Alex Rodriguez tested positive for steroids in 2003

[DudleyGarrett]

My reaction: :eek:

I did NOT see this coming.

Story here. (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/02/07/alex-rodriguez-steroids/index.html)

[drm]

It doesn't surprise me at all. He started baseball at the perfect time to be on Steroids his entire career so one doesn't see a giant boost in numbers (aside from his third to fourth year). Nobody is out of bounds ,as far as I'm concerned.

Also, I googled the MLB Drug Policy and I can't find out how offseason testing works. Does anybody know?

[What Exit?]

Well this sucks, I've never been a big fan but I also have never hated him at all and I thought he was honest at least.

So now the Yanks get to have two crazy side stories to spring training this year. A-Fraud and Joe "Loose-Lips' Torre. ;)

[appleciders]

Why are we finding this out now?

[drm]

My GUESS is the Bonds trial.

[Marley23]

Disappointing but I wouldn't be shocked at a positive test from anyone at this point. So much for the idea of A-Rod as a positive alternative to Bonds - remember a few years ago when people said there was no WAY he ever used?

[Cluricaun]

I'm really over the whole steroids in baseball thing. The idea that we have to somehow try to preserve the purity of the game sounds like another idea from the kind of people who think that there's some such thing as a fair fight. Let them shoot as much shit into themselves as they want. I don't care at all anymore. Let them die in their sleep in their 40's from blown apart hearts or from frightening cancers if that's what they want so badly.

[What Exit?]

Disappointing but I wouldn't be shocked at a positive test from anyone at this point. So much for the idea of A-Rod as a positive alternative to Bonds - remember a few years ago when people said there was no WAY he ever used?

I may have been one of those people. I am not sure. I know I said it about Jeter.

[Windwalker]

I'm pretty sure that Ken Griffey, Jr. never doped up. He's the one superstar that I've always had faith in with regards to this, just judging from the way he acts on the field, during interviews, and what little I know of his private life. I would actually put money on this. Anyone else, though, I wouldn't be shocked.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

I'm pretty sure that Ken Griffey, Jr. never doped up. He's the one superstar that I've always had faith in with regards to this, just judging from the way he acts on the field, during interviews, and what little I know of his private life. I would actually put money on this. Anyone else, though, I wouldn't be shocked.

I hope that's correct. I wouldn't put cash on it, though.

In those circumstances, I can't guarantee that I wouldn't take steroids or something

[DudleyGarrett]

So who's next... Manny?

[drm]

So who's next... Manny?

Lets be honest here, do you honestly think Manny could remember to take Steroids?

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Lets be honest here, do you honestly think Manny could remember to take Steroids?

Nope. If he's with Boras because he wants that much paper, you better believe Manny would hypothetically remember to do that. Hell, even if it were a problem, he'd have a trainer.

[drm]

No, I know, I was only joking.

Funny story though, Kirk Radomski was on prime time sports (Canadian sports radio show) this week and he was mentioning that this very thing was a problem for Mo Vaughn....

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

Damn. Jose Canseco was right AGAIN.

I really thought A-Rod would be too concerned about what other people thought about him to get busted with steroids.

If we're starting a not-on-steroids pool, I'm picking Eckstein, but even now, who knows?

[dgrdfd]

Hahaha, I love it. Now if it could be shown Jeter did steroids. Oh, and Favre.

[RickJay]

Lets be honest here, do you honestly think Manny could remember to take Steroids?
For all the shit people talk about Ramirez, he is, by all accounts, one of the hardest working hitters in baseball. He's a perfectionist and a workaholic when it comes to his batting. Frankly, he's precisely the kind of guy I'd expect might take them, just because it's one more thing he could do to hit better.

As for A-Rod, is this really surprising? He's a gigantic asshole, why not cheat? It's disappointing, but surely nobody who's followed the guy's career can be shocked by this.

[Cubsfan]

Hahaha, I love it. Now if it could be shown Jeter did steroids. Oh, and Favre.

And Michael Jordan, Walter Payton, Dr. J and Honus Wagner

[dgrdfd]

And Michael Jordan, Walter Payton, Dr. J and Honus Wagner

Woah, now. I like MJ. Lets leave him out of this. :D

[davidw]

http://www.groundruletrouble.com/2009/02/pop-goes-world.html

Probably the saddest aspect of all this is that a bigger scandal will go largely unremarked upon: The player's union only agreed to the 2003 tests--the source of Rodriguez’s sample--in the first place on the condition that the results remain strictly anonymous. If the players and their union ever needed another reason to never, ever trust anything management ever promises--well, here it is in bold relief. Also, the fact those very results were seized and are now being made public is a scandalous abuse of government power (if you don’t think this effects you--guess again; ever give a urine or blood sample for insurance purposes or as part of your job? Well, if you thought the results would be kept private you could be in for a nasty lesson) and this is far more worrisome than some ballplayer trying to get an edge in his profession.

[gonzomax]

http://www.groundruletrouble.com/2009/02/pop-goes-world.html

Yah, but I gots to know.

[VarlosZ]

I must admit that I feel similar to Cluricaun. Intellectually, I understand that it's wrong for player's to cheat by taking banned performance enhancers, and I think there's value to banning and testing for the most effective PEDs so as to keep players from getting too much of an edge . . . but I no longer feel any kind of negative visceral reaction to these stories.

Look, it ain't golf. Professional athletes are expected to cheat to help their teams win. If you trap a baseball or football against the ground, you're expected to get up screaming at the ref/ump that you caught it. If you foul the hell out of a Power Forward who's going for a lay-up but the refs deem it a clean block, you're expected to keep your mouth shut. If the norms for these sports were different, I imagine I would care a lot more, but in fact the prevailing ethos -- from stealing signs to spitters to greenies -- is that if you can get away with it, it isn't really cheating (or, rather, it is cheating, but we only care a tiny bit). Why, then, are steroids a hanging offense?

So ban the chems, and test for them, and if a player gets caught, punish him. But this business about tainted legacies and fraudulent numbers seems hypocritical to me (especially in light of the fact that no one seems to care at all about the widespread use of amphetamines prior to the "steroid era"). When Gaylord Perry is expelled from the Hall of Fame for throwing spitballs, or when outfielders start to trap fly balls then pop up, point to the ground, and shake their heads, I'll feel differently.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

The difference--and it's a huge one--between the kind of cheating you're talking about and the kind I'm talking about is that we all know, including the umpires, to discount ballplayers' claim to have caught the ball on the fly, to have thrown spit-free pitches, to have blocked the basketball without touching the driving player etc. as self-serving bullshit. If a fielder makes the claim he caught a fly ball clean, and the umpires all agree that they saw it bounce, then it's going down as a hit, even if the fielder screams so loud and long his guts fly out his mouth.

