Updating a debunking of astrology [Archive] - Straight Dope Message Board

dougie_monty

11-23-2008, 11:49 PM

In 1972 Mad Magazine ran an article on the occult which, among other things, listed people born under the same astrological "sign" who in fact had little or nothing in common with each other: Sophia Loren (Sept. 20) and Twiggy (Sept. 30) in Virgo, and William F. Buckley (Nov. 29) and Abbie Hoffman (Nov. 30) in Sagittarius. But those are outdated. Are there modern pairs that can be listed as examples of dissimilar Virgans and Taureans and such?

OldGuy

11-23-2008, 11:52 PM

I'm not a believer at all in astrology, but shouldn't Sep 20th and Sep 30th be under different signs.

foolsguinea

11-24-2008, 02:04 AM

I don't believe in astrology, but...

You do realize that the tidal effect of the moon, which moves through a conventional "sign" in two days, is much greater than the tidal effect of the sun, right? You have disproven naught.

G1llyB4tes

11-24-2008, 07:02 AM

I'm a Scorpio, we're much too skeptical to believe in astrology.

Musicat

11-24-2008, 07:41 AM

Are there modern pairs that can be listed as examples of dissimilar Virgans and Taureans and such?I know what you're asking, but what is it you're going for? Entertainment? For every dissimilar pair you can find, you can find a pair that ARE similar, so what does that prove?

DrFidelius

11-24-2008, 08:09 AM

Well, this was from that respected peer-reviewed journal MAD.

Larry Mudd

11-24-2008, 08:15 AM

This is not offered as support for astrology, but any attempt to use such examples for a debunking would be dismissed pretty quickly -- anybody that's interested in it will tell you that there aren't going to be 12 cookie-cutter categories.

If you found two people who were born in the exact same place at the exact same instant, you might be on better ground, otherwise it's a bit of a straw man.

hajario

11-24-2008, 09:55 AM

My former sister in laws were fraternal twins with pretty much nothing in common.

Cervaise

11-24-2008, 10:19 AM

Yes, but the sister who was born first, she hogged all the moonbeams.

ivan astikov

11-24-2008, 10:23 AM

Don't tachyons acting at a distance add a little weight to the idea of astrology, or am I way off (moon)beam?

Contrapuntal

11-24-2008, 10:26 AM

Don't tachyons acting at a distance add a little weight to the idea of astrology, or am I way off (moon)beam?How would they do that?

Half Man Half Wit

11-24-2008, 10:33 AM

Merely listing individuals with different characteristics wouldn't be strong evidence against astrology, as others have already pointed out; there'll always be enough fudging room.

If you're merely interested in something factual undermining the foundations of astrology, consider this: solar astrology is based on the sun being in one of the twelve signs of the zodiac. The zodiac was drawn up a long time ago. However, because of something called precession (i.e. the axis of a rotating body performing a small circular movement), the relative position of the stars in the sky changes over time -- they appear to move slowly westward. The earth completes such a precession movement in about 25,800 years, which means that the zodiac, today, doesn't correspond to the constellations any more. Thus, there can be no connection between astrological sign and personality.

Of course, that usually just gets people to claim that the whole star thing was just incidental in the first place, and that it's really all about, uhm, seasonal changes*, yeah that's the ticket, this time for real. :rolleyes:

*Although there is evidence of some correlation between personality and time period of gestation, linked to changing hormone levels in the mother during the seasons.

Half Man Half Wit

11-24-2008, 10:45 AM

Don't tachyons acting at a distance add a little weight to the idea of astrology, or am I way off (moon)beam?
Tachyons, if they do exist, preserve causality, i.e. you can't use them to transport information faster than light.

Exapno Mapcase

11-24-2008, 10:48 AM

Dividing all the people in the world into 12 categories? That's insane!

The proper number is four.

You Are Your Blood Type (http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Your-Blood-Type/dp/0671633422).

Rhythmdvl

11-24-2008, 10:49 AM

I thought it may help to have the original journal article (http://flickr.com/photos/24165035@N06/3056594762/sizes/l/)to review.

DrFidelius

11-24-2008, 12:21 PM

Dividing all the people in the world into 12 categories? That's insane!

