Evil Dead Mafia Forbidden Thread - The Cabin in the Woods

[CatInASuit]

Ok all, this is the Companion Thread to go with the new Mafia Game.

This will be for non-spoilered discussion of the game by anyone and everyone, APART FROM THE PLAYERS STILL PLAYING.

If you are still playing, you don't get to join us.

Please No Spoilers in this thread.

Should the necessity arise and you want to sub into the game, post in here.

[Rysto]

Wow, there's a blast from the past. Chucara's idea was discussed way back in forbidden thread of M1 and came up again in M2.

[storyteller0910]

Wow, there's a blast from the past. Chucara's idea was discussed way back in forbidden thread of M1 and came up again in M2.

And as I remember it, the dude who proposed it in M2, chrisk, took so much flack over the idea that he left the game and hasn't played since. We've gotten a lot less hysterical since then.

[Rysto]

And as I remember it, the dude who proposed it in M2, chrisk, took so much flack over the idea that he left the game and hasn't played since. We've gotten a lot less hysterical since then.
chrisk did play in a game recently -- within the past six months or so.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Huh. This is supposed to be a game of olympic proportions, and it doesn't involve story, Rysto or Cat? I think the new players have a high standard to live up to.

[CatInASuit]

I don't really have time to play Mafia at the moment.

Instead, storyteller was nice enough to let me help out with this game instead. :)

[mmouse9799]

Huh. This is supposed to be a game of olympic proportions, and it doesn't involve story, Rysto or Cat? I think the new players have a high standard to live up to.

Well, you do have Story as a mod, so there is that.

[Rysto]

Have you ever read M2? Day one, the group did this. Night one, the scum used that information to kill off the detective.
Have you read M2, pedescribe? 'Cause if that's the only lesson you took away from the game...

As it happens, scum did not kill the detective Night One. The detective was targeted by both the Vigilante and the Serial Killer. Now it is true that a certain townie came up with a convoluted theory revolving around the assumption that the Mafia killed the detective and pursued it vigorously, egged on beautifully by the scum. But that last bit is one of the most important lessons from M2. The scum sat in the background and let the Town chase its tail for the whole game, and we never figured out what the scum was doing.

[Rysto]

I'm very glad that storyteller has already said there's no recruitment, or I'd be fearing a turn-to-zombie mechanic. :p

Clearly JSexton has not played enough games with us if he'd wory that story of all people would use recruitment in one of his games.

[CatInASuit]

You know, this has got to be one of the quietest Day Ones going.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

There is only one mod. There are however, a few more of us watching this game spoiled. You can find the link at http://www.suckmyballspeeker.net/evildead

story, when this game is over, you can probably make a sweet penny selling that domain name to Pleonast. Just sayin'.

[ShadowFacts]

Total Lost may be onto something with Thing Fish. Scum love it when 2 townies are in the lead voting and can make it a choice between those two. Good catch (maybe).

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

One day, a group of masons is going to consist of people who don't take the mason tag and make it force them to play so fast and loose that they end up having to claim Day One.


One day...

[CatInASuit]

It never used to happen with the masons, there have been a few times they didn't jump out.

I wonder what changed or is it that feeling of "they are never going to lynch me", so they can say what they like and the doc will protect me. :rolleyes:

[ShadowFacts]

It never used to happen with the masons, there have been a few times they didn't jump out.

I wonder what changed or is it that feeling of "they are never going to lynch me", so they can say what they like and the doc will protect me. :rolleyes:

pedescribe in particular seems to be prone to claiming at the drop of a hat. With the vote as it was, there was NO reason for him to claim, IMO. Bad move.

ETA: I could be wrong about pede claiming, but that's my impression from the last few games I've read/played.

[storyteller0910]

pedescribe in particular seems to be prone to claiming at the drop of a hat. With the vote as it was, there was NO reason for him to claim, IMO. Bad move.

Well... except. Once pede had four votes, he'd have remained among the vote leaders thanks to inertia alone. By now he'd have had to claim. Assuming he is telling the truth about being a Mason, that would have sucked royally, because it would have forced the Town to scramble in search of an alternate target in the last 24 hours of the Day. At least his early claim gave them an extra half day to recalibrate.

[ShadowFacts]

Well... except. Once pede had four votes, he'd have remained among the vote leaders thanks to inertia alone. By now he'd have had to claim. Assuming he is telling the truth about being a Mason, that would have sucked royally, because it would have forced the Town to scramble in search of an alternate target in the last 24 hours of the Day. At least his early claim gave them an extra half day to recalibrate.

Whoops, you're right. For some reason I thought he only had 2 votes when he claimed. Sorry, pedescribe!

[Rysto]

Naf, can you explain why you are voting Chucara over Macey. Subtly is more suspicious than bluntness?

Absolutely. Scum will rarely be blatantly scummy. Subtlety is way more of a hallmark of scum than bluntness.

[ShadowFacts]

Absolutely. Scum will rarely be blatantly scummy. Subtlety is way more of a hallmark of scum than bluntness.

Yup. I suspect Macey will turn up Town.

[CatInASuit]

Unofficial vote count as of #191

macey(7) - brewha, Hawkeyeop, Hockey Monkey, special ed, dotchan, jsexton, pedescribe
Thing Fish(3) - Total Lost, peekercpa, pleonast
chucara(2) - NAF1138, diggitcamara
Pleonast(1) - , Thing Fish
DiggitCamara(1) - Natlaw
peekercpa(1) - amrussell
Cookies(1) - bufftabby
BlaM(1) - Cookies.

Well, looks like macey is going to #1 lynch, especially with less than 12 hours to go.

[CatInASuit]

Absolutely. Scum will rarely be blatantly scummy. Subtlety is way more of a hallmark of scum than bluntness.

Absolutely; totally agree with you.

Scum would never do that. :p

[ToeJam]

I just got caught up to date with the game... and i must say, my ego is a bit flattered that I was mentioned a few times already early in Day 1. I figured people had forgotten about me with all the new Mafia games and Facebook games that have been going on, but it's a nice little boost to see my name thrown out there every so often by one of the younger crowds..... :)

That said, I would swallow all of their souls if they keep up some of their thought processes.
I woulda lynched Macey too though if i were playing. Scum or not. The town needed information and that was the best way to get it- at least no one threw out the idea of a No lynch Day 1 at least.
Anyways, this looks like an interesting game. I'll def. try to keep up w/ following it having gotten to be a part of its conception. :D

[ShadowFacts]

Yup. I suspect Macey will turn up Town.

:smack:

Huge bonus for the Town - well done. Getting an early scum always helps, both in terms of raw numbers, and in terms of psychology: the more Days go by without a scum death, the more frustrated Town normally gets.

[ToeJam]

Peds latest post makes me wonder as I don't know the makeup of the game (can I get spoiled/a link to the spoiler boards pmed to me?) but now... i'm wondering about just what IS in this game's makeup. I gotta know!

[Rysto]

Absolutely; totally agree with you.

Scum would never do that. :p

Oh don't get me wrong, I absolutely subscribe to the storyteller "everytime I tell myself scum would never do that, I hit myself over the head until the thought passes" school of thought.

[Rysto]

Pleonast was a Mason and the Detective died Night One? If it weren't for the fact that two scum are down already I'd swear that story's just re-enacting M2 for his own amusement.

[Rysto]

I have never heard of a Night lynch before - but just to be safe we might need to unvote at Night from now on.
No, no no! Lynches are hugely pro-Town. If the Town really does get two lynches per Day/Night cycle they absolutely have to use them.

[Pollux Oil]

I haven't been to the Dope in about two months, came in here and read the Day Two/Night Two intro thread, and am now wondering what the hell is going on over here.

Aren't the Dope games supposed to be fairly normal compared to the other board's games?

*takes a peek at Idle's game*

Oh...yeah, okay, carry on then. :D

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

No, no no! Lynches are hugely pro-Town. If the Town really does get two lynches per Day/Night cycle they absolutely have to use them.

If there is in fact a night lynch, you're essentially cutting in half the number of scum kills to be performed. TL has been playing long enough to figure this out.

[Thing Fish]

Hi, everyone. Much calmer in this thread. No zombies around...I kinda like it. And there's Boozahol! Really missed you last Night, time to catch up drinking. I'll have some sort of obscure Belgian ale that smells like pee, in honor of bufftabby. Draw one for my pal Pleo if he shows up, too. I'm not sure about the etiquette for these threads...does "no spoilers" mean I shouldn't talk about my PM or Night action? It's a juicy story but I will sit on it if you all would rather try to figure it out for yourself.

[storyteller0910]

Hi, TF. No spoilers pretty much means no spoilers. Also, and unfortunately, due to some quirks in the rules, access to the "real" spoiler fora will be exceedingly limited. You may yet be called on to contribute to the game.

[Thing Fish]

Cool! I await instructions. Although the next contribution I make to Town winning this game will be my first...

[ShadowFacts]

I have to say that story's color in this game is freakin' hilarious. I particularly enjoyed this from the last dusk post:

SOMEONE
He speaks in a way that requires interpretation! Kill him!

:D:D:D Well played, sir.

[Rysto]

:smack:

Ok, has anyone who placed a vote for a confirmed Mason ever ended up scum? Ever? Having a brainfart is not a scum tell!

[sachertorte]

Hi all. I'm not sure if you noticed, but I took a bit of a mafia holiday; but storyteller's new game seems to be drawing me back.

In reviewing stuff, it seems that I was on the winning team for Terminator (Yay!). And to NAF, I totally had you pegged on Day One! Ha! :D And for actual reasons too.

I'm reading through Day One now and the brief exchange of "scum would never do that" was about to make my head explode until I read:


Here's the thing. If you're looking at two potential actions, where one has a clear townie motivation and one has a clear scum motivation, then it makes no sense to claim "well, he did the townie thing, and scum woud never do that." Because, of course, doing the townie-er thing is reason enough. We're in agreement up to here.

So where does it make sense to say "scum would never do that"? When the decision is between inaction, and taking an action that draws attention. If a suspect takes an action that doesn't benefit scum, and had the option to simply doing nothing (and no one would be the wiser), then I tend to consider that a strong indicator of townieness.

Could scum manipulate that to try and clear themselves? Potentially, but it's an incredibly risky play. Most people don't view that the way I do, so it's not going to clear them in very many eyes. It runs the very large risk of going the way my gambit in the last game did, and simply getting them lynched. IOW, such a play has medium reward, but very high risk. And, of course, even getting to that point requires perfect play. Any slip at all in the sequence of events, or tipping your hand that you wanted people to see the event, totally nullifies it. And given that you'd be under scrutiny, it's tough to actually play that perfectly.

Praise the Lord! Hopefully JSexton will be able to explain what I've continued to fail to convey.

[CatInASuit]

Well, that was an "interesting" Day :dubious:

[Pleonast]

Yay, I'm allowed to post here.

I wonder why I was killed. I don't think ped's "defense" of me was the reason. While it hinted that I was likely a mason, scum should be looking to kill power roles. Unclaimed masons pose little direct threat at the beginning of the game. If they killed me instead of shooting for a real power role, then I'm happy to take that bullet.

I'm very suspicious of NAF. His push to get people to remove votes to test if there is a Night lynch, and also suggesting that a Vig refrain from killing, is so anti-Town. If the Town has a Night lynch, not using it would be a major gift to the scum, just like choosing to skip a Day lynch. And power roles, including Vigs, should be left to their own discretion. Also, getting a useless investigation is a halmark of a scum fake-claiming. Despite all that, I get a Townie vibe from him.

Welcome back, sach! I look forward to playing with/against you in the future.

[sachertorte]

Hey Pleonast, thanks for the kind words.


Wow. Day Three was phenomenally stupid. The whole Chucara/confirm NAF was dumb dumb dumb to begin with, then they fuck up the execution too.
As far as I can tell NAF has been playing his claimed role as well as could be expected. He clearly states he wants to investigate townies and would prefer vanilla townies to "masonize" them. That is a solid strategy; one that NAF learned earlier when I pointed out that his choice as Detective in Simpletown would have won the game immediately if he had selected his "suspected town" instead of investigating his "suspected scum." He was right and found a scum, but that allowed the game to continue.
If NAF is scum, then Town handed him an easy-out for the Day three investigation.

Anyway, the Chucara gambit was dumb since even a 50% chance of guessing the correct answer would not sit well with the town anyway. They would think 50% is not good enough. And on top of that they decide to lynch Chucara before NAF gets a read on him! JHC!

I don't even understand the case against Chucara. He voted for pedescribe, a claimed mason! I read that and I was thinking Town all the way. Rysto totally saw it immediately too. What scum is going to vote for a claimed mason? I know this falls into the category of "things scum won't do" but it's not a matter of pro-town/pro-scum action. Scum would not draw attention to themselves by voting for a known mason. Scum are much more aware of who they are voting for. Town is much more likely to slip up and forget that pedescribe is a mason. Scum, not so much.


On other matters, I'm surprised storyteller is allowing conditional questioning. If he allows that, he might as well just allow one multiple choice answer with 27 possible choices. Actually, now that I think about it, DiggitCamara could ask his question as direct, non-conditional A) B) C) questions and get his desired result with a ternary encoding. Essentially, three questions with three groupings is sufficient to discern from a set of 27.

i.e.
encode Cookies as A - A - A (Cookies is in group A for all three questions)
encode Zeriel as A - A - B (Zeriel is in group A for the first two questions and group B for the third)
encode NAF as A - A - C
encode Hockey as A - B - A
etc.

This way the questions can be asked as non-conditionals. A same question all three times, but with different groupings. (Is the scum you investigated in group A [knock once], B [twice] or C [thrice]. For ease I would probably use groups ABC, DEF, and GHI to minimize confusion. The basic idea is there. Conditionals are a cheat!
I see now that DiggitCamara has amended the plan to eliminate conditionals. His formula has a few typos (he seems to have forgotten the existence of the numbers 8 and 9); but the overall design is sound and conditional free.

[ToeJam]

Heh, is anyone else hoping to see a lynch based on a Capitalization issue?
I love stuff like that, and it always gives me a glimpse into the mind of a Mod vs. the mind of a player.... IE: Would storyteller be the sort of person to put an intentional error like that into a Post? If he would, why wouldn't Cookies (if scum) just modify it to make it read "better"? Did she really just post her actual Role PM and not realize how that little issue could become a problem? Or did she actually rewrite her pm and that typo is actually her own??

I'm loving this stuff!

[sachertorte]

No. Lynching Cookies for the capitalization of "total lost" is simply stupid play. One, it's a bad idea. Two, storyteller has been non-capitalizing "total lost" consistently:

Revised vote count:

Chucara (3) - Diggitcamara, NAF1138, Natlaw
Diggitcamara (3) - Millit the Frail, amrussell, pedescribe
dotchan (1) - total lost
Blaster Master (1) - Chucara

(I hate doing vote counts, by the way; I'm too easily confused)

snippity-do-dah

Night Three begins now, and will end at around 4:00PM EST on Tuesday, January 6. The vote count stands as follows:

amrussell (1) - pedescribe
Cookies (1) - brewha
Almost Human (1) - total lost

And I think I know what NAF is up to. He wants to make up for lost time and get a two-fer by investigating Cookies's town-ness. If he can confirm Cookies, then Total Lost gets confirmed by extension. It is a sound plan. All NAF needs to do is forget about trying to confirm himself (he can't and he shouldn't try. He knows this, but got distracted by Chucara).

ETA: the interesting question is whether or not storyteller will correct his mistake in his next vote count.

[sachertorte]

I don't believe your PM because you said: "total lost".
I have only played in 2 games with Story beside this one (I think) - but the way he seems a linguist (not a perfect mafia-player... but what a linguist) I have indeed noticed the way he makes a word work for him! He would know the difference between:
Total Lost
total lost
totallost

some might call me TL - but I have been looking and I still havn't found anywhere he did that!

WTF?

If you do a "find all posts by storyteller0910" the very first one contains a vote count with Total Lost listed as "total lost" I found it in less than five seconds.

Total Lost could not possibly be looking very hard. If it weren't for the fact that Total Lost being scum requires Cookies to be lying scum as well, I'd think Total Lost is scum right now. The only possible avenue for Total Lost to be scum is for Cookies to be scum of a different faction, but I find that unlikely. What the hell?

[Pleonast]

Why is NAF pushing the masons to claim still? Claiming now reduces the pool for the remaining power roles. Masons will not be lynched, so there's no risk on that front. I know he's eager to increase the number of confirmed Townies, but masons claiming does not do that. They're already confirmed--just not revealed yet.

[sachertorte]

He doesn't want to waste an investigation on a Mason.

[Pleonast]

I guess that is possible, but I think the risk of reconfirming a Mason is smaller than the risk of an outed Mason being Scum-killed. Oh, there's also the risk of a Vig kill, but that's low as well.

[sachertorte]

Oh I agree with you Pleonast. NAF was pushing for the masons to claim rather early, but now that he's getting vanillas to claim in small numbers, he doesn't need masons to claim anymore. Either way, it's too soon for masons to claim. I'm just saying that is NAF's motivation, not that I necessarily agree with it.

[Hoopy Frood]

Heh, is anyone else hoping to see a lynch based on a Capitalization issue?
I love stuff like that, and it always gives me a glimpse into the mind of a Mod vs. the mind of a player.... IE: Would storyteller be the sort of person to put an intentional error like that into a Post? If he would, why wouldn't Cookies (if scum) just modify it to make it read "better"? Did she really just post her actual Role PM and not realize how that little issue could become a problem? Or did she actually rewrite her pm and that typo is actually her own??

I'm loving this stuff!

Have you been following along on the off-board game. Particularly today? I still feel dirty even though the dirt was paydirt.

[ToeJam]

Nope, sadly I haven't had time to read that one =(
I only am reading this one because I got to have a small hand in helping to create this one with some ideas that I threw in (but Storyteller's most certainly changed them since then- but it's nice to see small touches- Predator anyone? Who loves mixing franchises? :D )

And... I think Total Lost is trying to communicate a message. But I'm not sure... but i believe now that she's been giving off hints at something special. But i'll hold back on my thoughts on that one, since this isn't the fully spoiled area (and because I don't really know).
But I don't get a scum vibe from her at ALL... it's just a something other vibe that doesn't have to do w/ alignment, but she's hinting at something else methinks.... I think she's special, but not in regards to alignment, but in terms of powers or conditions....

Curious.

[Hoopy Frood]

Nope, sadly I haven't had time to read that one =(
I only am reading this one because I got to have a small hand in helping to

If you get a chance, check out my posts throughout toDay. I'd give you a Cliff's notes version of what's publicly available myself, but I'd rather avoid discussing anything too much over here because I don't want me or anyone else to be modkilled. (We had a mason modkilled toDay and we really don't know why. He somehow got access to information he shouldn't have through no fault of his own.)

But I managed to drag out a PFK claim due to a large discrepancy I noticed in a townie claim PM. Although, this was a unique circumstance, IMO.

[sachertorte]

Total Lost being special would be consistent with a previous storyteller construction. In his Blade Runner Game, one (mostly vanilla) character knew the town status of another (powerful) player. The original idea was to have a toned down masonry where one vanilla knew the alignment of another, but not vice versa. Storyteller adapted the idea to have the player know the alignment of a powerrole for his purposes.

[Pleonast]

That may not be a good sign for Total's survival at Night.

[CatInASuit]

A brief reminder for all of Cookies' grammatical "slip" from the Serenity game on Day 2.

NETA: So it isn't really fair to dismiss his ideas with "What if we get really unlucky with the probability and lynch a closeted pro-town detective?" unless you also bring along the optimistic side, that there was just as much of a chance that we could hit the scum investigator.

That's right, we were going to vote for her based on the definitive article. :D

[sachertorte]

But that was a completely different case. Cookies slip in serenity tipped her hand as they were HER words. Here she is quoting her PM as storyteller's words. As far as I can tell the case hinged on the use of "total lost" and only now pedescribe is making up shit about grammar and style. It's not a matter of word choice, they are implying that Cookies wrote the PM because it doesn't match storyteller's style. Which if they are going to make that case, they need to spell it out explicity rather than just say it is so without proof or reasoning. I'm not even playing this game and it's ticking me off.
I have no idea if Cookies is scum or not, but the case laid out so far is bullshit.

I have a feeling they will lynch Cookies simply because NAF doesn't want them to.