The equivalent, which I'm advocating, is that if you think that steroids have been used (not if you KNOW beyond all reasonable doubt, but simply if you think) then you need to disqualify that player from the HoF, regardless of his self-serving claims. Bonds and Clemens can protest how pure and innocent they are until doomsday: I've made up my mind on the basis of ALL the evidence, of which their self-serving testimony plays only a tiny part.

If I've learned anything from this, it's to treat all violations seriously at the time they occur. "What's the harm in admitting Perry to the HoF? So he threw a few wet ones--what's the BFD?" The BFD, as it turns out, is that more serious violations get ruled on with that small violation as a precedent. We can't throw Perry out of the HoF (I don't think) but we can act on the candidates before us now. I choose to act.

[Fish]

A-roid.

[Capa]

I heard on ESPN radio that the player's union rep had also warned Arod before the test even happened...to me THAT's the part of the story getting swept under the rug...if all the players tested had advance notice, and they still had too many positives, then how many positives would there have been without the warnings?


I honestly don't care if they juice, or don't, or even how much they do. Most people would take the health risks that these guys were taking if it meant a 15% increase in work performance and led to a 75% higher income. Very few of the baseball players were using them like pro wrestlers or the pro football players did in the past who have had such serious health issues

[Yookeroo]

"What's the harm in admitting Perry to the HoF? So he threw a few wet ones--what's the BFD?" The BFD, as it turns out, is that more serious violations get ruled on with that small violation as a precedent. We can't throw Perry out of the HoF (I don't think) but we can act on the candidates before us now. I choose to act.

Why is Gaylord Perry's cheating a "small" violation?

[mshar253]

So now the Yanks get to have two crazy side stories to spring training this year. A-Fraud and Joe "Loose-Lips' Torre. ;)

With his involvement with Madonna, and then the "AFraud" story, Alex has been involved in a couple stories over the last few months that have paired him with someone with loose lips. :)

[What Exit?]

Why is Gaylord Perry's cheating a "small" violation?

This will vary by person but for some of us the mastering of the use of a scuffed/doctored ball is a skill and part of the game. Stealing signs is a skill and part of the game. Even corking/super-balling a bat* is just messing with equipment. Taking performance enhancers crosses the line in dangerous and unacceptable cheating. Anyone can try to learn to throw the spitball but few can master it and the techniques to get away with it. Using steroids and HGH is not time honored and is general not found acceptable.

Additionally the use of steroids and HGH has helped shattered many long standing and nearly holy Home Run records. Perry's cheating was a form of cheating that was continuous since it was first made against the rules around 1920. To complicate things, some pitchers were grandfathered and allowed to keep using the 'spitball' legally until they retired. The last legal spitball was thrown by Burleigh Grimes in 1934. Perry followed a long tradition of pitchers that learned and threw the 'spitball'.

Then we come to the use of Bennies or Greens since at least the 50s. This step up from caffeine to amphetamines is so old that everyone just seems to give it a pass. As this did not lead to the shattering of the homerun records, I think is why it has got a pass and further shows where a large part of the outrage over steroids and HGH comes from.

[Marley23]

I wasn't criticizing any Dopers in particular with what I said earlier, What Exit? - I'm thinking more of sports writers who glommed onto the idea that baseball Mr. Clean Rodriguez was going to break the record in a few years anyway, and rescue baseball from having to stare down the specter of steroids in the home run record.

Rodriguez hasn't been caught sice 2003, but the problem is there's now no way to prove, and little reason to believe, he didn't just switch to another regimen. I'm pushed more and more toward VarlosZ's opinion as the steroid investigations have gone on. I don't like the idea of letting cheaters win, but it's become more clear to me that this has always been part of the game, and always will be, and there's little chance anything can be done about it.

Separate issue: I'm not sure why baseball turned a blind eye to Gaylord Perry since he always cheated openly. That was stupid.

[Hawkeyeop]

I'm really over the whole steroids in baseball thing. The idea that we have to somehow try to preserve the purity of the game sounds like another idea from the kind of people who think that there's some such thing as a fair fight. Let them shoot as much shit into themselves as they want. I don't care at all anymore. Let them die in their sleep in their 40's from blown apart hearts or from frightening cancers if that's what they want so badly.

See, I don't want people to kill themselves for my entertainment. This saddens me. A player dieing at the age of 40 bothers me a lot more than the sanctity of home-run records. I'm not outraged by the use of steriods. I don't expect baseball players to be moral leaders, and the choice to take steriods is an understandable one. I'd say a mistaken one as well, but not everyone shares my priorities.

I like what Buck O'Neil said about steriods. That he wished we wouldn't call them performance enhancing drugs, but rather just drugs. Steriods aren't disallowed because they enhance performance. If they had no negative side effects they would be legal and encouraged. Rather they are not allowed because we don't want individuals to have to choose between taking steriods or being beaten by those who do.

This has to be the goal. It shouldn't be about punishment, but rather protection. These hunts just aren't worth he effort. No 16 year old is going to not do steriods, because he is worried about his hall of fame chances. He is going to do it, because he wants to make varsity, or get a scholarship, or get drafted. Do we seriously believe Arod being outed will act as a deterrant? For any high-schooler becoming Arod is an amazing outcome.

We have a wealth of people who can talk about the dangers of steriods to youth, and we are wasting it. I'd much rather Arod talk about his experiences with juicing open and honestly, rather then attempting to hide behind the union. I understand his actions though. If we continue to treat steroid users as the scum of the earth, players will deny it until their death beds.

That saddens me too. McGwire from all accounts is a good person. He has done a lot of work for children's charities. I just wish we would treat him a bit better. I'd much rather follow a sport where players sometimes pass blurry lines to achieve peak performance, than one in which players feel the need to bring guns into a nightclub

[WordMan]

A-roid.

Yep - that's the important question: which corruption of "A-Rod" will become the enduring one?

- A-Roid?
- A-Fraud?
- Stray-Rod?

So many to choose from.

As for the issue - the tone of the NY papers seems to capture it all: they are portraying A-Rod as a bringer-of-scandals who isn't really worth the attention. Kinda like what the Cowboys went through at the end of the season, when, once again, they caused a sound and fury, but signified nothing. You can only hold up MVP's and other individual-performance awards for so long in NY, while stirring the pot as much as A-Rod has, and not get a lot of heat. This season is NOT going to be pretty in NY unless the newly-purchased pitching comes through in a big way...

As for how this fits into the steroid era issue - I suppose it isn't surprising, but it is, as they say, disappointing...

[What Exit?]

