Evil Dead Mafia Forbidden Thread - The Cabin in the Woods

[NAF1138]

Fair point. I don't remember if the masons were told I was a mason or not. But they believed that I was so I suppose that is all that matters.

There were a lot of things broken about Batman, that being said it was still the most fun I had ever had playing town in a mafia game. This game ran a really close second though.


BTW: did town find out a mason lied to them consistantly and I missed it?

[storyteller0910]

BTW: did town find out a mason lied to them consistantly and I missed it?

No. I mean, not yet.

[NAF1138]

Ok, I was just checking.

So, I still can't get those spoilers, huh? I hope it's worth it, because the suspense...it's killing me.

[Blaster Master]

Nevermind

[Blaster Master]

Ok, I was just checking.

So, I still can't get those spoilers, huh? I hope it's worth it, because the suspense...it's killing me.

I'm spoiled. :D

[NAF1138]

You bastard!

ETA:

1) That was supposed to be in all caps.

2) I am sure story has a reason for keeping me from being spoiled...but it hurts. I hope the reason is good.

[storyteller0910]

BlaM and peeker are not eligible to be contacted, ressurected, restored, consulted, or nudged. Their game is over, and therefore both are eligible to receive full spoilers, if they ask.

[Pleonast]

But in a hypothetical game where you discovered that the Masons had lied a number of times, sometimes in ways that do not necessarily correspond with obviously pro-Town motives, would you be inclined to make sure that the Masons didn't survive until endgame, just in case? Especially as a former EvilMasonTM yourself?For me, a mason* is Town, period. I'll only question their alignment if I question their claim. Questionable behavior might lead to lynching one of the group to confirm their alignment. If a lynched mason's alignment is revealed as "Town", then I will trust the other masons absolutely. To do otherwise would lead to doubting the truthfulness of the moderator, which I refuse to do.

*By which I mean a member of an intra-confirming group that is Town.

[ToeJam]

Fair point. I don't remember if the masons were told I was a mason or not. But they believed that I was so I suppose that is all that matters.

They were told you were their Leader. Sort of a "boss" character. But not a mason. You just had access to view their boards, and you could win with them. I still loved my Masons from that game, it was brilliantly done in retrospect, and you certainly did a great job there, NAF. Alot of roles could have been seriously screwed up or scrapped the game fallen apart in many ways, but thanks to the players in them it was able to keep going and hold up (You as the Evil Mason Overlord, Hal in the "I can't win" role of the Riddler and almost pulling it off, S.Rugger as the first Daykilling SK, BlaM as Alfred the Butler in an impossible situation of scum, Draingead for actually CHOOSING to willingly take a complex fake claim and run with it....) All those elements had to come together to work and it was a great game to watch and read, spoiled or not. :D

[Pleonast]

I'm much more comfortable with the scrutiny being applied to Mhaye now, so I'm going to beat the bushes for a bit.

JSexton has dropped off the face of the game toDay, by my reckoning.

amrussel kinda looks like he's fishing for clues as to "how to write a better fake PM than Mhaye".

And I still think some of brewha's statements around the end of the Day yesterday are quite fishy.There's an excellent scum list. I'd guess two or three of those four players are scum.

[ToeJam]

BlaM and peeker are not eligible to be contacted, ressurected, restored, consulted, or nudged. Their game is over, and therefore both are eligible to receive full spoilers, if they ask.

