How can I approach this girl in a way that's not creepy?

[Vox Imperatoris]

Okay, there's a girl at my school who I have a huge crush on (and I acknowledge that this is pure infatuation, but everything has to start somewhere). The problem is that we're not really in the same social circle; it's not that one of us is one of the "cool kids" and the other is not but more that my friends don't know hers, and hers don't know mine, and I don't have any classes or extracurricular activities with her. This is mainly because she is German and interacts more (though by no means exclusively) with the other German people at my school and because we're not in the same grade. Because of this, unless I ran up to her in the three minutes between classes, there is literally no time in the day where I can just "go up and talk to her" (we don't even have lunch at the same time).

I've asked a couple of other people for advice, but they haven't been very helpful. As for what I'm trying to accomplish, I'm not really sure. It has been suggested that I just ask her out on a date, but I think that would be far too forward without, you know, speaking to her first. :) And in any case, I can't do that without approaching her and talking, anyway.

So my options seem to be:
1. Track her down and talk to her between classes anyway. This, I think, would be incredibly awkward, both because there is not enough time to have a conversation, and because I know I wouldn't want someone randomly coming up to me and trying to ask me out when I was trying to get to class.
2. Talking to her over Facebook. This, too, just seems like it would be weird without speaking to her in person first. I'm having a hard time imagining how it would go, "Hey, I've seen you around at school—yeah?" I just think it would be a bit loser-ish.
3. Talking to one of her friends. This just seems so after-school-special-ish, "Hey, you know Jenny (not real name). Do you think she would like me?" I don't know what I would say or how that could possibly turn out for the good.
4. Something else that actually sounds like a good idea. Beats me what this might be.

I realize that I'm probably overthinking this way too much, but I don't know what else to do. I think it's just part of my nature—I plan out in my mind how conversations will go, and it always turns out better than I imagine it would, especially if I don't try to follow a plan. (My ratio of materials read on social interaction to social interaction made is way too high. ;)) I also don't want it to sound like I'm obsessing over this girl. If she turned me down, I would be disappointed, but I would not go crazy-stalker over her.

So what do you think? Do you think it's acceptable, in this day and age, to just ask someone out on a date out-of-the-blue (which I think would be very creepy)? If not, what should I do to approach her in a non-creepy way?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[lobotomyboy63]

Use your eyes. Across a crowded hallway, look at her till she looks back. Do this gently, not the "up-and-down/I like what I see," but, "Ooh, you're interesting." She will look away. Keep looking at her till she looks back to confirm for herself that it wasn't her imagination. Smile.

When you see her later, approach her with a handshake. "I'm Vox. Hey, you're in the choir/on the debate team/friends with Lucy, aren't you?" Small talk. "Well, I've got to go, but it was nice talking to you."

Build from there till you're not a complete stranger, but don't let her feel *too* comfortable. Be a little mysterious without being dangerous. Then maybe invite her for coffee or something.

That's my WAG.

Good luck!

[Vox Imperatoris]

Use your eyes. Across a crowded hallway, look at her till she looks back. Do this gently, not the "up-and-down/I like what I see," but, "Ooh, you're interesting." She will look away. Keep looking at her till she looks back to confirm for herself that it wasn't her imagination. Smile.

That's the problem. There is no time in the day where we would be in the same "crowded hallway". We don't have break at the same spot or lunch at the same time.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Fake Tales of San Francisco]

If there's never a point when you actually come into contact with her, even visually, then how do you know you even like her...? :eek:

[lobotomyboy63]

That's the problem. There is no time in the day where we would be in the same "crowded hallway". We don't have break at the same spot or lunch at the same time.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

There's no way you can position yourself to be in her proximity? From your post I'm guessing you're in high school (?). Does she drive to school? Can you be in that parking lot before or after? Know of any school events she'd likely attend? Any local hangouts that she frequents with friends?

Sorry, it *is* a bit stalkerish but what's a boy to do, right? And you know, it isn't stalking if she's into you. :eek:;)

[Electric Warrior]

Are there any school dances coming up? It seems pretty normal for boys to ask girls they don't know very well but have crushes on to events like Homecoming or a Valentine's Day dance.

[Vox Imperatoris]

If there's never a point when you actually come into contact with her, even visually, then how do you know you even like her...? :eek:

I didn't say I've not actually seen her, and we do have the morning assembly in the gym at the same time (but we sit in different groups on opposite sides of the gym), and before I started driving, we were occasionally in the carpool waiting area at the same time. Not that I worked up the courage to talk to her at the time... And like I said, it's purely an crush/infatuation attraction, but I would like to get to know her.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

ETA: No school dances that I know of coming up, and besides, they've always been completely unenjoyable experiences, mainly because I have no idea how to dance properly. She does not drive to school, either.

[DianaG]

I didn't say I've not actually seen her, and we do have the morning assembly in the gym at the same time (but we sit in different groups on opposite sides of the gym
Well then there IS a time of day when you have opportunity. Wander in a bit late and position yourself near the door she'll be exiting. You'll have time to establish eye contact during the assembly, and you can try to chat her up as you leave.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Well then there IS a time of day when you have opportunity. Wander in a bit late and position yourself near the door she'll be exiting. You'll have time to establish eye contact during the assembly, and you can try to chat her up as you leave.

That wouldn't work. After the bell rings, everyone stampedes out the door in a rush to get to class. There just wouldn't be any time for this "chat" to happen. And the gym is a bit too large to establish eye contact with someone on the other side.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[clayton_e]

End every sentence with "Valete!"

It'll be your charming thing. She won't forget you in any case.

[DianaG]

Your high school must be vastly different from what I remember then. As I recall, there was always time for flirting.

[lobotomyboy63]

I didn't say I've not actually seen her, and we do have the morning assembly in the gym at the same time (but we sit in different groups on opposite sides of the gym), and before I started driving, we were occasionally in the carpool waiting area at the same time. Not that I worked up the courage to talk to her at the time... And like I said, it's purely an crush/infatuation attraction, but I would like to get to know her.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

So you're on one side with your buddies and she's on the other side with hers? Are these assigned seats or could you and your buddies decide to sit on the other side one morning?

Let's go back to that carpool thing. When you *do* get a chance to see her (e.g. random occurrence, you both stayed after for tutoring or saw her at the store, something), using your eyes could help gauge her interest or willingness to be approached. Lemme guess: you didn't make a lot of eye contact because you thought she'd see through you. It's time to stop keeping your interest a secret, IMO.

Do you think if you looked at her at morning assembly, she'd be close enough to able to tell you were looking at her?

ETA sorry, was composing when you shot down the last part.

[Vox Imperatoris]

So you're on one side with your buddies and she's on the other side with hers? Are these assigned seats or could you and your buddies decide to sit on the other side one morning?

Let's go back to that carpool thing. When you *do* get a chance to see her (e.g. random occurrence, you both stayed after for tutoring or saw her at the store, something), using your eyes could help gauge her interest or willingness to be approached. Lemme guess: you didn't make a lot of eye contact because you thought she'd see through you. It's time to stop keeping your interest a secret, IMO.

Do you think if you looked at her at morning assembly, she'd be close enough to able to tell you were looking at her?

They are assigned seats, so the homeroom teachers can count the people and a take a lunch count. She also tends to go to that seat right when she gets there, or otherwise I would try to talk to her before. You would assume correctly about the eye contact thing (I'm kind of shy, if you couldn't tell), but no, I don't think it would be close enough to make eye contact with someone on the other side of the room. That's just my opinion, of course, but I'm pretty sure if someone were looking at me, I wouldn't notice.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[lobotomyboy63]

They are assigned seats, so the homeroom teachers can count the people and a take a lunch count. She also tends to go to that seat right when she gets there, or otherwise I would try to talk to her before. You would assume correctly about the eye contact thing (I'm kind of shy, if you couldn't tell), but no, I don't think it would be close enough to make eye contact with someone on the other side of the room. That's just my opinion, of course, but I'm pretty sure if someone were looking at me, I wouldn't notice.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

I have an assignment for you. When you go to school, look the young women in the eye as you're walking down the hall. Be relaxed about it, because you don't want to appear to challenge or ogle. But don't look away till they look away.

It's natural to look at things we like. Some will look away immediately...others will hold your gaze longer than you think. And there will probably be low correlation to your expectations...the ones you'd figure to be out of your league will respond to your "confidence." Others just won't be interested.

Isn't making eye contact a lot easier than trying to come up with clever conversation material? And, it's a prelude to it. You don't even have to be all that close to them.

[NAF1138]

They are assigned seats, so the homeroom teachers can count the people and a take a lunch count. She also tends to go to that seat right when she gets there, or otherwise I would try to talk to her before. You would assume correctly about the eye contact thing (I'm kind of shy, if you couldn't tell), but no, I don't think it would be close enough to make eye contact with someone on the other side of the room. That's just my opinion, of course, but I'm pretty sure if someone were looking at me, I wouldn't notice.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

Ok, so you need to change your attitude about all this first.

Every one of your responses to this thread is reasons why you can't get to know her, and you are creating that trap for yourself. "I'm shy." "There isn't a time when we could ever possibly be within shouting distance of each other" "We don't know any of the same people"

Bullshit. You are giving excuses not reasons. Every roadblock you have mentioned is either trivial or one that you have created yourself.

Sorry for being so blunt, but you have to learn how to date eventually. You might as well get good at it in High School.

Three things you need to understand.

1) You know who she is and (hopefully) her name. You know she is German and hangs out with the German kids. Clearly she isn't some far off goddess that you can't know. You are acting like she is a person you have only read about in magazines. She goes to your school! You may not get a lot of chances to see her and even fewer to talk to her, but clearly you do see her. If you didn't you wouldn't have a crush on her, because you wouldn't know she existed. And you probably have chances to talk to her on a nearly weekly basis.

2) Your smart, and on here at least, fairly well spoken. You have no reason not to be confident in your ability to approach her.

3) If she rejects you, it really isn't a big deal. And the sooner you learn how to deal with that the happier you will be as an adult.


Seek her out. Find a reason to say hi and introduce yourself. I think that the eye contact thing might be hard for you if you are as shy as you say you are (God knows I have never been good at it, and I have never met a another person as shy or socially awkward as I was). But suck it up and find a chance to say hi. She needs to know your name. Once she knows who you are, follow it up with some other kind of contact on another day (facebook is fine).

But the biggest thing is to get out of your head, you are making this harder than it has to be.

[Man With a Cat]

I'm not entirely sold on the fact that sending her a fast "hey, how ya doin?" through Facebook is all that loser-ish. Nothing too forward, something that says you remember her from the carpool thing, and maybe a little something about how "hell, I'm not really good at this" (implying the shy, slightly geeky yet secretly funny and caring), thus explaining why, on the times you did see her, you got tongue tied.

Tell her something about how all the times you see her, "something" just caught your eye, it's more than how she looks, which by the way is awesome, but since you don't ever seem to be able to find time to talk IRL, that what about making a few minutes to chat somewhere, anywhere she's comfortable.

See where that goes.

And yes, I've been married since 9 years before you were born, and not on the dating scene, but as a single guy, all those eons back, I usually dated WAY over my head. We didn't have e-mail, or Facebook, but that kind of message on an actual chiseled slab was good. Plus it has the advantage of being the complete truth, it's a no BS, "here I am, what's it going to hurt to have a latte" message.

[ShelliBean]

Why don't you, Biff, Paulie, and Herbert get together and make a plan to go to the local sock hop on Friday night and send one representative to the ladies' group to say "we are going out on Friday and thought you, Mary, Delilah and Precious would like to come. We can even pick you up. Say 6:30?"

No pressure on you one on one and you get to do some socializing.

No, I'm not being snarky I just couldn't think of an exact thing to do and the names and activity are interchangeable anyway.

[don't ask]

If she is German and hangs with the German kids impress her by one weekend invading Poland.

[Vox Imperatoris]

I'm not entirely sold on the fact that sending her a fast "hey, how ya doin?" through Facebook is all that loser-ish. Nothing too forward, something that says you remember her from the carpool thing, and maybe a little something about how "hell, I'm not really good at this" (implying the shy, slightly geeky yet secretly funny and caring), thus explaining why, on the times you did see her, you got tongue tied.

Tell her something about how all the times you see her, "something" just caught your eye, it's more than how she looks, which by the way is awesome, but since you don't ever seem to be able to find time to talk IRL, that what about making a few minutes to chat somewhere, anywhere she's comfortable.

See where that goes.

And yes, I've been married since 9 years before you were born, and not on the dating scene, but as a single guy, all those eons back, I usually dated WAY over my head. We didn't have e-mail, or Facebook, but that kind of message on an actual chiseled slab was good. Plus it has the advantage of being the complete truth, it's a no BS, "here I am, what's it going to hurt to have a latte" message.

Well, I probably will end up doing messaging her over Facebook, if nothing else. But at the same time, I agree with NAF1138 that she needs to know who I am, more than just over the internet, first. And I know they're excuses, but I still can't think of a good time to go up to her and say hi. And looking back, waiting in the carpool line would have been the perfect time to do it, but hindsight is 20/20.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

ETA: ShelliBean, if only I knew of any good sock hops. ;) I just tend to be the guy who people don't mind hanging out with, but whom nobody invites.

[42fish]

If she is German and hangs with the German kids impress her by one weekend invading Poland.

No, no that's coming on too strong. Start by remilitarizing the Rhineland and work your way up.

[Man With a Cat]

ETA: ShelliBean, if only I knew of any good sock hops. ;) I just tend to be the guy who people don't mind hanging out with, but whom nobody invites.

:: Raising hand, jumping up and down ::

Yeah, my first couple years in high school that was me. Start hanging with the Hot German Girl, and suddenly people want you around?


Second stray thought: Does she work somewhere?

[Cat Fight]

3. Talking to one of her friends. This just seems so after-school-special-ish, "Hey, you know Jenny (not real name). Do you think she would like me?" I don't know what I would say or how that could possibly turn out for the good.


I might not advocate this normally, but you're a teen. Do this. Sort of. But don't ask 'Do you think she'd go out with me?' but something like 'Is she seeing anyone?' When they ask why, just say you were talking with some friends and trying to figure it out. They may have a giggle at your expense but, if you're at least mildly attractive, you'll be pointed out across a room at a future date and you'll be on her mind, if only temporarily.

If you want to go really high school, approach her and ask about the status of one of her girlfriends.

[Cisco]

So my options seem to be:
1. Track her down and talk to her between classes anyway. This, I think, would be incredibly awkward, both because there is not enough time to have a conversation, and because I know I wouldn't want someone randomly coming up to me and trying to ask me out when I was trying to get to class.
2. Talking to her over Facebook. This, too, just seems like it would be weird without speaking to her in person first. I'm having a hard time imagining how it would go, "Hey, I've seen you around at school—yeah?" I just think it would be a bit loser-ish.
3. Talking to one of her friends. This just seems so after-school-special-ish, "Hey, you know Jenny (not real name). Do you think she would like me?" I don't know what I would say or how that could possibly turn out for the good.
4. Something else that actually sounds like a good idea. Beats me what this might be.
5. Just don't be creepy.