The proper number is four.

You Are Your Blood Type (http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Your-Blood-Type/dp/0671633422).

There are two types of people in the world. Those who divide the world into two types of people and those who don't.

obfusciatrist

11-24-2008, 12:26 PM

Uh oh, I may have proved astrology.

July 15, 1935
One born in Gary, Indiana, the other just 120 miles away in Wolcottville, Indiana.

Both have surnames starting with a K.

Eerily, both men went on to star in oh-so-'80s prime time television shows.

Alex Karras in Webster and Ken Kercheval in Dallas.

Now that we've finally demonstrated the veracity of astrology I think this board can move on to other things.

Seriously though, I was amused that the first birthdate pair I found happened to be semi-contradictory to the OP's intent.

Le Ministre de l'au-delà

11-24-2008, 12:32 PM

There are two types of people in the world. Those who divide the world into two types of people and those who don't.

No, no, no - there are 10 types of people in the world - those who read binary and those who don't.

One of the best and most straight-forward debunkings of astrology ever - a big welcome for Phil Plait (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html).

Bill Door

11-24-2008, 12:39 PM

oops

Chronos

11-24-2008, 12:45 PM

An astrological chart has an influence corresponding to each of the planets. The Sun's influence is regarded as the strongest, and it's easiest to determine, but the moon sign and house rising (corresponding to the Earth itself) are supposedly nearly as important, and the moon sign requires a precision of a couple of days or so, while the house rising requires a precision of a couple of hours. So a thorough debunking of astrology would require two people with the same sun sign, moon sign, and house rising, which in practice probably means that they were born within a couple of hours of each other.

Contrapuntal

11-24-2008, 12:49 PM

So a thorough debunking of astrology would require two people with the same sun sign, moon sign, and house rising, which in practice probably means that they were born within a couple of hours of each other.Me and my twin brother would qualify, and our lives have taken very divergent paths.

hajario

11-24-2008, 12:51 PM

So a thorough debunking of astrology would require two people with the same sun sign, moon sign, and house rising, which in practice probably means that they were born within a couple of hours of each other.

Like the twin sisters that I mentioned upthread who were born within minutes of each other.

F. U. Shakespeare

11-24-2008, 01:24 PM

That Mad article prompted me to collect pairs of people with not only the same sign, but the same birthday. My favorite "twins" were:

- Don Knotts and Ernest Hemingway (21 July); and

- G. Gordon Liddy and Shirley Chisholm (Nov 30)

(I actually think that G. Gordon Liddy and anyone sharing a birthday would suffice as evidence against astrology).

I was always amused at people who would say that these twins weren't all that different ("Well, Don and Ernie were both in the arts", or "G. and Shirley were both involved in politics"). I would ask them, name two people whom you DO consider different.

ivan astikov

11-24-2008, 04:41 PM

How would they do that?

Wouldn't their existence give some credence to the possibilty of instantaneous transmission of characteristics/information from far off planets, which is what astrology is claiming?

Musicat

11-24-2008, 06:43 PM

Wouldn't their existence give some credence to the possibilty of instantaneous transmission of characteristics/information from far off planets, which is what astrology is claiming?Ignoring your "instantaneous transmission" claim for the moment, how does something happening on Saturn affect, say, your ability to play music? Can you propose a credible causal link with ANYTHING other than gravity happening on ANY other planet affecting ANYTHING at all on Earth, let alone human personality characteristics?

glee

11-24-2008, 06:55 PM

Since astrologers routinely predict events, how can you not believe in it?

Which events, you ask?
Errr....

KneadToKnow

11-24-2008, 07:17 PM

I wouldn't think anything would be needed to debunk astrology beyond the James Randi experiment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dp2Zqk8vHw).

ivan astikov

11-24-2008, 07:27 PM

Ignoring your "instantaneous transmission" claim for the moment, how does something happening on Saturn affect, say, your ability to play music? Can you propose a credible causal link with ANYTHING other than gravity happening on ANY other planet affecting ANYTHING at all on Earth, let alone human personality characteristics?

No.

* shuffles out of thread, all disconsolate *

postcards

11-24-2008, 08:05 PM

An astrological chart has an influence corresponding to each of the planets...

