problem is chronic self-righteousness. Take, for example, your asinine pseudo-apology quoted above. Not a word of truth in it. The Pit is the one forum where certain rules are relaxed, i.e. it's the only forum where flaming is allowed. There are no de facto rules about "profanity, vulgarity, invective, personal attacks, name calling, or word twisting to suit my own purposes."

You didn't "post an observation", you fatuous twit. You started a Pit thread specifically to dress down other posters for behavior you don't like. You picked the fight, bunky. Some posters, KGS demonstrably among them, enjoy heated, toe-to-toe arguments.

Your delicate sensibilities would be best suited to the kitten threads in MPSIMS.

And Zoe has officially wigged out.

[KGS]

I have been an advocate for the mentally ill at the SDMB for the last six years. Most mental illnesses have physical causes anyway.
Well, that's a scary statement. Typical, but scary.

Seems like nobody wants to bother "curing" so-called mental illness anymore. Freudian psychology has fallen out of favor, replaced by chronic medical management -- it's far more profitable, after all. Not to mention the self-satisfaction it gives so-called "mental advocates" who parrot these lies and think to themselves, "At least I'm not like them."

You should try spending 72 hours in county lockdown someday. The nurses don't even respect you as a human being there. Some do, but most don't. Maybe some of the patients there have genuine issues, but for quite a few (like myself), it seems more like they were hospitalized because their Jesus Freak parents felt they were an inconvenience, or they posed a threat to their familial status quo. It happens far more often than you'd think; for all I know, you see these cases every single day, and choose to ignore them.

[Aswan]

Sanctimonious ass. Okay, if that's what it's called here.

The Pit is the one forum where certain rules are relaxed, i.e. it's the only forum where flaming is allowed. There are no de facto rules about "profanity, vulgarity, invective, personal attacks, name calling, or word twisting to suit my own purposes."



Amusing. Your difficulty is in reading comprehension. Posters typicaly apologize for not using such devices because they are expected in the Pit. I didn't and similarly apologized for it. But then, I'm a sanctimonious ass so you have that expectation going in.

I don't have delicate sensibilities, by the way. I simply don't believe the person who can shout the loudest is necessarily right. Merely obnoxious.

And Frank, I agree. But sooner or later, there will be. More likely, though, the latter rather than the former.

Quixotic is the perfect word. As Damon Runyon put it, “The race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong—but that's the way to bet.”

[Jackmannii]

I simply don't believe the person who can shout the loudest is necessarily right. Merely obnoxious.Damn, Aswan.

That's profound.

[Ensign Edison]

You should try spending 72 hours in county lockdown someday. The nurses don't even respect you as a human being there. Some do, but most don't. Maybe some of the patients there have genuine issues, but for quite a few (like myself), it seems more like they were hospitalized because their Jesus Freak parents felt they were an inconvenience, or they posed a threat to their familial status quo. It happens far more often than you'd think; for all I know, you see these cases every single day, and choose to ignore them.

I thought you were hospitalized because you were in a mania, stopped eating, drinking or sleeping and your friends were worried for your life.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

I thought you were hospitalized because you were in a mania, stopped eating, drinking or sleeping and your friends were worried for your life.
I find that frequently, past explanations change based on current perceived needs.

Or there were different reasons for different involuntary holds.

Or both.

[Rubystreak]

Not everything is about you, Rubystreak. And I couldn't have been referring to you anyway. I was talking about teachers. I don't think of you that way.

You shouldn't think of me at all, since you don't know me. I am a teacher. And you're... some nasty words on a screen, making incorrect insinuations based on her pathetic little opinion.

And you haven't made me mad. Why would I be mad? Have I done any name-calling? It is just an opinion. If you will notice, I haven't asked you any of the questions that would separate the sheep from the goats. I'm not interested in proving my opinion to be a point of fact.

You've said some quite nasty things. Worse than "go fuck yourself," in fact. You don't have enough information to have an opinion about what I do for a living. You don't like what I post in the Pit. Somehow, magically, that gives you enough data to decide that I'm not a teacher? By the same mechanism that gave you enough info to decide that PRR wasn't a professor? Wrong, both times. This is how you needle people, how you try to denigrate those who disagree with you. But you are wrong, as you so often are.

And you know that I bear you no ill will. The last thing that I said to you before you posted this was to wish you happy holidays spent with those that you love and I wished you peace.

You do bear me ill will, as you say nasty things to me regularly and have for some time whenever we cross paths here in the Pit, ever since I called you on your accusations about PRR. If that's how you treat people towards whom you bear no ill will, I'd hate to see you with an actual grudge.

You just want someone to batter around. That can be addicting, you know.

:rolleyes: When I do it, it's battering. When you do it, it's what? Wisdom from up on high, I guess.