Can I get spoiled then? Since I designed parts of the game and know the setup? (And i think i know what if the masons are lying about something).
~~~~~~~~
Roosh's Rules for Balanced Dirty Masons
As for the idea of Dirty Masons- the key is simple- if you make them dirty, the best way to do so is one of two ways:
1. Tell the mason if they die, they WILL show up as PFK Masons *no matter what. This basically makes the masons understand that they can play as masons until one of them dies. As soon as that happens it will all fall apart. So basically only 1 of them can truly "claim" mason and the others would have to hide, because if you have multiple masons coming up and one is scum- you sure as hell are going to have to kill off the others.
2. You tell the masons that one of them is Evil. This is the solo dirty masons. This way when the masons are revealed, they themselves will be playing and internal game trying to figure out if there is a scummy one amongst them, and the town must know of it ASAP (or not, if the masons want to keep it private). However, that mason should when he dies show up as scum or PFK alone.

Those are the two scenarios that I always consider in a game and always consider putting as I feel they're balanced enough on their own for Dirty Masons.

*The fact that it shows up as a PFK MASON vs. PFK indicates that the entire mason group is playing for keeps. Thats a HUGE thing to point out, else a Dirty mason from case 2 would just spell downfall for the town by then allowing all the other masons to be lynched. The Mod MUST make a clarifcation for the two scenarios.

[Hal Briston]

Hal in the "I can't win" role of the Riddler and almost pulling it off,Fricking Nightwing...man, would I give up a lot to go back and change that one guess...

[ToeJam]

There's an excellent scum list. I'd guess two or three of those four players are scum.

The only issue I have is the amrussel mhaye one. If both are scum, why not just ask offboards that question?

[Pleonast]

The only issue I have is the amrussel mhaye one. If both are scum, why not just ask offboards that question?Classic throwing your teammate under a bus.

[sachertorte]

*The fact that it shows up as a PFK MASON vs. PFK indicates that the entire mason group is playing for keeps. Thats a HUGE thing to point out, else a Dirty mason from case 2 would just spell downfall for the town by then allowing all the other masons to be lynched. The Mod MUST make a clarifcation for the two scenarios.

Well, that's the problem. You made a distinction that satisfies your own personal definition and "the way the world works" but no one else is privy to the workings inside your head. If you publish "PFK" or "PFK Mason," to many people there would be no distinction, no clear way to determine whether all masons are PFK or just the one. It's all fine and good that you want to make a distinction, but that distinction is arbitrary and unknown to the rest of us.

PFK Mason is something to be avoided. It is better to simply call them Cabal, because that's what they are.

[ToeJam]

It's all fine and good that you want to make a distinction, but that distinction is arbitrary and unknown to the rest of us.

The distinction would be made in the death flavor of course. No worries on that one. PFK/ PFKMason are just modding terms I'd use. Sheesh. The death flavor would point out X was playing alone as the traitorous mason or whatever his name would be, but for my spreadsheets and such, I'd keep him down as a PFKMason and that'd be his "alignment" or whatnot, but the death would make clear how he was playing and such- as each of the PFK's deaths in Batman did- each was playing alone.

[ToeJam]

PFK Mason is something to be avoided. It is better to simply call them Cabal, because that's what they are.

Well, Cabal to me indicates recruitment. And that's a bad taste in everyone's mouth with a whole crap load of worries and such.
So non-recruiting Cabal= "dirty mason!" :P
Plus, the bonus of the Dirty masons- they KNOW they're the only Masons around and that's the bonus they get for the fact that when one of them dies, the whole jig is up.

That's why As scum, I always consider taking out a mason or two- but the problem is in these games, they're almost NEVER Power roles NOR is there a chance of them being PFK. But if a scum takes out a mason and he's a dirty mason- it buys the scum 2-3 days with which they can try to derail the town by making them look for more masons and such (with the whole point of course being that PFK Masons aren't really a "threat" to the town, until the endgame.... As PFK Masons would have to outnumber townies and scum- so they're a nonlethal Scum group- and its more efficient just to focus on hunting for scum still and ignoring the masons until it starts to get closer to Lynch or Lose.... Though, scum would want to convince the town that the opposite is true, and that both are equally bad things!

[Hoopy Frood]

Yeah, I agree with the general sentiment towards "dirty masons" that they should be avoided. I even got into a disagreement with one of the mods of SDMB over it (which didn't have dirty masons, BTW). I think it was hawkeyeop, but I don't recall.

Though, given Roosh's approach, I can see how it at least adds some fairness to the mechanic. I don't know if I would ever use it since I haven't given it enough thought, but at least town has an ability to know the masons are dirty.

Masons' power is that they are inherently confirmable. That's what makes them useful whether or not they have extra powers. In Marvel, we were trying to figure out how to get my bomb power to activate, but in the end we decided that it was better to just play straight mason and let the chips fall where they may. Because the fact that we were confirmable town was the important part. The bomb power would have been nice, but it was the "reduction on the meat" so to speak.

[sachertorte]

Well, Cabal to me indicates recruitment.
Why is that the case?

"Mason" has a very specific meaning in these games. If you really want a separate group that could pretend to be masons then you can give them some other label and tell them that there are no masons in the game. That way you won't have people whining about mason abuse.

[Pleonast]

The discussion about dirty masons reminds me why I prefer open setups. I prefer that all the rules be described up front. It's hard enough to play without making anti-Town mistakes when you know the rules. Making an anti-Town mistake because there's something in the setup you don't know is doubly annoying.

[Hoopy Frood]

The discussion about dirty masons reminds me why I prefer open setups. I prefer that all the rules be described up front. It's hard enough to play without making anti-Town mistakes when you know the rules. Making an anti-Town mistake because there's something in the setup you don't know is doubly annoying.

You should totally play in the game Naf, Rysto, and I are designing. There will be no anti-Town mistakes to make because there is no Town. No traditional scum either. The players form their own alliances, which they are free to break as they see fit.

[Pleonast]

You should totally play in the game Naf, Rysto, and I are designing. There will be no anti-Town mistakes to make because there is no Town. No traditional scum either. The players form their own alliances, which they are free to break as they see fit.Definitely interested! I'm curious to what mechanism you'll be using.

[ToeJam]

You should totally play in the game Naf, Rysto, and I are designing. There will be no anti-Town mistakes to make because there is no Town. No traditional scum either. The players form their own alliances, which they are free to break as they see fit.

This intrigues me as well.
Keep me informed. :D

[NAF1138]

We aim to tantalize! I figure if one of the three of us keeps talking about it casually every couple of months people will be chomping at the bit to play by the time it is actually ready.

[CatInASuit]

Sounds like Mafia Diplomacy, could be interesting.

One of these days, I ought to try running my own game.

[ToeJam]

If you really want a separate group that could pretend to be masons then you can give them some other label and tell them that there are no masons in the game. That way you won't have people whining about mason abuse.

Heh, but then I can't laugh as the Town tries to use its preconceived notions and they fail miserably. :points to the G in Bastard:
I like playing in games, but I like to MAKE my games when I feel like things are getting the same, or people are in a rut- and try to change things around a bit. It's the only way to keep it interesting. The only reason I'd throw in that Mason bit is because Masons get a free ride so often. I'm deliberately obfuscating things for the Townies and the "standard" players. (Rooshian methods vs. Storytelling Methods again). I know this isn't "fun" for everyone, but that's why I don't make so many Games :D
But when I do... you better be on your toes. (Like NAF's No Power Role game- I'd been kicking an idea like that around, but I just concluding it'd be too dastardly, as It'd be fun for me, but not the players (Which is always my goal #2- make the game fun too, hence Gastard and not straight out Bastard- i don't want to screw over people, but I want to have a challenging game, with perhaps a greater emphasis on Fun and amusement rather than balance and logic). As soon as I saw Storyteller was scum in that No PowerRole Game, I knew the game was done...that's just too easy- esp. when he claimed Cop.... Just- you don't give a marksman that much ammo and time to set up his team, you know? It was just a lesson in how Scum can crush a Town that depends on Power Roles to save it.

[Hoopy Frood]

Definitely interested! I'm curious to what mechanism you'll be using.

There will be lot of "traditional" mafia roles, but with certain tweaks for balance and with very interesting flavor provided by Rysto. (He's got me interested in actually reading the series he based it off of. Of course, my list of books I want to read is ginormous anyway, so I don't know when I'll get around to it.)

It started with an idea I had for an all PFK last-man-standing type thing, akin to Survivor. And Naf volunteered to help me balance it. Rysto had been thinking about doing a game based on the flavor he had in mind, and realized this game would work. So he volunteered to help with color. So with tweaks, color, and balancing figured in, the game has morphed into something which is much better than what it started as. (Though, we're not quite finished. The Holidays slowed our progress a lot.) So the general idea is still there, but it won't quite be "last man standing".

There also won't be many rules. The players will have the ability to PM each other, and editing within the edit time window will be allowed.

The lynch mechanic will still be there, and will likely be treated as it is in most mafia games. (Standard "largest number of votes".)

The nice thing is, most strategies are valid because this is largely a Lord of the Flies type setup. So you can vote off lurkers and won't worry about whether they are allied with you or not. You can vote someone just because they annoy you. But understand, they can do the same right back to you.

So it's not really mafia as such. It's more a mafia inspired game that the players pretty much run themselves. We mods are just there to provide flavor, make sure nothing gets broken, and to collect and organize the various PMs. (Yes, not carbon copying the mods on the PM's is a modkillable offense.)

[Hoopy Frood]

Sounds like Mafia Diplomacy

That's actually a very apt description.

[Pleonast]

Sounds fun, although I'm certain to die quickly. :)

Ok, since I'm working on several Mafia rules set at the moment, can I get opinions on which sound more fun to play in?

1. Conspiracy 3. Smaller (~20 players), reshuffled secret powers, but otherwise similar set up to the previous two.

2. Munchkin Mafia. I posted a preliminary rules set on Idle's board. Basically players have D&D alignments: Good vs Evil, Lawful vs Chaotic, with joint win conditions. Everyone is a power role, but alignment detection is unlikely, so it'll require real Mafia-play to root out players.

3. I was kicking around an idea vaguely similar to yours. No vanilla roles, every player has the same set of one-off powers. Everyone has different victory conditions, but a lot of overlap. So players A, B and C could try to win together, or B, C and D, but A and D cannot win together.

4. A cooperative game where players still compete, but no one dies. Not really mafia, but still might be fun. Borderline role-playing game.

[sachertorte]

2. Munchkin Mafia. I posted a preliminary rules set on Idle's board. Basically players have D&D alignments: Good vs Evil, Lawful vs Chaotic, with joint win conditions. Everyone is a power role, but alignment detection is unlikely, so it'll require real Mafia-play to root out players.

3. I was kicking around an idea vaguely similar to yours. No vanilla roles, every player has the same set of one-off powers. Everyone has different victory conditions, but a lot of overlap. So players A, B and C could try to win together, or B, C and D, but A and D cannot win together.


Interesting. I read 2 and 3 and figured they are quite similar. I like the idea of multiple factions, but some factions are friendly and others are not friendly. You would need at least 4 factions, probably five.

One thing you could do is have five factions and each faction needs two factions dead to win. So there is only one faction winner, but you have some allies in that you don't need each other dead and you need the same faction dead to win....
Interesting.
But that would be an enormous game, with a surprisingly early endgame.

[Pleonast]

My game 3 idea has victory conditions like this:You win when all remaining players are voting for you. You also win if any one of the players W, X, Y, Z has all the votes.Note, that voting determines the winner, not who dies (players are killed via one-shot powers or other mechanisms). Each player has a different set of potential co-winners. You don't know who will win when you do. So while you may support player W, he doesn't really know if it's genuine support. Posting and personal messages would be unrestricted, so players would be able to form ad hoc alliances, but with unknown actual intentions.

In my game 2 idea, there are four teams: LG, CG, LE, CE. The Evil players will know each other, but not their L/C alignments. Each team can win independently, or all Good can win together, or all Evil, or (with great difficulty) all Lawful (all Chaotics cannot win together :p ). Oh, and to make it fun, every player has a transferable "magic item" that gives them special powers in addition to their class powers.

As you can see, I love exploring different team paradigms, beyond the typical Town vs Scum vs Other.

[Hoopy Frood]

My game 3 idea has victory conditions like this:You win when all remaining players are voting for you. You also win if any one of the players W, X, Y, Z has all the votes.Note, that voting determines the winner, not who dies (players are killed via one-shot powers or other mechanisms). Each player has a different set of potential co-winners. You don't know who will win when you do. So while you may support player W, he doesn't really know if it's genuine support. Posting and personal messages would be unrestricted, so players would be able to form ad hoc alliances, but with unknown actual intentions.

Interesting. It does have some of the same ideas as ours. If you want to, we might need a fourth mod (or even two mods) to be the gameplay PM organizer(s) in the beginning (the mod(s) would be welcome to other tasks, but keeping track of the PM's will be a big effort until people start dying off). Non-gameplay related PM's will go to me. (I.e. role questions, rules questions, reports of rule violatinos, etc.) If so, you're welcome to do it rather than play.

It should be fun to watch or play. The game will be partially open, but how open hasn't been determined yet.

[Pleonast]

Oh, I'd much rather play in your game. :D

You're actually planning to track PMs? That's a chore, and my games tend to be chore-intensive for the mod.

[NAF1138]

Oh, I'd much rather play in your game. :D

You're actually planning to track PMs? That's a chore, and my games tend to be chore-intensive for the mod.

Yeah, that's a thing of mine. I like to have full transperancy behind the scenes.

Hoopy, go read the design board again. Today's talk over here has given me ideas.

[Hoopy Frood]

Oh, I'd much rather play in your game. :D

You're actually planning to track PMs? That's a chore, and my games tend to be chore-intensive for the mod.

Yeah, that's the thing. Since much of the player strategizing will no doubt be happening behind the scenes between each other, the mods have to be kept in the loop, both so that all the spoiled know what going on and so the mods can make sure no one is actually violating any rules.

It's the part of the setup I don't like from an administration standpoint. It'll be intense for the mods. The tradeoff is, there will be no scum board, mason boards, etc. and it should make for great intrigue and fun for the players.

The other option is that the behind-the-scenes PM's be split between the mods based on the divisions of the players that will become apparent when the game starts. That might be fairer.

[NAF1138]

Well...we don't actually have to monitor the PM's if we don't want to. I just think it would be more fun to know what is going on behind the scenes in terms of power brokering. We would only need to be copied on certain official PMs (if we wanted to make things easier on ourselves.)

[storyteller0910]

HELP!

I need an unbiased opinion from the peanut gallery. A player, I will not say who, has submitted a Night action, I won't say what. Just now. At 7:27PM, or approximately 45 minutes after the clearly-stated deadline in place since the start of the game.

As I was running late, I received this message at the same time as the others, but it was clearly and admittedly late.

What do I do? I will state for the record that this decision will have an extremely significant effect on the outcome of the game. Won't break the game either way, but the outcome will push the game firmly in one direction, or in the other.

Advice frantically needed.

[Pleonast]

Late is late. Unless there is some extremely mitigating circumstance, the action should not count.

[NAF1138]

Don't do it. The rules are there for a reason and that player fucked up. Sucks to be him/her and to be on his/her team (as I am assuming I am) but thems the breaks.

