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Vox Imperatoris
01-12-2009, 10:07 PM
The IMHO thread on anti-crazy-gunman-assault plans got me wondering: if you were equipped with only a small Swiss Army-type knife, what would be the most effective place to stab such a short blade to achieve maximum disabling effect? (Discounting of course that doing do would be extremely unwise, the possibility of unarmed attacks, running away, etc.) My first thought would be the neck, since other vital targets seem too naturally armored by the body to guarantee success. But would that actually disable someone effectively, or would it just make them mad at you (at least long enough to kill you)? Apologies for the somewhat morbid question.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

drachillix
01-12-2009, 10:10 PM
you pretty much nailed it in one. You might be able to pierce a pleural space around a lung with that but I would hate to depend on it. Only other suggestion I would have is just poke a hole in his leg hoping to slow your assailant enough from the pain that you might escape.

Joey P
01-12-2009, 10:22 PM
The neck is a nice big unguarded target I would think, but if you had a good chance to 'aim' so to speak, what about the eye. ISTM that being stabbed in the eyeball should slow them down a bit.

Interconnected Series of Tubes
01-12-2009, 10:23 PM
My morbid, armchair WAG would be the eyes, if you're looking for an immediate incapacitation. Assuming you're quick enough to get over the protective reflex (and for this reason aiming for the throat may in the end be a more feasible solution,) popping an eyeball would seem about the most vulnerable superficial target.

Anybody who's watched enough MMA can testify that an accidental finger in the eye can quickly stop, or at least severely disable, even the fittest of motivated professional badasses.

WhyNot
01-12-2009, 10:42 PM
Is he nekkid? If so, I'm aiming for the dangly bits with lots of bloodflow. Slice, not stab.

Otherwise, eyes or throat.

Vox Imperatoris
01-12-2009, 10:51 PM
Is he nekkid? If so, I'm aiming for the dangly bits with lots of bloodflow. Slice, not stab.

Otherwise, eyes or throat.

I doubt a Swiss Army knife would be able to, uh, make the cut in any case. You would probably just nick it. And you'd have to be holding it down, anyway, so I don't think that would be possible even with a naked maniac. The eyes are a good suggestion, though, but easier to guard than the neck.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

Magiver
01-12-2009, 10:52 PM
throat under the Adam's apple. Then eye. Always jab.

DanBlather
01-12-2009, 11:07 PM
The thread title needs to be preceded by "Hurry: ".

WhyNot
01-12-2009, 11:09 PM
I doubt a Swiss Army knife would be able to, uh, make the cut in any case. You would probably just nick it. And you'd have to be holding it down, anyway, so I don't think that would be possible even with a naked maniac. The eyes are a good suggestion, though, but easier to guard than the neck.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

I was thinking yank taut with the left, slice with the right. Can't be much more firmly attached than a chicken breast, and I cut those apart with a paring knife.

Vox Imperatoris
01-12-2009, 11:24 PM
I was thinking yank taut with the left, slice with the right. Can't be much more firmly attached than a chicken breast, and I cut those apart with a paring knife.

I'm talking about one of these (http://www.swissarmy.com/MultiTools/Pages/Product.aspx?category=originalswissarmyknives&product=53181&) (that's a cool website, by the way. Did you realize they make regular-sized knives that include a emergency mini-pen and a 16 GB flash drive?). They're likely not nearly that sharp, and the blade might not even be as long as a penis is wide. I would also think a penis has a lot more "give" than chicken muscle; it would be like slicing a sponge.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

UncleBill
01-12-2009, 11:34 PM
In a hurry? A sneak attack from the rear, knife blade shoved upwards at a 45 degree angle just below the base of the skull. I'll wait now for you to find that "soft spot". About even with the bottoms of my earlobes. All kinds of good brain stem stuff there, plus the top of the spinal column. Drops'em like a sack o' potatoes. The eye, leg, neck, dangly bits, throat, can all leave the Bad Guy able to get either a few or many many more rounds off.

Not that I know this personally.

Vox Imperatoris
01-12-2009, 11:41 PM
In a hurry? A sneak attack from the rear, knife blade shoved upwards at a 45 degree angle just below the base of the skull. I'll wait now for you to find that "soft spot". About even with the bottoms of my earlobes. All kinds of good brain stem stuff there, plus the top of the spinal column. Drops'em like a sack o' potatoes. The eye, leg, neck, dangly bits, throat, can all leave the Bad Guy able to get either a few or many many more rounds off.