You can't teach not creepy.

[not_alice]

lobotomy and naf are giving you excellent advice. I wish they gave me that advice when I was your age. Also the advice to seek to create even informal group activities to reduce pressures is a very good one.

I will add, in case it is not clear, take into account that gym/shower thread when you do talk to her.

Also, if she is an exchange student, or hanging out with exchange students, she is both more lonely and more interested in meeting people and doing any activities than you can possibly imagine. She is in the middle of her experience of a lifetime possibly. I have acted as a kind of "big brother" to college exchange students as an adult - it completely changed my outlook on what those cute exchange students in high school would have been like had I been brave enough to just introduce myself.

You are a fine student I have no doubt. Now you are just at an age where you are going to learn some new lessons. Looked at that way, you have done it a million times before, and as you know, perfection at first try never was needed or expected before. It won't be this time either, you will be fine.

ETA: more good advice during simulposts.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Piff. You're making excuses for yourself, Vox. Now, I will admit, it's been a good ten years since I was chatting the girls up in high school hallways, and we didn't have this new fangled facebook thingy... but women always appreciate a face-to-face contact more than notes or discussions via-friends, especially introductions.

If you can't finagle some way to find yourself walking down the same hallway in the same direction at the time she does... well, you're not cunning enough to deserve a girl. Hell, be late for a class, if need be.

[Suburban Plankton]

So my options seem to be:
1. Track her down and talk to her between classes anyway.
Do this. Really.

I speak from personal experience, because I did exactly this to Rhiannon8404 many years ago. We were in college, it was finals week, and the only way I knew to get her attention was to sit in the hallway outside her Econ final. The conversation went something like this...

Her: "Oh...hi...what are you doing here?"
Me: "Waiting for you"

We celebrated our 15th anniversary last May.

One thing that isn't clear from your OP is whether or not the girl in question would recognize you as "someone she knows" should she suddenly be confronted with you outside class. If the answer to this question is no, then I'm not sure this plan will work. But if she has any idea who you are, and has even the slightest interest in you, then you stand a good chance that the flattery aspect ("oh, he thought enough to make a bold and potentially embarassing move for me") should trump any vague creepiness from being "stalked".

Figure it this way...the worst thing that will happen is that you will find out she really isn't interested in you. The best-case scenario is beyond your wildest imagination at this point. And no matter what happens, there is no way you will look back and say "I wonder what would have happened if..."


I wasn't then, and still am not now, a terribly outgoing person. In fact, this sort of thing is really out of character for me. But I gave it a shot, and it worked out.

Go for it.

[Fish]

2. Talking to her over Facebook. This, too, just seems like it would be weird without speaking to her in person first.
Baloney. It would certainly make her feel a great deal safer: she'd get to see your picture, after all, and she'd have all the time in the world to think of a way to shoot you down respond. Just say, "Hey, I found your Facebook! I see you at school sometimes. How are you?"
3. Talking to one of her friends. This just seems so after-school-special-ish...
Baloney! Just happen to mention it to some of your female acquaintances and ask their advice. "Boy, I really like Jenny. Isn't she great? I really want to ask her out, but I have no idea what I should do."

Even if you don't score with Jenny, you'll be talking with girls. That's never a bad thing. Who knows? Those girls might like you back, and you just don't know it yet.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Baloney! Just happen to mention it to some of your female acquaintances and ask their advice. "Boy, I really like Jenny. Isn't she great? I really want to ask her out, but I have no idea what I should do."

Even if you don't score with Jenny, you'll be talking with girls. That's never a bad thing. Who knows? Those girls might like you back, and you just don't know it yet.

This sounds like a good idea (if the other Dopers agree; I'm kind of getting conflicting advice here), and I guess I probably should do it. The only thing is that it kind of puts Mutual Acquaintance on the spot, but I guess that would be alright. I just have to not keep putting it off, like I've done before. ("I've got stuff to do this weekend; I should wait until next week to talk to her," "My hair looks bad today," and other really bad excuses that sound good when you're nervous.)

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Here:

On Facebook, you write "Hi, I think we used to wait in the same carpool area (last fall, until I got a driver's license), but I never got a chance to introduce myself. I'm Voxy. You're always on the far side of the gym from me in the morning, sitting with your German friends, who I don't really know that well. I'd like to get to talk with you sometime--I'm curious about Germany, how you like it here, what your life is like. When would be a good time us for to talk? Voxy"

Cut and paste. Substitute your own name for "Voxy" of course, and don't use any of that godawful pretentious Latin until you've impregnated her at least twice.

[olivesmarch4th]

Hmm. Do you kids still do Instant Messaging like we did back in the old days? I think you should start chatting her up online somehow. That's a good ice breaker. I actually had an outright aversion to my husband until he sent me a sweet little e-mail and I realized he was just a little socially awkward in person (either that or I was--doesn't matter now.) We fell in love over AIM. Getting started online will be a nice buffer for awkward moments, but allow you to start getting familiar with one another. This isn't loserish at all. What did shy people do before the internet? I don't know. But I've gotten to know a ton of acquaintances this way and they turned into strong real life friendships in many cases.

I'd definitely rack your brain for any relational connection you two have -- there has to be at least one person who's a mutual friend. Talk to that person. Be on the lookout for events revolving around that person (like parties) where you two might end up in the same place.

Or you could do what I did -- pine for years and watch her every move from afar, glean every bit of information you can about her from others without actually directly speaking to her, and live the rest of your life in regret. *

*Not really the whole rest of your life. But damn was he hot.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Substitute your own name for "Voxy

I'll have you know that I was once known as "Voxxy-Woxxy" on another message board I posted on, thank you very much. Actually, it was just one person that called me that, and it became a joke, but still. Also, that has way too many x's in it not to be a pornstar name.

olivesmarch4th, yeah, I'm going to try to avoid that. :p And that's precisely what I meant by messaging her over Facebook (it has an IM chat service).

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[olivesmarch4th]

I'll have you know that I was once known as "Voxxy-Woxxy" on another message board I posted on, thank you very much. Actually, it was just one person that called me that, and it became a joke, but still. Also, that has way too many x's in it not to be a pornstar name.

olivesmarch4th, yeah, I'm going to try to avoid that. :p And that's precisely what I meant by messaging her over Facebook (it has an IM chat service).

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

That settles it. You're Voxxxy from now on.

[lobotomyboy63]

lobotomy and naf are giving you excellent advice.

I can't speak for naf, but I haven't had a date in years...:confused::(:D

OK no, not really. But I'm here to tell you, Vox, that it doesn't really get a lot easier except maybe if you approach it like playing guitar: keep at it and you'll get calluses.

Vox, you have the power to cloud the mind. Maybe not hers, but at least, your own. Self-talk: "If I won't go after this one, and I'm REALLY intrigued by her, then I might as well become a monk. I know she's worth it! I owe this to myself. Oh, okay, sure, give it a week---let someone ELSE start dating her."

IOW, whatever you do, for God's sake, man up!

A little "Wonder Years" flashback, anyone? Vox, being across the pond I don't know if you ever saw this "Coming of Age" TV show but me lurvs it. Guilty pleasure I guess. Anyway they're a little younger than you but the awkwardness is universal and timeless IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3lcybeevw4&feature=related
Drama, with Vox's worst fears (?), begins around 7:00.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93NIdc6CQdc&feature=related
Kevin tries to call, imagining the worst. Broadcaster: We're here live at the Lisa Berlini house...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8__N5gLg1Tg&feature=related
And the conclusion....

[ShelliBean]

Hmm. Do you kids still do Instant Messaging like we did back in the old days?

I don't think you are allowed to use the phrases "old days" and "instant messaging" - it's not allowed. It makes the 30 somethings twitchy, the 40 somethings mad, the 50 somethings feel useless, the 60 somethings cry like a baby jesus and I think you just killed the oldest doper.

I like the FaceBook idea. Also, in my scenario, you are the one doing the inviting, so no chance of being left out.

[Illuminatiprimus]

That settles it. You're Voxxxy from now on.I was going to go with Voxilicious Adorus Maximum.

[Vox Imperatoris]

So which do you think I should do (or do first): talk to her over Facebook or talk to a mutual acquaintance?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Electric Warrior]

5. Just don't be creepy.
You can't teach not creepy.

Well, you can't teach someone not to have a creepy laugh or a strange look about him, but I think some creepy things can be avoided.

1) Don't tell someone about your deepest innermost thoughts in your first few conversations.
2) Don't start talking about how much you are jealous of people who are in relationships and wish you had someone to love.
3) Don't stalk people.
4) Don't murder anyone. You know, that sort of thing.

[Cisco]

You realize by committing to this geek thing you're in for a lifetime of cluelessness and akward moments with females, right?

[Vox Imperatoris]

You realize by committing to this geek thing you're in for a lifetime of cluelessness and akward moments with females, right?

:confused:

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Sunspace]

There's good advice in this thread. I wish I'd read it when I was in high school, but that was way back in the Iron Age when we were amazed by computers small enough that they could be carried by one person.

One thing I learned much later is that it can be useful to disconnect from the outcome of your actions. Take your actions, but don't get emotionally wound up in the results. That way, you won't stress about it and you'll be able to relax and flow in the moment. I know, I know, it's like trying to not think of something.

And what olivesmarch4th said is important--I remember reading the thread where she described the strange and vaguely-creepy actions of this one guy, and then I was shocked when she went on to say that after she educated him on why they were a bad idea, and he stopped, he turned out to be a good guy and became her husband. She has wisdom.I don't think you are allowed to use the phrases "old days" and "instant messaging" - it's not allowed. It makes the 30 somethings twitchy, the 40 somethings mad, the 50 somethings feel useless, the 60 somethings cry like a baby jesus and I think you just killed the oldest doper.Hrrmph. In my day, we had to make the effort to be ignored in person! None of this stuff about logging in and checking your ignore lists online. And I'll have you know I learned my second language by instant messaging, all of nine years ago. You kids and your telepathic modems. Now get off my lawn. :)

-Sunspace, 45.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Also, if I do message her on Facebook, do you think it would be a good idea to be honest and admit I have a crush on her, or should I just keep that to myself? I'm thinking something more like "This is kind of embarrassing to admit, but I have a huge crush on you" than "I profess my undying love and will never let anyone else take you away" ;), but do you think the former would still be too forward?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Kyla]

Also, if I do message her on Facebook, do you think it would be a good idea to be honest and admit I have a crush on her, or should I just keep that to myself? I'm thinking something more like "This is kind of embarrassing to admit, but I have a huge crush on you" than "I profess my undying love and will never let anyone else take you away" ;), but do you think the former would still be too forward?


Yes! She doesn't know you yet! THAT would be creepy.

[even sven]

Just go talk to her, for fuck's sake.

Walk up to her and say "So, I hear your from Germany." Ask questions and really listen to what she has to say.

If it was feeling good, I'd ask her on a friendly non-threatening date. Maybe something like "A few friends of mine are going out to see Rambo this weekend, did you want to come?"

People like meeting other people. She's not going to be pissed off or creeped out by one conversation. If it doesn't work, oh well, right?

[Vox Imperatoris]

Yes! She doesn't know you yet! THAT would be creepy.

That's what I thought.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

ETA: even sven, the problem is finding a time to "just go talk to her".

[ShelliBean]

Also, if I do message her on Facebook, do you think it would be a good idea to be honest and admit I have a crush on her, or should I just keep that to myself? I'm thinking something more like "This is kind of embarrassing to admit, but I have a huge crush on you" than "I profess my undying love and will never let anyone else take you away" ;), but do you think the former would still be too forward?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

You must be the Fonz. Be cool. It's much cuter to admit later that 'hey when I facebooked you did you know I had a huge crush on you?'

I do have to say - if just saying hi to this girl is such a logistical nightmare when are you going to have any sort of relationship with her? If you are sticking to strictly after school then use that time to chat her up initially. And you did ask about the FB thing - I would. It's really non-threatening to just friend someone and it leaves things in the "we're just students in the same school" to save you face if she whips out the boyfriend from Germany thing, or some other nightmare.

[kittenblue]

Why can't you just hang out around that carpool waiting area like you used to? Then when she gets picked up, go get in your car and leave. She doesn't have to know your car is really working that day....

[Vox Imperatoris]

Why can't you just hang out around that carpool waiting area like you used to? Then when she gets picked up, go get in your car and leave. She doesn't have to know your car is really working that day....

Doesn't that seem kind of...stalker-ish...to you? Besides, I might run into other people who would ask me what I'm doing out there, and my school is kind of small, so I think most people who'd be my friend (and therefore asking that) would know what my car looks like. And even if no one noticed, I just get a very creepy "vibe" from that.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[lobotomyboy63]

Just go talk to her, for fuck's sake.

Walk up to her and say "So, I hear your from Germany." Ask questions and really listen to what she has to say.

If it was feeling good, I'd ask her on a friendly non-threatening date. Maybe something like "A few friends of mine are going out to see Rambo this weekend, did you want to come?"

People like meeting other people. She's not going to be pissed off or creeped out by one conversation. If it doesn't work, oh well, right?

1) Make sure you've thought of some non-yes/no questions. Try to connect to things you know and like. "Stuttgart? Porsche's based there, right?" If you ever traveled there or had a friend/relative who did, you might mention that. Do any of your family trace back to Germany? Be complimentary of the place. Even, "I've heard its really great during Oktoberfest" may work.

Reason: if you're lucky, she'll pair the good feeling of praise with being with you. If you know a little German, this might be a time to try it out.

IMO the point is not to win her heart at this point---it's to pique her curiosity and develop a good, friendly vibe.

2) I don't know if it's too early to try meeting up with her, though I like the "group date" idea a lot. Safety in numbers, you know.

You must be the Fonz. Be cool. It's much cuter to admit later that 'hey when I facebooked you did you know I had a huge crush on you?'

I do have to say - if just saying hi to this girl is such a logistical nightmare when are you going to have any sort of relationship with her? If you are sticking to strictly after school then use that time to chat her up initially. And you did ask about the FB thing - I would. It's really non-threatening to just friend someone and it leaves things in the "we're just students in the same school" to save you face if she whips out the boyfriend from Germany thing, or some other nightmare.

1) I agree very much with the first part, but don't be *too* aloof.

I don't know who in this thread may have been party to the "Mystery Technique" thread that generated so much anger, but one thing I remember from that TV show is that you don't approach head on. Face-to-face is too intimidating for some women. Standing side by side may be less threatening to you both. But do speak up and be confident.

2) Second part: well, if he can break the ice and she's motivated/interested, that will probably solve the logistical issues.