If you had ended the Night on time it wouldn't be an issue right? This is no different.

ETA: if you decide not to go the way pleo and I suggest, I want to change my action for Day 3 from Chucara to the zeriel PM I sent you and get the chance to post my results. (See what I mean?)

[storyteller0910]

<sigh>

The player sent about fifty PMs in the Night. The player was going back and forth on a bunch of options, but explicitly stated that none of the PMs was meant to be an official decision. The player then got stuck at work, and was delayed delivering the final choice.

It sucks and I'm really sorry about it.

But I think you guys are right; the rules are the rules, and it would be enormously unfair to bend them selectively, especially given the magnitude of the proposed action.

[NAF1138]

Yeah, you can't. I feel bad for player x. I know exactly how much it sucks to not be able to get a PM in on time.

[Rysto]

Not to rub it in for player X or anything, but this is why it's a good idea to send orders in early, but reserve the right to change your mind before the deadline.

Oh, well, it's just a game.

[peekercpa]

I think you should flip a coin and see if you can get a lesbian to light Bret Favre's hair on fire.


Meh, another two cents.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be resurrected, so where's the spoiled board?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Anybody?

[Darth Sensitive]

Yeah, you can't. I feel bad for player x. I know exactly how much it sucks to not be able to get a PM in on time.

Or a vote :mad:

[ToeJam]

I still want in on the spoiler board myself, Cookies.... :Grumbles:
And i kinda wanna know what you were by that obscure definition....

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Yeah there's not really a lot I can say in here, I don't think, and a lot of temptation to say more than I should.

[peekercpa]

Now I am even more pissed. Could have made it to double digits without extraneous stuff.

Ah, sheep doodle.

I come back to my observation about town screwing up a wet dream.

[peekercpa]

And I am putting it public so that the next game I play it can be considered canon. Lynch the freaking lurkers. Not saying that it makes them scum, but it sure makes the game hard to watch. Apparently I could extend my shelf life if I just posted a couple of drive bys every now and then. Until someone "prod" votes you and then you pull a Nanook. I mean seriously Hal gets to skate, what, three days. And now Rapier pulls a Houdini. And all the focus is on the participants. I'd rather lose to players than let non participants smarm off with a win.

Seriously, even fluff is better than nothing. Of course, Pleo and I don't see eye to eye on that one.

[storyteller0910]

Hey, all -

At this point, I am fairly certain it has become impossible for any of you to be ressurrected. I will therefore offer spoiler board access to any player who requests it via PM.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

My tongue is about to fall off from chewing on it so much....

[Hal Briston]

Since Cookies died, she wasn't the mystery person protected by MHaye.Geez Natlaw -- way to scream "Hey, I'm MHaye's scumbuddy!"

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Um...is everyone else off in the spoiler thread but me? Or is storyteller making us all sit here and squirm? :D

[Rysto]

I'm around, but to be honest I'm not paying all that much attention to the game.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Are you spoiled, Rysto?

[Rysto]

Nope. I prefer to watch games unspoiled.

[peekercpa]

Nope. I prefer to watch games unspoiled.

This such a load of crap you spoiled bastard.

Mom always gave you the mini marshmallows in your hot chocolate while I was drinking from the dog bowl.

On top of that I was always stuck with cutting down my own switch for a butt whopping while Mom plucked the peacock for yours.

Yeh, you're not spoiled. You betcha, you bastard.

How's the inheritance playing out, by the way? These coffee cups kind of suck.

[ToeJam]

spoil me story?

[NAF1138]

Are you spoiled, Rysto?

Story won't spoil me either. I guess dead town members aren't allowed to be spoiled.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I'm now spoiled, but I asked as directed, via PM. Story does take his mod-prerogative-sweet time on occasion when sending responses. ;)

[NAF1138]

I'm now spoiled, but I asked as directed, via PM. Story does take his mod-prerogative-sweet time on occasion when sending responses. ;)

I had asked by PM too and he told me no! But he pm'd me a couple of minutes ago to spoil me, I am not sure what changed since I didn't look at the boards longer than it took me to see who was scum.

Now that I know I am back here to continue the good conversation that is going on in this thread.

[peekercpa]

Interseting conundrum. No one talks or else risk lynch fodder. But no one will LAL. With no other night kills (me thinks - since I am not spoiled) this phuquer could go on a Llllloooooonnnnnnnggggggg time. Hey, story wanna put me and blam back in for seconds. I'll go double or nada.

[sachertorte]

I'm limiting myself to skimming at this point. I think it will be better for my blood pressure.

I did see this though:

I'm still not convinced Mhaye is scum. I'm also not convinced he is town, but I feel that there is too big of a risk to lose such a power role if he is. I am strongly encouraging our Vig to attack him tonight - if he survives the day.

I think brewha's statement pretty much sums up why I'm so frustrated with these games. Brewha's statement should be a clear indication that brewha is scum. The problem is, this kind of risk-averse play is the Town's modus operandi so one really can't say for certain that brewha is playing a scum cop-out card. Town cannot lynch based on the "risk" of being wrong. That is absolute madness! Scum is going to false claim and they will false claim things that makes Town uneasy to lynch that player. Lynches must be determined based on evidence, not the potential power of the role-claim.

So the question is: is brewha scum or a nervous risk-averse Town? I'm leaning scum; though I'm basing this on one data point.

One avenue that no one seems to be considering (unless I skimmed over it) is the list of volunteers for claim vanilla Town for NAF to investigate. Are scum likely to volunteer for this or sit happily in the not-to-be investigated column? I say the latter for the most part, but I wonder if one scum claimed vanilla to "cover bases." I'm curious to know why scum waited as long as they did to take a shot at NAF. I wonder if the next person on NAF's "to investigate" list is scum. I don't even remember who that is, but someone should look at it.

I also think lynch the lurker should be a matter of policy as it makes the endgame more interesting. Town keeps lynching the active players which leaves no postings for the end of the game. Yawn.

[NAF1138]

One avenue that no one seems to be considering (unless I skimmed over it) is the list of volunteers for claim vanilla Town for NAF to investigate. Are scum likely to volunteer for this or sit happily in the not-to-be investigated column? I say the latter for the most part, but I wonder if one scum claimed vanilla to "cover bases." I'm curious to know why scum waited as long as they did to take a shot at NAF. I wonder if the next person on NAF's "to investigate" list is scum. I don't even remember who that is, but someone should look at it.

I think that, beyond that, people should be looking at the time period surrounding my claim. I cleared a lot of people in my mind because of how they reacted to my claim. I have been spoiled and I haven't gone back to look yet to be sure that the people I now know are scum did in fact give themselves away, but I strongly suspect that at least one of the did.


I also think lynch the lurker should be a matter of policy as it makes the endgame more interesting. Town keeps lynching the active players which leaves no postings for the end of the game. Yawn.

I agree. Town is far to obsessed with lynching scum every time. Sometimes you need to put town into a good positition by lynching dead weight.

[Hal Briston]

Anyone else suddenly in the mood to watch Murder By Death?

[Hal Briston]

And not to toot my own horn, but...

Anyway, there was a comment made yesterDay that smacks of Perfect Information Syndrome:Hal claimed Alpha Redshirt (I think).No, I didn't. I claimed "vanilla town". However, MHaye hit it right on the head (albeit it with a qualifier). And while I certainly have my doubts that scum know our Alpha/Beta status off the bat, I could see a scum investigator taking a peek at me just to see if had been lurking because I was a pro-town power role, trying to keep things under wraps. Good enough reason for me to:
Vote MHayeTOOT! TOOT! TOOT! :D

[NAF1138]

Did you see my grumble post in this thread? I had been calling for his lynch for DAYS! Where were you then?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Keep 'em comin, keep 'em comin...

[NAF1138]

So, now I kinda wish I hadn't been spoiled. If only so I could still talk to the few of you who aren't spoiled. I have questions about what everyone thinks town will do, but I don't know how to phrase them so I won't give anything I know away.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

That's kinda my problem too. That and this big fat magic bag that seems to have followed me in here from the game...

[NAF1138]

wait, you still have a magic bag? I need to read the spoiler boards better. Go over there and post, my curiosity is insatiable!

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Well how big and/or juicy it is may be subjective, but it feels heavy to me.

[storyteller0910]

Well, NAF, one thing to know is that the delay discussed earlier in this thread had to do with an action submitted by Cookies the Night she died.

[NAF1138]

Ah ha!

[sachertorte]

That's why I avoid being spoiled. Watching the games is no fun if you know the full set-up.

MHaye's roleclaim pretty much gave him away as scum. Why town didn't just lynch him then is yet another example of Town not thinking things through and instead following standard procedures -- a reaction I think Town really needs to address and change. If I recall, a few people stayed with MHaye, but too many (including confirmed Town) jumped ship.

MHaye's role as scum investigator puts things into a new light. I'd look at the Blaster Master lynch a bit more closely. It's clear now that MHaye knew Blaster Master was a Serial Killer. With both Hal Briston and Blaster Master up for lynch, MHaye didn't have to choose Blaster Master or anyone at all. However, by choosing Blaster Master, I think MHaye was going for the brownie points. He literally voted in the last minute.
If MHaye knew Blaster Master was SK then all scum knew this as well.

Kind of sucks for the SK's too that there are town investigators (several) and a scum investigator. That's quite a few investigators to avoid.

And Hal deserves his tooting. That was a good catch. (Yay pattern recognition!)

Also, it shows that MHaye investigated Hal Briston. That's a good sign for the Town, but with 5 (4 subtracting Hal Briston, 3 if we include Blaster Master) investigations by MHaye, it still seems scary for any remaining Town powerroles, especially since several vanillas have claimed. Roles with information should consider speaking up. Roles with nightpowers should of course stay silent.

And what happened to the guy Cookies talked about who can Day Kill the partially dead? Hello! there are two partially dead deadites that need killing.
(Or am I making stuff up in my head again?)

[Pleonast]

I'm still unspoiled.

Town is doing quite well at lynching Scum this game. Especially compared to the last. I think it's now time to for a mass claim.

[sachertorte]

I think it's now time to for a mass claim.

I'm not sure I agree. The existence of a scum investigator indicates to me that scum had something to find in the town populace. A Mass claim gives scum the information they were trying to collect via MHaye.

To support a mass claim, there needs to be a tangible benefit. I don't see one at this time. Each scum should be able to make up a plausible fake claim, so given a mass claim, what does the Town do next?
I suppose, given that MHaye's fake PM gave him away (at least on this board, if not the game itself), that a mass claim could reveal a scum, but that requires figuring out the false PM amongst what will probably be several weird pro-town PMs. We're talking about a group of people who wanted to lynch Cookies due to lack of capitalization! I don't trust them to discern "true PM" from "false PM." Nope, not one bit.

[storyteller0910]

And what happened to the guy Cookies talked about who can Day Kill the partially dead? Hello! there are two partially dead deadites that need killing.
(Or am I making stuff up in my head again?)

Yeah, Cookies! What happened to that guy? ;-)

---

And y'know, I'm really a little insulted that everyone seems to think I'd let analysis of whether or not I wrote a particular role PM break the game.

[NAF1138]

I would be a bit insulted too, but really you shouldn't be. Town has a serious case of dumb this game. They seem to snap themselves out of it periodically, but they are being shockingly silly about some things.

[sachertorte]

Yeah, I have no idea where your feelings of insult are coming from. The evidence clearly points to role PMs will do nothing to help the Town and most likely help Scum. Or are there new posts that I'm missing? Or is it in the part I skimmed?

[storyteller0910]

Well, everyone keeps talking about whether, for instance, MHaye's claimed role matches my writing style. My writing style, like everyone's, is distinctive, and I'd have to have been pretty dopey to give the Scum no option but to either claim vanilla or try to ape that style convincingly.

I'm not really insulted, by the way; just being goofy.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Yeah, Cookies! What happened to that guy? ;-)



:p

[sachertorte]

That would be the part I skimmed/skipped. What the hell is up with the analyzing style? If they just looked at the content of MHaye's claim they would see that it was bullshit. Why care about style?
They clearly should not mass claim. That would be a disaster, and I don't want to read it!

[Pleonast]

There's 15 players left. If there's 2 scum left, that gives 5 mislynches. 3 would mean 4. Extra Night kills will reduce that.

Given the 3 "confirmed" players, the unknown pool is 12 players divided 10:2 or 9:3. That means we have 5 (both 10-5 and 9-4==5) more Townies then mislynches. Once the number of remaining mislynches is greater than or equal to the number of remaining Townies in the unknown pool, the game becomes auto-win for Town, disregarding special powers.

At this point, the Town either needs to find Scum the old fashioned way by "playing Mafia", or they need to increase the number of confirmed by 5. A straight-up investigator could probably do that this late in the game, but I doubt such a role exists. However, a mass claim might lead to about that many confirmables in total, divvied up among several roles.

At this point, power roles are only as useful as they are confirmable. Any claim that can't be confirmed means that player stays in the unknown pool. Worst case, the Town would get no more confirmables and no fakey claims. That's no different than now. Otherwise, we reduce the unknown pool or get a good lynch candidate because of a poor claim.

I think a mass claim is helpful at this point. Of course, I also think the town has some good leads for traditional lynching. I think both JSexton and amrussell need to be lynched. So I'd be happy offing both of them and then doing the mass claim on Day Nine.

[ToeJam]

My writing style, like everyone's, is distinctive, and I'd have to have been pretty dopey to give the Scum no option but to either claim vanilla or try to ape that style convincingly.
:grins: Good man, Story, good man....
I was just reading a comment from someone in the night thread, and for a second though- "wait? Are they trying to lynch me?" Who else sits down from Day 1 and tries to write out fake Role PMs so that they can stick to it the entire game? That's the first thing to do if you've got an extra night in Rooshian Scum Lessons 101....

None of this 18 min hesitation to post up a role PM, I've got mine right here, and I've been following it the entire game! :D

Also, I love the references the Evil Dead Musical (The Candarian Demon Moose is a real character from the ED Universe, for those who may think Story is just really creative.... Hate the burst the bubbles and all, but yeah he's from the Musical).

[Hoopy Frood]

That's why I avoid being spoiled. Watching the games is no fun if you know the full set-up.

I wouldn't say it's "no fun". Possibly less fun.

But I do think one learns more by being spoiled than unspoiled. I've learned just as much, if not more, about playing mafia from observing people's actions when I know their motives and the subsequent discussions surrounding such actions by being spoiled in games as I have in the handful of games I've played so far.

But, as always, YMMV.

[NAF1138]

I would say different fun. I like both and will usually stay where there is more talk if given the choice, until I can't take the suspense of not knowing anymore.

[sachertorte]

they need to increase the number of confirmed by 5. A straight-up investigator could probably do that this late in the game, but I doubt such a role exists. However, a mass claim might lead to about that many confirmables in total, divvied up among several roles.

I see what you are saying. My opinion is that a mass claim can't create 5 confirmed. At least it shouldn't be able to. If town did mass claim and were able to create 5 confirmed then scum would rightfully cry "broken game." Or did you mean Town needs just two more in addition to the 3 already identified?

One thing that I would consider is that a mass claim would put scum in the position of killing powerroles. That is, sacrifice powers for longer living confirmed town (pedescribe, Hockey Monkey and Total Lost). The problem with this idea is I don't think there are any powerroles left. There is no doctor since DiggitCamara, NAF and Cookies all died. There is no Vigilante since a Vig should have been killing off unconfirmed players several Days ago. Any remaining investigators should simply claim, but with two dead already, I don't think there are anymore.