Separate issue: I'm not sure why baseball turned a blind eye to Gaylord Perry since he always cheated openly. That was stupid.
No problem on the criticizing, I wasn't worried about it, just admitting to being that naive.

As to Perry, I don't think you got to see him pitch. It was not that he cheated openly. He did not admit to it until after he retired and he was good, very good at not being caught. Perry was just one of many. It is well established now that Whitey Ford used a scuff ball or cut ball and used it well. I've heard that even Ryan adopted it late in his career and mastered it. It is suspected that even David Cone used it occasionally. There is very little negative press associated with using a 'spitball'. As an older fan I am firmly in the category of fans that doesn't care about it and considers it part of the game.

The numbers of pitchers that used the 'spitball' illegally is probably very large. I would guess in the hundreds. They just used it to varying success. Perry was greatly aided by it. Ford was helped by it and Cone appeared to use it sparingly and usually only when the ball was tossed back to him scuffed. I recently heard an old catcher (Rick Cerone I think) say that Rags could not throw a spitter at all and would toss back a scuffed ball. He seemed to indicate that it was not honesty but a lack of skill and control. In fact the catcher did not seem to think there was any negative stigma to throwing a good 'spitball'.

[gonzomax]

The spitball was once legal. The scuff ball is often a group effort. When they toss the ball around the infield some other player may be scuffing it.

[Hawkeyeop]

Arod acknowledges using steroids.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/29068677/

Should be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Marley23]

The Texas Rangers of the early 2000s were really an all-steroid all-star team. Rodriguez can't be suspended, but we'll see if he's smart enough to be forthright instead of just being self-serving about this. (Yeah, I know, but there could be a first time.)

[E-Sabbath]

There is, of course, always the slim chance the leak is false, _or_ that the test was a false positive.

Doubt it, though.

And now he's admitted it. Eh. sigh.

[Sir T-Cups]

Here is what is surprising/interesting to me....

This test was made to determine how much better testing in baseball needed to be, the results were gonna by anonymous with no repercussions for the ones who tested positive. As it has already been mentioned WHY are those test results still around and a new question I have...

Were they actually illegal at the time? Or was this added to the list once these tests were had.

Also don't forget, A-rod was never told he failed the test. He was told he "may or may not" have failed (which is just stupid to say) and the news that he failed was just as big a shock to him right now as it is to us.

[Marley23]

Were they actually illegal at the time? Or was this added to the list once these tests were had.
Do you mean illegal or banned by baseball?
Also don't forget, A-rod was never told he failed the test.
Cite please?

[What Exit?]

Here is what is surprising/interesting to me....

This test was made to determine how much better testing in baseball needed to be, the results were gonna by anonymous with no repercussions for the ones who tested positive. As it has already been mentioned WHY are those test results still around and a new question I have...

Were they actually illegal at the time? Or was this added to the list once these tests were had.

Also don't forget, A-rod was never told he failed the test. He was told he "may or may not" have failed (which is just stupid to say) and the news that he failed was just as big a shock to him right now as it is to us.
1) The reason the tests and lists were still around is strangely enough the Union's fault. They were trying to fight the results saying many of the positives were actually false positives and it held up the destruction of the tests and results long enough that when the Government subpoenaed the results, they got all 104 names that failed and not just the 10 they wanted for the Balco case. So three factors came into play; all three were the Union’s fault. They did not want testing and negotiated that there would be no testing unless 5% + failed the anonymous testing in 2003. When the results came in less than 6% they dug in their heels and tried to throw out enough results to end testing. They also stonewalled the government on the Balco test results and so got all the testing taken instead.

2) The substances were both illegal by law and illegal by baseball rules. However by baseball rules there was no penalty.

3) But he knows if he did them and apparently he is now willing to admit that he did.

[Marley23]

Ever one to get up on his high horse, Curt Schilling is now demanding the players' union violate its agreements with all 104 players who failed the test.

[gonzomax]

Arod acknowledges using steroids.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/29068677/

Should be interesting to see how this plays out.

Took all the fun out of that. Bonds does not get it. McGwire does not get it. Being liars add immeasurably to the public disgust.

[DudleyGarrett]

One thing I'd like to see from professional baseball: How about we get players to admit it before they're caught and embarrassed? A-Rod really is a total scumbag. Steroid talk has pretty much eclipsed anything else going on in baseball and has for several years, yet he just hits his 500th HR and accepting all the accolades that went along with it, since he was largely considered one of the few "clean" power hitters. He could have easily said, "I dedicate this 500th HR ball to the steroids I took in 2003 when I played with the Rangers. Steroid use is a huge problem in our league and I can't sit idly while my colleagues are getting condemned while I'm also guilty."

Nope, he just kept his mouth shut until he was caught. Fuck him.

[Marley23]

One thing I'd like to see from professional baseball: How about we get players to admit it before they're caught and embarrassed?
Why are they going to do that?

[What Exit?]

One thing I'd like to see from professional baseball: How about we get players to admit it before they're caught and embarrassed? A-Rod really is a total scumbag. Steroid talk has pretty much eclipsed anything else going on in baseball and has for several years, yet he just hits his 500th HR and accepting all the accolades that went along with it, since he was largely considered one of the few "clean" power hitters. He could have easily said, "I dedicate this 500th HR ball to the steroids I took in 2003 when I played with the Rangers. Steroid use is a huge problem in our league and I can't sit idly while my colleagues are getting condemned while I'm also guilty."

Nope, he just kept his mouth shut until he was caught. Fuck him.

Despite being a Yankees fan and being in the position of hoping he has many more great seasons. I actually agree with your post 100%. It would be nice but sadly I doubt it would ever happen.

Marley23, what exactly is Curt looking for? Do you have a link?

[DudleyGarrett]

Why are they going to do that?

Since you truncated my post, I'll repeat a very important part of it.

He could have easily said, "I dedicate this 500th HR ball to the steroids I took in 2003 when I played with the Rangers. Steroid use is a huge problem in our league and I can't sit idly while my colleagues are getting condemned while I'm also guilty."

---

How does the league expect a character problem (cheating) to go away when most high-profile players have problems with their character?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

On the discussion of great players whose careers we could still have some faith in, I think that Greg Maddux, Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter all still appear to be (or have been before they retired) clean. One of things the steroid era has done is obscure the greatness of those within that era who did it without juicing.

[Marley23]

Marley23, what exactly is Curt looking for? Do you have a link?
He wants the release of the names of all 104 players who tested positive in 2003. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3893240)

How does the league expect a character problem (cheating) to go away when most high-profile players have problems with their character?
The league wants its PR problem to go away. Whether steroids go away is incidental at best. The idea of players voluntarily coming clean is nice and all, but if they were that type of people, they wouldn't be cheating in the first place.