[Pleonast]

Is NAF trying to be anti-Town? Suggesting that it's better not to lynch scum? And then pulling the "if you don't trust me, just lynch me" complaint. He's off his usual excellent game. Or scum. ;)

[sachertorte]

Actually, I agree with NAF and I totally get why he's frustrated. Town has been acting ridiculously stupid so far. The case against Cookies is crap (which is different than saying Cookies is town, just that the case against her is... well crap).

The fact that NAF is being so abrasive is a Town-tell for me (at least with NAF). In Terminator NAF was uncharacteristically nice to me. I thought that odd and concluded he's scum trying to play nice and not get lynched. I think NAF is genuinely frustrated. Faking frustration is not an easy thing to do. If NAF turns up scum, I'll be very surprised, and NAF can then laugh at me for boasting about having his number.

The fact is, at this point of the game all that matters is that the town lynch UNKNOWNS and non-powerroles. It doesn't matter who. Allowing NAF to investigate scum to prove his power is a tangible benefit. However, in my opinion, NAF is getting distracted with the desire to be confirmed and trusted. A reasonable thing for NAF to want, but the true optimal play is to build his masonry and ignore whatever else anyone else says.

Did I mention that the case against Cookies is sucky?
So from NAF's perspective, he thinks he can confirm Cookies and by extension Total Lost -- appealing!
The downside is if Cookies is scum, but NAF sees upside there too as he can then demonstrate his power. What he's failing to see is that if Cookies is scum and NAF is scum, he would know this anyway. Not fantastic for confirming NAF.

So NAF is mostly right in that the case against Cookies is crap, but everything else should probably be left unsaid.

Can't anyone who was IN BLADERUNNER speak the fuck up?

[ToeJam]

well, I mean that Total Lost has been hinting at his or her specialness, not the specialness introduced by Cookies.

Though I do not know Total Lost's posting style I admit, but the way she's talking right now... If I were not town and had a killing ability, I'd do it to her for fun to see what happens.

Also, I really hate the whole micromanaging of someone else's power role. Diggit is fair game, since he offered to be the Town's messenger, so micromanaging his questions is all fair game, but the whole issues w/ the Town worrying about who NAF may or may not investigate? That would drive me batty. That's why I just prefer to do things on my own, and just trust in my own instincts and assume the Town is filled with expendable cannon fodder. Just play the game as Honestly and Pro-town as I can, and assume the Town is automatically filled with idiots that will get in my way if I try to do anything. That's kinda why I like lying as Town or Scum, because even if I'm pro-Town, the town will find some way to screw up my plans (such as Nanook calling out NAF's little "subtle" jabs to various people and forcing him to explain himself).

I think even though I like playing Pro-Town more than Scum, I tend to think with a scum mentality when I play Pro-Town Power Roles. Which is just plain troublesome.
But it's LOADS of fun!

I dream of the Day when I'm a Vig... me with killing powers? I'd just play as an SK!

[ToeJam]

Bah, I'll just come out and say it- Just don't read it if you plan on subbing into the game in the future:
I think Total Lost is part of a Lovers group. Her word choices and actions all Day today make me think she's trying to hint at that for some odd reason, and I don't know why- If I were scum, I'd totally take the shot to try to get 2 kills for one by offing her- After I asked my fellow scum if anyone of them were involved with her, if not, then yeah, totally kill her to see what happens. At the very least, it'd be good WIFOM for the next Day.

[Pleonast]

Ro0sh, did you read the SDMB Mafia game? Being a Vig is fun! Too bad my kill record was not so hot (3 Townies, 1 Scum, 1 3rd party). But the Town never managed to lynch scum that game, so I was doing better than the lynch.

sach, your summary is spot-on. I'm getting tons of Townie vibe from NAF, but I still think he's playing anti-Town. :p

[Pleonast]

Thinking about it more, why did NAF claim when he did? Was he under vote pressure? His claim is too much of a distraction. He had bunch of statements to test; he should have tested them over several Days and reported the results and claim later. Town lynches him to confirm and game over.

Talking about his claim and what he's doing has not been productive.

[sachertorte]

I have mixed feelings about the timing of the claim. NAF saw that the scum roleblocker was dead, so he had that going for him. But my guess is that NAF was afraid of being nightkilled and wanted Doctor protection. Since only one died on that night, it might have worked out for him.

Investigator claims are tough. The benefit of information makes claiming early very tempting and I think in this case, justified.
- One investigtor already dead
- dead scum roleblocker
- No dead Docs.

If anything, I would have timed the claim to be just before Dawn.

[ToeJam]

Wow.

I'm impressed by Diggit's Play actually, and his power. The knocks are still there for the Town to deal with... they may have today as a free day. Now will they waste it by just trying to rush a lynch, or will they sit there and try to do something productive in the meantime?
Or will they just argue about Naf again for a while?

[ToeJam]

:Eyes widen as he deciphers the message:
AHHHAAHAHAHA!
Oh man! That's AWESOME- just... too rich!

Ah! That's hilariously unfortunate for the Town, but just GREAT Comedic value.... I could picture this scene in the movie as everyone gets all excited about the newly found scum- and it turns out to be Buffy's 20% remains.... Oh man. That's just great. I gotta say I'm rooting for Not Town in this game, because I'm sure they were holding their breaths this morning too.... :D

[sachertorte]

The Diggit Situation is interesting to me. As a role, Diggit's power is unique in that once he set the question in motion, there was nothing scum could do to stop it. Kind of sucks for scum, but Yay for DiggitCamara.

Furthermore, the fact that scum killed DiggitCamara indicates that they feared his power and the information that might be revealed. That is, scum did not know that Thing Fish investigated the already deceased bufftabby and offed DiggitCamara in the hopes of preventing the information (potentially outing one of them) from coming to light. Why they thought killing DiggitCamara would prevent the message from begin answered I don't know, but this is the first time we've encountered a power that was essentially death-proof.

Anyway, not really helpful, but interesting to see how scum is viewing the game.

[storyteller0910]

What's especially interesting about Diggit - and here I will tread carefully, so as not to reveal too much - is that, as my description of his role once he was dead will suggest, there was a good deal more to his role than the seance ability he actually used. As a hint, he actually did use one other active power during the game. And he sacrificed a great deal, including his anonymity and other potential ways to help, in pursuit of answers from Thing Fish.

[Pleonast]

I can understand killing Diggit. While they couldn't stop ToNight's questions, they did stop further questions.

What causes me to pause is why killing Diggit was considered higher priority than killing NAF. Diggit can only get information that dead Townies already know. The Fish well has run dry. NAF, though, has the potential to add to the confirmed Townie list every Day. That would seem to be a bigger threat. So I think we either have poor play by the Deadites, or there's significant information we're lacking.

Edit: you're such a tease, story. :D

[DiggitCamara]

What's especially interesting about Diggit - and here I will tread carefully, so as not to reveal too much - is that, as my description of his role once he was dead will suggest, there was a good deal more to his role than the seance ability he actually used. As a hint, he actually did use one other active power during the game. And he sacrificed a great deal, including his anonymity and other potential ways to help, in pursuit of answers from Thing Fish.

Yeah. I was actually afraid Thing Fish had investigated one of the deadites who'd already been lynched. My guess (as to Pleonast's idea of a NAF kill) is that scum thought he'd be protected during that Night. My hope was that I was the one to be protected toNight.

I shouldn't have asked my questions toNight, actually, and let myself be lynched (at worst). Hey, hindsight is 20/20.

[sachertorte]

Yeah. Scum killed Diggit because NAF was a likely protectee. While Diggit's power looks defunct since ThingFish only had one investigation, that doesn't mean someone else with info might not suddenly die. It's not a terrible kill either since Diggit would be strongly confirmed by the Knocks.

If NAF is Town, scum are in a really precarious situation. I'm under the impression that there were four masons to start (President, Vice-President, Treasurer and Secretary). I could see 3 masons as a possibility as well, but 5 is just way too many. Scum is so lucky that Town screwed up the investigation and lynch the previous day. That was huge.

Had the town not Fucked up NAF's investigation the previous day, the town would have 3-4 potential confirmed towns. As it is they have 2-3. Each cycle will entail 1 Day lynch, 1 scum kill, potentially 1 other nightkill, and NAF's investigation. The Day lynch would remove an unknown (either scum or town, doesn't really matter at this point) and NAF's investigation would either hit scum or create a new confirmed town. This puts all scum in a bad place. They have to either kill from the unconfirmed pool and face an ever growing confirmed town list, or kill confirmed town and leave NAF alive to create MORE confirmed towns. Yuck for them. The last two nights only yielded one nightkill to boot! For scum to win one of the following must be true:
- NAF is lying
- An anti-town third party killing faction must exist

I don't think NAF is lying. I think the Doctor is protecting NAF. NAF's play as scum just doesn't make sense to me. He wasn't in danger of getting lynched and the number of nightkills dropped more than expected after he claimed (Though if the third kill was a Vig, that would be an alternate explanation). NAF false claiming what he did doesn't fit the data and doesn't make for a good scum claim... especially with the risk of third party killers who would want a Town investigator dead as well.

Scum are screwed. The only thing that will save them is the Town's stup... um... unique way of doing things.

[sachertorte]

I find Hawkeyeop's play unusual. I know he's Town and everything, but the incessant harping on Cookies is close-minded and bad play. I honestly don't know why Hawkeyeop is so certain that Cookies is scum. If he knows something, he should just say it.
Hawkeyeop is correct with one thing though, lynching Cookies is a "safer" route than having an unconfirmed NAF investigate her. The only problem I have with that logic is that I think Cookies is Town.

Many players were willing to lynch Cookies over the "total lost" debacle. What stuns me is that these same players who were willing to take the lack of capitalization as a reason to lynch Cookies are NOT taking storyteller's consistent lack of capitalization as proof that storyteller wrote the PM. They can't have it both ways. Did Cookies ever refer to Total Lost as total lost? (I don't know the answer to that and I'm not looking it up) Isn't it more likely that if Cookies made up the Total Lost line that she would have typed "Total Lost" while it is more likely that storyteller would type "total lost"? Does it make sense for storyteller to tell a scum that Total Lost is not scum?*

Cookies is Town.

* Okay, maybe- just maybe it makes sense that storyteller would tell a third party that Total Lost is not a Deadite, but that is mighty strange and breaks the case against Cookies anyway since the major component of the case against Cookies is her defense of macey, which as a third party doesn't make sense either.

[Pleonast]

The Town needs to start pressuring non-voters. Talk about anti-Town play! The vote/lynch mechanism should be the Town's primary means of catching scum. By letting non-voters slide by, scum benefit by either not voting (and thus avoiding accountability) or by controlling the lynch. Active players should focus-vote each non-voter in turn until they vote.

Lurking is a problem too, but not voting is an even bigger one.

[Pleonast]

Ha! Rapier is threatening to vote for me! Voting for a living Mason is silly. Voting for a dead Mason? :smack:

[peekercpa]

Dag nabbit, I did have a plan. I just had some personal stuff that cut it WAY short.

I'll probably not be allowed to play again since it seems that I play more against the Mods than anything else. Remember, sach?

I truly don't believe that Spassky minded losing to Fisher. 'Cause he took him on twice. And got his Ass handed to him both times in a bad way. At the end of the day they were buddies. Same with this game. I've got my ass in my hands.

[storyteller0910]

Hey, peeker, you're still winning.

[sachertorte]

Yawn.

Poke poke poke.

[Pleonast]

peeker, are you dead or only mostly dead? Because if you're only mostly dead, you really should use the situation to your advantage and post more incomprehensibly than usual in the game thread. No Townie motivation to not to. :D

[Pleonast]

I don't think it's fair to the Town that the players are forced to speculate about whether the game moderator will ever mod-kill non-participatory players. I can understand keeping secret the details. But the Town's in the position of "do we need to take care of non-playing players ourselves or not?" The vague rules about enforcement means the Town has to talk about it, rather then letting the rules take care of it, and instead of talking about the players actually playing.

I like the "no vote means mod kill" rule I used in my last game. It lets players lurk as much as they like, while drawing a bright line against actual non-participation. Definitely using that in my next game.

[storyteller0910]

I don't think it's fair to the Town that the players are forced to speculate about whether the game moderator will ever mod-kill non-participatory players. I can understand keeping secret the details. But the Town's in the position of "do we need to take care of non-playing players ourselves or not?" The vague rules about enforcement means the Town has to talk about it, rather then letting the rules take care of it, and instead of talking about the players actually playing.


Nobody is forced to talk about anything, and I gladly will (and do) answer any question directed to me - about that subject or any other - via PM. I am allowing infinite quoting of my PMs, so nothing stops anyone from asking me what's up, then reporting my answer to the rest of the Town. What I won't do is post about it in my official capacity as a moderator, into the game thread. There's a number of reasons for this, but I'm sticking to it.

(Blaster Master is going to be modkilled at the end of Day Three if he hasn't contributed in a substantive way, by the way. He knows this).


I like the "no vote means mod kill" rule I used in my last game. It lets players lurk as much as they like, while drawing a bright line against actual non-participation. Definitely using that in my next game.

Actually - for what it's worth - I hated that rule (and that's as what I'd consider to be a very active participant). First of all, everyone slid around it by just pretend voting, which fuzzed up the records without actually encouraging real participation. But also, a bright line like that sucks. Let's say Poster X is playing the game, participating like a motherfuck, posting and voting and obviously playing in every sense of the word. Day Four starts and Poster X makes ten posts in the first two real-life days of the Day, but isn't ready to vote yet, and figures he has plenty of time. Then his computer goes out, or he gets sick, or real life intervenes for real. The Day ends.

Now, if you modkill him for nonparticipation, that sucks, because it's completely contrary to the purpose of the rule in the first place. But if you don't modkill him, then you're being unfair to whichever side he's NOT on, because the rules were the rules.

Plus, it leads to more meta-gaming and trying to find ways around the rules, and to the loathsome searching for cutesy ways to exploit modkill rules, which makes my skin crawl. I like this set-up best: the mod will decide how to handle each situation on its merits. If you don't trust the mod to keep things fair, probably you shouldn't be playing in that mod's game.

[sachertorte]

Prior to Blaster Master's post, I would be pointing to JSexton as my candidate for lynch.

So now Blaster Master posts. The timing of his postings really annoys me. As it is there is no evidence to make a case against him, but I would want to lynch him anyway.
1) His policy of intentionally playing different each time irks me. It's a copout and in my opinion a pretty shitty cover since the whole point of the game is to uncover behavioral shifts in players.
2) His timing has been 'too coincidental' for my taste.
3) His not-claim claim is troublesome. If he has information he doesn't want to share, then he should not share it at all -- meaning don't even mention it. To do otherwise is irritating. I believe the kids are calling it a "magic bag."

I think in the next game everyone should pair up, that is, every role will be shared by two people (public, upfront, and disclosed prior to role assignment). If one doesn't show up, hopefully the other will. Then maybe we won't have these non-participant issues we are having now. Ugh.

Is there a living player list somewhere? I bet there are a bunch that I'll be surprised to see on the list.

[ToeJam]

yeah. i agree with story on that one.

Plus, I kinda like the fact that you're not discussing it out in public. Because LURKING is a valid strategy (and one that hasn't been done because of the nature of the games- and I'm glad to see on reading that my assumption that that's what Blaster was doing is true).
Because honestly if I were a power role in this sort of game- i'd TOTALLY give it a shot- I wouldn't make up real life excuses or anything, but I'd simply lurk and see what happened.
Because RARELY does the town execute a lynch the lurker sucessfully- the only risk is that of a vig or an sk that wants to avoid detection. But if I were any sort of a power role (regardless of sides) I'd TOTALLY be talking to story all the time, and trying to see how far lurking would get me.

The town talks about lynch the lurker strategies, but it rarely happens because it leads to no good outcomes. So whenever I'm in a scum team- I always try to hope that someone will play the role of Lurker Scum- because it's a GREAT and easy role to play- just post whatever the minimals are, and try to stay under the radar as LONG as possible. It's the town's responsibility to try to kill you. So I totally wasn't a fan of NAF's attempts to try to ask for a player to be modkilled or such, that sort of thing is totally between the lurker and the Mod. Especially since lurking would allow one to escape the grasps of those who have post restricted investigations (such as NAF).
T'was quite clever, though i wonder if Blaster is town or scum- he gives off a Townie vibe (because he's coming for with information at this time), but I still have hopes that he's scum.

[ToeJam]

1) His policy of intentionally playing different each time irks me. It's a copout and in my opinion a pretty shitty cover since the whole point of the game is to uncover behavioral shifts in players.
2) His timing has been 'too coincidental' for my taste.
3) His not-claim claim is troublesome. If he has information he doesn't want to share, then he should not share it at all -- meaning don't even mention it. To do otherwise is irritating. I believe the kids are calling it a "magic bag."


I guess we'll have to disagree as:
1. I like the intentionally different play style- as it gets boring to play the "same" people each time, so it's nice to introduce some variety, since Blaster is one of the few that actually DOES do this across his games quite well. I say this, because once when I was scum I was vigged because I happened to state a playstyle that apparently was different from my PREVIOUS game's play style. So the vig got to take credit for killing me and all, but I was just pissed- because he used something out of game to try to kill me- as I do change styles too every so often- so he would have killed me for that even if I were a Townie, as I would have said the same thing if I were town or if I were scum- i just happened to be scum that game.
Blaster's strategy is a nice and easy way to avoid that sort of thing- so experienced Vigs will not be so readily and willing to off him because of that.

Some may call it a "cop-out", I'd call it a long-term play strategy. I also think it's a GREAT Scum Tactic (as by my above post). I think Lurking and the whole point of finding out information/behavior shifts in mafia is valid, but if you're SCUM and you want to be SUCCESSFUL as scum, Blaster's tactic is GREAT over the course of several games.
The way I view is that Blaster is basically trying to optimize his chances of winning whenever he's in a game as SCUM. It's a long term goal, and that alone amuses me, so I don't mind putting up with it. Especially because it's not an effective strategy- it's just a crap one because it pisses players off, and can do more harm than good. Which is why I'm a fan of it- as things like that amuse me. I play these games for entertainment, and players who do ridiculous things are generally GREAT sources of entertainment (which it IS frustrating as a townie though trying to simply WIN/Solve the game- I often think of that as playing "Roosh style vs. Storyteller Style" when I make roles to see which one is more likely to enjoy/dislike each role and its powers. So I try to balance the game that way- that people like storyteller (and you) would not be so frustrated by a game's mechanics and that it's still somewhat "solvable".... But I always love a good liar or magic bag.
:D

3. It IS totally a magic bag though. And it amuses me, because he was the one who FIRST railed against me and my "Magic Bag" post from FireFly Mafia. So to see him doing exactly what I did there is kinda amusing as he was my biggest opponent of my Magic Bag and my Stupid-yet-town Full Reveal Proposal.
The Irony... it's so savory!

[sachertorte]

Some may call it a "cop-out", I'd call it a long-term play strategy. I also think it's a GREAT Scum Tactic (as by my above post). I think Lurking and the whole point of finding out information/behavior shifts in mafia is valid, but if you're SCUM and you want to be SUCCESSFUL as scum, Blaster's tactic is GREAT over the course of several games.

Which is precisely why he should be killed. Anyone adopting such a strategy should be killed immediately. Not such a great strategy then.

[Pleonast]

Which is precisely why he should be killed. Anyone adopting such a strategy should be killed immediately. Not such a great strategy then.I was going to say the same thing. Any tactic that makes it easier to play scum is by definition anti-Town. Lynch away. :)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

story, I can see your point about have a flexible line rather a fixed one (I'll get back to that in a moment), but my primary complaint in this case is that it's not clear to the players that the moderator will in fact mod-kill. A simple statement like "non-participatory players will eventually be mod-killed" would do much to reassure me as a player. Without such a statement, I'd have to consider lynching non-participants rather than the most suspicious active player. (There'd be too much risk of scum winning by simple non-action.) And that is why I don't like the lack of clarity.

Of course, as you say, a player could ask the moderator these sorts of questions. But I prefer open, unambiguous rules. I'm sure several mods will attest to my typical flurry of questions whenever I get an ambiguous role/rule--I need to know my boundaries. I want to play against the other players, not against the moderator. Clear rules let me do that.

So yes, my bright line of mod-kill for non-voting lends itself to gimmicks to avoid. But it's clear to all the players what that line is. And if a player is edging the line, the others can react appropriately. It comes down to me preferring gimmicks to vague rules. It's not a deal-breaker for me to play, although some pathological sets of rules can turn me off (see Gastard Mod game).