I don't think scum will be enticed to kill anyone except for those on the confirmed list.

[Pleonast]

I mean 5 in addition to the 3 already.

If there are no more power roles, then a mass claim can do no real harm to the Town. It will force Scum to publish fake claim PMs, with the associated hazards. If there are power roles remaining, even if they're not confirmable, they present the Scum with the option of letting them continue operating or killing them, neither of which hurts the Town substantially at this point.

Although there may not be strong benefits to the Town for mass claiming, there's certainly large risks to the Scum.

[Pleonast]

So, what's with the slowdown? Typical end-game ennui? One side thinks they're doomed and the other thinks it's in the bag? Since the moderator hasn't ended the game, I presume there's a path to victory for both sides.

I'm tempted to be spoiled, but I want to be able to honestly adjust my scum list in case things happen.

[storyteller0910]

So, what's with the slowdown? Typical end-game ennui? One side thinks they're doomed and the other thinks it's in the bag? Since the moderator hasn't ended the game, I presume there's a path to victory for both sides.

I'm tempted to be spoiled, but I want to be able to honestly adjust my scum list in case things happen.

Game's nowhere close to over on either side. I don't think it'd be possible for the game to end, realistically, until Day Ten or Eleven, and there's no reason on earth it couldn't go longer than that.

Which means my game design is flawed, but nothing to do about that now.

[sachertorte]

Pleonast, I'd be interested in knowing your reasoning for suspecting amrussel is scum. He's on the table for lynching today and I'd like to know the reasons. My personal feeling is amrussel is Town. My reasoning is not very specific and stems from a general feeling of helpfulness that I don't get from anyone else. Then again, over-helpfulness is the mark of scum, but I don't think that is the case with amrussel.

storyteller, the game is going to be ridiculously long because peekercpa and Blaster Master managed to get themselves killed on Day 2 and 4. It is clear you timed the game expecting 2-3 kills per night for the first several nights and only got... 1 night of multiple kills. Yikes! I'm not sure you can attribute that to game design as 'unlikely events' explain the result clearly. At least from my perspective, as I don't know the full set up. But I would think that putting 2 SK in the game, one would expect more death!

I think the slowdown is the combination of game ennui and dead talkative players. The living players have been playing the same role for 6 cycles. That's pretty much the point where interest starts to wane. Opinions have been made, and very little at this point will change them. Town has never really embraced putting people in the spotlight just to see what they do. Instead they will spend the next few days talking about amrussel and only amrussel. Maybe they will talk a bit about one other player, but most will not get discussed at all.
To some extent I don't blame them. Of the remaining players, I only have opinions on amrussel (Town), JSexton (Scum), brewha (Scum). I haven't been paying attention to much else. I don't think I could even name 5 other living (non-confirmed) players.

Game's nowhere close to over on either side. I don't think it'd be possible for the game to end, realistically, until Day Ten or Eleven, and there's no reason on earth it couldn't go longer than that.
Translation: There are 4 scum left.

[NAF1138]

I don't know if the following gives anything away or not. I don't name names or anything but just for safety:

I would say that the next 2 lynches will decide the winner though. If town lynches well once in the next 2 Days they can win (I think). If both of their next lynches are bad then, while they could still technically win, I don't think they will have enough momentum to pull it off from a psychological standpoint.

[Pleonast]

Well, as I commented with Cookies' list (MHaye, JSexton, amrussell, brewha), I think most of that list is scum.

JSexton would be my highest lynch candidate. His whole operating mode this game has been to attack others' arguments while not putting any forward himself. The way he and I were arguing and then his total back off, including his response to amrussell's accusations just reeks of scum trying to avoid the spot light.

But, amrussell didn't pursue him any more. And that is what makes me suspicious of both. I get the feeling of scum having little spats with each other and then avoid each other. It keeps the distance between the two. So if JSexton comes up scum, amrussell can point out how he worked to that end. Just as I thought NAF was playing anti-Town but had a pro-Town vibe, I think amrussell is playing pro-Town but gives me an anti-Town vibe.

brewha, I'm less sure about. I only have a hunch. The great thing about being dead (or a Vig ;) ) is not having to work out good cases. But I think these three players should be lynched in the order given here.

[Rysto]

I'm not sure you can attribute that to game design as 'unlikely events' explain the result clearly. At least from my perspective, as I don't know the full set up. But I would think that putting 2 SK in the game, one would expect more death!
The Mafia Gods seem to enjoy toying with mods who expect lots of kills. In Batman, it was theoretically possible for something like 12 of 25 players to be dead by Day 3. Instead, there were 0 -- zero! -- Night kills total after two Nights.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I think it would make great stick figure theater. A room full of people (some of them in pointed party hats. hey...it's my fantasy) strange gun-like objects fall from the ceiling into the hands of a few. These individuals curiously inspect their mystery objects, and end up managing to empty the clips while barely missing themselves and all of the other people in the room, whether they're looking down the barrel or holding it point blank to the head of their neighbor. Once the guns are empty, everyone forgets about them and starts talking. A loud growl is heard and suddenly the whole room is crushed under a large and frustrated foot.

[peekercpa]

Game's nowhere close to over on either side. I don't think it'd be possible for the game to end, realistically, until Day Ten or Eleven, and there's no reason on earth it couldn't go longer than that.

Which means my game design is flawed, but nothing to do about that now.

I don't buy that a bit. You had moi who flamed out for non game reasons. You had blam whose posts screamed lynch me. I hadn't even been following the game and although I had some inside information it was so apparent. Sheesh check offboard.

And now anyone who posts gets to take center stage.

Yeeps.

One scum poster and agitator. Two scum lurkers. If town can get the poster and then focus on which lurker starts posting they've got it bagged.

Don't think it will play out that way, however.

[ToeJam]

The Mafia Gods seem to enjoy toying with mods who expect lots of kills. In Batman, it was theoretically possible for something like 12 of 25 players to be dead by Day 3. Instead, there were 0 -- zero! -- Night kills total after two Nights.

I think it was around 14-16 could have died after 2 days, and like the game could have gone into LyLo by Day 3 or 4.... Yeah. That was Worst Case Scenario #1 actually....

But that totally backfired with all the no-kills, blocks, and the freezing of the game sorta abilities. It always seems to happen that the SK either ends up just lurking to the end, or he ends up dying really early so factoring him in to be a major killer didn't really work out in my favor that game. Though it was still amusing, that I had promised such a deadly and bloody game.... and No one died. Both Dio and I were surprised by that one- we never thought about that.

And there was Santo's I'll try to act townie by killing off Story the Doctor because he's acting like Batman Ploy that hilariously backfired on his hopes of gaining townie credit to act like a Vig....

That was a Hilariously great game to watch spoiled. :D

[Hoopy Frood]

blocks, and the freezing of the game

Heh, heh. You're welcome.

Ahh fond memories of a newbie. Nothing quite like being thrown into the deep end of the pool and being told to swim.

Although, I came to develop a dislike of townie blockers at the end of that game. Fortunately, my blind shooting only hurt Town once. (And my mass freeze prevented Rysto from becoming PFK, which really would have handed the game to scum or possibly even him as he would have changed alignments to PFK. It's always better to be lucky than good.)

Oh, and it's not your fault the game will last long, Story. As others have said, one kill from two SK's is a fluke.

[NAF1138]

Why don't we do full game lynch analysis anymore? I haven't done one, so I don't know if it's actually worthwhile but, why not do a lynch analysis like (I think it was) Natlaw's analysis of the Hal Briston lynch for every lynch and then check to see the common threads. It might not net every scum, but I strongly suspect that at least one of the scum will show up multiple times in medium/high profile positions.

I think Pleo and BlaM used to do these regularly. Is the reason we have stopped doing them because Pleo and Blam are now getting killed early when they aren't scum?

[sachertorte]

I've never been one to put a whole lot of weight into these vote analyses. If anything, it is easier for scum to vote for scum since they can judge whether or not that scum is going down or not. The only time such analysis has meaning is when there is a close vote and Town knows that one was scum and one was Town. MHaye is the only instance where that has happened in this game, and that situation is complicated by his role-claim.

Furthermore, if I recall correctly, Pleonast used his vote analysis to justify his votes while being scum. Conveniently, his analysis only pointed to fellow scum once. The votes themselves are not a good basis to judge. The circumstances and tone of the voter are much more important. (Words, not action!)

Also, with so many players not voting, vote analysis would be pretty pointless.

[Pleonast]

Well, I was killed early this game and I don't know the reason yet, being unspoiled, but in the previous game, SDMB Mafia, I tried doing an analysis, but it wasn't working too well. For two reasons, I think: works best when there's 5+ plus Days to look at and when there's Scum as well as Town lynches to look at. This game at this point would seemingly be perfect for it.

And even if no one wants to do a computation like I do, simply listing the final vote counts colored by known alignments would help substantially. Even non-analytic players can look at colored counts for patterns.

I wonder why no one looks at who recently deceased Townies were going after. Do Scum no longer kill players who are on the right track? Smart Scum will avoid obvious things like that, but it must be terribly tempting to off a player who's made a good case against a Scum who's otherwise looking clean.

[Pleonast]

To defend my analysis, it's simply a formalization of looking for patterns in the votes. It's only as good as the player looking for patterns. When I was Scum, I was intentionally warping the results by implicitly including my own (false) Towniness.

Even if you don't like the numbers I put in it, I think you'll agree the colored lists are at least somewhat helpful.

[NAF1138]

To defend my analysis, it's simply a formalization of looking for patterns in the votes. It's only as good as the player looking for patterns. When I was Scum, I was intentionally warping the results by implicitly including my own (false) Towniness.

Even if you don't like the numbers I put in it, I think you'll agree the colored lists are at least somewhat helpful.

I agree, and I also agree that now is the time that they would be of the most use. 2 scum lynches, with a third almost lynch of scum. That's three strong data lynches out of 6 finished Days and a whole lot of players who's alignment is now known.

Like I said, I don't know if it would actually net anything, but I suspect it would pin at least one scum to the mat and be a decent data point against any other scum that might be out there.

[sachertorte]

I'm changing my mind on brewha. I now think both brewha and amrussel are Town.

[NAF1138]

Interesting, why the change?

[peekercpa]

I kind of use the whole vote analysis as the point tipper.

If someone has been posting oddly then their votes can tip my conclusion one way or another.

But as a sole or main tool, not so much.

Typically I wait for the worm in the bottle to speak.

[ToeJam]

I loved doing Vote Analysis, at the start of every day I'd make sure to compile the vote Data and the information and everything- color coding scum/townies, and giving my thoughts.

Only thing is- I did that when I was Town AND when I was scum. Sure, it might incriminate some scum, but it'd get me townie cred always. And since I was the guy doing the Vote Analysis, I ALWAYS knew how the votes turned out, and could adjust my votes for the future....

Basically the Vote Analysis is a great tool if used by Town. When used by competent scum, it makes it so that scum rarely gets caught, and when used by greedy scum, it can make sure that NO Scum get caught....

I personally just like earning townie cred for myself regardless of what role I play- so I don't mind bussing a few scum if I must.... But yeah, whoever does that analysis always comes out smelling like roses.

[Pleonast]

Exactly the reason more players should do the voting lists. If several players are posting their voting analyses, it's that much harder for the scummy one to manipulate the conclusions.

[ShadowFacts]

To defend my analysis, it's simply a formalization of looking for patterns in the votes. It's only as good as the player looking for patterns. When I was Scum, I was intentionally warping the results by implicitly including my own (false) Towniness.

Even if you don't like the numbers I put in it, I think you'll agree the colored lists are at least somewhat helpful.

No offense intended, but I don't like your vote analysis method, Pleo. I believe that it doesn't work well because you weight your calculations with your own assumptions. If your assumptions are wrong, your analysis will be wrong. And if you are truly Town with as little knowledge as Town normally has, I believe your assumptions will always be at least partly wrong. (Remember when you died in SDMB Mafia, I was your #1 suspect, but I was Town. The rest of your analysis in that game was equally off the mark, IIRC). And if your assumptions are scummy, your analysis will be scummy, as we've seen. :D

That said, I do think colored vote lists and vote analysis can be extremely useful tools, and I use them when I play to try to point me in the right directions. I don't think such analyses can be definitive, but they can be indicative, and help start discussion on certain players and/or shore up an already existing case against a suspect.

[sachertorte]

With the caveat that I'm not paying very close attention anymore, I changed my mind on brewha based on amrussell's defense from and attack on brewha's case against amrussell. amrussell pointed out valid points of why brewha's case is weak. I agree on the weakness, but I don't attribute weakness to scum-ness. I think it more likely for Town to cling to erroneous reasoning and a weak case than for scum to fabricate a weak case. I also must admit that I don't know brewha well enough yet to be sure, and I can't remember the previous reasons why I was thinking brewha was scum.

[Pleonast]

No offense intended, but I don't like your vote analysis method, Pleo. I believe that it doesn't work well because you weight your calculations with your own assumptions. If your assumptions are wrong, your analysis will be wrong. And if you are truly Town with as little knowledge as Town normally has, I believe your assumptions will always be at least partly wrong.No offense taken. But what do you expect a Townie to do? Any approach taken by a Townie is prone to error. My method has the benefit of making my assumptions explicit. I don't expect others to vote based on my analysis, but instead to understand exactly why I'm voting the way I am. I think that's the best policy for Townies, in general--clear and open thinking.

And I'll note in the last game, no Townie was successfully catching Scum, so you can hardly hold that against my method. :)

[peekercpa]

Ahhh. So pede is something else. If that is correct all else makes sense.

The worm be talkin'.

[Idle Thoughts]

New game starting up on my offboard site. Sign ups here: http://psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=wat&action=display&thread=722

Most all of the players there (for anyone here who has not yet registered there) are people who play here.

[Idle Thoughts]

I loved doing Vote Analysis, at the start of every day I'd make sure to compile the vote Data and the information and everything- color coding scum/townies, and giving my thoughts.

Only thing is- I did that when I was Town AND when I was scum. Sure, it might incriminate some scum, but it'd get me townie cred always. And since I was the guy doing the Vote Analysis, I ALWAYS knew how the votes turned out, and could adjust my votes for the future....

Basically the Vote Analysis is a great tool if used by Town. When used by competent scum, it makes it so that scum rarely gets caught, and when used by greedy scum, it can make sure that NO Scum get caught....

I personally just like earning townie cred for myself regardless of what role I play- so I don't mind bussing a few scum if I must.... But yeah, whoever does that analysis always comes out smelling like roses.


OY, you never reply to your PMs over there. I haven't seen you on in about a month. :p I tried telling Boozahol that my game was ending soon a week or two in advance but he didn't see it, apparently.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Is that the second time that special_ed has misremembered me taking my vote off of Mhaye (which I didn't do) despite me pointing out his mistake the first time?

[ToeJam]

Sorry, Idle, you're best off PMing me in here, because I tend to frequent the Dope a bit more than those boards. =(

Hopefully, I'll have things ready for the next game after this one then....

[ToeJam]

Please Jsexton do what I hope you're doing....

The scum have the ability to talk to the town from beyond the grave, why they haven't been doing that this entire game has been perplexing to me....