[Contrapuntal]

Marley23, what exactly is Curt looking for? Do you have a link?http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3893240

[Gangster Octopus]

Arod is a total scumbag? Why? Is he possibly a bit of a jerk, a bit self-centered and a non-cluthc? Sure he is probably all those things, but c'mon the guy is not a total scumbag.

[DudleyGarrett]

Personally, I don't care for Schilling, but he's right on here. A-Rod's a dick, sure, but he's not the only dick.

[What Exit?]

On the discussion of great players whose careers we could still have some faith in, I think that Greg Maddux, Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter all still appear to be clean. One of things the steroid era has done is obscure the greatness of those within that era who did it without juicing.
I certainly hope you are right. It is now hard to tell. I was one who thought A-Rod was clean.
He wants the release of the names of all 104 players who tested positive in 2003. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3893240)

The idea of players voluntarily coming clean is nice and all, but if they were that type of people, they wouldn't be cheating in the first place.

"I'd be all for the 104 positives being named, and the game moving on if that is at all possible," former Boston ace Curt Schilling wrote on his blog Sunday, referring to the number of players who were tested but assured confidentiality.

"In my opinion, if you don't do that, then the other 600-700 players are going to be guilty by association, forever," he wrote. "It appears that not only was it 104, but three of the greatest of our, or any, generation appear to be on top of this list."
I like Schilling's idea and I don't wish to subscribe to his newsletter (blog). Of course that list of 104 still might not be complete as others were probably using drugs that did not detect with the tests given.

[Gangster Octopus]

I certainly hope you are right. It is now hard to tell. I was one who thought A-Rod was clean.



I like Schilling's idea and I don't wish to subscribe to his newsletter (blog). Of course that list of 104 still might not be complete as others were probably using drugs that did not detect with the tests given.


Sorry, I got to stand by Sean Casey, who is more concerned about the leak, after a collectively bargained agreement was reached that the tests were to be survey tests and anonymous. Releasing all 104 names basically throws that out the window.

[What Exit?]

Arod is a total scumbag? Why? Is he possibly a bit of a jerk, a bit self-centered and a non-cluthc? Sure he is probably all those things, but c'mon the guy is not a total scumbag.

Actually he has been extremely self-centered, cheated with steroids and cheated on his wife with scary cougar Madonna. He is pretty close to a total scumbag. He could be worse but I think he is bad enough to defend DudleyGarrett's post.

[Marley23]

On the discussion of great players whose careers we could still have some faith in, I think that Greg Maddux, Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter all still appear to be (or have been before they retired) clean.
I'd like that to be true, but at this point I wouldn't put money on any of it. I mean, I'd also like for Rodriguez to have given up on performance enhancers after 2003, but we know how likely that is.

[Gangster Octopus]

Actually he has been extremely self-centered, cheated with steroids and cheated on his wife with scary cougar Madonna. He is pretty close to a total scumbag. He could be worse but I think he is bad enough to defend DudleyGarrett's post.


Maybe in the baseball universe he is a total scumbag, but in the universe universe he is pretty much just an unpleasnt person.

[DudleyGarrett]

So who else did Canseco mention in his book that hasn't been officially outted yet?

[MOIDALIZE]

Does the steroid use explain his purple lips?

ESPN had an interesting statistical graphic. The first column is A-Rod's average stats from 2001-2003, the second column is his average for his other 10 seasons (which doesn't include his first 2 seasons with Seattle):

Games/season://///////161.7--------148.4
Batting avg.:////////////.305----------.309
Homers/season:///////52.0-----------39.2
Slugging:////////////////.615-----------.574

[What Exit?]

Maybe in the baseball universe he is a total scumbag, but in the universe universe he is pretty much just an unpleasnt person.
OK, I can live with that. For baseball purposes he is a complete scumbag.

[What Exit?]

So who else did Canseco mention in his book that hasn't been officially outted yet?
These are the ones he specifically mentioned:
Mark McGwire, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro, Iván Rodríguez, and Juan González

In the new book that will probably now get printed: Alex Rodriguez and Albert Belle

[RickJay]

Does the steroid use explain his purple lips?

ESPN had an interesting statistical graphic. The first column is A-Rod's average stats from 2001-2003, the second column is his average for his other 10 seasons (which doesn't include his first 2 seasons with Seattle)
Despite the picked-and-chosen numbers, Rodriguez did not actually hit any better in 2001-2003 than he usually does; he had his two big homer years but in a ballpark that inflates home run totals, and he otherwise wasn't any better than usual. His best (hitting) season so far was actually 2007.

[DudleyGarrett]

These are the ones he specifically mentioned:
Mark McGwire, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro, Iván Rodríguez, and Juan González

In the new book that will probably now get printed: Alex Rodriguez and Albert Belle


(I still can't believe Rafael Palmeiro -- that's the sad one for me).

So when do Pudge and Juan-Gone admit it?

Albert Belle was a scary dude... did he admit juicing?

[What Exit?]

(I still can't believe Rafael Palmeiro -- that's the sad one for me).

So when do Pudge and Juan-Gone admit it?

Albert Belle was a scary dude... did he admit juicing?

Not that I recall.

[Marley23]

Those guys don't have any particular reason to come clean. Gonzalez hasn't played in years and Rodriguez is at the end of his career. He lost a bunch of weight a few offseasons ago, which some people found very suspicious - after steroid testing began for real, I think.

[MOIDALIZE]

Despite the picked-and-chosen numbers, Rodriguez did not actually hit any better in 2001-2003 than he usually does; he had his two big homer years but in a ballpark that inflates home run totals, and he otherwise wasn't any better than usual. His best (hitting) season so far was actually 2007.

They were "picked and chosen" on the basis of when he admitted to using PEDs. I agree that 2007 was his best year, with 1996 (his first full season with Seattle) a close second. In my opinion, it's not his homerun numbers and slugging percentage that stand out from 01-03, it's the fact that he only missed a single game in all three of those years. He missed significant time in Seattle in every season except for 1998. I would never argue that A-Rod, Bonds, or any of those guys weren't naturally gifted hitters, but I do think they got attained an injury recovery advantage through the use of PEDs. That's why Ken Griffey Jr.'s reputation is rock solid in my mind. I think the number of injuries he suffered is proof enough that he stayed clean.

[Marley23]

That's why Ken Griffey Jr.'s reputation is rock solid in my mind. I think the number of injuries he suffered is proof enough that he stayed clean.
This is hopeless. Steroid users have a reputation for breaking down, if you notice what happened to McGwire at the end. And Bonds, and Canseco, and Sosa.

[What Exit?]