Not that I know this personally.

Is an itty-bitty Swiss Army knife long enough for that, though?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

GuanoLad
01-12-2009, 11:43 PM
What would be the most effective place to stab an assailant with a 1.5 inch knife?

In the bathroom. Then it'd be easier to clean up.

UncleBill
01-12-2009, 11:52 PM
An inch and a half should do it, especially if you push it all the way in and jiggle it around a bit.

In my opinion.

Sailboat
01-12-2009, 11:53 PM
I've never been in a knife fight, but in my limited experience the key to winning a fight is, when you have affected your opponent (hit him, stunned him, knocked him off balance, hurt him, etc.) press your advantage. Even if it's as simple as unimaginatively repeating the same action which just succeeded, hit him again. Many times. Rapidly. Fancy combinations that involve repositioning your body, doing a variety of interesting things, and worst of all, spinning, are movie stuff. You don't need a whole choreographed fight culminating in a finishing move if sixteen hard left jabs in a row will do the trick.

So I'd say stabbing/cutting in the eye, neck, or groin would best be carried out multiple times, rather than winging him and allowing him to recover and express his feelings on the issue.

Satellite^Guy
01-13-2009, 01:01 AM
Would the temple be a feasible target?

S^G

bobot
01-13-2009, 01:49 AM
The throat is hard to argue with. Even it it wasn't a final blow, could you imagine the panic that a blood spraying throat wound would induce? And 1.5 inches is pleny long to damage lot's of other stuff. If the throat is unavailable, I say a good old fashioned solar plexus stab should put 'em right where you want 'em!
Peace

Surok
01-13-2009, 02:07 AM
They're likely not nearly that sharp...

<hijack>

They're sharp. Sharper than a lot of paring knives. The large scar on my index finger proves it.

</hijack>

ChrisBooth12
01-13-2009, 02:09 AM
Hmm what about that soft spot on the jawline right below the ear? Putting pressure there with my finger is uncomfortable. A knife jab would probably do something

ivan astikov
01-13-2009, 04:47 AM
If you are doing it against a moving target that will definitely beat you without it, you'd have to be very lucky to cause any real damage before they took it off you and got medieval on yo ass. Best bet is throw it and run.*

If it is a sneak attack you are planning, any of the suggestions above will cause serious annoyance, if not death.




* You might have a slighter chance if your opponent doesn't know you have it, but... still.

Half Man Half Wit
01-13-2009, 05:18 AM
The neck and eyes would be the obvious places to aim for, I'd think, but if those are unreachable, maybe you'd have a stab (heh) at getting the femoral artery on the inside of the upper thigh? That slows him down, and the blood loss should drop him quickly, however, probably not quickly enough for him not to fire a couple more bullets in your general direction.

Joey P
01-13-2009, 07:04 AM
The neck and eyes would be the obvious places to aim for, I'd think, but if those are unreachable, maybe you'd have a stab (heh) at getting the femoral artery on the inside of the upper thigh? That slows him down, and the blood loss should drop him quickly, however, probably not quickly enough for him not to fire a couple more bullets in your general direction.

Yeah, but the trench coat would get in the way of that.

Max Torque
01-13-2009, 09:09 AM
As the venerable tome Black Medicine: The Dark Art of Death said, there are basically three things you can do to end a fight:

1. Distract your opponent. If he stops thinking about hitting you, he'll stop hitting you.
2. Interfere with his control over his body. If he can't make a fist, he'll stop hitting you.
3. Destroy the integrity of his body. If his arm's broken, he'll stop hitting you whether he can make a fist or not.

The neck is a great and vulnerable target, but if you can't make much of a slash or your aim is sub-par, he'll still have plenty of time to beat the snot out of you before he even notices he's hurt. Eyes are best, I'd think; they go with #1 and #3 on the above list (while he freaks out about the eye, you can run like hell), and even if he does somehow recover and come after you, the loss of an eye is pretty staggering; he'll lose depth perception, for one, and using ranged weapons will be pretty damn difficult.

In a fight for your life, anything goes. You won't believe how fast someone will let go of you when you jam your fingers all the way up his nose.