Then again, I know that sometimes JSexton likes to play a game w/o looking at his alignment at all. I hope he didn't do that for this game (because though that play is great, it sucks as well if you're a power role or such because you're putting your team at a disadvantage by not using it).

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Have fun in limbo, Jsexton. :D

[sachertorte]

I agree with amrussell, I think JSexton is full of it.
1) It makes little sense to do what he said he did, though he has claimed to have done the same thing in the past
2) His behavior was particularly scummy. I think we all picked up on it by Day 3.
3) I don't think storyteller would comply with JSexton's request, at least not knowingly.

[Blaster Master]

Why don't we do full game lynch analysis anymore? I haven't done one, so I don't know if it's actually worthwhile but, why not do a lynch analysis like (I think it was) Natlaw's analysis of the Hal Briston lynch for every lynch and then check to see the common threads. It might not net every scum, but I strongly suspect that at least one of the scum will show up multiple times in medium/high profile positions.

I think Pleo and BlaM used to do these regularly. Is the reason we have stopped doing them because Pleo and Blam are now getting killed early when they aren't scum?

They still get done sometimes, but in general, yes; they probably don't get the attention they use to because we die early and it's the sort of thing that us silly number crunchers like to do, so not a whole lot of other people are interested in doing it. The last time I remember doing it was in the Simpletown game (I think), and I do think it ended up being pretty useful in that game. I think I've been in at least four games since then, and the closest we got in any of those games was the SDMB game, but the town was focused (with some scum help) on the JSexton lynch, Pleo tried and, because I wanted to obfuscate matters, argued with him over it to muddle it up and keep other people from taking interest in it.

Who knows, maybe I'll do it again in the next game I'm in. Who knows?

[Rysto]

I know that JSexton has said that he's played Day 1 without knowing who his scum teammates were. I think that an analysis of JSexton will point to another scum and he knows it, so he's trying to WIFOM the town into not looking at an analysis.

Town should never, ever listen to confirmed non-Town players who still have a chance at winning.

[Blaster Master]

I agree with amrussell, I think JSexton is full of it.
1) It makes little sense to do what he said he did, though he has claimed to have done the same thing in the past
2) His behavior was particularly scummy. I think we all picked up on it by Day 3.
3) I don't think storyteller would comply with JSexton's request, at least not knowingly.

I agree, and I think he's full of it too.

1) It sounds like a nice mental experiment, but there's just too much that can go wrong. What if you've actually got some special powers? If you don't know your alignment you can't make special use of them. Obviously, even if you're scum, you want to look townie, but you also don't want to catch something really scummy, turn in half your teammates, then find out later that you screwed up. It might be worth avoiding reading your PM for the first Day, but much beyond that is bad. FWIW, I have done games where I avoid learning the identities of my scum mates for the first Day. In fact, one thing I found useful in the SDMB game was that we didn't use our names as logins to the scum board, so I was much more easily able to mentally disassociate myself with who else was scum.

2) I think his behavior was obnoxiously scummy. That said, if he is telling the truth, it could be attributed to him not knowing and thus approaching the game from more of a PFK perspective. As such, regardless of whether he was town or scum, he'd know it would be helpeful to his team to eliminate PFKs. However, at the same time, by not having that information, and by playing for what's best for both, it inherently comes out looking anti-town and has the same result.

3) He might, but I don't think he would. Certainly, as a mod, I wouldn't. You're welcome to not read the PM I sent you, or to not read certain parts of it, but it doesn't seem equitable to filter out parts of a PM for a player.

I think he's just saying it to mess with the town and keep them from looking closer at his posts.

Edit: Looks like someone agrees with me.

[sachertorte]

I agree with the heat applied to Millit the Frail. Her reaction to JSexton's "I didn't know I was scum" claim seems rather scummy to me. She seems to eager to be "confused" about JSexton's role in the game and what to do with his suspicions (toward amrussell).
That plus AH's point about Millit thanking JSexton for "playing for us." Is a remarkably weird statement to come from a Townie.

I'd be fine with a Millit lynching though there isn't much to go on.

[NAF1138]

I admire JSextons claim. It's gutsy in a Ro0shy sort of way, and you have to admire that. It is just off the wall enough to maybe take in a townsperson or two and cause enough of a distraction to keep even the ones who think he is full of it from looking too closely at anything else he has done.

He's clearly full of it, but I don't know that it matters.

[Blaster Master]

I admire JSextons claim. It's gutsy in a Ro0shy sort of way, and you have to admire that. It is just off the wall enough to maybe take in a townsperson or two and cause enough of a distraction to keep even the ones who think he is full of it from looking too closely at anything else he has done.

He's clearly full of it, but I don't know that it matters.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think it's a fine claim, and I don't blame him at all for making it. It would be like a scum being nailed on the first day, knowing he's going down not taking the opportunity to make a claim of some kind to either see if he can weasel out or get some information about a power role.

And you're right, it really doesn't matter. Any time spent discussing a claim like that after a scum is lynched is good for them. Trying to figure out whether a caught scum is telling the truth is purely WIFOM. At best, it keeps them from looking to closely at him; at worst, it acts as a bit of a distraction.

[Pleonast]

Finally caught up. Yes, they finally lynched JSexton!

As a Mafia player, I love his after-death gambit. Well played! :cool: As a Townie with a stake in the game, I can't believe anyone is even responding to him. He has been mod-confirmed as playing against you--don't listen to anything he says. :smack:

I don't believe for a second that the moderator would comply with a request for self-censorship. That would terribly upset the balance of the game, unless the set up explicitly allowed for unknowing Scum. A Mafia game can't function if the Scum don't even know each other.

[sachertorte]

I'm back. Sorry for missing the end of the Day.

As far as the mostly dead go I think it was noted the first time it happened (not going to look it up right now) that they're too dead to lynch a second time, and we may have lost our only tool of killing them for good (i.e. Cookies). But we should still be able to win if we lynch all of the scum, because by then they wouldn't be able to vote anyway.

I'm bothered by this. I suppose it is possible that dotchan concluded that Cookies was the one to remove partially dead players, but prior to storyteller's post in this forbidden thread, I was under the impression that the killer of partly dead was still in the game and not Cookies (based on the way Cookies brought up the information). I also think that scum knew that "Good Ash" could remove the partially dead (hence the dead Cookies).

It's a slim point but I would say this makes dotchan look like scum.

Wow, there really isn't much of anything to base suspicions on at this point is there? Day Seven was less than two pages!

[sachertorte]

Damnit! I was doing so well too.

[NAF1138]

At least you weren't wrong for very long.

[storyteller0910]

I am really surprised at the Scum action this past Night. Killing dotchan was a mistake, it seems to me, versus simply making the argument that hey, Blaster Master was a serial killer and maybe we shouldn't clear anyone on his word alone.

[NAF1138]

I'm with you. I am a bit baffled by the scums action the last couple of Nights actually.

[sachertorte]

Uh... yeah! me too! ;)

I have several issues to sort out.
One is the back-up Doc claim which needs more scrutiny. Back-up Doc implies Doc which implies someone was able to protect NAF, DiggitCamara and Cookies -- but didn't. WTH?

Second is the no kill night on Night Six. This of course implies the existence of a Doc. I don't know. Something doesn't add up.

I kind of think that scum decided to no kill so that someone could claim Doc since they've concluded that there is no doc? Maybe? Sort of? Possibly?
I know, ridiculous. But I can't explain how there must be NO Doc on nights 1-5 and suddenly a Doc for Night 6, and conveniently a backup-Doc roleclaim on Day 7.

Oh, just open up the claimed back-up Doc and let me see the insides. That will sort things out, maybe, possibly...

[NAF1138]

See, right now is where I wish you knew what I know Sach.

[Rysto]

Second is the no kill night on Night Six. This of course implies the existence of a Doc. I don't know. Something doesn't add up.
Frankly, a game with 2 cops, a doctor and a backup sounds ridiculously in favour of Town to me. My guess is that there's a roleblocker out there.

[sachertorte]

New theory:
Doc has a restriction similar to what the backup-doc has posted. The Doc can only protect someone who voted for him. It's possible that this explains why NAF, DiggitCamara, and Cookies were left unprotected since maybe they never voted for the Doc.

The claimed backup-doc could also be the actual Doc.

[sachertorte]

Frankly, a game with 2 cops, a doctor and a backup sounds ridiculously in favour of Town to me. My guess is that there's a roleblocker out there.

Or this.

[Blaster Master]

Uh... yeah! me too! ;)

I have several issues to sort out.
One is the back-up Doc claim which needs more scrutiny. Back-up Doc implies Doc which implies someone was able to protect NAF, DiggitCamara and Cookies -- but didn't. WTH?

Second is the no kill night on Night Six. This of course implies the existence of a Doc. I don't know. Something doesn't add up.

I kind of think that scum decided to no kill so that someone could claim Doc since they've concluded that there is no doc? Maybe? Sort of? Possibly?
I know, ridiculous. But I can't explain how there must be NO Doc on nights 1-5 and suddenly a Doc for Night 6, and conveniently a backup-Doc roleclaim on Day 7.

Oh, just open up the claimed back-up Doc and let me see the insides. That will sort things out, maybe, possibly...

Of course, I know the answer as to whether his claim is truthful or not, so I won't just say what it is but, as is probably clear from your lack of a conclusion, or lack thereof, some of your assumptions are wrong.

Now, I don't know exactly what the scum did that resulted in a no-kill, since I didn't bother to ask, but no-killing to attempt to imply a Doctor just doesn't make sense. Beside the fact that the scum already tried a Doctor-esque role and failed, why would they throw more resources (a Night kill and a body to claim) at it to try to get it to work again? I haven't seen a situation yet where I think a no-kill is a good move strategically, and I certainly wouldn't think this is one of them

Either way, lynching someone because of their claim just seems silly. Besides that I already knew MHaye was scum, his role PM was convincing enough, but it didn't fit the circumstances very well. Would the scum then, with no evidence for a Doctor, following a failed Doctor claim, then have someone come out and claim backup doctor with, what I would say, is probably a slightly less convincing PM and absolutely no backup evidence?

IOW, even though there's no evidence to backup his claim as a backup doc, there's also no compelling reason to believe the scum would throw out a claim like that. I think it's a wash.

Lynch him if you think he's scum, but don't lynch him because you think his claim is fishy; maybe use it as a tie-breaker, but not as evidence for his lynch, at least without being linked to other things.

On Preview: Yeah NAF, too bad he doesn't know; but we can taunt with our perfect knowledge. :cool: I just hope I didn't give anything away.

[NAF1138]

I almost mentioned something about his basic assumptions but figured that would be too helpfull. But sach and Rysto both I think have made one or two assumptions (different assumptions) that are incorrect.

[dotchan]

Yay, my first non-lynch related death! :D

I was *this* close to unvoting both macey (because I thought "there's no way even a newbie scum could be THAT stupid, she'd have her scumbuddies screaming at her to shut up and back off from her scummy position posthaste") AND Blaster Master (because I believed his claim). I had a feeling I shouldn't have unvoted MHaye, either, because the claim did sound fishy, but I talked myself out of it. :smack:

When Natlaw came out vehemently opposing my mass-claim suggestion, my first reaction was "this guy is either a power role or scum". Wonder how accurate my scumdar is this time...

[Blaster Master]

Yay, my first non-lynch related death! :D

I was *this* close to unvoting both macey (because I thought "there's no way even a newbie scum could be THAT stupid, she'd have her scumbuddies screaming at her to shut up and back off from her scummy position posthaste") AND Blaster Master (because I believed his claim). I had a feeling I shouldn't have unvoted MHaye, either, because the claim did sound fishy, but I talked myself out of it. :smack:

At least someone bought my claim. Too bad you didn't, cause the town probably would have had this game in the books by now. :(

[Pleonast]

Is it kosher for dotchan to be posting here as well as the actual game thread?

[Hoopy Frood]

Natlaw:

If we have another block (and only one), we start Day Twelve at LyLo with four players instead of three, giving a bigger chance to lynch town.
Scum would count for 1 + 5x.02, so if town mislynches and scum successfully Night kills, it is 2-2 and a scum win.
So in that case there needs to be another block (can be Night Twelve) or there need to be only four mostly dead remaining after Night Twelve. That means only three one-fifth alive at the start of Night Twelve, in case scum kills an Alpha the following Night. But if Cookies was the killer, that might not happen.

Umm...rather than worry about block/no-block, why not just have a no-lynch in this case? Rather than waste an pro-town night-action opportunity, forgo a lynch if the night-action doesn't work as expected.

[dotchan]

Is it kosher for dotchan to be posting here as well as the actual game thread?

I'm not spoiled, so I don't see why not.

[Pleonast]

It's unfair to the Scum if dead Townies and spectators can give advice to the Town, filtered through a semi-alive (and confirmed Town) player.

[CatInASuit]

Sorry dotchan, but from the opening post.

This will be for non-spoilered discussion of the game by anyone and everyone, APART FROM THE PLAYERS STILL PLAYING.

If you are still playing, you don't get to join us.


As you are not yet dead, this means you too. :)

[sachertorte]

I noticed that the new off board game has the same end time as this game so I looked to see how much overlap there is.

To my surprise I noticed that Nanook of the North Shore is in both games. Nanook has been super-lurker in this game! If he is so busy that he can't put in a decent amount of play into this game, I'm confused as to why he signed up for another game on the off-board.

Nanook should be lynched. Though I really hope he isn't hiding scum, because that is just sucky. But I can't piece together how he could post so little here (under the guise of being busy) and sign up for another game. Meta-game is sorta bad, but really, he should be killed for his lack of participation anyway.

[ToeJam]

Honestly? Who kills DOTCHAN? I'm VERY disappointed in the Scum's Night actions....

If you can't convince the Town to lynch her, you're not doing a very good job as scum at ALL....

[NAF1138]

On an unrelated note, Pede's game offsite needs a sub. If anyone is interested.

[Pleonast]

Wow! This is some kind of awesome lynch record going on. How many living Deadites can be left? Or are we left with eliminating the mostly dead?

[storyteller0910]

The Town is absolutely cleaning house in this game so far. What Scum May Remain have a few tiny tricks that they can still use, but they have a very long row to hoe.

[Hal Briston]

Wow...I did not buy into Millit being scum...not one little bit. Guess it's a good thing I'm dead, huh? :)

[sachertorte]

Yes. Town really has done well in this game. The only mislynches were Chucara and Hal Briston. That's the 4th Deadite right? So Town has lynched 2 SK, 4 Deadite, and 2 Town.
The main issue Town will have now is lack of record on many of the remaining players. Nanook is one off the top of my head. Millit was a good choice by Town based on scant information, but there are too many blank faces. I don't even know who is left in the game. I still think amrussell and brewha are Town, but other than that and the confirmed, I don't have any feelings.

[storyteller0910]

Actually, it's five Deadites down (bufftabby was killed Night One).

[ShadowFacts]

I haven't been paying too much attention to the game recently, but was just skimming to see what's been happening. I've never seen Town do so well. Scum must be freakin' pissed off!

Meanwhile, this post really jumped out at me:
No, didn't hit a nerve. Just did a poor job of explaining yourself. I like this one better.

And, what exactly are you sorry about? Sorry that I should be lynched? That's a pretty messed up thing to say. If you are town and I am scum. You shouldn't be sorry. If you are town and you think I'm scum, you shouldn't be sorry.

But, if you are scum and you know I am town - and you know I shouldn't be lynched - then I see the reason for your apology.

That is some seriously weak sauce right there.

[sachertorte]

I'm not sure I agree. Being overly polite is a valid indicator of scum in my mind.

[ToeJam]

Good, I'm glad she was scum. I hate when people buy into the"I'm sorry guys, I guess I'm not good at this game. But I'll try to help out still!" as a non-scummy response.