Doesn't that seem kind of...stalker-ish...to you? Besides, I might run into other people who would ask me what I'm doing out there, and my school is kind of small, so I think most people who'd be my friend (and therefore asking that) would know what my car looks like. And even if no one noticed, I just get a very creepy "vibe" from that.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

I think a certain amount of feeling like a stalker is inevitable, given these parameters. You've seen her but she doesn't know you. If there were an easy, suave, organic method of getting her attention, you'd have thought of it by now.

Look, you're going to feel like everybody knows exactly what you're thinking and doing. Probably far from true but even if it were, so what? Do you think there's going to be some public humiliation if it doesn't go well? All over this world, young men are noticing young women and trying to figure out how to break the ice. Anything worthwhile is going to carry a risk of failure.

You have to manufacture an opportunity. If she says no or gives you the brush off, you're not going to push yourself on her, and that separates you from a true stalker. What I'm reading between the lines (perhaps incorrectly) is that you're developing feelings about her.

I once got a call from a woman who asked me on a date---a real rarity, that. She was really subtle and oblique about it. I finally said, "Um, are you...asking me out?" She hesitated. "Um, yeah." So we went out.

At the time I had been in a church choir with her sister and BiL. It turned out that this woman was watching me for months, just trying to get the courage to ask me out. The date on Sunday went okay and I was processing it, trying to figure out what I thought. She called Sunday night to chat. And Monday night. And Tuesday night. And Wednesday night. And....

Point being, she had already developed a lot of feelings for me, but I was just getting in the room with the idea of dating her. She had some good qualities but I felt pressured. She stopped calling. Had she let it rest a couple days, I probably would have called and we would have dated again. But I knew she was off to the races and I was still at the starting gate. Any encouragement from me was going to put her in overdrive.

I think there needs to be a magic tipping point, maybe like how a pressure cooker reaches a critical point where it releases steam so it won't blow up. If this is meant to be, you need to start on the same page or at least, a similar one. If it isn't meant to be, you need to put yourself out of your own misery. You need to figure out where that point---I'm going to take action before this builds further---is for you, IMO.

And, young friend, brace yourself. Maybe when you get to talk to her, she'll be the opposite of what you want. Maybe one of you is an atheist...the other is a regular churchgoer. You're a doper...maybe she's an airhead. Maybe she's all about money and you could care less about it.

"Young men love with their eyes"---Shakespeare, right? Wouldn't it suck to think you've agonized over her, only to find out that the appearance didn't match the reality by a longshot? And those other young women you passed over because you thought they couldn't hold a candle to her?

But maybe she is all that you thought. Then obviously you need to go for it. The worst that will happen is that you'll know you at least tried.

[Vox Imperatoris]

2) I don't know if it's too early to try meeting up with her, though I like the "group date" idea a lot. Safety in numbers, you know.

I don't know about that. I don't really know who else I would ask as part of the group, and I just don't think I would be comfortable in that situation. I think it would be more awkward, for me at least, that one-on-one. Of course, if she proposed bringing one of her friends, that would be fine. As for what kind of date, I'm thinking probably a movie. I've heard that Slumdog Millionaire is supposed to be good.

And as for things we might have in common, one of my favorite singers is German (http://www.last.fm/music/Bl%C3%BCmchen).

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Attack from the 3rd dimension]

Not to be simplistic, Voxxxy, but you could just be in the same place as she is and say "Hi".

If you prefer, you can say "How you doin' ", hopefully not in a Joey-from-friends-voice. I like "How you doin' ", because she can say 'fine', and nothing else has to happen, or she can say "very well, it's looking like a lovely day since my cat coughed up the eraser and my father's acquittal came through", pretty much starting a conversation. If she says 'fine' just repeat the plan until she's used to saying hello to you, and then move on to an actual conversation.

Don't say 'Valete'.

Stop thinking.

[The Second Stone]

Where does she eat lunch? Find out where and with whom and then approach. Approach confidently from a direction where you can be seen. Make sure your fly is zipped up and that your hair has already been combed. Say: "Hi Sally, may I join you for lunch?" If she says no, then say "maybe another time then" and retreat and reapply for coaching here. If she says "yes" then sit down. If she says "why, am I falling apart?" Then say, "why yes, I'm a Groucho Marxist too!" Make small talk. Weather, sports, fashion, cars. Listen mostly.

If this goes well, then ask her "so, how many children shall we have?" If she calls the cops, you are a goner, but if she says "two or three", you are off to a roaring start.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Where does she eat lunch? Find out where and with whom and then approach. Approach confidently from a direction where you can be seen. Make sure your fly is zipped up and that your hair has already been combed. Say: "Hi Sally, may I join you for lunch?" If she says no, then say "maybe another time then" and retreat and reapply for coaching here. If she says "yes" then sit down. If she says "why, am I falling apart?" Then say, "why yes, I'm a Groucho Marxist too!" Make small talk. Weather, sports, fashion, cars. Listen mostly.

If this goes well, then ask her "so, how many children shall we have?" If she calls the cops, you are a goner, but if she says "two or three", you are off to a roaring start.

I already pointed out that we don't have lunch at the same time.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[MeDrewNotYou]

Where does she eat lunch? Find out where and with whom and then approach. Approach confidently from a direction where you can be seen. Make sure your fly is zipped up and that your hair has already been combed. Say: "Hi Sally, may I join you for lunch?" If she says no, then say "maybe another time then" and retreat and reapply for coaching here. If she says "yes" then sit down. If she says "why, am I falling apart?" Then say, "why yes, I'm a Groucho Marxist too!" Make small talk. Weather, sports, fashion, cars. Listen mostly.

If this goes well, then ask her "so, how many children shall we have?" If she calls the cops, you are a goner, but if she says "two or three", you are off to a roaring start. (bolding mine)

I say this in all seriousness, Groucho Marx has gotten me more dates (and kisses! (http://www.qwantz.com/archive/001149.html)) than a funny dead guy has any right to.

As for advice, I'm a proponent of the school of thought of, "Do boldly what you do at all." Faint heart ne'er won fair lady and all that. Walk up, make her laugh, make an impression, then say you're busy and you'll see her soon. Next day, work your charm.

[MeDrewNotYou]

I suppose I should give my thinking behind all that.

First, you need an excuse to talk to her. This is as simple as a, "Hey, I saw you in morning assembly and thought I knew you from X." Throw in whatever extracurriculars are applicable. (Something to that effect.) This way, you're not coming out of the blue.
Make a little small talk and insert your humorous story/anecdote/whatever to make your impression. (I like a joke, better to be thought of as funny than any other notable thing at this point.) Then the ole' "Shoot, look at the time!" move and you'll talk to her later. (Bring a watch/cell phone!)

Now she's knows who you are and hopefully finds you intriguing. But, since your first meeting was cut short, she's left a little curious and wanting more.
Next day, go talk to her and just be yourself, at the end, ask for her info. (Here, I think asking to friend her on Facebook would be an excellent idea, especially if you aren't quite ready to ask for her number.) From there, talk a little bit (preferably in person, but on-line is okay too), and ask her what she's doing Friday night. Hopefully she'll answer "Dinner with you!" :cool:

Now, even if she turns you down (NOT a given!!!), you've gotten some practice and shown a little boldness that others might notice. Now you've piqued their interest.


As for logistics... That one's up to you. After school could be a good bet, but you can certainly find at least a minute or two somewhere in the day.

[The Second Stone]

I already pointed out that we don't have lunch at the same time.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

Look, lunch is when cute chick has lunch and not at any other time. Skip class and meet her at lunch. Say: "I had an important (name of class here) lecture today, but meeting you and making my true feelings known is far more important to the future of our planet. Will you keep hope alive?" Or some such. Once a woman knows that she is more important to you than practical things, she can't resist trying to turn you into a bad boy. Skipping class will also get you bad boy cred. Women luuuuurve bad boys.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Look, lunch is when cute chick has lunch and not at any other time. Skip class and meet her at lunch. Say: "I had an important (name of class here) lecture today, but meeting you and making my true feelings known is far more important to the future of our planet. Will you keep hope alive?" Or some such. Once a woman knows that she is more important to you than practical things, she can't resist trying to turn you into a bad boy. Skipping class will also get you bad boy cred. Women luuuuurve bad boys.

I'm not going to skip class. :rolleyes: And that sounds like terrible advice.

MeDrewNotYou, I don't have any extracurriculars with her. And I'm already friends with her on Facebook, so all I'd have to do is send a message.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[FriarTed]

Well, you can't teach someone not to have a creepy laugh or a strange look about him, but I think some creepy things can be avoided.

1) Don't tell someone about your deepest innermost thoughts in your first few conversations.
2) Don't start talking about how much you are jealous of people who are in relationships and wish you had someone to love.
3) Don't stalk people.
4) Don't murder anyone. You know, that sort of thing.

Also, don't follow her around whistling "In the Hall of the Mountain King" or stand outside her house at night crooning "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms".

Neither works, and I have the restraining orders to prove it.

Bonus points to you if you get BOTH movie references.

[FriarTed]

And I'm already friends with her on Facebook, so all I'd have to do is send a message.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

As a mail-order man of the cloth and Internet friar, I can say this without fear I'm taking the Lord's name in vain- SO SEND HER A GODDAM MESSAGE ALREADY!

[The Batman]

I'm not going to skip class. And that sounds like terrible advice.

And how would you know? ;)


Seriously, though, if you aren't lucky enough to run into her during the day then you need to start making your own luck. Either try to talk to her (as in walk towards her and strike up a conversation) before or after school or skip a class or study group and talk to her then.

And talk to her in person, none of this facebook crap. If you use facebook for this you run a higher chance of entering the friendzone than a date. Also, you have to learn to talk to women in person too and the sooner the better.

[Vox Imperatoris]

And talk to her in person, none of this facebook crap.

As a mail-order man of the cloth and Internet friar, I can say this without fear I'm taking the Lord's name in vain- SO SEND HER A GODDAM MESSAGE ALREADY!

Which one? Should I listen to the voice of God or the voice of something that sounds suspiciously like a brand of cigarettes? :D

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[The Batman]

Just remember that cigarettes are cool.

[Hippy Hollow]

Here's a question that was asked upthread: if your lives are so distant now, how's it going to work if you date?

You've listed a million reasons you can't see her. Dude, you're in HS. Get a note from a teacher and swing by to say hi when she's at lunch. (I was an honors student in HS, you won't wreck your GPA by taking a bathroom/nurse break for a few minutes.)

Tons of good advice here. Why don't you want to take it? Being scared is understandable, but the worst case scenario is that she'll like you as a friend and nothing else. If she acts like an ass, it's either because she's a jerk, you have nothing in common, or you're really weird. So drop the nightmare scenarios, and take the advice of many of the people in this thread that have chimed in.

When I was in HS, you talked to girls, left 'em notes, or called 'em. So now you have e-mail and Facebook. What's wrong with a low-key message on either of those, casually inviting her to a snack after school with some friends, and see where it goes from there?

And seriously, you need to think this thing through before you go any further. If you can't connect with her at school, how's your dating life going to work? It's not stalkerish to ask one of her friends if she's dating anyone, or what she does after school.

[Mudshark]

I don't have any extracurriculars with her. And I'm already friends with her on Facebook, so all I'd have to do is send a message.



Would it be hard to get one? If not, go for it.

If you are friends on Facebook, you should already have plenty of things to work with. Does she work? Is her job listed? You could just drop in one day at work. I know there are bands, movies and other activites listed Facebook, so just use that as a basis for some kind of conversation if you get nervous and can't think of anything to say.

If you are worried about seeming kind of stalkerish at the carpool area, if anyone asks, say your car won't start and you are waiting for a ride. You can always go back to your car "to see if it will start this time" if anyone gets all up in your business. And, it's such a lame excuse, no one will question it.


Oh, and avoid phrases like "all up in your business" at all costs.

[Loach]

If you don't stop using that sig we are going to track her down and tell her what you are really like.

A lot of us with a lot more age than you will tell you that most of our regrets are from not doing something rather than something that went wrong. Its simple. Start talking to her. Doesn't matter where or how. The Facebook thing seems like a start. The worst that can happen is you are rejected. It seems bad now but it really isn't. Just move on to the next one. I wish I had done that more. I was never rejected but it probably eliminated a lot of potential good times too. Stop thinking about it and do it.

To inject a little reality into it, if you are good looking and she is attracted to you, you are less likely to come off as creepy. If you are the type that she is not instantly attracted to all is not lost. You may be able to get to where you want but you will have to be friends first. A lot of women are not fixated on looks but in high school it is a little different.

[PuddingCat]

Dude - this is not going well. All I'm seeing are excuses to justify doing nothing! You know you want to speak to this girl, and you know you're going to be so hacked off if you don't so, for the love of all that is holy, please just do something! I'm not going to offer you any specific advice, 'cos you've received a lot of good ideas already and I keep my Hot Stuff(tm) for myself.

How about this. It's almost midday Sunday GMT here. Why not strike a deal that you'll take some positive action in the next 24 hours. Just reply in the affirmative and all the worry is off your shoulders. You know you will do something, so the stress of "should I?/shouldn't I?" is gone.

Next, you need to draw up the (feasible) suggestions so far, numbered from one to X. Then roll a dice or something. The schedule of when you carry out the suggestion will pretty much be defined by itself. If it's an online type thing, anytime is good - as long as it's within 24 hours. If it's a face to face, just make sure it happens tomorrow.

Your inexperience here meant that whatever 'thought through' solution you chose would be pretty much random, so why not go real random?

Finally, you have to take a step backwards and outwards on this. Forget it's you receiving the advice, imagine it's one of your mates. This is a perfect example of overthinking. What would you say to him to get his arse in gear?

trm

[NineToTheSky]

This is every young man's dilemma. You're not the first and you won't be the last. All shy people go through your dilemma, and really there is only solution: the one that is so difficult for you. You either pluck up courage and do something, or you don't. As you have been advised there are many possible routes, but it all comes down to that first deep breath - and then doing it!

You may feel uncertain about this situation, but one thing I'd like to draw to your attention is that you've obviously got balls. You have been pitted mercilessly about your 'valete', and a lesser man would have caved in, but you stood your ground. You come across as a strong, reasonable character. You can handle on-line interactions, so let Facebook be your friend. I'd ask her if she'd like to meet up sometime, without being very specific. You're not formally asking her for a date, so there's no obvious preconceptions. If she says 'yes', take it from there. If she is negative about it: well, you tried.

Contrary to a lot of posts, personally I wouldn't pre-prepare anything too much. You say she is a friend on Facebook, so you know that there is at least a small degree of compatability. When you meet, you'll soon find out if there is a big enough connection to take it further. The only advice I'd give when you meet her (because you will - you will!) is to ask her about herself. Don't rabbit on endlessly about yourself unless she asks you; but I'm sure you know this.

Good luck. And let us know how it goes.

ETA: While composing, trmatthe posted very much the same as me. He speaks the truth. Go for it!