The alternative I'd use rather than non-voting death is absolutely no enforcement of participation via rules. That is, it'd be wholly up to the players to enforce participation. I think this is the purest Mafia way to do it, but I'm fearful that it could lead to a stagnant game. Would you prefer that type of rule instead of my non-voting mechanism? Of course, I'd have to be cognizant of this when balancing the game, depending on the victory conditions.

[Pleonast]

Oh, and about mod-kill active players who fail to make a vote for whatever reason--that's why my Days are long and fixed. There's ample opportunity to vote. Players may need to adjust their voting technique and probably should considering the penalty for failure. I see nothing inherently wrong about rules (especially ones that affect all players equally) that require players to shift from their usual playstyle. That's part of the fun of switching up our mods.

[Rysto]

once when I was scum I was vigged because I happened to state a playstyle that apparently was different from my PREVIOUS game's play style. So the vig got to take credit for killing me and all, but I was just pissed- because he used something out of game to try to kill me- as I do change styles too every so often- so he would have killed me for that even if I were a Townie, as I would have said the same thing if I were town or if I were scum- i just happened to be scum that game.
Are you talking about Apocalypse? I didn't kill you because of a change in playstyle. In that game, BLaM got lynched essentially for non-participation. You were a late comer to that bandwagon, and while you talked about how BLaM was playing in Apocalypse you never made mention of the fact that you've noticed that BLaM is constantly changing his style, but you did bring it in a forbidden thread for another game happening concurrently. I killed you because your failure to bring that up in Apocalypse made your vote for BLaM seem very opportunistic and lacking in honesty.

You may well have voted for BLaM anyway had you been Town, but I'm certain that you would have mentioned how BLaM is always changing his playstyle.

[sachertorte]

Well, at least someone has pointed out that Blaster Master's strategy is anti-Town. Blaster Master says its not, but of course he would say that. Anything that obfuscates motivation is by definition anti-Town.

Kill him!

I don't even know if he is Town or not, but he needs to be dead. This intentional random playstyle strategy needs to be nipped in the bud.

But it looks like they will have NAF investigate instead, which is probably for the best, but really really irks me. I don't want this strategy to be validated. It would be the death of the game actually.

[Pleonast]

My towniness goes without saying. And, in fact, I'd hoped that you may have considered investigating me at an earlier point, but it is unfortunate that you did not.:smack: He's avoiding making a definite statement about his alignment. He needs to be lynched, pronto.

[sachertorte]

Not to mention way too many investigators.

We have:
Thing Fish, dead-confirmed Town investigator
NAF, claimed investigator of truths
Blaster Master, claimed investigator of some sort.

NAF's statement of belief of Blaster Master intrigues me. I wonder why he feels this way. I'm guessing that something Blaster Master said reminds NAF of his own role so that is why he wants to believe him.

I still want Blaster Master dead at this point. Town should be especially cautious of investigator claims that occur under the threat of lynch.

ETA: And now he's just being annoying. Everyone knows he needs to just come out and state "I am town" but he won't do it. Gah!
What's super-stupid is he can't wiggle out of it. Everyone will press him to make the statement and if he doesn't they will lynch him. Just a waste of time. Town/scum, doesn't matter, he's wasting everyones time.

[ToeJam]

You may well have voted for BLaM anyway had you been Town, but I'm certain that you would have mentioned how BLaM is always changing his playstyle.

ah yes, that's the one. I think I'm just bitter about that kill, because it was a GREAT move by you, and had you not done it, I probably would be gloating about that game.....

But yeah, I just never tend to think about that sort of a thing, as I keep every game separate from each other- so if it didn't cross my mind in Apocalypse as a scum, it probably didn't cross my mind as if I were Town either especially if I had mentioned it elsewhere.

That was a great game for you btw, congrats on your SK win there. Man... i really should get back into playing mafia, but I have no free time =(

[peekercpa]

peeker, are you dead or only mostly dead? Because if you're only mostly dead, you really should use the situation to your advantage and post more incomprehensibly than usual in the game thread. No Townie motivation to not to. :D

Well I never got any notification that I was partially dead, so in the grave I stay, voiceless.

I really did have a plan, that I actually ran by story to create as much chaos as possible. Unfortunately RL stuff occurred. It could have been really good for me. I won't say anything more since it would spoil the game and I alread fucked it up enough.

[peekercpa]

And I ask this question honestly. Does the way way I play this game seriously mess it up?

I kind of like obscure literature, philosophical and historical oddities.

C'mon pleo let me have it. I like intertwining randomness into predictability.

Right now town, would have already sewed it up if I were still alive.

Is it is supposed to be played one way or just your way?

[Pleonast]

And I ask this question honestly. Does the way way I play this game seriously mess it up?

I kind of like obscure literature, philosophical and historical oddities.

C'mon pleo let me have it. I like intertwining randomness into predictability.

Right now town, would have already sewed it up if I were still alive.

Is it is supposed to be played one way or just your way?Well, the way you play seriously messes me up. When you're in full obscure mode, it's basically impossible for me to understand what you say. So I have little choice but to assume the worst.

But one vote doesn't lynch a player. And if you don't get lynched for it, do as you will.

This game, you interspersed enough signal within the noise (at least while I was alive) that I didn't have a strong complaint against you. You would have heard about it. :) For me, as long I can get something non-fluff out of a player, I don't have any complaints about lack of content.

So expect me to complain about you and vote for you, but that's just me trying to catch scum. :D

[ToeJam]

And I ask this question honestly. Does the way way I play this game seriously mess it up?

If it ever bothered me, I'd just have you killed.*

:shrug: So if you're alive in the game, you're doing just fine. I like entertaining players.

[sachertorte]

And, if my intentions were to cause her harm, considering that she's a pretty unlikely doctor target last night, she probably would have turned up dead Today, no?


So, I targeted her with a nightmare with the intention that she would die from a heart attack.

Uh, Blaster Master doesn't sound sufficiently consistent to me. I'm really not liking his position here. Early on he implies that he did not intend to kill Cookies, then he outright says he tried to kill Cookies. The weird thing is, this makes me less wanting to kill Blaster Master. As scum, if he were trying to lie his way out of things he would just stick to his lie. As Town, he might have tried to wiggle a bit at first and not outright say he tried to kill Cookies, but then come clean and tell the truth 'cause that's what town should do.

However...

I have the ability to slip into peoples dreams and I did so last Night to Cookies. The way my power works is that I don't have a specific power, but a series of one-shot abilities. Some of them are similar and differ only in color, some of them are different. But, yes, I slipped into her dream and I caused her to have a nightmare.

I think someone earlier noted that the existence of Predator opens the possibility of other Non-Evil Dead characters in the game. I think someone even specifically mentioned Freddy Krueger. Blaster Master's power description certainly sounds like Freddy Krueger.

[sachertorte]

I think Blam is a PFK called Freddie Kruger who has the power to affect people's dreams and has to be killed by the townspeople to fulfill his win-condition.


Meh. Personally I don't like Jester roles. I especially don't like scum Jester roles. The Town should not be punished for finding scum. The traditional Jester role is fairly neutral, the only punishment to the town is that they waste a lynch on the jester. Recently we've seen a beefing up of the jester role into scum/jesters which, in my opinion, is a crazy game design. Punishing town for doing the right thing just makes the game more random and less playable. Potential jester status is not a good reason to not to lynch someone. If he is a scum jester, then what else are going to do? You have to lynch him eventually right? If he's a town jester, then little harm is done.

[sachertorte]

First off, my claim: I am vanilla town.


This is the kind of stuff that would drive me bonkers. As it is, I expect it to be driving NAF bonkers as well. What part of NAF's explicit plea for NO more vanilla claims did he not understand. If he is scum, then I guess good job, but if Hal is town he's cut down the power role pool even more.

[sachertorte]

His first quote said deadites don't have dreams. Either cookies is definitely town (which fits into my idea that the power Ash is a deadite) because she had a dream, or she's a deadite making up a dream to get BlaM.
Whoa. If deadites don't have dreams then, how can Blaster Master justify taking a shot at Cookies? Blaster Master has said he has no effect on Deadites yet he can KILL.

PFK if I ever saw one.

Kill him.

[Pleonast]

Meh. Personally I don't like Jester roles. I especially don't like scum Jester roles. The Town should not be punished for finding scum. The traditional Jester role is fairly neutral, the only punishment to the town is that they waste a lynch on the jester. Recently we've seen a beefing up of the jester role into scum/jesters which, in my opinion, is a crazy game design. Punishing town for doing the right thing just makes the game more random and less playable. Potential jester status is not a good reason to not to lynch someone. If he is a scum jester, then what else are going to do? You have to lynch him eventually right? If he's a town jester, then little harm is done.Unless Scum are equally penalized (above that of a teammate being eliminated) for a Scummy Jester being lynched, I agree it's an unfair mechanism.


If I were still in the game, I'd be pushing for a BlaM lynch. His play this game has not been helpful to the Town. His statements being all over the place may be a Townie tell, but it's poor play. Unless he offers some compelling reason for the Town to not lynch him, say a full reveal and a promise of some useful information, he needs to hang.

[sachertorte]

I take that back. Sort of.

It still doesn't make sense for Blaster Master to claim he tried to kill Cookies. If he's anti-Town he would have made up something far less damning. Why say he tried to kill someone who ended up living? There is just no reason to take on that extra burden.

On the other hand, is role shows he can kill humans and PFK, but not Deadites since Deadites don't dream. Therefore taking a shot at Cookies should either kill a townie, kill a PFK, or have no effect. That's not pro-town.

On the other other hand, storyteller's role PM could just be sloppy and didn't see the logical loophole.

[sachertorte]

Unless Scum are equally penalized (above that of a teammate being eliminated) for a Scummy Jester being lynched, I agree it's an unfair mechanism.

Yes, that is correct and more inline with my meaning. I'm more against the punishing of the town for lynching a scum jester via reward to scum. If it is just a win condition on the jester role that doesn't affect the town (but is balanced for the hapless scum) then I'd be okay with it. Just don't punish players for doing the right thing!

[sachertorte]

NAF is my hero. If he turns up scum I'll be really, really pissed.

[sachertorte]

I don't think I'll ever understand Blaster Master. His logic is so illogical!

How does sending a message to another player prove anything? All it proves is that he can send a message to another player! It says nothing about alignment or maliciousness.

[Pleonast]

Is there something about roles with a list of one-shot powers that make the players irrational? BlaM isn't usually like this. I guess I'm doubting his scumminess, but I still think he should by lynched.

[ShadowFacts]

Given what he has revealed, I happen to know what BlaM's role is due to some very minor assistance I provided with the set-up of this game. I won't reveal what he is, but I will say that whatever his role is, his play is coming across as incredibly scummy to me. I would not hesitate to lynch him were I playing. He's dancing so fast he's making ME sweat! ;)

[ToeJam]

I feel the same way Shadowfacts for the same reasons.

I'd lynch BlaM no matter what my alignment was- just because he's using TERRIBLE reasoning to justify his "towniness".
"Look guys, I have a non-lethal ability! You guys can TOTALLY trust me! Hurr hurr hurr, forget the fact that Freddy Krueger and many other psychotic villains loved to taunt their enemies before they killed them! I SWEAR I'm Town! hurr hurr hurr"

[Pleonast]

Go, go, JSexton!

What's the vote count? I'm very curious to see the lynch results.

[sachertorte]

I totally get why everyone wants Blaster Master dead. I do too. But for me, the sloppy way he goes about yelling "I'm town, really! Here are incoherent reasons why!" doesn't strike me as a scum play. I don't really know how to explain it though. As scum, its a ridiculous way to go about getting oneself out of a jam. As Town, its just plain ridiculous... BUT, I can at least see a townie being so self-involved that he only sees his own townness and can't see how others will perceive his ranting. In other words, to a town-aligned Blaster Master all of his actions seems 'obviously pro-town.' He just isn't capable of seeing himself in any other light.
But there are so many other reasons to lynch Blaster Master. If only he had claimed before he was the top lynch candidate. If only he wasn't pursuing a randomized playstyle strategy that is clearly anti-town. If only he answered questions and requests thoughtfully and in a way that shows he actually has been paying attention to the game.
He's put himself in a position where town pretty much has to lynch him. But I'm happy that he will swing since I don't like the "random playstyle so you can't tell when I'm scum" strategy.

Prior to today JSexton was at the top of my scumlist, but his posts today have been spot on. If Blaster turns up scum that would be a big point in JSexton's favor. If Blaster Master turns up town or PFK then I'd return to a neutral feeling.

[sachertorte]

I'm going to read the rest of the thread before deciidng who to vote for. I still have 2 hours.

He only has one hour.

MHaye's playstyle is another that annoys me. He thinks I hate him for it, which is not really fair to me. I dislike his strategy, not him personally. I simply think it hard to analyze someone who only posts his thoughts at the very end of the fucking day. It's so self-serving. Not quite as bad as varying style from game to game to set-up a scum win for oneself, but I would totally adopt a "when in doubt Vig MHaye" policy simply for this reason. MHaye gets a pass though since there are plenty of worse "lurking" offenders. So if MHaye gets vigged in a future game on Night One, I probably did it.

[sachertorte]

With half an hour to lynch, Blaster Master has suddenly become cogent. He's still gonna get it though.

[sachertorte]

Oooh, a possible tie with Zeriel's miscolored vote hanging in the balance.

[sachertorte]

MHayes end of day vote reminds me of another reason why I don't like his playstyle. When I was scum I hated committing to a vote. I would very much have preferred to wait and see what everyone else was thinking, the direction the wind is blowing, and see who is vulnerable. Scum voting early have to put forth reasoning and motivation that may very well not pan out. Then they have to move the vote and justify that. All very messy.
MHaye avoids all this by waiting until the end of the day to see everyones cards before acting.

Yeah, MHaye should be killed as a matter of policy.

[ToeJam]

A well written death scene, Story, I was suprised by the John nash thing, and loved the Clue cutaway... and then the leaves line was PERFECT.

You, sir, are still what I aspire to be as a storyteller. :bows:

Also, yeah, once I saw the Predator was in there, I knew there was a 2nd SK in the game (as, I REALLY REALLY Loved the suggestions in the pre-game of the Great SK Kill off (and that's what the +2 by Preddy meant), though I was REALLY disappointed to see both the SKs go out in really weak ways, they should have lasted MUCH longer than this... kinda a bummer...)

Though I thought we had come up with 3-4 diff. variations of the SK game, so I didn't know which one was in here, the Predator was a delightful suprise, and then the dreams thing started my leaning towards Freddy, so yeah, Sorry Sach you didn't think he was scum, but i KNEW he wasn't town cuz I got to see the pre-game.....

I think only the Riddler has been the "successful" PFK of being allowed to live by the Town and nearly achieving his goal, since then though, the TOWN HATES all roles that claim to have helpful abilities that aren't standard ones.... And usually it's for the best.....

Plus, the winner of today's Day by Moi: Netlaw for his pointing out of the "Bummer, buddy" by Storyteller in BlaM's PM.
That shoulda been a death sentence right there for BlaM.

[Pleonast]

Welcome to the dead side, BlaM. Better luck next time. :)

I'm surprised the kill count has been as low as it has been. Town was lucky, I think. And is now in a good place.

I can't believe JSexton is still smudging Total Lost. I consider her and Cookies both confirmed at this point.So if MHaye gets vigged in a future game on Night One, I probably did it.If you like, we can switch up--I'll take MHaye and you take peeker. ;)

[ToeJam]

yeah, i don't trust JSexton in the game right now, but I always get that vibe from him, so i dunno.

[peekercpa]

The only thing I will say in my defense is that I played this one for me to win. Maybe not in the spirit but just to win the damn thing. I did the same thing in sach's game.

Theoetical question: when you have your opponent on the mat, do you extend a hand to keep the competition going or do you just give it to them in the neck?

I am much more of the latter persuasion.

[ToeJam]

how did you do that? you only had 2 points?

You shoulda kept going to rack up points dude.

[ToeJam]

Unless you think your death sold him out... which I totally woulda done if i were alive and in your shoes. If I knew the other SK was alive and figured out who he was, i'd sell him out and hope to kill....

But i like staying alive and messing with the players.... So i guess I'd choose the former...

[sachertorte]

Sorry Sach you didn't think he was scum, but i KNEW he wasn't town cuz I got to see the pre-game.....

While I wasn't certain that Blaster Master was scum, I certainly did not think he was not scum (double negative!). I like to point out both sides of the argument for the case against anyone (really, everyone should) because no one will act all scummy or all townie. It's the balance that matters. My point was I could see Blaster Master's illogical rantings as a plausible Town blind spot. That was the one point against a mountain of reasons to kill him (reasons he's anti-town). I rarely get to the point where I'm certain someone is scum. One simply can't do that in this game. Hawkeyeops insistence that Cookies is scum is a good example of how distracting it can be. Maybe he's right, but he could very well be wrong too. All that I can really say is whether someone deserves to be lynched, Cookies does not and Blaster Master most certainly did.

Also, I think I saw the pre-game stuff too. It's slowly coming back to me. So in terms of "figuring the game out" I'm disqualified. But in determining who is scum... I'm still playing.

.If you like, we can switch up--I'll take MHaye and you take peeker. ;)

I'm fine with that.
1) MHaye
2) Blaster Master
3) peekercpa
:)

As for the low kill count, I think that's what storyteller meant by Blaster Master having bad luck. BM had three nights to kill someone and wasn't very successful. I wonder if he tried to kill pedescribe but failed due to doctor intervention. I see that as a plausible possibility since Blaster Master was really trying to push that angle as reason to keep himself alive. Possibly to flush out the Doctor into speaking up. BUT Blaster Master said he did this on Night one when there were three deaths (presumably one by Blaster Master). So does that mean there were four killing factions on Night one? That doesn't make much sense to me. Blaster Master's bad luck aside, that's a big drop in killers from 1 to 2 and 3. Also, pedescribe said there are 2 PFK. hmmmm.

[Blaster Master]

What really gets me is that the places where I really screwed up with my claim weren't caught at all, but people were sticking to silly things about color and stuff. So, yeah, I was lynched correctly, but for the wrong reasons.

FTR, the wording of my response to NAF was deliberate, but it wasn't intended to be dodgy, it was intended to look dodgy. The whole point was that I wanted it to look dodgy with the idea of "why would scum do that?" The worst part is the whole "scum would never do that" has become the new "third vote is a scum tell", in that now when stuff looks like scum would never do it, because assume it not must be something scum would do.

Either way, I do maintain that a lot of people who were pushing my lynch hard were scum, and I wasn't lying when I think that JSexton is almost certainly scum. On the plus side, at least I left a lot of confusion for the town to deal with as punishment for lynching me.

Oh, and damn you storyteller for the most horrific luck possible.

[Hoopy Frood]

Unless you think your death sold him out... which I totally woulda done if i were alive and in your shoes. If I knew the other SK was alive and figured out who he was, i'd sell him out and hope to kill....

But i like staying alive and messing with the players.... So i guess I'd choose the former...

I don't think peeker knew who he was, though. But Blam definitely recognized peeker after the whole Fluffy the Dwarf thing. (Notice how fast he voted peeker.) That was one of the cover names on the board they were allowed to taunt each other on. (Which only they and story get to see.)

I was really hoping for a more epic battle, though. It was kind of a letdown.

[peekercpa]

I don't think peeker knew who he was, though. But Blam definitely recognized peeker after the whole Fluffy the Dwarf thing. (Notice how fast he voted peeker.) That was one of the cover names on the board they were allowed to taunt each other on. (Which only they and story get to see.)

I was really hoping for a more epic battle, though. It was kind of a letdown.

Well it's kind of a DUH that Blam knew who I was after my quote. I was trying to win no matter what. When I looked at the information that was given me I had already eliminated a whole host of folks as being clanky.

Check my post on the boards and you will see that I already kind of pegged it right.

My shelf life on these games is pretty short.

When you get a lead you go into four corners if you have a short stack. Boring as hell but it gives you the best chance of winning - who cares what the peanut gallery says.

Of all people, Hoop, knows that I will do anything to win.

I was up, smoked BM out and won.

Bad form, you betcha. Good result for me, Double you betcha.

Is it supposed to be different?