Cluricaun
01-13-2009, 09:16 AM
Maybe you want to start carrying a bigger knife. 4 or 5 inch blade stabbed repeatedly in the soft spot in the chest under the armpit or just right into the kidneys will incapacitate, if not kill, many people outright.

And I would not want to show up to a knife fight with a folding knife that doesn't lock. It would suck to spring your attack only to find that your knife has closed across your fingers.

puppygod
01-13-2009, 09:45 AM
I'd say go for the eyes. 1.5 inch blade is too short to have reasonable chance of damaging his spine or reaching major artery.

Scumpup
01-13-2009, 09:45 AM
The typical office has bunches of stuff around that can be used more effectively as an expedient weapon than one of the smaller, non-locking SAK's. Still, sometimes you got to run what you brung.
1. Remember that the SAK isn't your only weapon. You still have feet, knees, elbows, fists, etc. Use them.
2. Such short blades can only be realistically deployed in slashing attacks; don't expect any individual slash to be a fight ending blow.
3. Keep fighting no matter what; even if you get shot. Most people who are shot with handguns survive, you can too.

That said, I'd prefer a mop or broom to a little SAK if I had to use it as a weapon...or a chair or a fire extinguisher or a good many other things I see right here around me.

Cluricaun
01-13-2009, 10:02 AM
There is a video (http://glockstore.com/pgroup_descrip/6623_Little+Knives...Big+Trouble/?return=%3ftpl%3Dsearch%26search_val%3DKNIFE)out there that describes specific techniques for fighting with small 2"-3" knives. Maybe there's something beneficial to the OP in there.

Chimpy
01-13-2009, 12:33 PM
In terms of eye shots, it's worth bearing in mind that, as anyone who's dissected an eye will know, the sclera is pretty thick; I susect your chances are higher of skimming the eye and piercing the socket, above or below it than hitting the sweet spot in the middle to pierce it. It's still going to be a pretty unpleasant blow no matter what.

Cervaise
01-13-2009, 01:00 PM
Stabbing the assailant in the aorta would be extremely effective. Unfortunately you have to chainsaw open his rib cage first.

JKilez
01-13-2009, 01:30 PM
Maybe you want to start carrying a bigger knife. 4 or 5 inch blade stabbed repeatedly in the soft spot in the chest under the armpit or just right into the kidneys will incapacitate, if not kill, many people outright.
I would think that kidneys would be an apt target as well (assuming you were behind you target). It is a relatively big and soft target and you probably could get full blade penetration.

KneadToKnow
01-13-2009, 01:39 PM
I've always thought the most effective tool on the Swiss Army knife for a fight would be the corkscrew, anyway. Open it, put the body of the knife inside my closed fist, and garner an instant increase of about 3000% in damage caused by punches.

crazyjoe
01-13-2009, 02:03 PM
I would think that kidneys would be an apt target as well (assuming you were behind you target). It is a relatively big and soft target and you probably could get full blade penetration.

I was going to suggest kidneys. From what I have experienced just being punched in the kidney, it hurts a whole hell of a lot. A stab to the kidneys might render someone pretty much useless.

WhyNot
01-13-2009, 02:05 PM
I was going to suggest kidneys. From what I have experienced just being punched in the kidney, it hurts a whole hell of a lot. A stab to the kidneys might render someone pretty much useless.

I think crazyjoe should win, just based on his username and the thread topic. :D

(How come I'm always the only chick in these threads?)

CookingWithGas
01-13-2009, 02:26 PM
I would also think a penis has a lot more "give" than chicken muscle; it would be like slicing a sponge.Lorena Bobbitt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_and_Lorena_Bobbitt#Incident)didn't seem to have much trouble but she used a longer knife.

Cluricaun
01-13-2009, 02:28 PM
I would think that kidneys would be an apt target as well

I was going to suggest kidneys.

Good thing I mentioned the kidneys in my post. ;)

pulykamell
01-13-2009, 03:21 PM
My guess would be the neck area, specifically the cartoid artery, but anywhere in the neck/throat should be good. I would attempt a jabbing and then twisting motion, once the knife is lodged in the neck/thoat, to scramble as much as possible.

Chimera
01-13-2009, 03:48 PM
In a hurry? A sneak attack from the rear, knife blade shoved upwards at a 45 degree angle just below the base of the skull.

A pithy statement if I've ever seen one.