[Fake Tales of San Francisco]

All I can really say is that if you don't do anything now, overcome your fear and excuses for not talking to girls in real life, you'll end up like me.

Living in Australia with a gorgeous girl you met on the internet.

Well...It's not that bad I suppose.

Only other thing I can say is that if you don't come into contact in any realistic kind of way, whatever you do it's going to be kinda creepy. There are things suggested that you can to make it less so, but there's still going to be a moment of awkwardness that you just simply have to overcome.

Well, not 'have to', but anyway....

[lobotomyboy63]

I don't know about that. I don't really know who else I would ask as part of the group, and I just don't think I would be comfortable in that situation.

Point taken, but be aware that her comfort level is the issue.

I think it would be more awkward, for me at least, that one-on-one. Of course, if she proposed bringing one of her friends, that would be fine. As for what kind of date, I'm thinking probably a movie. I've heard that Slumdog Millionaire is supposed to be good.

Hmm, a "date" already. I don't think you need to go there just yet, but I'm a Yank. What's typical in your neck of the woods?

A film is probably a bad choice, IMO. Looking at the screen=not focusing on each other. I don't mean that it has to be 100% mutual scrutiny, but a movie date gives less time to converse. Maybe you're a movie-phile and the convo after would tell you something. But how about grabbing something to eat, maybe at a little place you know?

And as for things we might have in common, one of my favorite singers is German (http://www.last.fm/music/Bl%C3%BCmchen).

There you go. At some point in the conversation, you bring up this singer. Cut loose descriptively. What's your favorite song by her? Why do you like her? How did you find out about her? Any chance she'll be performing in your area. Show her that it isn't just a line and she'll get to know you a bit..

"I like Blümchen---did I pronounce that right?" (Help ensues) "Do you have any recommendations of singers with similar stuff for me? Well, who's your favorite?"

Engage. Don't think you have to carry the convo, either. If you're lucky, she'll have plenty of opinions. Don't worry about her getting off-track. If this singer leads to a discussion about the town she grew up in, great. The point, from your perspective, is to learn what you can about her and give her some insight into who you are.

ETA: That Blümchen is a babe!

[Shodan]

Don't send her a package containing your left ear. That's for later.

Do NOT Facebook her. Talk to her in person.

There is time for you to contact her. You can make the time. Before class is good, because it will leave little time for the conversation to go wrong.

You: "Hi, <Cute Girl>. Do you have a second?" (smile)

CG then either giggles, runs away screaming pulls out can of Mace says, "Sure".You: "I have tickets to the semi-finals of the World Knitting Championship Friday. Would you like to come?"

CG will then respond using one or more of the following: "Not in a million years, loser." Should she so respond, smile graciously and go away, You may or may not choose to spread rumors that she was born a man. "Sorry, I'm busy." Here, you have options. If she gives a specific reason ("I always spend Fridays volunteering at the Richard Gere Gerbil Rescue Center"), then you respond "OK, how about a week from Saturday? We can go put flowers on Madonna's grave." (If she points out that Madonna is alive, smile mysteriously and tell her to ask you again on Tuesday. This will make sure that she remembers your name.)

If she does not give a reason, back off gracefully, and ask her again about a week later. If she says, "I'm seeing someone". You say "Does he know how lucky he is? When he forgets, I got dibs'. Then smile warmly, say good-bye, and again, ask her again, only two weeks later. Or - "Sure".
Dating is a game of playing the odds, and developing a thick skin for rejection. Hit on everything even remotely attractive. A certain percentage of the time, you hit the jackpot.

You are over-thinking this. Just ask her.

Regards,
Shodan

[even sven]

Dude, walk up an talk to her. None of this pussy Facebook stuff. Cute girls get millions of guys who walk right up and talk to them. They are used to it. Sometimes they say "yes" to them. You aren't doing anything creepy or unusual. Interested guys go talk to cute girls. Thats what they are expecting and thats what all those guys who have hot girlfriends have learned to do.

You've got a conversation starter and it's not too hard to plan a way to escalate things (though I think a very casual date- perhaps something as part of a group- is best.)

Anyway, always look at the best case/worst case scenarios.

Option 1 You talk to her. Worst case: she doesn't go out with you. Best case: she goes out with you.
Option 2 You don't talk to her. Worst case: she doesn't go out with you. Best case: she doesn't go out with you.

I think the winner is clear.

[trupa]

Dammit, where were all you guys when I was 16. Geez, advice like this could have changed my whole life!

Voxxxy, pay attention, people are speaking truth and wisdom to you here!

If you're friends with her on facebook, then you have a veritable arsenal of knowledge with which to make small talk. Remember to let her do most of the talking. Everything she says will be interesting, so act appropriately. Ask her some questions. Express interest in things she's interested in. Learn about them in advance if you must. Google is your freind in this regard.

People looove other people being interested in what they say. Use this to your advantage.

One last thing:

The pain of rejection lasts days or weeks.

The pain of not knowing how things might have turned out if you had acted is a festering sore that never really heals. Just gets less acute over time, as you learn to get used to it. Ask me ho I know this.

Now you choose.

[Jettboy]

Take up smoking. Buy a leather jacket. Steal a car (a coool car, not your dad's Taurus). Go to her house, ask if she'd like to join you to watch the sunrise...in Veracruz. On the way to Mexico, rob a liquor store.

That'll get her attention.

[msmith537]

Do kids still have their friends pass notes for them in study hall?


Girls seem to like unicorns and babies. Maybe you can have one of your buddies wear a unicorn outfit and you can ride him up to her while dressed like a giant baby. That shouldn't e creepy.

[HolyFreakingMoly]

I like the invasion of Poland idea the best but in lieu of that, how about a note? Maybe I'm reaching way too far back to my own school days but could you get a note to her? Nothing too incriminating if she decided to show it around just something like, "Hey Gerda, I never get a chance to talk to you but I'd like to... Wanna go out after school one day for a (whatever kids do after school these days)? Vox".

[Sunspace]

There you go. At some point in the conversation, you bring up this singer. Cut loose descriptively. What's your favorite song by her? Why do you like her? How did you find out about her? Any chance she'll be performing in your area. Show her that it isn't just a line and she'll get to know you a bit..

"I like Blümchen---did I pronounce that right?" (Help ensues) "Do you have any recommendations of singers with similar stuff for me? Well, who's your favorite?I'll add that you actually have to honestly like the singer/movie/book/whatever in common. Not that I think you're faking the like for the singer, Vox... but I can tall you what happens if you do fake it.

When I was in high school, there was this girl. Japanese-Canadian. Gorgeous. Smart. She was a cheerleader and got straight-A's in physics and math, if you get my drift. How could I get the attention of this creature? Simple. Learn Japanese! So I did things like making art projects covered in Japanese writing (that project got hung in the school library). Taking karate. Learning about Japan and its history.

But I never quite got up the nerve to ask her out an any sort of sane and sensible way. So all the interest was in vain.

Actually, that's not quite true; one time in grade 13, I think, I organized a bit of a party at my place, and invited her and a bunch of other people. All the rest cancelled. So, unable to imagine that she would actually want to be there by herself, I cancelled the party. :smack: I remember being so roiled up in confusion and frustration that I ran out the back door of the house screaming and around the block just from sheer pent-up craziness.

I now wonder whether I in fact had any sort of chance. My own internal emotional storms were so intense that I literally couldn't get outside the emotions enough to actually perceive the other person as themselves and see what they were actually doing and how they were reacting to things. I didn't learn to do that until much later.

I ended up with a life-long interest in Japan, but no dates until much later.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Hmm, a "date" already. I don't think you need to go there just yet, but I'm a Yank. What's typical in your neck of the woods?

Well, for something eventually.

A film is probably a bad choice, IMO. Looking at the screen=not focusing on each other. I don't mean that it has to be 100% mutual scrutiny, but a movie date gives less time to converse. Maybe you're a movie-phile and the convo after would tell you something. But how about grabbing something to eat, maybe at a little place you know?

What exactly do you mean by "grabbing a bite to eat"? An actual dinner date sounds way too formal, and there aren't really any non-sit-down places around that you would want to take someone to, unless Burger King is your idea of a charming setting.

I like the invasion of Poland idea the best but in lieu of that, how about a note? Maybe I'm reaching way too far back to my own school days but could you get a note to her? Nothing too incriminating if she decided to show it around just something like, "Hey Gerda, I never get a chance to talk to you but I'd like to... Wanna go out after school one day for a (whatever kids do after school these days)? Vox".

I think Facebook would be a better idea than a note.

And seriously, you need to think this thing through before you go any further. If you can't connect with her at school, how's your dating life going to work? It's not stalkerish to ask one of her friends if she's dating anyone, or what she does after school.

I'm curious as to why you think this would be big problem. I'd say many, maybe even most, of the people at my school who are dating are dating someone from another school.

And for all the people suggesting "informal setting" and/or "group event", what kinds of things, specifically, would you suggest? I can't really think of anything. I don't really know of any good place to "get a snack" with friends or who I would ask. I realize that I'm kind of "asking how to hang out", but what can you do?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Freudian Slit]

Look, lunch is when cute chick has lunch and not at any other time. Skip class and meet her at lunch. Say: "I had an important (name of class here) lecture today, but meeting you and making my true feelings known is far more important to the future of our planet. Will you keep hope alive?" Or some such. Once a woman knows that she is more important to you than practical things, she can't resist trying to turn you into a bad boy. Skipping class will also get you bad boy cred. Women luuuuurve bad boys.

You creepy, weird, stalkerish...sweet boy! You did all this for ME?! *smooch*

[ShelliBean]

So the main questions seem to be:

Facebook: yes or no?

Socializing: group or twosome?

Where to go: movie, dinner for two, casual coffee/snack

I am voting for (1) first contact by Facebook, (2) group outing to (3) movies and casual dinner - no where more expensive than Johnny Rockets or maybe a mexican place.

I really have to disagree with lobotomyboy about the movie. I have always thought a date was pretty much standard to be dinner and a movie for many people. No, you aren't conversing during the screen time, but it does give you something to talk about afterward and you start to figure out each other's tastes and general attitude.

[Captain Carrot]

What exactly do you mean by "grabbing a bite to eat"? An actual dinner date sounds way too formal, and there aren't really any non-sit-down places around that you would want to take someone to, unless Burger King is your idea of a charming setting.You could try something like Quizno's. Decent, substantive food, and it gives you a chance to talk. Charm is what you make. (Disclaimer: I haven't had a date in seven years, partially because I'm a complete coward when it comes to asking girls out. [And I've had terrible luck with the girls I like not liking me.])

[Stranger On A Train]

Sorry for being so blunt, but you have to learn how to date eventually. You might as well get good at it in High School...But the biggest thing is to get out of your head, you are making this harder than it has to be.Oy. Or, as the eponymous character in Roger Dodger says in the epilogue, "There's nothing at stake. If there was a chance of you actually getting laid, then you've have a reason to be nervous...You guys can treat this like it's a warmup."

Just don't be creepy.

You can't teach not creepy.I'm still hoping you can learn it, though.

Girls seem to like unicorns and babies. Maybe you can have one of your buddies wear a unicorn outfit and you can ride him up to her while dressed like a giant baby. That shouldn't e creepy.Excellent suggestion!

Stranger

[An Gadaí]

If she likes you nothing you do will seem creepy, if she doesn't like you everything you do will seem creepy.

[lobotomyboy63]

I'll add that you actually have to honestly like the singer/movie/book/whatever in common. Not that I think you're faking the like for the singer, Vox... but I can tall you what happens if you do fake it.

Right, but his interest is legit. When talking about it, you might say, "There are a couple of lines in this song that I don't understand," and ask for help.


What exactly do you mean by "grabbing a bite to eat"? An actual dinner date sounds way too formal, and there aren't really any non-sit-down places around that you would want to take someone to, unless Burger King is your idea of a charming setting.


Lemme back up.

I grew up in a small town that was 99% caucasian. The other 1% was Hispanic. They pretty much kept to themselves and there was a fair amount of (undeserved, I think) prejudice toward them. Maybe I'm reading too much into the "she sticks with the other Germans" aspect, but groups like that tend to segregate themselves. They may not know what's available like you do.

So I'm not even suggesting dinner, necessarily. Do you know where the best gelatto is nearby, or the best fish and chips, or the place that really knows how to make a pizza? You're young...keep it young. But I perceive this as a chance for you to score points by being her "tour guide."

And for all the people suggesting "informal setting" and/or "group event", what kinds of things, specifically, would you suggest? I can't really think of anything. I don't really know of any good place to "get a snack" with friends or who I would ask. I realize that I'm kind of "asking how to hang out", but what can you do?


I've heard that European teens have far less free time and there are fewer outlets for them than we'd have in the states. If you were here, I'd say: go bowling, go mini golf, go to a pinball or video arcade, maybe shoot pool (but not in a seedy bar...you need a clean, safe place). Do you not have a local hangout for teens (honest question)? Here again, "tour guide" thing.

If the singer thing goes over, maybe you can show her the best place to buy CDs locally and/or places that sell tee shirts and such.

So the main questions seem to be:

Facebook: yes or no?

Socializing: group or twosome?

Where to go: movie, dinner for two, casual coffee/snack

I am voting for (1) first contact by Facebook, (2) group outing to (3) movies and casual dinner - no where more expensive than Johnny Rockets or maybe a mexican place.

I really have to disagree with lobotomyboy about the movie. I have always thought a date was pretty much standard to be dinner and a movie for many people. No, you aren't conversing during the screen time, but it does give you something to talk about afterward and you start to figure out each other's tastes and general attitude.

I vote 1) no, man up and face-to-face, but easy, 2) group outing but I realize that may be difficult, 3) movie is ok but only ok...I'd want something more interactive and fun.

ShelliBean, not that it pertains to the OP, but I've learned to avoid dinner and a movie because it's formula. Women take it as, "Wow, you didn't spend any creativity planning this, did you?"

At his age, that may not apply. And I suppose there's a certain comfort for the young lady, i.e. she has some idea what to expect.

An Gadaí said:

If she likes you nothing you do will seem creepy, if she doesn't like you everything you do will seem creepy.

I'd say:
If she likes you nothing you do will seem creepy to her; if she doesn't like you everything you do will seem creepy to you, but not necessarily to her.

[ShelliBean]

lobotomyboy
Then you are probably a fun date. But I am thinking he has the advantage of youth where nothing is routine yet so he can stick to something safe and easy. No offense to Voxxy, but he really doesn't seem to have any experience in this at all, and you don't go trying the fancy dives your first time in the pool. Plus I'd be willing to bet he's going to be nervous as shit and a movie would be a welcome distraction.

[An Gadaí]

An Gadaí said:

If she likes you nothing you do will seem creepy, if she doesn't like you everything you do will seem creepy.

I'd say:
If she likes you nothing you do will seem creepy to her; if she doesn't like you everything you do will seem creepy to you, but not necessarily to her.