[ToeJam]

but if blam had kept his mouth shut for 2 more days... couldn't he have gotten away with it and potentially earned the kills, Peeks? You didn't KNOW that BlaM would out himself the next day, so it was a risky move to make.... How did you "smoke him out" exactly?

[peekercpa]

but if blam had kept his mouth shut for 2 more days... couldn't he have gotten away with it and potentially earned the kills, Peeks? You didn't KNOW that BlaM would out himself the next day, so it was a risky move to make.... How did you "smoke him out" exactly?

There were (are) some intracacies of this game that are just so pure story.

Suffice it to say that between my PM and some interactions that I was pretty sure of whom my adversary was.

Remember "off board" communication was not only anticipated but, to some extent, encouraged.

That definitely played into that no good, cock sucking, piece of shit, worthless use of oxygen, should have had a twin that was nice, dick cheney kind of being that we call blam (just kidding, kind of, you know, like maybe, well yes, ok yes it's all true) being a prime adversary.

'Course I figured this out long after I was dead. :)

[sachertorte]

What really gets me is that the places where I really screwed up with my claim weren't caught at all, but people were sticking to silly things about color and stuff. So, yeah, I was lynched correctly, but for the wrong reasons.

FTR, the wording of my response to NAF was deliberate, but it wasn't intended to be dodgy, it was intended to look dodgy. The whole point was that I wanted it to look dodgy with the idea of "why would scum do that?" The worst part is the whole "scum would never do that" has become the new "third vote is a scum tell", in that now when stuff looks like scum would never do it, because assume it not must be something scum would do.

Either way, I do maintain that a lot of people who were pushing my lynch hard were scum, and I wasn't lying when I think that JSexton is almost certainly scum. On the plus side, at least I left a lot of confusion for the town to deal with as punishment for lynching me.

Oh, and damn you storyteller for the most horrific luck possible.

I'm not sure that the town's reasoning was silly at all. Sure some specific components were less solid than others, but the main point was there was a long list of reasons to kill you and a really short list of reasons to keep you.

Your "scum wouldn't do that" gambit intrigues me. Basically, the only person you would have succeeded in fooling is not in the game (me). Town has never bought into the "scum wouldn't do that" defense, ever. Even when it is plainly obvious that scum really would NEVER do that. Quite frankly, I don't think they ever will. So taking that tactic was ill-advised.

I don't know what to thing of JSexton. I was leaning scum before the Blaster Master drama, but now I'm not sure. Since Blaster Master is PFK, he doesn't get brownie points for the lynch.

[ToeJam]

. Town has never bought into the "scum wouldn't do that" defense, ever. Even when it is plainly obvious that scum really would NEVER do that.

I wouldn't say that..... :D
Milk anyone?
Or perhaps an explosive bomb strapped to one's leg?

The town's believed a lot of stupid stuff based on "the scum would be an idiot to do that".... :D

[peekercpa]

What I don't understand is why PFK's necessarily need to be killed. In some cases they can be an additional tool for the town depending on their win condition. Matter of fact they could be a town asset depending on the predisposition of the person. For example if you are Nancy Do Good and your win condition is totally independent of any faction and is not solo wouldn't town want that soul around to do some dirty night work for them? Of course, Johnny Be Bad could be an asset for scum but it seems net/net to be a town asset.

[storyteller0910]

What I don't understand is why PFK's necessarily need to be killed. In some cases they can be an additional tool for the town depending on their win condition. Matter of fact they could be a town asset depending on the predisposition of the person. For example if you are Nancy Do Good and your win condition is totally independent of any faction and is not solo wouldn't town want that soul around to do some dirty night work for them? Of course, Johnny Be Bad could be an asset for scum but it seems net/net to be a town asset.

Actually, I'm really surprised that neither you nor Blaster were completely open with the Town - especially you, because your own limitations meant that you could really hurt the Scum much more than the Town. You had relatively few eligible Townie targets, but you had to know that the demons would generally qualify under the "must be armed" rule.

If I had been either one of you, I'd have said, under pressure: "look, I'm a Serial Killer. But if you look at your own win condition, it says nothing about preventing third-party wins. That's because we can't steal your win. Work with me here, and everyone will be happy."

[ToeJam]

yeah being completely open about it, would totally have changed the game for ya if you had come forth with the goods, peeks. It woulda been worth a shot, if 24 hours before the end of the day- you had just come out and said "guys, there's 2 SKs out here. I'm the GOOD one. The other one is an evil evil bastard who wants to eat your children and lick your babies! Vote for me and all hell would occur, but in the meantime, i can't hurt unarmed peep" or something, basically tell the truth, but fudge a little to make the other SK look like a right bastard, only problem was- the other SK wasn't doing anything lethal! =(

[peekercpa]

What I don't understand is why PFK's necessarily need to be killed. In some cases they can be an additional tool for the town depending on their win condition. Matter of fact they could be a town asset depending on the predisposition of the person. For example if you are Nancy Do Good and your win condition is totally independent of any faction and is not solo wouldn't town want that soul around to do some dirty night work for them? Of course, Johnny Be Bad could be an asset for scum but it seems net/net to be a town asset.

[peekercpa]

Am I the only one, but does it feel, right now, that town is going to fuck up a wet dream?

[ToeJam]

Erm... I think it's just you peeks. :scoots away from Peeks:

[NAF1138]

I can't believe I didn't get doc protection last Night!


I will actually read this thread later, but for now...spoilers?

[DiggitCamara]

I can't believe I didn't get doc protection last Night!


I will actually read this thread later, but for now...spoilers?

Yeah. Our doc seems to be off the ball... I thought I was deserving of some protection as well.

Worse than that: both my screw-ups and the doc's (if there is anyone with that role) are putting the town in serious trouble.

[NAF1138]

Yeah, why didn't you freakin get protected? There is no sense in that.

Maybe town doesn't have a doc?

[DiggitCamara]

Maybe (s)he's busy protecting the known mason?

[DiggitCamara]

What I really don't like, though... the scummites are both in possession of and have started using the item.

[CatInASuit]

Spoiler free please gentleman, spoiler free. :)

[Blaster Master]

Actually, I'm really surprised that neither you nor Blaster were completely open with the Town - especially you, because your own limitations meant that you could really hurt the Scum much more than the Town. You had relatively few eligible Townie targets, but you had to know that the demons would generally qualify under the "must be armed" rule.

If I had been either one of you, I'd have said, under pressure: "look, I'm a Serial Killer. But if you look at your own win condition, it says nothing about preventing third-party wins. That's because we can't steal your win. Work with me here, and everyone will be happy."

I had considered coming clean, but there were two problems. One, I'd already gone all out to get peeker killed because he was a Serial Killer, and Two, there's an established pattern of always killing PFKs. Hell, I was one of the people who helped to create that pattern because it's almost always beneficial to the scum to have the PFKs taken out, but it's not nearly always as beneficial to the town for it. The REAL problem was, how could either of us ever possibly convince the town that we wouldn't steal their win? There simply isn't a precedence for that, and all they'd have to go on is the word of someone they knew they couldn't trust.

On that note, like I kind of alluded to in the game, I do think the town made a bad move lynching me, even if they were pretty sure I was PFK. I had not actually managed to kill anyone, so me being a SK didn't fit with the available evidence. I had no link to anyone except for another PFK, so there was absolutely no information to be gained from my lynch, and I actually had the potential to provide useful information to the town. The only question would have been whether or not I could have stolen their win in the next Night which, like I also said, just wouldn't make sense because it was only the Fourth Night in a rather large game, and I had provably not played the role perfectly.

All of this is stuff that an experienced, pro-town player should have picked up. I think if NAF had been around and part of the discussion, I may have had a better opportunity to get that out there. This is also why I'm reasonably certain JSexton is scum.

On that note though, I just wish the Day were longer. What really happened to me was I ran out of time, because I'd managed to convince enough of the town not to vote for me that I think with some more opportunity to make my argument, especially with someone like NAF poking me with the benefit of the town in mind, versus someone like JSexton who, again, I'm convinced is scum and wanted to see me lynched whether I was town or PFK, then I think I could have gotten a couple more votes onto Hal, and lived to fight some more.

[Blaster Master]

And also, since I think it came up in here too, can someone please explain the logic of how me changing my playstyle is anti-town? By the logic I've seen, it's just as much anti-scum as it is anti-town. If I'm pegged as an aggressive, loud person when I have a particular role, or a reasonable person when I have another, then the scum have as much difficulty pinning whether I'm vanilla or a power role as town does determining whether I'm pro-town or anti-town. Obviously, my experiment in this game was a failure, but does my change of style really upset people that much?

[sachertorte]

I had considered coming clean, but there were two problems. One, I'd already gone all out to get peeker killed because he was a Serial Killer, and Two, there's an established pattern of always killing PFKs. Hell, I was one of the people who helped to create that pattern because it's almost always beneficial to the scum to have the PFKs taken out, but it's not nearly always as beneficial to the town for it. The REAL problem was, how could either of us ever possibly convince the town that we wouldn't steal their win? There simply isn't a precedence for that, and all they'd have to go on is the word of someone they knew they couldn't trust.
I agree, mostly. I generally push for all PFK to be considered part of the Town's lynch burden, even if they are innocuous to the town. Town simply can't know that a PFK is not malicious. If there is no way of knowing, the PFK has to die. I think there is precedence for innocuous PFK, but even with precedence Town still has to lynch the PFK.

On that note, like I kind of alluded to in the game, I do think the town made a bad move lynching me, even if they were pretty sure I was PFK. I had not actually managed to kill anyone, so me being a SK didn't fit with the available evidence. I had no link to anyone except for another PFK, so there was absolutely no information to be gained from my lynch, and I actually had the potential to provide useful information to the town. The only question would have been whether or not I could have stolen their win in the next Night which, like I also said, just wouldn't make sense because it was only the Fourth Night in a rather large game, and I had provably not played the role perfectly.
Here I disagree. For the same reason town would have to kill you if you came clean, Town has to lynch you in this case.

All of this is stuff that an experienced, pro-town player should have picked up. I think if NAF had been around and part of the discussion, I may have had a better opportunity to get that out there. This is also why I'm reasonably certain JSexton is scum.
I'm not sure if that is the case. Given a choice between you and Hal Briston, you are the better lynch. Both are lurkers and your posting on the last day revealed ample evidence of non-Townness. The choice looks pretty simple to me. I do agree with you that JSexton is a good place to look for scum though.

On that note though, I just wish the Day were longer. What really happened to me was I ran out of time, because I'd managed to convince enough of the town not to vote for me that I think with some more opportunity to make my argument, especially with someone like NAF poking me with the benefit of the town in mind, versus someone like JSexton who, again, I'm convinced is scum and wanted to see me lynched whether I was town or PFK, then I think I could have gotten a couple more votes onto Hal, and lived to fight some more.
Possibly, possibly not. The shorter days might simply be more efficient. If the day were longer then it probably would have just taken longer for the town to start harping on you. That is, you might have only had one day to work in either case. The beginning of the Day is just fluff no matter what. A case could be made that shorter days just moves up the juicy parts.

[sachertorte]

And also, since I think it came up in here too, can someone please explain the logic of how me changing my playstyle is anti-town? By the logic I've seen, it's just as much anti-scum as it is anti-town. If I'm pegged as an aggressive, loud person when I have a particular role, or a reasonable person when I have another, then the scum have as much difficulty pinning whether I'm vanilla or a power role as town does determining whether I'm pro-town or anti-town. Obviously, my experiment in this game was a failure, but does my change of style really upset people that much?
My feeling is that anything that obfuscates your motivations is anti-Town. Changing styles is self-serving, that is, it helps you as an individual; since everyone else has no idea what team you are on, it helps you and hurts them. So killing you is the easier than having to decide whether each of your actions is scum-motivated or some fancy new "style."

And it is very much more anti-town than it is anti-scum, because you could be scum. And even when you are not, obfuscating whether or not you are a powerrole is a very minor facet. In other words, hiding that you are scum is much more anti-town than hiding whether or not you are a powerrole is anti-scum.

[NAF1138]

I disagree with sach on this one BlaM. All it does is make you like a new player every game. My problem with it is that you have recently been choosing anti-town playstyles. Ironically the only game of the last several I have seen you play in where you didn't pick an anti-town style of play was SDMB...where you were scum.

So it isn't so much that you change the way you play, but how you change the way you play.

On the subject of your lynch:
I think if I had a little bit more time the Day you were lynched I would have talked the town into lynching Hal instead. By the last 12 hours of that Day I was certain that you weren't scum, but I was nearly as certain that you weren't town (there was a small bit of doubt that you might have been town, but I was fairly sure you were 3rd party). What I hadn't decided yet was if killing you hurt the town more than it helped the town. I think if you have truthfully claimed you would have been dead without question, but if you had truthfully claimed to be PFK or generic 3rd party you might have survived. There were enough of us in the game who believe that lynching 3rd party early is a mislynch that you would have gotten off the hook.

I wish I had been around at the end of the Day, I would have likely changed my vote to Hal.


And to those who questioned why I wanted the masons to claim:

It wasn't so I wouldn't accidentally investigate a mason, it was so the doctor wouldn't have to waste their time protecting a mason, particularly one who is playing as anti town as pedescribe. Pede and Hawk are doing more to lead the town into the scums hands than anyone else in the game. Hell, if I could have lynched Hawk after he was dead and started posting in the game again I would have. This hasn't been a good game for either of them. Had the other masons claimed I would likely still be alive, and Diggit probably would be too and town would be in much better postition.

[Blaster Master]

I agree, mostly. I generally push for all PFK to be considered part of the Town's lynch burden, even if they are innocuous to the town. Town simply can't know that a PFK is not malicious. If there is no way of knowing, the PFK has to die. I think there is precedence for innocuous PFK, but even with precedence Town still has to lynch the PFK.

I hope that mine and peeker's role in this game, if nothing else, sets a precedence for town giving a lot more consideration to PFKs before lynching them. Although, I suppose PFK isn't an accurate term, since that necessarily implies exclusive wins as opposed to non-exclusive wins. Or has PFK just become synonymous with third-party regardless of win condition?

Here I disagree. For the same reason town would have to kill you if you came clean, Town has to lynch you in this case.

As has come up in other games, I can't agree here. A PFK is dangerous to the town if he can kill or if he is close to his win condition. As I said, the only evidence that I could kill was my admitted attempt against Cookies, but considering that all of the other kills on the other Nights had simpler explanations, I don't think that there was enough evidence to believe I would kill. As added incentive, I had given enough reason, I think, that I wouldn't be killing the following Night either, since I'd already said I'd use another power (nevermind that it wasn't exclusive of other powers, they didn't need to know that) and I was planning on using a non-killing power. So, the only reason I'd have for attempting a kill that Night is if I were one kill away from my win condition.

On a win condition note, if storyteller had designed a PFK that could steal the town's win in four Nights with imperfect play, then he did a bad job setting up the game. Maybe it's a bit meta-gamey, but really, with a game the size of this one, four Nights is pushing it, even with perfect play and a lot of luck, so considering that, if I were a killing role, which is what they all thought I probably was, and that I clearly had failed on at least one Night, any threat of me killing the following Night should have been pretty much gone.

So, I had zero incentive to kill that Night and I had virtually no threat of acheiving an exclusive win condition. Sure, I probably needed to be lynched, but lynching me should not have been a priority. Besides, I was providing information to the town, and I would need to keep doing so if I wanted to stay alive AND considering that the scum would have no idea I couldn't target them, and not knowing if I was actually PFK or a pro-town role, it's not completely unbelievable that the scum, not willing to play the chicken game with the Doctor, could have targetted me; very unlikely, yes, but not completely unbelievable.

I'm not sure if that is the case. Given a choice between you and Hal Briston, you are the better lynch. Both are lurkers and your posting on the last day revealed ample evidence of non-Townness. The choice looks pretty simple to me. I do agree with you that JSexton is a good place to look for scum though.

I suppose this is a matter of perspective. But, like I said, I really think JSexton gets a lot of the blame/credit for my lynch. I think if the hysteria hadn't been built up like it had, looking just at the evidence, it was basically the same against us, but I was almost certainly not scum, and given the reasons I listed above, I just don't think killing a PFK in that situation is advantageous to the town. Of course, YMMV.

Possibly, possibly not. The shorter days might simply be more efficient. If the day were longer then it probably would have just taken longer for the town to start harping on you. That is, you might have only had one day to work in either case. The beginning of the Day is just fluff no matter what. A case could be made that shorter days just moves up the juicy parts.

I was going to post when I did anyway. I would have posted sooner in the Day, but my schedule didn't permit. What I meant though, was that if I'd had more time between when I'd first posted and when I'd get lynched, I probably would have been able to get out of the lynch. Hell, I'd gone from far and away the lynch candidate to almost tied in the time I had, so another 24 hours or so, and I think I could have convinced enough people that I could have made it. I almost gave up a couple hours before, but I'd hoped MHaye may vote in my favor.

[NAF1138]

Possibly, possibly not. The shorter days might simply be more efficient. If the day were longer then it probably would have just taken longer for the town to start harping on you. That is, you might have only had one day to work in either case. The beginning of the Day is just fluff no matter what. A case could be made that shorter days just moves up the juicy parts.

If town is playing well then a short Day really hurts town. If town is playing lazy then it doesn't make any difference if the Day is longer. I think recent games have seen a lot of lazy play on towns part, but this game saw a lot of good play that was cut short by a too short Day. I think 24 more hours would have been ideal. Still fast enough to feel fast, but long enough that some decisions about the lynch can be made without everything being under the gun and sloppy.

I think it would have also helped the town to have every thread end with the lynch to the threads went Nigt/Day instead of Day/Night. Psycologically I think it would have felt more like the Night was an intro into the next Day rather than the Night was a time to do a post mortem and then forget about it. I hated having the lynch in the middle of the thread.


Oh and before I get spoiled:

JSexton
Mhaye
amrussel

are the people I think are most likely the remaining scum.

[Blaster Master]

My feeling is that anything that obfuscates your motivations is anti-Town. Changing styles is self-serving, that is, it helps you as an individual; since everyone else has no idea what team you are on, it helps you and hurts them. So killing you is the easier than having to decide whether each of your actions is scum-motivated or some fancy new "style."

And it is very much more anti-town than it is anti-scum, because you could be scum. And even when you are not, obfuscating whether or not you are a powerrole is a very minor facet. In other words, hiding that you are scum is much more anti-town than hiding whether or not you are a powerrole is anti-scum.

I see your point, but that's also where the game loses a lot of fun with me. There are some people that I've played with enough times that I have an easier time getting a read on them simply because I've seen how they play as scum and as town enough times that I can often get unquantifiable reads and, as long as I don't have to quantify them, I can play on them. For instance, in this game, I had a strong, unquantifiable, pro-town power role read on NAF, had he not claimed when he did, I would have killed him that Night, but fearing that he may have been doc-protected, I didn't.

So, sure his play is pro-town, but it also defeats one of the larger purposes of playing the game, which I like to look at a lot like poker, where it's all about reading people. A lot of my actions go into considering, not just how I'm reading people, but how other people will read and react to my actions. Obviously, I made some poor calculations in this game, and had endless bad luck (like all of my failed Night kills, and then hoping for NAF to be around and he wasn't, while not wanting JSexton around, and he was, etc.). But the less I have to work to determine other people's roles, and the less I have to work to play my role well based on a pre-established pattern, the less fun I have with the game.

As a point, I think one of the most fun games I ever played in was the Batman one. Obviously, we lost, but the enormous challenge of digging myself out of such a huge hole was a blast, and I think it showed through my play.

Finally, just if it eases your mind, I usually pick the general flavor of my style before I even find out what role I have. Sometimes it requires tweaking, and I was not happy with how I ended up feeling I had to play this one, because my IRL lack of time on Day One, combined with a being behind from the getgo, and being worried about how easily peeker would track me down, I don't think I had much of a choice other than to go from my intended style of lurky, to extremely lurky and very aggressive. Anyway, FWIW, I've already chosen my intended style for the next game I play in. :D

[NAF1138]

Whoa! Nice catch, Hal! Am gonna take a closer look at Mhaye.

Grumble. :mad:

[Blaster Master]

If town is playing well then a short Day really hurts town. If town is playing lazy then it doesn't make any difference if the Day is longer. I think recent games have seen a lot of lazy play on towns part, but this game saw a lot of good play that was cut short by a too short Day. I think 24 more hours would have been ideal. Still fast enough to feel fast, but long enough that some decisions about the lynch can be made without everything being under the gun and sloppy.