Scumpup
01-13-2009, 03:51 PM
Thrusts to the eyes, throat, kidneys, brain, etc. are difficult as hell to pull off without the element of surprise and with a tiny knife one can't even grip securely and that may well fold shut during a thrust.
I repeat: if you are attacked by an armed person (and there is no option to flee) and your only weapon is a SAK, your best bet is to be a slashing, kicking, punching, kneeing, elbowing, biting, spitting, grappling, screaming, hitting with furniture, whirlwind. You need to overwhelm your opponent as quickly as possible before he can pump you full of lead. Screwing around trying ninja instant-death maneuvers with a pen knife is going to get you killed for sure.

Chronos
01-13-2009, 03:52 PM
Is he nekkid? If so, I'm aiming for the dangly bits with lots of bloodflow. Slice, not stab.

Otherwise, eyes or throat.Yes and no... Guys have a very strong protective reflex for anything in the general area of the crotch, so it's hard to actually land a blow there. On the other hand, that same protective reflex can make a groin attack a very good feint for some other more effective attack elsewhere: In this case, that might, for instance, be a knee to the groin followed a split second later by a stab to the eyes (or rather, a stab to where the eyes will be), since many groin-protection maneuvers will result in the face being more exposed than usual.

Stranger On A Train
01-13-2009, 04:15 PM
Maybe you want to start carrying a bigger knife. 4 or 5 inch blade stabbed repeatedly in the soft spot in the chest under the armpit or just right into the kidneys will incapacitate, if not kill, many people outright.

And I would not want to show up to a knife fight with a folding knife that doesn't lock. It would suck to spring your attack only to find that your knife has closed across your fingers.This is the most perceptive response in this thread so far, and tends to highlight why a short-bladed knife is a very poor weapon for defense.

The problem with most of the recommendations in this thraed is they ignore the fact that a 1.5" blade will barely penetrate sufficiently to reliably hit any major artery or significant ligament or tendon. Even the common caritod arteries--so visible on the neck--are largely protected from a slash or side thrust by the thrust of the jaw and the sternocleidomastoid muscles of the neck; in order to hit these arteries you must come straight from the front or underneath, right through the inner swing of the arms and to an effective target about the size of a euro coin. Ditto with effective attacks to the face or head, and even the anterior of the skull and spinal cord are better protected than most people think. This is decidedly not easy against a resisting, flailing, dodging target, hence why most defenders from knife attacks have multiple cuts on their hands and lower arms. As far as any attacks to the kidneys, aorta, temple, et cetera, forget it; there simply isn't enough length to penetrate and reliably do any kind of damage that would incapacitate someone. 4" is really considered the bare minimum for effectiveness in penetrating attacks; 6" or better is really necessary to guarantee an effective wound even with good placement.

You also have to contend with the fact that unlike blunt contusion attacks, cuts and stabs cause relatively little immediate pain in the subject. It is entirely possible to be stabbed and not even notice until you feel the blood flowing from the wound. For a knife attack to be effective in immediately stopping an attack it has to result in either major blood loss or disabling injury to a joint or ligament. Probably the single most effective place to disable (not incapacitate, but make the perpetrator incapable of attack or defense) is to stab at the shoulder from above or under the clavicle. This is the densest collection of muscle, tendons, and ligaments in the human body, and it is virtually impossible to make an intrusive attack here without hitting something significant. The tendons at the elbow joints and wrists are also possible, too, but just as hard to hit as the arteries.

Scumpup has it right; rather than trying to make a blade that is scarcely more dangerous than a toothpick into your single defense weapon, you should apply hands, feet, elbows, knees, and any heavy or freely throwable objects to play, raining down blows until the attacker is incapacitated, runs away, or offers you an opening for escape. If you want to see what a real knife fight between 'professionals' looks like, go to the bathhouse scene in Eastern Promises; an absolute bloody mess where nobody gets out unscathed.

Stranger

teela brown
01-13-2009, 04:22 PM
This was something I've always wondered, ever since I saw The Man Who Wasn't There. Billy Bob Thorton

stabbed a guy in the jugular with a small letter-opener kind of knife, and the guy quickly bled to death/choked on his own blood.

I was a bit skeptical, but hey, the jugular is right there under the skin. I suppose you could do it.