I prefer my version. I know plenty of women who go on about this creepy guy who "like tried to talk to me and stuff" or buy them a drink, or gave them a compliment wherein creepy just means they don't like them so don't want their attention.

[Sunspace]

Just remember that cigarettes are cool.No. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=504481) No, (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=504428) they're not. (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=502485)

[lobotomyboy63]

First of all, Vox, why did I think you were in London? :smack: Guess I'm confusing you with another poster. OK, substitute ice cream for gelatto (unless you can get gelatto, mmboy!), full speed ahead on the putt putt etc. and instead of fish and chips...I don't know, what good takeout can you get around there?

lobotomyboy
Then you are probably a fun date. But I am thinking he has the advantage of youth where nothing is routine yet so he can stick to something safe and easy. No offense to Voxxy, but he really doesn't seem to have any experience in this at all, and you don't go trying the fancy dives your first time in the pool. Plus I'd be willing to bet he's going to be nervous as shit and a movie would be a welcome distraction.

Are you busy Saturday night, Shelli? :p

A few things stick out about me giving Vox advice...1) I'm 25+ years older than him, and 2) I'm from the Midwest; he isn't. What was cool in my day may not be cool now; what was cool where I grew up may not be where he is. And then of course, 3) our yardstick of success is German, so there's even more potential difference of what's cool there.

FTR, I've taken my last two "big first dates" to the drive-in movie. Went bowling and shot pool with one, played putt putt and air hockey with the other. It may be a cry for help, I dinno. :smack:

One assumption that I might question (literally---I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not sure) is the duration of the proposed date. She's more likely to agree to a half hour date for a coke than a dinner/movie scenario that may take up 4 hours. And it's less nervousness for the OP as well. He might like to start slow till he gets his confidence.

I might suggest, dopers, that we give lots of ideas and let him mull them. I would also suggest we try to give low- or no-cost ideas because as a young man, he may not have lots of money to burn.

1) Maybe a picnic in the park. Pack some food, take a ball to kick around (got a guitar?).

2) Check out museums to see if interesting events are upcoming.

3) Window shopping, have a snack.

4) Tell us about YOU, OP. Ideally a date would be something you both enjoy, so think of all the things you enjoy and ask yourself if she might enjoy them as well. If a friend came in from out of town, where would you take them to show them a good time?

I prefer my version. I know plenty of women who go on about this creepy guy who "like tried to talk to me and stuff" or buy them a drink, or gave them a compliment wherein creepy just means they don't like them so don't want their attention.

I know what you mean. OTOH as you imply, it's more about them than the guy. I don't think Vox is going to push that envelope, so if she's skeeved, that's on her and not him. And if that happens to Vox, he needs to avoid attributing the blame to himself.

[ShelliBean]

Ohhh I love the museum idea. Saturday night I am working. I get off around 9 unless the longtime drinkers are there.
:)

For the length of the date - I would be offended if a guy asked me out for a 30 minute date on a weekend. It would seem like I was a time-passing activity until he got out with friends he really wanted to spend time with.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

You're asking how you can approach this girl, and you're telling everyone who suggests a way why he or she is wrong. Well, shit, then, you tell us. How can you?

Of course, the real answer is, any fucking way you like.

Look, if somebody else had the ability to take over your body for you for the day tomorrow, he or she could walk into the school, walk past this girl in the hallway and fall down violently into her and form a relationship that way. Why the hell not? Nothing matters except that you spit a couple of nervous burbling words in her direction. Or monotone self-loathing words. Or incoherent threatening words. It really doesn't matter at all. Every way is a way you CAN approach her. What you're looking for is a magical, easy, comfortable way you can approach her. One might present itself at some point or another, but you're going to be all anxious and kind of annoying until it does. As an alternative, you could just buck up and do almost anything and break the ice. If you're worried about a face-to-face, what the hell, use Facebook. If you can screw up the courage, just walk up to her and say "Germany, eh? That's a fucking different country from the one I'm from."

Anything, man, anything. You're arguing because you're not convinced, but the reason you aren't convinced is that you're scared, and that's cool. I get the playing out of the conversation in your head, I really do. And I get how much nicer it is when you've planned everything out to a certainty. If you want to know the truth, though, there's an almost perfect negative correlation between my behaving the way I felt like I wanted to (and not, e.g., the way everyone else seemed to act and the way that's being suggested in this thread) and my actual success. I can tell you that there were lots and lots of times where I took the neurotic paralysis-by-analysis approach to things with a hot girl, and guess what? Most of the time I never talked to her. The times I did were guaranteed to be disappointing, and so they were.

By contrast, this one time in college I saw a girl walking, and she was really beautiful, and she was carrying her sandals instead of wearing them, and without thinking I said "Um, I don't think shoes work when you use them like that" or something, and we had a nice little talk. And it was nice. And then I started in with the overthinking and the bullshit, and I never had a nice talk with her again. I'm just saying.

The short version is, shut up about how, because it doesn't matter. Just do anything. It doesn't have to be impressive. It doesn't have to be spectacular. She isn't going to know if you "fail" in your "mission" unless you make it really obvious, which you won't do unless you plan it like a mission. She won't know you're waiting for her if you don't want her to know - people generally don't think about other people like at all. Just navigate your ass over somewhere near her at some point, and trot something out there. Personally in high school I relied on the old tried-and-true make fun of school because ha ha ha school is lame tactic. Or the wrong fact gambit - just say something wrong and be corrected. It doesn't matter, I promise. Just talk. And then the next time you won't need an excuse.

[lobotomyboy63]

Ohhh I love the museum idea. Saturday night I am working. I get off around 9 unless the longtime drinkers are there.
:)

For the length of the date - I would be offended if a guy asked me out for a 30 minute date on a weekend. It would seem like I was a time-passing activity until he got out with friends he really wanted to spend time with.

Mmkay, so pick you up at 9:00? ;)

Yeah, I guess it depends on how it's framed. I wouldn't call it a date, exactly. Just, "Hey, want to get some ice cream?" After school that might be okay, but on a weekend, not so much.

It's funny how I can't shed my middle-aged notions. I mean, a lot of fogeys start with the "safe lunch" thing. If you don't hit it off at least you didn't invest too much in it and can get away etc. Then if both are agreeable you graduate to the "date date."

But I think you're right, Shelli. That age group probably wouldn't hesitate and would be confused why someone only wanted to spend a little time instead of a lot.

[lavenderviolet]

And I'm already friends with her on Facebook, so all I'd have to do is send a message.

Then do it. :) Personally, I think it would be easy to come across as stalkerish or creepy if you seem to be going out of your way to run into her or talk her in person, so I think using Facebook to introduce yourself properly is the way to go.
Once you've broken the ice that way, you can start trying to find excuses to talk to her in person.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Then do it. :) Personally, I think it would be easy to come across as stalkerish or creepy if you seem to be going out of your way to run into her or talk her in person, so I think using Facebook to introduce yourself properly is the way to go.
Once you've broken the ice that way, you can start trying to find excuses to talk to her in person.

Alright, I guess I'll do this tomorrow. (I have paper to frantically finish writing tonight, and she's not online, anyway.) And I'll worry about what kind of activity to do when the time comes.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Darth Sensitive]

20 year old guy checking in.

Don't drive to school for a couple days, actually take the carpool thingy home. Talk to her then.

If (and it's unlikely) it comes up, just say you caught a ride in this morning. That's the truth and not creepy.


Reasons for use if pressed (bonus points if true): low air pressure, wouldn't start, funny sound, someone else needed it, monkeys stole it, low gas, paint the wrong color, or - my favorite - couldn't find keys.

[SurrenderDorothy]

Comment on her stuff on facebook instead of sending her a message. Like her status and her pictures and stuff or maybe one of her interests.

don't expect her to respond or be disappointed if she doesn't and don't comment on every single thing she ever does. Do ask direct, easy-to-answer questions. "How are you?" probably won't work, but "you like The Jonas Brothers? me too! Which one is your favorite?" (god help you if you actually like the Jonas Brothers.) is easy to answer.

If you comment on her stuff she'll at least hear your name and get that you notice her in a positive way. And she'll probably check your facebook too, especially if she's not really sure who you are.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Actually, I kind of forgot to mention this: I have tennis practice from 2:15 to 4:00 and wouldn't be able to leave at 3:00 if I wanted to (I just happened to start driving at the same time practice started). And before you bring it up, even if I skipped practice, she has track at that same time, which I had forgotten about. I only know that because I saw her once in track uniform.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[An Gadaí]

Facebook it is then.

[Sir T-Cups]

22 year old here and this could be way late but regardless...

Personally I am fine with messaging her on facebook. As long as you don;t profess her undying love for her simply saying a "Hey I've noticed you around at school wanna hang out sometime" doesn't seem like a bad idea. As it has been said, the worst that will happen is she will say no, and even if she doesn't "get" what you're doing right away eventually she will probably just have the thought of "oh he's trying to ask me out" and leave it at that. She's not gonna openly demean you in the halls at school.

When it comes to hanging out, again we all seem to be failing at what there is to do in your small part of the world (Italy is it?), but USE facebook. She a football (soccer) fan? She like movies? Shopping? find something in that about me section and use it.

Your school have sports? If she cares (or even only goes to hang out with friends) ask her "Can we meet up the next time? I'd love to hang out with you".

I am eager to hear what happens though!

[Vox Imperatoris]

When it comes to hanging out, again we all seem to be failing at what there is to do in your small part of the world (Italy is it?), but USE facebook.

Okay, I assume you're not joking here, so this is even more hilarious. I live in the small European country known as Alabama. :D

(And now you see why there's nothing to do. ;))

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Sir T-Cups]

Okay, I assume you're not joking here, so this is even more hilarious. I live in the small European country known as Alabama. :D

(And now you see why there's nothing to do. ;))

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

Ok here is the reason I wasn't joking.....

In some thread I mentioned something about the Mediterranean being beautful, and you responded by saying "looking out my window" yes it is

So I thought that's where you were

or at least I SWEAR that happened.....

[ShelliBean]

Okay, I assume you're not joking here, so this is even more hilarious. I live in the small European country known as Alabama. :D

(And now you see why there's nothing to do. ;))

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

Oh for god's sake just tell me where you are and I'll go ask the girl out for you.

[An Gadaí]

Vox Imperatoris, run up to her and hand her a note with "Ich liebe dich" written on it.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Ok here is the reason I wasn't joking.....

In some thread I mentioned something about the Mediterranean being beautful, and you responded by saying "looking out my window" yes it is

So I thought that's where you were

or at least I SWEAR that happened.....

Never happened. :p

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Cat Fight]

Girls seem to like unicorns and babies. Maybe you can have one of your buddies wear a unicorn outfit and you can ride him up to her while dressed like a giant baby. That shouldn't e creepy.

I totally would have gone for this in high school.

[Petrobey Mavromihalis]

Ok here is the reason I wasn't joking.....

In some thread I mentioned something about the Mediterranean being beautful, and you responded by saying "looking out my window" yes it is

So I thought that's where you were

or at least I SWEAR that happened.....Errr, that was me. (And it still is beautiful, although a little blustery today).

You confused me with Vox!?

I'm twice his age, don't need to worry about dating etiquette, my name is clearly a Greek one and not a Latin epithet, and I don't sign off every post in a mildly annoying manner - so there!

Yassas,
Petrobey

PS And Vox facebook or IRL talk to her, but do something - life's too short, to coin a phrase.

PPS I really don't understand Facebook. Why would you have a friend who you've never talked to?

[lobotomyboy63]

PPS I really don't understand Facebook. Why would you have a friend who you've never talked to?

Having been in Facebook for a couple months...I still don't get it. I'm constantly getting people sending me flair, telling me I'm the nicest person on Facebook, sending me covered dishes (like a virtual potluck), and so on. What I notice though is that if you go to accept them, you often have to send same to 10 or 15 other people, which nullifies the "You're special!" message it purports to convey. I.e. "You're the nicest person" is really "You're (one of the 15) nicest people!"

Then I see them IRL and they don't really make me feel all that special. It's like when I started with the internet, getting an e-mail that said how great and unique I am---but there are 57,000 names in the address line.

Maybe OP is a virtuoso of Facebook. Maybe teens are spiders sensing the slightest tension on their web that is Facebook and have ways of divining all this. But it seems like sending a boy to do a man's job.

What if she declines the request to be friends? Is that "Ewww I know him and no thanks" or "Gee, I don't recognize this person...I'll just decline it."? Would he charge forward with plan B?

[Petrobey Mavromihalis]

What if she declines the request to be friends? Is that "Ewww I know him and no thanks" or "Gee, I don't recognize this person...I'll just decline it."? Would he charge forward with plan B?I agree with what you're saying, but what I find weird here is that he already is friends with her on Facebook: And I'm already friends with her on Facebook, so all I'd have to do is send a message.

[lobotomyboy63]

Ah, my bad. Well, they can probably see the profile, and it's "Oh look, we go to the same school!"

[Sapo]

Vox, think about this for a minute. No matter what you do, what could possibly go wrong? You are already not going out with her and with nothing in common. How can it get worse than that?

Walk up to her one day you have the afternoon completely free (make it happen, if you must) and ask her "Hey, would you like to have a coffee/ice cream/rock?". If she says no, then that's that.

I went through all my senior year in High School dreaming of this cute girl that I never spoke to. Once I started dating more seriously in Uni, I looked back at those days and could only wonder why I was so silly about the whole thing. (And then after some years, I saw her looking like an ugly cheap harlot and was glad I didn't talk to her, hah).

You cannot do worse than you are now. Do something.

[SurrenderDorothy]

Maybe OP is a virtuoso of Facebook. Maybe teens are spiders sensing the slightest tension on their web that is Facebook and have ways of divining all this.


well yeah, kind of. I'll explain it further if you want, but there are lots of newfangled social subtleties facilitated by facebook.

[42fish]

Vox Imperatoris, run up to her and hand her a note with "Ich liebe dich" written on it.

Just be careful with the handwriting. If she thinks you wrote "Ich liebe dick," things could get awkward.

[Sapo]

well yeah, kind of. I'll explain it further if you want, but there are lots of newfangled social subtleties facilitated by facebook.

You are invited!
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10803201#post10803201

[Loach]

Make sure you tell her about the shrine you made to her that is hidden in the closet. If you become friends and she finds it later it may be awkward.

[Maeglin]

All of this "Valete" shit and you don't even think to see what the Doctor Amoris has to say? Amateur!

Tu quoque, materiam longo qui quaeris amori,
Ante frequens quo sit disce puella loco.
Non ego quaerentem vento dare vela iubebo,
Nec tibi, ut invenias, longa terenda via est.
Andromedan Perseus nigris portarit ab Indis,
Raptaque sit Phrygio Graia puella viro,
Tot tibi tamque dabit formosas Roma puellas,
'Haec habet' ut dicas 'quicquid in orbe fuit.'

Read. Profit from it.