Sure, Townies may not get all emotional, but sometimes they DO (Idle thoughts anyone?), you can't just say that because someone acts like a defeatist at the gallows that they're automatically not as scummy as before....

If I could get away with lines like that, I TOTALLY would. "I guess I suck at this game guys.... Oh well, lynch me if you must. I'll try to do better the next game, and I'm sorry guys. Go town!"

Lynch the bastards and THEN apologize for killing a townie if it happens.

[CatInASuit]

For those with more experience with me, I am looking for a bit of help balancing a game. Please drop me a PM if you are interested.

Thanks. :)

[storyteller0910]

Now, on today's episode: can pedescribe snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by propagating a pointless and confusing lie?

[sachertorte]

Us unspoiled types don't know that pedescribe is lying about anything, but
1) As a mason, his actions would need to be both a lie and demonstrably anti-Town for him to be lynched for it.
2) Assuming that the lie is the existence of a 4th Mason, my guess is pedescribe is trying to get scum to kill from the unconfirmed pool. Pointless, but motivated.

I'm bummed that I just got killed in the off-board game. That's the second time in a row I got killed on Night One (presumably by scum). I'm beginning to see a trend.

[Pleonast]

I've been killed early my last two games, too. I don't mind when if I'm vanilla, but it's a nuisance when I have plans. I guess killing off experienced players is a valid tactic by scum. If they don't have a power-role slip to go on, might as well eliminate the "better" players.

Tsk, tsk, story, spoiling your own unspoiled thread. :) I had to go back to the Mason board to see WTH ped thinks he's doing.

If I had publicly confirmed ped, the Town would be stupid to lynch the Masons. I am mod-confirmed as "pro-Town Mason". You have to trust the moderator. But, I never explicitly confirmed ped or Hockey. The Town doesn't really know they're pro-Town Masons. Still, it would be risky to lynch uncountered-claimed Masons, even if they do something anti-Town.

[Blaster Master]

I've been killed early my last two games, too. I don't mind when if I'm vanilla, but it's a nuisance when I have plans. I guess killing off experienced players is a valid tactic by scum. If they don't have a power-role slip to go on, might as well eliminate the "better" players.

Using experience as a judgment for determining who should and should not be lynched is always a double edged sword. I think the most obvious examples of this, though it is a little dated, are from Mafia 2 and the off-board Pirate game. In M2, sturmhauke (spelling?) wasn't killed because the town was suspicious of him for not having been killed because, if he was town and a good player, the scum should have killed him; the scum did a great job of just sitting back and letting the town lynch one of it's best players. In the Pirate game, storyteller was killed early, but soon afterward, the scum decided that they couldn't really afford to kill anymore of the experienced players because they needed them as cover and, as a result, they decided they couldn't kill me. The problem with that was, I wasn't going to be lynched anytime soon, and I was riding the ass of the very person they were leaving me alive to protect.

So, I think it might be valid to kill an experienced player very early in the game, but only if you don't have any good reads. A reasonable chance at killing the Doctor or Detective or some other role is still ultimately better than eliminating an experienced player and, chances are, some power role will either slip or end up having to claim.

Even more interestingly, I think leaving experienced players alive can be a benefit to scum. Often, experienced player end up taking a leadership role in the town, and if they start leading the town in bad directions, it'll result in bad lynches and potentially a lynch of that experienced player.

I do generally prefer to kill more experienced players early as scum, but that's more because I hate to see new players eager to get involved in a game and then quickly get knocked out. It makes it unlikely that they'll play again because they didn't enjoy themselves and, as a result, leads to less interesting games because I've played with most of the experienced players multiple times.

[ToeJam]

I love peds.

He reminds me of someone.... :D
A less competent version of that someone, but JUST as entertaining.

[sachertorte]

I'm leaning towards Zeriel as scum. Mainly for his rabid defense of pedescribe. A Townie would have at least a hint of doubt about what is going on. Zeriel seems far too sure that pedescribe is A-Okay.

[sachertorte]

I'm confused. I get that scum, for some strange reason, killed Natlaw. But how does that relate to pedescribe's "fourth mason" gambit? I got that pedescribe was thinking what he was thinking and I even get that he thinks his play worked. What I don't get is why other people think his play worked. It shouldn't have worked! Why would scum hunt for some unknown mason in the unconfirmed pool and risk hitting a non-mason in the process when they can just as easily take out pedescribe or Hockey Monkey? Why does no one see this?

I guess it doesn't really matter. Though Scum's play really has me confused. The only thing I can think of is that scum are really really scared of the Doctor and are killing unconfirmed to make sure the kill goes through or are trying to set up Total Lost for lynching.

The mind boggles.


Also, I've forgotten why I thought brewha was Town.

[NAF1138]

I'm confused. I get that scum, for some strange reason, killed Natlaw. But how does that relate to pedescribe's "fourth mason" gambit? I got that pedescribe was thinking what he was thinking and I even get that he thinks his play worked. What I don't get is why other people think his play worked. It shouldn't have worked! Why would scum hunt for some unknown mason in the unconfirmed pool and risk hitting a non-mason in the process when they can just as easily take out pedescribe or Hockey Monkey? Why does no one see this?

I guess it doesn't really matter. Though Scum's play really has me confused. The only thing I can think of is that scum are really really scared of the Doctor and are killing unconfirmed to make sure the kill goes through or are trying to set up Total Lost for lynching.

The mind boggles.


Also, I've forgotten why I thought brewha was Town.

It did work, but you are right it shouldn't have. On the spoiler board I did a calculation of what scum needed to do to keep from auto losing by numbers, or rather what scum couldn't let happen. Last Night was one of 2 things that couldn't be allowed to happen and unfortunatly scum did it to themselves.

[NAF1138]

It's way too late for a mass claim. What are they thinking wasting time with that crap. A mass claim does more for the scum than it does for town when there is only one scum left and they have to know that the game didn't start with 7 scum.

Gah!

[Blaster Master]

Oh, c'mon NAF, you have to admit it's hilarious to watch both sides being silly. It's like watching a comedy of errors, except somehow the town errors haven't really hurt them and the scum errors have.

[NAF1138]

I know. It's sad becauase town has made far more mistakes than scum, but they have made them at times when scum couldn't capitalize on them. Town has also made just enough right moves and scum have been bitten by every single little thing they have done wrong.

It's bad luck for the scum (except for last Night, I don't know what that was about) more than anything. But honestly, a mass claim could give the win away for town since it takes away the last sure fire method by which the scum can shoot themselves in the foot.

[sachertorte]

Well, since Town pretty much knows that there is only one scum left, they are left in a rather strange situation. It's like Day One again, except usually on Day One everyone can be content knowing that if X, Y, and Z are silent, it doesn't really matter because even if one or two of them are scum, there are other scum to find.

In this case, they have so many blank pages and they KNOW only one could possibly be scum, so what to do? Really, in this case there is no optimal course of action. They could lynch Nanook, Special Ed, or someone else who as been too quiet and win if one of those happen to be scum and lose if they happen to be all town. At this point it is down to luck.
Or they can lynch based on postings and maybe win, or maybe lose if the one scum left hasn't been posting. Again luck.
I don't really see how Town can proceed. It might be best to ask pedescribe or Hockey Monkey to just randomly pick an Unknown and lynch that one. That's no less 'optimal' than any other plan, in my opinion.

And from my perspective, I think Town as a whole has done a very good job, especially in lynching. The only lynch I would point to as a mistake was the Chucara lynch, because it was clear that a power role was Day-investigating her. (Maybe the Hal lynch too, but only because MHaye was clearly scum at the time. I look at that as simply ordering since I'm convinced Hal would have been lynched next anyway)

Other than that, all town mistakes must have been night actions, which I'm not "in the know" except it looks like Cookies wasn't killing the partial dead and probably should have been.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I know. It's sad becauase town has made far more mistakes than scum, but they have made them at times when scum couldn't capitalize on them. Town has also made just enough right moves and scum have been bitten by every single little thing they have done wrong.

It's bad luck for the scum (except for last Night, I don't know what that was about) more than anything. But honestly, a mass claim could give the win away for town since it takes away the last sure fire method by which the scum can shoot themselves in the foot.

I can think of one way that the scum got extremely lucky.

[Blaster Master]

And from my perspective, I think Town as a whole has done a very good job, especially in lynching. The only lynch I would point to as a mistake was the Chucara lynch, because it was clear that a power role was Day-investigating her. (Maybe the Hal lynch too, but only because MHaye was clearly scum at the time. I look at that as simply ordering since I'm convinced Hal would have been lynched next anyway)

Let's not forget my lynch either, and not it's not just because I'm bitter; I suppose it's technically not a mislynch, but it certainly wasn't optimal. I'd like to say a little more about it, but I already said most of it, and the part I didn't say, while I wish I had taken the time to say for the sake of ego inflation, I can't now because it would effectively be a spoil, and that's not to mention all of the other stuff I would have done.

Other than that, all town mistakes must have been night actions, which I'm not "in the know" except it looks like Cookies wasn't killing the partial dead and probably should have been.

Since storyteller alluded to it, one of the pro-town power roles played very poorly and the game easily could have been over by now if those actions had been different. And let's also not forget the play of the masons which has been... questionable.

[Natlaw]

Hi, to all spectators :)

I haven't read this thread yet, but was wondering if it contains spoilers for Evil Dead? Not sure yet I want to be spoiled ;). Also if there are spoilers about pedescribes Super!Smash!Bros! game a warning please.

Anyway, my current take on the game:
vote pedescribe
If Pleonast hadn't implicitly confirmed him, I so wanted to lynch him!
I seriously considered he has a private win condition to vote for everyone at least once :D. I do think his gambit that got me killed was not entirely bad, even if scum had gotten the doctor (since he still unclaimed and with many town alive the chance for a successful protect is not that big. Best to mostly self protect at this point I guess.

brewha, Rapier42, special ed
If one of these is the last scum, town wins.

Nanook of the North Shore, Zeriel
Big trouble if either of them is scum, though Nanook keeps pinging be with his low post count and everyone of them seems to contain a smudge. Scum not voting him of Day Six makes it possible, unless brewha is scum, meaning there would have been three scum voting a town Nanook.

amrussell
The most certain town in my eyes (I had him as fourth mason, irrationally of his remark 'I'm Jacks lack of surprise' on pedes claim Day one.
If he is scum though, scum win but I think it unlikely, unless the JSexton/amrussell argument was a setup.

Total Lost
I'll have to trust Cookies here and think Total Lost is the doctor and possibly triggered Cookies powers (after a protect?).
Though I'll have to admit I almost convinced myself Cookies was a Godfather with those little white lies...

I think vanilla was the perfect role for my first game, didn't have to worry about screwing up too much with powers :p.

Other moments in the game:
peekercpa, did you really quit because of the lurkers or because you where two points ahead?

When I posted I had a different win condition (mine also mentioned 'and there is no chance of an exclusive win for any third-party'), I panicked a bit, even reported my post to get a moderator to edit that part out :smack:. I was afraid it would spoil the game, since any other Beta got a free 'he is beta too' confirmed by Story.

Blaster Master was my most sure lynch, especially after the 'Story told me I had bad luck' part. If his initial post hadn't mentioned he needed to lurk for his role and his reaction to the magic bagging had been more calm, it would have been different.

MHayes claim on the other hand I did trust (as far as you can trust things besides death and taxes in Mafia), in hindsight his role was too powerful and the failed Cookies protection too bloody convenient.

I also had a towny feel from Millit the Frail (even though I put her at the top of a vote analysis) which turned out to be wrong - I'll need to be more paranoid about that in future games :).

Any comments on how I played the game? Did I over do the vote analysis? What is the opinion on posting vote sheets off board (I did put mine up after Millits went down). I won't be updating it now, since I'm dead - not sure if there is an actual rule for that.

Thanks to all players and the SDMB for letting me play and a big thanks to Storyteller! The color at Dusk/Dawn and role PMs really give a good vibe to the game, well done! ;)

[NAF1138]

I thought you were one of the best players in the game Natlaw. You were so good that I thought you were scum for a good long time since it is rare to have a new player do that well on their first game (I think Hoopy was the last person to make such a strong first impression). I figured you were getting coaching from the scum.

I hope you stick around and play some more, and read this thread. There aren't any spoilers but there is a lot of good talk.

[Blaster Master]

Blaster Master was my most sure lynch, especially after the 'Story told me I had bad luck' part. If his initial post hadn't mentioned he needed to lurk for his role and his reaction to the magic bagging had been more calm, it would have been different.

I won't say too much about my own lynch, since I've already discussed it earlier in the thread, but I do want to clear up a few things. First, it really is no surprise that you didn't buy my claim at all; to bring back the poker analogy, it's easier for pros to play against pros because they're more predictable than amateurs. Not to say that you're an amateur, but a lot of my claim, particularly my composure, were based on experience from former games. I wanted to appear flustered because that's how I often see those sorts of claims go. Claims that seem to have everything in order, and are presented calmly tend to stink of premeditation and, thus, imply it is false; however, those are precisely the sorts of claims that go over well on newer players. This is probably why mine looked so fishy to you and MHaye's looked believable.

Unfortunately, like I'd said before, my claim depended on people either buying it (which I figured was unlikely) or figuring out that I was probably PFK and thus not a good lynch target. The problem was, I was hoping someone like NAF or JSexton would come out an say that, since I couldn't just claim PFK, but NAF was MIA and JSexton was scum. As I suspected, the only way I'd get lynched was if the scum piled on me; the unfortunate thing is that the scum actually decided to do that. :smack:



Anyway, you did very well and seem to have some solid instincts, so I hope you stick around and play some more.

[Hoopy Frood]

I thought you were one of the best players in the game Natlaw.

*Echoes that sentiment.*

You done good. I hope you stick around.

[Natlaw]

Thanks for the praise, I've subbed in pede game on the other board, so maybe I am getting addicted to Mafia ;).

On reading this thread, I see most of my questions are answered, except about the off board vote sheets.
I do agree that later in the game vote analysis is more useful, especially the end vote by player with colors gives a real nice overview.

I guess it is the experience with how you all nailed JSexton/Mhaye as scum so soon. About BlaM pointing to him, I did notice that while looking at JSexton, but I didn't think saying it out loud would have helped. I do find brewha scummy for saying we shouldn't look at BlaMs claims at all.

And I see they are mass claiming, which most people here thought wasn't a good idea. For the record, I was in favor of it Day Six to get more info to see if MHayes claim held up and later because I was making a case against special ed and was worried he might be a fourth mason due to his voting with town.
Anyway, I don't think it it turned out to badly, we town got a doctor and a role blocker now! I think the rest will claim vanilla and I trust Total Losts claim and it makes Almost Humans believable.
It allows for at least two confirmed town:
-AH protects TL, if some one dies (probably AH), TL blocked town
-TL dies the next Night, she blocked town again

[Pleonast]

Wow, you're new to Mafia, Natlaw? I just assumed you were an experienced player from another board who just started playing here. You're a natural! Please keep playing with us.

[Natlaw]

Not completely new, I lurked / read a couple of games here before playing. And since this game started in my vacation, I started with lots of free time to get in the game.