Standards for beginning teachers really are lower now. The National Teachers' Exam hasn't been required in decades. Standards for students are lower too. These facts don't mean that there aren't excellent teachers and students still found in public schools.

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? We have to take more than one test now to be certified. Do you know what they are? Do you know what the educational requirements are now? They are higher than they were when you taught, and the requirements more stringent and complicated. You are again offering an uninformed opinion based on the reality that exists in your mind, not the real one.

Where have I claimed that KGS is "deluded"?

Rubystreak is being mean to poor, mentally ill KGS. That means she's not a good teacher, if she is even in fact a teacher, and likes to kick people around. That's your basic stance, one that both KGS and I object to.

Where have I claimed to be possessed of this wisdom you refer to?

You can tell, over the internet, that I'm a bad teacher, that KGS is crazy, that PRR isn't a professor... maybe that's not wisdom. Maybe you're psychic! KGS, can you read her aura and tell us? ;)

As I've said to Rubystreak before, I think she places too much value on my opinion.

No, I'm just not going to allow you to slander me. Have a GREAT holiday season!

[KGS]

I thought you were hospitalized because you were in a mania, stopped eating, drinking or sleeping and your friends were worried for your life. It wasn't mania. You can call it that if you like, but for the most part I was focused, analyzing things, and drawing conclusions based on the best logic I could come up with. Certainly, there was excess energy involved (severe disasters -- in this case, the Global Banking Crisis from 9/27 thru 10/15 -- tend to energize me, far more than so-called "normal" people) and I was delving a little too deep into mind-expanding topics like Demonology and M-Theory; but the factual truth is, my family knew I was in hyperspace, they knew but DID NOT INTERVENE until the last minute, because they felt it would reflect badly on them. Or whatever...I don't really know their genuine motivations.

It wasn't without purpose, however. That's the part nobody seems to understand.

[TVeblen]

Amusing. Your difficulty is in reading comprehension. Posters typicaly apologize for not using such devices because they are expected in the Pit. I didn't and similarly apologized for it. But then, I'm a sanctimonious ass so you have that expectation going in.

Some posters 'typicaly' [sic] apologize for not cussing and so tack on a gratuitous cuss word. The practice is one of the most loathed and commonly mocked memes of the board. The rest of your screed--dishonesty, word twisting, etc.--reflects you, not the Dope or the Pit. Your so-called apology was nothing more than public masturbation, you sincerely raining praise and heartfelt congratulations on your own wonderfulness, your superiority, your relative fineness.

My usual reaction to yowling Pit brawls is a bemused, "Well huh, might regret posting that come morning." Of course some posters do; they take a deep breath, back up--sometimes even apologize--agree to some degree or continue the argument in different terms. Others never do, even when they sail far over the top, again and again and again.

It's a message board. People can disagree and argue the hell out of whatever they want. Some of them quite unintentionally make complete fools of themselves. Like you, for instance. Your Pit thread backfired, badly. It happens. Posturing and lying just compounds the fracture.

Knock yourself out, though. Strike noble poses, chastise the masses, shame them by praising yourself, don the mantle of martyrdom for stalwartly refusing to sin as required by all those nasty de facto Pit rules. Your performance, quite inadvertantly, provides one of the most ridiculous, scathing self-caricatures around lately. Actually rather interesting, in a train wreck way.

[Aswan]

Damn, Aswan.

That's profound.

Point taken. Sometimes, however, it's necessary to state the obvious.

[KGS]

Sometimes, however, it's necessary to state the obvious. Or point out the oblivious...

[Aswan]

Veblen, Veblen, Veblen. Calm yourself—no need to go all Dick Cheny here. Sounds like you’re the one who could use a few days in the kitten threads.

Public masturbation? Posturing and lying? Please. I’m flattered that you dug into your war chest of insults, but it appears that you are the one who is a bit over the top. This discussion didn’t backfire badly—it was just a discussion. Trust me, I’m not going to reevaluate my life and join the priesthood in repentance.

Oh, and you’re “quite inadvertantly [sic]” hoist on Gaudere’s petard. Just another of my asinine observations.

Look, you can call me a sanctimonious ass and a fool and a fatuous twit and I can respond for fifteen more pages, but it will amount nothing more than so much chest pounding. I’m not going to make you any more civil and you’re not going to suck me into some street brawl. We’re at an impasse.

So here’s what we do: we agree to disagree, if not as friends, at least on civil terms. Tell you what, like Bill O’Reilly, I’ll give you the last word. You can send me packing with your cudgel firmly in hand. And, unlike Bill, I won’t interrupt you in mid-sentence with some bald assertion and then cut to a commercial break.

To those of you who responded to me reasonably, whether positively or negatively, I thank you. (I will not make you guilty by association in naming you.) But I appreciate well articulated, thoughtful conversation wherever I can find it, regardless of my personal convictions.

Ciao.