[Sir T-Cups]

Never happened. :p

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

Errr, that was me. (And it still is beautiful, although a little blustery today).

You confused me with Vox!?

I'm twice his age, don't need to worry about dating etiquette, my name is clearly a Greek one and not a Latin epithet, and I don't sign off every post in a mildly annoying manner - so there!

Yassas,
Petrobey

PS And Vox facebook or IRL talk to her, but do something - life's too short, to coin a phrase.

PPS I really don't understand Facebook. Why would you have a friend who you've never talked to?


Ok ok...let's just end all of this by a simple phrase.....

I am an idiot

[Vox Imperatoris]

Well, I'll still try to send messages over Facebook, but this weekend might not be good for any kind of activity because I'll be sedated on Friday to have an extra tooth surgically removed. It depends how I feel on Saturday; hopefully it won't be too bad.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Tom Tildrum]

... this weekend might not be good for any kind of activity because I'll be sedated on Friday to have an extra tooth surgically removed.

You have 33 teeth?

[Sapo]

Well, there is a pickup line. "Hey babe, wanna see my 33rd tooth?"

[Vox Imperatoris]

You have 33 teeth?

Yeah, apparently it's not all that uncommon. It wouldn't be a problem if it weren't going to push my other teeth around and make them crooked (it has not yet actually come in, that being the thing I'm trying to avoid).

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[The Batman]

Alright, I guess I'll do this tomorrow. (I have paper to frantically finish writing tonight, and she's not online, anyway.) And I'll worry about what kind of activity to do when the time comes.

Actually, I kind of forgot to mention this: I have tennis practice from 2:15 to 4:00 and wouldn't be able to leave at 3:00 if I wanted to (I just happened to start driving at the same time practice started). And before you bring it up, even if I skipped practice, she has track at that same time, which I had forgotten about. I only know that because I saw her once in track uniform.

Well, I'll still try to send messages over Facebook, but this weekend might not be good for any kind of activity because I'll be sedated on Friday to have an extra tooth surgically removed. It depends how I feel on Saturday; hopefully it won't be too bad.

You've only been making excuses all this time. You're going to end up regretting not asking her out, either when someone else does or she leaves for points unknown.

[interface2x]

To be fair, it might be asking a bit too much to ask out a girl you barely know for a Valentines Day date. Just sayin'. Maybe a mid-week next week?

[Vox Imperatoris]

To be fair, it might be asking a bit too much to ask out a girl you barely know for a Valentines Day date. Just sayin'. Maybe a mid-week next week?

I thought of that; I don't know what I'll do.

And I've been trying to work up the nerve to send her a message, but for the life of me, I can not think of anything to say beyond the initial "Hey, how are you?" Obviously, asking her to do anything straight after that would be unacceptable, but what else can I say? And jumping to questions like, "What kind of sports do you play? What kind of music do you listen to? What do you like to do on the weekends?" sounds like an interrogation.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[lobotomyboy63]

IIRC you said something about seeing her in a track uniform and concluding that she must be in track. If you can confirm that (school website maybe?), you could say, "Hey, good luck against Central High next week!" Or would it be team tryouts at this point? Any other activities she's in, like maybe a chorus concert next week or...?

Too rah rah? I don't know. As others have said, see if use what you find on Facebook, stuff you have in common. I agree not to make it a barrage of questions, but one or two small ones probably wouldn't hurt.

Any idea how strong her English is? I'd use simple English in writing to her if you aren't sure.

One thing I've noticed over the years: if a girl/woman is interested in giving the guy a chance, the approach can be far from perfect. OTOH if the girl/woman isn't interested, the perfect approach won't carry the day.

Meanwhile, tick tock!

[Frazzled]

See if you can find something that is written in German in your town. Make sure it's small and portable - a trinket or a pamphlet. Also important is that this come from a period of time in Germany that Germans are proud of and would talk about, nothing from WW1 or WW2. The next time you see her, go over to her and show her what you found and ask her to translate it for you. If she's friendly she will talk about it, and it gives you an opening to ask questions and have a conversation.

[Millit the Frail]

I thought of that; I don't know what I'll do.

And I've been trying to work up the nerve to send her a message, but for the life of me, I can not think of anything to say beyond the initial "Hey, how are you?" Obviously, asking her to do anything straight after that would be unacceptable, but what else can I say? And jumping to questions like, "What kind of sports do you play? What kind of music do you listen to? What do you like to do on the weekends?" sounds like an interrogation.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

I've read through this entire thread, and approximately 34 posters have given you suggestions on what to talk about next. I am a fan of "Hey, I like Blumchen, you're from Germany, what do you think of her?" and "I've never been to Germany, what's it like, how do you like it here, what's different, and what do you miss?" But any number of things will work. Start out with some small talk; talk about the freaking weather if you must, if you don't feel like questioning her right away.

This thread has a larger pattern, though. You've got a self-defeating, self-fulfilling prophecy going on here, my friend. It seems that you believe that, no matter what you do, it's probably going to be the Wrong Thing. You're intelligent, well-educated, and probably a perfectionist. You're much more afraid of failure than you are of never trying. At 16, I was the same way. I saw the dating world as yet another area where I had to earn straight As and have a perfect record. You know what, though? There isn't always one right answer in dating. Sometimes, there's absolutely nothing you can do. You might approach her in the perfect way, with the perfect pickup line, with the perfect date, and she still might turn you down. But you know what else? That's OK. There's no one standing over you, keeping score over how many rejections you've gotten. You get up and move on. You've still got 99% of the girls at your school to choose from and millions more outside. And that's the worst case scenario.

Maybe I'm all wrong about this, but I see a lot of myself at 16 in this thread (female, though), and fear of failure was a big reason why I took so few risks. Only a few years later, it all hit home--the consequences of failure in this way are so minute, and the potential payoffs of success so great. Just have some self-confidence, something to put your mind out of this certainty that you're going to fail. Because you very well might not!

Hasta la vista.....BABY,
Millit the Frail

[An Gadaí]

See if you can find something that is written in German in your town. Make sure it's small and portable - a trinket or a pamphlet. Also important is that this come from a period of time in Germany that Germans are proud of and would talk about, nothing from WW1 or WW2. The next time you see her, go over to her and show her what you found and ask her to translate it for you. If she's friendly she will talk about it, and it gives you an opening to ask questions and have a conversation.

"Hey, I've got this book called Mein Kampf, it looks like a right romp of a read, what do you make of it?"

[Tarwater]

I thought of that; I don't know what I'll do.

And I've been trying to work up the nerve to send her a message, but for the life of me, I can not think of anything to say beyond the initial "Hey, how are you?" Obviously, asking her to do anything straight after that would be unacceptable, but what else can I say? And jumping to questions like, "What kind of sports do you play? What kind of music do you listen to? What do you like to do on the weekends?" sounds like an interrogation.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

Just send her a link to this thread. This cannot not work.

[Boyo Jim]

Begin all sentences with, "I don't mean to sound creepy..."

[Loach]

"Hey, I've got this book called Mein Kampf, it looks like a right romp of a read, what do you make of it?"

[Basil Fawlty] Don't talk about the war. [/Basil Fawlty]

[NineToTheSky]

Believe me, I have nothing but sympathy for your position. I know how difficult it is to make that first move. But you have a black or white decision. Contact her or don't. Saying on Facebook 'I've seen you at school. Would you like to meet up sometime?' took me about fifteen seconds to type (I'm a very bad typist). You can do that whatever state you and your teeth are in.

You've had huge amounts of advice as to what to say to her when you see her. As I've said before, my opinion is not to over-plan it: you don't want to feel that you've got to read from a script. You'll know pretty quickly if the two of you hit it off. If you do, the conversation will naturally flow. You don't rehearse what you're going to say when you meet up with your friends, do you?

There are those in life who won't make that first move, and those that will. You've probably seen it in your school. Everything that can be said to help, support and prod you has been. It's now down to you.

[Sapo]

Begin all sentences with, "I don't mean to sound creepy..."
Creepitus soundidibus non est.

[Zeriel]

This thread is like looking at my 15-yr-old self in a mirror. The only necessary advice is go up to the chick and ask her out on a date. You have nothing to lose.

And, if you're me, once you start doing this you'll find that 60%+ of chicks will say "sure, sounds like fun", because not many people are really all that much losers in high school.

[PuddingCat]

Frankly I'm not seeing much point in any more suggestions or encouragement. Every idea is rebutted, often weakly - I can't type a message, I'm having a tooth out.

Dude - if you like this girl then take advice from any of many excellent suggestions so far. If not then stop drawing this out.

T.

[Neverender]

Ok, Vox. I don't know if this is the effect exposure to 4chan has had on me, and I don't mean to be actually insulting, but seriously, FUCKING DO IT ALREADY.

I was kinda in your situation when I started Uni, and had just split up from my ex. Make the most of being in school for getting girls, It's a hell of a lot easier than anywhere else in life!
Anyways, I met my girlfriend at Uni, and basically this is how it went;
I used to just catch her eye, throw her a smile every so often. Eventually, I found her myspace page, just said Hi etc, asked her how she was finding the course and what not. Started talking more online, and a little in person.
Keep building the conversation up, ask about her hobbies, family and stuff. Find out what she likes, then invite her out somewhere.
Really try and gauge how interested she is, then decide if you're gonna make a move, or maybe leave it 'til next time (if there will be a next time).
It took me around two months of this kinda thing before we got together, but there was the issue of a boyfriend to get around first....

Sorted. So;
Man up, and make some eye contact, and smile. Not like a leery pervy smile, don't just smirk, a nice genuine friendly smile.
If you're gonna Facebook her, the track thing is the PERFECT excuse to start a conversation you've been waiting for. Just do it already, it's basically your only choice if there's no time in the day for you to see her in person, and you're unwilling to skip anything to see her*.

Remember, a journey of a thousand miles has to start with a single step.

*Assuming you manage to get with her, will you go out of your way to see her then? I'm assuming you should be old enough by now not to be too bothered if your school goes running to your 'rents if you skip class.

Again, I'm sorry if any of this comes across as truly insulting, but it's about time you really did something about this situation before it's too late and she gets with someone.
Remember, it's Valentines day this Saturday and someone else may like her, and use V day to get in there. And succeed. So time is of the essence, or you WILL die a virgin.
Maybe.

[NineToTheSky]

Frankly I'm not seeing much point in any more suggestions or encouragement. Every idea is rebutted, often weakly - I can't type a message, I'm having a tooth out.

Dude - if you like this girl then take advice from any of many excellent suggestions so far. If not then stop drawing this out.

T.
Vox:
This is/should be/must be The. Final. Word.

[Algorithm]

Stop thinking, stop posting, stop stalling, stop making excuses.

Start talking to her. Doesn't matter how. Doesn't matter what. Just talk to her.

[Frazzled]

The reason you're so nervous is that you want to ask her out without having had any interraction. That's like trying to score a touchdown from your own 20. It can be done, but it's hard and all you see is the distance you have to go. Instead, shoot for the first down, that's only 10 yards. Just find the time to talk to her and actually try to get communication going. Once you know you can talk to her, *then* you can ask her out.
Be reasonable with what you want to accomplish and you'll be more likely to actually do it.

[lobotomyboy63]

The reason you're so nervous is that you want to ask her out without having had any interraction. That's like trying to score a touchdown from your own 20. It can be done, but it's hard and all you see is the distance you have to go. Instead, shoot for the first down, that's only 10 yards. Just find the time to talk to her and actually try to get communication going. Once you know you can talk to her, *then* you can ask her out.
Be reasonable with what you want to accomplish and you'll be more likely to actually do it.

Yeah, Vox, think of it that way. And realize that if you message her and she messages you back, that will build your confidence and make the next step easier for you.

You have her built up in your mind as this unattainable babe...I'm sure she has flaws like anybody else. And sometimes those real beauties don't get asked out much because all the guys expect to be shot down.

But if it isn't meant to be, it's better to end the agonizing IMO.

Dude, can you put on your social sciences labcoat and treat this as a learning curve moment? Even if she goes out with you, there's an excellent chance you're never going to get married to her. But there are many, many babes in the world and you'll almost certainly need the same skills at later times in your life.

FWIW, others have stated upthread "Where were you when I was 16?" and I think they may have been talking about advice I gave. :confused: Um, I was Vox. Sometimes I still am Vox. :(

But I've read some of this in books, tried to vary my approach, watched what others do, etc. I wish I was as suave (I like to pronounce it "swayve") as my ideas might imply. Anyway I delayed my own learning curve quite a bit and I hope Vox doesn't hesitate so much.

Bust a move, young squire!

[Vox Imperatoris]

The reason you're so nervous is that you want to ask her out without having had any interraction. That's like trying to score a touchdown from your own 20. It can be done, but it's hard and all you see is the distance you have to go. Instead, shoot for the first down, that's only 10 yards. Just find the time to talk to her and actually try to get communication going. Once you know you can talk to her, *then* you can ask her out.
Be reasonable with what you want to accomplish and you'll be more likely to actually do it.

I know, and that's the problem. If it were a good idea to just ask her out right off the bat, it would be a lot easier because there's really only one question to ask, and, like many people have said, she can only say yes or no. But I don't think that is a very good idea. It's a lot harder (IMO) to start an actual conversation with someone you know nothing substantial about and who knows even less about you, without being at some event or in some organization in which you might naturally have to talk to one another. That said, I promise that by the time I post again, I will have contacted her in some way.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[zweisamkeit]

I know, and that's the problem. If it were a good idea to just ask her out right off the bat, it would be a lot easier because there's really only one question to ask, and, like many people have said, she can only say yes or no. But I don't think that is a very good idea. It's a lot harder (IMO) to start an actual conversation with someone you know nothing substantial about and who knows even less about you, without being at some event or in some organization in which you might naturally have to talk to one another. That said, I promise that by the time I post again, I will have contacted her in some way.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris


Jesus God, man, you've been given how many suggestions for starting the damn conversation?

[NAF1138]

You know what, at this point...I say walk away from this one. You clearly have a block of some sort Vox. It isn't going to happen for you with this chick, go out and find a new one.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

I know, and that's the problem. If it were a good idea to just ask her out right off the bat, it would be a lot easier because there's really only one question to ask, and, like many people have said, she can only say yes or no. But I don't think that is a very good idea. It's a lot harder (IMO) to start an actual conversation with someone you know nothing substantial about and who knows even less about you, without being at some event or in some organization in which you might naturally have to talk to one another. That said, I promise that by the time I post again, I will have contacted her in some way.

Look, man, if the onslaught of advice is too much here, and you want an actionable morsel, how about this? Let's start small. How about you just comment on her latest Facebook status update or posting or whatever? Just lie about being interested in it. Christ, post her Facebook status here and I will make up some bullshit small talk for you. If you do it in sloppy German hilariously calling yourself a fish, or something, you're almost guaranteed a response, I bet.

When you get back here with the reason why the above can't possibly work, we'll move on from there.