I don't think TL is important enough to us to lose you, AH. It's your role to play, but I'd rather see you play chicken with the scum, and maybe force him/her to tag a mason or unconfirmed rather than risk knocking heads with you.
While I would consider to WIFOM to self protect instead of TL (and only once), but it does look like Rapier is trying to get a clear shot at TL who is more dangerous to scum then AH. That was even discussed earlier, that a role blocker doubles as investigator at end game).

[sachertorte]

Wow. I guess I was wrong about brewha. Why did I think he was Town again?
That was a remarkably strange roleclaim. It just boggles the mind. Why on earth would there be a power to remove 5 deadites at a time? It's just too weird to believe.

Game over?

[NAF1138]

Send me a PM if you want a real answer.

[ToeJam]

Am I the only one amused by the thoughts of the Pure and Chaste Chick hanging out night after night with the Sorority girl- and then losing her "chastity"?

Well played Storyteller, I think you may have just created the first Lesbian Roles on here (not counting the very first mafia game I played in on the Off Board Dope were I think there were Lesbian Lovers)- But that was Cupid's choice, and not an actual Role mechanic....

[sachertorte]

This is insane!? Are they really going to lynch someone because that person uses a different WEB BROWSER?

[NAF1138]

I know.

[ToeJam]

When you're getting yelled at by DOTCHAN* on how to play good town, you might want to reassess what you're doing. Because yeah. That's just idiotic.
And speaking of which- Why haven't the dead people talked more? I'm suprised that the dead scum have been so passive. They really haven't taken advantage of trying to sow chaos or ANYTHING by spewing verbal crap into a thread like this. It's one of the reasons I'd expect the Days and Nights to be diff. threads, because teh whole point of talking scum is spew crap and fill up the page with milk solicitations and the like. Much like Jsexton's final comments. It's a good head twist.

And I'm surprised no scum has tried the "disgruntled scum" tactic or anything to try to create a false lead or such.

Or at least, that's how I'd exploit the system.

* By the way if it isn't clear by now, I just love giving Dotchan a hard time, but I mean it all in good fun. She's one of the players that joined at the same time I did in our first game together (Asylum) and she's quite a good player. But i HAVE lynched her many a times for her scummyness even when I was scum, and I always say these comments in half-jest as an inside joke. So don't take it too seriously, Dotty, you knows I loves ya! *Though if does bother ya, feel free to shoot me a PM and I'll knock it off.

[Blaster Master]

Eh, this is why, as much as I'd like to allow players to quote PMs, it ruins a lot of the fun. Making a successful role claim is much less about coming up with a compatible and believable power, and more about how convincing your role PM can be. You could come up with a thoroughly convincing role that, were PMs not allowed, would work, but something silly like a line of dashes (that, for all we know, could easily have just been forgotten by storyteller) ruins it. It's akin to the problem of vanilla hand-shaking and it sort of spoils some of the fun of the game.

Also, like Ro0sh, I'm surprised there's been less dead involvement. Dead pro-town people have a unique opportunity to put out ideas and have the town know that they're pro-town. Dead scum have the ability to possibly throw out WIFOM info, or at least flood the thread. Hell, all a dead scum has to do to guide conversation is be so incredibly loud that you can't be ignored or post something akin to what JSexton did.

[NAF1138]

I find that scum have missed a few good opportunities. They didn't really use their Day talking ability as much as they could have (I would think after Terminator that people would be all over Day co-ordination as scum) they didn't use their dead talking ability at all and they have made some rather silly kill decisions.

And town still isn't winning handily.

[ToeJam]

Actually, I kind of want to see if Zeriel is scum now....

Lynch him for information!

[Pleonast]

Eh, this is why, as much as I'd like to allow players to quote PMs, it ruins a lot of the fun. Making a successful role claim is much less about coming up with a compatible and believable power, and more about how convincing your role PM can be. You could come up with a thoroughly convincing role that, were PMs not allowed, would work, but something silly like a line of dashes (that, for all we know, could easily have just been forgotten by storyteller) ruins it. It's akin to the problem of vanilla hand-shaking and it sort of spoils some of the fun of the game.I see it as a problem from having a closed setup, rather than an open one. If everyone already knows what all the role PMs look like, then quoting them becomes a non-issue.

[Blaster Master]

It works in open setups, but sometimes games are more fun in a closed setup. For instance, my role in this game totally wouldn't have worked at all if it were open.

I do have a simple solution though; if you post your PM, you will be assigned a new role at the whim of the moderator that is appropriate for the impact of the infraction. Lots of fun, but would probably make some people upset. OTOH, I think a better way to manage it is through incentives similar to the whole shoe incident. Of course, there's plenty of more creative ways to apply incentive besides removing powers, but that depends on the specifics of the role.

[Pleonast]

Well, I have a strong distaste for post restrictions, so I tend to look for solutions that don't involve them. But that's why it's fun to have different people play moderator.

[Pleonast]

Well, with that last revelation, I'm fairly certain brewha is the last Deadite. He's burning the mostly dead to preserve his own life. They better lynch him for real Tomorrow.

[Natlaw]

And speaking of which- Why haven't the dead people talked more? I'm suprised that the dead scum have been so passive. They really haven't taken advantage of trying to sow chaos or ANYTHING by spewing verbal crap into a thread like this. It's one of the reasons I'd expect the Days and Nights to be diff. threads, because teh whole point of talking scum is spew crap and fill up the page with milk solicitations and the like. Much like Jsexton's final comments. It's a good head twist.

Well, early it wasn't maybe that good an idea, just because there is a chance they might make a slip. But they definitely should be trying something now.
There definitely are down sides for town, just take a look at the Super!Smash!Bros! game Day Two, where special ed is a known scum mason still alive and kicking (http://psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=smashing&action=display&thread=749&page=7).

If brewha had a role PM, the role he made up isn't that bad, since it gives a solution for the mostly dead. The bad part is the title though: some holy man VS a Religious Figure Having a Crisis of Faith?
If brewha is scum, I'm wondering if he can turn them in a lynch block (using the parts to survive), and now I see brewha actually claimed that too.

[Blaster Master]

Well, I have a strong distaste for post restrictions, so I tend to look for solutions that don't involve them. But that's why it's fun to have different people play moderator.

I think restrictions can be fun if done well. The real thing that bothers me is, for instance, that MHaye's claim was just God awful, poorly explained, and poorly timed, but people believed him because his role PM looked good. What I'd fear is that someone can play awful, their actions can result in bad stuff for town, and when confronted, they can post an honest PM and potentially avoid a lynch that way rather than argue their way out of it. For me, it goes back to the town being lazy except, instead of depending on a power role to save them they're depending on an a player's inability to duplicate the moderator's style; it's meta-gaming.

Of course, I think that restrictions (other than perhaps fun interesting role-related ones ala the Ventriloquist in Batman) of not being able to post role PMs can potentially limit gameplay. For the game that I've been making up in the back of my head, I've come up with other ways to mitigate it, and I think it will probably make it more interesting. So, for instance, if I want to prevent a specific person from posting their PM, I might include some information that appears innocuous but is valuable to someone else in a way that hurts them.

Of course, I don't really want to give away the ideas I've come up with for my potential future game (since it would be closed), but an example might be how NAF was a dog in this game, and a particular scum may, knowing that he's a dog, be afforded a tool to avoid being found out (like a dog treat, or whatever) such that, without posting the role PM, that person is able to be investigated, but after that part of the claim is revealed, he'd be immune; but since the dog aspect seems innocuous, no one could really be sure which parts of role PMs would and would not be safe. Another example might be that there's an otherwise normal person, but he has a vendetta against someone and, upon learning his name, he attacks or blocks him or something. So, it wouldn't be a restriction, per se, but it would certainly affect risk factor.

Now, if you're scared, for the game I'm planning, I don't think I'd do anything mean like that just to keep claims down, but I had become aware that some game mechanics could be abused in ways that they shouldn't be and/or go against the flavor of a role. Then again, all of my ideas are still in the "oh, it would be neat to use a role like that combined with a role like that", so who knows.

[storyteller0910]

Eh, this is why, as much as I'd like to allow players to quote PMs, it ruins a lot of the fun. Making a successful role claim is much less about coming up with a compatible and believable power, and more about how convincing your role PM can be. You could come up with a thoroughly convincing role that, were PMs not allowed, would work, but something silly like a line of dashes (that, for all we know, could easily have just been forgotten by storyteller) ruins it. It's akin to the problem of vanilla hand-shaking and it sort of spoils some of the fun of the game.

I have a new plan to solve this, if I moderate again. I find it very unfun myself.

[sachertorte]

Dead scum not talking is the correct move. Talking produces data. Data helps town. Scum could try and manipulate Town into doing what they want, but it is unlikely that Town will do what scum want them to do and more likely that scum will say something that they didn't want. At best, for scum, it is a wash, at worst, they give up stuff. Better to stay silent.

I don't have as bad of a PM problem since I write bland role PMs. Just the facts, nothing fancy.

[NAF1138]

Dead scum not talking is the correct move. Talking produces data. Data helps town. Scum could try and manipulate Town into doing what they want, but it is unlikely that Town will do what scum want them to do and more likely that scum will say something that they didn't want. At best, for scum, it is a wash, at worst, they give up stuff. Better to stay silent.



I disagree, it just has to be done well. Talking can be dangerous, but it can also totally shut down the towns ability to get anything done. Imagine 5 peekercpa's posting nonsense to the game 50 times a day each. It would shut the game down for town. Maybe not a fun way to play if you are a townie, but probalby a winning play for scum.

[Blaster Master]

Dead scum not talking is the correct move. Talking produces data. Data helps town. Scum could try and manipulate Town into doing what they want, but it is unlikely that Town will do what scum want them to do and more likely that scum will say something that they didn't want. At best, for scum, it is a wash, at worst, they give up stuff. Better to stay silent.

I don't have as bad of a PM problem since I write bland role PMs. Just the facts, nothing fancy.

I disagree. Some of my most successful work as scum was when people were pretty darn sure I was scum (which, granted isn't the same as being mod-confirmed scum) and I was so loud that they didn't have a choice but to acknowledge what I said. I think like what JSexton did is a good example, the fact that it ultimately didn't work in convincing them doesn't mean it didn't still have a small positive effect for scum. If he convinced them he didn't have communication, then they start having all kinds of false premises for any logic they base on it; if he failed to convince them, then they're just back at assuming he was communicating with them the whole time. Either way, he caused some distraction and it didn't offer any useful information to town.

Now, I'm not saying they need to come out and give opinions on who to lynch, since it's obviously WIFOM, but providing noise and distraction is almost always a benefit to the scum. Besides, data isn't always useful. If I tell you it's 25 degrees outside right now, but you're trying to figure out if it's going to snow next Tuesday, how useful is that? It SEEMS useful on the surface, because it's related to the weather, but it provides no tangible predictive value about whether it's going to snow on Tuesday or not.

So sure, pointlessly yammering and trying to sway the town into or away from voting may not be good; but well thought out responses still have some potential, even if it's very small.

[Blaster Master]

I disagree, it just has to be done well. Talking can be dangerous, but it can also totally shut down the towns ability to get anything done. Imagine 5 peekercpa's posting nonsense to the game 50 times a day each. It would shut the game down for town. Maybe not a fun way to play if you are a townie, but probalby a winning play for scum.

Heh, I'd considered that in my response, but it is a little bit unsportsmanlike. I think posting utter garbage would be silly, but as long as you're making posts at least semi-relevant to the game. Hell, I'd totally continue evaluating stuff, and agreeing and disagreeing with people as if I was still in the game. Was my seemingly valid reasoning useful? Maybe it is and people will discount it because it came from scum.

[sachertorte]

I disagree, it just has to be done well. Talking can be dangerous, but it can also totally shut down the towns ability to get anything done. Imagine 5 peekercpa's posting nonsense to the game 50 times a day each. It would shut the game down for town. Maybe not a fun way to play if you are a townie, but probalby a winning play for scum.

Well if Scum just wants to spam the game then what fun is that? Town would just skip the postings and it would merely be a nuisance, not effective. I don't think it would be a winning play at all. It would be annoying and frustrating and remarkably unfun. Bleh, I would really hate to see that happen in any game.

[NAF1138]

Well if Scum just wants to spam the game then what fun is that? Town would just skip the postings and it would merely be a nuisance, not effective. I don't think it would be a winning play at all. It would be annoying and frustrating and remarkably unfun. Bleh, I would really hate to see that happen in any game.

Well so would I, but I won't design a game where the dead can talk either.

Somewhere between what BlaM said, and what I said is a winning strategy for dead talk though.

[dotchan]

Nuts, I've been vaporized. :(

Thanks for the shoutout there, Roosh. And you're right--you KNOW the Town is playing bad when dotchan thinks you're stupid! (Good God, did they learn NOTHING from the debacle that was "Cookies forgot to capitalize Total Lost's name"?)

As far as PMs go, I publish ALL of the PMs in my game setups (but then again, all of my setups are either Open or Semi-Open) AND forbid quoting any PMs coming from me. While setting up the Three Kingdoms game, I also decided to have my killing parties submit their own methods of grisly murder and told the players so. I hate meta-gaming. The mod is only supposed to be there to provide vote counts and opening/closing color, and isn't supposed to be analyzed like another player (except, obviously, in Bastard games).

[JSexton]

Hi guys!

[NAF1138]

Sup JSexton? Have fun?

[JSexton]

Had a blast! Terrific game.

Um, no hard feelings, blam? :)

[JSexton]

Speaking of bad arguments.
Town had sunk to a new low. The Cookies "total lost" saga was bad. But the MHaye "Hal is an Alpha Redshirt" is even worse. Is Hal even paying attention to this game at all? He certainly isn't paying attention to his own words.
Deep down I'm hoping this is a scum ploy, that MHaye and Hal are going to distract the town with an "honest mistake." Otherwise, I think I'll cry.

You're saying Hal claimed Alpha? I'd like a link, cause I scoured the threads looking for it. Hal didn't have all that many posts.

[JSexton]

To take Pleonast's point further, JSexton should know that. Or rather, JSexton does know that and is purposefully ignoring it to go after amrussell who seems to be the only player looking at motivations right now. Gee, who would do such a thing?

Yeah, I know. Thing is, at that point in the game we were in a really deep hole. Most of the remaining town were scattered around the place. Not amrussel, though. That magnificent bastard was spot on in every single post. I take my hat off to him, as he posted the most consistently accurate analysis I've ever seen in mafia.

But we couldn't spare a nightkill on him, as we needed those to kill confirmed players. I knew he wasn't a mason, since he outed Hockey Monkey. That meant he was lynchable, and I had to go for it. Failed spectacularly.

[JSexton]

I mostly agree. But...

I don't think Masons communicating is an adequate counterbalance. Masons don't need to coordinate much of anything. Its a nice perk, but it isn't like Masons can set a trap for scum by being able to talk during the Day.

Scum however can evolve elaborate schemes. Furthermore, a more seasoned player can directly tell other scum what to do. Sure, they could do the same thing at night, but Daytalking enables real-time coordination to the situations. That is, scum #2 and #3 are voting for #1. The plan: 1 will claim and 2 and 3 will jump off the wagon. #2 will vote for X and #3 will vote for Y.
This type of coordination can't happen during the night for the next Day.


Scum daytalking is a two-edged sword. Yes, you can coach and plan, but in the long run, you create artificiality in their words. I'm convinced that's what sunk Millit.

[MHaye]