They were "picked and chosen" on the basis of when he admitted to using PEDs. I agree that 2007 was his best year, with 1996 (his first full season with Seattle) a close second. In my opinion, it's not his homerun numbers and slugging percentage that stand out from 01-03, it's the fact that he only missed a single game in all three of those years. He missed significant time in Seattle in every season except for 1998. I would never argue that A-Rod, Bonds, or any of those guys weren't naturally gifted hitters, but I do think they got attained an injury recovery advantage through the use of PEDs. That's why Ken Griffey Jr.'s reputation is rock solid in my mind. I think the number of injuries he suffered is proof enough that he stayed clean.

I don't know, I think Griffey is clean but Big Mac had plenty of injuries I thought. At least as many as A-Rod.

[MOIDALIZE]

Yeah, they break down when they're old. But during the prime of their careers, if they're using PEDs they're able to train more, get more out of training, and recover from training and injuries that much faster.

How do you explain all the time A Rod missed in the early part of his career, followed up by him suddenly becoming an iron man after he signed with Texas? How do you explain Bonds averaging 143 games played from age 35-40? Mark McGwire missed most of the 1993 and 1994 seasons, and according to his brother started juicing in 1994, after which he was able to average about 140 games per year over the next 5 seasons (the first of which was strike shortened).

[Hawkeyeop]

Yeah, they break down when they're old. But during the prime of their careers, if they're using PEDs they're able to train more, get more out of training, and recover from training and injuries that much faster.

How do you explain all the time A Rod missed in the early part of his career, followed up by him suddenly becoming an iron man after he signed with Texas? How do you explain Bonds averaging 143 games played from age 35-40?

Man, Lou Gehrig must have been on some good stuff.

[MOIDALIZE]

Man, Lou Gehrig must have been on some good stuff.

Gehrig's last full season was 1938, when he was 35.

[wolfman]

That's why Ken Griffey Jr.'s reputation is rock solid in my mind. I think the number of injuries he suffered is proof enough that he stayed clean.

I am not an expert, but I have been hearing the opposite for years. That hamstring injuries are typical of heavy steroid use, and and getting the bodies musculature out of natural balance. I have heard lots of people say the Griffey's constant hamstring problems constitute near proof of roid use.

off to see if I can find any official stuides about 'roids and hamstrings.

[Hawkeyeop]

Gehrig's last full season was 1938, when he was 35.

An age that Arod hasn't hit. How bout Cal Ripken?

[Munch]

ESPN had an interesting statistical graphic. The first column is A-Rod's average stats from 2001-2003, the second column is his average for his other 10 seasons (which doesn't include his first 2 seasons with Seattle):

Games/season://///////161.7--------148.4
Batting avg.:////////////.305----------.309
Homers/season:///////52.0-----------39.2
Slugging:////////////////.615-----------.574

These numbers are irrelevant. 2003 was his age 27 year - the point at which many players reach their peak. It also marks the last year in which he hit in the tiny confines of The Ballpark at Arlington for 81 games a year, and moved to a relatively less friendly venue.

Regardless, here are Ken Griffey's similar numbers for his year 25-28 seasons, compared to his 10 other best seasons (minus SLG, because I don't want to input all those numbers):


Games/season: 152.7 140.6
Batting average: .297 .299
HR/season: 53.7 33.1
RBI/season: 144 98.4

2nd column years: 1990-1994, 1999-2001, 2005, 2007

Also irrelevant. Too many factors to account for.

[MOIDALIZE]

Ripken was an average hitter with a decent glove who played a bunch of games to secure a legacy for himself. What's your point?

[Robot Arm]

Gehrig's last full season was 1938, when he was 35.And then his production really dropped off. Dude must have been juiced.

[MOIDALIZE]

And then his production really dropped off. Dude must have been juiced.

No, if he had continued mashing the ball after the age of 35, I might believe he was juicing.

Oh, and if not for a little thing called Lou Gehrig's disease.

[Hawkeyeop]

Ripken was an average hitter with a decent glove who played a bunch of games to secure a legacy for himself. What's your point?

Ripken was a fantastic hitter, and above average defender who played long enough for people to forget just how good a hitter he was in his prime. I don't know the guy, but I'm guessing he played a lot of games because he liked playing baseball is. My point is if playing a lot games is a sign of steriod use, then Ripken must have been juicing.

[MOIDALIZE]

Ripken was a fantastic hitter, and above average defender who played long enough for people to forget just how good a hitter he was in his prime. I don't know the guy, but I'm guessing he played a lot of games because he liked playing baseball is. My point is if playing a lot games is a sign of steriod use, then Ripken must have been juicing.

He was a .276 lifetime hitter. He was such a great fielder that he won 2 Gold Gloves his entire career. And I never said games played alone was the key factor, it's the ability to suddenly stay healthy and produce at a high level after your assumed "prime" despite your prior history.

[Fish]

Oh, and if not for a little thing called Lou Gehrig's disease.
Man, what're the odds he'd get that?

[RickJay]

This is hopeless. Steroid users have a reputation for breaking down, if you notice what happened to McGwire at the end. And Bonds, and Canseco, and Sosa.
You're kidding, right? Barry Bonds, the guy who won an MVP award when he was FORTY?

The path the discussion has taken just goes to prove how "I think he's on roids" is pointless. So far we have two distinct lines of thought:

1. If you're durable, you're on roids.
2. If you're not durable, you're on roids.

I think it rather obvious, at least to my eye, that 'roids help recover from injury - I believe steroids probably SAVED Mark McGwire's career, which was going down the tubes midway through due to injuries - but it's obviously going to depend on the individual and their particular reaction and roid of choice.

[Yookeroo]

He was a .276 lifetime hitter. He was such a great fielder that he won 2 Gold Gloves his entire career.

Talk about cherry picking stats. You're using two not very useful ones.

[Stink Fish Pot]

You folks are missing the big picture here.

They still haven't developed a test to positively determine the existence and use of HGH. Also, low-level testosterone injections slide by. So, who the hell knows what is going on? A-Fraud was lying then and he's lying now. He's only admitting what he's been caught doing. But that doesn't mean jack shit if he's been HGHing.

Bonds and Clemens were real HGH users. Bonds freakin' head grew a full size, and his feet grew a couple of inches! What 32 year old man do you know has purchased a new pair of shoes because his feet began to grow again? I still have a few pair I wore in high school.

Clemens is just as rotten as Bonds, and I hope their records get written off the books. Baseball is really the only sport where the numbers matter, and I think it's time to go back to Aaron's career record and Ruth and Maris. We need to flush this era. The players made their money, so big deal if the hall of fame is beyond them.