And yeah, I know you said you already will have contacted her, but I bet you'll check the thread without posting anyway.

[Neverender]

So many excuses, are you sure you're into this girl? It's not just a cover-up for secret homosexual feelings or something?
Damn christ man, get a move on and do something!

[Cat Fight]

It's a lot harder (IMO) to start an actual conversation with someone you know nothing substantial about and who knows even less about you

So why do you like her at all? Her Facebook albums?

[Vox Imperatoris]

Alright, for better or worse, I've gone ahead and sent a basic, "Hi, how are you" type message. No response as yet, but I'm just telling you so you don't rant at me all night. ;)

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[lobotomyboy63]

^5!

FWIW, IE has crapped out on my TWICE tonight. Both times I had logged into Facebook and was catching up on some stuff when it seized up.

[Frazzled]

Did she write you back yet?

[Vox Imperatoris]

Okay...I've sent two messages—no response. I don't know if she just doesn't look at the Facebook chat bar or what, but it's very weird. (And no, I didn't send anything that would really creep her out. ;)) I obviously don't want to send any more, since that would seem a bit desperate, and I'm not sure how exactly one would bring that up in a face-to-face conversation without sounding stalker-ish. What should I do? I guess I could use the actual Facebook messaging system instead (think email vs. IM), but the third message in a row? It would seem quite strange if I were on the receiving end.

Maybe the best thing to do would just be to wait, since I can't think of any serious reason (as in, I'm not treated like a social outcast and am, in my opinion, fairly attractive, although not God's gift to womankind) why she would be deliberately ignoring a basic, "Hi, how are you?" type message.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[lobotomyboy63]

Keep the OCD in check.

Avoid coming off like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0PUrNwvvBk&feature=related

[Vox Imperatoris]

Keep the OCD in check.

Avoid coming off like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0PUrNwvvBk&feature=related

That's my intention. :p

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Sir T-Cups]

At least to me so far so good Vox!

I totally agree with keeping it low for a while cuz any more messages would end up with the "stalker" vibe.

Still try to weasel your way into running in to her sometime....but obviously really subtly since now she knows you have messaged her

[Jragon]

At least to me so far so good Vox!

I totally agree with keeping it low for a while cuz any more messages would end up with the "stalker" vibe.

Still try to weasel your way into running in to her sometime....but obviously really subtly since now she knows you have messaged her

I think he actually gave himself the PERFECT opening here. All he has to do is go up to her next time her sees her and say "Oh, hey, I messaged you on Facebook a few days ago and you didn't respond. Were you busy?"

My bet is the response he'll get is something along the lines of "Oh, that was you? I didn't know who you were so I ignored it as some spam or something!" Which will open a few doors as far as communication goes.

[lobotomyboy63]

Props again for doing something rather than waiting for a miracle to occur. The first step is the hardest.

Like I said earlier, I'm a lot older than you and I didn't grow up in your area. It could be that my opinion isn't valid, but I'll state it and let you decide what fits and what doesn't. I'll weigh in here (with one foot off the scale).

I think girls/women are looking for at least two things: courage and confidence. If this girl is an at bat, then messanging her via Facebook is a weak swing. You're better off, IMO, striking out with a strong swing. After all, you won't miss the ball every time and when you do connect, mmboy!

She may reply yet, but if she doesn't, you're not sure what it means. If she were my (imaginary) daughter, I'd be glad that she wasn't too responsive to an electronic communication.

To illustrate, there was a girl I once dated. I was a freshman (no idle descriptor there) in high school. My friend drove me to her house, we honked, and she didn't emerge. Honked again. Nothing. We went up and knocked and her mom answered, informing me that if I wanted to see her daughter, I could come to their door because she wasn't going to come running when the horn honked.

I wasn't trying to be rude, but I was inexperienced. I understood what she meant, even then. If a young man is legitimately interested in the daughter, he won't mind meeting the parent. Old-fashioned? No, good sense. Lesson learned; I never did that again.

Over in the Facebook thread, IIRC, someone commented that he joined because his daughter wanted to join and his condition was that he be her "friend" so that he could keep an eye on her. Your communication with her may not be as private as you think.

With her being European, I suspect she's more mature about these things than her American counterparts. E.g. as I understand it, there's really no drinking age over there---they expect their kids to be more mature. If she's 16, think of her as being 21.

I think you should stop with the Facebook and go to the next phase, which requires face-to-face.

[Vox Imperatoris]

I think he actually gave himself the PERFECT opening here. All he has to do is go up to her next time her sees her and say "Oh, hey, I messaged you on Facebook a few days ago and you didn't respond. Were you busy?"

Yeah, but it could also come off as creepy if done too soon or too fervently. Even if not though, if she didn't see the messages, it seems kind of silly to say, "Oh, I sent you a message on Facebook the other day." "What about?" "Just saying hi," when you're already saying hi by doing that. :) Note (to people who have accused me of this before in the thread) that I am not "shooting this down" unequivocally, just point out some minor objections. (In fact, as I type it, it sounds less ridiculous than it did in my head.)

Also, when I'm nervous talking person-to-person, I tend to have a hard time thinking on my feet—I get that "tip-of-the-tongue syndrome" a lot. Which of course only serves to make me less confident about speaking person-to-person, and I obviously just have to get over it, but still.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Frazzled]

If it were a good idea to just ask her out right off the bat, it would be a lot easier because there's really only one question to ask, and, like many people have said, she can only say yes or no. But I don't think that is a very good idea.

I want to respond to this post because it leads in to my last piece of advice for you with respect to this girl.

You are completely correct with this statement. You *can't* just walk up to a girl and say "hey, you're cute! Do you want to go out Saturday night?" Sometimes the boldness works (if you're Brad Pitt) but usually the person doing the asking will be seen as a socially awkward creep. If you want to ask somebody out there is a bit of a social dance that must be performed first.

Step 1: Small talk. When a girl stands with an open posture, makes eye contact, and smiles at you she is letting you know she is open to small talk. You don't need to fret about starting the conversation, just pick out something around you and comment on it. As an example, when I was at Starbucks this morning I saw a cute woman drinking coffee through a straw. Making small talk with her about why she would drink coffee that way was a nice distraction while I was waiting for my coffee.

Step 2: Basic Conversation. Small talk shouldn't last long and if you are going to keep talking one of you will bring up a subject with a little more substance. You can tell when you are in this step if you are talking easily, but guarding personal information. If you want to move conversation forward you can offer your opinion on something you are talking about. If she offers her opinion as well then you can move to step 3. If not, just keep the conversation neutral.

Step 3: Personal Conversation. Similar to step 2 but filled with more personal details. You both begin to share opinions, likes, and dislikes. You will tell personal stories and anecdotes and the conversation will take on a natural flow as the two of you become comfortable with one another. If she has an SO she will usually mention him now to subtly let you know that she doesn't want to move to step 4. If you only make it to this step you can probably swing a friendship out of it. Even if she's not available, she has friends that might be.

Step 4: Flirting. Up to this point everything is fairly simple and friendly. Once you begin to flirt then things get complicated. The trick in this step is to suggest interest without flat out saying it. There are a lot of subtle clues to look for that I don't want to go into at this point but there are countless threads out there dealing with this subject! Like most guys, I can be a bit dense so if you are a girl and flirting with me, you'd better make your clues noticable! I find this step to be a lot easier when both parties have had a couple of drinks :-)

If you flirt with her, and she flirts back then you are free to ask her for her phone number and ask her out on a date. But if she shuts you down during any of the previous steps then the best thing to do is just bow out and move on to the next girl because this one is clearly not interested. If you persist, then you are creepy.

So my best advice to you is to say congratulations for contacting her! The more you start conversations, the easier it becomes to do so. If this one doesn't respond to you then nothing you say or do will change her mind. Just keep your eyes open for the next girl out there who has an open posture, makes eye contact with you, and smiles - then walk over to her and chat.

[Algorithm]

Also, when I'm nervous talking person-to-person, I tend to have a hard time thinking on my feet—I get that "tip-of-the-tongue syndrome" a lot. Which of course only serves to make me less confident about speaking person-to-person, and I obviously just have to get over it, but still.

Learn by doing. Go talk to her, be awkward. Next time, it'll be a little less. A little less after that. And so it goes.

You can practice elsewhere. Try making conversation with random people. Be friendly, funny, casual. Practice. The more time you spend not practicing, the more time you waste sucking at it. Go practice.

[Tom Tildrum]

Okay...I've sent two messages—no response. I don't know if she just doesn't look at the Facebook chat bar or what, but it's very weird. (And no, I didn't send anything that would really creep her out. ;))

You're sure you didn't mention Poland?

You may have to talk to her in person now.

[Vox Imperatoris]

You're sure you didn't mention Poland?

Nah, all I did was promise her the Sudetenland for Valentine's Day. It didn't seem like too big of a present. :D

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Jragon]

So Vox, while your epic tale is on hold mind if I ask something here really fast? Don't want to start ANOTHER thread and this one has some good advice, I promise I won't completely hijack your thread, everyone, focus on Vox when he has something to say!

There's a girl in my Japanese class that I want to ask out, I'm having a little bit of trouble with the approach. I've talked to her a few times and we certainly have a bit in common, and she seems friendly, not just humoring me in conversations. I do have a couple roadblocks though, I don't know her first name (because we refer to each other as <Last name>-san in class, I only know one person's first name). I'm "kinda sorta" in the same group of friends as her. Meaning I talk to them and leave class with them but haven't had an excuse to actually do anything with them yet (most of us met in that class). I also don't know if she has a current SO. Anyway, that's just background to help bring everyone up to speed.

My issues with the approach are basically my window for talking to her. I can talk to her before class, but talking at length is difficult, and I imagine getting her (or anyone) into the window of a private conversation would be pretty tough. I could wait outside the door for her around when she usually arrives (I'm usually present a good 20 minutes before her), but that might come off as odd. If I take this approach I was thinking of doing it tomorrow.

My other option is every Tuesday I don't have class immediately after and she has a 30 minute wait until her next class. Last Tuesday we walked together, we're the only ones that go that direction that day AND I can just hang out with her until her class starts. This gives me a good conversation window to figure out things like availability and her first name (I do imagine it would be kinda tacky to ask "Would you go out with me? Oh, by the way, what's your first name?") and then I can ask before I leave.

I'm thinking the second one would be best, but I thought I'd ask everyone's opinion. The first one has a couple advantages in that it's short and sweet and I have less time to cop-out, and that if she says no Valentines Day is Saturday and I can just pass it off as "oh, okay, Valentines Day was coming up and I just wanted to see if you were interested" and drop it. The second one is nice because I can steamroll all the bugs out and the private conversation will evolve naturally, I don't have to pull her away from anything to do it, but it may come off as weird if I spend 30 minutes with her and ask her out, if she says no she may just think I was just being nice to get a date, which is absolutely not true*, either way she's really cool from my sporadic conversations with her and I want to be her friend if she's not interested, which I know is no guarantee of either way but I don't want to give the "buttering her up for a single purpose" impression.

*Well, okay, before anyone calls me out on this, yes the general purpose of the conversation is to ask her out, but I'm also interested in just hanging out with her, it's not the SOLE purpose and don't want to send the wrong signals if she's not interested.

[Vox Imperatoris]

I know how you feel, except without the walking together with 30 minutes of free time. :p I say you should definitely pick Door #2.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Lamia]

My issues with the approach are basically my window for talking to her. I can talk to her before class, but talking at length is difficult, and I imagine getting her (or anyone) into the window of a private conversation would be pretty tough. I could wait outside the door for her around when she usually arrives (I'm usually present a good 20 minutes before her), but that might come off as odd. If I take this approach I was thinking of doing it tomorrow.

My other option is every Tuesday I don't have class immediately after and she has a 30 minute wait until her next class. Last Tuesday we walked together, we're the only ones that go that direction that day AND I can just hang out with her until her class starts. This gives me a good conversation window to figure out things like availability and her first name (I do imagine it would be kinda tacky to ask "Would you go out with me? Oh, by the way, what's your first name?") and then I can ask before I leave.This one shouldn't be too complicated. You know the girl somewhat already and she seems to enjoy your company.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that there is one "right" way to approach her. (Vox seems to be falling into that trap as well.) You can ask someone out any number of ways, and it doesn't really matter whether you talk to her before or after class. You could even do BOTH!

Don't worry about asking for her first name, you have a good excuse and she may not know your first name either. This is a decent conversational opening, in fact. The next time you see her, greet her with a friendly "Hi Lastname-san! It's funny, I realized I always call you Lastname-san, I don't even know what your first name is. What do people call you outside Japanese class?"

She'll tell you her name, you can tell her yours, and make whatever smalltalk you like. If you're feeling good, go ahead and ask her if she wants to go get coffee or whatever with you this weekend. Otherwise wait until you have more time on Tuesday, but don't put it off indefinitely. Don't worry about having the perfect line. I think "Hey Firstname, now that we're on a first name basis, do you wanna go [whatever] with me [whenever]?" would be good, but say whatever you want. The point is to say SOMETHING. I do recommend having a specific place/time in mind, though. If she's interested in YOU then you can always arrange to go somewhere else or pick another time if your first suggestion won't work for her.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Okay, I won't be at school tomorrow, and Monday is President's Day, a school holiday (well, actually, a teacher workday), so a face-to-face meeting isn't going to happen until Tuesday at the very earliest. And she shows no signs of having received the chat messages. However, I just thought of something: Facebook is now showing an option to give a "Valentine's Day gift" on everyone's profile page, that consists of (I think) some choice of "gift" and a written note, and I don't think they're supposed to be limited to the romantic. What do you think about a friendly note?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[Jragon]

Okay, I won't be at school tomorrow, and Monday is President's Day, a school holiday (well, actually, a teacher workday), so a face-to-face meeting isn't going to happen until Tuesday at the very earliest. And she shows no signs of having received the chat messages. However, I just thought of something: Facebook is now showing an option to give a "Valentine's Day gift" on everyone's profile page, that consists of (I think) some choice of "gift" and a written note, and I don't think they're supposed to be limited to the romantic. What do you think about a friendly note?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

Ehhh... I wouldn't go there personally, but wait for everyone else. It seems kind of sudden, especially since she doesn't really know you. For me at least "random message" would be okay "unexpected Valentine on facebook" would strike me as "umm... this is kinda creepy." Even though it's non-romantic the connotation of a Valentine suggests you should at least be on speaking terms.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Ehhh... I wouldn't go there personally, but wait for everyone else. It seems kind of sudden, especially since she doesn't really know you. For me at least "random message" would be okay "unexpected Valentine on facebook" would strike me as "umm... this is kinda creepy." Even though it's non-romantic the connotation of a Valentine suggests you should at least be on speaking terms.