I think it would have also helped the town to have every thread end with the lynch to the threads went Nigt/Day instead of Day/Night. Psycologically I think it would have felt more like the Night was an intro into the next Day rather than the Night was a time to do a post mortem and then forget about it. I hated having the lynch in the middle of the thread.


Oh and before I get spoiled:

JSexton
Mhaye
amrussel

are the people I think are most likely the remaining scum.

Agreed on the discussion. I really do like the idea of allowing discussion to occur whenever, I do think it's a very pro-town thing that needs to be weighted properly, because it doesn't allow scum the opportunity to perhaps interupt discussions with kills, or just hope things cool down or whatever, and it allows town to keep momentum going, or immediately follow up on things. I would also agree that, in the future, if we do multiple threads again, Night/Day probably is a better division, though it's obviously no different at all if it's all in one thread, or there's seperate threads for Nights and Days.

As for the scum, I agree with the first two, though I think my read on MHaye is more of one of those unsubstantiable ones. For a third, I didn't have a good read on amrussel, which may mean something, and I had one on someone else, whose name escapes me right now, but that would all depend on how the first two come out.

[NAF1138]

I am thinking amrussel because he has been mentioned several times as suspicious but it hasn't ever gone anywhere. Lack of traction seems to be a fairly reliable scum tell. The way he reacted to my claim pinged me a bit too, though I don't actually remember how he reacted anymore, just that his reaction sent up a little flag in my head.

[Blaster Master]

Grumble. :mad:

Bah, it's hilarious! Then again, I don't have any emotional investment in the town since I already lost.

[sachertorte]

I disagree with sach on this one BlaM. All it does is make you like a new player every game. My problem with it is that you have recently been choosing anti-town playstyles. Ironically the only game of the last several I have seen you play in where you didn't pick an anti-town style of play was SDMB...where you were scum.
Wait, what?! How are we disagreeing here? How does allowing Blaster Master to play anti-town under the cover of "it my playstyle for this game" okay? If you can't tell what alignment Blaster Master is by the way he plays, then what else can you do? You're left with no choice but to kill him. He's certainly welcome to play anyway he likes, but he shouldn't be surprised if other players want to lynch him for it.

It wasn't so I wouldn't accidentally investigate a mason, it was so the doctor wouldn't have to waste their time protecting a mason, particularly one who is playing as anti town as pedescribe. Pede and Hawk are doing more to lead the town into the scums hands than anyone else in the game. Hell, if I could have lynched Hawk after he was dead and started posting in the game again I would have. This hasn't been a good game for either of them. Had the other masons claimed I would likely still be alive, and Diggit probably would be too and town would be in much better postition.
Interesting. I agree with your assessment of pedescribe and Hawkeyeop. The lack of flexibility was unnerving.
I'm curious about the Doctor now. I've never played Doctor so I wouldn't know, but my feeling is there is little to no reason to protect pedescribe over NAF.
However, I do see valid reasons to not protect NAF.
NAF has to die. If he can die by scum's nightkill all the better. The doctor may have decided that it was NAF's time to die. (Personally, I think it is too early for this tactic. Another investigation would have been nice.)
Also, the Doctor may have been protecting NAF for a few nights already and decided that scum would think "obviously the Doctor will protect NAF" so he protected someone else.



I hope that mine and peeker's role in this game, if nothing else, sets a precedence for town giving a lot more consideration to PFKs before lynching them. Although, I suppose PFK isn't an accurate term, since that necessarily implies exclusive wins as opposed to non-exclusive wins. Or has PFK just become synonymous with third-party regardless of win condition?
That actually was a point of argument I had with (Roosh? about a non-malicious survivor PFK) before. If you label someone PFK, then don't be surprised if Town refuses to believe the win condition is innocuous. It's in the freakin' name!

Some have applied PFK to any third party. I try not to, but I had forgotten that the SK's in this game were playing their own game within a game.

My personal preference would be to apply PFK to exclusive win third parties, but not everyone follows that convention.

As has come up in other games, I can't agree here. A PFK is dangerous to the town if he can kill or if he is close to his win condition. As I said, the only evidence that I could kill was my admitted attempt against Cookies, but considering that all of the other kills on the other Nights had simpler explanations, I don't think that there was enough evidence to believe I would kill. As added incentive, I had given enough reason, I think, that I wouldn't be killing the following Night either, since I'd already said I'd use another power (nevermind that it wasn't exclusive of other powers, they didn't need to know that) and I was planning on using a non-killing power. So, the only reason I'd have for attempting a kill that Night is if I were one kill away from my win condition.
You are assuming that Town knows that you are PFK. They didn't. At least in my mind, it was plausible for you to be scum as well. While the indicators were more likely for a thrid party player, the evidence was not conclusive. And given a choice between you and Hal Briston, the choice remains simple. If town were choosing between you and a strongly suspected scum, then, yes, I would agree with you. But Town wasn't dealing with a known scum or even a lightly suspected scum. They were dealing with a lurky Hal Briston. If it makes you feel better, I think Town should lynch Hal Briston ASAP now.

On a win condition note, if storyteller had designed a PFK that could steal the town's win in four Nights with imperfect play, then he did a bad job setting up the game. Maybe it's a bit meta-gamey, but really, with a game the size of this one, four Nights is pushing it, even with perfect play and a lot of luck, so considering that, if I were a killing role, which is what they all thought I probably was, and that I clearly had failed on at least one Night, any threat of me killing the following Night should have been pretty much gone. You openly stated you tired to kill Cookies! That's pretty strong evidence that you can kill. While it is unlikely and bad design for a PFK player to be capable of winning mid-game (especially when the win condition is secret). However:
1) Town didn't know you were PFK, you could have been scum
2) Town doesn't know that you have been "ineffective." you say you have been ineffective, but Town can't know that, and they can't trust your word when you say you have bad luck.
- On Night One three people died. One of these could easily have been your victim.
- On Night Two and Three one Townsperson died. Maybe scum killed them, maybe a third party killed them. Town doesn't know. You know you didn't succeed in killing, but town doesn't.


Oh and before I get spoiled:

JSexton
Mhaye
amrussel

are the people I think are most likely the remaining scum.

I also think JSexton is scum.
MHaye, I don't know about, but I would not oppose such a lynch since it is unlikely for him to generate sufficient data from which to make an opinion.
I'd also like Hal Briston killed for similar reasons. He's not even paying attention to the game.

amrussel, I think is town. His detailed analysis of players then sudden shift to vote for Hockey Monkey makes no sense for scum. Why open yourself to that kind of attack? If you want to vote for Hockey Monkey, make the case for Hockey Monkey. That kind of play is making me think Town.

[NAF1138]

Wait, what?! How are we disagreeing here? How does allowing Blaster Master to play anti-town under the cover of "it my playstyle for this game" okay? If you can't tell what alignment Blaster Master is by the way he plays, then what else can you do? You're left with no choice but to kill him. He's certainly welcome to play anyway he likes, but he shouldn't be surprised if other players want to lynch him for it.



Maybe we aren't disagreeing then. I don't think that the choice to change the way you play is inherantly anti-town as long as you pick a playstyle that is pro-town. Put chosing an anti-town playstyle just because you want to change the way you play is anti-town by deffinition.

So for me it isn't that he is changing his style, but rather how he is changing it.


Re: amrussel, of the three he is the one that would most likely change if I had more time to look at thing. Were I still in the game I would be continuing to push for MHaye's lynch and slowly start building a case against JSexton.

[Pleonast]

As has come up in other games, I can't agree here. A PFK is dangerous to the town if he can kill or if he is close to his win condition. As I said, the only evidence that I could kill was my admitted attempt against Cookies, but considering that all of the other kills on the other Nights had simpler explanations, I don't think that there was enough evidence to believe I would kill.Read what you wrote there: you admitted you attempted to kill another player. That's enough to convict you in my eyes.

I don't know about how others play, but when I evaluate another player that I don't know I can trust, I only look at their incriminating statements, not the others. Statements that could be interpreted positively for that player are self-serving and hence likely to be lies. Incriminating statements are not self-serving (given the general lynching tactics we use around here) and so are more likely to be truthful. So, for me, once you admitted that you attempted to kill another player, and combined with the other third party evidence from you, you needed to be lynched.

[storyteller0910]

From my perspective, this is a very tight game right now, with no clear favorite (this is in contrast to the last two games I've moderated, where one side has jumped out to a clear lead by Day Four or so.

The Scum took a pretty big body blow by losing macey and bufftabby so early; both had considerable powers that they never really used. And I think that the Scum are likely to lose one or two more players in the Days to come.

But the Town is playing in a very strange and unusual way. There have been a lot of claims, and as a result the Scum has been able to carefully tailor their actions and gambits toward the actual game situation. And the Scum still have access to a few specialized resources, including one with the potential to be very valuable to them if they use it properly. I don't think that it's out of the question that a power role or two is going to get lynched and I think the endgame is going to be extended, with a few well-hidden scum playing cat-and-mouse with a mostly- or all-vanilla group of Townies toward the game's end.

And I will say this: there is at least one Town power role baffling me with his/her choices so far. Very strange stuff.

[Blaster Master]

That actually was a point of argument I had with (Roosh? about a non-malicious survivor PFK) before. If you label someone PFK, then don't be surprised if Town refuses to believe the win condition is innocuous. It's in the freakin' name!

Some have applied PFK to any third party. I try not to, but I had forgotten that the SK's in this game were playing their own game within a game.

My personal preference would be to apply PFK to exclusive win third parties, but not everyone follows that convention.

Agreed. Maybe we can use this opportunity to coin a term for that since I'm sure it will be a useful part of the lexicon in the near future.

You are assuming that Town knows that you are PFK. They didn't. At least in my mind, it was plausible for you to be scum as well. While the indicators were more likely for a thrid party player, the evidence was not conclusive. And given a choice between you and Hal Briston, the choice remains simple. If town were choosing between you and a strongly suspected scum, then, yes, I would agree with you. But Town wasn't dealing with a known scum or even a lightly suspected scum. They were dealing with a lurky Hal Briston. If it makes you feel better, I think Town should lynch Hal Briston ASAP now.

Fair enough, and perhaps that was a part of my miscalculation. I thought it was pretty clear that I wasn't scum, or at least that the chance of me being scum was pretty small, and I felt like most people were voting for me because they thought I was PFK and not because they thought I was scum, where as Hal was being voted for for similar-ish reasons, but had a higher probability of being scum. So, I suppose it all depends on how dangerous you thought I was as a PFK. I was trying to get the notion across that I wasn't dangerous, even if I was a PFK without outright stating it, but I needed more time.

So yeah, I'm not surprised by the town's decision, and it's not so much that it was a bad decision, I just think that the available evidence, given a reasonable look by someone the town could reasonably trust, probably would have resulted in a Hal lynch. But, either way, as you correctly point out, it is a matter of perspective, and though I think I can put my frame of reference inside of what they know, it's not always that simple.

You openly stated you tired to kill Cookies! That's pretty strong evidence that you can kill. While it is unlikely and bad design for a PFK player to be capable of winning mid-game (especially when the win condition is secret). However:
1) Town didn't know you were PFK, you could have been scum
2) Town doesn't know that you have been "ineffective." you say you have been ineffective, but Town can't know that, and they can't trust your word when you say you have bad luck.
- On Night One three people died. One of these could easily have been your victim.
- On Night Two and Three one Townsperson died. Maybe scum killed them, maybe a third party killed them. Town doesn't know. You know you didn't succeed in killing, but town doesn't.

A couple points here that I couldn't effectively get across. One, there was already one SK and while a second is plausible, it is improbable, especially when the third kill is more reasonably explained by a Vig who, as I explained at the time, probably was trying to do the most townie thing by taking out the leading votee, but, in the following discussion, realized it resulted in more confusion.

You are correct about the Second Night but, again, I think a simpler explanation is a Vig chose not to kill, and the scum were successful than that the Doctor successfully blocked, and the other kill was a second SK or a Mafia hit.

So, yes, I admitted I attempted to kill Cookies, but I don't think an admission to attempting to kill someone, especially in the face of a complicated role-claim like I was making necessarily equates to a full-time killer. So you're face with me being something nebulous, probably a third-party, but with a bunch of different roles, or a full-time SK who is less probable, and demonstratably failed at least once, and likely twice. Plus, again, if I killed the next Night, I was signing my own death warrant which, for a general SK, means game over.

...Or maybe I'm just having too hard of a time putting myself in their frame of reference.

amrussel, I think is town. His detailed analysis of players then sudden shift to vote for Hockey Monkey makes no sense for scum. Why open yourself to that kind of attack? If you want to vote for Hockey Monkey, make the case for Hockey Monkey. That kind of play is making me think Town.

See, the whole scum would or wouldn't do something is always a WIFOM game. I tried it in this game with my whole question avoidance gambit, and no one gave it more than a second's thought. In this case, I think you may be doing the opposite and overthinking it a little bit. There's sometimes good reasons for vote shifts for scum, but they're just not immediately obvious because we don't have perfect information. Not to forget, scum have the ability to converse during the Day here. There could be any number of reasons for that sort of behavior, and because it's a mechanic we don't play with often, it's hard to judge what sort of stuff may do that. So, I think in this game, there's a lot less behind a "scum wouldn't do that".

However, that WAS the sort of thing I was hoping would come up, and didn't, with regard to my gambit. I was hoping someone would say "hey, if he can talk to the scum during the day, surely they would have been yelling at him if he was considering any other phrase besides 'I am town'".

[sachertorte]

From my perspective, this is a very tight game right now, with no clear favorite (this is in contrast to the last two games I've moderated, where one side has jumped out to a clear lead by Day Four or so.
I find that surprising. Town has mislynched once. The two SK's produced one(?) kill (of scum) and are now dead. I would have expected Town to be in a significant lead. The only glaring error I can see is the Chucara lynch/investigate combo which was bad, bad, bad. But other than that Town has had remarkably good results despite wasting time on remarkably bad arguments.

Speaking of bad arguments.
Town had sunk to a new low. The Cookies "total lost" saga was bad. But the MHaye "Hal is an Alpha Redshirt" is even worse. Is Hal even paying attention to this game at all? He certainly isn't paying attention to his own words.
Deep down I'm hoping this is a scum ploy, that MHaye and Hal are going to distract the town with an "honest mistake." Otherwise, I think I'll cry.

[NAF1138]

I find that surprising. Town has mislynched once. The two SK's produced one(?) kill (of scum) and are now dead. I would have expected Town to be in a significant lead. The only glaring error I can see is the Chucara lynch/investigate combo which was bad, bad, bad. But other than that Town has had remarkably good results despite wasting time on remarkably bad arguments.


Except the two SK lynches don't count towards the towns win condition and helped the scum while not gaining anything for the town. The Chucara thing was my fault, but I really did have some personal emergencies going on at the time and didn't expect chucara to be lynched.

[sachertorte]

See, the whole scum would or wouldn't do something is always a WIFOM game. I tried it in this game with my whole question avoidance gambit, and no one gave it more than a second's thought. In this case, I think you may be doing the opposite and overthinking it a little bit. There's sometimes good reasons for vote shifts for scum, but they're just not immediately obvious because we don't have perfect information. Not to forget, scum have the ability to converse during the Day here. There could be any number of reasons for that sort of behavior, and because it's a mechanic we don't play with often, it's hard to judge what sort of stuff may do that. So, I think in this game, there's a lot less behind a "scum wouldn't do that".

However, that WAS the sort of thing I was hoping would come up, and didn't, with regard to my gambit. I was hoping someone would say "hey, if he can talk to the scum during the day, surely they would have been yelling at him if he was considering any other phrase besides 'I am town'".
The problem I have with the quick dismissal of "scum wouldn't do that" is that all actions are not equal and words are far more important than what the action was. I find amrussel's recent analysis plausible. That is, not faked. Therefore, I find it more likely that amrussel is being a flaky townie, voting for whomever, rather than a scum who feels the need to justify each vote. It's just one data point among what should be many. But I haven't paid much attention to amrussel.

In fact, your failure to employ the "scum wouldn't do that" strategy bolsters the probability that amrussel is town rather than diminishes it. If you are scum and you see "scum wouldn't do that" fail to save anyone time and time again, the most recent of which netted a PFK. Would you employ that strategy the very next day?

And amrussel's is much more subtle. Someone may not even notice it.

But again, it's one data point. I lean town with amrussel; but I don't know shit.


As for non-anti-town third party, I'd suggest "Bystanders," which envokes the notion that they are innocuous to the primary struggle between Town and Scum. "Innocent Bystanders" takes the idea even further but feels like a club to me (but that might be a good thing). And of course the SK-SK game within a game was hardly "innocent."

[storyteller0910]

I find that surprising. Town has mislynched once. The two SK's produced one(?) kill (of scum) and are now dead. I would have expected Town to be in a significant lead. The only glaring error I can see is the Chucara lynch/investigate combo which was bad, bad, bad. But other than that Town has had remarkably good results despite wasting time on remarkably bad arguments.

All true. But I base my analysis not only on a simple consideration of where things stand now, but also on a more nuanced idea of where things are most likely headed. The Town has only one true mislynch in four Days, which is a strong record. But - and here I'm not spoiling much - the PFK low-hanging fruit is all gone now. From here on out it's just Town vs. Scum, and every non-scum lynch is a mislynch.

The Town has made a lot of moves that have opened opportunities for the remaining Scum. And the Scum are playing quite well. Remember, the Scum don't need to play to maximize mislynches; they need to play to be sure that at least one of them never gets killed. Some moves that set them back in the short term might serve them well in the long term in pursuit of that aim.

So on balance, I think I see about a 50% chance of either side winning from here. The Town had a quick start, but have handcuffed themselves in some ways for the mid-game. If the Scum dominate the next four Days, or so, you'll have a very tight endgame.

[NAF1138]

This is why I don't like town to catch scum in the first couple of Days. I can never say this in game because it will get me killed, but catching scum, particularly on a Day 1 lynch almost always hurts town. Very little information is generated and it makes town cocky and complacent. It would be great if town lynched scum Day 1 and then said, "Great, now we have a bit of advantage, let's maximise it because that advantage is going to go away quickly." Instead town always seems to say "Woohoo, we caught scum, we can relax for a Day or two."

[sachertorte]

Except the two SK lynches don't count towards the towns win condition and helped the scum while not gaining anything for the town. The Chucara thing was my fault, but I really did have some personal emergencies going on at the time and didn't expect chucara to be lynched.

As I stated earlier, I consider SK's as part of the Town's lynch burden. That is, Town should be expected to lynch SK's anyway so those aren't mislynches by any stretch. I suppose you could make the argument that the SK lynches are neutral and that the town is up one scum lynch and down one Town lynch (tie). However, getting through 4 lynches with only one mislynch really should count for something. So maybe 2-1 Town instead of 3-1 Town?

And I wouldn't put the blame on you NAF (well a teeny-tiny bit in that you shouldn't have been swayed by Chucara at all; heeeyyy, it was her fault, yeah, yeah :D). I was reading the thread too and I fully expected you to investigate Chucara based on what you had been saying. Town didn't even discuss the possibility that you would investigate Chucara. That was a big mistake.
Though as mistakes go it worked out pretty good since you would have come back with a FALSE which would have necessitated Chucara's lynch anyway.

[sachertorte]

If the Scum dominate the next four Days, or so, you'll have a very tight endgame.
To me that sounds like Town is ahead.

[storyteller0910]

To me that sounds like Town is ahead.

I think I'm not explaining myself properly.

I'll use a baseball metaphor.

Right now, the Mets are winning the game, 3-1.

But the Yankees have their cleanup hitter at the plate, with the bases loaded and nobody out, in the bottom of the fifth. And the Mets have already pulled their starter.

Sure, the Mets are ahead. But I'll bet if you calculated the odds of victory in this situation, it'd be equal for both sides.

Well, the Mets are the Town.

And of course, the Yankees are Scum.

[NAF1138]

As I stated earlier, I consider SK's as part of the Town's lynch burden. That is, Town should be expected to lynch SK's anyway so those aren't mislynches by any stretch. I suppose you could make the argument that the SK lynches are neutral and that the town is up one scum lynch and down one Town lynch (tie). However, getting through 4 lynches with only one mislynch really should count for something. So maybe 2-1 Town instead of 3-1 Town?