Older players simply can't recover from injuries as quickly as younger ones. Clemens wasn't superhuman. He had HGH pumped into his system that allowed him to throw 95 mph fastballs into his 40's.

Schilling is right. Now that one name is out, release them all. Everyone is assumed guilty until proven innocent now. The issue of them being released at all is a very disturbing issue, and that person should go to jail. So should the union rep who gave the advanced notices.

What a clusterfuck this is. Who's next? Pick a name. How about Randy Johnson? Griffey? Jeter? Hell, if Brady Anderson could beef up and hit 50 homeruns, why wouldn't everyone else start sucking them down? CC Sabathia? The man has incredible arm strength and tremendous recovery ability. It could go on and on.

Nolan Ryan used to cheat... he used to put a hole in front of the pitching rubber and throw from it when he thought he could get away with it. And that one foot made a difference when the Ryan Express was on the mound. Gaylord was a hack, but he was a good cheater who mastered his craft of cheating. I can live with those two in the hall. But pumping your body up with unnatural products to become something you could never be? Don't see it being right. And until they find a test for HGH, I'm sure that will continue to be popular.

I used to love baseball. I think it sucks now. And the steroid era is the reason for my dislike of it.

[Carmady]

I used to love baseball. I think it sucks now. And the steroid era is the reason for my dislike of it.


How exactly are you defining the "steroid era"? Steroids and amphetamines were standard procedure in baseball for half a century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_House#Steroids

This guy (a teammate of Hank Aaron) claims that more players were on steroids in the 70s than are now. That makes sense: The culture was more permissive of drug use, there were no rules against them, and the negative side effects were less well known.

I can understand wanting to pretend current players are somehow worse, but the only difference is that public opinion has turned against what baseball has been doing all along.

[Munch]

He was a .276 lifetime hitter. He was such a great fielder that he won 2 Gold Gloves his entire career. And I never said games played alone was the key factor, it's the ability to suddenly stay healthy and produce at a high level after your assumed "prime" despite your prior history.

And yet you think that A-Rod not hitting as well as he did in his "prime" is damning evidence... (Not that we need evidence for A-Rod.) You're all over the place, MOIDALIZE.

[What Exit?]

You're kidding, right? Barry Bonds, the guy who won an MVP award when he was FORTY?

The path the discussion has taken just goes to prove how "I think he's on roids" is pointless. So far we have two distinct lines of thought:

1. If you're durable, you're on roids.
2. If you're not durable, you're on roids.

I think it rather obvious, at least to my eye, that 'roids help recover from injury - I believe steroids probably SAVED Mark McGwire's career, which was going down the tubes midway through due to injuries - but it's obviously going to depend on the individual and their particular reaction and roid of choice.
All good points but I thought Canseco indicated that he and Big Mac started on steroids as early as '89.
They still haven't developed a test to positively determine the existence and use of HGH. Also, low-level testosterone injections slide by. So, who the hell knows what is going on? A-Fraud was lying then and he's lying now. He's only admitting what he's been caught doing. But that doesn't mean jack shit if he's been HGHing.
...
Schilling is right. Now that one name is out, release them all. Everyone is assumed guilty until proven innocent now. The issue of them being released at all is a very disturbing issue, and that person should go to jail. So should the union rep who gave the advanced notices.
I would like to point out these two ideas contradict each other. As you pointed out, many players would have cheated with proscribed drugs and never got caught and some are probably still using proscribed drugs to cheat. Releasing all the names only shows us which 104 got caught, not which players are clean. I would like to see the list, but it won’t prove the other 800+ players tested were clean.

BTW: I don’t think a Union Rep that gave advance notice violated any laws. The drug testing was not a legal matter but a contractual one.

[RickJay]

Incidentally, was in the steroids that caused Alex Rodriguez's skin to turn orange? What the hell is wrong with his face? He looks like a tangerine.

I'm starting to think the guy has mental problems. He appears to have no conception of how his behaviour will affect the opinions of other humans.

[Marley23]

The path the discussion has taken just goes to prove how "I think he's on roids" is pointless. So far we have two distinct lines of thought:
That was my exact point. Longevity or injury history alone is not enough evidence - particularly if both durability and breakdowns are considered evidence of steroid use.

[MOIDALIZE]

And yet you think that A-Rod not hitting as well as he did in his "prime" is damning evidence... (Not that we need evidence for A-Rod.) You're all over the place, MOIDALIZE.

When did I say that?

[lieu]

Incidentally, was in the steroids that caused Alex Rodriguez's skin to turn orange? What the hell is wrong with his face? He looks like a tangerine.I've seen two things do that to a person. One is the spray-on tan that the gals use.

The other is a diet that includes an appreciable, maybe almost an extreme, amount of carrots. My guess would be that he puts them in a... umm... juicer.

[Carl Corey]

Guys, we know that Griffey hasn't been using steroids or HGH.

He's been drinking that damn nerve and brain tonic.

[Stink Fish Pot]

I would like to point out these two ideas contradict each other. As you pointed out, many players would have cheated with proscribed drugs and never got caught and some are probably still using proscribed drugs to cheat. Releasing all the names only shows us which 104 got caught, not which players are clean. I would like to see the list, but it won’t prove the other 800+ players tested were clean.

I see your point, and you are right. But if I were clean, and I had a legit shot of going to the hall, I'd take a drug test right now. To your point, though... the list released will not show who's using HGH or other PED's that we don't even know about.


BTW: I don’t think a Union Rep that gave advance notice violated any laws. The drug testing was not a legal matter but a contractual one.
You may be right here, but for some reason I thought Congress pushed for the testing, and the union agreed. But I admit my memory is fuzzy on the sequence. In any event, if it wasn't illegal, it certainly was outside the spirit of the testing. My biggest question on the supposed anonymous testing is why were names ever recorded in the first place? If it was just to get an idea of the level of the problem, then why not just go into each clubhouse, pass out the appropriate number of cups, have someone accompany the player into the bathroom to make sure no urine substitution was happening, and take it away without any name associated with it at all?

That's strange to me.


How exactly are you defining the "steroid era"? Steroids and amphetamines were standard procedure in baseball for half a century.

This is a good question. I don't know the answer to a day, but I can say that two things stand out in my mind that made me look at baseball differently. The first was Brady Anderson. I lived in Baltimore at the time, and this guy was a pee-wee one year, and the next he pounded out 50 home runs. At the time, very few people hit 50 home runs in baseball history, and it was a fairly big deal. Willie Stargell never hit 50 home runs in a season (I think). George Foster did it twice (again, from memory) and it was a huge deal. How many times did Hank Aaron do it? 50 home runs was the barometer for a monster year, and then it began to become routine.