This was my initially feeling as well, but I just thought I'd put it out there in case I was being too cautious. And I'm afraid the thread might have gotten so long that people have stopped checking it. :)

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[firstname]

Why not ask her to help you learn German? I realize this isn't the best solution, but it could be done over facebook or similar, and could lead to you being able to set up coffee or something to practice speaking. This is the best i can come up with from what you've said about not having lunch, classes or extracurricular activities with her.

[Vox Imperatoris]

Why not ask her to help you learn German? I realize this isn't the best solution, but it could be done over facebook or similar, and could lead to you being able to set up coffee or something to practice speaking. This is the best i can come up with from what you've said about not having lunch, classes or extracurricular activities with her.

I think asking someone to help you learn a foreign language (unless you're paying them) requires at least minimal prior contact without it being quite strange, so I don't think this would be a good idea. The only problem of not having any activities together is that there's not a time where we'd naturally be in the same room together and have a pre-made chance to talk, not that it would impossible to see her at all if we did know each other.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[lobotomyboy63]

Okay, I won't be at school tomorrow, and Monday is President's Day, a school holiday (well, actually, a teacher workday), so a face-to-face meeting isn't going to happen until Tuesday at the very earliest. And she shows no signs of having received the chat messages. However, I just thought of something: Facebook is now showing an option to give a "Valentine's Day gift" on everyone's profile page, that consists of (I think) some choice of "gift" and a written note, and I don't think they're supposed to be limited to the romantic. What do you think about a friendly note?

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

Ehhh... I wouldn't go there personally, but wait for everyone else. It seems kind of sudden, especially since she doesn't really know you. For me at least "random message" would be okay "unexpected Valentine on facebook" would strike me as "umm... this is kinda creepy." Even though it's non-romantic the connotation of a Valentine suggests you should at least be on speaking terms.

I agree that the unexpected valentine is too risky. You can't always convey the "just being friendly" vibe on the net, for one thing. She hasn't replied to your messages, for another. Even if she had, playing the valentine angle would still be too much too soon IMO.

In order to avoid appearing to be too needy/anxious/stalkerish, one guideline that I've used is "one-for-one." If you email her and she waits a day to reply, then wait about a day to reply to her. Whether it's time, money, or anything else you don't want to be the one who's always "carrying" the relationship. Ultimately it will come back to haunt you.

A thread about "Life Lessons You've Learned While Dating" also has some food for thought.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=506080

SHAKES posted in that thread: The one who cares less about the relationship holds all the power.

My take on that: for many people, if it's "free," then it must be "worthless." E.g. if you won a million dollars, you might piss your way through it pretty quickly; not so if you worked hard and earned a million dollars. You need to resist the impulse to do way more than your share. If she doesn't feel that she put in some work to get you, doing more and more for her will make her appreciate you less and less in the long term.

Wait till next week.

[Frazzled]

You have already tried to get in touch with her through Facebook and she ignored you. I'm sorry to say this but it is becoming clear that she has no interest in you. If you do anything else through Facebook you will come off as creepy.

The bad thing about trying to flirt through Facebook is you are never 100% certain that she actually got the message you sent to her. With that in mind, the next time you see her you should try to make eye contact (but don't stare) and give her a nice smile. If she returns it, go talk to her in person. If she looks away - well - at least you know for certain not to waste any more time trying to get her to notice you.

In any case - do not try to communicate with her through Facebook again until you talk to her in person.

[Jragon]

I'm doing better (sorry Vox), I didn't get her first name yet, but we worked together in class today and had a pretty good time. I'm not the person she usually works with and I don't sit right next to her (her usual friends do) which means she deliberately came to me specifically so I know she at feel favorably towards me. I think I'll do the asking on Tuesday, but I'm going to try and get some info (like name) Monday.

[Jragon]

she at feel favorably towards me.

English of I good is.

she at least feels favorably (damn database errors preventing my edit!).

[The Batman]

You have already tried to get in touch with her through Facebook and she ignored you. I'm sorry to say this but it is becoming clear that she has no interest in you. If you do anything else through Facebook you will come off as creepy.

The bad thing about trying to flirt through Facebook is you are never 100% certain that she actually got the message you sent to her. With that in mind, the next time you see her you should try to make eye contact (but don't stare) and give her a nice smile. If she returns it, go talk to her in person. If she looks away - well - at least you know for certain not to waste any more time trying to get her to notice you.

In any case - do not try to communicate with her through Facebook again until you talk to her in person.

Totally.
I always think Facebook, et al. are bad ways to start communicating with someone you are interested in. You never know if they are not interested or simply missed the message or if they misunderstood your intentions as simple playful flirting. "Hey how are you" messages are the most typical messages sent, she probably has dozens of similar messages like that.

If you still want to keep on trucking then do the obvious thing and talk to her in person.

[Neverender]

Well lads it's been a week, how have things gone?

[lobotomyboy63]

"And if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass a-hoppin'!" Nathan Arizona.

Uh, bump.

[Backcountry Medic]

It kinda looks like this thread is approaching life support status, but I had a novel idea that I don't think anyone has mentioned. It might not be the most responsible, but I personally guarantee success with this method, and I was probably in about the same awkward stage as you are now in high school.

I was an early birthday for my grade (early sept) so I was driving before most of the people in my class were. We had an open campus for lunch and I wasn't ever one to assume that all of the learning I was supposed to be doing there was taught in the classes and books. Once I started driving I used take my friends and we would go out to lunch at some nearby restaurant. One day a couple of girls asked us if we would care to take them with us to lunch, since they couldn't drive yet. Bingo- It was as simple as a lightbulb going off over my head. I just started asking girls if they would like a ride off campus for lunch. It was easy- everyone wanted to go off campus for lunch, it was short and sweet- enough time to talk a little but not a full on 'date', it typically didn't cost me anything and even if I took out a girl or two I had no interest in, it made me seem a little more approachable to other women and so on. Word of mouth and all.

"But wait!" you say "we don't have the same lunch period". Here's where the irresponsibility comes in. After about a month of taking out girls on my lunch, I thought I had franchise potential and started branching into the other two lunch periods, sometimes taking two or three lunches a day. You can't get away with it every day, but a resourceful ditcher can slide out once or twice a week without too much trouble. Even if you only pull it once, fake a Dr's appt, take her to lunch, see where it goes from there.

After my sophomore year, this didn't have quite the pull, since pretty much everyone could drive, but you can always try it out on the younger girls.

More general advice would be to keep your eyes open while you try to separate one girl from the herd. I can't count of the number of times I've been chasing a reluctant "7" and actually come out with an eager "9" who noticed my advances and was wishing that they were directed towards her. Women tend to be fiercely competitive with attracting men, and the mere act of flirting or initial dating sets off a frenzy like a blood bank bus crashing into the piranha tank at SeaWorld.

[Tom Tildrum]

...I just started asking girls if they would like a ride off campus for lunch.

I think the driving rules may have gotten a lot stricter since we were young, about teenagers driving with other teenagers.

[Jragon]

I think the driving rules may have gotten a lot stricter since we were young, about teenagers driving with other teenagers.

Not really, well as far as legality goes, it's campus security that's tighter. Good luck getting off campus, especially if you're not 18 (and even then, your parents need to sign a waiver before they allow you to sign yourself out). And then that applies for EVERYONE leaving, if you take 3 girls to lunch, they all better be 18, have the waiver signed, and be able to make up a legitimate sounding excuse for an off-campus pass from the office otherwise you ain't getting out of the parking lot, let alone going somewhere for lunch.

[zweisamkeit]

Not really, well as far as legality goes, it's campus security that's tighter. Good luck getting off campus, especially if you're not 18 (and even then, your parents need to sign a waiver before they allow you to sign yourself out). And then that applies for EVERYONE leaving, if you take 3 girls to lunch, they all better be 18, have the waiver signed, and be able to make up a legitimate sounding excuse for an off-campus pass from the office otherwise you ain't getting out of the parking lot, let alone going somewhere for lunch.

Or state laws on driving. Michigan has really gotten strict on teen drivers in the past 13 years or so. Here's the graduated license program (http://www.drivinglaws.org/teen/michigant.php) Michigan has. You need to get your permit (Level 1 license) and drive with a parent/guardian for 50 documented hours before you can get your Level 2 license (where the youngest you can be is 16). At that time, you still cannot drive without someone 21 years old or older with you in the car at all times (minus driving to and from work).

Even if campus rules were relaxed, you still couldn't just drive a gaggle of fellow high schoolers around until you turn 17.

[Jragon]

Or state laws on driving. Michigan has really gotten strict on teen drivers in the past 13 years or so. Here's the graduated license program (http://www.drivinglaws.org/teen/michigant.php) Michigan has. You need to get your permit (Level 1 license) and drive with a parent/guardian for 50 documented hours before you can get your Level 2 license (where the youngest you can be is 16). At that time, you still cannot drive without someone 21 years old or older with you in the car at all times (minus driving to and from work).

Even if campus rules were relaxed, you still couldn't just drive a gaggle of fellow high schoolers around until you turn 17.

I thought that was the way it always was, it's more of a "learners permit" issue though, isn't it? I thought that part always applied, I guess I'm just colored by being in high school *looks at watch* a year ago and thinking that part was implied. Unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean it simply sounds like routine "you need x hours at y age to get a general lisence" thing.

[zweisamkeit]

I thought that was the way it always was, it's more of a "learners permit" issue though, isn't it? I thought that part always applied, I guess I'm just colored by being in high school *looks at watch* a year ago and thinking that part was implied. Unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean it simply sounds like routine "you need x hours at y age to get a general lisence" thing.

No, the key I'm talking about is that even after you get your license after the permit, you cannot have just fellow teenagers in the car right away. You have to have an over-21 adult in your car with you.

[Jragon]

Hmm, on review, I totally forgot I posted about my issue/person/problem/thing, I'll give a quick update.

I'm not sure I'm going to ask her out, I walked into class on one day (I never got to be with her at length on any Tuesday, she had less time than I thought she said) to her saying something like "he likes me" in a somewhat excited tone. Granted this could be about any damn thing in the world (especially since her conversation quickly drifted onto her brother and carrying around cookies for him, so maybe the conversation was there all along), but I'm thinking it's a somewhat informed decision to just write this one off unless I drop the fairly transparent "I'm sure you and your boyfriend..." line.

It's almost creepy how similar we are though, and this isn't an anima projection here, I mean to the point where if someone didn't know both our personalities at least somewhat independently they'd think one of us was copying the other. We have the strangest off the wall conversations of the type I haven't had in years, my favorite type, the kind that leaves everyone who doesn't think on the same frequency my brain does going :confused:. (Think 1 part old Skald the Rhymer evil overlord stuff, 1 part fantasy books, 2 parts ADD hyperactive OCD chipmunk). I did give her a nice random present (well, half gave, we had a quarter of a conversation that were basically ways of saying "can I have that" "sure you can" without actually getting to the point, then two of the other 3 quarters were an over-excited rant about how awesome the gift was by her), a pencil with tons of features, and by features I mean it opens, clicks closed, has a retractable eraser and is overall awesome. It's the only type of pencil either of us use now because we're both so amused by it.

I did find out her name today (well, officially, she said it in a conversation once and I logged it in memory, but it was so offhand she probably forgot she said it and told me of her own volition). Long story how THAT conversation came to pass though.

Either way I have a really awesome friend I can connect with finally.

No, the key I'm talking about is that even after you get your license after the permit, you cannot have just fellow teenagers in the car right away. You have to have an over-21 adult in your car with you.

Until 17 though, right? That's just a delay of one year, junior instead of sophomore year, so it's not really THAT much tighter, at least that's how I read the "class 2" thing, but I believe you, you live there, not me.

[Neverender]

I'm not sure if this in inappropriate or not; but I'm bumping this thread, I just remembered about it when searching my past posts, and i would like to know how the guys got on.

If you'd like to know this too - bump! That way the guys may see it and drop in :)

[jakesteele]

Write her an anonymous haiku in German.

[NineToTheSky]

I'm not sure if this in inappropriate or not; but I'm bumping this thread, I just remembered about it when searching my past posts, and i would like to know how the guys got on.

If you'd like to know this too - bump! That way the guys may see it and drop in :)

Yes, I'm curious too.

[JerseyFrank]

Hi Frank, it's your future-self here coming to give you some advice.

You want to know the best aphrodisiac you have on your side? Right, it's not the looks... you're no Adonis. No, it's not your intelligence. Sure, you're smart, but that isn't going to get you that first date. It's confidence. Whoa, hang on there tiger; you've got it all wrong. That thing you're doing right there... yeah, that. That's arrogance. You need to tone that down and just concentrate on confidence.

Look, here's the difference. If you go up to her "knowing" that she'll say yes, it's arrogance. If you go up to her and you're too shy, that's insecurity. What you need to do is ask her out somewhere neutral, but do it with the *confidence* that if she turns you down, you will be disappointed but not heart-broken.

Don't build it up in your head. Just go over to her - even if it's not convenient. No, I take that back... ESPECIALLY if it's not convenient. Say to her, "Hi Inga! I'm Frank. I'd like to get to know you. Can we get some coffee after class today?" Oh, and do this publically. No, don't put out a big sign or make a big show of it. Just don't make it seem like you're waiting for the right moment. Ask her the next time you see her. The more of her friends around, the better.

There are a few key elements here.
#1. You stated your intention. Don't leave it up to her to assume. Don't say "I was wondering if you wanted to...". Don't say that because she doesn't. And it's weak. Right, she doesn't want to know you better; at least not as much as you want to. If she did, she'd have found her way over to you by now. Your goal is to tell her what you want and how she can accomplish that. Once you're on your date, you can do the chit-chat and feel-out if she's enjoying herself and wants to get to know you more.

#2. You've put the ball in her court. You know what's harder than the fear of rejection? Actually rejecting someone. You're probably still jittery about asking her in front of other people. But that pressure is working to your advantage. Yes, there's a decent chance she'll say no. Probably a better chance that she'll say no than if you asked her privately! But when will you ever get the chance to ask her privately? And if she's too worried about the opinion of her peers, she's probably too shallow or immature for your tastes anyway. But here's the best part... if she says yes, you've got a date... and if she says no, you've got the respect and adoration of the 2 dozen other ladies in the area. That sounds crazy, but trust me, it works. Someone in that group will be interested in you simply because you had the stones to risk it all like that. If Inga says no, you'll be beating them back with a stick. Trust me.

#3. You've put a deadline on the offer. She can't weasel out and say, "I dunno... maybe later," and leave you hanging. As for the "confidence" factor, you've basically said, "Hey, it's now or never." But still, be somewhat flexible. If she says, "Not today," immediately suggest another time. If she refuses that time, ask her if there's a time in the next week that is good for her. If she says no, say something dismissive without completely closing the door. "Perhaps another time then. It was nice to meet you. See you around." And just walk away. Don't beg. Don't suggest a million different times. You've gotten your answer and you've demonstrated to Inga and everyone else that you're totally cool with the rejection and that it makes little difference to you.

Frank, follow these rules and you'll be a hit. Trust me.