I think if were a traditional SK I would agree with you. Town didn't know it wasn't a traditional SK, so I am not totally faulting them, but we could have figured it out if we tried (and I think if we had a little more time we might have.) But as it is, all town did was get rid of two players who could have gotten rid of scum for them, as well as helped town shrink the lynch pool. And that is what town needs to be focused on in the middle game I think.

The first 3 Days or so should be about getting people to talk and getting anything that needs to be out out, removing anti-town distractions etc. Ideally you catch one scum somewhere in there. The middle game should be about closing up holes and preventing scum from having anywhere to hide, so you know what information you need to look at. Again, ideally you catch some scum. I think in a perfect world masons would all claim by Day 5 to aid in this process. There might be reasons for them to not, but I don't see many. Cops should all try to claim sometime in here also depending on the quality of their investigations. But by Day 6 at the latest. In this middle game period I think it can be disaster to kill third party. Kill them early or kill them late, but killing them in the middle is a waste of your resources. You have bigger fish to fry. The only time this changes is if you have reason to believe that you have killed more than half of the scum already. But once over half the scum are gone I think that you are in endgame anyway.

[Blaster Master]

I think I'm not explaining myself properly.

I'll use a baseball metaphor.

Right now, the Mets are winning the game, 3-1.

But the Yankees have their cleanup hitter at the plate, with the bases loaded and nobody out, in the bottom of the fifth. And the Mets have already pulled their starter.

Sure, the Mets are ahead. But I'll bet if you calculated the odds of victory in this situation, it'd be equal for both sides.

Well, the Mets are the Town.

And of course, the Yankees are Scum.

I'm not spoiled yet, but based on my feel of how things are going, I can see this being the case. If I'm right about JSexton, the scum are in a good position. He's in a place where a lot of the more analytical competition is out of it. As he stated in the post-game analysis for the SDMB game, everything he's done is pro-town, even if it's all also been pro-scum and, much like I felt where I was near the end of the SDMB game, in the position he's in, he's reasonably close to being unlynchable, because while more intuitive players can probably figure out who is scum better, they aren't good at making a case that will convince the other players, especially if they don't have the same read, and a more analytical player can often argue their ways out of lynches or convince people to lynch others.

Even worse, NAF's death, while it does confirm some information, doesn't really give anything that people weren't pretty much already depending on being true anyway. So the town has lost a lot of power roles, and the primary power roles left, it seems, are probably a Vig and a Doctor. And if I were to take a WAG, I'd imagine the doctor is the one that is baffling storyteller, which means the scum can, and probably will, generally be able to outplay him. At this point, if there is a Vig, he probably needs to take a close look and take some chances at nabbing people that he thinks are scum, but unlikely to be lynched. I think it probably only takes a couple of mislynches to put the game right back at even, and I think mislynches are pretty darn likely over the next couple of Days.

[Pleonast]

The problem I see with leaving known third parties alive is that you can never be sure of their motivations. Sure, they can kill scum, but there's no reason to expect they'll try to.

For example, take my play as the Vigilante in the SDMB mafia game. Was I a net plus or minus to the Town? I killed three Townies, 1 Third Party, and 1 Scum. I think I was a small net positive, but I know a case could be made that I was a negative. And I was killing as pro-Town as I could try. Do players really want to trust enough a non-Town player would too? Seems iffy.

For me, trusting a player who has admitted victory conditions different than me is too great a risk. Basically, a third party needs to make a strong case of what they'll do for me Now, or be killed. This goes if I'm Town or Scum--Third Parties are too risky from either point of view.

[sachertorte]

I think I'm not explaining myself properly.

I'll use a baseball metaphor.

Right now, the Mets are winning the game, 3-1.

But the Yankees have their cleanup hitter at the plate, with the bases loaded and nobody out, in the bottom of the fifth. And the Mets have already pulled their starter.

Sure, the Mets are ahead. But I'll bet if you calculated the odds of victory in this situation, it'd be equal for both sides.

Well, the Mets are the Town.

And of course, the Yankees are Scum.

Eh. I don't know the full set-up so I can't really discuss this with you. We'll see.

From my perspective the only ways for scum to have a "cleanup hitter" is if
1) Town allowed a scum to become "confirmed town"
2) Scum have superpowers

From what I see the only confirmed town are pedescribe (mason), Cookies (investigated by NAF), and Total Lost (via Cookies). If Cookies is some sort of un-nightkillable Godfather role then yes, Town is screwed and the game is pretty much over already. But that would be a pretty bad role to put in, which I don't think storyteller did.

Scum having superpowers to make up the deficit is a possibility as well. I don't know what's going on in that possible front, so I don't know. Town certainly had a bunch of power roles (Three big ones are dead already) so scum having powers should be expected. But scum powerroles shouldn't enable scum to kill extra townies beyond a reasonable small number. So scum still have to get mislynches on the board.

[Blaster Master]

I think if were a traditional SK I would agree with you. Town didn't know it wasn't a traditional SK, so I am not totally faulting them, but we could have figured it out if we tried (and I think if we had a little more time we might have.) But as it is, all town did was get rid of two players who could have gotten rid of scum for them, as well as helped town shrink the lynch pool. And that is what town needs to be focused on in the middle game I think.

The first 3 Days or so should be about getting people to talk and getting anything that needs to be out out, removing anti-town distractions etc. Ideally you catch one scum somewhere in there. The middle game should be about closing up holes and preventing scum from having anywhere to hide, so you know what information you need to look at. Again, ideally you catch some scum. I think in a perfect world masons would all claim by Day 5 to aid in this process. There might be reasons for them to not, but I don't see many. Cops should all try to claim sometime in here also depending on the quality of their investigations. But by Day 6 at the latest. In this middle game period I think it can be disaster to kill third party. Kill them early or kill them late, but killing them in the middle is a waste of your resources. You have bigger fish to fry. The only time this changes is if you have reason to believe that you have killed more than half of the scum already. But once over half the scum are gone I think that you are in endgame anyway.

Also, I agree with this pretty strongly, and I think you did a better job of stating it than my attempts. Catching scum is always a plus, but it's important that the town not let that distract them. While the game is technically won or lost on lynches, the real thing that matters is information. Lynching scum, but not getting information is often pretty much neutral. Imagine a game at 5-4, but where 4 of those town are confirmed or mostly confirmed (ie, won't be lynched, so if they're scum, you've already lost anyway), you're probably in a better situation than if it's 6-3, but having 2 or fewer confirmed.

The game really is mostly won or lost in the mid-game. So, while lynching a PFK is not necessarily a mislynch, in this case, it's a net negative for the town because killing me didn't help their town to scum ratio, and didn't net them any usable information.

[NAF1138]

The problem I see with leaving known third parties alive is that you can never be sure of their motivations. Sure, they can kill scum, but there's no reason to expect they'll try to.

For example, take my play as the Vigilante in the SDMB mafia game. Was I a net plus or minus to the Town? I killed three Townies, 1 Third Party, and 1 Scum. I think I was a small net positive, but I know a case could be made that I was a negative. And I was killing as pro-Town as I could try. Do players really want to trust enough a non-Town player would too? Seems iffy.

For me, trusting a player who has admitted victory conditions different than me is too great a risk. Basically, a third party needs to make a strong case of what they'll do for me Now, or be killed. This goes if I'm Town or Scum--Third Parties are too risky from either point of view.

Agreed, but I think it's a matter of timing when you make that kill. You don't HAVE to lynch a player right away. Kill them eventually, but at the moment all they can possibly do is help town and hurt scum, or worst case hurt town as much as they hurt scum. So why not wait until town is at a point when killing them is no longer a net neutral?

This is particularly true if a vig is still in the game. Really that is the reason why vigs are in the game, so town doesn't have to waste lynches on that sort of thing. You bring up your play as Vig in SDMB, but I don't think you hurt town as much as I think you think you did. You took out a distracting player early (this is good play for the vig, town didn't waste the lynch) and you killed other people you found suspicious. None of that was bad, town just didn't do anything with it to make it usefull.

So the SK might kill town. Too bad. The SK wasn't going to kill me since I had claimed and outlined my plan. I wasn't going to cause them any trouble, neither was Diggit. If they killed another power role that would hurt, but the odds were greated that they were going to kill vanilla or that they were going to kill scum.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying don't kill third party, I am just saying pick the time. Peekers lynch was a good lynch, for example, because it answered a lot of question about game set up and Night actions and happened early enough in the game that it wasn't a lynch that could have been better placed elsewhere. BlaM's lynch gained the town no real information (and it was obvious it wouldn't before he was lynched) and it took away the towns chance of lynching someone who would get them information. The timing for it was wrong.

[ShadowFacts]

See, the whole scum would or wouldn't do something is always a WIFOM game. I tried it in this game with my whole question avoidance gambit, and no one gave it more than a second's thought. <snip>

However, that WAS the sort of thing I was hoping would come up, and didn't, with regard to my gambit. I was hoping someone would say "hey, if he can talk to the scum during the day, surely they would have been yelling at him if he was considering any other phrase besides 'I am town'".

This is where I think you blew it. You were counting on a more nuanced analysis, whereas the general reaction (rightly, IMO) was: "Blaster's squirming like a worm on the hook." If you act dodgy and untrustworthy, don't expect a lot of friends.

I'm kinda bummed to see you go, though, as you had a lot of really cool powers I would have liked to see in action :cool:

[sachertorte]

The game really is mostly won or lost in the mid-game. So, while lynching a PFK is not necessarily a mislynch, in this case, it's a net negative for the town because killing me didn't help their town to scum ratio, and didn't net them any usable information.

I'm not sure if that is entirely the case. Prior to your speaking up, I was thinking JSexton was scum. During your lynch I thought JSexton was mostly pro-Town. But when you turned up non-Town and non-Scum, that put JSexton back into play (in my mind). Your alignment does give town information; especially once Town knows the alignment of Hal Briston (your competitor for lynch).

[ShadowFacts]

Agreed, but I think it's a matter of timing when you make that kill. You don't HAVE to lynch a player right away. Kill them eventually, but at the moment all they can possibly do is help town and hurt scum, or worst case hurt town as much as they hurt scum. So why not wait until town is at a point when killing them is no longer a net neutral?

This is particularly true if a vig is still in the game. Really that is the reason why vigs are in the game, so town doesn't have to waste lynches on that sort of thing. You bring up your play as Vig in SDMB, but I don't think you hurt town as much as I think you think you did. You took out a distracting player early (this is good play for the vig, town didn't waste the lynch) and you killed other people you found suspicious. None of that was bad, town just didn't do anything with it to make it usefull.

So the SK might kill town. Too bad. The SK wasn't going to kill me since I had claimed and outlined my plan. I wasn't going to cause them any trouble, neither was Diggit. If they killed another power role that would hurt, but the odds were greated that they were going to kill vanilla or that they were going to kill scum.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying don't kill third party, I am just saying pick the time. Peekers lynch was a good lynch, for example, because it answered a lot of question about game set up and Night actions and happened early enough in the game that it wasn't a lynch that could have been better placed elsewhere. BlaM's lynch gained the town no real information (and it was obvious it wouldn't before he was lynched) and it took away the towns chance of lynching someone who would get them information. The timing for it was wrong.

If we're talking straight serial killer, you may be right, but BlaM was not that. Knowing what BlaM's powers were, though, he had the potential to cause a LOT of confusion (among other things) on top of just the kills themselves, so IMO they may have done the right thing, without knowing it. Sorry if I'm dangling fruit you can't reach, but you may want to re-examine your position on this in light of his actual powers.

[storyteller0910]

Actually, BLAM, Shadow Facts' latest post reminds me: I was very surprised that you took the approach you did with your role. You attempted to use only your most direct powers, even though many of the others had a better chance of winning. You could have used the power to create a Bomb on either NAF or Diggit, and have been rewarded with a posthumous kill of a Scum player, for instance. And I'm especially surprised you didn't use power #10 right at the beginning of the game.

[Blaster Master]

This is where I think you blew it. You were counting on a more nuanced analysis, whereas the general reaction (rightly, IMO) was: "Blaster's squirming like a worm on the hook." If you act dodgy and untrustworthy, don't expect a lot of friends.

I'm kinda bummed to see you go, though, as you had a lot of really cool powers I would have liked to see in action :cool:

Oh, I had some REALLY nifty powers that I couldn't wait to get into play. In fact, chances are that my powers would have been a net gain for the town since I was outted, because I'd at least have to try to look like I was acting pro-town until I got my points above peeker's. Then again, I find it more regretable that I didn't get the kill on Cookies because, if it had gone through, and she was worth what I thought she was, then I had a completely different plan I would have put into motion, and I'm sure the resulting chaos would have been an enormous amount of fun for everyone watching.

And, since I hinted at it, I expected that Cookies was one of the "special" players worth three points, which would have meant if it went through, and she was worth that, I'd have won right there. So, unless storyteller would have removed me from the game, I was planning on probably doing a mostly true claim, and then pretty much playing by whatever whim fit me. My resultant claim wasn't completely put together because I expected it to be a low probability. I still can't, for the life of me, figure out why anyone would want to protect her, town or scum. I suppose I'll get that answer when I get spoiled.

[Blaster Master]

Actually, BLAM, Shadow Facts' latest post reminds me: I was very surprised that you took the approach you did with your role. You attempted to use only your most direct powers, even though many of the others had a better chance of winning. You could have used the power to create a Bomb on either NAF or Diggit, and have been rewarded with a posthumous kill of a Scum player, for instance. And I'm especially surprised you didn't use power #10 right at the beginning of the game.

...too spoilery, will redit and repost...

[Blaster Master]

I had given a lot of thought to the utility of various powers, and I actually gave a lot of thought to using #10 right away. The thing is, if I chose wrong, I essentially wasted the Night, and if I waited too long, I would never get to use it. I didn't trust my reads right away, so I decided not to use it. I was planning on using it Last Night but, obviously, I didn't quite make it that far.

As for Night Two, I considered using a power to take advantage of the suspicion of Chucara (#2). I was fairly certain that she would get lynched, but I was also worried that her suspicion of me would make that backfire. On further thought, I probably should have used #5 on her and, but I was rushed when I was making my decision and, because I was behind and worried my lurking would be coming up, I figured getting points on the board was more important. Problem was, there was no good reason for me to suspect that my alternate target inelligble. I am slightly bitter about that, for reasons I can't go into here. ;)

I didn't use the bomb power because, I actually thought the reciprocal kill wouldn't work against scum, so it didn't seem like a very useful power to me. Plus, I figured Cookies was one of the special targets worth 3 points, was very unlikely to be protected, and would probably win me the game right there, especially with my low life expectancy, I figured I really didn't have much of a choice but to make sure I got credit for her death.

So, I dunno. Part of the problem with having a role as complicated as the one that I had was that it's highly unlikely to be played like expected, so it's difficult to balance, and the obvious problem that, with the complexity, there was stuff I had a wrong idea about, but didn't have an inkling that I had it wrong, so had no reason to ask for clarification.


I hope I got out all of the potential spoiler information.

[sachertorte]

So, I dunno. Part of the problem with having a role as complicated as the one that I had was that it's highly unlikely to be played like expected, so it's difficult to balance, and the obvious problem that, with the complexity, there was stuff I had a wrong idea about, but didn't have an inkling that I had it wrong, so had no reason to ask for clarification.

I'm with you there. In the business it's called emergent properties and comes from having simple rules that combine to create complexity rather than using bulky complex properties from the start.

Not that emergent properties would be easy to balance either, but I find it more fascinating.

[Blaster Master]

I'm with you there. In the business it's called emergent properties and comes from having simple rules that combine to create complexity rather than using bulky complex properties from the start.

Not that emergent properties would be easy to balance either, but I find it more fascinating.

Hmm... that's a concept I hadn't considered applying to Mafia before, and you'd think I would have, what, with all of my obnoxious math posts. BTW, to what business are you refering exactly?

And, don't get me wrong, I loved the role, and I wish I'd really had time to really play it out to it's potential. I'd really like to see something similar in a future game.

[ToeJam]

As a point, I think one of the most fun games I ever played in was the Batman one. Obviously, we lost, but the enormous challenge of digging myself out of such a huge hole was a blast, and I think it showed through my play.

Thanks for remembering that game. :)

I've actually got another one coming up soon on the Off-board threads, and I'm hoping you'll come over and join us for that one (that invitation goes to the whole lot of you guys actually. I hope it's a fun game, but it's going to be a really... interesting game. More Storyteller playing style than Rooshian in mind of how I am making the stuff go around (Storyteller games are Logical, Rooshian Games are Batman- Lots of haphazardly pieced together things, with lots of emphasis on luck).
We'll see how it goes.


And to the one who mentioned it before: Yeah, I just came up with the phrase PFK to describe anyone who wasn't Town or Scum or included in that win condition. There was a big discussion at the end of Batman for it, because I believe one of the survivors was labeled by me a PFK, and it was back and forth should a Survivor be called a PFK or not and the implications of that.

For reference now, I view PFK as anyone who can win by another means other than by Town or Scum. I realized that a Survivor can just be called a Survivor, but in this day and age of powers, games within a game, and hidden win conditions and stuff, I like overlaps... so I'm not sure how I'd label it in the future, but I liked Town/Scum/PFK with PFK's being benign or malicious but I just keep it as a way to say "other" however the Town does have a HUGELY negative reaction to a PFK... which is why I think lying CAN be pro-town in some ways. If you're a survivor or you're trying to act like one, the best thing sometimes to do is just lie about your win conditions.

Unfortunately, BlaM your abilities and claim of Freddy Kreuger kinda made it hard to take you seriously as anything else but well... freddy Kreuger the Serial killer. Freddy the Vig just wouldn't have felt right I think. And that whole bit with the bad dreams was just unlucky. I think that's what hurt the most for ya.

[Pleonast]

I don't like the term "PFK" and I don't use it. I play for keeps no matter what side I'm on. I prefer the term "third party" for a player who does not have the scum or town victory conditions. "Survivor" would be a type of third party that wins if they've survived to the end of the game.

[NAF1138]

Personally I have come to use PFK only to describe roles that are solo game stealers. To me, when I say PFK I mean a role that wins on it's own and take the win away from everyone else. This is more precise than the way many others use it, so I generally use Third Party as my descriptor and explain what I mean by PFK when I use it.

Unless I don't want to for some reason.

[sachertorte]

Hmm... that's a concept I hadn't considered applying to Mafia before, and you'd think I would have, what, with all of my obnoxious math posts. BTW, to what business are you refering exactly?

And, don't get me wrong, I loved the role, and I wish I'd really had time to really play it out to it's potential. I'd really like to see something similar in a future game.

I used to do research in Complex Adaptive Systems. I don't anymore. It's kind of a crap field when not done correctly.

Emergent properties in Mafia would be quite difficult. Especially with two main factions. The confusion and complexity would strongly lean towards scum's favor since they could compare notes in a secure setting.
Pleonast's Conspiracy games are probably the closest thing we have to emergence as there are multiple factions with simple night actions that could interact in unexpected ways.

I've got some ideas for crazy mafia game setups along these lines, but I haven't thought them through completely yet.


And to the one who mentioned it before: Yeah, I just came up with the phrase PFK to describe anyone who wasn't Town or Scum or included in that win condition. There was a big discussion at the end of Batman for it, because I believe one of the survivors was labeled by me a PFK, and it was back and forth should a Survivor be called a PFK or not and the implications of that.

I think the issue is that the phrase "playing for keeps" implies exclusive win condition. If they are innocuous, then they aren't really playing for keeps are they? Innocuous third parties can share!

And the PFK situation in Batman was mainly about labeling dotchan PFK and having her investigate as such while being an innocuous survivor. From the Town perspective this is not so terrible. From Dotchan's perspective, I thought it was hugely sucky since she was essentially a miller-survivor. Needs to live to the end of the game, does not hurt the Town, but investigates as PFK. Not a whole lot she can do.

[ToeJam]

Yeah, I do tend to do that though... i like screwing over certain roles. =(

I view it as the game truly is a random assortment, where getting to be vanilla isn't always a bad thing, you could get something WORSE than vanilla just as much as you could get something BETTER than vanilla.... So I like sometimes making roles where it's just really hard to win (Almost all the PFKs in the Batman game had some sort of thing like that actually.... That's why there were so many of them each on their own, it would have been insane if one of them actually won. Make's Rysto's SK win all the more impressive (as there was another player out there in that game who knew his alignment, and he had to deal with that the whole game).