The second thing was the bash brothers in Oakland. Take a look at Mark McGuire's rookie card. He was a skinny kid with a big swing. Dave Kingman-like. Canseco shows up, clearly muscle bound, and McGuire grows into a monster. Sosa turned into a monster. I've seen friends at the gym on steroids, so I'm a bit familiar with the changes that can be achieved. I am not familiar with HGH, other than what I've read.

amphetamines for some reason don't bother me as much as the 'roid/HGH use. I've never taken any of these things, but I did play baseball through college, and I always thought amphetamines were just "uppers", like 6 cups of coffee. Clearly performance enhancing if you needed a pick me up, but would it cause the user to hit homers? I don't know.

As far as 'roid use through the 70's, I am sure that happened, but to what extent we'll never know. Could Hammerin' Hank have used them? God I hope not. But I wouldn't be surprised at all if Ricky Henderson used HGH or something. He was stealing bases in his late 30's and cranking home runs too. The man was ripped. No evidence, though.

What would you propose? Just ignore the whole era and let the home run records stand?

[gonzomax]

I still think a separate room in the Hall for the steroid era would be good. The problem is defining the beginning and end of the era. End assumes it has ended. I have doubts. HGH and newer stuff come out over and over. It is a quandary . No answer will satisfy everybody. But, you almost have to assume everybody was dirty.

[Hawkeyeop]

I still think a separate room in the Hall for the steroid era would be good. The problem is defining the beginning and end of the era. End assumes it has ended. I have doubts. HGH and newer stuff come out over and over. It is a quandary . No answer will satisfy everybody. But, you almost have to assume everybody was dirty.

Nah that is easy. Just start it at about 1880 and end it when they stop playing baseball.

[Marley23]

And then you'd have to explain why the steroid era deserves a separate wing and the amphetamine era doesn't. Maybe the real answer here is to drop our illusions about baseball.

[Fish]

But if I were clean, and I had a legit shot of going to the hall, I'd take a drug test right now.
I'm sure the players' union discourages this kind of thinking. A few players could step forward voluntarily for testing, which would make the others look bad; the more players willing to step forward, the more scrutiny on the rest. Also consider that even if this situation were to happen it would only prove you're clean now (of any detectable substances) not that you were always clean.

[What Exit?]

Has baseball adopted the urine sample storage yet so when a test becomes available they can go back and retest for HGH? I believe that biking and the Olympics do this already but I don't know if MLB or NFL do yet.


Marley23, do you really put bennies in the same category as HGH and Steroids?

Fish, the union has already discouraged players stepping forward to be tested.

[Marley23]

Marley23, do you really put bennies in the same category as HGH and Steroids?
Why shouldn't they be? They're against the rules for the same reasons, they're used by players looking to gain an edge... what's the difference?

[Fish]

I still think a separate room in the Hall for the steroid era would be good.
I think the whole notion of the personality qualification for the Hall of Fame is silly. There are all kinds of fame — if you can't be famous, be infamous.

The Hall of Fame would sell about as many tickets to see Pete Rose there as they would lose from people not wanting to see Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe, etc. The Hall already has its share of racists, cheaters and assholes. The only reason to perpetuate this nonsense is to give owners an axe to hold over the heads of players to enforce good behavior as defined by the owners themselves. When was the last time you saw an owner get kicked out of the HoF?

Edit: I know, What Exit?. I said so in my post.

[Hawkeyeop]

Has baseball adopted the urine sample storage yet so when a test becomes available they can go back and retest for HGH? I believe that biking and the Olympics do this already but I don't know if MLB or NFL do yet.



The union hasn't agreed to it. Given the treatment of their anonyomous testing results, I highly doubt that they would.

[What Exit?]

Why shouldn't they be? They're against the rules for the same reasons, they're used by players looking to gain an edge... what's the difference?
I see a difference between them is why I asked. Instead of bennies a player could drink many cups of coffee or 'energy' drinks. This is possibly and even probably more dangerous then the bennies.

The bennies did not lead to an explosion of home runs and appears to have been common back to the 50s.

Hawkeyeop, the union may need to be forced to allow it if the sport has any hopes of cleaning up. It is the threat of retroactive testing that will keep most players off the stuff. Then mostly only marginal players will take a chance.

[Hawkeyeop]

I see a difference between them is why I asked. Instead of bennies a player could drink many cups of coffee or 'energy' drinks. This is possibly and even probably more dangerous then the bennies.


And a player could load up on creatine and other legal supplements instead of steriods. They took bennies because they thought they worked better, just like people take steroids because they thought they would work better.

The bennies did not lead to an explosion of home runs and appears to have been common back to the 50s.

Um so?

Hawkeyeop, the union may need to be forced to allow it if the sport has any hopes of cleaning up. It is the threat of retroactive testing that will keep most players off the stuff. Then mostly only marginal players will take a chance.

If you want to make sure that all players are 100% clean than you need to have surveillance on them 24/7. Obviously the players wouldn't and shouldn't agree to that. They have a right to privacy. You need to find the line that balances the rights of players and the integrity of the game. This is why the union can't allow players to go get tested on their own. It undermines the privacy of the rest of their members.

Now if I'm a player, regardless as to what my guilt, I'd be outraged if anon records leaked. I'd be extremely hesitant to trust these people in protecting my medical records. The desire for people to believe a sport clean, an impossible goal, is not worth trammeling on privacy rights. It isn’t like those extra home-runs were a danger to society.

[RickJay]

IThis is a good question. I don't know the answer to a day, but I can say that two things stand out in my mind that made me look at baseball differently. The first was Brady Anderson. I lived in Baltimore at the time, and this guy was a pee-wee one year, and the next he pounded out 50 home runs. At the time, very few people hit 50 home runs in baseball history, and it was a fairly big deal. Willie Stargell never hit 50 home runs in a season (I think). George Foster did it twice (again, from memory) and it was a huge deal. How many times did Hank Aaron do it? 50 home runs was the barometer for a monster year, and then it began to become routine.

The second thing was the bash brothers in Oakland. Take a look at Mark McGuire's rookie card. He was a skinny kid with a big swing. Dave Kingman-like. Canseco shows up, clearly muscle bound, and McGuire grows into a monster. Sosa turned into a monster. I've seen friends at the gym on steroids, so I'm a bit familiar with the changes that can be achieved. I am not familiar with HGH, other than what I've read.
McGwire.

Firt of all, let's get the timeline straight; Canseco didn't show up, McGwire did. Canseco arrived before McGwire. (And on other nitpicky notes, Foster had one 50-homer year, 1977. Stargell and Aaron had none.)