MHaye's acceptance of Hal Briston's charge against him regarding knowing that Hal Briston is an Alpha has me puzzled. MHaye states that he is always busy rereading the thread. If this is the case, then he should have come across Hal Briston's Alpha claim by now. The conclusion I'm reaching is that MHaye is not re-reading the thread as he states he is. That would be an indicator that MHaye is scum.

The way I see it, is if MHaye were town, he would have brought up the discrepancy by now. My main problem with this thesis is that no one has pointed out the error. Surely someone is re-reading things?Sach, I did a search of Hal's posts after he said that to find out why I thought he was Alpha. You can be sure that if I had found it, it would have been up in large font, followed by a vote for Hal for lying.

Remember where it is?

[MHaye]

And not to toot my own horn, but...
TOOT! TOOT! TOOT! :DHal?

I'm sorry, but that was exactly what I said it was in the main thread. A slip of the brain, and nothing else.

If you convicted me on that, you convicted me for the wrong reasons. I demand a reversal on appeal.

[MHaye]

I disagree, it just has to be done well. Talking can be dangerous, but it can also totally shut down the towns ability to get anything done. Imagine 5 peekercpa's posting nonsense to the game 50 times a day each. It would shut the game down for town. Maybe not a fun way to play if you are a townie, but probalby a winning play for scum.It's not fun for Town.

Someone did it in Pede's offboard game on Day 2, because they were outed as SCUM by the Dawn post. I think there were about 150 posts in the Day thread by this one player alone. Some were funny, some distracting, but 20 or so repostings of the Gettysburg Address? With a different letter eliminated each time?

The word used here for that sort of posting is "spam."

That's why I didn't try and flood the game with rhubarb; I felt it against the Forum rules.

Those of you who haven't followed the game, it also sheds light on the SCUM Mason issue upthread.

[Hal Briston]

Sach, I did a search of Hal's posts after he said that to find out why I thought he was Alpha. You can be sure that if I had found it, it would have been up in large font, followed by a vote for Hal for lying.

Remember where it is?It wasn't. I vanilla town, but Sach mistakenly thought I said Alpha somewhere. I didn't, I called him on it, and he recanted (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10696145&postcount=214). S'all cool now.I'm sorry, but that was exactly what I said it was in the main thread. A slip of the brain, and nothing else.Huh...well that's disappointing -- your role fit in perfectly with my theory. Ah well...

[NAF1138]

It's not fun for Town.



That I believe, but if I am scum I don't know that I would care. I haven't followed that game (I mean to, but it was already 5 pages strong when I first noticed it and I never caught up) but did help balance it. Pede and I spent a lot of time talking about that mason idea, trying to make it work. How did it work?

[Blaster Master]

Had a blast! Terrific game.

Um, no hard feelings, blam? :)

Oh, no hard feelings, you did the right thing. But I DID have you, I just wasn't in a position to garner credibility for my case. :(

[MHaye]

It wasn't. I vanilla town, but Sach mistakenly thought I said Alpha somewhere. I didn't, I called him on it, and he recanted (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10696145&postcount=214). S'all cool now.I saw as I continued reading. Thanks.

I didn't have a very good Day 4, unfortunately.Huh...well that's disappointing -- your role fit in perfectly with my theory. Ah well...No problem. Once you get spoiled (I assume you haven't yet) you'll see why.

[JSexton]

Huh...well that's disappointing -- your role fit in perfectly with my theory. Ah well...
Yep. We also did not know Blaster's role, contrary to opinion. That really was a case of scum legitimately finding scum through analysis.

[JSexton]

Please Jsexton do what I hope you're doing....

The scum have the ability to talk to the town from beyond the grave, why they haven't been doing that this entire game has been perplexing to me....

Then again, I know that sometimes JSexton likes to play a game w/o looking at his alignment at all. I hope he didn't do that for this game (because though that play is great, it sucks as well if you're a power role or such because you're putting your team at a disadvantage by not using it).
:D This was fun. Of course it was all a lie, and I didn't expect that many people would give it credibility. I was hoping that a few might, though, and sow enough doubt to shift voting momentum at a critical time.

As for the rest of us not using our talking ability? No one would listen to known scum. My gambit was the only way anyone might, and still hardly anyone bought it If we endlessly spammed, then we'd just get ignored. Or Ignored, more likely. I can even see the board moderators stepping in. It's a dick move.

[MHaye]

That I believe, but if I am scum I don't know that I would care. I haven't followed that game (I mean to, but it was already 5 pages strong when I first noticed it and I never caught up) but did help balance it. Pede and I spent a lot of time talking about that mason idea, trying to make it work. How did it work?Sorry NAF, thought I'd answered it.

The Masons spent some time arguing over when (not whether, but when) they should come clean to the game as a whole. One of the Masons suggested that they would be able to use their power to ID the SCUM Mason Night 1 (incorrectly, I might add). With the vote being two for Day 1 vs one for Day 2, one of the Masons unilaterally outed the controversy, giving everyone a good day or so before the Dusk to hash it over.

One (Town) Mason was lynched and another (also Town) Nightkilled. Since we'd eliminated two (by death) the third stood exposed.

So by Dusk on Day 2, the whole Masonry has been killed off. The fourth casualty was a third party Mad Bomber.

No names, no pack drill.

[NAF1138]

yowza. I need to read that game. It seems to be blowing up in interestingly unexpected ways.

[NAF1138]

I am sorry TL, but you have made a couple of really bad choices this game, and right here (below quote) is one of them*.

I did PM Story about Night Nine... but I'm not sure it it'll will do town any good if I can't say who I blocked...

I'm not good at breadcrumbs and scum can pick that up as well as anyone else.

So here goes:
AH - I think you're Town and I'll trust you and say this:

The game on FB - the first ever where you were the mod - I was killed and turned into the Buffybot... I did try to say things without really saying them.

I have done this the same way toNight

YOU DONT NEED TO BREADCRUMB! If scum don't kill a vanilla toNight the game is over for them if town lynches anyone tomorrow. They lose on numbers (2 confirmed vs. one scum in the final three.) Moreover, do you think that their is more than one scum left for them to hand the NK off to? Just say who you plan to block! There is no reason not to!

GAHHHHHH!


Sometimes...

*Your failure to protect me, WITH MY DAY ACTION!, at any point was another. All I needed was 2 more Days and the game would have been over.

[paulwhoisaghost]

I did PM Story about Night Nine... but I'm not sure it it'll will do town any good if I can't say who I blocked...

I'm not good at breadcrumbs and scum can pick that up as well as anyone else.

So here goes:
AH - I think you're Town and I'll trust you and say this:

The game on FB - the first ever where you were the mod - I was killed and turned into the Buffybot... I did try to say things without really saying them.

I have done this the same way toNight



Okay I'm new to this... so bear with me. Is this allowed? Seems a little like using out of game means to communicate without Scum being able to see whats being said. Even if the means is from the past. That would be like me planning out ahead of time a bunch of different eventualities and posting them somewhere and then telling a player about that site ahead of time. Then when the time came I could just say "Hey remember that site we worked on? Well it's number 2."

No difference, I would just be referring to a different site for information that I am trying to relate. Am I wrong, or is that not what TL is doing here?

[JSexton]

Okay I'm new to this... so bear with me. Is this allowed? Seems a little like using out of game means to communicate without Scum being able to see whats being said. Even if the means is from the past. That would be like me planning out ahead of time a bunch of different eventualities and posting them somewhere and then telling a player about that site ahead of time. Then when the time came I could just say "Hey remember that site we worked on? Well it's number 2."

No difference, I would just be referring to a different site for information that I am trying to relate. Am I wrong, or is that not what TL is doing here?

I think the difference is in planning to do it ahead of time. That's obviously way over the line. But trying to mask your statements to a specific person by obliquely referencing past events? I don't think I'd have a problem with it, as a mod. In this case, it's about a public event, and determined scum could probably find it and read it too.

Unless, of course, the whole game started to revolve around that tactic. I'd step in at that point and ban it.

[CatInASuit]

As pedescribe said, does anyone else have a game they want to mod after this one (ok, it's a bit premature) or would it be possible to have a go?

[NAF1138]

I think that Sach and Pollux both have games that they are getting ready to go up soonish.

[paulwhoisaghost]

Ok I see the difference. There is quite a bit of grey area there I guess. Thanks for the reply J

[dotchan]

...who is "paulwhoisaghost"? Misplaced answer, or did the Ghost of the Creepy Doll migrate boards, too? :eek:

[sachertorte]

I have a game ready. If this one wraps up during the next week, could someone start a signup thread for me? I'll be on vacation until the 13th. I'm thinking a one week signup period, then allocation of roles. Or Pollux Oil can do his. Whatever works.

[Rysto]

I needed enough suspicion from you guys so's that I wouldn't have to worry about being night killed.
Oh really? I thought that you claimed that the power you invoked yesterDay would prevent all night-kills?

[Hoopy Frood]

Oh really? I thought that you claimed that the power you invoked yesterDay would prevent all night-kills?

No, he claimed it would only prevent a kill from Dawn to Dusk. So no Daykill or lynch.

[Pleonast]

Ha! brewha is now trying to come up with a reasons not to lynch himself. The Town has a ton of mislynches left, they can afford to mislynch him. He's definitely Scum.

[ShadowFacts]

Ha! brewha is now trying to come up with a reasons not to lynch himself. The Town has a ton of mislynches left, they can afford to mislynch him. He's definitely Scum.

Agree 100% - he's been squirming for a while now. String his ass up!

[NAF1138]

Hey guys, since this game is winding down, but I know a lot of people who's opinions I respect are posting here and possibly not reading the offboard site. I put up a new article on the wiki (http://wiki.flyingcowofdoom.com/mafiaWiki/Guiding_Principles)that deals with general mafia game design advice and I am looking for some feedback to help refine it.


Please, let me know what you think either on the discussion side of the article or on the thread I started offsite (http://psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=temp&action=display&thread=760). And, it's a wiki, so feel free to just go in and edit if you have thoughts.

[Blaster Master]

Agree 100% - he's been squirming for a while now. String his ass up!

While I would tend to agree with this and think there's good evidence to lynch him, that much doesn't seem to be particularly present so it's not really relevent. So let's look at it this way:

Let's say he's pro-town. He is unconfirmed and he is thus mostly expendable. That said, it would seem logical that he can just take his lynch like a man. However, if he has an ability to mostly self-confirm, that is a pro-town motive because he can get confirmed and they can get on with lynching someone else. At this point, it's not a guaranteed victory for the town; it's still mathematically possible, though incredibly unlikely, that they can lose. If his self-confirmed plan has no downsides, which on cursory review it does not, then there's no reason for him not to suggest. I would think that the most pro-town thing to do would be to that, if he believes it to be true, but also to continue to provide analysis since, if he is pro-town, that means someone else must be scum and he should be providing useful information and not be turning the day into an argument about whether his suggestion is worth it or not.

However, the suggestion that he should just take his lynch is either lazy town since, even if they won't change the lynch, they should be using the extra time to work out potential scenarios and get some analysis done; or it's anti-town because the true scum wants to stifle the discussion and keep himself from being analyzed.

Let's say he's scum. What's his motivation? A scum suggesting he'd be blocked and knowing he couldn't get a kill off somehow would have no reason to suggest such a thing and he should know that if he can't follow through and is suggesting he'd get lynched Tomorrow, which he absolutely would if he can't follow through, then he should forfeit now. That means that, he probably has a methodology for circumventing a block and possibly did ran into a protect last Night (or maybe will try it tonight) which is why he'd recommend that he be blocked and no one be protected OR he has some kind of important one shot ability that could still save the game. It's not that dissimilar from what I was suggesting when I proposed that I pass a message because, really, why would a PFK be able to pass a message? I'd hoped it wouldn't seem reasonable that I could pass a message if I were PFK or scum (I could), that it would be presumed to be mutually exclusive with my kill (it wasn't), and thus I'd be less likely to be either and live through the lynch to at least get off one more power (one that could have potentially saved the game for me, even if the scum decided to kill me that night). For all apparent evidence, this and the town scenario are both possible.

IMO, the town should discuss his "plan" briefly, and essentially conclude, based upon the actual evidence and not because he's as good as any other unconfirmed. They should then ignore him and start looking at the other unconfirmed and lynch on evidence and not be lazy with the whole idea that it's hard for them to lose.

That said, regardless of whether brewha is town or scum, he should give more information about his magic bag, admit that he's a reasonable choice but because he's somewhat confirmable, based on his assertion, that it makes sense to maximize their position and lynch him Tomorrow if he lies. He should then drop the topic and start posting some useful analysis. He'll almost certainly be lynched either way, but it's in his best interest to play as pro-town as possible, and in a way that would otherwise be anti-scum even if he is scum.

[JSexton]

Hey guys, since this game is winding down, but I know a lot of people who's opinions I respect are posting here and possibly not reading the offboard site. I put up a new article on the wiki (http://wiki.flyingcowofdoom.com/mafiaWiki/Guiding_Principles)that deals with general mafia game design advice and I am looking for some feedback to help refine it.


Please, let me know what you think either on the discussion side of the article or on the thread I started offsite (http://psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=temp&action=display&thread=760). And, it's a wiki, so feel free to just go in and edit if you have thoughts.

You don't mind if I register there and go crazy, do you? :)

[NAF1138]

You don't mind if I register there and go crazy, do you? :)

Please do.

[ToeJam]

I think this game is done and won.

Good job guys. Nice try Brewha.

[Precambrianmollusc]

FWIW I believe we just passed the 2 year anniversary of the start of the first mafia game here on the dope.
9th Feb 2007.

It would seam the game structure has become a little more complex since then.

[Rysto]

It blows my mind that we only started playing 2 years ago. It feels like so much longer.

[NAF1138]

Agreed, and you were there from the start. Feel like reminising? I think you and Cookies are the only people from the first game that still regularly play.

[JSexton]

Agreed, and you were there from the start. Feel like reminising? I think you and Cookies are the only people from the first game that still regularly play.

I think I'm hurt.

[NAF1138]

Crap, you should be. I forgot you were in the first game. I most associate you with M2 in my mind.

[Rysto]

Agreed, and you were there from the start. Feel like reminising? I think you and Cookies are the only people from the first game that still regularly play.

JSexton and OAOW were definitely in that game. I'm pretty sure that Kat was too.

Edit: Kat definitely was, now that I think of it. Somebody said something about the werewolves eating Kat and she made a crack about being strangely turned on by that post.

[NAF1138]

Does OAOW still play? I think you are right about Kat though.

I could actually look up the list of players, but I rather enjoy making a fool of myself.

[ShadowFacts]

I could actually look up the list of players, but I rather enjoy making a fool of myself.

Of course you do - you work in the theatre! :p

[NAF1138]

Of course you do - you work in the theatre! :p

Honestly. My BA in Theater Arts that I wave around whenever I try to get a job that pays me real money should be proof shouldn't it?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

It does seem like we've been playing a lot longer than 2 years.

[Pleonast]

I'm sure there's some conversion between real year and Mafia years we're forgetting...

[JSexton]

Crap, you should be. I forgot you were in the first game. I most associate you with M2 in my mind.

Aww. But M1 is where the 3rd vote meme got started, remember? Popping Menocchio the Alpha on the flimsiest of all scum tells?

Good times, good times...

[NAF1138]

Good lord that's right! That would never fly today, but it isn't the only time it's worked. We seem to catch newbie scum every 3-4 games who have 3rd voted (even if that isn't why we go after them).

So long ago, and not that long ago all at the same time.