Cervaise
01-13-2009, 05:01 PM
and that may well fold shut during a thrustThis was my first thought, actually. I've had too many of these flimsy little things close up, gashing my thumb, during routine, everyday use, so there's no way I'd even consider trying to use one for self-defense. Try to stick it into somebody's skull, the only thing you're going to accomplish is cutting a chunk out of one of your own fingers.

BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed
01-13-2009, 08:18 PM
I'd say go for the eyes. 1.5 inch blade is too short to have reasonable chance of damaging his spine or reaching major artery.

Can I just say how wonderful it is to have the god of puppies commenting on the best way to kill someone? Must be the old testament puppy god...

Sleel
01-13-2009, 08:38 PM
A non-locking knife is useless for stabbing. You're limited to slashes or cuts. The small blade you're talking about is almost useless for that kind of cutting. You'd be better off with almost any other improvised weapon. Even a flimsy Bic pen is probably better for stabs.

About the only place I'd even try to cut with a blade that short would be across the forehead to blind him with blood. Not really useful unless that's just an element in your overall attack. If you're a very good fighter, you could use the knife as an adjunct to grappling, as a distraction or to do extra damage while you're doing a technique. But if you were a good fighter you wouldn't be asking this question.

Realistically, you don't have much chance at much without a longer blade. As Stranger pointed out, the cuts aren't going to hurt him much. You're looking to destroy his mobility or incapacitate him due to shock and blood loss.

If you try cutting the throat, you need to cut deeply. The common carotid (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/presentations/100124_1.htm), which is probably the most vulnerable spot readily available, is buried an inch or two under muscle. If you actually get it, he's going to be unconscious in about 15 to 30 seconds. I wouldn't place any bets on that outcome though. You'd have to be pretty good at fighting to get him in a vulnerable position with his head back, by his hair, or partially restrained in a choke so that you can get to those spots. If you can do that, you can probably get the damn gun away from him.

In general, places to cut in knife attacks are at joints. There are vulnerable arteries and nerves there. In particular, at the inside bend of the elbow you've got the brachial artery (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24440/24440-h/images/038P15_25.jpg) (large red vessel labeled C) pretty close to the surface. It's buried under the biceps higher up. At the front crease of the hip, toward the inside of the thigh, the femoral artery (http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ga/l/550.gif) is relatively accessible, but clothing will probably prevent you from reaching it with what you've got.

An inch and a half is completely inadequate for any torso attack, including a kidney shot. Those are partially protected by the lower ribs, and you have thick muscle to get through before you can do any real damage. You'd probably do more with punches considering that you can't stab without the blade closing on your fingers.

My advice: look for a better weapon, or completely ignore the knife. Concentrating on your weapon is a bad idea in any circumstances, but in this case it would be a serious liability.

Cluricaun
01-13-2009, 09:57 PM
My advice: look for a better weapon, or completely ignore the knife. Concentrating on your weapon is a bad idea in any circumstances, but in this case it would be a serious liability.

A great point. In self defense the goal is always to stop the threat, not to kill, not to wound. Stopping someone with a knife is going to be very difficult for anyone who's not been trained in advanced knife fighting techniques because you would, in most imaginable self defense situations, have to stab the everloving shit out of somone in order to arrive at a safe stoppage. Not to mention the need to engage the threat at arms length or less which is really less than optimal if it can be avoided. There will exist at that point a very real chance that your weapon would be turned against you if you don't know what you're doing.

Best to just run away if at all possible.

ETA: Why not check into seeing if your jurisdiction allows the carry of a stun gun or pepper spray, both of which are far more effective in the hands of a layperson.

Vox Imperatoris
01-13-2009, 10:17 PM
Just to be clear, I acknowledged in the OP that this would be a very stupid course of action in the first place, and I have no intention of playing a Swiss Ninja in the unlikely event that such a situation should arise. I was just wondering what such a multi-tool master's best bet would be to take an armed target down in one hit. :)

Anyway, the consensus seems to be the throat, eyes, or shoulder area, but even moreso that you'd be better off (even if you couldn't run) dropping the knife and going hand-to-hand or picking up practically anything else.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

groman
01-14-2009, 01:58 AM
An inch and a half should do it, especially if you push it all the way in and jiggle it around a bit.

That's what she said. ;)

Bryan Ekers
01-14-2009, 02:36 AM
I've never been in a knife fight

Wanna know the winning strategy?
Bring a gun