So what happens now that Pluto is no longer a planet?

Xema

11-24-2008, 08:31 PM

Can you propose a credible causal link...
One of the interesting aspects of astrology is that (so far as I understand it, which may not be especially well) no mechanism for its effects is ever postulated, or thought necessary. You're not supposed to ask HOW the stars/planets/asteroids etc. control your life - they just DO.

Little Nemo

11-24-2008, 09:03 PM

Cisco

11-24-2008, 10:25 PM

Susan B. Anthony and Paris Hilton - both Aquarius
Abraham Lincoln and Dan Quayle - both Aquarius
Ayn Rand and Zsa Zsa Gabor - both Aquarius
Wolfgang Mozart and Dr Dre - both Aquarius
George Washington and Sirhan Sirhan - both Pisces
Glenn Miller and Kurt Cobain - both Pisces
Rubert Murdoch and Ralph Nader - both Pisces
Samuel Alito and Alec Baldwin - both Aries
Warren Beatty and Richard Chamberlain - both Aries
Jack Chick and Leonardo da Vinci - both Aries
Carmen Electra and Katherine Hepburn - both Taurus
Adolf Hitler and Golda Meir - both Taurus
Florence Nightingale and Bettie Page - both Taurus
George Bush and Bob Dylan - both Gemini
Newt Gingrich and Che Guevera - both Gemini
Queen Victoria and Marilyn Monroe - both Gemini
Meryl Streep and Lindsay Lohan - both Cancer
Bob Dole and Hunter Thompson - both Cancer
Thurgood Marshall and O.J. Simpson - both Cancer
Thank you! I was about to pull my hair out with each successive post in which people had to play the popular SDMB game of "I'm not going to answer your question, but look how smart I am."

Good resources for you, OP, would be IMDB.com and Wikipedia. Just start typing in contemporary celebrities' names and with only 12 "signs", you're bound to start finding matches quickly.

Exapno Mapcase

11-24-2008, 11:02 PM

Thank you! I was about to pull my hair out with each successive post in which people had to play the popular SDMB game of "I'm not going to answer your question, but look how smart I am."

Good resources for you, OP, would be IMDB.com and Wikipedia. Just start typing in contemporary celebrities' names and with only 12 "signs", you're bound to start finding matches quickly.

Exactly. Anybody can look up celebrity birthdays until they're tired on clicking on links. Including the OP. Why should any of the rest of us bother? This isn't a factual question in the first place. It's just list making. It shouldn't even be in GQ.

Nothing to do with how smart we are. Everything to do with the question asked.

dougie_monty

11-25-2008, 12:21 AM

Thanks to Little Nemo and Cisco. :)
I have my own reasons--scientific grounds, to be sure--to oppose astrology, but I know damn well that trying to convince an astrology buff with science is like trying to shove a cat out from under a porch with a wet rope!
More to the point, I want to play the game by the astrologers' rules and I can still win. A case in point is two girls with whom I went to high school, "Molly" (born December 29, 1948) something of an Alexis Carrington Colby type, and "Vickie" (born January 1, 1950) more of a Krystle Carrington type. ("Capricorn.") The two grew up in the same neighborhood and crossed swords for ten years--I was in the same senior class in high school and my path crossed their paths countless times. (I was born June 10, 1949, FWIW.) The two were quite different in that "Molly" seemed to have no concept of ethics (though a minister's daughter) and "Vickie" was a perfect role model. :)

dougie_monty

11-25-2008, 12:47 AM

I'm not a believer at all in astrology, but shouldn't Sep 20th and Sep 30th be under different signs.
You're right, Old Guy; I goofed. Twiggy's birthday is September 19th. :o

Tierce

11-25-2008, 02:13 AM

Glenn Miller and Kurt Cobain - both PiscesThanks a lot. Now I've got a grunge version of Tuxedo Junction stuck in my head.

Cisco

11-25-2008, 09:56 AM

Exactly. Anybody can look up celebrity birthdays until they're tired on clicking on links. Including the OP. Why should any of the rest of us bother? This isn't a factual question in the first place. It's just list making. It shouldn't even be in GQ.