So that's my warning usually- sometimes the game roless are designed to suck and not because I didn't think about it. There's gotta be a challenge in there sometimes!

[Blaster Master]

I use PFK in much the same way the NAF does and, frankly, I like having a term liek that because it is concise, describes something fairly complex in only three characters, and it's something that adds flavor to our particular set of mafia games. In a way, we're making up some of the rules as we're going along, and it is part of what makes it an engrossing experience.

And the PFK situation in Batman was mainly about labeling dotchan PFK and having her investigate as such while being an innocuous survivor. From the Town perspective this is not so terrible. From Dotchan's perspective, I thought it was hugely sucky since she was essentially a miller-survivor. Needs to live to the end of the game, does not hurt the Town, but investigates as PFK. Not a whole lot she can do.

My main issue with the PFK situation in Batman was that the town, and by extension Dotchan, really had no way of knowing what PFK meant. Because of the ordering of the deaths, it was clear to town that PFK meant win stealer; thus, anyone who was PFK needed to be eliminated. Dotchan, however, didn't know anything about the other PFKs, they they weren't harmless, and thus wasn't able to prepare for it and had no game mechanic to help prove her point. It's one thing if she knew she was some kind of miller sort of role, but not even knowing that for sure is rough. Then again, it's forgivable because it was a Gastardly game, so balance and all that stuff can be a negative in that sort of situation.

It's like when I was reading about the miller role and read of some variations where a miller doesn't even know he investigates as scum, he just thinks he's vanilla town. Imagine the utter chaos when he thinks the investigator is lying, but gets lynched, they find out he's town, and then the investigator gets lynched, and then the town is utterly baffled. I'm sure it's great fun to see, and great for, as Ro0sh so elloquently put it, Rooshian type games, but the lack of a game mechanic to handle it, even if it's just that role knowing how he'd investigate, just doesn't fit with the epic battle of wits that I see mafia to be.


Speaking of which, I have some nifty ideas for a game, and I'd probably be able to run one on here in the next cycle or two, but I think I need some help with balance, and probably with running the game since my schedule often doesn't afford me the opportunity to be around. Wasn't someone working on an all-star game?

[NAF1138]

Pollux was working on something like a "history of SDMB mafia" game, though I am not sure that's what you mean.

I would be happy to look at your setup with you, BlaM. The ammount of work I am getting done at my office today, now that I am not in a game, is really fairly shocking; so I might sit out the next game or two anyway.

[Blaster Master]

Pollux was working on something like a "history of SDMB mafia" game, though I am not sure that's what you mean.

Yes, I really like that idea. I have only heard that he was working on it, but haven't actually heard him say anything about it. The best part is, we can have fun and still keep things pretty mysterious. Like, if storyteller is a role, is he the godfather, since he's famous for that? We could just as easily make him vanilla, or a mason, or detective or third party, with just a little bit of color. Need a miller? Maybe Dotchan can fill that role. However it's sliced, there's endless possibilities, and I think it might be as much fun to see it as a review of all the games we've played, as it would be to be in it.

I would be happy to look at your setup with you, BlaM. The ammount of work I am getting done at my office today, now that I am not in a game, is really fairly shocking; so I might sit out the next game or two anyway.

Most of my ideas are pretty nebulous. I was throwing around an idea 6 months or so ago that would have had a closed voting system and would have been themed around the election (ie, anyone can say they're voting for whatever, but would vote by secret ballot), but I was running into a lot of problems with just the tinkering I was doing (eg, the town would lose a lot of information by not being able to hold people accountable for votes), and ultimately didn't have enough time to put it together. Plus, we had plenty of other gimmick games going on around that time, so I felt like it might have been overkill. OTOH, having that gimmick afforded me the opportunity to invent some roles that would only work with that sort of mechanic like vote changes and trackers, or ballot stuffers, and it would introduce some interesting strategy because people could lie about their votes, but if they're the only one who does, it'd be pretty easy to know who did.

So, mostly, it's been more that I have thought of some new roles, or I'm interested in seeing how certain roles might play with other ones. I have a couple that I'd definitely want to include, but I don't want to mention them since they need to be a surprise. I want to have some nice twists to it, but I don't want it be to the point where it's questionable whether or not it's really the same sort of game we're use to playing.

[Blaster Master]

And in other news, it's about damn time that they started looking at JSexton, of course, they're not looking at my arguments against him at all, but at least he's being looked at.

[NAF1138]

So, mostly, it's been more that I have thought of some new roles, or I'm interested in seeing how certain roles might play with other ones. I have a couple that I'd definitely want to include, but I don't want to mention them since they need to be a surprise. I want to have some nice twists to it, but I don't want it be to the point where it's questionable whether or not it's really the same sort of game we're use to playing.

Interesting...some of that sound like it might work for the game Hoopy, Rysto and myself are working up. (I know, I know we have been talking about it for forever and a day, but it's comming along. We had made some good progress on it before Christmas and then we kind of stalled. I should go run those numbers I promised to put together.)

I am not a huge theme person myself, more a mechanics one. All of my games (except Firefly) have had the theme come from the mechanics and not the other way around. So I may or may not be helpful there, depending on what you are looking for. But I think that I have gotten fairly good at putting these things together and seeing what unusual roles will do to the game. Shoot me a PM if you are interested. I am happy to be a sounding board at the very least.

[sachertorte]

I have an idea for a game as well. Similarly, I'm more interested in the mechanics rather than the color. I plan to simulate the setup to get a better feel for the balance issues.

I kind of want to play a game, but even just watching the games develops has me frustrated.

[ToeJam]

Saach... you're welcome to join my Game :D
But it might frustrate you. Trying to balance it enough for Story type players is hard enough, but You, I cannot do heh- because let's face it- i love frustration. I revel in it. I hate when the town gets complacent, and I always love having new twists in there to as NAF i think it was put it- to revolutionize the game of Mafia. First came the lying townies, then the Shoes, then the Threat of PFKs and Dirty Masons... who knows what's next? ;)

That said, I'm terrible at balancing games, but I LOVE to come up with odd mechanics and stuff. I threw some ideas out at Storyteller for this one, and I'm pleased to see some of them used, though you may not agree BlaM, dying so early ;)
And since I dont have the time to PLAY in games anymore, I kinda like throwing out some ideas to help out the rest of you guys, as then I kinda wanna follow the game more and I'll read along at least.

So if you ever need odd mechanics or random ideas/roles in the sense of abilities, feel free to ask me for that sort of thing (aka: Rooshian Style Mafia), but if you nice balanced games and structure, you're better off asking Sach, Jsexton, or someone else who knows that sort of thing more.

[Hoopy Frood]

So slightly off topic, my girlfriend's idea of a fun Valentine's Day is a home-cooked meal and to sit around and watch zombie movies.

So I just purchased the trilogy from Amazon (I've seen them all multiple times, but I've never owned them). We're also going to watch Shaun of the Dead (which I haven't seen, yet).

[ToeJam]

Ah, SotD is BRILLIANT.

Make sure you get to watch Hot fuzz too if you enjoyed this film

[Pollux Oil]

Pollux was working on something like a "history of SDMB mafia" game, though I am not sure that's what you mean.

Yeah, I still have it sort of planned out and want to host it, but if I host it it's going to be a bit dated as I haven't really been able to pay attention to the last couple games here on the Dope and the general game I had planned out before the T2 game was even a twinkle in pedescribe's eye. Blam, if you want to do it go ahead but I'll probably sniffle a little and cry myself to sleep over all my lost ideas. :p

[ToeJam]

Why don't you do it together? Compromise!

[Pollux Oil]

Well my idea borders on Gastardly with some of the roles I've cooked up.

[ToeJam]

I think Blam could pull of Gastardly. I'd love to see him try....

[Hoopy Frood]

Make sure you get to watch Hot fuzz too if you enjoyed this film

I've seen Hot Fuzz already. It was very good. According to my girlfriend, though, SotD is better.

[NAF1138]

This (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10692133&postcount=100) was an excelent post by amrussel. I don't know anyone's alignment, but he is very right that brewha is displaying scum thought process in that post. Maybe not enough to convict him, yet, but maybe it will cause someone to go look closer at other things brewha has said.

[NAF1138]

Also, Hoopy. I love Hot Fuzz. I love it enough that I own a copy, but Shawn of the Dead is better than Hot Fuzz in almost every concievable way. It is like Monty Python and the Holy Grail compaired to the Meaning of Life. Both are good movies, but Holy Grail is really much better. (Maybe Life of Brian is the better comparison, but I am not sure that I see a clearly better movie between those two.)

[storyteller0910]

Stay tuned, anyone who's getting a little bored. I believe all hell will be breaking loose in the next little chunk of this game.

[NAF1138]

Not bored at all. Though a little bit of all hell breaking loose should be fun.

[CatInASuit]

storyteller, any chance of posting the Night actions and any other interesting PM's to the spoiler board?

I am curious to see what kinds of hell are going to occur. :)

[sachertorte]

MHaye's acceptance of Hal Briston's charge against him regarding knowing that Hal Briston is an Alpha has me puzzled. MHaye states that he is always busy rereading the thread. If this is the case, then he should have come across Hal Briston's Alpha claim by now. The conclusion I'm reaching is that MHaye is not re-reading the thread as he states he is. That would be an indicator that MHaye is scum.

The way I see it, is if MHaye were town, he would have brought up the discrepancy by now. My main problem with this thesis is that no one has pointed out the error. Surely someone is re-reading things?

Or not. I guess.

----

On a sidenote: I've simulated my game set-up and it is ready to go. It's rather simple, with a twist or two. The only thing holding me back from doing it myself is I don't like setting up off-board communication channels.
If someone wants to run a game, I have one that could be run quickly and painlessly. With twists! Did I mention the twists?

[NAF1138]

How about this, I will give you my offboard communications channels, but you run the game?

I don't really want to run a game right now, but I have a board that isn't getting much use at the moment that is yours if you want it.

[sachertorte]

How about this, I will give you my offboard communications channels, but you run the game?

I don't really want to run a game right now, but I have a board that isn't getting much use at the moment that is yours if you want it.

Sounds like a plan to me.
I wonder when people will start clamoring for a new game to start.




As for the current game:
The more I stew on it, the more I think Hal Briston is town. I can't even articulate why, I just feel that way.
I think it has something to do with the "Alpha Redshirt" thing. I can't see a scummy Hal Briston doing that. One, I don't think scum would have done a full claim like that. Scum would more likely claim "I am Town" and leave the door open for a future power role claim should the need arise. Two, scum wouldn't jump on MHaye for the "Alpha" thing. At least I think not.

Why do people want to lynch Hal Briston again? Is it because Hal nearly died yesterday and they think scum jumped on Blaster Master to save Hal? I could get behind that reasoning I suppose, but I'm not seeing that as the case against him. I don't understand these people.

[Pleonast]

There's a certain justice in that perception. What I'm doing is reading over someone and asking myself, "Is what they've done consistent with their being scum?" If I find something that isn't - for example, special ed crafting DiggitCamara's question for TF, which was expected to reveal a new scum - then I consider them more likely to be townie. If I ever find something that's just obviously scum, then I'll make a song and dance about it. Usually, I find some stuff that could be scum motivated. And then I point it out, challenge them on it and see what they say. The basic idea is to start with the hypothesis that someone is scum and try to falsify it. Because there's no such thing as scum behaviour, I do end up finding apparently contradictory behaviours scummy. But that's bound to happen. Remember the whole discussion about "scum would never do that"? If I suspect Rapier42 for repeatedly being on bandwagons, it doesn't mean that I can't suspect Nanook for lurking, or you for being on one and then failing to vote for two straight Days.He has a good point here. A corollary of "scum would never do that" being false is that it is possible for "opposite" behaviors to both be scummy. In the end, this means that discerning motivation is the important factor.

If I were still in the game, I'd be pushing to lynch the serial non-voters and the other non-contributors. I'm not doing careful reading at this point, but my impressions are: MHaye's excuse of "I've always played this way" does not absolve him of its anti-Town slant. JSexton seems to be contributing little yet stirring up the pot with his few posts. Classic scum strategy. Nanook and Hal, I'd call pure lurkers. They need to start showing some active scum hunting or be up on the block.

The "confirmed" Townies need to be more active. And they need to decide among themselves who they'll vote for as a block. Especially for the claimed Masons--I'm embarrassed. Once Masons have claimed, they need to vote together.

[sachertorte]

To take Pleonast's point further, JSexton should know that. Or rather, JSexton does know that and is purposefully ignoring it to go after amrussell who seems to be the only player looking at motivations right now. Gee, who would do such a thing?

[NAF1138]

Yeah, I am taking amrussel of my scum list for the moment based on his play toDay. He might be scum still, but if he is he is doing a damn fine job of doing town's job for them. He has had some great posts this Day.

JSexton, if he isn't scum...then I don't know what to do with that.

Same with MHaye.

[NAF1138]

Thoughts on MHayes claim?

My gut reaction is made up scum board BS, but maybe I am wrong. He did a crap job of protecting two rather important players if it is true.

[sachertorte]

I agree with NAF. My personal feeling is that a last hour roleclaim should be ignored. Townies tend not to let things get that far. Scum benefit greatly from the quick unvote and lack of time to think about the roleclaim and who to lynch for the day. Everything MHaye did was anti-Town, including the roleclaim.

The town-knee-jerk reaction to a roleclaim is alive and well though.

[sachertorte]

NAF makes a very good point. Based on the roleclaim, there is NO reason for NAF to be dead. MHaye could protect NAF and himself at the same time. Way over powered, and way inconsistent with what happened in the game.

MHaye is either a really bad Townie or scum.
I say scum.

This is why last minute roleclaims are so anti-Town -- no time for critical thinking. Not that this bunch spends too much time dwelling on this game.

I actually was expecting MHaye to "last minute" point out Hal Briston's error. I can't believe no one has seen Hal Briston's actual roleclaim. No Townies saw it, and (if MHaye is scum) no scum saw it. I could see MHaye avoiding lynch with a well timed, "Hey, you did claim Alpha!"

[peekercpa]

Well since I melted down in this game I would imagine that any input that I have is totally discounted (as well as other previous actions). However, I agree with sach that it seems that the current strategy is to come from behind as a vote leader, make a late claim and then have votes shift randomly to someone else. Kind of a poor overall strategy. Of course if you are scum this plays right into your hand.

Make late analysis/claim/vote without any chance to dissect before the end of day. Nah, scum would never do that.

[sachertorte]

Well since I melted down in this game I would imagine that any input that I have is totally discounted

Dude, you won. If we're discounting anyone, it's going to be Blaster Master :D

[ToeJam]

Damn you Storyteller....

Fuck the Patriots, and fuck Asante Samuel.
God... I didn't need to relieve these memories.

[Hal Briston]

I actually was expecting MHaye to "last minute" point out Hal Briston's error. I can't believe no one has seen Hal Briston's actual roleclaim. No Townies saw it, and (if MHaye is scum) no scum saw it. I could see MHaye avoiding lynch with a well timed, "Hey, you did claim Alpha!"Huh? Am I missing something? That went down exactly as I said, unless for some reason a search on my posts isn't turning up any instances where I used the word "Alpha" until I pointed out MHaye's potential slip.

[Hal Briston]

And now that I've hunted it down:
First off, my claim: I am vanilla town.Nothing about being an Alpha Redshirt there, so I'm curious as to what this error of mine was.

[ToeJam]

Why is Dotchan unvoting Mhaye right now?
What changed by the Death of Hal to make her feel that Mhaye is telling the truth all of a sudden? GAH! Lynch her for information!

[sachertorte]

And now that I've hunted it down:
Nothing about being an Alpha Redshirt there, so I'm curious as to what this error of mine was.

That's weird. I could have sworn we had some discussion about your claim revealing more information than was asked for.

My bad.

[storyteller0910]

Why is Dotchan unvoting Mhaye right now?
What changed by the Death of Hal to make her feel that Mhaye is telling the truth all of a sudden? GAH! Lynch her for information!


Roosh, I think some day I'm going to nonrandomly assign you and dot to mason roles, just to see if she trips your scumdar even then.

[sachertorte]

How depressing! My whole reasoning for thinking that Hal Briston was town was based on my erroneous recollections.

But now that Hal has me straightened out, it's even more clear that MHaye is scum. I can't think of any other explanations.
1) Late roleclaim
2) over-powered role claim
3) role claim inconsistent with NAF's death
4) Knew Hal was an Alpha Redshirt

The fourth point seems like a coincidence as I don't know why a scummy MHaye would know Hal Briston was an Alpha. But the other factors clearly point to scumhood. Gosh, I hope I'm not wrong.
Does anyone see points where I've fabricated evidence again?



I'm curious as to whether or not the ability to talk during the Day is having a profound effect on this game. Scum being able to coordinate during the Day (position votes, time a false roleclaim, coordinate who switches to whom) are all very powerful tools for scum that are not usually available. This isn't something I would have normally thought about, but I think now I see why typical game set-up forbids scum discussion during the Day.

[Blaster Master]

Dude, you won. If we're discounting anyone, it's going to be Blaster Master :D

Discount me all you want. If I'm half price, does that mean I get to play two roles in the next game?

[Blaster Master]

I'm curious as to whether or not the ability to talk during the Day is having a profound effect on this game. Scum being able to coordinate during the Day (position votes, time a false roleclaim, coordinate who switches to whom) are all very powerful tools for scum that are not usually available. This isn't something I would have normally thought about, but I think now I see why typical game set-up forbids scum discussion during the Day.

It is a scum advantage; in fact, I'd say it's a pretty big one, but it's something that can be balanced out by adding other factors, like additional town power roles or letting some pro-town factions talk as well (like Masons).

However, it is something that can be appropriately mitigated by good town cooperation. A large part of what led me to my scum list (which, now that I've been spoiled, I cannot say whether it was accurate or not) was seeing JSexton's lead, and how the others were following it. Rather than it being a "look at the scum pile up", which is more obvious, you get to see how scum adjust in a way that is consistent with them communicating. You'll see things going on that require a high degree of coordination, like passing the ball on aggression, or an abrupt change in tactics or opinions.

The problem is, I don't think any of the town is really giving any of that any consideration and they're looking for traditional scum tells. Slips and tells are going to be more subtle because the other scum can point out things as they happen and they can make adjustments immediately as opposed to discussing problems only at Night. Everyone is looking for the smoking gun, and it just isn't there.

[sachertorte]

I mostly agree. But...

I don't think Masons communicating is an adequate counterbalance. Masons don't need to coordinate much of anything. Its a nice perk, but it isn't like Masons can set a trap for scum by being able to talk during the Day.

Scum however can evolve elaborate schemes. Furthermore, a more seasoned player can directly tell other scum what to do. Sure, they could do the same thing at night, but Daytalking enables real-time coordination to the situations. That is, scum #2 and #3 are voting for #1. The plan: 1 will claim and 2 and 3 will jump off the wagon. #2 will vote for X and #3 will vote for Y.
This type of coordination can't happen during the night for the next Day.

And Masons have no need for such coordination. They don't need to deceive anyone.

As for looking for coordination, I suppose you are correct, but I'm not sure if one could really point to anything and be certain that there is coordination there. The point of coordination is that it appears seamless.

ETA: To take the idea further: I thought it would be fun to not allow scum to talk AT ALL. Therefore all coordination would have to be ad hoc. I think that would be more fun for all involved. Perhaps more frustrating for scum, but hopefully a fun challenge. Added benefit: don't have to set up communication boards!

[CatInASuit]

Speaking purely from the Terminator game, it was a very big scum advantage being able to talk during the Day, but then I think we used it well to plan what we were going to do.

The main problem was that not everyone was on US time, so using it to precisely co-ordinate lynches was not realistic. However we certainly use it to strategise, and more importantly run ideas past other scum to allow us to work out the issues in advance. We usually had a Day by Day game plan of what people would do and in general it was good. It also allowed us to try and avoid overlapping on people and try and keep us as solo as possible. It certainly helped in getting NBC lynched at the right time. :)

[ShadowFacts]

Speaking purely from the Terminator game, it was a very big scum advantage being able to talk during the Day, but then I think we used it well to plan what we were going to do.

The main problem was that not everyone was on US time, so using it to precisely co-ordinate lynches was not realistic. However we certainly use it to strategise, and more importantly run ideas past other scum to allow us to work out the issues in advance. We usually had a Day by Day game plan of what people would do and in general it was good. It also allowed us to try and avoid overlapping on people and try and keep us as solo as possible. It certainly helped in getting NBC lynched at the right time. :)

What he said. We never would have lasted as long as we did in that game without being able to talk during the day, thanks to the mass role claim.