Secondly, it's a fool's game to try to divine steroid use by statistics. McGwire hit 49 homers as a rookie. That's 11 more than any other rookie season ever; clearly, the guy was not like other guys. A lot of steroid users are scrubs with no big home run years at all. If you ascribe any home run burst to steroids you'd have to conclude that Babe Ruth was on steroids, and Mickey Mantle, and that steroids suddenly became less popular in the late 60s. Hank aaron, who suddenly had his best home run percentages in his mid-to-late 30s, apparently discovered steroids late. You'd also have to conclude they were very popular in 1987 and then everyone stopped taking them in 1988, when home run totals dropped about 40%. Or you'd have to conclude all the pitchers started using 'roids in the 60s, but stopped using them in 1969.

Statistical standards in baseball are not consistent. In 1908 the average NL player hit .239 with one home run and made twice as many errors as a player in 2008. Home runs went from being rare events to commonplace between 1919 and 1929. Stolen bases were discarded as a strategy for thirty or forty YEARS before suddenly coming back into vogue in the 60s. The AL batting avedrage in 1968 was .230; five years later it was .258.

You can't just assume a guy who hits a lot of home runs is on steroids (and you can't assume a scrub who doesn't hit a lot of homers isn't.) Home runs are up today for a lot of reasons; ballpark construction, changes in the way bats are made, weight training (independent of steroids) and hitting approaches and philosophy.

Similarly, I'm leery of using a guy's physical appearance as proof he's on roids. (Barry Bonds, okay, is an extreme case.) Rafael Palmiero didn't look like he was on roids but apparently he was. A-Rod (henceforth "Oompa Loompa" for his scary orange skin) all lean and tall, doesn't look like a roider, but he is. On the other hand, Frank Thomas was built like an Abrams tank but I've never heard so much as a whisper he ever took steroids. Guys do get bigger and more muscular into their thirties - "old man strength," they call it in strength sports like shot put and hammer throw. And you can take roids and apoparently not look like a cartoon, as Palmiero and Oompa Loompa demonstrate.

[Hawkeyeop]

This is a good question. I don't know the answer to a day, but I can say that two things stand out in my mind that made me look at baseball differently. The first was Brady Anderson. I lived in Baltimore at the time, and this guy was a pee-wee one year, and the next he pounded out 50 home runs. At the time, very few people hit 50 home runs in baseball history, and it was a fairly big deal. Willie Stargell never hit 50 home runs in a season (I think). George Foster did it twice (again, from memory) and it was a huge deal. How many times did Hank Aaron do it? 50 home runs was the barometer for a monster year, and then it began to become routine.



At age 27 this player tied a career high with 10 home-runs. The next year he hit 18 in 510 at bats. At 29 he hit just 5 in 376 at bats. At 30 he hit 43 in 559 at bats and had a slg of more than 100 points more than he ever did previously. He hit 27 hrs more in the rest of his career.

So my question is, what do you think Davey Johnson was on?

[Marley23]

Instead of bennies a player could drink many cups of coffee or 'energy' drinks. This is possibly and even probably more dangerous then the bennies.
But coffee and energy drinks are not illegal or against the rules, and I don't see any reason they should be.
The bennies did not lead to an explosion of home runs and appears to have been common back to the 50s.
So steroids are bad because they cause home runs (tell it to the pitchers who juice), or are they bad because they're new (for the last two decades)? The answer is neither in my opinion. I don't see any moral difference between taking amphetamines, which Barry Bonds failed a test for, don't forget, and taking steroids. Maybe one is more effective than the other, but nobody would do either if they did not believe they work and create an edge.

[gonzomax]

The fences were moved in at many parks. The baseballs are reported to be wound tighter and are on steroids. The league shrunk the strike zone so pitchers have to serve up pitches. There are other factors.

[cmosdes]

I'm going to get slammed for this, but if you want to talk "bobble head" as an indication someone is juiced, that is *exactly* what I see when I saw this (http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/09U8esn1ZgaRa/610x.jpg) image.

[Stink Fish Pot]

At age 27 this player tied a career high with 10 home-runs. The next year he hit 18 in 510 at bats. At 29 he hit just 5 in 376 at bats. At 30 he hit 43 in 559 at bats and had a slg of more than 100 points more than he ever did previously. He hit 27 hrs more in the rest of his career.

So my question is, what do you think Davey Johnson was on?

Davey Johnson? How the hell do I know? Heroin? Maybe it was his contract year. Maybe he was in love. Maybe he had a good pair of glasses. That's one of the stranger outlier years I've seen. Good bar betting material in that guy's career stats.


Firt of all, let's get the timeline straight; Canseco didn't show up, McGwire did. Canseco arrived before McGwire. (And on other nitpicky notes, Foster had one 50-homer year, 1977. Stargell and Aaron had none.)

Thanks for setting the record straight. It was early this morning. I was working from memory. I was young, I felt a lot of pressure to come up with the answers my fans expected from one of the best posters of, well.... all time. I didn't know what I was taking, but the truth will set me free.

So, after reading this thread, I've come to a serious question.

Who really cares? Baseball is entertainment. Turn it into professional wrestling. Any drugs these players take hurt the players and not me or any one else. So, if you have the opinion that you can't separate the 'roiders from the clean players (and I'm not sure I disagree with this), then open up the pharmacy and let the games begin. Everyone will be on the same playing field, everyone will have access to the same drugs, and no one will be able to complain that they tried to play clean. Those players that choose to try it on talent will be gone from the game quicker than you can say Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake.

Does this bother anyone? If so, why? They are just ballplayers, after all. They are there to entertain us, not to hold to some moral code. The hell with it all. At least it would all be understood for what it is... a game to entertain.

I don't know. I'm one of those people that thought the stats mattered, but I guess I've been naive. Stats are subjective... dead ball era, live ball era, big ballparks, small ballparks, when the pitchers took over in the late 60's, baseball lowered the mound. So what's the big deal about steroids? Maybe none. One thing I think we can all agree on. Babe Ruth was on hot dogs, Mantle on beer.

Another statistical nugget. The Mendoza line, which was named for Mario Mendoza, stands for a batting average of .200. Mario Mendoza's lifetime average was .215. Bob Uecker's lifetime average was .200. Go figure.

[gonzomax]

Tejada , it is rumored will plead guilty to lying to congress about steroids today. He will hope he does not get thrown in jail.

[Stink Fish Pot]

Tejada , it is rumored will plead guilty to lying to congress about steroids today. He will hope he does not get thrown in jail.

I doubt he'll get jail time. From what I read, he lied about knowing about steroid use in his clubhouse, not about using them himself. Not ratting out fellow ballplayers doesn't seem like a major offense, even though he did lie to the government. I figure he plea bargained and will admit to the lying in exchange for either parole or a suspended sentence.