Nothing to do with how smart we are. Everything to do with the question asked.
It's not your business if it's in the wrong forum or not. If you don't want to answer the question, fine, but do you really need to flaunt your non-answer in the guy's face for god's sake? It's rude. He didn't ask what arguments will and will not convince astrology believers - he asked which celebrities with wildly different personalities share signs. If you're butthurt about it being in the wrong forum then report it. If you want to talk about your own topic, start your own thread. How is what all of you guys did anything less than a hijack - which is looked down on for very good reasons?

Anaglyph

11-25-2008, 01:10 PM

Apparently, it has been shown (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-444681/Astrology-wont-help-true-love-claim-scientists.html) that marriages between "astrologically compatible" people don't last any longer than marriages between "astrologically incompatible" people

Colibri

11-25-2008, 07:20 PM

It's not your business if it's in the wrong forum or not. If you don't want to answer the question, fine, but do you really need to flaunt your non-answer in the guy's face for god's sake? It's rude. He didn't ask what arguments will and will not convince astrology believers - he asked which celebrities with wildly different personalities share signs. If you're butthurt about it being in the wrong forum then report it. If you want to talk about your own topic, start your own thread. How is what all of you guys did anything less than a hijack - which is looked down on for very good reasons?

[Moderating]

This is rather ironic, since you were the one who started criticizing other posters, while at the same time failing to report the thread yourself. Whatever your opinion of what others have posted, this post is over the top. In the future refrain from this kind of post in GQ.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

Colibri

11-25-2008, 07:28 PM

dougie_monty

11-26-2008, 12:22 AM

Given that this thread does lend itself more to list making than a simple factual answer, I think it is probably better off in MPSIMS than GQ.

Hey, I have the same birthday as Pope Paul VI. Case closed.

Oh, well... :D
FWIW, I have the same birthday as Judy Garland, but I'm not left-handed. And I would look like hell in Dorothy's dress!
As for singing, I once commented to "Vickie" and her parents that I liken my singing to Alfalfa's. She called that self-deprecating. (She became a professional singer.)
Incidentally, I'm not so sure I could have stood up as courageously to Exapno Mapcase as Cisco did... :(

Nicolas Bourbaki

11-26-2008, 01:38 AM

dougie_monty

11-26-2008, 01:47 AM

I have the same birthday as the current Pope and my R.A., and I seem to be the same lovable scamp I've always been. Tho I suppose with the number of popes* there've been, the Catholics have covered the spread pretty well.
*And saints, now that I think about it. EVERYONE on Earth is Catholic astrologically.

There have been about 265 (not including the apostle Peter, who, the Church's assertions notwithstanding, was never in Rome). Some of them are bound to have the same birthday, lost though the records may be in antiquity; and I thought there were 223 saints. (I used to know a Catholic girl named Jo, born on February 17; I wonder what her name would have been had her parents followed the Catholic calendar, or rather, the list of saints?)

Mahaloth

11-26-2008, 01:00 PM

I wouldn't think anything would be needed to debunk astrology beyond the James Randi experiment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dp2Zqk8vHw).

I like this one, with James Randi, Hugh Laurie, and Stephen Fry.

Astrologer and Hugh Laurie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDhxcIaC23k)

dougie_monty

11-28-2008, 12:54 AM

I like this one, with James Randi, Hugh Laurie, and Stephen Fry.

Astrologer and Hugh Laurie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDhxcIaC23k)

Those are YouTube links and, based on my failure with Edith Piaf's "Milord," I don't trust AOL's ability to download stuff from YouTube with any promptness.

Tapioca Dextrin

11-28-2008, 01:20 AM

I have the same birthday as the current Pope

I share the same birthday as Jamie Foxx and Steve Buscemi. Should I expect an invitation to a Hollywood casting couch in the near future?

[size]

dougie_monty

11-28-2008, 02:08 AM

I share the same birthday as Jamie Foxx and Steve Buscemi. Should I expect an invitation to a Hollywood casting couch in the near future?

[size]
That's just as likely as the Screen Actors Guild issuing me a membership because Judy Garland had one; or me being admitted to the California Bar because F. Lee Bailey, a well-known lawyer, was also born on June 10. :D