[ToeJam]

Discount me all you want. If I'm half price, does that mean I get to play two roles in the next game?

That could be arranged....
Roosh, I think some day I'm going to nonrandomly assign you and dot to mason roles, just to see if she trips your scumdar even then.

This has happened, see the Blade Runner game, in where I was scum and I KNEW Dotchan was scum, but she thought she was a townie. That was one of the MOST FRUSTRATING games for me, because she would come up with the most TERRIBLE reasoning for why I was scummy- and I could deflect them and turn them into reasons for why SHE could be scum for coming up with such terrible reasoning. But I couldn't be too hard on her, because I KNEW she'd eventually become scum and that we needed her around, but she'd just rally to try to kill us scum off with terrible logic :smack:

Eventually we had to settle on turning her just so that she would stop trying to get so many of us lynched- because it was just turning into daily Me vs. Dotchan fights over who was the scummy one back and forth, when I knew we were BOTH scum....
God... the one time I'd lynch Dotchan for info and I'd be right- I couldn't because I was scum too and I needed her to stick around! Though that helped out in teh endgame, because when you analyzed her moves at the end- she came out looking RIDICULOUSLY Towny for constantly going toe-to-toe vs. all the killed off scum, and she managed to win the final 3 in that game (and by a coinflip on her part).... But oh man, it was NERVE wracking up to that point.

[Hoopy Frood]

Discount me all you want. If I'm half price, does that mean I get to play two roles in the next game?

Yes. One town and one mafia at the same time.

What he said. We never would have lasted as long as we did in that game without being able to talk during the day, thanks to the mass role claim.

Kudos to you guys for that. As a spoiled observor it was fun to watch you guys strategize. You had probably the best coordinated scum team I've ever seen. Especially since the freak events of Night1 1 combined with the mass claim basically had the game all but winnable for you guys. (Interesting how had Night 1 not gone down that way, the game would have played very differently.)

[Blaster Master]

I mostly agree. But...

I don't think Masons communicating is an adequate counterbalance. Masons don't need to coordinate much of anything. Its a nice perk, but it isn't like Masons can set a trap for scum by being able to talk during the Day.

Scum however can evolve elaborate schemes. Furthermore, a more seasoned player can directly tell other scum what to do. Sure, they could do the same thing at night, but Daytalking enables real-time coordination to the situations. That is, scum #2 and #3 are voting for #1. The plan: 1 will claim and 2 and 3 will jump off the wagon. #2 will vote for X and #3 will vote for Y.
This type of coordination can't happen during the night for the next Day.

And Masons have no need for such coordination. They don't need to deceive anyone.

I agree that Masons being able to talk is not nearly the same advantage, but I think you're discounting some possibilities. You KNOW that everyone you're discussing with are pro-town, so you can share things like possible power role tells, and you can help eachother put together arguments. I really think being able to strategize with the knowledge that you don't have anti-town elements potentially poisoning your thought processes counts for something. But, again, to allow the scum to talk during the Day, it isn't enough, but it is something that can be taken into consideration.

As for looking for coordination, I suppose you are correct, but I'm not sure if one could really point to anything and be certain that there is coordination there. The point of coordination is that it appears seamless.

I agree, it is suppose to be seemless and, at least in this game, they did a pretty good job of it. One thing I learned from the SDMB game, and something that I suspected was going on in this game, is that scum can do pretty much anything they want as long as they make it look pro-town, because it's easy to keep people from looking at scum motivation when they're caught off-guard, confused, or otherwise affected in a way that impacts their rationality. I thought the scum were doing a pretty good job of laying low, but I also felt like my lynch is an excellent example of how this sort of coordination works.

That is, it appears pro-town to eliminate anti-town elements, but all the scum know is that I was not scum, and was either a powerful pro-town role, or third party, either of which was advantageous for them to remove. If they hadn't had the opportunity to talk, it probably would have been more obvious, but it was patently obvious to me who was scum and who was town because I knew my role. You had JSexton, who I felt pretty much screamed scum the whole time. But he couldn't do it alone, the town's people were legitimately confused and not sure how to handle it, but the ones that looked scummy to me, it very much looked like they were working together to paint me as a Serial Killer.

Of course, I'm spoiled now, so I can't comment on the veracity of my beliefs to JSexton and MHaye being scum, but the third person I was too lazy to go remember who it was also seemingly helped contribute to getting the town to believe I was anti-town, just in a much more subtle way. Again, it didn't matter if I was scum or PFK, as long as the town thought I was anti-town.

Really, it's unfortunate that the town decided my PMs were most-likely truthful, but completely ignored my arguments. Perhaps I had some advantage, knowing the truth of my role, but the town should have been doing parallel analysis, and realized that the scum had as much, if not more, reason to want me dead. Either way, the town should know that they have a higher level coordination, and they should be looking for it. Sure, it is harder to detect, but by not looking, they're just being lazy.

ETA: To take the idea further: I thought it would be fun to not allow scum to talk AT ALL. Therefore all coordination would have to be ad hoc. I think that would be more fun for all involved. Perhaps more frustrating for scum, but hopefully a fun challenge. Added benefit: don't have to set up communication boards!

This would be a very fun idea. It would, of course, be very moderator intensive, because the scum would have to vote on who to kill through PMs. If it were to be done, it would probably be best in a simple set-up with fewer players.

[sachertorte]

I get what you are saying. My only fear is that if the coordination is sufficiently seamless, the signal to noise ratio could be impossibly small. I don't know though. I don't recall playing any games where scum could communicate during the Day (at least none where I survived for long enough).

I've mainly been playing mafia as a patter recognition game. Most of my "catches" have been due to seeing someone's actions and behavior in the context of previous games. A whole lot of "well in Conspiracy 1, HazelNutCoffee said x and was scum and I let that slip, and now in Conspiracy 2, 'iforgetwho' did pretty much the same thing so I think he's scum." So, maybe if I played in a few games where I saw scum Daytime coordination behavior, I'd be better able to see it, but without previous experience, I don't think I'd be able to do it.

Funny side note: I had lunch with a friend and I commented on how our waiter is a bear. He (not gay) said he doesn't have gaydar. I brought up the pattern recognition thing there. Gaydar isn't some mystical force, it's just pattern recognition. If I see someone who reminds me of other people I know to be gay, then the chances of that person being gay too are much higher.

Same thing for finding scum and town.


This would be a very fun idea. It would, of course, be very moderator intensive, because the scum would have to vote on who to kill through PMs. If it were to be done, it would probably be best in a simple set-up with fewer players.
My thought was to have all scum vote once and take the plurality with a ranking of scum to break ties. So everyone votes once; not too terrible for the moderator.

[Blaster Master]

I get what you are saying. My only fear is that if the coordination is sufficiently seamless, the signal to noise ratio could be impossibly small. I don't know though. I don't recall playing any games where scum could communicate during the Day (at least none where I survived for long enough).

I've mainly been playing mafia as a patter recognition game. Most of my "catches" have been due to seeing someone's actions and behavior in the context of previous games. A whole lot of "well in Conspiracy 1, HazelNutCoffee said x and was scum and I let that slip, and now in Conspiracy 2, 'iforgetwho' did pretty much the same thing so I think he's scum." So, maybe if I played in a few games where I saw scum Daytime coordination behavior, I'd be better able to see it, but without previous experience, I don't think I'd be able to do it.

Funny side note: I had lunch with a friend and I commented on how our waiter is a bear. He (not gay) said he doesn't have gaydar. I brought up the pattern recognition thing there. Gaydar isn't some mystical force, it's just pattern recognition. If I see someone who reminds me of other people I know to be gay, then the chances of that person being gay too are much higher.

Same thing for finding scum and town.

As a computer scientist doing a PhD in pattern recognition, I can absolutely relate to this approach to the game. This is no small part in my style of changing styles as a way of thwarting this sort of approach. The thing is, determining data points on which to define patterns is difficult because there's a high level of dimensionality around circumstances, individual playstyle, etc.

The problem with a purely pattern recognition approach, is that it also comes with a handbook on how to defeat it. All the scum have to know is what patterns you're looking for, and they can avoid them. If you are looking for someone who bandwagon votes, or uses poor logic/strategy, or posts a bunch of fluff, or whatever, the scum can avoid those particular behaviors or particular patterns of behaviors. Sometimes situations will change in a way that's not so easy to determine.

As for this particular situation, I think that it ended up being easier for me to see because, as I said, I was the only one who knew my role, and also because I, as scum, had successfully done something very similar in my last game. JSexton stuck out like a sore thumb to me because I'd done virtually the exact same thing and used much of the exact same reasoning before. I think that is a valid use of pattern recognition. From there, assuming JSexton was scum, knowing their motivation, and looking for people that are working with him, I came up with a list of people that fit the number of scum that I thought was left. That's something that pattern recognition by itself won't detect. But, I was able to use it to find someone, then use that someone to determine the scum motivation, then use that scum motivation to see who else has behavior that fits that mold.

But take a look, you have JSexton attacking me aggressively, you then had MHaye come in and try to make a reasonable looking post. But you also had another person, who looked like scum, who was coming in and adding reassurance and agreement. This is the sort of coordinated attack I'd expect, because seeing people agree with you, and not just adding on the attack helps make your points look more legitimate than they are. There were also some people who were very clearly not working with him (Cookies is a good example).

Eh, I wish I could go into more detail about my reasoning, but because I'm spoiled and know whether I'm right or not, it wouldn't be a good idea.

My thought was to have all scum vote once and take the plurality with a ranking of scum to break ties. So everyone votes once; not too terrible for the moderator.

Yeah, it could work, but generally, even in in person games, scum can do some amount of communication, like seeing who voted for who and then possibly changing their vote in agreement. But, I suppose as long as it's worked out in advance, it would be workable.

[Pleonast]

I've mainly been playing mafia as a patter recognition game.(Underlining added.) This is a beautiful typo!My thought was to have all scum vote once and take the plurality with a ranking of scum to break ties. So everyone votes once; not too terrible for the moderator.Non-communicating scum is an instance for which a Borda count is perfect.

[Blaster Master]

Non-communicating scum is an instance for which a Borda count is perfect.

No! No more Borda count! ;)

[sachertorte]

As a computer scientist doing a PhD in pattern recognition, I can absolutely relate to this approach to the game. This is no small part in my style of changing styles as a way of thwarting this sort of approach. The thing is, determining data points on which to define patterns is difficult because there's a high level of dimensionality around circumstances, individual playstyle, etc.

The problem with a purely pattern recognition approach, is that it also comes with a handbook on how to defeat it. All the scum have to know is what patterns you're looking for, and they can avoid them. If you are looking for someone who bandwagon votes, or uses poor logic/strategy, or posts a bunch of fluff, or whatever, the scum can avoid those particular behaviors or particular patterns of behaviors. Sometimes situations will change in a way that's not so easy to determine.


Ah. A computer scientist! I'll be more precise in my explanation. I'm not talking about pattern recognition in the scientific sense of looking for particular behaviors or patterns. I'm referring to a more holistic approach, not something that could be programmed or quantified. It is more of a eureka moment of recognition rather than a search for particular patterns. In other words I'm not looking for anything, but I use pattern recognition to compare current observations to past experiences. Therefore, the idea that certain patterns are to be avoided isn't really valid.
For example, I identified NAF as scum in Terminator based on his being nice to me. I wasn't looking for someone "behaving nice to me." I compared his behavior to past games and concluded that people who were nice to me were more likely to be scum.
The patten was 'novel' for that game. So much so that people were suspicious of me for bringing it up as a reason to suspect NAF. And obviously NAF didn't know to avoid that pattern. Though now I guess he will have to be mean to me forever more :(

Borda Count:
Scum could borda count as well, it doesn't really matter. But a tie-breaker would be needed regardless of plurality count or borda count.
I was also thinking of publishing the vote to scum after the kill so they see what the vote is for the next night.

[NAF1138]

The patten was 'novel' for that game. So much so that people were suspicious of me for bringing it up as a reason to suspect NAF. And obviously NAF didn't know to avoid that pattern. Though now I guess he will have to be mean to me forever more :(



Well, that one ticked me off for two reasons:

1) I had,up until that game, been making a fairly genuine effort to be a bit more polite in these mafia games of ours.

2) I actually was being too nice to you because of Seekham and I was kicking myself for not jumping on you harder once you pointed it out.

[sachertorte]

If it makes you feel better, I liked that you were being nice to me; and I felt bad using that as a reason against you. And it wasn't just the niceness. It was also your compliance to my requests for information about the reset and the contrast in behavior between you and Rysto.
A frustrated NAF is a Townie NAF (at least for now).

[NAF1138]

Yeah, I think you are right, I get VERY frustrated as town. Heck, even as PFK in Marvel who just wanted town to stop flogging themselves I got frustrated.

[ShadowFacts]

Yeah, I think you are right, I get VERY frustrated as town. Heck, even as PFK in Marvel who just wanted town to stop flogging themselves I got frustrated.

Me too, particularly Vanilla town. That's why I had to take a break. Too many damn games where scum manipulated Town against me. Gah!! There's nothing worse than getting nabbed by a scum bear trap when you're not a real bear, but a friendly guy in a bear suit going to a kid's birthday party...

[Hal Briston]

Too many damn games where scum manipulated Town against me.Yeah, I hate when that happens...;)

[Blaster Master]

On reflection, I'm going to reveal who I protected on the first three Nights. I'd rather keep my Night 4 protection hidden for the moment.

Night 1 : No-one.
Night 2 : NAF1138
Night 3 : NAF1138

Am I the only one who finds this post hilarious?

[NAF1138]

No. I actually laughed out loud when I read it.

[Blaster Master]

Ah. A computer scientist! I'll be more precise in my explanation. I'm not talking about pattern recognition in the scientific sense of looking for particular behaviors or patterns. I'm referring to a more holistic approach, not something that could be programmed or quantified. It is more of a eureka moment of recognition rather than a search for particular patterns. In other words I'm not looking for anything, but I use pattern recognition to compare current observations to past experiences. Therefore, the idea that certain patterns are to be avoided isn't really valid.
For example, I identified NAF as scum in Terminator based on his being nice to me. I wasn't looking for someone "behaving nice to me." I compared his behavior to past games and concluded that people who were nice to me were more likely to be scum.
The patten was 'novel' for that game. So much so that people were suspicious of me for bringing it up as a reason to suspect NAF. And obviously NAF didn't know to avoid that pattern. Though now I guess he will have to be mean to me forever more :(

Okay, I see what you mean now. And, actually, I agree with your assessment of NAF in that game. The only real problem is, if it's a 'novel' reason, you're going to have a hard time convincing people of your reasoning, like you did in that game or, as in this game, why my argument against JSexton got zero traction.

At the same time though, it can be used against you. For instance, my crazy aggression in the Recruiting game was a result of me trying to get myself lynched. I followed that with some crazy aggression in the Simpletown game, hoping the detective would think it was a scum tell for me, to get myself investigated and confirmed as town. Of course, that's a pro-town example, but similar situations could be theorized where someone is pro-town in one game and try to use it as cover in the next.

[Blaster Master]

No. I actually laughed out loud when I read it.

I don't see how that post, all by itself isn't enough to get him lynched.

[storyteller0910]

I don't see how that post, all by itself isn't enough to get him lynched.

Wait, why? I have perfect information and I don't get it.

[ToeJam]

My gut has finally spoken to me this game... though it might just be the Soft Tacos I just ate....

But I'm calling it: Special Ed is scum.

[storyteller0910]

Very recent developments have me noting - no one has yet raised the specter of the Evil MasonTM. I wonder, would the revelation that a Mason has been repeatedly and dramatically lying change that?

[sachertorte]

Very recent developments have me noting - no one has yet raised the specter of the Evil MasonTM. I wonder, would the revelation that a Mason has been repeatedly and dramatically lying change that?

I'd be very surprised if you put in a scum mason. If you were in a game like that you would completely flip out! Oh wait, that's me.

[Blaster Master]

Wait, why? I have perfect information and I don't get it.

I think amrussel covered it pretty well, but he basically claimed he was a sort of doctor, and then said he protected NAF (a reasonable choice) for two Nights, and on the Night he was killed, decided it was a good idea to not reveal who he protected. I can't see any reasonable pro-town motivation at all and it just SCREAMS scum to me.

1. Maybe he saw someone else more worth protecting. That's possible but unlikely because NAF was definitely giving information and someone else would be based on a hunch. Beyond that, as amrussel said, and I'm glad someone else is using that reasoning, if he DID see something, then it's likely that the scum probably saw it too, and hiding it isn't helpful.

2. Maybe he decide it was time for NAF to die to confirm his readings. Fair enough, except he could have just said that. By not saying it, it looks bad.

3. He's just plain lying. He didn't want to say because he doesn't have a good explanation. He never never will, or needs time to talk it over with his scum buddies to come up with one.


But by doing that, he set himself up with having to explain why he didn't protect Pedescribe on Day One, which he doesn't have a good reason for. He also has to explain why he thought NAF was more useful than Diggit, which he doesn't have good reason for.

Oh, and the timing of it is priceless too.

Really, I'm surprised he even lived through that Day, but then again, he only needed to fool 1-2 people to avoid the lynch, and then he could take his time to work out the details.

The only part of the claim that's any bit convincing is the PM, but maybe he took a PM he had and made a few changes, or maybe you provided them with some (like we had in Batman), or maybe the scum had worked up some PMs in advance.

Anyway, I found that post funny because it just SCREAMED scum to me, there's just not an ounce of towniness in that post at all.

[storyteller0910]

I'd be very surprised if you put in a scum mason. If you were in a game like that you would completely flip out! Oh wait, that's me.

I make no comment regarding whether or not I did; I am simply wondering whether the idea will occur to the players, and if so, how they will handle it.

[ToeJam]

Very recent developments have me noting - no one has yet raised the specter of the Evil MasonTM. I wonder, would the revelation that a Mason has been repeatedly and dramatically lying change that?

Hey I bring it up all the time! Oh... but I'm not IN this game. That's amusing, because I know if I were in the game, i'd DEFINITELY be asking "Are the masons Dirty?"

And if you did that, Story, I'd be amused, because even I wouldn't expect that of you...

[NAF1138]

I have said it before and I will say it again, I don't think that EvilMasons are fair to the players of the game unless you warn the town in some way. I don't think that they are fair in the same way that I don't believe telling scum that there are no mason in a game is fair or that I don't believe that having a win stealing jester is fair. It completely destroys any semblence of balance in the game mechanic and is intentionally setting up the town to lose the game.

[storyteller0910]

I have said it before and I will say it again, I don't think that EvilMasons are fair to the players of the game unless you warn the town in some way. I don't think that they are fair in the same way that I don't believe telling scum that there are no mason in a game is fair or that I don't believe that having a win stealing jester is fair. It completely destroys any semblence of balance in the game mechanic and is intentionally setting up the town to lose the game.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, and I'm not saying I agree with you. But in a hypothetical game where you discovered that the Masons had lied a number of times, sometimes in ways that do not necessarily correspond with obviously pro-Town motives, would you be inclined to make sure that the Masons didn't survive until endgame, just in case? Especially as a former EvilMasonTM yourself?

[NAF1138]

Yes, yes I would make sure that they didn't survive if it was within my power. They wouldn't be at the top of my list, but I would be trying my best to make sure they were killed.

[NAF1138]

Also, to be fair, I wasn't exactly an EvilMason. I wasn't a mason at all, the masons were just lead to believe that I was one of them. Then I lead them to believe that they could share my win, but I didn't investigate as mason and I didn't really share proper color with the masons. It is a slight difference, but a real one.

[storyteller0910]

Also, to be fair, I wasn't exactly an EvilMason. I wasn't a mason at all, the masons were just lead to believe that I was one of them. Then I lead them to believe that they could share my win, but I didn't investigate as mason and I didn't really share proper color with the masons. It is a slight difference, but a real one.

This might be off topic, but I'd argue that the above is a distinction without a difference. If the other Masons are told that you're a Mason, then you're a Mason, in terms of how that affects the balance of the game. If you're not really a Mason, but the Masons are told that you are, and then you're able to pursue a solitary win condition at the expense of the Town... well, in just about every way I can think of, you're the same as an Evil Mason.